Leadership That Works: The Truth About Equity, Inclusion & Power | Celeste Warren

In this powerful episode of Diversity Conversations, we sit down with diversity champion, global leader, and author Celeste Warren for an honest and deeply insightful conversation on leadership, equity, and the evolving landscape of inclusion.

From her early beginnings shaped by her father’s pioneering role as the first Black principal in his district, to leading global DEI strategy at the highest levels of corporate America, Celeste shares the experiences that shaped her voice, her mission, and her unwavering commitment to equity in action.

Together, we explore:

•  The real meaning of equity — beyond buzzwords and into action 
•  Why inclusion must include everyone to truly work 
•  The tension leaders face in today’s political and corporate climate 
•  What organizations are getting right… and where they are falling short 
•  How leaders can navigate fear, resistance, and misinformation 
•  Why the future of leadership depends on honesty, courage, and alignment 

Celeste also shares her powerful framework for understanding equity through the “fence and rocks” analogy — a practical and eye-opening way to understand how systemic barriers and access intersect in real life.

This is not just a conversation about diversity — it’s a conversation about leadership, truth, and the future of organizations.

🔗 Connect with Celeste Warren:

Website: https://www.crwdiversity.com

Explore her work, resources, and books, including The Truth About Equity

Diversity Conversations, leadership, equity, inclusion, DEI, diversity and inclusion, inclusive leadership, workplace culture, leadership development, change leadership, organizational culture, business leadership, equity in action, Celeste Warren, DEI strategy, future of work 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to Diversity Conversations, where we engage in thought-provoking dialogue to identify leadership solutions to today's most challenging conflicts. Stream live each week, Saturday, 9 30 a.m. to 11 a.m., hosted by Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Strategists and CEOs Eric Ellis and Tommy Lewis. Join us and add your voice to this engaging diversity conversation.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Good morning, Greater Cincinnati, Northern Kentucky, the United States, and the world. My name is Eric Ellis, and I'm the president and CEO of Integrity Development Corporation. And I'm joined this morning by my good friend and brother, Tommy Lewis, president and CEO of Make It Plain Consulting.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Good morning, Eric. Good morning, T. What's up, baby? What's up? Hey, it's another beautiful Saturday morning. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Seven years, almost eight years, we've been doing this Saturday morning. Right. Our audience continues to grow globally. And thank you for those who always join us from the West Coast in the U.S., those who are joining us across the waters, and are obviously our beloved and beautiful producer who's joining us from Monterey, Mexico. You know, Lydia is a gem, is a real, real gem. So excited to be again here again this morning. Uh we have a guest, but uh how was your week this week? Tommy, I had a good week, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

I was uh uh where our guest is. I was in uh Philadelphia this week speaking at a leadership conference, uh future food industry conference. Uh they've had me speak for the last five years. They have this week-long conference for up-and-coming executives in the food industry. And uh man, I was just uh excited to be there. There's a lot of young people that are looking forward to my session because their predecessors, peers, and bosses all said, when you get there, make sure that you uh uh get to Eric's session. So I was grateful to have that kind of response. Uh I love the team that operates this conference. They're really top shelf, Tommy, real professional. Uh, I've met a good friend uh that uh uh was in the military as a brigadier general, uh, who is now uh at Harvard and uh one of the speakers each year. And this year I also had a chance to uh uh make acquaintance with uh Michelle Mace Kieran, who is a retired uh F-16 fighter pilot.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Uh a woman that just talked about all of her experiences, uh learning, uh feeling imposter syndrome, uh, this notion of uh uh, you know, really just not feeling like I'm the right person for this. Do I have what it takes to be this person? And uh just talking about her experiences, man, and the skill set that she had. She was a Thunderbird as well, and uh just really enjoyed learning. You know, Tommy, I I don't just love going places to speak, I also love going places to learn. And they had an AI X uh expert that was speaking on AI and a lot of uh new things that are on the horizon. And I decided, Tommy, to ask AI to analyze my thinking. I was like, hey, AI has you know been listening to my questions for the last three years. What give me an analysis of the kind of thinker that I am? And it was interesting. I mean, AI sort of chat specifically bends towards empathy and positive kindness, and so it had a lot of kind things to say, but it also gave me some constructive feedback that was useful. It was so valuable that I said to myself, what is it about AI that's nailing this constructive feedback? I am open to that, but leaders are often not as open. And I'm wondering, is there an opportunity for AI to be able to sort of uh you know lean in to help people, sort of looking at what am I supposed to be doing in terms of my job? And and then what are the things that I'm doing that are aligned with that, and what are some things that I'm doing that maybe aren't?

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Hey uh Eric, if if AI would have given you some feedback that you did not agree with, how do you argue with AI?

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Uh oh I yeah, I'm sorry, I'm probably losing my mind a little bit. You know, that's the problem with AI. People start thinking they talk to real people because I will tell AI in a minute. That's wrong. What are you doing? I'm literally telling the computer, what are you doing? That's dumb. I've asked you three times. Now you keep giving the same. I mean, come on now. Okay, so count me out. You know, I'll be telling us my best friend. E, come out the house. Sorry, I'm talking to chat. I gave gave it the name now, Jimmy. Jimmy and the boys. Right, right. He's in there with the computer. They done went off somewhere. Kids had grandkids, right? Right. They have not seen him.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Right. You have nowhere you're nowhere to be found.

unknown 5:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Thanks for sharing that. And uh, when did you get back from Philly?

SPEAKER_02 5:14

Uh so I got back Thursday and uh really uh just had a good time, man. Just uh being in the room by myself. I told a buddy of mine that I wasn't going anywhere. He was like, E man, you gotta still go see the city. I said, See the city? Are you crazy? I'm not going anywhere, I'm going right to my room. And uh I enjoyed getting other work done, watching some basketball. Had a good time. Indeed, indeed.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Our community is chiming in again. We want to invite our community, as always, to remember to like and subscribe. Uh, we do have a guest, we'll bring them up shortly. Uh, this week was phenomenal for me, Eric, okay, because we finally received our four billion dollars to build this bridge. We finally got it. We have been waiting for NTP, which is noticeed to proceed. And the states of Ohio and Kentucky and the federal government said, you have the green light. And in fact, they gave us uh we have$4.5 uh billion dollars uh to do the first maybe 75% of the project, and then we'll get another probably a billion or two uh in the next several years. But it is phenomenal that we're starting to and we're going to uh make sure that this uh project stays uh on time and under budget. It is the third uh largest project in the country. We have the Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore, uh, and then some another bridge as well, another byway, etc. But we're excited, man. We're excited.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Well, talk just for a minute, Tommy, about what your role is with this project and if there's anything that would be of interest to our community around your role, what it is you're trying to do.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Absolutely. So we're the business and workforce engagement consultant, so we are responsible for identifying, vetting, processing all of the 250 some odd subcontractors. So we have a general contractor, they have subcontractors, the subs have subs, and the sub-subs have subs. So we go down about three tiers. We're responsible for ensuring that all construction-related subcontractors are certified, they meet all the criteria, et cetera. And then we have answered opportunities. These are folks who have uh daycares, okay, they have food trucks, they provide water, right? Uh mechanics. Right. So these are the other uh companies that will support the operation of building this highway, by way, and bridge. We're also responsible for identifying and attracting a little bit north than 1,000 workers a day. We need a thousand. And in this region, currently we have about 450 to 500 who are ready to go. Right. We need 500 more workers. Wow, knowing that over the length of the project, folks are going to retire, they're gonna leave. Right. So there's going to be some some churn, right? We're gonna lose about 10 or 15 percent each year in our labor pool. So we're just having recycle that. So that's our job as well. Across this route, Kentucky and Indiana, and folks are coming from across the country as well. So we're excited about that.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

That's good, Tommy. I'm so glad to hear about your role. Uh, community, there's some opportunities in this, and you just want to be uh aware uh that uh Tommy has this wonderfully responsible, powerful role. Uh, you do you have to have body armor in your role? It's already covered, bro.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Deal with the federal government's absolutely showing up. But and and I'm I'm certain that with our guest, right? Uh with her expertise, not just not in specifically with construction, right, but really understanding organizations, yeah, people, yeah, and the kind of the ebbs and flows of the mindset of people, absolutely, man.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

So and right now with the economy the way it is, uh, this is going to still be a ride, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 9:46

It is.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Yeah. And so T Cooley, I know you might be awake on the West Coast. Tommy might need you. Yes, sir. Because of all the crazy folks that are out here.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Tommy, you want to introduce our guest? I'm very, very excited to bring to the stage uh to have this conversation with Celeste Warren. Celeste is a thought leader, a diversity champion, speaker, consultant leader. She is what we call every woman a powerful spirit. Uh we are connected in LinkedIn. I use LinkedIn as a professional network. It's changed over the years. Some Facebook stuff is up on there and got all of this stuff. But I uh uh one thing before we turn over to Celeste and have her introduce herself. Uh I had learned this a while ago, Eric. Someone had told me that it's it's not only what you know, it's it's who you know. Absolutely. I would take it a little bit further in today's world. And this is why I'm bringing this up because of the connection with Celeste. I would say it's not just what you know or who you know, it's who returns your calls. Because we're getting a lot of asked to be a lot of places. And sometimes folks they think they know you uh well when they call me, if I don't know you, I'm not calling, I'm not tweeting back, I'm not eating control all we don't know each other, shutting it down, right? But Celeste answered the call. So we want to welcome to the stage Celeste Warren. Good morning, good morning, good morning.

SPEAKER_06 11:24

Thank you for the invitation, and I love the energy, especially for a Saturday morning. Tommy Eric, you guys are on fire. My goodness.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Thank you, thank you, thank you. We've been doing this forever, we love each other, and we have a lot of great guests that we've done.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Yes, indeed, yes, indeed. How are you?

SPEAKER_06 11:44

I am doing well, doing very, very well. Thank you. I'm in my um just started my next chapter after um almost four decades in working in global corporate organizations and now on my own uh solopreneur, uh, loving it, uh loving it, loving the autonomy, loving the ability to make my own decisions and um and really just living in my purpose right now. It's been wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

That is awesome. Well, Tommy and I have been doing that for decades, and we want to say welcome uh to the team. Uh, we are grateful for the space that we operate in on good days, bad days, when business is booming, when business is light, you're still in charge, and you have the opportunity to utilize every God-given gift that you have uh to think creatively about the kinds of things that you do, and you have firsthand knowledge of the needs that exist out there. And Tommy and I also are resources to you to be able to ask anything money questions, billing questions, all that kind of stuff. We are both open books around that kind of thing because we have found that unfortunately, not enough people in the uh consultative space are willing to share with each other and collaborate with each other. Uh, Tommy Lewis and Eric Ellis, we love each other. We believe that the need out there is far greater than there are people like us that do this work. So you have found yourself two best friends in terms of uh business uh resources that are that are open for you.

SPEAKER_06 13:28

Well, I appreciate that, and I will take you up on it because you are experienced and very successful. So I'm just starting my journey. So I appreciate the offer. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Absolutely. And Celeste, we do know that your time is precious this morning and we respect that. But want to get into a little bit of you know who you are and then tie this into the work that you do, uh, particularly, you know, in the space that you're in right now, but also your journey to now.

SPEAKER_06 13:57

Yeah, I uh people ask me a lot of times that, well, how did you get started? What made you pursue this path? And for me, it started when I was a little girl. I'm from Western Pennsylvania. So I grew up close to the Ohio state line. I was uh about 15 minutes from Youngstown, Ohio. So I know that you know, Western PA, about an about 45 minutes hour from Pittsburgh. And um, my father was the first black teacher and first black principal in that area. And so every day he would come home and we would would be at the dinner table, and my mom would ask, you know, hey, how was your day? What happened today? And we would get a front row seat of hearing from him the challenges, the obstacles that got in the way of him being able to be as successful and be looked upon as an equal in that environment, in that system, the education system in that district. And he didn't just he wasn't the type of person who just would be complaining. That's not how he was. He was a disciplinarian, he was, he was um just you know a champion for diversity and inclusion. So he would talk about what the obstacles or the barriers were in his way, but then he would talk about what he did to get around them or to go through them or over them or under them, whatever he had to do to overcome those obstacles and barriers that he was facing. And so that was something that stayed with me throughout my childhood, throughout my formative years, my young adult years, and adult years. And so every job that I did, I did it through a lens of asking questions around whatever I was creating, who is it going to be something that everyone is going to benefit from? If not, why? And what do we need to do to course correct and correct it? And so that's from the standpoint of you know, the alpha to omego of hiring, what I was doing. I was in human resources for most of my career. And so um I would look at people, processes, practices, systems, and say, okay, what do we need to do to make sure that it's gonna benefit the employees that are a part of this organization? And that's kind of it's just been instilled in me throughout my life.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Let me ask you a question, Celeste. I'm gonna answer a question. Are you familiar with uh West Middlesex, Pennsylvania?

SPEAKER_06 16:36

Yes, I'm familiar with it. That's where I grew up. I know you know who I am. I when you said Eric Ellis, I've it didn't click to me until I was like, wait a minute, that can't be the Eric Ellis that I know from the Eric Ellis that you know.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

I'm sitting here. Oh my goodness, I know Celeste's with the kids, right? This is amazing.

SPEAKER_06 16:59

Oh my goodness, now here we go, here we go. The connection growing up on the hills of West Middlesex in the campground, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Right, wonderful, another story, indeed, indeed. It is a story and the stories we could tell, right? That's exactly right. It is a crazy small world, and I was sitting here saying you look exactly like yourself, and uh, but uh, you know, that's just a part of our history as well, right? The values of growing up in the church of God and and going to a camp that was all black, a church camp for years and years and years. When you sit where you were outside of Youngstown, I'm like, hold up, I know a Warren family outside of uh Youngstown.

SPEAKER_06 17:42

The Phillips family. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

That's exactly right. Yeah, right, right, right. That's what threw me off, too. Yeah, so I I dated her sister as well.

unknown 17:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

Right.

SPEAKER_06 17:54

Don't tell it all now. Don't tell it all.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Yeah. Indeed, indeed. And thank you for the connection again with with the particularly in working diversity, equity, and inclusion, accessibility and belonging, uh, to the point that you made, uh Celeste, that uh, and Eric talks about this often being people centered, right? So we did not know, I did not know that you and Eric had some affinity, right? And in this world, it's only six degrees of separation.

SPEAKER_06 18:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

So as you as you think about you know, transitioning from Western PA going into undergrad, graduate school, just spreading your wings. Can you talk about you know an experience or two that was really pivotal in you even going further along in your journey?

SPEAKER_06 18:51

Well, you know, there was a couple of things. One, it's a story that my dad told me when I was in college, and it helped to really shape my work ethic throughout my career. And he told me a story. I was I was home one of the summers um um in during my undergraduate, and we were driving somewhere, and he was telling me this story about when he was teaching. So he went to he got his master, his degree in education from Pitt, then he got a master's degree from Westminster College, and then um he was hired at the school district, and his his uh discipline was English, but he was hired as the gym teacher, and there was no gymnasium. So he had to teach people, teach the students out in the parking lot. So he was out there in the parking lot, and he said that when he first started teaching as the first black teacher there, the the um parents of the students would come and park their cars and watch him as he was teaching their students in the parking lot. Each period they would come, the parents would come. And so he's telling me this story, and I'm getting angry, and I'm like, you know, well, gosh, like what did you do? What did they think that you were gonna do to him to do to the kids? And and um, and I said, What did you do? And he said, I just did my job, I taught them, I developed the trust between the students and myself, they came to respect me, and then one by one, each of those cars started going away until the parents then began to trust me. And then he had this illustrious career throughout his life, um, to the point where they named the elementary school in that school district after him, the Russell C. Phillips Elementary School. And so that stuck with me because for me, there are always gonna be these people that are coming at you and and um trying to tear you down and talking behind your back and trying to sabotage you, or don't believe in you, and and wondering why you're in the room and what you've got to do. There's always gonna be that, especially in corporations. And so what I remembered from that story was you continue to keep doing your job. You hold yourself up, you hold yourself up from the standpoint of not compromising your own dignity, your own respect, your um your faith, and continuing to keep plugging forward because eventually people will see what you're about and know that you're about doing what needs to get done on behalf of the individuals around you. And so that was something that really stuck with me throughout my career and and really um characterize how I approach my work and the things that I do to this day, to this very, very day. Um, there's an old song back that that that used to sing, What God has for you, it is for You and I truly, truly believe that there's no room for jealousy, there's no room for well, why are they getting this and they getting that opportunity and this and that? It's when it's for you, when it's your time to step into whatever it is that you're supposed to step into, you'll you'll be ready because at the cross, those crossroads of preparation and opportunity comes success. And so I I that was one thing that really stuck with me, that story that he told me. And then another thing, when I was first coming into um working in the workforce in the uh corporation, I first worked for the old General Foods, and you might remember General Foods. Oh, yeah, and I can remember um having a conversation with someone who was working, I was working late one night, and this was in White Plains, New York, and and um um you know in my little cubby hole, and uh the uh one of the janitors was walking by and he was having a conversation with me, and I learned so much about the people in the organization that I was working in in the department I was working in, about sort of the unwritten rules of engagement and all of these things. And I would I would actually each night before I went home, I would I would look for him and I would learn from him and talk with him about it. And uh you know, I'll never forget those conversations because he taught me so much, and in that respect, I learned that you don't where you learn is not just necessarily the bosses or the bosses' bosses and all of that. You can learn things from everyone, and if you have a learning mindset, you take that with you because you can learn from a lot of different people from different cultures, different identities. And if you close your mind off to that, then you're doing yourself a disservice.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

That's powerful, and I would say that that uh embodies the value structure that would bring you to inclusion, that you you live that and you gain value from not just judging him as the janitor, uh, but seeing him as a resource. Both of us, uh, which we didn't know, have similar backgrounds in terms of my father. So people consider me a pioneer in this space because I've been doing this work for 34 years. But my father was a pioneer before me, but he also, uh his family, 12 brothers and sisters, grew up in an all-white town, that they were the first black family to that town. And uh, you know, uh sharecropping 300 acres, you know. Uh, but that's what set him on the uh the road to diversity and inclusion. And I see that you have that same sort of your family was uh breaking through. They were pioneers in a community, and so it gave you some natural lessons around uh diversity, equity, inclusion. Let me ask you what how are you feeling right now about your transition from corporate America to your own business in this climate?

SPEAKER_06 25:30

Oh, I'm I'm I'm definitely feeling good, Eric. I a lot of people, everybody asks me that. It's like, well, how are you doing? And how are you how are you that's how you that? The the interesting thing, you know, the beginning of 2025 was strategic chaos. The executive order came out um around, you know, you can't do a legal diversity and inclusion. So the first half of the year, I was still working as a chief diversity inclusion officer at Merck. And there was a lot of education that needed to happen. There was a lot of um going back and forth with different folks, especially you know, the legal department and all of that, because everyone was running scared and not thinking necessarily over the long haul. You know, this too shall pass. And so um when I when I transitioned, then it was okay, now how do I get my message out into the world so they can understand and be sort of that voice of sanity in a in an environment where there was misinformation and strategic disinformation as well, purposeful disinformation around what diversity, equity, and inclusion really was. And so um my purpose began in educating, building awareness um in across a variety of different industries, across universities, nonprofits, high schools, uh, you know, just talking with different people so they understand what it really is and how everyone wins when we get it right. Right. And so the transition has been wonderful because it's my voice, how I want to elevate my voice, whoever I want to elevate my voice to, and there's no restrictions, there's no um no one telling me, well, you can't do that or you can't do this. And and you know, I had a lot of autonomy compared to some of my peers in other companies that had the same role because I was blessed to have been in that role for over 10 years. So I had a lot of trust with the with the leaders in the C-suite leaders of CEO at the time. And so they they knew I wasn't going to do anything that was going to cause harm to the organization. But even with that autonomy, it's you you still are stifled because you're an agent of that organization. Absolutely. You have to be careful about what you're saying, etc., because you're you're you're speaking on behalf of not just yourself, but that organization as well. So when I transitioned into this uh entrepreneurship, it was about my voice, my organization, speaking my truth, the way I want to speak it, to who I want to speak it. And um, and it's just been it's I tell you, it's been releasing, free, and it's so wonderful to walk in your purpose. So very, very wonderful. People, you know, they'll say, Oh, um, are you keeping busy? And I say, Well, when you're doing something that you love, it doesn't feel like being busy, you're walking in your purpose, and that's really, really important for me.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

That's awesome. That is beautiful. Uh, as you were speaking, I was reminded of opportunity I went to in 2004. It was the Chief Diversity Officer Summit with Janetta B. Cole down in Greensboro, North Carolina. She was hosting this every year for the top 500 or a thousand CDOs, chief diversity officers from across the world, if not across the nation. And I remember at the time, I think the moniker was just diversity or diversity and inclusion. That's what it was. And in one of the sessions, um I shared with some other folks that shared the same sentiment. I was asking the question where are we going? So from affirmative action to diversity to equity or inclusion, equity, belonging assessing assessment. I I was just very curious not to be snarky, just like long-term, like you said, looking long term, 10, 15, 20 years, where are we going? If you would just for a moment, if we're landing on the topic of equity, would you share with us what is the truth about equity?

SPEAKER_06 30:07

Sure, sure. And and let me preface it by saying, you know, that journey of where are we going, that was the right question to be asking, too, especially back then. So kudos for you for asking it. When I first got in the role, um, like I said, it was around 11 years ago. It we looked at it very myopically, very about representation, butts in seats. How many this do we have? How many women do we have? How many black folks do we have? How many Asians do we have? And and it was all about counting people. And we had to evolve to a place where we weren't just counting people, but we were making people count.

unknown 30:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 30:52

And that was really how when I first got in the role, it was about I want to call my organization a center of excellence because I don't want us to be limited to people understanding diversity, equity, and inclusion from a people standpoint. And that's the foundational element. You want to make sure you have it have the diversity in the workforce. But I wanted people to understand that you have to think about it from a cultural standpoint, an organizational standpoint, and a business standpoint. And so I purposely called it a global uh center of excellence, you know, diversity inclusion center of excellence. And so we we it was, you know, people, even people that were, I call them my diversity ambassadors that that were passionate around diversity and inclusion, they still didn't understand equity. It was sort of this enigma wrapped in a question mark. And so the way that I like to explain it, when you think about diversity, equity, and inclusion, diversity are it's just differences in people, those you can see and those you can't see. That's the diversity of people, their identities, their skills, their capabilities, their life experiences, their cultures, all of that. Inclusion is how do I leverage all of those differences and all of those people and get them to a collective purpose? And for an organization, that's the mission or vision of that organization, the purpose of that organization. So you surround them with a culture of inclusion so they have a sense of belonging, of feeling valued for what they bring to the organization, that you're leveraging their skills, their capabilities, their life experiences to get to that collective purpose. So you surround them with a culture of inclusion. Equity comes in, those are the acts that you put in place to get those individuals who are all coming from different places, different starting lines. You have to make sure you understand those different starting lines, understand those people, and put the acts of equity in place to get them to that collective purpose. So, so equity is about, um, you know, I use in my book uh the fence and the rock uh analogy. You've seen that illustration where the first illustration, they're they're all standing next to a fence, three individuals, and they're all standing on one rock, and the person on the right can't see over the fence, person in the middle can barely see, person on the left can clearly see over the fence. Then you get to the second illustration, the person on the right has two more rocks, the person in the middle has additional rock, and they can now see over the fence. Those rocks are acts of equity, so you can make sure that people have access to opportunities. But what's happening now, in in that's been really happening over the last few years, especially the person that was on one rock in the first illustration and on one rock in the second illustration, well, they're looking to their right and they're saying, Well, how come they have three rocks and they have two rocks and I only have one? And they don't see the fence in front of them. And in my analogy, the fence represents all of those isms: racism, sexism, homophobia, all of those different isms that didn't crop up overnight are going to take a longer-term strategy to try to dismantle because you're trying to dismantle them from institutions, from systems, and move those biases out. And so we have to do the equity, the rocks of equity in the midterm and short term, but we also have to tear down that fence that which takes a longer time. And we also, too, need to go back to that individual that's standing on one rock that's asking all of these questions because they're just oblivious to the fence in front of them. They don't know how it manifests itself to his colleagues to the right. They don't know how those isms manifest themselves in the organization. The the marginalization, the the being put down, the talking over in meetings, the uh marketing and sales strategies that don't meet all of the customer needs, all of these things they don't see because they've always been able to see over the fence. And some people would call it privilege. So we have to have that conversation with that individual, and not that it's our job to just educate, but it's our job to provide, excuse me, provide them with the resources so they can educate themselves. So making sure that they understand that that fence is there, this is how it manifests itself to your colleagues. And oh, by the way, we need you to be an active ally. And by active, we want you to get in the boat, grab an oar, and help us to row up the river.

SPEAKER_05 35:56

Right.

SPEAKER_06 35:56

And that's what the work that needs to be done in diversity, equity, and inclusion. We can't just put the acts of equity in place. We have to tear down the fence, we have to have these difficult, a lot of times difficult conversations with people who haven't necessarily embraced it as of yet, because we're not going to be successful if we are just talking in an echo chamber. We have to get more people that are going to readily be able to help us move this agenda forward so we can have sustained change and truly tear down that fence. Because the last illustration, the fence is torn down, the rocks aren't there, and everyone can see the mountains ahead. The person on that was standing on one rock in both the first two illustrations, even their aperture has been widened because when the fence is torn down, they're benefiting because it's like, wow, I can see the bottom of the trees now, I can see all of these things that I couldn't see before because I just didn't notice it.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this, Celeste. My my concern is whether or not education can in fact get us there. And I'm one who's big on educating. We've had 50 to 70 years to educate people in corporate America around this reality. And what we've gotten for that is in the last, I think last year, it was white people in this country that feel more discriminated against than any other group. And so that's shocking. And part my view is that we have to help people get there through their own pain. That people don't uh uh, you know, I I've told the story about my kids at Christmas time, they would be pushing us down the street, uh, you know, down the steps at uh 1201. It's Christmas, and they tear open their Christmas gifts. But once they put their pile in front of them, they looked around to see what everybody else got.

SPEAKER_05 37:52

Yep, yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

And I can't, I'll never forget when my boys, I got three boys and a daughter. When they saw my daughter got the easy bake oven, they said, She's mom and dad's favorite. They got her easy bake oven and cooks real cakes. And I don't think people ever outgrow that notion of looking around to see what other people are getting. And many of them have looked at DEI as a birthday party for other people.

SPEAKER_03 38:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Uh how do we how have you seen us successfully break people out of that? And then a second question I want you to respond to is you came through the CEO Action Now, where all the CEOs signed uh that big agreement that they're and now the question is, where are they?

SPEAKER_06 38:38

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

So talk to us about how we how your view of how we get people there when they've seen all of this insight as something for somebody else who didn't need it.

SPEAKER_06 38:50

Yeah, so I'll I'll tell you kind of what I did. When I first got in the role, um there were the first couple of years, I really did focus on the marginalized groups, the underrepresented groups. Um and in conversations with some of my white male colleagues, because at this time I've been in the organization, you know, almost uh between 15 and 20 years. And so I would have conversations with some of my white male colleagues, or they would have conversations with me around how they were feeling and how they were feeling left out and how this isn't for me, and not in a um not in a point your finger at me accusatory way, but just how they were feeling. And then these were people who who trusted me to have that conversation with me. And so these were behind closed doors, and so what I the conversation that I had with them, and this was also too around the Me Too movement, yes. Okay, you remember the Me Too movement, and and there was a fear with especially with white men, a fear. They were talking about how they weren't gonna, they were afraid to mentor women anymore and all of this other stuff. So there was more of an opening up, if you will, privately among um some of some of my white male colleagues. And so the conversations that I had with them, I was able to meet them where they were to have the conversation. Because, you know, whether that be fear, as some of them felt in the Me Too movement, whether that be I feel left behind in earlier diversity and inclusion movements and strategies, you you f you need to find out what is it that's going on with them that they aren't embracing it. And once you're able to have that conversation with them and say, okay, I hear what you're saying. Let me talk about you, let me talk about why this is beneficial to you. And and you have to have that conversation with them. And it doesn't happen in one conversation, maybe two or three or five or four, but you have to have that conversation and where they'll be receptive to hearing it. In a lot of cases, I had to widen the scope of people understanding what diversity, equity, and inclusion was because it wasn't just about a moral imperative, it was a business imperative.

SPEAKER_05 41:27

Right.

SPEAKER_06 41:27

Because if we're gonna be able to understand our customer base, marketing 101 tells you if you take in any marketing course, it tells you you have to understand your customers. You have to segment your customers, you have to understand how your product or your service is gonna benefit them. And on the other flip side of it, you have to understand what's getting in the way of your product or your service being able to benefit them. Why isn't it benefiting them? And so I did a lot of work with business leaders in a lot of different spaces. And in and for me, it was in the healthcare industry. So our products, our services, our medicines, our vaccines, our um and and medicines, why aren't people of different uh identities benefiting from our products and our services and our medicines? And so analyzing the customer base became part of and integrated into the marketing strategy, the marketing model. And and so when you're having conversations with folks, if they don't embrace it, if they don't get it, then you have to meet them where they are and find out what keeps them up at night, and then put an intervention in place that's going to help them to meet whatever that need is. Now, everyone, Eric, isn't saved, sanctified, and filled with the Holy Ghost or not. And so we have to get meet them where they are, and for a lot of them, right, right, they understand green. They're they're there for a purpose to make sure that they are meeting the needs of the organization, of the shareholders, of the stock stock, you know, getting our increasing our stock price, and so they understand that where diversity, equity, and inclusion can help them with that, that's when they embrace it.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

And I would finish your thoughts, and then I'm gonna ask you. I would say that uh it seemed to me that corporate America certainly understood, especially if they were dealing with uh the retail, they were dealing with consumers, uh, they understood, they learned the lesson well how to sell products to diverse communities. So they got that because that was gonna mean that they could bring resources back in. I'm not sure that the same organizations always got the we need to do that internally to make sure that we're taking uh advantage of the best and brightest from all communities. Some got it, many didn't. I'm not one that's ignorant to why many of them have gone silent. Uh it's a political environment that's very difficult.

SPEAKER_04 43:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:56

Uh, but do I and I think I'm hearing from you. That there's more people that are supportive there than may say that publicly today. And some of them are just kind of waiting it out. Is that your your sense?

SPEAKER_06 44:08

Yeah, it's called the um, oh, what uh the the the model that people are using right now is how do I make sure that I can still do this work because I know it's critical to the success of my organization, the success of my culture, success of my workplace. How do I make sure I'm still doing this work, but I'm not in the bullseye of this administration? Because many companies, much of their US, if they're a global company, much of their US revenue is is from the federal government. So companies that that that are relying on that revenue, they they had they were walking a tightrope.

SPEAKER_02 44:52

Absolutely. I get it.

SPEAKER_06 44:54

And that tightrope was such that we know that it's critical. Not, you know, we know its foundation to our us as a company. We've been we've been touting this for a long, long time. And so now that you know we have this administration, we have to now say, how do we continue to do the work, but stay out of the crosshairs of this administration? Because we can't jeopardize, because think about it. If you jeopardize for some half of their US revenue, depending on the industry and depending on the company, came from comes from the federal government. If you lose that revenue, you are having to have to lay off hundreds, thousands of your employees, and you can't get that back. And so, um, so so you know, I understand the tightrope that a lot of companies are on. I you know, I was I was part of that, but we still had to continue the work. We still had to continue doing the work. That was critically important because in times as this, people are gonna remember what you did during this time. People are gonna remember the type of leader you were, they're gonna remember the type of organization that you were, and when this passes, and it is going to pass, because the history has taught us that the pendulum swings back and forth in a time of large social activism, civil rights movement, the Me Too movement, all of these different things, 2020 and the murder of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor, the pendulum swings to uh in in years after that uh conservative sort of stance. Right, but then the pendulum swings back. Now, ideally, we'd like the pendulum to just stay in the middle, but history has told us that that's how it swings. It swings back and forth and back and forth. And so this too is gonna pass, but people are going to remember now how you acted during this time, what you did, what you said, what type of leader you were, what type of organization you were, what did you stand for? And they're gonna remember that. So when times start to swing back, they won't forget. And it's hard as an organization when you lose customers, and Target will tell you this when you lose customers, it's hard to get them back. It's hard to get that credibility back. And it's the same thing within your employee base. You lose the credibility of your employees, it's hard to get that back.

SPEAKER_05 47:21

Right.

SPEAKER_06 47:22

And people may be job hugging now because of the economy, but the economy is going to change, it always changes, and people will vote with their feet and they'll leave organizations because the values that they have do not match the values of the organization. And I'll tell you, um, also Generation Z and Generation Alpha that are coming up. You said you have you have kids that are in those generations, I do too. They're more wired now to go to an organization if they choose to go to an organization. Because they have lots of opportunities now. You know, there's these there's roles and different um careers that didn't even exist five, 10, 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_05 48:09

Absolutely, right?

SPEAKER_06 48:10

And that's going to continue to be the face. Who who heard of a uh um what do you call an influ influencer? You know, we didn't hear about that back in the day.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Right, the whole gig economy, they've got everything they need to do. Absolutely, right?

SPEAKER_06 48:23

Absolutely. So they have choices now, right? And if they decide they want to come to an organization, they want to come to an organization that has the same values and belief system that they do. And they they believe in that truly, truly. We said that about generation Y, but this Generation Z and Generation Alpha coming after them, they truly, truly believe that. And they have choices now. That's why you see a lot of these colleges and universities that are saying free tuition for students whose parents make under a certain amount because the war for students, because students are saying, you know what, out of high school, I don't know about all that debt. I can do this or I can do that, I can go into a trade and make more money. I read an article that um plumbers are making more than most lawyers now, and lawyers have all of this debt. So, you know, it just it they have choices. And so the war for talent for organizations is gonna be so tight for years to come because of this this the choices that these generations are the next generations are taking. So if you are acting a certain way now, they're gonna remember and they're not gonna want to come to your organization.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

You know, this conversation is tremendously rich for me, Eric. I know it is for you. And I know uh we're getting close to your time uh for another commitment, and thank you for your time today. And I was reminded as you were sharing, uh Celeste, that uh you know, a lot of organizations uh that we're talking about they either stop doing the work, pivot pivoted from the work, or push. Stop, pivot, or push. And the push was toward mission.

unknown 50:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

So we're pushing toward our mission, our values, and connecting our mission and values to the customer, to the patient, to the consumer. I have a question around those who are in the work, sure, the words may have changed, but the work continues. There's some psychological impact of the dismantling of the work and the work for human beings that were championing the work. That's good. And so, like COVID, we have a whole generation of students who are in school during COVID, and there's that that loss of whatever during COVID away from the the human kind of connection with people being in brook uh brick and mortar, yeah and looking at a dot on the screen, and we're seeing that COVID loss or deficit. My question is for those like you and Eric, myself, maybe even those who are still in their organizations, right? How do we become whole again and sane because we are impacted by what's happened and what has happened in the past?

SPEAKER_06 51:34

Well, I tell you, um, I've had a lot of conversations with colleagues that are still in organizations, still doing this body of work. And I tell them, you have to take time for yourself. Good counseling is so critically important, so very, very important. If you don't take time for yourself to really sort of center yourself however you do it, whether that's you know, meditation, prayer, watching movies, taking naps, whatever it is, working out, but you have to take that time for yourself. And because if you don't, you can't go into the job every day and face all of this um craziness that you face on a day-to-day basis. You know, for for me, throughout the 10 years that I was in the role, there that it was the most tumultuous time for chief diversity and inclusion officers. We're talking Trayvon Martin, we're talking about xenophobia, we're talking about the war with Ukraine, we're talking about what happened October 7th to the Jewish uh community, we're talking about the pandemic, George Floyd, Me Too, all of these different things happen. So CDOs that that you know have that longevity during that period of time, like I did, you have to find a way to re-energize yourself so you can go and do what you need to do on behalf of others, thousands of people who haven't found the courage yet or that power to elevate their own voices. For me, that's what gave me strength, knowing that I'm not doing this just for myself. I'm doing this for tens of thousands of people who they just haven't found the strength yet to elevate their own voices. And then for also the ones who did and have found the courage to tens of thousands who have found the courage to elevate their voice, I am championing them as well and speaking and trying to to um further elevate their voices as well. So so for me and and for anyone else, it's about your self self-care, your mental health, right? Staying attuned to that and making sure that you take care of yourself. Because if you don't, there's no way you're gonna be able to survive in this current combine environment.

SPEAKER_02 54:08

Love that. I would uh say that for me, I pivoted, I saw this day coming. And so eight years ago, I pivoted to something that I call core, uh, which stands for culture, ownership, respect, and engagement, and really focusing on creating people-centered workplaces. Uh, and I believe uh back in the 90s, I was doing this work and hearing from white males why is everybody only concerned about our biases? You know, that doesn't feel fair. And so I made some adjustments then. I think for those that are in the DEI space that simply only wanted to work with marginal, historically marginalized people, then they're certainly the saddest. But I think that you actually had to be representative of everybody. Anyone is who is marginalized for any reason other than a lack of talent, skill, and ability, I think we got to fight for. And what I'm finding is that none of that is going away with you looking at what people are bringing into the workplace today in general. They're stressed out, they're burnt out, uh, economically challenged. And so we have this new opportunity to be representatives of all people. Is that how you're kind of seeing things as well? Laura?

SPEAKER_06 55:26

Yeah, well, that's what inclusion is. Inclusion is everyone, right? And and the Civil Rights Act, you know, when it was written back in the 60s, you know, what Johnson, his his thought process was, you know, we have to help marginalized groups because there's nothing that's helping them. So we have to have affirmative action, pro-action, to be able to try to level the playing field. That was the old executive order, 11246. And then when Trump came into play, he he threw that executive order out and created the other one and saying there shouldn't be any illegal DENI. But the Civil Rights Act, the law says that you can't discriminate against someone based on their race, their gender, all of these protected statuses. And last time I looked, white is a race.

SPEAKER_05 56:16

Right.

SPEAKER_06 56:16

You know, right, wrong, or indifferent. So the law is the law. And so, you know, inclusion means what are you doing to make sure that everyone has the access to opportunities? That's kind of the work. We're not going to survive if we just look at it. And and and the backlash, some of the backlash that exists in the DENI space is because there is a uh a portion of the population that feels I was left behind. You only cared about people of color or people with disabilities or LGBT plus. You didn't care about me. Right. And then you see this, you saw, you know, that the administration capitalized on that.

SPEAKER_05 57:01

Right.

SPEAKER_06 57:01

And so basically, what we have to do is say, okay, the work that we're doing, we're trying to get to that third illustration where the fence is gone, the rocks are not needed, and everybody is benefiting from the opportunities. And and you know, just like Martin Luther King said, we want a day where people are judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin.

SPEAKER_05 57:23

Right.

SPEAKER_06 57:24

Um, and so that's kind of where we aspire to get there. We're definitely not there yet. We're in that second illustration where we have to put the acts of equity in place. But but um, if we try to help people to understand that we're trying to get to that third illustration where everyone is gonna benefit, but we got to do it right. We got to do everything that I talked about tear down the fence, put the rocks of equity in place, and also have these tough conversations and dialogue with people.

SPEAKER_02 57:53

Let me ask you one last question. I'm gonna turn it to Tommy. Uh my view also, Celeste, is that oftentimes we have, as people of color, we have looked at the government, we have looked at institutions to save us in many ways. And I don't think that we fully trust each other very well. And so my view is that I feel like God has said to me during this season, Eric, our answers aren't in Washington. They're not with Republicans or Democrats. It's really with each other, sort of tapping our networks, leaning into relationships with other people of goodwill, not just people of color, but other people of goodwill that want to try to do the right thing. Are you seeing that as a part of your solution as well? Is that we can't keep looking to institutions. I feel like oftentimes we don't even we lack the trust and the relationships, even among other people uh like ourselves. And maybe we need to spend at least as much time there as we spend trying to educate corporate America.

SPEAKER_06 58:56

Yeah, you know, I believe that you can't can't move forward with just a segment of the world.

SPEAKER_05 59:06

Right.

SPEAKER_06 59:07

So you have the private sector, you have the public sector, you have um policy, um, you you you can't move forward with just segments of it because something is gonna drag you back. And so um, I just did a TED talk um earlier this month, and I talked about the cost of standing still. And the essence of it was if we want momentum, true momentum, true sustained change, we can't just rely on individuals because grand gestures of one, two, three, five hundred people aren't just gonna cut it. Right, we have to evolve and change systems, infrastructure. We have to look at the essence of institutionalization society to try to change it. We have to we have to do it, and I'm not talking about boiling the ocean, but taking it and having a purposeful plan for how we boil one, two, three, four entities, and then those four can boil more, and so on and so on, and we have the ripple effect, but we can't stand still in these in these systems because the systems are standing still now, they're not pliable, they're not agile enough. And so we have to move forward in the system, but we also have to move the system forward, and that's the work that needs to be done. You can't have a uh, you know, if you have a stool, a three-legged stool, and tear off one leg and expect the stool to still stand. It's not gonna happen. We have to do work in every entity, that and that's kind of just how how my experience has been.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:45

Yeah, it seems like, sorry, Tanya, it seems like I'm shocked at how ignorant people are in mass. And so the question becomes can you actually get a critical enough? Now, my faith, and I'm an optimist, so yes, I believe the answer is yes, but it shows you that that's not an easy thing to do because people can be led towards foolishness simply because of their love of their own identity, and all of us have to watch out for that. And so, one of the questions is can you establish and create that critical mass when the people at the top are trying to keep their what they have and gain more? So that's a question for another day, but just a thought.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:27

Yeah, it's great time again with Celeste Warren, diversity champion speaker, consultant, leader, and author. Woo! Celeste, as we let you go, thank you for staying with us a little bit longer than expected. Quite right. How might people get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_06 1:01:41

Well, you can get in touch with me on my website, www.crwdiversity.com. I love the engagement. Please sign in. Once you we can connect with each other, you can get uh my newsletter, and I don't send a newsletter out every week or anything like that because you know there's enough emails in our inboxes. Um, but uh that's one way to do it. You can get my book also, the link to both of my books um are on the website. And there's also, if you're a manager, a new manager, emerging leader, um, and you want some um help with how do I put equity in action every day, there are some mini modules that are also on my website, the equity in action uh module for managers that you can also purchase as well for a very nominal, nominal fee, because I want people to be able to go from intention to action with equity and applying it every day in their work because that's how you'll change cultures.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:44

Well, this has been a real treat for uh me for sure, uh, for Tommy and I and our community. Uh Celeste, we really appreciate you joining us this morning. And uh, Tommy, you want to close us out with our community?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

Again, audience, community, you know what we do every weekend, and this did not disappoint. Celeste Warren, stay in touch. We'll lift up each other, the village, not only in our respective villages, but across the nation and across the world. Thank you again for joining us on another episode of Diversity Conversations. Take care. Take care now.