Teach Middle East Podcast
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As the only podcast that interviews school leaders from across the Middle East and beyond, we offer unparalleled insights into the challenges and successes that shape educational landscapes in diverse settings. Join us as we dive deep into the fascinating world of education, where every episode promises a treasure trove of insights designed to connect, develop, and empower the brilliant minds shaping our future. Whether you’re seeking fresh perspectives, practical tips, or a dose of inspiration, the Teach Middle East Podcast is your must-listen resource. Tune in and transform the way you teach!
Teach Middle East Podcast
Inside Dubai College: Culture, Leadership, And Kindness With Tomas Duckling
We sit down with Dubai College headmaster Tomas Duckling to explore how a top school stays kind, rigorous, and human. From Watford roots and boarding school leadership to distributed decision-making and no emails after hours, Tom shares how he protects culture while moving forward.
• DC’s calm culture, high standards, and strict boundaries on after-hours email
• From Brunei and Switzerland to Dubai: lessons from boarding and international schools
• Reputation, demand for places, and misconceptions
• Transitioning from deputy to head: decision-making and accountability
• Trusted autonomy and distributed leadership to grow future leaders
• Tradition with innovation: de-implementation to free teachers for learning
• Family life, music, travel goals, and simple joys that keep the balance
• Stoicism, humility, and values that shape leadership choices
• A turnaround framework: philosophy, people, process
Teach Middle East Magazine is the premier platform for educators and the entire education sector in the Middle East and beyond. Our vision is to equip educators with the materials and tools they need, to function optimally in and out of the classroom. We provide a space for educators to connect and find inspiration, resources, and forums to enhance their teaching techniques, methodologies, and personal development. We connect education suppliers and service providers to the people who make the buying decisions in schools.
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Hosted by Leisa Grace Wilson
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You are listening to the Teach Middle East Podcast. Connecting, developing, and empowering educators.
SPEAKER_01:Hey hey everyone, Lisa Grace here, welcoming you back to the Teach Middle East podcast. Today I have Tom Duckling. Actually, he's Tomas. You know a funny story. I saw his name and I taught at Tomas when I was teaching in Enfield. And that boy was trouble. He was let's just say he I remember him. And if I remember him, he was not the easiest of students. But I hope this um interview with Tom is gonna be different. Welcome to the podcast, Tom.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you very much. Yeah, I hope it wasn't me, all those, yeah, but no.
SPEAKER_01:Were you in Enfield in the late 90s, early 2000s?
SPEAKER_02:Uh I was, I mean, I was not in Enfield, but not far away. I was from Watford, so uh in and around that area. Yeah, not far away.
SPEAKER_01:I taught in Waltham Cross.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, all right, nice. There wasn't Waltham Cross, so good. There's a as nice another big uh badly behaved Thomas in in town. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So Tom is the headmaster of Dubai College, one of the region's leading not-for-profit schools. Um, he took over from Mike. Um, most of you might know Mike Lambert. I'm not sure if you guys remember prior to Mike, but he's sitting in the principal's desk, and on this segment, we are going behind the principal's desk to ask the questions that many of you want to know. These are the questions that we don't normally get to ask head teachers because it would come off as invasive, but I get the privilege of asking those questions. Dubai College is a special place. I have lots of friends there. Clive, no, Clive is not there anymore. Oops, sorry. Um, Dee and the gang are still there, so shout out to them if they listen to the pod. Um, it's it's a really, really nice school. How have you been finding it?
SPEAKER_02:Uh I love it. I love it. It's I'm I'm so glad you started with that, actually, because it's it, as you know, it's one of the kindest, loveliest places to be. It's got a lovely atmosphere, it's got a lovely calm atmosphere around, it's very green. We've obviously got the campus feel, kids are incredibly polite. Um, so it's yeah, it's an absolute joy. Uh, and that team are so good, they're so accomplished, they're so intelligent. Uh, it's uh been a real privilege. So, yeah, couldn't be happier, is my answer.
SPEAKER_01:Welcome to, I know it's late to be saying welcome, but welcome anyway. Um, I'm I'm hoping you're having a good time in the region. I mean, you you just mentioned the campus is green, but coming from Switzerland, how have you found the transition to the desert?
SPEAKER_02:Uh, yeah, look, uh, Switzerland has its positives and negatives as does Dubai. Um, so Switzerland was beautiful, and we were obviously up in the mountains and we're in a ski resort, but also it was a very quiet place. Uh, and as previously mentioned, you know. So I'm from Watford originally, right up in the north part, or the most north you can go in London. Uh so it was very, very, very quiet. And before that, uh, my wife and I, we were in Borneo as well, actually, in a country called Brunei. So we had two very rural, very remote, uh wonderful schools, absolutely fantastic, high-level, high-achieving schools, uh, but in places that were very sleepy. So we were as a family, we were really ready for a fun change. Um, and equally, I've got two little ones, a six-year-old and a four-year-old. And they are, you know, this is just such a fun place to be when you're a little kid. So, yeah, really, really happy. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:What was it like growing up in Watford?
SPEAKER_02:It was fun. I mean, I love Watford. I was brought up by my dad. Um, and you know, I went to kind of a state school that was obsessed with football, and everyone was obsessed by football. Um, and you know, it was uh there was there were elements of a bit rough and ready in those days. That was before people had it as part of the community uh commuter belt, which it is now. So when I go home to Watford, I don't really recognise it. Um, but yeah, largely a lot of fun. Uh it was funny if I was talking to someone about this this week about um about children and contact and safety. And you know, the one of the things I remember most was just you had an in time, that was it. You know, you had a curfew, you had an in time, and that was it. And just just you know, cycling around Watford on a BMX, uh playing football with different areas all around it was uh yeah, a really happy time. And I've still got uh very, very close friends uh there. So yeah, I've very fond of Watford, a massive Watford football fan uh as well. So I was a season ticket holder there for the best part of 20 years or so before I went international. So uh yeah, very fond of it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was just about to ask you which team you support. Do you support Watford?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, I was born in Watford General Hospital, which backs in uh over Watford General uh Watford Football Club, Vickerage Road. Uh and so yeah, big, always been a big Watford fan, so never really had uh any other allegiance.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the thing is, Watford, Watford has really come up. When I was a young girl, people from our area would move to Watford because the houses were cheaper than Tottenham, um, and it would have been considered out of London, and but now Watford has made a um a 360. You can't buy anything in Watford now.
SPEAKER_02:Do you know what's really fascinating actually? So my family originally comes from Walthamstow in East London. So, and of course, Watford was set up as many places were as satellites post-the blitz. So uh it's quite interesting when you meet people from Essex. I've lost most of my accent now. Um, but my my accent when I was a bit younger, right? Hello, mate, how are you doing? Playing a bit of football. Uh so it Watford accent is very, very similar to Essex accent, but because both both are post-war council setups that were put up after the blitz, so there's a very similar kind of East London twang to it. Um, and it's it's interesting that I say, as East London has become incredibly uh expensive now as well, and now Watford is similar sort of thing. So yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Grew up with your dad. What was that like?
SPEAKER_02:My dad's a legend. Uh he's a very, very, very funny man. Um, he's uh yeah, he's a good character. So he brought me up uh from from very young, and then my later on uh my stepmother uh arrived, so really great. And my house was uh the centre of a lot of fun, actually. Always really loads of people came around, lots of parties, were welcome at the house. It's the kind of the centre of the family. So Christmas is with kind of 25 people round you all round tables and that sort of stuff. So uh, you know, everyone chipping in and that sort of stuff. So yeah, my dad's uh a great man, real hero of mine. Uh but he's yeah, he's got a sense of humor, uh, it's fair to say. Siblings, sister, yeah, older sister, uh who I love dearly, uh, still living in the UK.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And so growing up with your dad, obviously, you didn't have I would I would I I would suppose you didn't have that conventional mom-dad family for a while. What was that like in school? So you have to go to school and you're only with your dad. Was there any any link between the two? Did you suffer any, you know, consequences of that?
SPEAKER_02:Do you know what it's a funny, it's a funny scenario. It's a really interesting question because I I I had when I was in my school, which I said was just a pretty rough and ready state school, uh, I was considered quite posh. Um, and when I went to university, they kind of everyone thought I was really common and they they thought I was from East Enders or something like that. And the reason that's quite important is my dad, what he prioritized was stuff. So he was really hardworking, he he worked long hours, so I had to often get myself to school and etc. etc. All those sort of independence pieces, blah blah. Uh, but what he prioritized was kind of uh, for want of a better word, cultural literacy and um cultural knowledge. So we we went to the theatre a lot. My dad took me to the opera, took me to the ballet, he took me to museums on a regular basis. We went what to Watford matches, home and away. It sounds I was sounds stupid, but going to away matches, I learned to read a map and navigate in the days before Tom Fell. So I had a really good understanding of the country, really good understanding of different cultures. Um, so actually, it was for me, it was dual benefit. I said my where my school was had a lot of feeders from a lot of different um kind of socioeconomic backgrounds, but I was you know, I was considered one of the the posha kids. But going to the theatre was kind of what how you why are you going to the theatre? Who does that? So I'm very grateful for my dad for all that he did there. It was a really, really good thing to have done and had a massive impact on my well, my appreciation of the world and and love of education and and further. So yeah, great.
SPEAKER_01:Why do you think he did that? Why do you think he was deliberately exposing you to those cultural things?
SPEAKER_02:I think when you're a parent, you look for something in common, right? So and I I don't think I so my par my kids have just got obsessed with Pokemon, and I've been obsessed. So we now watch Pokemon, we draw Pokemon, they've got the figures, they've got the trading cards. Um, and as of dad, I sometimes I I've always found play difficult. When they're younger, I kind of like, let's play, but let's play shots, and that sort of stuff. And so Pokemon's been really good for me this summer to have something that I can kind of work with them, talk with them, I can draw with them, and that sort of stuff. So I think really uh I did ask him at this once. I think he just wanted something to do that was good for him and good for me.
SPEAKER_01:So now you are a dad of two young children. Yeah. What are you doing to deliberately spend time with them?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I have to say that's been one of the real benefits of Dubai. Um, because previously my school was a boarding school, um, and boarding education has enormous positives. It's a massive privilege to work in a boarding school for people to trust you with their children all the time uh is a significant uh level of trust and a significant responsibility. Uh, but I was super busy in a boarding school, I was so, so busy. Um, so in terms of deliberately spending time, whilst obviously being head of Dubai College is not without challenge and long hours, um, fundamentally I'm spending so much more time with my kids. Just Dubai has been brilliant for that. Just even the culture here, uh actually, DC's got a brilliant culture, which is we are totally, we do not have emails outside of the school day. So, and and so much so, even in my first weekend, uh you already mentioned D. Um, I I sent an email on the weekend and she straight away sent back, that's a no, we don't do that here. And and I'm so glad she did, uh, because we don't, it's a really, really fixed culture for giving people the space and time. DC is a fast-paced, uh, high-level, high-quality institution. So when we're here, we're all working really, really hard, um, but we really protect that. So now I'm very grateful as well for that. So, what are you doing with the with with your doing? Uh at the moment, I said there's six and four. So it's essentially Pokemon or water slides, I would say that my life is predominantly Pokemon or water slides. Sometimes at the moment, walking around malls, you know, just to get them out of the house in the heat. So we've we've done quite a lot of uh you know, wandering around, having a froyo, that sort of thing. So is your wife a teacher? My wife is an English teacher here at Dubai College, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Ah, what's it like being married to a teacher, being the headmaster?
SPEAKER_02:Uh so we've only ever worked together. Actually, Catherine had a uh had a previous career she worked in media, uh, where she worked as an agent for celebrities and that sort of stuff. So she had a much more uh glamorous career prior, but then she retrained and became a teacher. So we've only ever worked together. Uh so it's absolutely uh not a problem at all. It's something we really enjoy.
SPEAKER_01:What is it with Dubai College? Mike and Sarah, same, oh come on, it's a pattern, isn't it? But it's it's good, it's good. So when you when you decided to move to Dubai, what were some of the things you were looking forward to? And did they did they meet expectations?
SPEAKER_02:Uh what were they looking forward to? I I think actually that I I might, if I can, I can might answer that differently. Uh, I think the things what surprised me was better. I mean, everything I was looking forward to is here. The students here are an absolute privilege and enjoy it. They are so uh kind of eloquent, but also adult and mature and thoughtful. And you know, talking to them is like talking to an expert at times. So the students here are fabulous. The staff here have been so welcoming to me, and they are operating at such a high level. So all of those things are great. Um, I think, but Dubai, what I didn't expect, I didn't, I wasn't as aware as I possibly should have been of the reputation of Dubai College. And what I mean by that is it's an institution in Dubai. Um, and I didn't quite realise what came with that, I guess, in terms of so that was a bit of a surprise, sort of, you know, DC is a big deal. Um, and it just, you know, but the minute you even mention it, it kind of changes the nature and tenor of conversations in a way perhaps previously, you know, working in one school is just you working in a school, you're a teacher. Whereas the minute you say you work at DC, uh, it has an impact on things. So that's probably the thing that I was most surprised about. But apart from that, the rest of it I was kind of expecting and it's delivered.
SPEAKER_01:Good impact, as in when you when you mention DC, does it open doors or does it close them, or what's the impact?
SPEAKER_02:Uh both is the answer. Is sometimes it opens them, and sometimes I guess it has people have preconceived um perceptions of DC. I have said that's why I'm delighted you started with it's such a nice school. Um, there are people who don't think that, right? So people see our our results, which are, as you know, some of the best results in the world, and they think it's going to be a hot house, and they think it's going to be a very uh aggressive culture. And it's and for those that have been here and seen it, they know it's the complete opposite of that. It's calm, it's kind, it's thoughtful. Uh, the opening doors thing, I guess there's always that element because of the matrix, because DC has this uniqueness, and there's the original campus on the wall behind me, it has this uniqueness of starting from year seven, therefore it has this entry, right? And because we, even this year alone, 176 places, we had 850 applications. That tension around that, I think, is probably the bit that is both a positive, uh, but also sometimes can lead to attention and can lead to a difficult team in conversations and how people feel about it as well.
SPEAKER_01:So I'm gonna ask you a question that is not very conventional. So you were the deputy at Eglen Um College in Switzerland, and so you moved from deputy head to headmaster at Dubai College without previously being a head. And I want to know for my listeners what that transition has been like, and how do you even prepare for such a transition?
SPEAKER_02:So uh I probably should provide a bit of context. So, firstly, I had a fantastic mentor in my last role. So, Nicola Sparrow is the head of um Airborn College, and she and I worked together closely for nearly eight years, and she allowed me incredible access to the work that she did, and I I mean I very much learned alongside her. So I modelled a lot of what I do now on her and watching how she did things. So, firstly, I had really, really good mentorship and training. Secondly, I would say that again, a boarding model is slightly different. So, because Eglon is quite a prestigious school, obviously it's quite famously a very expensive school, it has a large alumni network. So, Nicola would travel quite a bit. So she travelled for periods of time. So there were also stretches of time whereby I would be essentially uh running elements or large elements of the day-to-day of the school. So I, you know, as it was, I line managed the academic side, I line managed the operational side, and I line managed the boarding uh side as well. So, in many respects, the remit of the role there was significant and therefore helped me. I was afforded with a lot of opportunities to get experience for many of the decisions I have to reach here. However, what is the hardest bit, which you can't prepare for, is that you've got nobody else to talk to. That's that's the toughest bit. Um, and what I mean by that, even in my first couple of weeks, I remember just that moment where I picked up on the fact that people are waiting for me to make the decision. And I was so conditioned to having someone there to do that, that there was probably a reluctance or a lack of awareness in certain times that, oh God, that's coming to me. That's my decision. And that's the bit you can't come to. You know, in every scenario previously, whilst I had good experience and lots and lots of opportunities to uh lead change, lead work with people, coach others, all of that sort of stuff I did previously. I would always call Nicola and say, right, is that the right call? And or very serious calls came to her in this seat. That comes to me now. I've got a fantastic board. Uh the chair of my board is is absolutely outstanding and has been again been you know taking an active role in looking to help me. Uh, but ultimately it's my head and it's my responsibility. So that's the toughest bit. Um, but you just need to listen well, I think.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Preparing the next set of leaders, how how do you plan to do that?
SPEAKER_02:So I I'm I'm someone quite a big believer in this. I'm very different, and it has been commented on. Uh, I've got quite a different leadership style in this. I really do believe in uh, you know, and I did I've done my MBA. Funnily enough, I did my MBA through UCL with Mike Lambert, right? And that's he and I met many years ago. And, you know, the two the two words I use from that, from those leadership manuals and that sort of stuff, uh, were trusted autonomy and distributed leadership. And I actually started here with the staff and talked about those two forms of leadership and why they're important to me. So I I do a lot of stuff on trust. I've got an amazing top team here. And actually, sometimes I come back to that thing. Uh, Dylan William said, you know, if you if you're a senior leader and you want to lead change in a school, get out of the room. And and it's not evasive or delegation or trying to avoid work, I assure you. But I've actually spent quite a lot of my time here getting out of the room, trusting people to do that. You know, I take responsibility if something goes wrong, I'm accountable, I will answer for it, and we will talk about the mistake that's been made, and I take responsibility for that, but ultimately giving people the space and support to make those decisions. That's how I develop leaders. I I am a big believer that whilst of course you can do courses, and whilst of course you can read leadership books, and whilst of course you can reflect, I I'm a big believer in that you learn by practice in leadership, and you've got to sometimes make those mistakes and then be reflective enough to grow from them as well.
SPEAKER_01:So uh this is my last question about your school, because then I want to talk about you. But taking, I often say taking over an outstanding school is harder than taking over a school that requires improvement because you can see what you can do from day one. First of all, do you agree with that or not? Uh possibly, yes. Then my second follow-up question to that is how do you plan to move DC forward, having taken over such a reputable institution that's already outstanding in many ways?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think the first thing I would say is what you judge outstanding and what you're trying to do. So, you know, the fundamental point there is that education is moving around us as is society. All right. So education needs to be flexible and adaptive, as do the young people that we are helping to shape. So there's lots and lots of conversations to be had about the future of education. In terms of the outstanding piece, I'm also on a kind of uh strange mix of very, very pro innovation and making dynamic moves forward, but also traditional, right? I think there's a lot of benefits to long-term uh proven, evidence, traditional learning. Um, I think knowledge is very important. I think academic rigor is very important. So there's a maintenance piece there as well. I guess the bit I would say as a slight aside is I haven't felt there's not work here to be done. And that's because, as well, PC has had lots and lots of systems and structures uh that are a product of its length of time and its tenure. Uh and I've got work, I've got experience working in two very high-achieving international schools within different sectors. So there have been quite a few areas, I would say, that I've been able to come in and say, look, there's an area to look at this. In addition, you know, one of my big drives, again, Dylan Williams work with Hattie and Hamilton on de-implementation. So I've talked a lot about staff about de-implementation, because as is a product of most schools, we see, especially as a busy place, we've got systems on top of systems, we've got uh structures that possibly could be more efficient, and as well as that, we've got uh we have the best part of 1300 very high-achieving people in one place. So one of the big things we're actually looking at is how can we make things more sustainable, de-implement to allow uh learning to be the main focus. So I don't feel there's not work to be done, but I look, there's also, I think the bigger point I would say to you is not that maintenance of outstanding, it's it's about protection of the culture and the community. You know, were I the sort of person that came in and said, I've been at other schools and this is how it should be done, I think I would have had a massive issue. I came into BC and I said, I want to learn about this school. I love the story of this school. I love that picture that I put up behind my desk. Um, I love the fact, you know, our story of our origin, you know, if we're going into our 48th year, which makes it one of the oldest schools uh in the Middle East. And particularly there, of course, there's this pioneering story of our founder, Tim Charlton, who drove from London, set up the school all the way, drove here all the way with the Land Rover. And we're looking at how we can celebrate that. So I'm I'm originally a history and politics teacher, so I'm big into traditions and I'm big into celebrating that. Uh and I, you know, when I came in, I met every member of staff individually, and I just I just listened. So I hope that if you were to speak to DC members of staff, we recently celebrated our long tenure. We had 77 members of staff that have been here for over 10 years, including two members of staff that have been with us for over 40 years, which you realize is an enormous portion of the school. Yeah, this one. The three members of staff that have been in this school for before I was born. I I think we must be onto some sort of record in terms of the amount of years worked in proportion to the amount of years of the school. So it's an astonishing um kind of proportion. And it's so therefore there's such deep love, such deep commitment here, and it's been my role to celebrate that and protect that. And that in of itself is a job.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant. I mean, like I said, I I know DC, um, not know it, no, it I don't work there, but I'm familiar with it um from you know staff members who I have there who are um good colleagues and friends of mine, and it really is said on the street that it's a good place to work. So hopefully that will continue under your tenure. All right. Am I allowed to say your age on the podcast, Tom? You say my age, yeah. Okay, I'm 39. So you're 30, what?
SPEAKER_02:Nine.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, you're 39. You turned oh, I was I had it as 38. Okay, you're 39 years old.
SPEAKER_02:I was in I was I'm in August. I'm in I was one of the youngest in my school year, so I'm uh I'm just just past that now.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so you're a 39-year-old dad and husband. So outside of your role as headmaster, you've got to have things you do, interests, things that people would never even imagine that you get up to. So let's start off easy. What are you humming in the shower?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I'm gonna it's uh my music taste is super, super eclectic, right? So I'm I'm one hand, I'm very into vinyl, so I've got a load of uh vinyl of kind of anything from Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen, all that sort of stuff. In my in my office, I'm famous, I have music on all the time uh because I and I listen to classical in the daytime. I happen to be a massive fan of um house music and uh kind of you know recently even got the chance to go see Ramper and fun things like that. So I'm super mega eclectic. Uh I like different music for different scenarios.
SPEAKER_01:So, what would you be humming? Give me one.
SPEAKER_02:Uh, what's my go-to? I have actually got some earworms. I'm trying to think of what my earworms are because I sometimes get uh criticized for them. Uh possibly Call Me Owl by Paul Simon. Um, it's it lives in my ear on a regular basis, I would say.
SPEAKER_01:Nice.
SPEAKER_02:And so I have a really and I have a really annoying habit as well of singing. Like I will get triggered with certain words, and then I will sing a song later, which is a deeply annoying habit. I appreciate.
SPEAKER_01:I I I I think our listeners will appreciate eclectic tastes in music. I've had previous previous head teachers on here who've gone from Coldplay right the way through to Bob Marley. So don't don't worry, don't feel bashful, don't feel shy, relax, feel comfortable. We're a friendly bunch around here at Teach Middle East and our listeners of the podcast.
SPEAKER_02:So you see a judgment now. You say, I don't mind, I don't mind judgment about the role, but my music taste. This is where judgment exists.
SPEAKER_01:So no judgment. We don't don't judge. We we listen, you know what the millennials say, Gen Z, we listen and we don't judge.
SPEAKER_02:So okay, I'll I accept that.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Here's my other question. So it's date night for you and Catherine. You've got two young kids. Where are you going? Where are you taking her?
SPEAKER_02:Well, yeah, I I should be a better husband in this area. I mean, we are probably going for a meal, uh and we're probably going for sushi, I should think. Funny enough, something like that. I wouldn't imagine it. Oh, I wish we had a date night every week. I'm afraid we are not as good as we should be on that. So, yes, that is not that is not an area I'm being a success in, but I'm now even saying that out loud, I would be more successful. So, yes, invariably, because we lived in Asia for four years, uh, Asian food is pretty much our hacky place in that regard. Obviously, Dubai is blessed by some of the best food in the world. So, yes, somewhere with um Asian food and a nice glass of wine.
SPEAKER_01:So I hear my listeners in my head, they're rooting for Catherine and they're saying, Do better, Tom.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, as they should.
SPEAKER_01:You should take her out for lovely date nights because Dubai has beautiful places and you can even drive across to Abu Dhabi and try some stuff there. But let's say you don't get to a date night as much as you'd like, but you have to plan a holiday. And someone like you who's been well traveled, what are you planning? Where are you going and why are you going there?
SPEAKER_02:So the reason I'm laughing is because Catherine is if Catherine had one hobby, uh what there'd be top of the list, holiday planning is her hobby. So, and if were I to take that away from her, it would be an absolute disaster. But travel is one of our biggest things. I we at the moment, so all holiday planning is done by Catherine, and all of our friends will know she's a travel planning expert. People from around the world ask for her advice. And at the moment, we are trying to get me to 100 countries. So I've been to 85 countries currently. I just went to we just went to Romania. Um, so I can tell you that we've already planned the next 15 countries over the next few years uh where we intend to go to get me to 100 countries. So, yes, I can't answer that because I would never be allowed to plan a holiday.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, wow. Okay, Catherine, we're coming for you. Maybe we'll have you on talking about where teachers should travel to and why and what's good and what's not good. Give us like a holiday, maybe one of the episodes before we go off on a major holiday, and then sometimes we can get use those tips and put them in place. You you have a busy job, right? But you as an individual have to take care of you inwards. So I don't want to get spooky and spiritual, but what but my question is what grounds you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, family is the most obvious answer. Uh, I have to uh another bad habit or good habit I've got recently is voice notes on WhatsApp. So I stay, you know, at the moment when I'm walking, I'm moving around, I'll often send a voice note to some of my friends at home. Uh that grounds me. Um so yeah, I mean, family and friends is the most obvious answer, I would say. Uh yeah, I you know, look, I again, this is this is not a particularly grounded answer, I must say. But you know, I have I'm really into stoicism and Marcus Aurelius, which is not spiritual, but some people might argue is spiritual uh in certain respects. So I I spend quite a lot of time or have spent a lot of time considering uh elements of how we think, how we control our thoughts, and that sort of stuff. So, you know, obviously for Marcus Aurelius, humility is is one of the most important values you can have. So uh, you know, I think of that a lot. Uh, I encourage that a lot uh to those around me. So I would say that's what grounds me.
SPEAKER_01:Hmm. So you're into stoicism. It's quite interesting, um, the things that people are into. What does humility? He means to you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think I'd sometimes I use the quote, work in silence, let your success be your noise. I think that you're, you know, people who are full of purpose and full of direction and are comfortable and are competent and confident are aware of their place among things. They don't need to shout about them. So you know, humility for me is not trying to vie for your own uh place or set send out a message around where you need to be. It's just being in control, being uh purposeful, and allowing others to make judgments on you in that regard. So uh yeah, I probably that's probably why humility, well, certainly very important to Marcus Raelis, but humility is a important value in stoicism full stop.
SPEAKER_01:Interesting. I did read um a bit of his writing, um, and yeah, there is a place for stoicism, but also there is also a place for your emotions and for understanding how you feel and why you're feeling it, and allowing those feelings. So I I mean I get there, there are two schools of thoughts on that.
SPEAKER_02:So you so sometimes that's uh it can be a missed perception of stoicism because stoic Marcus Aurelius talks a lot about happiness and being happy and being emotional. It's less about being emotions, it's about checking your emotions. Stoicism is one of the foundational practices as that are part of CBT, where you people to actually have therapy. Uh, equally, lots of the mindfulness is the idea of understanding that you're in control of your thoughts. So actually, stoicism is not against emotion, it's against being led by emotion. It it, you know, Marcus Sorelis talks a lot about you know understanding that the way you're feeling about others is actually irrational. So you capture it, you control it, and then that changes your actions and behaviors. So yeah, there's a lot of emotion in stoicism, and particularly happiness as well. You know, again, Marcus Relus speaks a lot about celebrating and capturing the joy of life and the joyful little moments. So yeah, it's not it's not misery, it's uh it's a different thing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, okay. All right, that clarifies that a bit. What what makes you what makes you sad?
SPEAKER_02:What makes me sad? I mean, I I on on balance, I'm quite a positive person. Um, I was really fortunate in my previous role, and it's something I wish to uh wish to bring here eventually, once I'm settled, to work in in the power of education across the world. So I did a lot of work with different charities and I was in charge of scholarship, which is a card, a big part of Eglon. So Egolon is a very expensive school, but it's 10% scholar. So I was fortunate enough to go to Palestine, I was fortunate enough to set up uh work work with the Navajo Indian uh tribes in in New Mexico. And essentially, you know, the what I saw in those schools made me sad. But then equally I believe in the power of education to to level that playing field to an extent.
SPEAKER_01:So what makes you sad?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, uh well, inequality, I guess, if I don't want a better word. I mean, that sounds like a kind of very wishy-washy answer, but um, but yeah, yeah, people who don't get the same opportunities as others, I guess, would probably make me sad.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, don't don't judge your answers. I I want I want your answers to be your answers. They're the they're they're the answers that coming from you, what you what comes up first is normally what's right.
SPEAKER_02:And you know, yeah, there is an injustice piece there, right? Again, I I won't be drawn on talking about specific leaders, but there's some bad leaders in the world, right? And equally, it can be really hard working in education when you spend all of your time talking about key values and character and kindness and humility when some of the most powerful and important people in the world are almost the other end of that spectrum. So, and that's really hard. It's really hard. I mean, I'm sure it's been referenced numerous times, right? With this the impact of that adolescence Netflix documentary, it's hard being a father of young, uh, a young boy and seeing young men, and when you see the role models that there are in the world to an extent, yeah. I mean, that makes me pretty sad.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And then I know apart from family, what makes you happy?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, it's what do I like to do? I guess. I mean, skiing makes me very happy, and I that is a sad thing about leave leaving Switzerland. Obviously, I skied a lot there, and I have been to Ski Dubai, and I'm very great, it's very fun. Uh, but it's not quite the same thing there. Um, but beyond that, yeah, it's sports in all forms. Obviously, as you get older, you know, your knees start to give up a little bit. But uh yeah, football, basketball, all those sort of things. I've just, in fact, I've just dealt with an email. I am now, I've agreed, which I will probably regret, to play in a teacher versus student basketball match here at Dubai College, uh, which is one of the biggest events of the year. Um, so yeah, that's that's gonna be fun.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think I think when it comes to happiness, um, it could be the simple things like a good sushi meal or playing a game of basketball or or any anything like that. You know, people often think it has to be a big thing, it could be the smallest of things. Um, what are you reading apart from Marcus Aurelis? What are you reading?
SPEAKER_02:So I I've just finished uh I got obsessed with the Wolf Hall trilogy, all three of them. So this they actually have just just finished the third one. Um bring out the bodies. I think I've got them right in the wrong order now because you get one that but yeah, so and that was all three of those, each one of them is kind of 800 words. So the Thomas Cromwell, Hillary Mantle thing. Uh, so that's that's gone through that. And then I've just started uh a book called Fox, uh, which is not a very pleasant book, uh, and it's about uh the murder of a uh murder of a pedophilic teacher, actually. So it's uh it's not easy reading, uh I would say. So uh yes, that that's what I have finished and that's what I've moved on to, but I'm not enjoying the the current book as much as I was at the last, I'll put it that way.
SPEAKER_01:And you've written what what were you what were you writing about? What was your book about so no?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I write so I one of my my previous work was on uh the theory of knowledge. So again, my degree is history and politics, but particularly I looked at political philosophy, uh was a real passion of mine, moving into philosophy. And then when I got into an IB school uh in Brunei, a Gerald International School, uh, I got really into theory of knowledge, so epistemological philosophy. And then I got more engaged with that community, and then I was asked by Cambridge to write the resource guide. So I wrote that resource guide, which was which was fun, and every now and then uh it's quite nice because essentially it's planning how you teach that course and how you should how you know, even down to the the my niche eye of preparing for the lessons and that sort of stuff. And every now and then I'll be it somewhere and someone will say, Can I just say thank you very much uh for the lessons and the impact you provided for my TOK lessons? Because T OK, when you start it, can be quite overwhelming because you don't really know what it is, it's so different to other subjects. Um, so I've had quite a few people, it's very kind, who have said, I just want to say thank you because I didn't know what I was doing and I read your book. So, and then I'm supposed to be writing a book on character education currently, uh, which is not going as well as I would have hoped. And you know, headmaster of Dubai College, uh, father of young children, um, fitting in writing a book is not not going as well as it should be. But I, you know, I even saying those things out loud to you, I need to take my wife on a date and I need to write my book. Right? There's my to-do list.
SPEAKER_01:Catherine, you can thank me later. Um, we're wrapping up the podcast. So, what I wanted to end with is obviously your school is known, but if you were, and I want you to don't give me the political, I don't know what I would do. Give me what you really think you should do. If you were leading a school that required improvement in this AI world with everything going kind of crazy education-wise, where would you start?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I got a quite easy answer for this because I I would apply the same process for everything, which is philosophy, people, process. So I believe that any problem in education could be dealt with those things. So you start with a philosophy, you have to make sure that you're on the same page. You can't deal with uh coming from education from two totally different points, we'll never get past that. Again, you know, the is so outstanding, but actually, our educational philosophies, she's in charge of the learning here, they are so aligned. Uh, Debs, who's our safeguarding person, again, our safeguarding uh how we her, she and I, how we see the role of safeguarding, our works in safeguarding obviously extensively in boarding. You know, we're we're so aligned here that I'm bringing and it's a joy. So you've got to get the philosophy lined up first, regardless of what the problem is. You can't really get past that point. Then it's about people, and you have to trust people. You've got to get make sure you've got the right people in the room, all right? So, and again, that sometimes leads to if you know in this hypothetical example of a school that needs improvement, sometimes that means saying goodbye to people or moving people to different areas or you know, encouraging them to move on, find their happiness elsewhere. So you can't you can't do anything about that. You can coach people, you can develop them, but if they have a different philosophy and they're not prepared to take you on that journey, then then you have to have some tough conversations. And then lastly, it's about process. It really thing is about education, is we don't have to make it hard for teachers. The most valuable point of teaching, or education full sort of the mo the highest value item you do is the relationship and interaction based around learning between the teacher and the group of students. That is the thing that matters most. And we as educators and as schools find so many ways to get in the way of that. Um, so then you need to, I really feel this quite strongly because it's quite sad when you're headmaster, you don't teach or you teach very, very little. Um, so you're away from that key part. But my purpose and my my whole raison debt is to get in there to to make sure that we can make it focus on the main thing, focus on learning, focus on relationships, and we will try and deal with everything else.
SPEAKER_01:Brilliant. That's a great place to end the pod. Thank you for being my guest, Tom.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for having me. And uh, yeah, I'll better go organize a date.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, you do. Uh, I think I think you have an assignment for this long weekend. This this podcast listeners is being recorded on the Friday of the long weekend, the prophet's birthday, and Thomas is in his office. So that's a very telltale sign that he needs to get out of his office and go take Catherine out. Thank you for being on the pod.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you very much.
