SHARING SACRED LAND | SULAIMAN KHATIB

Sulaiman Khatib grew up in a small Palestinian village, on the outskirts of Jerusalem.  At the age of 14, he and his friend received long jail sentences for stabbing and injuring two Israeli soldiers. In the jail library he studied the history of the Jewish people, and began to understand that there were equally compelling narratives to both sides. A reconstructed perspective of non-violence, further impacted  by hunger strikes in jail,  seeded his future dedication to peace and reconciliation work. In 2005 he cofounded the Combatants for Peace, an organization created by Palestinian and Israeli former fighters and victims of violence. Combatants for Peace is modeled on humanistic values of empathy, forgiveness and mutual respect for a future of peace on the sacred homeland that both Palestinians and Israelis love, fighting not each other - but the common enemy of hatred and fear. Nominated twice for the Nobel Peace Prize, his transformative journey and visionary optimism is rooted in a deep love of the land, ancient wisdom, and spirituality.

Transcript

SHARING SACRED LAND | SULAIMAN KHATIB
 S3 EPISODE 1 : TRANSCRIPT   January 25, 2023

[00:00:04] Souli: We come from different backgrounds and different narratives. So, we try to create this new narrative, if you wish. A new situation where narratives are legitimized and humanized. It's not about us personally, really. It's about the homeland and the people here and the kids that grew up in this land. People ask us, what did you achieve? I think when I look back, I feel proud that we are able to mobilize thousands of people. It's a model of hope for people when they see this cooperation happening. The idea of us or them is the past, and it's not realistic. Our goal is to create freedom and dignity for everyone. We try to mobilize people to meet each other and also to oppose their injust system in the place here, basically. I have to say in the deeper sense, this is in the soul, in the core. It's really to shift the consciousness here for the common good of both people that lives here.

[00:01:07] Nina: I'm Nina Friedman, and this is Whereing. Whereing explores where we are. It is dedicated to those who believe in the inherent right of belonging and all the ways we feel we belong, and connect to ourselves, to each other and the spaces that hold the stories where all of this comes alive... where each experience of belonging is a work of art created by chance or by design. Dare I ask, is belonging where you are, not what matters most? Whereing is the spatial story. Welcome.

[00:01:50] Sulaiman Khatib grew up in a Palestinian village on the outskirts of Jerusalem. At the age of 14, he and his friend received long jail sentences for stabbing and injuring two Israeli soldiers. In the jail library he studied the history of the Jewish people and began to understand that there were equally compelling narratives to both sides. He also learned the effects of nonviolence through hunger strikes. On his release from jail, he dedicated himself to peace and reconciliation work. In 2005, he co-founded The Combatants for Peace, an organization created by Palestinian and Israeli former fighters and victims of violence. Combatants for Peace is modeled on humanistic values of empathy, forgiveness, and mutual respect for a future of peace on the homeland that both Palestinians and Israelis love, fighting not each other, but the common enemy of hatred and fear. He has been nominated twice for the Nobel Peace Prize. A recent documentary called 'Disturbing the Peace' features Sulaiman as well as well as six other Combatants for Peace in their personal transformations from violence to nonviolence. The film has won awards across the world. Souliman's story is also now told in the book, 'In This Place Together', written with the help of Jewish American writer- editor Penina Eilberg Schwartz, who he originally met at the home of her mother, Rabbi Amy Eilberg. I am honored to share my conversation with this very special person.

[00:03:35] The background music that you will hear is Sulaiman playing the flute against the echo of the desert mountains. 

[00:03:42] Souli, welcome. 

[00:03:43] Souli: Thanks Nina, for having me here, really. It's an honor. 

[00:03:46] Nina: It's my pleasure. Do you want me to call you Souli or Sulaiman? 

[00:03:49] Souli: Either. You can also go in between, whatever you feel. 

[00:03:52] Nina: Okay. Where are you right now? 

[00:03:54] Souli: Ramallah. That's where I live. 

[00:03:56] Nina: Ramallah. So, I want to start at the beginning. I've read about and also listened to you talk about Hizma, the village where you grew up. And Yeah. When I was reading, I could feel the warmth that you describe, this very, very beautiful connection with the land. It was a whole world into itself that you really understood. Mm-hmm. Would you be able to describe this place of your childhood and that time? 

[00:04:25] Souli: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Nina. Yeah. This subject is dear to my heart, so I'm really glad you are touching this subject, belonging. It's very deep question. I believe this question is central in our lives. A little village, is basically a smaller community. Everybody knows everybody and people are connected in different ways, as families, neighbors. Also to mention, I come from the tribal system.

[00:04:55] Nina: Mm-hmm. 

[00:04:56] Souli: It's not individual. It's a common community type of life. So, basically we are part of this mosaic, and in the wider context, I would say back in the days it would be even included the whole mosaic of the environment, the nature, agriculture, animals. I would say in my generation, I'm 50 years old, and it's changing, obviously. You know, in the family, the sheep that they own is part of the family. That's how I grew up. The water also, because the limited resources, how people in that time, in this community, in the countryside of Jerusalem, let's say in that village, treated water and the land and the sand and the stones and everything. So, there is really a whole life around it. Of course when I was a child, I didn't understand this intellectually, obviously. And it's not even an intellectual conversation about this. It's more like a feeling and spirit. I feel like my connection to that place and to the folklore and inherited tradition and to the ancient wisdom that carries through our moms and ancestors. It's going through you without understanding intellectually. People used to be very connected to the land, to the nature. For example, they have to predict by natural ways when it's gonna be raining. They have names for different faces of the moon, different faces of the sun. My aunt, she's 90 years old, she actually still knows this, and I'm always her surprised how she would know that the moon tonight will come, for example, late, not early. So, this is really ancient wisdom. I don't know it well, but for my generation, it brings a lot of connection, and for example, olive harvest season would be a whole celebration of the families. A bunch of families, seven families, will make a schedule to work together. So, they started with one family, and then go to the next family and so on. It's community work. It was never individual work. There was a lot of exchange. Some families have more olive trees. They will give to the one that don't have olive oil or olives, and they will get in return some I dunno, if they have chicken or eggs or some other needs. Basically, what some communities are trying to do around the world now. This exists here; it's not strange, and it was developed naturally. Definitely it changed a lot now. But, I feel very connected to this. I travelled a lot. I became more international and modern. I live in a city, but still, I play the flute. It remind me of my childhood and the songs that our moms and the elder women, they will sing and elder men and the celebration. Things change, obviously. But, this really goes to every aspect of the cultural, economic, social life. 

[00:07:39] Nina: All the family rituals and the rituals of the land. 

[00:07:42] Souli: Yeah. And, I would say I come from a Muslim family.

[00:07:45] Nina: Are you religious, or practicing? 

[00:07:48] Souli: No, I'm not practicing religion. I'm more spiritual, I would say, connected to the land, but my mom's generation religion is more connected to the nature. She fasted through the year, a lot of days and nights connected to the moon, different practicing that's not necessarily Islamic or Judaism or Christianity. I believe it's pre-Abrahamic practices that comes from indigenous culture here. That goes the same to the dresses, what we call tatris embroidery. Every area used to have their own colors and drawing with the dress. Handmade. My mom still have one. It's called the mountain of Jerusalem. 

[00:08:23] Nina: You mean the designs? 

[00:08:25] Souli: The designs. The same goes for many other things. So, there's a rich cultural heritage here to say, and I'm not talking about this in relation even to the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

[00:08:35] Nina: Yeah. And I love this phrase, tribal mosaic. And, what strikes me also is that no one is really alone.....ever. 

[00:08:44] Souli: No. Obviously, group living, it has its own challenges. Here, you don't have even the opportunity to be alone or lonely. Like my mom, her grandchildren live around there. So, she doesn't really have her own time alone. And, there is no homeless here. This is not because people have a lot of money rather, there's a lot of care and mercy and community life, and with some problems like everywhere. 

[00:09:09] Nina: Yeah. Yeah. That sense of care, also for the elderly. People are watching over them, which is a big problem in other cultures at the moment. 

[00:09:17] Souli: Yeah. In the whole West Bank you might find two elderly houses, or three, I don't remember exactly; in the cities maybe, but in the villages it doesn't exist. 

[00:09:27] Nina: It's incredible. 

[00:09:28] Souli: Yeah. 

[00:09:29] Nina: Yeah. So, Hizma is separated from Jerusalem by the wall?

[00:09:34] Souli: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:34] Nina: Am I right to say that it's on one side, and then on the other side, the settlements? 

[00:09:39] Souli: So, Hizma is really located seven kilometers, like 10 minutes drive from the center of Jerusalem. Now, it's separated by a big settlement built on the road between Hizma and Jerusalem, and the separation wall and the check point, which we are not allowed to use. It's basically cut from the historical tie to the city. Historically, Hizma and the surrounding belongs to the Jerusalem district. And, some of the land that was separated by the wall, which my family owns- inside the Jerusalem side, which we don't have access to anymore. Some of it has agriculture, olive trees. The army would give a permit once a year. You can't go take care of the trees through the year, just to pick the olives, which basically the trees will give you, but you have to take care of them. So, it will die.

[00:10:31] Nina: I was reading in this beautiful book, called 'In This Place Together', where you describe how your mother used to take care of and clean the trees? 

[00:10:40] Souli: Yeah, yeah. My mom from that generation really connected to the trees and to the land, deeply. My mom physically born there. Her family, during the British time, used to work on that water resources because the British had taken water from there to Jerusalem. You can see that actually up now. So, we're very connected. This water for us is sacred. Unfortunately now it's really changed. There are a lot of settlements around. There is sewage system that's going through there. It's not even clean. Unfortunately. Lately, I was there. I asked the Israeli's guard there, who's sewage coming here? He said the truth is, it's from both sides. And this is really sad, because we both claim belonging to the land and, we are not treating the land in a healthy way. 

[00:11:27] Nina: Wow. Interesting. Can you visit or live in Hizma now? 

[00:11:33] Souli: Oh yeah. Yeah. I go to my family often. It's dense now. First of all, it's tripled, like it's maybe 10,000 people now living there, a lot of Jerusalemites, because they have a lot of housing problems inside Jerusalem. The one with Israeli identity, blue id. Many of them bought or rent apartments in Hizma, so it turned into higher buildings. It's not the village in my mind. In my memory, this old village, old houses, Jerusalem stones, beautiful. Every house with a garden. And that used to be really beautiful architecture like the old Jerusalem houses. Not anymore. People use this modern, higher buildings. And, the big reason for that is because we're divided into area A, area B, area C. So, where I live in Ramallah is area A, which is under Palestinian control, and the towns around cities within the town, it's area B, where it's controlled administration, Palestinian wise. Security wise, it's under Israeli control. Outside of the village or the town, the land it's called area C, which is fully Israeli control, which means the planning zone is not expanding with the expanding of the population. So, the village, obviously it's the same since 1990. It didn't really expand- just a little bit, which means people build on the top of their houses or new houses. So, I'm shocked when I go there, I feel I'm in Manhattan of the village. I used to stand on the roof of my family house. I would see Jerusalem, almost I can see Ramallah, the Dead Sea, and Amman, in Jordan. Wow. Yeah. It's, a mountain. So, yeah. But now, because of these houses it changed, and changed their lifestyle, obviously, and traffic. Yeah. 

[00:13:18] Nina: I'm thinking how the word, the view, is a symbol? The view is closed.

[00:13:24] Souli: Yes, of course. It's really changed. You can see Jerusalem from the village, but you can't be there. Like, it's another continent. Like my family land. You can see it from the kitchen of my family, from the window. My mom has a lot of memories there. She told me many times, I can't look there. Yeah, it's very harsh. 

[00:13:44] Nina: Yeah. You can see over the wall. 

[00:13:46] Souli: Yeah. 

[00:13:46] Nina: I'm trying to visualize what you're talking about. Does your mom go there once a year only? 

[00:13:52] Souli: Yeah, yeah. These days they give them permits. This you know, used to be a celebration. The families go there, they take the kids there to learn from their childhood, to follow the tradition. They take care of the trees. A lot of seasonal food, a lot of songs, stories, dancing from generation to generation. Many of our families trying to keep the ritual and the tradition.

[00:14:14] Nina: Yeah. It does seem like this physical wall has interrupted so many rituals..

[00:14:19] Souli: Definitely, yeah. 

[00:14:20] Nina: This connection, not just with physical land, this very deep understanding and way of celebration and reverence with the land, because the land is cut. It's even cut in your own village because everything is now high rise. So, this land disappeared from under your feet. 

[00:14:36] Souli: Yeah. 

[00:14:37] Nina: This is Nina Freedman. I am speaking with Sulaiman Khatib the co-founder of Combatants for Peace, an organization of Palestinians and Israelis working together for a future of hope on the sacred land they love. This is a story of unexpected transformations, which model that possibility. 

[00:15:08] So, Souli at a certain point when you were still quite young, when you were 14 mm-hmm. We're gonna go to this part of your story.

[00:15:17] Souli: Yeah. 

[00:15:18] Nina: You became interested in the conversations around you about Revolution and Liberation, Fatah and the P.L.O., Palestine Liberation Organization mm-hmm. By this point you had already witnessed a lot of violence in the village, and also with your family. 

[00:15:36] Souli: Yeah. 

[00:15:36] Nina: To your family. And, you made a choice. Perhaps you felt you had no real choice at the time to fight. To fight for rights, for the land, for freedom. Yeah. It began with throwing stones and, Yeah. Graffiti. Then ultimately you attacked and stabbed two Israeli soldiers and were arrested and you were put in prison for 15 years, and later I think released after maybe... 

[00:16:03] Souli: 10 years. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

[00:16:04] Nina: Completely life changing. Mm-hmm, yeah. Experience. And, while you were in prison, you experienced a huge transformation, and a different choice. Yeah. Can you explain this transformation? What happened when you were in prison? 

[00:16:22] Souli: Yeah. So, in my childhood, I would say this. I was more active than the typical mainstream students in my school, which was under Israeli control, actually, the school system. My brother was in jail, I used to visit him, so I become like really active and connected to mm-hmm , the activists' scene, revolutionary music because I play the flute. I used to have secret political magazines, that was hidden. So, I got connected emotionally and also intellectually to the cause. My father used to work in Jerusalem, spoke Hebrew fluently, has Israeli friends just to say. And, I personally used to play football with Jewish kids also, like my team from Neve Yaakov neighborhood, which is close to my village. And, before the wall, I used to meet some of these kids. But, during this activist time, let's say resistance, whatever we call in our narrative, yeah, I felt like I don't want to be part of the system and the mainstream life just to study and then to have whatever, houses and money and this and that. That was not attractive to me, to be honest. So, I started to do activism as much as I could at the time. When I was 14, the only choice, without thinking, was what we call in our narrative armed struggle or violence. And that's how I thought I would serve better the cause, as a good guy of the land. Which means, you know, I tried to do everything. I used to have a keffiyeh. I was the leader of the kids. So this was also to be super honest, giving me a lot of adrenaline, you know, like facing this big Israeli army with small tools, and knowing secrets. I used to connect with the elders, so...

[00:18:03] Nina: It was exciting. 

[00:18:05] Souli: Yeah, yeah. And fear obviously and all of that. Yeah, it's mix of million feelings. Nothing stopped me, actually. And, also the feeling like I'm one of the good guys that's protecting the land and the cause. I was attracted to militarization and armed struggle at the time.

[00:18:22] Nina: You weren't afraid? 

[00:18:24] Souli: No. I mean, some moments obviously, and I have to be secretive with my family, also. Yeah. Cause they don't want you to go to jail. Yeah. In the end, one guy from my village, his family house was demolished. He was 17 and a half. He joined me to attack and stab two Israelis in order to take their weapon. That was the intention. They were slightly wounded and there was a big story in the news and the television. And they draw us in the television. They did the curfew, they checked the village, and we escaped for a few days. After a few days we were arrested. So, I was at this point 14 and five months, in jail, going back and forth to the court. It's a military court. So, just to say, from a legal point, this is not a normal Israeli system. This is a military system. Age doesn't really matter so much. I became 15. They sentenced me to 15 years and my friend became 18. He was sentenced 18. 

[00:19:14] Nina: They give one year per age? 

[00:19:16] Souli: 15. And he got 18. I played the Palestinian hero at the time that's not scared from the system, the occupation as much as I could. And yeah, I lived with teenagers until I became 17 and a half. Then they transferred me to adults jail. They take you from jail to jail. So in my jail time, you know, it's a big time to speak about shortly, but I participated in food hunger strikes a few times, which is the typical technique that prisoners use to improve their daily life in jail. My first hunger strike, I was 15 with hundred something kids in jail for 16 days. This was really a huge transformation, to recognize the power that we have inside us. Spiritual power. It was not easy, obviously, not to eat 16 days, just water and salt. That's why we call it salt and water. That's very famous slogan here. Mm-hmm. In every hunger strike we did succeed to achieve demands, which is improving the daily life in jail, bringing books, bringing hot water. And that's my first transformation, from practical experience, because I would just say this Nina, there is no easy argument to convince people that non-violence work . But, I really believe this from a real experience of life, from hunger strikes, not from a book I read. Of course, with the time I did read the about the African American struggle, and other social justice movements in the world, in history. I worked in the library of the jail and I used to read a lot, and I used to be very open minded to listen to different voices. I felt like I grew up in jail. The choices I made is not out of weakness. Some people think we choose nonviolence out of weakness.. That's not true. Also I studied Hebrew. The truth is, the theory was to learn your enemy's language. A long, long journey. It's not one event changed me. I have a long journey to reach a level evolving of forgiveness and love. Non-violence are not really weaknesses; rather the opposite. And practically what we say, there is no military solution for this conflict from either side. Israel has one of the strongest army. But as they can't crush our souls. That's not gonna happen. They can kill us physically, or the other way around. But, for me it became deeper, as ideology, transforming this power here to non-violence, and to find shared space for both peoples that feel belonging to the same place. It's maybe challenging for many people. I understand from all sides. Very challenging, including to my family to say both people carry this narrative, belonging to this land. Same stones, the same land, the same water, honestly. I think recognizing this fact is a pre-condition for changing the discourse here. This is going back to the roots of everything. And, it take me many years to be there. I am not saying it's easy, and it's sometimes maybe easier to stay in our comfortable zone. If we talk about Jewish history, for years dreaming to go back to Jerusalem. And, the same for Palestinian. My family in Jordan, they are Palestinian. That's their truth, and their soul is connected to the land where we are. Our ancestors used to say, We don't own the land. We belong to the land. That's how I grew up. Nowadays with capitalistic system around the world, we own everything, including the land. But being in reality also means for me that I feel no threat to recognize the belonging of different communities, Palestinians and Jews, to this land. What we do with this question, that's a bigger conversation. Yeah. And of course, it's a different way of belonging. For a Palestinian, for example, for my family, it's an ongoing being there, for centuries and centuries. My family has recorded in the Ottomanic records in 15th century, and before that. This is their only memory. Between Jerusalem and Jordan, that's where they lived.

[00:23:22] Nina: The phrase you just used, you belong to the land. 

[00:23:24] Souli: Yeah. That's our ancestors culture.

[00:23:27] Nina: Right. Yeah. This takes away this sense of ownership. Mm-hmm, when you belong to the land, the land is there, you're part of it. It's a reverence for the land. Yeah. But, it's a different way of looking at belonging. Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:41] Souli: Yeah. We have to recognize Nina, it's important while we talk about this maybe for some people it's la la land to speak about harmony. I would also recognize the fear that people have. You spoke about ownership. I agree, and the fear and trauma inherited over generations, in both sides, in different ways, obviously. Yeah. Yeah, I'm aware of this. As a Palestinian, I would say the fear and the trauma that Jewish people has, it does affect their treatment to the Palestinians. I'm not legitimizing anything, but I understand where the fear is coming from, and maybe the whole idea that there is not enough. Mm. So yeah, rather, I prefer to share resources of this land, the water and the space and everything with whoever are living here rather than certain group of people control the place and they fear to share because of the fear that there is not enough, which is not true actually. I really believe there is enough resources. Yeah. A bigger question I have friends talk about this. Is it possible that more than one group of people can belong and love and respect that stone or that mountain or that city or that place? I really believe it's possible I don't see contradiction here. 

[00:24:58] Nina: This is really hard work, on a very deep level. Because, to make any change it really starts with one's own personal narrative. Right? So the question is, where does your own biography live? What is inherited? What is handed down, the connective tissue between the generations? Mm-hmm. How do we respect the ancestral story? Our families. And knowing all of this, we then choose to do something that could be perceived as heresy. Mm. Yeah. Right. I'm interested in the things that we give up in order to belong and the things that we lose when we leave. This tension, I don't think it's individual. It's in the personal and the collective. Mm-hmm. There's no black and white. And, it's not only in relationship to the conflict that you're talking about, it could be in relation to understanding a family structure, or family rift and trying to realize all the dreams that we have, that anybody has. Mm-hmm. It is actually ultimately a love story. Mm-hmm. between the things that we cherish. Mm-hmm. and the things that make us very uncomfortable. Right? Yeah. I feel this is what you're weaving and knitting together. I'm wondering how your family and the people that you grew up with, in your village, took to this change, this transformation and the work that you now do. 

[00:26:36] Souli: Hmm. Yeah. Thank you, Nina. Definitely all the tensions that spoke about exist anyway and it's not one time, and you are free from tensions. Obviously. Contradictions exist all the time. So let me say this. Basically, I am not representing the mainstream obviously, which is fine for me because I think between the reality and the vision and the dreams of a different world that we are trying to create, there is a big, big space, big gap, of course. It's hard for people to imagine even, especially the one that born in the conflict, under occupation system, it's hard to imagine something else. I really understand that. It need a big imagination, a big heart, a big dreamers maybe to imagine something beyond these walls, borders that exist here. So for me, choosing non-violence and common shared values is not a rosy bed. I am aware of this. And, it triggered many people, including my family. I can share with you personally, my nephew, 14 years old, was shot by the army two days ago, in his hand with a live bullet, not even rubber bullet as they used to do sometimes, or tear gas, because there is a lot of escalation happening now. And, doctors couldn't take the bullet because it's in a sensitive place in his hand, and they will check again, if they can take it out or not. It's not easy. We are not talking about ideas just, you know, it's alive. A lot of anger. So, for sure there is a lot of criticism what's called normalization or anti-normalization. What I'm talking about and some of the people that's similar to me doing, is called normalization with the occupation. For some people they appreciate what we do. So you have this and you have that. I am really peace with this actually, I have to say, because I'm doing personally what my heart is telling me is the right way. I'm not judging any other strategies other people do. I try to advocate for what I believe is the way and the right thing for the future of our people. I started my whole journey struggling for liberation and freedom. And this is where I am for our peoples, that includes the Palestinian from living as an oppressed community from the occupation. And, for Israelis also not to be occupiers, and oppressors. I believe this is connected, and I believe our freedom is really connected. We live in the same piece of land. You spoke about love story. Yes. We both love and belong to this land. No side is leaving. That's what I will say to many people that criticize us here. I do pay the price for that in public spaces here. It's not comfortable. So, definitely speaking different than the group where you live, I lost some friends.

[00:29:30] Nina: Do you feel danger? 

[00:29:33] Souli: No. Of course, sometimes, like during War in Gaza, there is more criticism. Two weeks ago, Combatants for Peace, one of the organizations, I'm one of the founders. We started a program for younger generation, 18 to 25 years old, called the Freedom School. This was attacked by a famous Palestinian writer on social media, so the kids were scared and it's not easy. I basically don't feel threat. I feel I'm okay to pay the price for my beliefs, where ver it takes. I'm not scared. I'm aware of the triggers, the challenges, trying not to anger people too much, maybe meet people where they are, but definitely. It's not a supportive environment, let's say. Because of that, it's important for the people trying to make change to align with each other. Honestly, even these circles have a lot of differences and division among each other. That's maybe harder for me, than with the mainstream. 

[00:30:32] Nina: Yeah. I feel compelled to ask. Do your conversations and meetings ever take place with the militant factions in the Palestinian? 

[00:30:42] Souli: You can ask anything, just to say. 

[00:30:44] Nina: Hamas, Jihadis, do you have any contact? 

[00:30:48] Souli: There is no direct conversations, to be honest, but I think especially Combatants for Peace and maybe other groups that I'm part of, they become well known, and it's all over social media in Arabic, English, Hebrew, nothing hidden. Many people have access to that, and see that actually. Also, we have some supporters in Gaza. Some people communicate with us . The majority are not activists. That's not realistic to expect the majority to be activists. But the people interested in activism and politics and the conflict, they do have access to see what we do online. It's in the public. I even have some friends that are not in our space, but they're supportive from afar. 

[00:31:31] Nina: Supportive, but not necessarily activist.

[00:31:33] Souli: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people like that actually. And of course there's the people opposing what we do. We live in a small place. Everybody knows everybody actually. It's not hidden. I believe transforming people is possible. This is what I happened to me, to other friends, and it can happen to other people. This is not a special thing for me and my friends. 

[00:31:52] Nina: This is Nina Freedman I am speaking with Sulaiman Khatib the co-founder of Combatants for Peace, an organization of Palestinians and Israelis working together for a future of hope on the sacred land they love. This is a story of unexpected transformations, which model that possibility. 

[00:32:23] You mentioned your organization, the Combatants for Peace. I understand maybe it's much larger now, but originally, part of it was really the fighters, right, from both sides. Yeah. Potentially even people who killed people. Yeah. Mm-hmm. From the other side. Mm-hmm, who have now decided to be committed to a peaceful coexistence. Yeah. This beautiful documentary describes your story, the stories of many of these people, and the organization and the evolution of Combatants for Peace. Chen Alon, the other co-founder, he was the Israeli. Really? Yeah. And you've even been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize twice 2018, 2019. Wow. Which is incredible. I'd like you to talk a little bit about this organization. You already touched on your personal optimism, which is, I think, the guiding light behind you and everyone else that's in this organization. 

[00:33:20] Souli: Yeah. I really feel honored that I was part of creating this movement. Combatants for Peace did start with ex officers, soldiers and fighters from both sides. People like me that were in jail, or you mention my dear friend, Chen Alon, and others that were in the Army, in the Israeli side, but some years later we did open the organization for people that were not in jail or army. So, the organization now is open really for different people. But the DNA of the organization started from this background, because this background can help us in our streets and both sides of giving credibility to what we do, actually. This is maybe important to mention here. And, as I mentioned before, we had the Freedom School for Israeli youngsters and Palestinian also, because we try to work with the younger generation as well to pass the message on. Yes. Many of us involved in violence in the past in different ways. I'm not comparing because it's a different story, but that's the proof that people have the ability to change. That's our message. There is no military solution for the conflict. We try to build bridges. We are aware of the power dynamic between the sides and are realistic also. So, the organization run jointly from both sides. For example, we have two directors, Palestinian Rana, she's from Bethlehem and Yonatan is from Jerusalem, and now lives in Tel Aviv. They run the organization on a daily basis, and we have two offices deciding things together and work together create a lot of trust. We come from different backgrounds and different narratives. So, we try to create this new narrative, if you wish. A new situation where narratives are legitimized and recognized and humanized. Because there is a lot of dehumanization in the media. It's not about us personally, really. It's about the homeland and the people here and the kids that grew up in this land. Many times people ask us, okay, what did you achieve? I think when I look back, I feel proud that we are able to mobilize thousands of thousands of people and different events we created. It's a model of hope for people when they see this cooperation happening, and the peaceful joint co-resistance, let's call it. We need more of that. We need more of different programs that bring our people together to bridge the divide here. There are other organizations, other groups doing great work also, bringing our peoples together, not to follow the path of either us or them. The idea of us or them is the past and it's not realistic. Our goal is to create freedom and dignity for everyone. We try as a grassroots movement to mobilize people to meet each other and also to oppose their injust system in the place here, basically. I have to say in the deeper sense, this is in the soul, in the core. It's really to shift the consciousness here for the common good of both people that lives here in the long run.

[00:36:22] Nina: I asked you about Hamas. I didn't ask you about your contact with Israeli political leaders. 

[00:36:28] Souli: Similar. The truth is we do have a few Knesset members that are in touch with us. And maybe that's helping us in our biggest event. We started alternative Palestinian, Israeli Memorial Day to create a common event with 70 people, next year 200 people, and then around 10,000 people before Corona, attending the event. Then, in Corona time, the event on Zoom got around 200, 250,000 people globally. That's really for me the future, changing the consciousness here and elsewhere, even affecting other places in the world because the division is everywhere. We also started a few years ago to do a joint Israeli- Palestinian Nakba ceremony, the Palestinian catastrophe. Just recognizing that it really helps our people to mobilize, to open up. This is joint, from both sides. We're doing it every year in May. This is a milestone. One of the organizers of Memorial Day said, last time after we did the evaluation -his dream that in the future we will celebrate our national events together. Mm-hmm. I believe a hundred percentage it is possible. The common ground is big here. And, I think here it's much more possible than other places, because we are similar historical wise and language and belonging to the Middle East and so on. Of course, we're talking about long journey.

[00:37:48] Nina: Before, I was talking about inner work facing one's own personal narrative. In the organization, is this conversation encouraged? 

[00:37:57] Souli: A wider circle of Palestinians and Israelis do a lot of deeper work for trauma healing and looking within. This is growing during the last few years, I would say. And, this is really promising. A lot of this work is really underground, which is fine. That's how Revolutions works. In classic activism people go to demonstrations. I think really important to ask ourselves what's our intention? Why we are doing what we are doing. The personal models here is important because we all have our mistakes and problems. I think the deeper changes happening really in this quiet underground work which is not well known in the public, in the media. I see a lot of transformation happening there, using ancient wisdom and spiritual work.

[00:38:42] Nina: Why do you use the word revolution instead of evolution? 

[00:38:46] Souli: Because I actually connected with the term since my childhood. In my last birthday, a friend of mine has given me this present that says every rose has its Revolution, in Arabic. 

[00:39:00] Nina: The petal and the thorn. 

[00:39:01] Souli: Right. So I'm somehow connected to that. Yeah. 

[00:39:05] Nina: It carries a lot of weight, this choice of words. 

[00:39:08] Souli: Yeah. You know, we live in a very harsh corner. For the sake of the values that we are talking about, it's also important to stay in touch with the reality, while dreaming of different world. And I'm really fully aware of the reality, what's happening on the ground, and keep dreaming and envisioning a new reality.

[00:39:33] Nina: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:33] Souli: It's important to be balanced a bit on that. Yeah.

[00:39:36] Nina: It draws up the imagination to other somebody else.

[00:39:41] Souli: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I see that. It's not easy to include people that we don't agree with. This is the balance between reality right now, where we are and the world we are creating, which is not gonna happen in one minute. It's a journey. And one thing I learned from our culture, which exists in other cultures, what we are doing is really not just for our generation. It's not necessarily for our lifetime. 

[00:40:06] Nina: Souli. We're going to close soon. Is there anything else that we haven't talked about that you, yourself, feel that you want to speak about? 

[00:40:14] Souli: Mm-hmm, yeah. again, thank you Nina, for this opportunity to maybe touch heart of some people. I don't really believe in logic so much and mind. I really believe in heart to heart language, and I feel privileged. I feel responsibility actually to put in my own words from my own heart the message of many people that don't have this opportunity. So, this is really appreciated and I hope this can support journeys of others of opening towards what we call the other. You mentioned othering. Mm-hmm. And, I wanna close by something I learned when I was a child and then in jail, from a famous Islamic school, the cousin of Muhammad. We learn from his books non-violence and wisdom, and how to turn the other into a brother and to turn your enemy into a friend. This is the struggle, I mean, across the world, actually, seeing what's happening right now in Ukraine, Russia, Europe, the world is tense. And locally. We need a lot of wisdom and a lot of empathy and mercy for ourselves and for other people. And, this is really something I learned a lot from my tribal system called Sulha -reconciliation. My family still practices this principle that exists even during Abrahamic time across Middle East. I believe for the Abrahamic family as a whole, and the spiritual people and the non-believers, this is something deeply important to bring to the table, to the conversation. And it can really provide a platform of a real deep heart to heart reconciliation, than the typical political negotiation. I just wanna offer this because my family still practice this to help the peaceful coexistence among even our tribes and families, you know? Yeah. It's my hope to use the local culture into the solution. Yeah. 

[00:42:10] Nina: Yeah. I really feel what you're saying. It's very, very beautiful. You know, the word brother and other, It's two letters. Yeah. We talk about language and when you were talking about Sulha, which is a word that I never heard. It sounded to me like the Hebrew word 'slicha'. 

[00:42:28] Souli: The slicha, lisloach... It's just forgiveness. Yeah. Same, same roots in Arabic and Hebrew. The same. Yeah. That's actually what drawn me to this beautiful old culture Hebrew, Arabic. It's very connected. I speak Hebrew very well from jail time. Many terms, like the old Arabic and old Hebrew are so rooted and similar. 

[00:42:49] Nina: This word, what you call reconciliation, the reconciliation begins with, yeah, forgiveness. The Slicha. 

[00:42:56] Souli: Yeah. Yeah. Slicha. Yeah. It's the same. You see when you guys connect with the history, and we do too, we could meet there. 

[00:43:03] Nina: I want to say to our listeners that they'll be able to get a lot more information about some of the things that we've spoken about on the Combatants for Peace website, watching the documentary called 'Disturbing the Peace', and also this beautiful book that I mentioned, 'In This Place Together'. I highly recommend both the documentary and the book, both very beautiful and all these links will be included on the podcast Whereing website. 

[00:43:34] Souli, thank you very much for your time today. I'm very, very happy that we met. Thank you.

[00:43:40] Souli: Thank you, Nina. 

[00:43:41] Nina: Dear listeners, thank you for being here. I invite you to reflect on what you've heard today and send your thoughts or stories. We would love to hear from you. Stay in touch on Instagram, or on our website, thewhereing.com. Subscribe free to Whereing wherever you get your podcast, so that you are alerted when the next episode airs. Whereing is a pro bono initiative of Dreamland Creative Projects, which provides design for the places where we live, heal, age, and inspire. Visit dreamlandcreativeprojects.com, or email me nina@dreamlandcreativeprojects.com. 

[00:44:32] Until we meet again, goodbye from Whereing.