Give People Spa Moments | Leadership, Inclusion & Human Connection with Lisette Martinez Peacock

In this powerful episode of Diversity Conversations, Eric Ellis and Tommie Lewis sit down with Lisette Martinez Peacock, Chief EDIB Officer at the National Audubon Society, to explore leadership, belonging, cultural awareness, and the future of inclusion work in today’s rapidly changing world.

Lisette shares her personal journey growing up Puerto Rican in Detroit, the childhood experience that shaped her passion for inclusion, and the lessons she learned evolving from early DEI work into a more strategic, human-centered approach to leadership.

Together, they discuss:
• Why inclusion is about helping people feel they belong
• The importance of slowing down to truly connect
• How “Spa Moments” can transform relationships and workplaces
• The future of DEI and why the mission still matters
• Leadership, empathy, accountability, and cultural competency
• Why organizations must align values with behavior

This episode is filled with wisdom, practical insight, and deeply human conversation about how we create stronger communities and workplaces through understanding and connection.

Chapters:

00:00 Welcome to Diversity Conversations
04:52 Camp Joy, Leadership & Choosing Better Habits
15:18 “Where Do I Sit?” — Lisette’s Childhood Story on Inclusion
24:40 From Diversity Policing to Human Connection
34:15 Is DEI Disappearing? The Future of Inclusion Work
45:08 Stop Expecting to See Yourself in Others
54:20 The Power of “Spa Moments” in Leadership & Relationships
1:03:12 Values, Accountability & Final Reflections

To know more about Lisette’s work → salinasconsultants.com
To connect with Lisette → linkedin.com/in/lisettemartinez

Diversity Conversations, Lisette Martinez peacock, leadership, diversity equity inclusion, belonging, cultural competency, workplace culture, human connection, leadership development, inclusive leadership, DEI podcast, empathy in leadership, spa moments, organizational culture, emotional intelligence, diversity and inclusion, workplace belonging, values based leadership, diversity podcast, Tommie Lewis, Eric Ellis

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Diversity Conversations, where we engage in thought-provoking dialogue to identify leadership solutions to today's most challenging conflicts. Stream live each week, Saturday, 9 30 a.m. to 11 a.m., hosted by Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Strategists and CEOs Eric Ellis and Tommy Lewis. Join us and add your voice to this engaging diversity conversation.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Good morning, Greater Cincinnati, Northern Kentucky, the United States, and the world. My name is Eric Ellison. I'm the president and CEO of Integrity Development Corporation, and I'm joined this morning by my good friend and brother, Tommy Lewis, president and CEO of Make It Playing Consultant.

SPEAKER_05 0:46

Good morning, Eric. Good morning, T. What's up, baby? What's up? What's up? Oh, it's exciting. It looks like we are uh athletic, we are NASDAQ, right? You know, football, Barcelona, Bar. Good morning. Hey, it's great to be together. Uh it's it's it's always great to get up early in the morning. Uh to have conversations, to start the weekend. Uh, some people's weekend starts on Friday after work, right? Uh, and ours do as well. Uh, but it's always great to get up early in the morning on Saturday to have conversations.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

I agree with that, Tommy. We've been having powerful conversations for eight years and uh over almost 400 episodes at this point, and it's really been a growth experience. Uh, personally, professionally, we've had a blast. Tommy, how was your week, man?

SPEAKER_05 1:32

My week was great, Eric. Uh, last night had the great opportunity uh to have a table. Make it plain had a table at the Camp Joy Dance for Joy. Okay. So we I invited some uh strategic friends uh to join us at the table. Uh, had a table full of folks, and uh Camp Joy is an uh outdoor, indoor uh kind of camp. It's it's uh a little north of 75 years, I believe. Don't quote me. But uh uh actually 89 years, because next year would be its 90th year. Okay. Sorry about that. Okay, okay. Uh but for our young people who are you know either need medical attention, they suffer depression, uh, they suffer some type of ostrization, they're quote unquote unique or different in some way. And then it also offers programs for adults, the same thing. So your leadership programs go to Camp Joy and they spend a few days, if not a week, uh, in fantastic facilities. Last evening, Dance for Joy is a fundraising effort where uh you know we have a meal, then there's a silent auction, there's a paddle call auction, and uh then there's a band with music. And uh we we raised, I say we because I used to be on the board for a number of years.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 2:57

We raised uh in about I don't know, maybe 40 minutes,$200,000. Um throwing their paddles up, and it's always phenomenal. Right. Uh we had a dance troupe who are young women who are wheelchair bound, and uh they are assisted by another uh dancer, so they have a dance performance. Man, it's it's wonderful, and it was a great way for me to kind of end off the week in joy because I had joy all week, Eric. There's some down points, but the opportunity just to come together uh with some friends, and and and I'm not I'm not gonna call out my one friend, female friend, who's married to a good friend of mine. This lady is so funny, Eric. Um, and I want to call her out. She's been on the show, she and her husband. Right, right. I'm not gonna call her out. Uh she is hilarious, right? And that was one reason why I invited her to just bring levity, right? Right, and to allow her to be who she is with that levity. Because I know in her work, in her position, it it can be heavy, right? Heavy. And she works with young people, so it could get very, very, very heavy. And uh, she had not had a particularly good week per her description. Um, but we kind of threw our hands back, Eric, and like let this conversation go where it goes. And she is this mic on, and she's killing the world, killing the world, man. Right, and so that's that's uh very healthy to me to laugh.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

I love that Ken Wilson says, I want some joy too. Yeah, indeed. We have the family get together. He said, Have you heard my new stand-up routine? I know it's uh amazing. He's the funniest guy on the planet. What's up, kid? But uh Tommy, that's good news, man. I'll tell you that I can understand that about uh Camp Joy because there are so many people that have had life-changing experiences at Camp Joy. Uh, a lot of times uh I went out there for over 20 years with Leadership Cincinnati, uh taking leaders through uh a diversity weekend when they were learning how to trust each other. Uh they were you know climbing high rope exercises, low rope exercises, challenge by choice kinds of things. But when you are doing a trust fall and it's hard for you to trust, uh just getting up the courage to do that is something that puts an imprint on your life. And I really believe that in many ways, the entire country is in need of a Camp Joy experience, ain't it? Yeah, just take everybody there and uh and let us do some things that uh cause us to have to depend on each other, have to uh sort of uh verbalize our fears and uh and then try to work together to get through those. Tommy, this week was a great week for me as well. Uh I am uh uh Kim Wilson, you'll be glad to hear this, that I've just I've decided to make better choices uh in three areas ultimately, uh in in my health area in terms of what I eat, and then in exercise in terms of just making that a weekly uh part of my routine. And then in terms of my spiritual walk with God, I want to I want to sort of make better choices in all of those areas. Uh last week I didn't get a great report from the doctor, and that's all I needed uh to finally make the decision that I'm not gonna keep eating like a kid. And so I literally have partnered with AI uh to assess everything that I've ever eaten, you know, all the things that I like. I put them into AI and said, uh, give me uh sort of an analysis of this. Is it sort of a low impact, negative impact, uh, you know, a no impact, moderate or significant? And I threw in cornflakes, horrible. I mean, I threw in rich cracker, horrible, you know. And uh, and and ultimately I have put together a plan of things that I can eat, snacks that I can carry around, like cashews, pistachios, almonds, and walnuts are better nuts. But you can only eat like 10 or 15 of those. So you don't want to be just, you know, chunking down everything. So I'm grateful that now coming up on a week, I have cleaned out my refrigerator, thrown out the all the stuff that brings death, and replaced it with things that bring life. Uh, several years ago, uh, God gave me a revelation that I was putting premium gas in my car and less than regular in my body. It takes a while sometimes, but finally three years later, thank you God, uh, I got it. I got it. And I'm a kind of person that when I latch on to something, I'm like a bulldog. You know, I latch on to it and that's where I am. And so I'm grateful for that because uh, Ken, I was saying this before uh the podcast started, that I actually don't fear death. You know, I believe that uh, you know, if we believe that there's life after this one and that we're uh headed toward heaven, then why would I fear that part? I just don't want to be limping into the uh along the journey because of the way that I've operated my health. So I'm I'm grateful for that. The other thing that I'm grateful for, uh Tommy, is that I have a client in Louisville Water, I want to just shout them out, uh, that has a CEO, uh, Spencer Bruce, uh, a senior vice president of HR, Terrence, and a director of diversity, Kathy, who have all allowed me to partner with them to develop and implement innovative solutions. And we've done that for the last seven years. And uh, so I'm I'm sort of full circle on something. We started with inclusion surveys across the entire organization. Uh, and then we went to uh Tommy 360s. So we were giving feedback to every leader. In the first year, we allow leaders to select their own raiders because we don't want people to be intimidated by feedback. We don't want them to think that it's a witch hunt, that somebody's out to get them. So they get a chance to select their own raiders. And then finally, we got a chance to work with in-tech teams because what I've seen over the course of my career is oftentimes organizations that bring Tommy and I in, we'll train the senior leaders, we'll train management and supervisors, and then finally the employees. But we don't often get an opportunity to work with in-tech teams and take those skills that are being trained in the classroom and bring those into that team and the work that they're doing on a regular basis. And so uh they've allowed us to do that. And I'm seeing the power of that. I've sat on the other side of a virtual session when somebody was literally in tears because of the positive feedback that they got from people, and they say they don't hear much positive feedback. So just grateful for that experience and what it allows us to do with other clients that we've been working with.

SPEAKER_05 10:23

Yeah, Eric, that's great to hear. And congratulations on your renewed focus, right? I'm gonna call it that. That's right. A redirection, right? These are some of the things you've you've known, right? You've done in the past incrementally, uh, but now you have a renewed focus based on those numbers, right? Right. And those numbers are simply a reflection of uh of behaviors, that's right, right. So I'm hearing a a renewed focus on behaviors, first mindset that will then drive behavior to get a different and better outcome. Congratulations to the reinvention of Eric Ellis.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

I'm excited about it, and I'm not gonna be a nuisance to people that are doing things their way. I was living like a 20-year-old kid forever, and finally I started to tie together uh emotional eating. Tommy, I wouldn't accept that uh consciously if somebody just threw it on me. Yeah, but in in fact, one of the ways that we deal with stress and pressure is just eat whatever things we want whenever we want to. And so I realize that I've been operating out of that as well. And now I'm learning how to sit with myself, uh, realizing that every great choice that I make is benefiting me, my body, and the and the way I show up in the world. So I'm grateful for that.

SPEAKER_05 11:50

Eric, we have a uh fantastic guest today. Uh, and before we bring our guests up, we always want to remind our community to thank you for liking and subscribing. We always want to have that being or that ring come up when it's time for our conversations. And we always want to invite you, as always, community, to chime in, share your thoughts, your questions, your input as we have these conversations with our very special guests. Today's show, Eric, we have a woman that I have uh deeply respected. Uh, and I'm going to share a story a little bit later after we bring her to the stage of a moment that I had worked with her in her previous role in Cincinnati, Ohio. And I was a consultant working with her, and we had a meeting, and uh there was something that transpired, and the way she dealt with it. I want to be specific, the way she dealt with the person was phenomenal. And I was taking notes as a consultant because people were talking, right? But she doesn't know to this day that when she was engaging with this particular person, I was taking notes on how she was doing it. She was cooking me up. Right, right. I'm a consultant for her, right? Learning. Oh my god, right, right, and man, she wrapped up criticism in such a lovely package, right, right, right, and said, Happy birthday, right, right. Gifted this man a dose. Okay, Lisette Martinez Peacock is an author, she's a coach, she's a consultant, she is the paramount diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging leader. Right? Or you can start with equity, diversity, and inclusion, EDI. We're gonna bring Lissette to the stage and say good morning and welcome.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Good morning. I am doing great. I'm so happy to be here and seeing my my brothers from Cincinnati. Um, I've been gone for a little while, but Cincinnati is still a part of my heart. I love it. This is where I start my career, and I'm excited to talk to you both.

SPEAKER_05 14:20

Well, it's was great to have you. Great to have you. Thank you. So I want to ask you before we get into who you are and and those people that those experiences of people who that have made you who you are today, where are you right now in this work?

SPEAKER_00 14:36

In this work? Well, um, right now I work for the National Audubon Society. I'm their chief EDIB officer. Um, the National Audubon Society is an organization that is about conserving land and it's powered by birds. And we have a huge footprint because I've moved from working in cities and regions to now Western Hemisphere. So our offices span from Canada all the way to Chile. Uh we have 33 specific centers within the United States and then sanctuaries all over the hemisphere. And it's amazing to work in an organization where diversity, inclusion is really the foundation to help bring us all together. When you have that many different cultures, you have to really begin to understand and become aware of how and who, you know, how to interact with people from around the world and you know, bring us together so we're engaging and do can do a good job for you know the things that we have to do every day. So I have the opportunity and I'm blessed that I am able to continue to do this work with a fearless leader and an incredible board that uh supports everything about diversity and inclusion.

SPEAKER_05 15:57

Yeah, that's great to hear. It's great to hear. And I'll finish the story that I was introducing you with, Lisette. Okay. This is in the time when you were in the healthcare space, as you remember. And uh we have been working together, and thank you for engaging, make it plain at the time. We have been working together around some organizational uh as well as people-centered area, people-centered DEI work. And we, you and I were preparing to uh offer up a strategy or plan to the stakeholders. And we met in a boardroom, and there was another physician. There were a couple of people there, but one physician, as uh Lissette, was laying the groundwork of the work that she had been doing for a couple of years, right? And it wasn't new to anyone around the table, but she was laying the groundwork of the next step. Here's where we're going going forward. And uh I don't remember the physician's name, so I I can't, I don't have a name to call that. This doctor uh leaned in, he said, Well, that's all good, but let's talk about the impact of uh opium, right? And uh, I'm a consultant, you know. I kind of leaned back because Lissette is the boss, right? Right, right. So I leaned back and I, you know, kind of gave her a little side eye just to so I'm in cadence with her. And she was as beautiful as she is physically, right? She's even more beautiful intelligently, right? In intelligence and spirit. And so she smiled and she allowed this seasoned man to say his story. Eric it's a setup, it's a setup, it's a setup, right? Right and then she leaned up, Eric. We're not doing that. Right, and began to academically break him down of the why, right? So that is just the tip of the iceberg of the story. I took many notes, but on that day, I had increased respect, and on that day I really started to understand who Lissette Martinez Peacock was, right? Because I had always had my consultant guard up, meaning, you know, we were friendly, sure, but when I'm working, I work for you. So I'm not gonna get too loose with the guy too. So I was guarded. And uh, we had a conversation, she and I, after the meeting, right? And soul sister number one, and uh I was like, oh my gosh, like you smacked that and in the back of my head, I was like, uh man, Cincinnati's not gonna be the whole Jew, right? You know, when you see certain people in their energy area, oh man, right, the world is gonna grab you, and that's what she's doing right now from the hemispheric work, but also global. And so I want to turn it over to Lisette and first say thank you, Lissette. Thank you for coaching in that moment of how to deal with I'm gonna call it some ignorance. And then so, so thank you. But we do want to learn more about you and what made you and makes you who you are. But I wanted to give you an opportunity to react to that to that story if you remember that that moment.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

There, there, you know, there have been so many incidents of of that nature, and it I don't remember specifically that one because it's been so much. But I will say this when I first started my career in diversity and inclusion, um uh I'll I'll have to mention his name because I know you know him. Keith Borders was my very first manager. Um, I worked at Laxotica Retail as a buyer when I first started working at Lexotica and moved into DEI because of Keith. And um I'm saying this because uh we had a conversation about what it looks like to do diversity and inclusion in healthcare. And I had talked to several people and said, that's that's a tough nut to cry right there. Healthcare is difficult. Um, and I always remember that because I and and I'm saying it because I thought I could do everything. I I thought I had the power that I could just change people and I could do it. And and I started my career off in DEI incredibly wrong. I failed a lot. And um, healthcare is where I actually learned how to really think corporately and think about making DEI a foundation and really helping doctors come out of their way to better understand how you're gonna help patients from all over the world. And I had to do it more strategic and have had to really learn how to speak doctor, and I had to learn how to speak nurse, and I had to learn how to speak staff in a way that was different than what I thought diversity and inclusion was when I first started.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

That's powerful. And I want to add to this before you go further, that uh it really does take a skill set and a personal value set to do what Tommy said that you did. Uh, because a lot of times we'll come out of left field just fussing and arguing and and and fropping at the mouth, and you don't look any different than the people that you're talking to. But when you have grace and humility on the inside, when you have courage and a conviction on the inside and an ability to Do those things in respectful ways. That's what makes it so impactful because people see the rightness of your principles and the foundation that you're talking about. They're seeing it displayed and modeled in the way that you're communicating. So I've always seen that over the years that I've known you. And uh just congratulations for who you are and what you bring to the table, include your willingness to admit I was all wrong and I had to go into learning. Uh, a lot of people never ever can admit that they've been wrong. And all of us that's the only way that you can be a lifelong learner is to recognize shortcomings. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Yeah, absolutely. I had to really get out of my way and really also understanding um that I needed to stop expecting to see myself and other people, that everybody was their own unique person, and that I also wasn't gonna um gain or really become successful by being what some folks call the diversity police. You know, I'm not trying to create an eggshell environment, I'm not trying to push people away. And the best way for me is to always listen and better understand, help people, you know, tell me what they mean, you know, clarity is kindness, and then from that frame how I'm gonna respond and frame it in a way where I also um am compassionate and empathetic towards the person who is speaking to me, um, to still allow them to have dignity, right? I think we we don't want to slap or punch people because we're trying to bring people, we're trying to bridge the gap. We're not trying to push people away. And so, you know, the best way to do that is to really listen and better understand, understand what their perceptions are about what they're talking about, and to then, you know, really come together with solutions on how to move forward.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

Love that. We're gonna need an army of people to have that understanding because our nation and the world is at a struggle point right now, and you're not gonna get people to move by just pointing fingers at them and yelling at them how wrong they are. Uh, you've got to display some things around empathy uh and respect. You've got to do what it is you're asking others to do. Um you're gonna need an army of people to help us to sort of uh restore, if you will, and then build on that uh around civility and and caring and understanding.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 24:38

You talked about Keith Borders, and we know Keith uh and the borders uh great people. And uh so can you can you talk a little bit more about uh a few other uh experiences or people uh even prior to coming to Cincinnati or just your your upbringing that had oh sure so so I was born and raised in Detroit, Michigan.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Um and um my dad moved us, uh he was in the auto industry and moved us to Ohio when I was 15. So um I I graduated from Mason High School. I think that's the one common thing Cincinnati people have is where you at when you ask them where they went to school, they start with high school, right? Um so I graduated from Mason, but I I also finished my college um experience at the University of Cincinnati and then I got my master's at Thomas More, which is just right over the river. Um, but I will tell you, uh I didn't start my career in diversity and inclusion. I started my career in the purchasing world. And I was a buyer and a purchasing manager. I did inventory control, I worked at Toys R Us, I worked at Chiquita, I worked at Macy's. Um, Lexotica Retail was the organization that um I worked in. I was a purchasing manager for Sunglass Hut. And I also did Watch Station at the time, which Watchstation doesn't exist anymore. I was that person that closed them down. So um, but uh one day I saw that there was a position open for diversity and inclusion, and to be honest, I was a little confused as to why this Italian company, because Luxotica, they manufacture frames, but it's a monopoly of what they do, and they're located in Italy. And, you know, their headquarters in the US was in Mason. And I thought to myself, what do they want to do with diversity and inclusion? So I did have a couple conversations with Keith, but I'm gonna tell you when the description came out, the word inclusion sh shocked my soul for a moment. I and it actually took me back to when I was a little kid. So my background, as you both may or may not know, I'm Puerto Rican. I come from a Puerto Rican family. My family, and I was born in the 70s, so Detroit, Michigan was very black and white. I was there were never any other Puerto Ricans ever around. And I was always the kid in school where people always ask, What are you? You mix, I used to call glowworm, all kinds of names. And I would always tell them I'm Puerto Rican. And they would say, Well, what's a Puerto Rican? I'm like, I don't know. Then we know we never learned any of that in school. And I remember that in the sixth grade, um, I went to elementary school in Ypsilanti, Michigan, and our sixth grade classes, all the classes went to a camp uh in the summer because that was the way to bring us together as we were going to be split in middle schools. So I was coming out of our first lunch, we were coming out of the can into the canteen with our lunch trays, and I'm noticing in the canteen that my white friends were on one side and my black friends were on the other. And really, it was the only time I really said, Where do I sit in my head? You know, school always got made fun of and everything, but here there was a distinction because we were all together at one time, but there was a selection that they made on their own that the white kids were gonna be over here and the black kids are on here. They've written a book about it. I know you know about this, but it still continues to happen today. So the counselor's looking at me and she's like, Lisa, what are you doing? I said, Well, where I don't know where to sit. I'm 12, I don't know where to sit. She said, Well, you can sit anywhere. And I said, But my white friends are on this side of the room and my black friends are over here. Where do I sit? She turned around and I tell you, she didn't even have to ask the question. She made everybody move and mingle. And she did it all weekend. So when I when I when I tell you, when I was at Luxotica and I saw that job description and I saw the word inclusion, it was the first time I understood how I felt at 12 years old.

SPEAKER_04 28:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

That was the word. And at that moment, even though I had already started my career in buying, I decided to make a pivot. I said, I want everybody to feel included, and that's my values, that's my anchor, that's where I keep the why as to why I continue to do diversity and inclusion. And so I took that story and I got the job. So I I wasn't of I wasn't the best employee for Keith Borders, he will tell you. But he did give me a lot of great lessons, and it gave me a chance to start over. Um, I had to take a step back, but I was in one of the best cities in the world because we have a lot of Fortune 500 companies in Cincinnati, Ohio. And I was able to partner with the chief diversity officer at Procter Gamble, at Toyota, at Kroger's, at every every organization to learn and get great um mentoring from folks right in that city that helped me really think about how to operationalize diversity and inclusion in an organization and how to listen better and really think at 50,000 feet and not not really be trying to put out fires, but be that person that fireproofs organizations with DEI.

SPEAKER_04 30:07

Yeah, that's a wonderful, wonderful story. Wonderful story.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

Absolutely. And uh so let me ask you this. I I love, I love the fact that you were able to uh partner with, collaborate with, learn from other uh DEI experts in this community that were making progress within uh major corporations. What's your sense of, in some ways, it looks to people as though DEI has been uh or EDIB has been dismantled uh unbelievably fast? Uh what's as as you look at that, and then knowing the work, the foundational work that people were trying to do, what's your view of that? What's your your sense of how that has occurred? Do you think this is just a moment of time? We'll pass through it and come maybe not come back to uh DEIB in the fashion that it's been created, but something new. What's your observations around that?

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Yeah, I like how you I like how you frame that. So it's at the beginning it was hard, right? I think and it was hard for all of us. Um many of my friends, and I know many of your friends no longer have jobs, you know. Corporations have, you know, didn't even think about it and really um shows what their true beliefs are by removing and and and dismantling DEI as a whole. Um you know, I've I've the first week, the next day of understanding what the EOs were saying, the executive orders were saying, I cried because I thought, oh my God, what about me? Right too. Like I have a family, I got a house, I got a mortgage, I got this is what I've known how to do for 23 years. I've been in this field for 23 years. And so then very next day, my boss called the CEO uh of the National Audubon Society and said, You don't have to worry about anything. You're not leaving, right? We're not changing your name, we're not changing your titles. The strategy you put together is not being touched. Nothing. Now, that doesn't mean that we have to change some wording here in a grant here or change a few things here. But what what I've grew to understand, um, and you all probably know Vince Brown as well, Vince Brown and and Janet Reed are are mentors of mine uh forever. And if they if they're listening, just know. And one of the things I learned from Vince is it's not about the words, don't get stuck about how you're saying things, get stuck on the mission. What is our mission? So I couldn't let the words okay. So now we we gotta say things differently. This is a new year for all of us in diversity and inclusion. This is a new way of having to do this work and rethinking how we do it. And I was I'm up for the challenge. So we are here for the mission and we're gonna continue it. Now I feel like it's gonna be back, but I think it's gonna be in a new way. It's gonna be in a different way. Um, I think that we're starting to do that now. Those of us that continue this work, we're figuring it out, we're talking to each other, we're collaborating, we're understanding, we're still tracking this, we're still doing this, we're still working with, there's still education, all of this, but how are we repackaging it and putting another bow on it so that we can continue to use this in the future? So it's it's not you can't quit, you know. It's my 12-year-old self said, I can't quit. This is this is the purpose.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

I was getting ready to go right back to your 12-year-old self because I think that in uh day and time in a country where people feel as though they can only look at that work through a political lens, what you've given us is a practical uh lens. You said that when I was 12, uh, you did your first diversity workshop. Yeah, you basically said to the teacher, where do I sit? And uh and then she looked at it and said, Oh, that is a challenge. And right from your question about where should I sit, she then began to mix people together so that she was giving them something that they didn't have before, an opportunity to come together in a new community, make some new friends, learn some new things. And I think that that's what's at the heart of what why we do this, right? I know what my purpose is. God put me on earth to reconcile people across these differences and to recognize that if we respect each other, if we love each other, that it's good for business. And so I'm just so grateful that you are allowed to continue doing the foundational work, which is at the core of your life. It's like, how do I fit? Where do I fit? I don't want anybody in the world to feel like they don't belong or like they don't fit, and that as we come together, we actually are able to do more, uh, be more, feel better, achieve more. There's nothing, absolutely nothing political about the work that you do. You're not trying to take an opportunity from anybody, you're trying to add understanding to each of us that makes us better, makes us make better decisions. Why is this such an important uh concept, foundational concept in the work that you're doing right now?

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Well, it's so important and the foundation of the work that we do because um you have to have differences in perspectives and how folks think um helps us to integrate our work in a way that moves mountains faster. Uh, you can't have one way of thinking anymore, it just doesn't work. And you can't have a bunch of yes people behind you because you're never gonna, you know, cross the finish line. We got to understand what our end game is. And I mean, when we think about it, the numbers still haven't changed in the census. In the United States, you're still going to see the minority become majority numbers as a whole by 2043, 2044. We're gonna live to see this. So when we when we continue to to grow our melting pot in the US, I would behoove you to better understand, you know, people of color, because if you don't, you're gonna miss the boat. You know, you have different ways of thinking that are necessary for the for the success and the growth of any organization. And that is incredibly important for folks to know. And so for me, uh, you know, we work uh Western in the Western Hemisphere and we have folks from all over. So helping our organization learn and know how to do business in Colombia is incredibly important as knowing how to do business with First Nations in Canada. It's very different, but it's an important piece of how we do work in order for us to be able to move forward and how we conserve our land and really increase the opportunities of policy within the work that we do. And the other thing that I will tell you that is part of our cultural competence is staff exchange. When we can put a staff from Colombia to work in Seattle, Washington, and vice versa, and do that across regions. Now we have people really just in it, learning and experiencing it for themselves because how they do business in Colombia is not the same way they do business in Albany, New York. So, you know, it's so different. So we are we have um uh are are reaching towards building and implementing a staff exchange program that is hemispheric, maybe global one day, but it is an incredible expectation of our CEO because cultural awareness is what's is the key, it's a key performing indicator for Audubon.

SPEAKER_05 38:47

Yeah, I think this is a fantastic conversation, and it reminds me, uh, I want to go back to Lissette when you when you were talking about your your 12-year-old self and uh you were asked the question, you know, what is a Puerto Rican? And you initially said Puerto Rican is Puerto Rican, right? I don't have any other framework of my identity beyond it is who I am, right? Right, and so as you think about this work and sometimes having to explain the work, right? To explain that people are people and they have their uniqueness, they have their characteristics, their personalities, people are people and across pollinating across hemispheres, right, from a talent management perspective. How do you tell someone who may be asking you who are you and what are you doing? How do you tell them that I am who I am and I respect you for who you are? Because they're not they're not really looking at themselves when they're asking the question around EDI or Puerto Rican. They are looking through the fishbowl as if they are not part of the ecosystem. So how do you I don't know if it's defend, how do you educate people that this work also includes them?

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's it all starts with self-awareness, right? Um, for for me. But I I think one of the things that resonated when you were saying this, uh, Tommy, is one thing I had to get out of myself was to um really learn that I had to stop expecting to see myself in other people. And we all get stuck on that, right? And we also get stuck on the fact that we can change people. Sometimes we we get we we say, oh no, we know we can't do that. But at the end of the day, that's what they're trying to do. They know, and it and it's difficult for folks to really understand that. But we got to anchor folks in the understanding you gotta stop expecting to see yourself in others. So learn about who you are. What are your values? Who who are you to the world? What has you know been ingrained in you for you to be able to accept how values are ingrained in others, right? And begin to learn about your own biases to better understand how you are reflecting yourself in others, in your staff, even with your family sometimes, you know. And I think the the the next piece is about understanding different cultures. Now, it's intentionality. You gotta want to do this. If this is something you really isn't is important to you and it's you have a passion for, you have to be intentional about learning. And then the last piece is to, you know, even if you're scared, have the courage to reach out and make a friend with somebody who you don't look like. You know, you have to reach out and become friends with people that just don't look like you. That's incredibly important. So it's about self-awareness, it's about learning about your biases, about learning about different cultures and reaching out and making connections, even when it's hard. This work is not easy. And, you know, I've I've I've found that, you know, our the new generation that we are in wants everything so easy, and it's not. Those hard places where we have to sometimes live and understand are the ones that help us grow and reach different levels, right? I don't want to be stuck where I am. I know that nobody else wants to be stuck either, but you gotta move forward, especially the way the world is moving, in order to advance yourself. But I think the the one thing I like to anchor myself with is to not expect to see yourself in others. Um so I wrote a book called The Spa Zone, and the spa zone is is significant to me, and it actually the idea came from when I was a patient at University of Cincinnati Hospital. But spa means to slow down, be present, and ask questions. That helps reclaim who you are and your relationship that you're trying to build. It's an easy concept, but we live in a world that's so fast paced that people are not recognizing how incredibly important it is to connect with somebody. But they're moving at such a fast pace that they can't do it. And if you can give somebody a spa moment just for a minute, it doesn't take long. For you to slow down, ground yourself, be present in the moment. Because we all say we have good listening skills, but do we really are we really paying attention or are we preparing to answer the question? And ask in you know really good questions as you're listening so you can frame in your mind how this person is, right? Relate to them, you know. Um, I think Tommy, I've I think I've learned this from you. What the platinum rule is is to treat others the way they want to be treated. And the way you do that is you gotta slow down. You can't just keep walking past people and say, hey, how you doing, and just keep going, not even hearing what their response is, right? So so uh to me, SpaZone has been uh um a personal journey for me, and it's one that I feel really strong that could really help change how people interact with each other.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

Right. I love that. I love it too. Uh there are two people that uh you may be aware of Vince Brown and Janet and talked about the power of the pause. So they talked about that. Last week we had on our uh podcast Dr. Melanie Buford, and she joined us, she's brilliant, and she talked about uh the importance of uh people understanding who they are. She talked about there was another concept that she came up with that I thought was so amazing, uh, that so often we are trapped in our own echo chambers, if you will. Uh on social media, we're listening to things that we like. Our algorithms are giving us messages that reinforce our own beliefs and values and thoughts and even biases. How do you help people who are sort of trapped in ecosystems that are reinforcing their beliefs that there is great value in being curious enough to move outside of that echo chamber into a world of other uh value when everything that they're being fed says that there's no use in taking the time.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Yeah, I love that question, Eric, because um, you know, I've battled with this for a long time. You know, one of the things that I I think folks get lost in, um I talk, I talk a lot about leadership. And I believe anybody can be a leader. It doesn't matter if you're four years old, because we learn from our babies, they say some amazing things, you know, right? All the way to you know, it doesn't matter what age you are, you can still be a leader. And what I try to tell my staff and try to tell folks that I work with is that leadership starts with facts. What you hear in social media can be one side of a story. And you can be consumed by the message that is coming from social media about what has happened, that one side. But if you truly want to be a leader and you really want to be part of how we make change, you have to know all the facts. So really be like a champion to research and understand the whole story to better be able to connect and learn. Because if you just do the one story, you're not getting everything. And that's not truly being the right leader. So in organizations, when I talk to managers or, you know, and I've and I've worked at I've worked in healthcare for 12 years, but worked in all kinds of industries. I've always told my leaders that, you know, you they come at me with one side of a story and they're upset and my boss is racist and blah, blah, blah. Okay, I need the whole story. In order to accomplish, you need to do your due diligence and come at me with the whole thing. Because we cannot approach this with pieces of information. So it's important for folks to really take the time, like I said, slow down and understand and research. For you to be a true leader wherever you work, you have to have facts.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

Let me throw one more question, then we'll pass it to Tommy. And this question is a challenge for all of us, all three of us, because of the work that we do. Yeah. Um, my I used to say sometimes when I did workshops that maybe the best place to go to have an honest conversation is to a bar. Let everybody get drunk, and then let's really start having a real conversation. Uh but but I'm gonna ask you this. Um uh, and and and maybe we shouldn't say that there's a right or wrong answer, but my belief is that people have to get to know each other in order to care about each other. So if I don't know you, then how can I empathize with you? And I think that too often when we're trying to do this work simply in classroom environments, that that may be more difficult than how we uh need to do the work in the world. What's your view around uh the energy that we should make uh around this work in organizations versus maybe what should be happening in the broader society?

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Yeah, thank you for that question. Excellent question. It's it's one of the things I mentioned before that I I feel so strongly about is staff exchange. Um when you in a workplace, if you are able to and have have the ability to move people around, it not only helps obviously with you know building scale, creating best practices, you know, we you want to be able to make things more efficient, but it connects people at a different level, right? The concept of of cultural competency, uh, Dr. Mary Frances Winters, I don't know if you you know her uh out of the DCR, she's phenomenal. She she wrote, you know, this incredible process in cultural competency about really um, which includes the power of pause um at the beginning, but really understanding self-awareness and learning about different cultures and really reaching out to get to know people to kind of open up those relationships. Um but when we think about how important it is to um connect with folks, I feel, and I and I'm gonna bring up Janet's name. They they Janet and uh Vince wrote a book called Intrinsic Inclusion, helping folks to understand the importance of how inclusion helps to bring folks, and if you can be that intrinsic in being inclusive, that will help also with that intentionality of understanding. But it it takes it it doesn't happen overnight. It takes a lot of conversations to sit with folks, and we have to be patient to meet folks where they are, help them understand little by little, and lead with facts to help them see that kind of light. But all of the things, the tools that folks bring, you gotta use them. You gotta really be a part of it because if we continue to let this go just because of something that's happening in administration, we're not gonna be able to pull people back in a couple of years when we need to.

SPEAKER_05 51:32

I I do think that the the spa zone is incredibly valuable, obviously slowing down uh because we're mentally in a race, physically in a race. And uh when we look at the calendar year, it's it's like you know, uh happy new year, and then tomorrow it's happy new year, and then tomorrow's happy new year. It's like what wait a minute, we just had three years, right? And it's all a blur. So slowing down and being present, not only with the person or the people that we're engaging with, being present, but being present with ourselves. Where are we in that moment? Because I believe as professionals, Eric, the more seasoned we get, the older we get. We develop a skill set of putting up a facade. There are folks that go into work every day putting on their work facade, and we never, that's a representative, we really never know who that person is. It always comes out when there's something that happens in the news and they you know they show up or whatever, or we see the person out on town and like, oh my goodness, right? I I never saw you in you know uh shorts or uh uh jeans and sneakers and with the family, how you're interacting with your family and your friends. I'm just even talking about myself. I I present myself different at work because I'm at work, but if you come into my home with my friends, the language is different, the body language is different, the engagement is different, and then I put on my Tom Lewis voice, right? But then that's the presence, then it's the A asking the right questions. So I believe that is the most important. That's where I have in understanding true cultural competence. I've had opportunities to do work in other countries, and because of that, I didn't know, so I'm not telling you, but I'm asking the question. And the questions that I'm asking, I am asking partly selfishly, and the selfish part is I'm asking the questions such that I know, right? I'm not asking the questions so I can hear what you say, right? Like you're trying to gain something from it. I'm trying to gain something. So I and that's I offer that up in my training as well. Like when people ask questions, like, you know, how did you get to where you are, Tommy? Okay, I can tell you my journey, but how will it help you? Right? And you know, this well, I don't know. Well, ask me another question, right? Because if I can tell you, I used to ride my bicycle, jump ramps, and I fell down, right? But you don't know, you don't have any concept of riding bicycles or jumping ramps or falling down. That falling down created a value in me that I said I can get up even when I'm beat and battered and bruised. So where I am now in this work, in some instances, we are beat, battered, and bruised. But we get on the bicycle to ask the question how you know how could I travel further on the bike? Right? That's the question that we ask. So the the questions I think have to come from curiosity, they have to come from uh the the interest of gaining knowledge and information and hopefully wisdom. And then ultimately, the information that we received in asking the questions, the inquiry, we can then share with others through not only direct experience but indirect experience. So whatever Lissette is sharing with me, uh responding to my question, I can then go to another person or another people and kind of profess the wisdom of Lissette Peacock. Right, right, channel that right, and that's what this world is. There's nothing really new, right? And most of us we lived, you know, however long, we're not living to be seven years old anymore, right? But it's it's not the concept of civility, the concept of humanity is new, the evolution of our civility is new. How are we being civil? How are we being human and interacting? So that journey is at times stressful, and we may need a to be in our spa zone and woo-saw.

SPEAKER_00 56:40

Absolutely. It's just those those it's an easy concept, but it's about helping. If you can remind yourself to give somebody a spa moment, you know, we all know what it's like to go to a spa. It's beautiful, right? As soon as you walk in, you have somebody coming out. How can I help you? You want a massage, you want this, you want that, right? You give somebody a spa moment by slowing down, by being present and really listening. And and like you said, Tommy, if you ask those questions. And if you're in an organization and you want to learn more about folks, uh my advice is to create your own management plan to do that. If you're remote, hold up a Zoom meeting and don't talk about work. Talk about yourselves. Get to know each other. You'll be able to connect better that way. You know, folks, folks, we all we have all been trained. I know I'm I'm I'm a Gen Xer. I've been trained to bring my professional self to work and keep my culture at home. So it's it's different now. We really want to get to know each other at a deeper level. So create a management plan where you're doing one-on-ones and all you're doing is building relationships and don't cancel those meetings.

SPEAKER_05 57:57

Yeah. And we have to be okay with people um wanting to connect with people. We have to be okay with uh how people are showing up, yeah, in their moment, in their time, and who they are, and respecting that, right? So it's I'm not having a good day.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

And that right there creates belonging.

SPEAKER_02 58:21

And the challenge for us today is that we're living in a world where oftentimes people are being asked to do more than they have time to do. And so then there's a friction between if I don't have enough time to do all this stuff that you've given me, then the last thing I want to do is spend time learning about others. And so it's almost like we squeeze the people side out of work. And yet, uh, as we look at the work, everything that we care about is done by people. And so if we don't really focus on improving those relationships, then we're also not going to be able to effectively get this work done. Uh, I saw that there are a couple of paradigms that I think that people need to look beyond or look at in question. I was talking to somebody that felt as though we should be bringing back a lot of the civil rights strategies of people of color all coming together. And I actually believe that for me, uh the new the new uh frontier is not simply coming together with uh black people, but really all people of goodwill and and and and finding coalitions with other people and trying to grow your community with people. My experience has been that when you demonstrate to people that you can care about them and you can fight for them, then they will join your team. That's what I've seen. And I think that that's something that we collectively have seen that not everybody sees. I see people in this day and time sort of, you know, a broad brush painting all white people as one way. But the three of us have been in enough environments where we've seen people that we joined with, we fought for, they didn't care anything about inclusion, diversity, belonging. But when we showed them our capacity to care about what affects them, then all of a sudden they say, Is that what this is about? And if you can care about me, and if you can love me, and if you can fight for me, then I'll join whatever it is that you're saying that we ought to uh value. Is that kind of what you have seen across your career as well?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:37

Absolutely. And it's really, it's it's really what has helped me and my my circle, like like working with the both of you to be successful in this world. Because at the end of the day, you got to ask yourself the question, what's your end game with this? Because if your end game is to push somebody away, then okay, then all right, that's that's the way you do it. Not mine. I want to bring folks together. So, but by slapping somebody and policing somebody, that's not how you do it. You got to ask yourself, would you want somebody to talk to you like that? And how do we bring folks to actually create the stronger objective? And that is for all of us to be able to work together. We cannot be, we cannot go back, we can't segregate ourselves from society, it's growing. Well, there's too many people on the planet. And if we want to be able to coexist with each other, pushing people away is not gonna help. So we got to ask ourselves that question and be truthful and reflect upon our own. What's our end game? What is our objective?

unknown 1:01:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:42

And although I'm a peace lover, peace ambassador, I also believe that there have to be some criteria consequences for people that may not get this. In other words, if you are of the mindset that you don't have to value people, respect people, get along with others, then that becomes a challenge for the work that we're trying to do. And I think that we do have to establish some standards that say if you can't get this, if you're not willing to get this, then that's harmful to the objectives of our business. And so we've got, and I find I've seen over the years that if a person could do work good, that we then didn't care how they treated people, you know, as long as they bring in money and things like that. But I think that we have to both love people, educate people, empathize with people, build allyship with people, but also hold people accountable that if they're not of that mindset, then that can be harmful to the mission and the vision of the organization.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:46

So quickly, Eric, what you're saying is it's so incredible. And I have been trying to incorporate this in every organization I've worked with. I work, I used to work for Yale New Haven in New Haven, Connecticut, and what they implemented was the value system of Yale was part of their PMP. So your performance management is the values of our organization. These are our standards of professional behavior, and you will be graded on them on an annual basis. And if you don't meet them, it's not us telling you to leave. You've made the decision. You made the decision.

unknown 1:03:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:24

You made the decision. Every organization has mission, vision, and values. I encourage you to look at them values and if you like them, apply for the job. If not, move, go someplace else. So every organization utilizing your values as an accountability measure is and holding folks accountable. That's where we fight, right? This is our struggle. You got to hold people accountable to it because this is the expectation your organization has set.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:54

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:55

And you can make the decision whether you want to work here or not.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

We have blown through this hour. Uh so I'm gonna throw it to Tommy as he brings us to a close. But I think that the problem is that too often organizations are not counting the cost of people that are working in ways that are counter to our values, our vision, our mission. If you don't count the cost, then you don't know actually what those behaviors are costing you. If you do, and you can put a finance person on it, you don't need to put an HR person on it. How many people are they turning over? How many people they lost? What's the level of productivity of the team, the people that they're managing, all of those things that will that will help you? This has been an amazing conversation. We've blown through this time like it's nothing. We're just getting started.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:41

Tommy, I'm pitching it to you. Absolutely. I just want to close out with a comment and then we'll close the show. Unfortunately, we'll have Lissette back. Absolutely. But I what I what I heard was with regards to connecting values to performance, it's not just at the C-suite or executive or senior team level, it's throughout the organization. Absolutely. And so if it's a nonprofit organization, for-profit, government, quasi-government, etc., we have a mission with values, and everyone, full-time employees, part-time employees, contractors, vendors, they have to be aligned with those values. If you're not aligned, and we're measuring it, right, holding you accountable, right? We want you to be great somewhere else. Right? We always do. But somewhere else, right? There's not alignment. So uh that was a key takeaway for me. I'm gonna selfishly use that with a few of our partners, right? That's how do we drill this down through the organization? Because the the the the top epsilon, they get it, right? Management struggling a little bit, uh, and they just say, hey, we just do our Y'all will. We're saying, okay, is it aligned with our why values?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:09

So with that being said, do you have one last final word? I'm sorry. I'm gonna take it back from Tommy, throw it at you. Is there a final word that you want to give to our community? And then Tommy closes out.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

Yeah, give people spa moments, slow down, be present, ask questions with your heart, and you will see a change in your life and getting to know people better.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:31

Fantastic. Community, we need to go back and listen to and watch this episode with Lissette Martinez Peacock. Like there are many, many gems of wisdom, insights, and things that we can do to operationalize the work. So the words themselves may change over time, but the work continues. I want to thank you again for joining us for another episode of Diversity Conversations. Take care.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:00

Thank you.