What Is Your Brand Really Saying? | Leadership, Reputation & People-Centered Business

In this episode of Diversity Conversations, Eric Ellis and Tommie Lewis explore a powerful leadership question:

What is your brand really saying when you’re not in the room?

From personal experiences to real business insights, this conversation evolves into a deep dive on branding, trust, and people-centered leadership in today’s rapidly changing world.

✨ In this episode, you’ll discover:

• Why your brand is more than a logo — it’s your reputation
• How people experience your leadership when you're not present
• The connection between values, integrity, and business success
• Why “people-centered workplaces” drive performance
• How leaders can strengthen their brand through clarity and consistency
• The role of humility, service, and trust in long-term impact
• Why rebranding isn’t always the answer — sometimes you need to amplify who you already are

This episode also highlights real leadership moments, from navigating unexpected situations to staying grounded in purpose and values.

🎙️ Whether you’re a leader, entrepreneur, or professional building your career, this conversation will challenge you to rethink how your brand is being experienced every day.

⏱️ Chapters

00:00 – Welcome to Diversity Conversations
02:30 – Weekly Updates & Leadership Reflections
08:30 – Finding Value in Any Conversation
15:20 – You Never Know Who’s Talking About You
22:10 – What Is Personal Branding Really?
30:40 – Business, Branding & You
40:15 – How Leaders Build Trust & Reputation
50:10 – DEI, Perception & Brand Challenges
58:30 – Amplify Your Brand, Don’t Reinvent It
01:04:30 – Final Thoughts & Closing

👥 About the Hosts

Eric Ellis
President & CEO of Integrity Development Corporation
A leadership strategist focused on building people-centered workplaces that drive performance through respect, inclusion, and engagement.
https://www.integritydevcorp.com

Tommie Lewis
President & CEO of Make It Plain Consulting
A human resources management expert helping organizations improve people, processes, and culture through clarity and practical solutions.
https://mipcllc.com/

🔍 Tags
leadership, personal branding, business leadership, communication, trust, reputation, executive leadership, people centered leadership, workplace culture, company culture, branding strategy, leadership development, emotional intelligence, business growth, entrepreneurship, diversity conversations, eric ellis, tommie lewis, management consulting, human resources, professional growth

 📅 New conversations every Saturday 9:30 AM EST
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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to Diversity Conversations, where we engage in thought-provoking dialogue to identify leadership solutions to today's most challenging conflicts. Stream live each week, Saturday, 9 30 a.m. to 11 a.m., hosted by Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Strategist and CEOs Eric Ellis and Tommy Lewis. Join us and add your voice to this engaging diversity conversation.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Good morning, Greater Cincinnati, Northern Kentucky, the United States, and the world. My name is Eric Ellison. I'm the president and CEO of Integrity Development Corporation, and I'm joined this morning by my good friend and brother, Tommy Lewis, president and CEO of Make It Plain Consulting.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Good morning, Eric. Morning, T. What's up, man? Hey, nothing much, nothing much. It's good to be up and at it this morning, another Saturday with diversity conversations.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Right. Exactly. Exactly, man. I'm excited about our conversation today. We got all kinds of things going on right now because Tommy and I are always upgrading. And so we've got our in-air monitors in today. And so we're going to be testing out some things. But Tommy, man, it's good to be with you, man. I'm just excited about the conversation that we're going to have today. We got uh an amazing guest, I believe. If not, we're going to have an amazing conversation ourselves as well. Tommy, how was your week, man?

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Yeah, week was good. It was a lot of things going on, Eric. Uh, a little unusual week for myself. Uh, I'll share with you that uh if there are three things that happen. One is uh we're excited about the Illuminate Leadership Institute and conference. That's my nonprofit for those rising seventh to ninth grade leaders. We're inviting youngsters from across the country to join us in Cincinnati, Ohio at the University of Cincinnati on June the 21st to the 26th. It's a residential, interactive experience, and so we're inviting folks in and we're starting to take uh registrations. Now we've had nominations, we have something close to 25 nominations, and now we're accepting registrations. And this week our QR code crashed, and the QR code is the ability to not only register, but it's also the ability to pay for the small tuition. Uh, and uh the QR code is used for sponsors. Uh with that being said, we have received a sponsor, FEG Investment Advisors. Thank you, thank you, thank you for investing in our young people. It is phenomenal. Uh, and so there are going to be some other sponsors that see a value in uh our young people. Again, not just our our high school students or our college students, but also starting younger, right? Middle school to prepare them for either career, life, or whatever pursuits they may have. And so that was a great opportunity. And then, secondly, Eric had the opportunity to really meet with my team as we are moving our business offices uh from our location that we've been at for 15 years into another location. It's closer to a big project that we're working on, it's closer to the what they call the central business district with all of the other uh big hitters, the Fortune 500 companies. And so our layout for our office is going to be top-notch.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Doing shopping, uh window shopping right now before we make purchases of furniture. And as I mentioned last week, you know, I have a particular style and interest in furniture and things, right? So um I did get some recommendations and like, hey, we can get that desk. It's you know,$99. No, we're not gonna do a$99 desk because in two weeks it's right, we're gonna be on the floor. Right. We're gonna make investments to take whatever we purchase to wherever we go next. So that's been very exciting to be blessed with forecasting from a business perspective, supporting that forecasting with real income and cash flow, and then also elevating our service to clients at the end of the day. And that's one thing I learned, and third point is when we had the guest, and and our producer may help have to help us uh help me remember uh our gentleman who uh ran the coaching, uh he was he was global. Uh I Apollo, yeah, Dr. Apollo. No, no, not went to Panama, somebody else. No, uh in Lydia will help us out. Garcia Massey Masayez. I think so. That he had the coaching, he had different uh coaches from around the world. He was down in Monterey, he located down in Monterey, Mexico, right? Uh, but nonetheless, uh Heraldo, right? His uh his speaker, uh Geraldo, yes, his uh his talk inspired me so much. I followed up with him. I'll have another follow-up with Larry, but last week I started to put into action some of the recommendations that he was making. Right. And so that's how my week has been. Sorry to be long-winded. No, man, not at all. Uh, but I'm uh, you know, everything we do is uh it's it's strategic and tactical at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Uh Tommy, I'm I'm so excited for you to hear all the wonderful things that are going on. That's powerful, man. And uh, you know, it's uh it's an exciting time. It's an exciting time for your business. I love the growth. I love your focus on excellence, I love the exciting twinkle in your eye as you look at progressing from where you've been to your own new uh outstanding, exciting, personally curated space, man. That's an exciting thing. That's indeed. And uh, community, what we're gonna do is uh, you know, so let me first talk about my week just a little bit. Uh it's been a great week. Uh, you know, uh we are uh working to sell our home. And so I feel like, man, I just might as well put on a bonnet. I am in there vacuuming every day, Tommy, because we have house showings and things like that. Uh, you know, cleaning mirrors and things like that. Just uh, you know, doing all those kind of things, man, to make sure that I prepare our place for somebody else to come in and be able to call it home. Uh uh the other thing that is happening today, and I just want to ask our community to remember uh Bishop uh Stevenson. Uh yeah, he's lost his wife. She's gone on to be with the Lord. Uh Marisa, uh Stevenson, Pastor Marisa Stevenson, John Stevenson's wife, uh, has passed on and gone on to glory. And so he and I had a chance to uh spend some time together, Tommy, and just to listen to this pastor talk about his wife, uh, their last 16 months together, and being able to really minister to her and be by her side and pray with her and hold her hand. And uh it was just really a powerful experience, one that you could really almost feel the presence of God. Uh it was, it was, it was just like the experience that you told me uh with being in the room when your father passed on and your mother coming in, and just all of those are powerful moments that allow us to recognize the connection between the human world and the spirit world. And uh it's something I think about being in those moments of transitioning, yeah, uh, that uh something heavy happens. You know, as I listened to you talk about it, it felt as though to me that your father's spirit had really found greater space inside of you, you know, and you stood up with uh with a mantle that you were carrying that was not the same mantle that you carried before that moment. And uh so as I listened to uh uh Bishop uh John Stevenson talk about uh his wife and their powerful moments together, it's an opportunity to clarify a lot of things. Uh, every word that you're saying during that time is the most meaningful words that you can muster. Because this is for keeps now. My days aren't long, so I'm not gonna waste words. And so the fact that you really zero in on what matters most uh was powerful to me to hear. And what I heard from him as he wept, you know, in my office upstairs, is uh, you know, just just being able to do to embody what his real principles and values are around service, and to be able to uh to everything that we disagreed about along this journey, all of that goes away, Tommy. Yes, it does. And the only thing that matters is the these moments right here, and really zeroing in on what's most meaningful to each of us. Uh their kids were a part of that process. Uh, her daughters in the faith in the ministry were part of that process. And uh and uh it was just powerful to listen to, and so I'll be going to that funeral this afternoon. But I just want to uh ask our community to remember that family. Uh death is something that happens every single day, all day long. Uh, but it's almost like when my wife and I first uh had our child, our first child. It was like people have been having babies forever.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

Yeah, but now all of a sudden it's like this we're having a baby, you know, and got all the professionals around. Like, do you know what you're doing? Yeah, people that we have we we birth uh about one child a minute, right? Right. We can handle this, but but the the the blessing in that is that even with the professionals that help aid in the birth of a child, right? They make it very personal. Right, right. This is very new and very special to you, and so the loss of a dear loved one, right? Uh, although transition is not new, right, right, as you mentioned, Eric, it is when when we can make it personal and dedicated to that person that uh and that's empathy. We're walking in your shoes. Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

So again, thank you for sharing that. Right. And so we'll continue uh to remember them in prayer. Tommy, have you been taking advantage of any of the March Madness?

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Uh, I have not as much yet, Eric. I will, to be honest, uh, you know, the games come on uh during the day, right? Some come on in the evening, but I'll catch up. Uh I was at the bank yesterday uh working on an issue, and uh um I was a little disgruntled sitting there waiting on the bank manager to come in. Right. And there's another gentleman who worked for the bank. He observed my frustration. Okay, and he came kind of walking out. I knew it was intentional. He came walking out, hey, everything okay? So yeah, can I get you some water? Yeah. As soon as he did that, then he went into the you know, March Madness. Oh, and I I was just smiling, laughing, you know, talking about some things, but I hadn't watched it. And he did a great job in diverting my attention right from the point of hand to the game. So I have it.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

How about you? I have. I had a chance to watch uh my alma mater was uh in uh uh March Madness, uh Wright State University. Uh they have a wonderful coach. Uh I watched them win the horizon uh tournament uh event and get an automatic birth into March Madness. And after the uh game, I listened to the interview, Tommy, and I was so moved by the character of the coach and both his faith in God, but it's also his love of the young men that he was coaching and the culture that he had created within that team environment. I mean, it was just so powerful, man, how much he believed in those kids. And so I became a fan, even though I went there. I don't watch much Wright State basketball, but watching this coach and these boys, these young men, uh really talk about the love that they have for each other, uh, their faith in God, uh, and their uh desire to do their best on the basketball court. They played up against Virginia and uh they were the underdog by a long shot, uh, but they were in the game the whole way. Okay. They were in the game the whole way. I think he eventually lost by nine, but that didn't even uh depict what had happened throughout that game. Uh they hung in there, man, and they were up against Goliath and uh they were throwing some haymakers. So it was impressive to see that. Unfortunately, uh I watched Miami uh sort of uh, you know, they uh lost their tournament uh uh automatic bid. And so there was a whole debate around the country around whether they should even get in. And so uh, you know, they let them in on the first four play-in kind of situation, and they played SMU and beat them. Okay, and so everybody was on fire. It was it happened in Dayton, man. And so all the Miami fans were in Dayton, Ohio's like a home game, man. That was just exciting to watch. And they were just shooting threes in from everywhere. Yeah, I mean, they put up 41 threes. Wow, 41. And uh their coach says that's what we're trying to do. That's how many they made? No, that's how many they threw up. Okay, no, yeah, no, they they threw up 41 threes. Uh, but they probably hit 16, 16 and uh ended up winning that game. So there was a lot of excitement about them uh moving on to the next game, but man, they just got treated like stepchildren. The team that they played like uh young men, your journey is over. Yeah, and it's been a good run. It's been a good run, but we're gonna trample you. I mean, they literally trampled them, and it was like they were shell shocked. Uh, and the thing is, Tommy, what I would say, so the lesson that I was screaming at the TV was do what you did to get here, don't introduce something new, like you're a three-point shooting team, and yes, they're guarding you, and and and you're trying to think this thing out like, hey, we're going to break into the lane, make a few short shots, and then that's gonna open up to three. These are trees in here. Yeah, there's a reason why it's open for you to get in here. Yeah, there's a reason you like, hey, this thing is open in the middle. The big man in the middle didn't even jump, Tommy. Yeah, he was seven something, he didn't jump. Yeah, yeah, boom. Because the wingspans and he was blocking shots with his forearm.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

Yeah, that's why you can come in here because I'm gonna throw you out, right? So whatever.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

What are you doing? So, what they should have done is keep passing the ball around the uh horn until somebody gets a shot, and then just throw it up. I mean, just uh they were hesitating. So if you hesitate, then the guy's gonna get there. You have to do what you've always done, shoot them all. You know, there's one kid. This was the funniest stat, Tommy, that I've ever heard in my life of basketball. There's a one kid on one of the teams that made his first two-point shot. No, took his first two-point shot of the season.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

I had heard the gentleman told me about that, and it was a layup. The all 99.9% of his shots were three-point shots. Is that crazy or what? He took first shot layup, right? Right. And you know how what is going on? It's a layup. You have layup lines, all of this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

So I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

So it was really fantastic. March Madness is a special time of year. Uh, we have uh some amazing teams, amazing athletes. Uh, I watched just some young men, it was just grown men out there playing rugged basketball. I mean, semi-rugby. Uh, we saw some guards that were you know playing some fantastic ball. I watched uh a game last night. Who did who played last night? It was uh not St. John, it was uh UConn. UConn played this uh little team man, Cal uh Baptist. Tommy, they had a little guy on their team that was the fifth leading scorer in all of college ball, and so he shot in the first half. Man, he shot 16 or 17 shots and hit like two of them. They were behind Tommy by 26 points, and people were just burying them saying, ah, it's been a good run, guys. But uh wow, they guess I guess they've given you a lesson, 26-point deficit. And he he found a heater. Tommy, this young man hit so many crazy shots, man. They brought it back to four points down, limited four points down for 26. And uh, you know, and so it's that kind of exciting time of year. I don't watch basketball a lot now, uh, but man, just watching the excitement, uh, the expectation, the dreams in young people's eyes has been really a fantastic uh exercise.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

Yeah, I appreciate this conversation and thank you for folks joining us again. Uh, continue to like and subscribe. We always want to be reminded that we're on the air with you. We appreciate you every Saturday morning. In conversations like this, Eric, uh, when we when we were talking, it reminded me of uh we're talking March Madness, which is basketball. It is NCAA basketball, college basketball. And uh some people are familiar, most people are not, right? Uh some people are watching it regularly, and uh some people are not, right? So I was listening to you as someone who appreciates basketball, but I I hadn't watched games, right? So I'm just getting the news sports update. For those who do not watch basketball, do not care about basketball, there's a lesson in this conversation that's good this diversity conversation. Two things, and you may add some value to it as well, Eric. One, when you are a part of a conversation directly or indirectly, how do you stay engaged? How do you listen? What are you listening to? Are you listening to yourself? I'm sick and tired of this conversation, or tell me more, tell me more. Or do you kind of lean in? This is a conversation that you do not want to be a part of, you don't care about it, but do you lean in to get some takeaway? Maybe to bring some value. I'm not talking about pivoting the conversation, but adding value to the conversation to surface more that then it can resonate with you. The other is when you are part of a conversation that you either are not interested in or you don't have a lot of education around, how do you how might you dismount the conversation respectfully, but still learn from the moment? Because the R factor is E plus R equals O. E is the event, conversation, situation that we cannot control that just happened. Right. R is our response to that event, and that's our choice. O is the outcome. When we're a part of a conversation or event that we don't want to be a part of, or it's something that we didn't ask for, our response sends ripples. So it's a if it's a conversation, I just turn away and say, I don't want to talk about bad basketball and March Madness, and I just turn away, it may leave the ripples from those who are still engaged to say, Oh, we we may never have another conversation like this or any conversation around them again. Right. Right. I say this, Eric, because as I was invited to a special event this week, um I I was reflecting on how and why was I invited to this event. Because when I got there, there was no one else there from Cincinnati. Everyone was Dayton, north of Dayton, etc. And it was only a select group of people, and that was constantly mentioned that the audience was specifically curated, right? And I'm there, right? Yeah, okay. I I I believe that I deserve to be in any room, right? But how did I get here? Right. And so I thank the person. Who had nominated me or recommended me? Thank you for inviting me to this. Come to find out, of the 30 people, three of them I was familiar with, about eight people afterwards came running up to me because they knew me or they knew make it plain, right? The brand or the reputation. Right. Okay. Yes, sir. About eight. So I'm like, right, hold on.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Because they were running up to me like, hey, you know, having conversations. Hey, Tommy, what's going on? How's the business, man? The bridge, how's the bridge coming? And I had to pivot in my mind quickly. Right. Right. From me introducing myself to, you know, everything's good. Right. Right. This one brother said, man, your your uh reputation precedes yourself. We knew about you before COVID. That's what he said. Right. No, I'm like, ooh, what conversations are happening? All of this, Eric, is happening. These conversations. I'm trying to leave. It's over. Right. I'm trying to dismount the conversation. I no longer want to be a part of the conversation. Right. Right. And people are coming up to me. Right. So that's the point that I'm making. We're talking about basketball. We may have some viewers like, I don't know why we're talking about that. Find the blessing in what's happening in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

That's what I was thinking, Tommy. That's exactly what I was thinking. Because I just want to encourage you in the in our community that a lot of times you're going along, especially in the times that we're living in right now. You're going along. Many people are struggling business-wise. Many people are struggling financially. And I would suggest to you that a lot of times people just think maybe this is just a bad season. And, you know, how am I going to ever make it through this season? But, Tommy, what you're saying here is that, and I'm going to say this to you in our community, that you never know what God is up to. You never know who's talking about you, thinking about you. And I love that Tommy was trying to dismount the conversation because sometimes God says, I ain't actually ready for you to dismount this conversation. Because you need to understand that there are people that admire you, that have been talking about you, that are trying to get access to you, and you're somebody. I remember hearing that message during uh uh uh Jesse Jackson's funeral. You know, how many young people and others were getting the message that you are somebody. I know that Tommy Lewis is somebody, uh, but a lot of people know that. A lot of people uh are talking about him that he wasn't aware of. People are talking about you that you're not aware of. Uh, one of the things that it doesn't look like our guest is gonna make it here today, but we're still gonna have a conversation about branding. Uh, one of the things as I think about the topic of branding, uh, historically, we thought about branding from a corporate standpoint. Uh major corporations had brands, Procter Gamble has all these brands, Charmin and all these brands. Uh, and uh we thought about uh corporations, their brands, their messaging, their logos, their commercials, and that kind of thing. And then branding sort of transitioned a bit to professional athletes and entertainers. And we're familiar, Tommy, with them talking about their brand. In today's world, man, it's a relevant conversation for gig workers and entrepreneurs and people that are trying to say, what is my brand? Ultimately, what is my reputation? And so uh I think it's so important for everybody to consider what are the things that I'm doing to strengthen my brand, because my brand is going to speak for me when I'm not there. Now we want to make sure, uh Lydia, if you could bring up some of the comments from our community that we see those and that we speak to those. Uh but Tommy, what are your thoughts about this notion of our brand sort of uh pivoting from building, not pivoting, building on this notion that you were surprised that so many people were students of you in the work that you've done?

SPEAKER_02 26:42

So, two things, Eric. One, with one of the major projects that we're working on in Southwest Ohio, northern Kentucky, it's called a Brent Spence Bridge. It's a major project, north of$4 billion. We're gonna need 200 plus subcontractors, maybe a thousand workers a day. As we begin to continue talking, I'm gonna come right back. As we begin to start the uh project, uh we are looking to hire workers and subcontractors. And so, what does that mean? That means that we have to do outreach and then vet these folks. And we've learned that uh sometimes our business worker or our business owners, uh, they've been in the business for five, 10, 15, 20 years, but they haven't always polished their brand. So they, if they're in construction, for example, out in the field, out in the dirt, out in the grind, they're showing up at meetings and interviews looking like they just left the dirt. It's not always been a good brand. If you're the president CEO, you're running the company, you should have some experience in what you do. But also, we have to know our audience. And so over the last six to maybe nine months, I have been facilitating sessions called Business, Branding, and You. It's all intertwined. What is your business? And your business can be the organization that you work for or the organization that you run, branding, branding the business. What would you like others to know about you? And then you branding you. And so sometimes and oftentimes, those are very closely related uh philosophies where you show up and how people enjoy engaging with you, what they like about you as a person, your values, maybe even your character. And then, next thing you know, you have folks that want to do business with you, not because they've seen what you've done as a business, because oftentimes they haven't, it's what they think of you, and they relate you and your values and characters, characteristics to the business. And so that's what we've been working on the business branding and you, uh, and then also with the experience, Eric, that you were talking about with me and being at the event and folks knowing about me. I would say this that uh I approach my life and my life's work with absolute humility. And so, what does that mean? That means that I work so hard at providing service to our clients, our community, to people. I work so hard and so passionately to lift people up that then I find uh that it's an ongoing challenge. So when I lift one person up, I realize that there may be close to a few billion other people that I can lift up. So I don't get too terribly excited that oh, I lifted you up. Right. It was me. Everybody point at me because I am the answer. I help that one person. It's who else can I help? And in that vein, I have humility. So I don't always know what people think of me, but I'm always cognizant of my effort to have whatever someone may think of me as being good, right? Good, meaning character, good, uh, service, good, on time, good, fair, good, respectful, good. All of that is not just me, it's not just my parents, my grandparents, it is millennium of people who came before me who set me up for now. My brand is how people think of you. That's that's what it is, right? Right, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Let's see what uh uh one of our community has uh shared. I think this is a friend of ours as well. Uh, my client and I, Brooke, thank you for this. My client and I had to make hard community decisions about how to handle some members. So we anchored into our mission, our brand, and then we came to a decision we felt wonderful about. And so I would say that that's exactly uh part of what you need to be thinking about. If I gave you a definition of branding, at its simplest, branding is the impression people have of you or your organization uh when you're not in the room. It's not just a logo or colors or a tagline, those are expressions of a brand. The brand itself is the feeling, expectation, and reputation that lives in people's minds about you. When I think about my brand, I want my brand to be one of integrity, that you can trust me, that I'm going to be honest and tell the truth, and that I care deeply about people, and that I care more about doing the right thing by people than I do about even succeeding in business. Because I don't believe that real success can be achieved when you are harming people, taking advantage of people, lying to people. Uh, those things for me, Tommy, I just feel like we have to uh do better than that. And for me, I also think I want my brand to be one of never hurting you or taking advantage of you or taking something away from you. I want to see my brand as when I leave you, that I've added something to you, I've added more uh to you. And so uh that's what I would say uh as I think about branding my brand, those are the things that are more important, most important.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

You know, I I've had to really work on making sure that not only me personally, we're talking about personal brand, sure, but with from a company perspective, anyone that is associated with the business has to be aligned with the brand. I've had customers, clients, those who are not customers and clients share with me that a person or people did not align with the brand. And so uh we want to we want to continue to um you know make sure that we are constantly reinventing ourselves if we need to, to make sure that the our brand is as managed as possible because there's some misinformation out there, we know that, and people can run off into their own thoughts and perspectives, and particularly when they get caught up in their feelings, uh, then they start to speak things that may not be true about you or your brand. But when you know your character, you know your integrity, you know who you are, you know whom you are, then you can anchor down on who that is. And as things are coming differently, you can say, No, I know who I am, I'm not that, I know who we are, we're not that. And uh we're gonna work through this together.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Right. Tommy, uh, I think in many ways the work that you and I do is in part to help organizations deal with their brand. Uh, I know that uh from my perspective, branding is not just a consultative exercise. Uh, I believe that branding has to flow out of uh an honest reputation and an honest set of values that you're living out. And so there, the brand is not what you write up with a consultant. The brand is the decisions that you make, it's the values that you hold, it's the way that you truly operate. And sometimes one of the last things that I'm trying to do is help organizations put forth a brand that's different than who they really are.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

So let me ask you, Eric, if if you're my consultant for my company, specifically, what three things should I be paying attention to, or three things I should do to improve or strengthen my brand?

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Right. I like that question, Tommy. I think that for me, it starts from an understanding of how you are currently viewed. And so I think that uh I suggest to organizations that I have to think about what it is that I'm trying to accomplish. And if I'm trying to really uh be successful, then I believe that success starts by understanding the current state. And so as we work with organizations, we do that in a couple of ways. One is through an inclusion survey. So we'll do a survey across all employees to get their perceptions of you, uh, perceptions around uh respect and belonging, and then do you hear their voice? That's one section. And then fairness uh in terms of uh pay and promotions and things like that. Uh, and then we do that. Uh the third section has a demographic section that allows us to understand how your people are seeing you. Uh, and then looking at does that differ based upon who they are? Uh, the other part that we do then is we also look at uh your systems and processes. So we don't just take people's perceptions, but we also look at your systems and processes. And all of that will help you get a clear understanding of how you are operating. Because sometimes people are paying folks that are doing the same job in unfair ways. And it's not until you actually look at the data that you can see how you're operating. Once we show people sort of here's the perceptions that your people have of you, here's the data around your systems and processes, then we got a question. And so we provide them with then a sort of a current state analysis uh and then some recommendations. And you have to decide, wow, do I believe this data? Uh, and then secondly, what am I willing to do to address those things? And uh I think that so so fixing your brand is about uh celebrating the strengths that you have, and it's about identifying and seeking to close those gaps. But I think all of that, Tommy, sort of flows out of your values. And uh, if I had uh a dollar for every company that has done uh sort of a strategic analysis, a strategic uh plan and report and never done anything with it, I'd be a wealthy man. So oftentimes people will uh get the data, get the research, uh, get the analysis, and then just go back to doing things that the way they were. And I would say this, Tommy, that so one of the things that I'm saying to organizations is that they are oftentimes so focused on widgets and tasks that they really don't make the time for people. So they say in their value statements that people are our greatest value, but our values are demonstrated by how we spend our time. And if we're not investing any time in people kinds of things, yeah, that's interesting, Eric.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

I may take a different approach. Um, and the question, one question is uh is branding identity. So I'm I'm not a branding expert, I'm not a marketing expert by no means, I'm not a communications expert. Uh, but here's what I do know about branding is that branding and brand is basically the reputation that others have about you, right? For example, that uh when we think of Mercedes-Benz, what comes to mind? Just think of all the words and descriptors that come to mind, right? Some may say expensive, high quality, German. Uh, we're thinking of Mercedes-Benz here. We're thinking of different models, uh uh, industry leader, uh, long history. That's the brand that people have about Mercedes. If you ask Mercedes-Benz, what are you? They may say automobile manufacturer. Two different things, right? So we don't Mercedes-Benz may not consider themselves expensive. The value and input into us building this automobile is at market or above market, not necessarily expensive, right? Uh, we may have some quote-unquote luxury lines, and the consumer may say the brand of Mercedes is luxury. That might be a match. What I think is, in addition to what you're saying, brand, any person or any organization must first think of what their identity is. What is their mission? What is their bottom line goal? Really? So if it is to like Proctor and Gamble, their mission ultimately is to have a PNG product in every household in the world. And so the brand packaging, because they're they are consumer goods packaging, the brand packaging changes based on the different households there are in the world. So you can go to one place in the United States in a particular product, a brand at PNG looks a certain way, that same product, i.e., brand in another country looks completely different. There's a completely different experience with that brand. And so I would say to companies that first, who are you? What do you do? Right. How do you do it? How do you get there? And how long will it take? Those are the questions from a branding perspective. If there's a pause or a hiccup or you're not achieving that, saying, How do you get there? I have no idea how do I get there where I'm trying to go. Let's take a look at your brand. Where are you marketing? And if you're marketing in soil that's not reaping the outcomes, right, then you have to pivot. I have a sales strategy, right? It's very tactical and strategic. I've researched and and and studied organizations that are conglomerates, right? What does the$100 billion company do? The Apples of the world, the Microsoft's of the world, and how did they monetize their brand? How did they build interest in their brand as the go-to or the only? And so with Microsoft, one thing they did was their philosophy is that they wanted to create the self-thinking machine, right? And that self-thinking machine was just an adaptation of a person's mind. And so they created a personal computer, which is the extension of a mind. So it was very personal, the PC. Their competitor, Apple, went in a different way. Two different brands, but they both have their core identity. They are, in this case, competing against, you know, this for the same market share, same space. But the community at large, absolutely, they know the difference between Microsoft PCs and Apple products.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Absolutely. And let me provide a different additional uh definition here, and then I'm going to talk about my own personal brand focus. Uh, so let's look. Branding is the consistent experience and perception people associate with you based upon what you say, do, and how you make them feel. So that's one. Way of looking at branding. Uh, as I've been working through, so I met with someone a couple of weeks ago, Tommy. I mentioned it to you. He was an expert in branding, doing a lot of work around LinkedIn and use a lot utilizing LinkedIn. And so uh he talked to me, and you know, the cost of that might have been something like$30,000. And so I finally said, let me just see what chat can help me and how can AI help me look at this. And so I asked AI if I could uh sort of take my LinkedIn page and input it and could it and you know, give me an analysis of strengths and opportunities. And it did that. Uh, and one of the things that it mentioned, Tommy, was Eric, it's important for you to identify your signature message. Signature message. It says, every great consultant is known for one great idea. Uh Amy Edmondson, psychological safety. Uh, trying to understand how creating psychological safety within organizations allow them allows them to achieve more. For Simon Sinek, it is uh asking why, sort of, you know, the sort of getting to why, uh, and really saying that uh what you do, you have to ultimately ask the question, why am I doing this? Why is this important to me? And sort of how you use all of your energy should be sort of harkened back to why, why am I doing this? And so when I think about my work in the world, Tommy, it's really to create uh what I believe is that people-centered workplaces drives performance. That if organizations are focused on their people uh and how they treat their people and how they listen to the people, how they respect the people, both their employees and their customers, that drives performance. And so then that is the central, that's the signature message that I will take from now to the end of time is really how do I get that in front of people and sort of brand myself, my company, as this is what we do. So anybody that's looking for this, then I want to be the go-to resource around that. And so uh it's exciting to really look at what you believe, uh, what you stand for, and then how do you find people that are interested in that?

SPEAKER_02 46:31

All right, so bit of a challenge for you. Okay, this is this is good conversation for me. Hope it is for you, community. So uh in five seconds, what is the brand of integrity development corporation?

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Um, it is integrity. I mean, it is, you know, our brand is that we feel like we were born to connect people to each other in respectful ways.

SPEAKER_03 47:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Make it plain consulting, we don't make it worse, we don't make it difficult, we make it plain.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

I love that. And every time you say that, I'm just so moved by that because that speaks volumes, Tommy. It really does. Say it again.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

Yeah, make it plain consulting, we don't make it worse, we don't make it plain, make it difficult, we make it plain, right? It's been the same for 30 years. Our tagline has been the same for 30 years. We haven't changed. Right. And our tagline is make it plain consulting, helping individuals and organizations uncover their inherent strengths for sustained growth. That's how we started. We will probably never pivot from that. The question that I was have I'll I have for you, a second question that I have for myself as well is uh, has your personal brand in developing and continuing to grow integrity, has that changed over the years?

SPEAKER_01 48:09

Strategies change, uh, but the my values don't. So I know what I was born to do. You know, God created me to reconcile people one to another. So that's that's what I was born to do. Uh, how we do that and the language that we use to make that happen, and some of the tools that we use to make that happen are constantly evolving, especially with technology. I think that every company has become a technology firm. And so you've got to really look at how you can use the resources and tools that are available today to help people achieve, uh, because at the end of the day, my brand is trying to tap into people that are looking for this. So I'm not trying to serve everybody in the world. I'm I'm interested in people that are trying to accomplish what I'm best at.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

Yeah. So again, for make plane, still have the same question for you, Eric. Uh, for 30 years, make it plain consulting has been a human resources management firm. That's how we started. That's what we've been doing. That's what we are going to continue to do. We are a human resources management firm. We have four lines of business. We have our human resources management, organizational assessments, we have people assessments. Uh, we anything that deals with people, right? Then we have our workforce training, and that is moving people from one skill set and competency to another skill set, competency, ability, and the application of those new skills, uh, workforce development, performance coaching, executive coaching, career coaching, life coaching, legacy coaching. And legacy coaching is with when those individuals who are looking to sunset a career and move into retirement, what is the legacy that they leave? Literally, the brand in the organization, a real footprint, a practical and tangible footprint that that leader has left in the organization. And oftentimes that's by way of a process or some cultural norm or value. And then we have economic inclusion. And that's our line of business where we help developers build vertical or horizontal bills. We help them meet their subcontractor goals and or their work for workforce goals. So those four lines of business are encapsulated in the human capital, human management business. We believe that people, processes, and culture uh are in interline interlinked. However, that culture is not run by bricks and mortar, chairs and desks. Processes do not just happen by themselves, and people change every day. So if you want to really, if you have people and you want to make your people and your processes and your culture better, then consider make it plain. We won't make it worse, nor make it difficult make it plain. What's integrity development?

SPEAKER_01 51:23

Well, I mean, we're just like you. So, you know, we have a similar uh sort of body of work that we do. Uh, we come at it from different ways, we use different tools, but we are really trying to do the same things. Uh, we have sort of an executive, uh sort of talent development aspect of what we do at integrity, that whether that's doing executive searches or whether that's helping to develop people. Uh, we do assessments, and so we really help organizations to understand and become more knowledgeable about their culture. We do individual assessments, whether that's you know, 360s, uh, that I think all leaders need to be open to. It's funny that we're doing a 360 right now, and some of the leaders are really complaining, but while they offer feedback. So they're offering feedback about the process, but they're not open to feedback in the process. So that's kind of hilarious. Uh, but we also do training and facilitation work, and then we help organizations do sort of culture change kinds of things. And I think that really at the end of the day, there are three layers of our work. Uh, sort of the the first layer is sort of leadership development, that as you develop leaders, we have something called the five essential uh leadership skills. Uh, a lot of people just define those as soft skills. We call them essential skills. So the outer layer is uh leadership development through these five essential skills, and then that drives culture. We look at culture through the lens of core, which is culture, ownership, respect, and engagement. So we believe that leaders influence the culture, that everybody throughout the organization has to take ownership. The culture can't be just designed by the executives, got to be owned by everybody. And then at the end of the day, we're trying to create more respectful environments and workplaces. As we do that, we increase engagement, we increase performance. And then at the core is people-centered, sort of the people that when you really develop an environment that they can thrive in, then what I believe, Tommy, is that inclusion unlocks potential. It unlocks the potential of the individuals, it unlocks the potential of the organizations. And as I right now, I'm just kind of laughing about what's happening in our country. As you move from a model that is inclusive, Tommy, and you move to one where I can just pick my friends and pick people that look and sound like me, you can see that you get less competence. And that's the thing that I don't think people really understood before now is that there was a reason why diversity DEI came about is because we wanted to make sure that we were opening up the aperture and the opportunity to be able to tap in to the best talent that's available. And if you allowed any of us, Tommy, to simply select people that we were comfortable with, that would agree with us, that would say yes, that we were going to get idiots and fools and people that were less capable of uh of delivering added real added value and knowledge. And if you look at what's happening right now, you have to ask yourself the question: is this the cream of the crop? Are these the best minds that are available? And I would suggest to you that without inclusion, there is no way to have the best minds available. And if you're in a world that's competing for talent uh and ultimately survival, then you want to be armed with the people who deliver the most and have the greatest.

SPEAKER_02 55:02

Yeah, that's a good point, Eric. Appreciate you sharing that because we're talking about branding and uh how others may think of you or the business. And so part of my questioning was around some knowledge and learning that I've acquired over the last several years around branding of myself and business. And what is that? That although for 30 years, Make It Play Consulting has been and will always be a human resources management company, probably 80%, maybe 70% of people hold on to that. I you go to our website, that's what it says. You talk to me, that's what we I say. You talk to my staff, my professional staff, that's what they will always say. You talk to our clients who we've worked with over some time, that's what they will say. Well, they're an HR firm doing a lot of different things, but mostly, as you mentioned, people-centered. But then there's 20% who have a different impression. And impression is we heard you say you're an HR firm, we've seen your HR processes, but the training that you've done for us twice has been in the diversity, equity, and inclusion space. We thought you were a diversity, equity, and inclusion company, and that's your brand. We say no, right? That is not right, you've never said that, right? Right, right. And so my question is uh for for make it plain, I want to say it for the umpteenth time, right? Human resources management, right? Eric, if anyone has a brand of your company that is D E I A M B, right? Diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility, and belonging. If they have that impression, how do you respond?

SPEAKER_01 57:08

That's good, Tommy. Uh, first of all, I really don't waste any words on trying to uh dislodge that view of us. If that's how you see me, that's fine.

SPEAKER_03 57:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 57:23

Uh, because uh there's still value in that message. In other words, we do believe that organizations succeed if they are open to the diversity of talent that exists in the world around us. Uh, that if they then take that talent and say we want to be equitable and how we interact with you and deal with you, and that our interest is in being inclusive, just because uh somebody else has sort of tried to redefine DEI, sure doesn't impact me at all, uh, you know, uh other than it does impact our business. Uh, but at the end of the day, uh I've got to be, I'm going to be for many people who they believe we are. And so uh you just have to kind of live with that. Uh, but now I'm pivoting some of the language to fit where the marketplace is today, but the values that undergird what we do, they don't change.

SPEAKER_03 58:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

We believe in people, we believe that when you care about people, when you love people, when you treat people fairly, uh, we do not have to own the missteps of DEI. We don't have to be how people have negatively defined that. I don't have to accept that. Uh, but certainly a lot of people from a bias standpoint try to hoist that up on us. But I think that you waste energy if you spend time trying to you know dismantle that with individuals.

SPEAKER_02 58:57

Do you do you believe or know that you've lost uh business because of the brand association to DEI?

SPEAKER_01 59:05

Yeah, yeah, I think so, uh Tommy. Uh, because when you uh get a strong reputation in a space that people have defined a certain way, then yes, you you still uh people see me and they still believe, no matter what I say out of my mouth, no matter what my website says, no matter what they still see me as that sort of a caricature of DEI. But that doesn't bother me because uh people were just doing DEI from a performative standpoint, many of them anyway. So, you know, they didn't understand what it was really about anyway. Would you consider your company a DEI company? Well, that's part of what we can do, but no, we're a management consulting firm. We've always been a management consulting firm uh that is focused on creating people-centered workplaces. Even when DEI was hot, we weren't training people on racism and sexism, all those things. We weren't doing those things. We were treating, we were training people how to create a respectful workplace that worked for your employees and your customers. That's what, and at the end of the day, my main message is that we got to love each other and respect each other. And when you do that, you achieve more. That's simply what we say. When you love and respect people, uh, treat them with decency and integrity, you gain more, you become more successful.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:26

Yeah, I know we're wrapping up soon. We have another question, and I guess we may address this and then close out the show. Um, so the next move would be rebranding.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

Yeah, I think that that's a part of what you have to do is you have to sort of uh pivot your your known brand to language that more depicts where people's minds and where the new language is, but it doesn't, I don't think it shifts your values and the heart of who you are. Uh but you have to make sure that you are communicating that in ways that are relevant today. I think that uh since we've been in business, Tommy, the language around DEI has changed. It changed from affirmative action to race relations, then to race and gender, and then from diversity, it started there, then diversity and inclusion. So it's always had to be agile. The language has been agile. Uh, and as you continue to learn, you also get more tools to help convince people that it makes sense to deal with each other in respectful way.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

So in our case, uh we we haven't rebranded, we've actually amplified what we've always I like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

Yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:50

I like that. So again, if if we are a human resources organization, we focus on people. Folks may have different perspectives of DEI and all that good stuff, but that's not who we were, right? We were people-centered organizations, to your point. So we've been just amplifying. Do you have people in your company? Do you have people that are your customers, patrons, consumers, clients? Right. Are you a person? Right. Amplify the people. People are first, and then there's processes, that's the that's the management, right? And then there's the culture. Right. So we have to think about if you're an organization, think about again what's your mission and values, and where are you going? Right. I share that. Where are you going? And I would recommend from a business and a branding perspective, do not only think about the present or short term. Because the terms, the definitions may change, right? But the value, the work may so we have to think 25, 30, 50 years in advance. When I started my company in 1996, right, that's exactly what I was thinking of. Right. Even today, I'm thinking of all right, what how do people interact with one another in the workplace? Because now today we have AI, and that's going to be a potential crossroad in 10 or 15, 20 years. The automobile manufacturing industry was impacted by artificial intelligence, robots, human beings, people were losing jobs, still are. But then you have 10 people on the line putting the widgets in, they're taking shifts off. You have robots doing it, they don't need sleep, they just need maintenance and just need maybe one person taking care of them. And so I'm thinking Ford said, you know, we build automobiles, Mercedes-Benz, we build automobiles. We're going to interject smart cars or electric cars. Sometimes they do well on the market or not. And some brand reputation of those companies, when the products don't do well, right, say, you don't do that well. Right. What they do is amplify what they are. Right? We don't just make electric cars. We introduce that product to the market. It didn't do as well as we thought. You all poo-pooed it. Now you're thinking negatively against us. Hold on. What we are is automobile manufacturers. And we have to just remind you of the history. You know, the cars that you wanted and have, that's ours. The cars that you will have will be ours. Right. It and so that's what we do outside of rebranding. Again, we just really elevate and highlight, spotlight what we have always done. Stay true to yourself as a person. That's your integrity and character as your brand.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:12

Stay true and as a business. Right. And I would say that uh, you know, you've heard people say people don't care uh what you know until they know that you care. I would say that whether it's Mercedes-Benz, because for me, my my view around Mercedes Benz is not the commercial, it's the experience that I had driving Mercedes-Benz. And that experience wasn't that great. And so as a result, I remember when Japanese automobiles were laughed at, that they were little toy copycats of American cars and the whole world was laughing at them. Uh, I ask you a question is the world laughing now? They're not. Uh, because they went towards excellence in such a powerful way that their brand shifted because of people's experiences with them. And so That's what you're saying, Tommy. Uh, whatever you say to me at the end of the day, it's what I'm delivering that uh that makes a difference. Community, this has been a powerful conversation today. Uh, we thank you for giving us some grace as we continue to elevate. I've been working with my little uh ear, ear uh monitors, in-ear monitors. But Tommy, you sound amazing in this. And uh we are grateful for you, community, chiming in on things that matter uh to each of us, to you and matter in the world. And Tommy, you want to close us out?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:35

Again, thank you for joining us every weekend, Saturday mornings, some earlier than others, but we always are blessed and appreciative of you showing up. Join us next week on another episode of Diversity Conversations. Take care, you take care.