{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":63.61,"endTime":67.21000000000001,"body":"Hi, I'm here with Cora"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":63.61,"endTime":67.21000000000001,"body":"who's my daughter. She's nine,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":67.6,"endTime":73.36,"body":"say hi, hello, hello. And this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":67.6,"endTime":73.36,"body":"week, we're continuing our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":73.36,"endTime":77.29,"body":"series on conflict management."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":73.36,"endTime":77.29,"body":"Of course, everyone has"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":77.29,"endTime":82.93,"body":"conflicts in their lives. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":77.29,"endTime":82.93,"body":"our guest today is Karen"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":82.93,"endTime":87.67,"body":"Ziegler. And Cora, way back"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":82.93,"endTime":87.67,"body":"before you were born, Karen was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":87.67,"endTime":91.09,"body":"the minister of a church. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":87.67,"endTime":91.09,"body":"the Minister of a church has to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":91.09,"endTime":94.36000000000001,"body":"make a lot of decisions. 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Like if"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":124.47999999999999,"endTime":127.63,"body":"you went to bed earlier, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":124.47999999999999,"endTime":127.63,"body":"would be less sleepy. 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So"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":197.92000000000002,"endTime":199.63000000000002,"body":"let's just keep talking about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":197.92000000000002,"endTime":199.63000000000002,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":200.77,"endTime":202.78,"body":"Okay. Okay."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":203.83,"endTime":207.19,"body":"Well, that's it from Korea and I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":203.83,"endTime":207.19,"body":"stay tuned for Karen Ziggler."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":217.60000000000002,"endTime":221.71,"body":"Welcome to first person plural,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":217.60000000000002,"endTime":221.71,"body":"emotional intelligence and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":221.71,"endTime":225.94,"body":"beyond. I'm Elizabeth Solomon."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":221.71,"endTime":225.94,"body":"I'm hanuman Goleman. And I'm"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":225.94,"endTime":229.39000000000001,"body":"Daniel Goleman. Today we're"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":225.94,"endTime":229.39000000000001,"body":"continuing with the theme of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":229.39000000000001,"endTime":234.28,"body":"conflict management. In our last"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":229.39000000000001,"endTime":234.28,"body":"episode, I talked with Erin wolf"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":234.28,"endTime":238.18,"body":"about his work facilitating"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":234.28,"endTime":238.18,"body":"dialogue over big issues such as"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":238.18,"endTime":242.77,"body":"faith than water rights. We"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":238.18,"endTime":242.77,"body":"touched on how systems can be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":242.77,"endTime":247.63000000000002,"body":"designed for healing. 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And often, it's more a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":514.51,"endTime":517.0600000000001,"body":"question of which conflict am I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":517.0600000000001,"endTime":520.6,"body":"going to engage in, that is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":517.0600000000001,"endTime":520.6,"body":"going to serve the higher good,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":520.6,"endTime":524.89,"body":"the higher mission vision"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":520.6,"endTime":524.89,"body":"purpose, one of the elements of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":524.92,"endTime":528.34,"body":"being a group, which is so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":524.92,"endTime":528.34,"body":"important is that everyone feels"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":528.37,"endTime":532.27,"body":"a sense that they belong here."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":528.37,"endTime":532.27,"body":"And one of the functions of a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":532.27,"endTime":538.03,"body":"leader is in a sense to protect"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":532.27,"endTime":538.03,"body":"the group from all of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":538.03,"endTime":542.29,"body":"unpleasant realities that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":538.03,"endTime":542.29,"body":"organizational life brings? Or"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":542.29,"endTime":545.5600000000001,"body":"is it to give the group some"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":542.29,"endTime":545.5600000000001,"body":"skills and tools to be able to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":545.5600000000001,"endTime":549.22,"body":"navigate the inevitable"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":545.5600000000001,"endTime":549.22,"body":"unpleasant realities that exist?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":549.22,"endTime":552.04,"body":"It's kind of a, it's an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":549.22,"endTime":552.04,"body":"interesting kind of existential"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":552.25,"endTime":555.4,"body":"leadership question. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":552.25,"endTime":555.4,"body":"it's in a way, a parenting"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":555.4,"endTime":558.19,"body":"question, I asked myself all the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":555.4,"endTime":558.19,"body":"time, I'm like, to what degree"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":558.19,"endTime":562.09,"body":"can I sort of protect you and,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":558.19,"endTime":562.09,"body":"and sort of insulate you from"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":562.09,"endTime":565.5699999999999,"body":"sort of the harsh realities? And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":562.09,"endTime":565.5699999999999,"body":"actually, where is it my job to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":565.6,"endTime":569.68,"body":"help you name what's happening"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":565.6,"endTime":569.68,"body":"around you, and figure out what"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":569.68,"endTime":572.98,"body":"kind of internal resources you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":569.68,"endTime":572.98,"body":"have to navigate that, in fact,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":572.98,"endTime":576.04,"body":"you could argue that a leader"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":572.98,"endTime":576.04,"body":"who helps that happen is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":576.04,"endTime":576.91,"body":"protecting people."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":578.5,"endTime":581.86,"body":"Let's listen to the interview"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":578.5,"endTime":581.86,"body":"with Karen Ziegler to hear about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":581.86,"endTime":583.78,"body":"her experience of conflict"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":581.86,"endTime":583.78,"body":"management."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":585.13,"endTime":589.9,"body":"So we're here to hear your"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":585.13,"endTime":589.9,"body":"story. Karen, I'd love to have"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":589.9,"endTime":593.41,"body":"you kick us off with a little"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":589.9,"endTime":593.41,"body":"once upon a time, or just bring"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":593.41,"endTime":598.18,"body":"us back in time. Sure, yeah. As"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":593.41,"endTime":598.18,"body":"you're talking, I'm realizing"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":598.18,"endTime":603.01,"body":"that there are so many layers of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":598.18,"endTime":603.01,"body":"conflict in concentric circles"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":603.01,"endTime":607.21,"body":"that were surrounding us and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":603.01,"endTime":607.21,"body":"that we were in. So once upon a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":607.21,"endTime":612.52,"body":"time, it was the mid 1980s. It"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":607.21,"endTime":612.52,"body":"was in Greenwich Village. And I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":612.52,"endTime":616.63,"body":"was the pastor of an LGBTQ"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":612.52,"endTime":616.63,"body":"church, and I was doing a lot of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":616.63,"endTime":620.53,"body":"funerals. And people were"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":616.63,"endTime":620.53,"body":"getting sick and sometimes dying"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":620.56,"endTime":624.0699999999999,"body":"right away. And so by the time"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":620.56,"endTime":624.0699999999999,"body":"this happened, we we did have a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":624.0699999999999,"endTime":631.63,"body":"name for this disease. But we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":624.0699999999999,"endTime":631.63,"body":"felt really besieged by the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":631.63,"endTime":636.31,"body":"responses of the families of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":631.63,"endTime":636.31,"body":"those who are sick and dying by"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":636.31,"endTime":638.92,"body":"city government, which was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":636.31,"endTime":638.92,"body":"completely unresponsive. Of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":638.92,"endTime":641.3199999999999,"body":"course now we know that it was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":638.92,"endTime":641.3199999999999,"body":"partly because Ed Koch, the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":641.3199999999999,"endTime":644.59,"body":"mayor was gay, but we you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":641.3199999999999,"endTime":644.59,"body":"we knew that now, but it wasn't"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":644.59,"endTime":649.03,"body":"a help but I think it was part"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":644.59,"endTime":649.03,"body":"of why he couldn't come to grips"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":649.03,"endTime":650.02,"body":"with this disease. That was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":650.02,"endTime":653.41,"body":"Killing gay men. And meanwhile,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":650.02,"endTime":653.41,"body":"what we were really seeing on"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":653.41,"endTime":658.99,"body":"the state, local and federal"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":653.41,"endTime":658.99,"body":"level was no help. Reagan never"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":658.99,"endTime":663.43,"body":"mentioned the word AIDS until"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":658.99,"endTime":663.43,"body":"his friend Rock Hudson became"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":663.46,"endTime":668.11,"body":"very publicly dead from AIDS. So"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":663.46,"endTime":668.11,"body":"we were also having that layer"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":668.11,"endTime":672.79,"body":"of conflict. And I feel like our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":668.11,"endTime":672.79,"body":"community really rose to that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":672.79,"endTime":677.65,"body":"occasion, that was the time of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":672.79,"endTime":677.65,"body":"act up just amazing. Gay"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":677.65,"endTime":682.18,"body":"Activists, many of whom were"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":677.65,"endTime":682.18,"body":"sick themselves, knew they were"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":682.18,"endTime":686.17,"body":"going to die, but they were kind"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":682.18,"endTime":686.17,"body":"of delivering their bodies into"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":686.62,"endTime":690.6999999999999,"body":"hoping for something better"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":686.62,"endTime":690.6999999999999,"body":"people would bring the ashes of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":690.6999999999999,"endTime":694.99,"body":"their dead lovers and dump them"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":690.6999999999999,"endTime":694.99,"body":"on the White House lawn. ACT UP"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":694.99,"endTime":700.93,"body":"was a hugely, hugely creative,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":694.99,"endTime":700.93,"body":"angry, beautiful, activist"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":700.93,"endTime":705.16,"body":"organization, my favorite thing"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":700.93,"endTime":705.16,"body":"they ever did was put a giant"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":705.16,"endTime":708.91,"body":"condom on Jesse Helms house,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":705.16,"endTime":708.91,"body":"right wing North Carolina"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":708.91,"endTime":712.96,"body":"Senator, I mean, it was a very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":708.91,"endTime":712.96,"body":"large condom. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":712.99,"endTime":715.54,"body":"these activists were fighting"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":712.99,"endTime":715.54,"body":"for things like making condoms"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":715.54,"endTime":720.31,"body":"available. And there was a very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":715.54,"endTime":720.31,"body":"famous protest in St. Patrick's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":720.31,"endTime":724.3,"body":"Cathedral. So you know, that's a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":720.31,"endTime":724.3,"body":"really beautiful history to read"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":724.3,"endTime":730.06,"body":"about. And in the middle of it,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":724.3,"endTime":730.06,"body":"we knew we were kind of we felt"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":730.06,"endTime":733.0,"body":"we were in the center of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":730.06,"endTime":733.0,"body":"universe, and that so many"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":733.0,"endTime":736.87,"body":"things were meeting in people's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":733.0,"endTime":736.87,"body":"coming to terms with sexuality"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":736.87,"endTime":740.35,"body":"with spirituality, we were kind"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":736.87,"endTime":740.35,"body":"of inventing what church might"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":740.38,"endTime":744.49,"body":"look like, if people came from"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":740.38,"endTime":744.49,"body":"all different denominations, and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":744.49,"endTime":748.15,"body":"were diverse in every way,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":744.49,"endTime":748.15,"body":"racially in terms of class,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":748.6,"endTime":753.4,"body":"everything. And we were making,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":748.6,"endTime":753.4,"body":"making it up as we went along. I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":753.4,"endTime":757.03,"body":"was 24 years old, when I became"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":753.4,"endTime":757.03,"body":"pastor of that church. And the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":757.03,"endTime":761.17,"body":"people who became my staff were"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":757.03,"endTime":761.17,"body":"also very young, some of them"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":761.17,"endTime":765.73,"body":"even younger than I was. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":761.17,"endTime":765.73,"body":"kind of reminds me of some of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":765.73,"endTime":768.61,"body":"these stories like The Hobbit,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":765.73,"endTime":768.61,"body":"you know, we were just kind of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":768.91,"endTime":772.4499999999999,"body":"wandering around, not sure what"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":768.91,"endTime":772.4499999999999,"body":"we were doing. I mean, I just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":772.4499999999999,"endTime":775.36,"body":"remember never feeling like I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":772.4499999999999,"endTime":775.36,"body":"knew how to do what I was doing."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":775.78,"endTime":779.74,"body":"But there was a lot of love"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":775.78,"endTime":779.74,"body":"between us, there was a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":779.77,"endTime":786.85,"body":"tremendous faith. We truly knew"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":779.77,"endTime":786.85,"body":"and preached that God loved us."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":787.27,"endTime":791.59,"body":"And our purpose was really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":787.27,"endTime":791.59,"body":"bringing healing to ourselves"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":791.59,"endTime":795.49,"body":"and each other. And this was a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":791.59,"endTime":795.49,"body":"time when gay men with AIDS,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":795.49,"endTime":799.5699999999999,"body":"were getting pamphlets from"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":795.49,"endTime":799.5699999999999,"body":"their mother tracks that said,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":800.14,"endTime":802.6899999999999,"body":"You're going to hell, and you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":800.14,"endTime":802.6899999999999,"body":"deserve to die because you're"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":802.6899999999999,"endTime":807.01,"body":"gay. So that was the kind of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":802.6899999999999,"endTime":807.01,"body":"work that we did, by speaking to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":807.01,"endTime":811.66,"body":"people privately by laying on"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":807.01,"endTime":811.66,"body":"hands and praying for each"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":811.66,"endTime":816.22,"body":"other. We really understood that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":811.66,"endTime":816.22,"body":"healing can happen even as"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":816.22,"endTime":820.5699999999999,"body":"people are dying, that healing"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":816.22,"endTime":820.5699999999999,"body":"can be a communal endeavor. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":820.5699999999999,"endTime":824.0799999999999,"body":"we came up with rituals, like"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":820.5699999999999,"endTime":824.0799999999999,"body":"the Stations of the Cross,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":824.0799999999999,"endTime":826.3,"body":"anyone who's Catholic"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":824.0799999999999,"endTime":826.3,"body":"understands the Stations of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":826.3,"endTime":828.85,"body":"Cross, we're all the places"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":826.3,"endTime":828.85,"body":"where Jesus was tortured on his"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":828.85,"endTime":833.0799999999999,"body":"way to his death. And we would"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":828.85,"endTime":833.0799999999999,"body":"walk around Greenwich Village,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":833.0799999999999,"endTime":836.47,"body":"and the places of the Stations"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":833.0799999999999,"endTime":836.47,"body":"of the Cross were places where"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":836.9499999999999,"endTime":841.06,"body":"queer people had been murdered."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":836.9499999999999,"endTime":841.06,"body":"So we were really embodying in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":841.06,"endTime":846.5799999999999,"body":"every way we could, what it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":841.06,"endTime":846.5799999999999,"body":"meant to be people of faith,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":847.03,"endTime":851.11,"body":"surrounded by these two great"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":847.03,"endTime":851.11,"body":"conflicts, and many of us were"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":851.11,"endTime":853.87,"body":"fighting for our lives, not me,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":851.11,"endTime":853.87,"body":"but many of the men were"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":853.9,"endTime":858.4,"body":"literally fighting for their"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":853.9,"endTime":858.4,"body":"lives. And so meanwhile, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":858.4,"endTime":862.12,"body":"know, churches, it seems to me"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":858.4,"endTime":862.12,"body":"are especially prone to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":862.12,"endTime":862.93,"body":"conflict."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":864.79,"endTime":868.66,"body":"And I think churches have"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":864.79,"endTime":868.66,"body":"oppressed people can act out our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":868.66,"endTime":871.51,"body":"trauma on each other it really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":868.66,"endTime":871.51,"body":"easily we didn't have any"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":871.51,"endTime":874.87,"body":"understanding of trauma. You"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":871.51,"endTime":874.87,"body":"know, we were young, and it was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":874.93,"endTime":879.88,"body":"1985 or something. So our church"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":874.93,"endTime":879.88,"body":"in particular had kind of chewed"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":879.88,"endTime":883.09,"body":"up its first couple of pastors."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":879.88,"endTime":883.09,"body":"It wasn't a very old church, but"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":883.09,"endTime":886.75,"body":"it had already gone through a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":883.09,"endTime":886.75,"body":"number of pastors very quickly."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":886.75,"endTime":891.61,"body":"So I think I always felt a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":886.75,"endTime":891.61,"body":"little bit worried that I was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":891.61,"endTime":897.28,"body":"going to be next. But I felt"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":891.61,"endTime":897.28,"body":"called to this church and I felt"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":897.67,"endTime":902.65,"body":"really connected to God. I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":897.67,"endTime":902.65,"body":"prayed a lot and meditated a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":902.65,"endTime":906.31,"body":"lot. And, you know, I think it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":902.65,"endTime":906.31,"body":"was probably at about this time"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":906.31,"endTime":910.27,"body":"that I was begging God to be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":906.31,"endTime":910.27,"body":"released from my calling to this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":910.27,"endTime":914.26,"body":"church. And the answer that I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":910.27,"endTime":914.26,"body":"would get is like, No,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":915.43,"endTime":918.22,"body":"you know, you are a mess, but"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":915.43,"endTime":918.22,"body":"you're the best I've got right"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":918.22,"endTime":921.16,"body":"now. You need to just hang in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":918.22,"endTime":921.16,"body":"there. You know, just hanging in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":921.16,"endTime":926.38,"body":"there is enough. You know, so I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":921.16,"endTime":926.38,"body":"did. Um, meanwhile, we had a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":926.38,"endTime":931.21,"body":"staff a paid staff of, I think,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":926.38,"endTime":931.21,"body":"just two other people. I don't"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":931.21,"endTime":933.73,"body":"think we paid our church"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":931.21,"endTime":933.73,"body":"secretaries. I think they were"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":933.73,"endTime":937.3299999999999,"body":"all volunteer. So I had an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":933.73,"endTime":937.3299999999999,"body":"assistant and associate pastor,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":937.3299999999999,"endTime":941.5,"body":"I was senior pastor, and they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":937.3299999999999,"endTime":941.5,"body":"were both about my age, and they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":941.5,"endTime":946.81,"body":"were very different. My"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":941.5,"endTime":946.81,"body":"associate pastor was a gay man."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":947.02,"endTime":949.99,"body":"Very brilliant. He's still"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":947.02,"endTime":949.99,"body":"pastoring a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":950.02,"endTime":956.05,"body":"After all these years, he had a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":950.02,"endTime":956.05,"body":"real gift for programming for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":956.0799999999999,"endTime":960.46,"body":"preaching for everything, except"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":956.0799999999999,"endTime":960.46,"body":"administration, he was maybe a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":960.46,"endTime":964.51,"body":"bigger mess than I was in that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":960.46,"endTime":964.51,"body":"area. And then there was another"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":964.5699999999999,"endTime":968.5,"body":"assistant pastor who was very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":964.5699999999999,"endTime":968.5,"body":"Roman Catholic, she had really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":968.5,"endTime":971.86,"body":"wanted to be a Roman Catholic"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":968.5,"endTime":971.86,"body":"priest. And she was very, very,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":972.1899999999999,"endTime":976.63,"body":"in that way of thinking. But she"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":972.1899999999999,"endTime":976.63,"body":"was a good administrator,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":976.63,"endTime":980.14,"body":"because unlike the rest of us,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":976.63,"endTime":980.14,"body":"she had actually learned how to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":980.17,"endTime":983.17,"body":"be an administrator in seminary,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":980.17,"endTime":983.17,"body":"she had gone to Roman Catholic"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":983.17,"endTime":987.16,"body":"seminary, just, they just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":983.17,"endTime":987.16,"body":"couldn't ordain her. And the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":987.16,"endTime":992.17,"body":"other thing that she was doing"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":987.16,"endTime":992.17,"body":"was she was administrating a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":992.23,"endTime":996.61,"body":"very large food pantry. It upset"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":992.23,"endTime":996.61,"body":"the neighbors, but it fed a lot"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":996.61,"endTime":1001.05,"body":"of people. And it really helped"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":996.61,"endTime":1001.05,"body":"us to feel like we were doing"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1001.05,"endTime":1005.61,"body":"the work that a church needed to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1001.05,"endTime":1005.61,"body":"do. Not that the church didn't"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1005.61,"endTime":1009.06,"body":"need to do the other stuff. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1005.61,"endTime":1009.06,"body":"the other stuff we were doing"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1009.06,"endTime":1012.66,"body":"was worship services that people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1009.06,"endTime":1012.66,"body":"really experienced as very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1012.72,"endTime":1017.91,"body":"healing, communal, powerful"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1012.72,"endTime":1017.91,"body":"events. And also some"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1017.91,"endTime":1023.34,"body":"programming that my associate"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1017.91,"endTime":1023.34,"body":"had developed around men and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1023.34,"endTime":1026.13,"body":"women alike, he developed this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1023.34,"endTime":1026.13,"body":"men's program, which then the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1026.13,"endTime":1028.47,"body":"women replicated to some extent."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1029.55,"endTime":1033.42,"body":"And this really grew the church,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1029.55,"endTime":1033.42,"body":"and the church was already very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1033.42,"endTime":1037.38,"body":"lopsided. It was also already"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1033.42,"endTime":1037.38,"body":"mostly done. But I think also"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1037.38,"endTime":1041.55,"body":"because of AIDS, and there"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1037.38,"endTime":1041.55,"body":"weren't a lot of places to go"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1041.58,"endTime":1046.38,"body":"for the gay community. This"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1041.58,"endTime":1046.38,"body":"really drew a lot of men. And so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1047.6100000000001,"endTime":1052.95,"body":"this was an era of lesbian,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1047.6100000000001,"endTime":1052.95,"body":"feminist separatism. When aids"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1052.95,"endTime":1057.8700000000001,"body":"happened and our friends started"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1052.95,"endTime":1057.8700000000001,"body":"to die and be sick and die, we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1057.9,"endTime":1061.98,"body":"stepped up and started taking"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1057.9,"endTime":1061.98,"body":"care of them. And that broke"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1061.98,"endTime":1064.56,"body":"something that kind of never"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1061.98,"endTime":1064.56,"body":"came back, which was kind of a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1064.56,"endTime":1069.63,"body":"lesbian, feminist separatism."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1064.56,"endTime":1069.63,"body":"But we still had a powerful"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1069.63,"endTime":1073.26,"body":"resentment, I think about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1069.63,"endTime":1073.26,"body":"feeling like such a minority in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1073.26,"endTime":1077.97,"body":"the church. Would you mind"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1073.26,"endTime":1077.97,"body":"describing lesbian, feminist"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1077.97,"endTime":1084.0,"body":"separatism? Sure, in the 70s,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1077.97,"endTime":1084.0,"body":"there were really powerful"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1084.24,"endTime":1088.05,"body":"theological writers like Mary"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1084.24,"endTime":1088.05,"body":"Daly, rosemary, Ruth, or who"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1088.05,"endTime":1093.6,"body":"just died, who talked about the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1088.05,"endTime":1093.6,"body":"patriarchal aspects of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1093.6,"endTime":1094.32,"body":"church."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1095.34,"endTime":1099.33,"body":"This was happening also, in many"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1095.34,"endTime":1099.33,"body":"areas of the culture, like, many"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1099.33,"endTime":1102.51,"body":"lesbians would go to the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1099.33,"endTime":1102.51,"body":"Michigan Women's Music Festival,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1102.51,"endTime":1106.29,"body":"which was closed not only to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1102.51,"endTime":1106.29,"body":"men, but also trans men and even"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1106.41,"endTime":1110.49,"body":"boy children after a certain age"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1106.41,"endTime":1110.49,"body":"so. So we were kind of trying to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1110.49,"endTime":1114.54,"body":"figure out what would it be like"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1110.49,"endTime":1114.54,"body":"not to live in a patriarchal"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1114.54,"endTime":1121.02,"body":"culture? How can we change our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1114.54,"endTime":1121.02,"body":"language and our worship, so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1121.02,"endTime":1126.15,"body":"that we're not worshipping men?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1121.02,"endTime":1126.15,"body":"How can we experience our own"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1126.18,"endTime":1128.91,"body":"imminence, our own sense of God"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1126.18,"endTime":1128.91,"body":"within us?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1130.08,"endTime":1132.78,"body":"Mary Daly, one of the things"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1130.08,"endTime":1132.78,"body":"that she said that I always"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1132.78,"endTime":1138.3899999999999,"body":"loved was when God is a man, the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1132.78,"endTime":1138.3899999999999,"body":"man is God. And so we were very,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1138.3899999999999,"endTime":1142.53,"body":"and actually the men were"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1138.3899999999999,"endTime":1142.53,"body":"largely helping us with this. We"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1142.53,"endTime":1144.93,"body":"were really changing our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1142.53,"endTime":1144.93,"body":"language, we did not talk about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1144.93,"endTime":1148.62,"body":"God and Father, you know, our,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1144.93,"endTime":1148.62,"body":"our jokey way of talking about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1148.62,"endTime":1153.06,"body":"the Trinity, not in worship was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1148.62,"endTime":1153.06,"body":"two boys and a bird. So we had"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1153.06,"endTime":1157.56,"body":"to change how we talked about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1153.06,"endTime":1157.56,"body":"God, we had to talk about God in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1157.56,"endTime":1160.98,"body":"neutral languages or a mother or"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1157.56,"endTime":1160.98,"body":"father, we had to talk about how"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1160.98,"endTime":1165.18,"body":"we talked about Jesus, how we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1160.98,"endTime":1165.18,"body":"talked about the Kingdom of God,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1165.27,"endTime":1169.74,"body":"and some of the men including"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1165.27,"endTime":1169.74,"body":"especially our associate pastor,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1169.74,"endTime":1172.41,"body":"were really creative at"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1169.74,"endTime":1172.41,"body":"rewriting the hymnal, they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1172.41,"endTime":1176.16,"body":"rewrote the entire hymnal. But,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1172.41,"endTime":1176.16,"body":"you know, it was really a time"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1176.16,"endTime":1180.42,"body":"of great creativity, trying to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1176.16,"endTime":1180.42,"body":"imagine a world that was not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1180.42,"endTime":1183.66,"body":"patriarchal, trying to create"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1180.42,"endTime":1183.66,"body":"that world within our own"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1183.66,"endTime":1187.05,"body":"community. That's great. That's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1183.66,"endTime":1187.05,"body":"really important context for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1187.05,"endTime":1192.3899999999999,"body":"this. Thank you. So we got to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1187.05,"endTime":1192.3899999999999,"body":"the point where three of us were"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1192.3899999999999,"endTime":1197.76,"body":"paid staff, and we had no money."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1192.3899999999999,"endTime":1197.76,"body":"We were struggling to pay rent"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1197.76,"endTime":1198.9,"body":"in New York City."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1200.19,"endTime":1204.36,"body":"That's a whole nother story. We"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1200.19,"endTime":1204.36,"body":"really couldn't pay three staff"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1204.36,"endTime":1208.44,"body":"people. And I was not feeling"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1204.36,"endTime":1208.44,"body":"that I was released from my call"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1208.44,"endTime":1209.07,"body":"to be there."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1210.27,"endTime":1215.91,"body":"So it seemed to me, number one,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1210.27,"endTime":1215.91,"body":"that we needed to only have two"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1215.94,"endTime":1221.07,"body":"paid staff people. And also"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1215.94,"endTime":1221.07,"body":"number two, I felt that who ever"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1221.55,"endTime":1225.6,"body":"stayed, would be the next pastor"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1221.55,"endTime":1225.6,"body":"of the church. I just had a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1225.6,"endTime":1230.16,"body":"sense of that because both of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1225.6,"endTime":1230.16,"body":"these people had very powerful"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1230.16,"endTime":1234.78,"body":"ministries, and I knew they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1230.16,"endTime":1234.78,"body":"would want to stay. So when my"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1234.81,"endTime":1239.6399999999999,"body":"associate pastors contract was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1234.81,"endTime":1239.6399999999999,"body":"up for renewal, I decided not to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1239.6399999999999,"endTime":1244.2,"body":"renew his contract, which was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1239.6399999999999,"endTime":1244.2,"body":"the same really as firing him."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1245.37,"endTime":1248.46,"body":"I really chose to intensify a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1245.37,"endTime":1248.46,"body":"conflict that was already going"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1248.46,"endTime":1250.02,"body":"on. And my re"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1250.02,"endTime":1254.46,"body":"reasoning for that was that he"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1250.02,"endTime":1254.46,"body":"was by far, in my mind the most"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1254.46,"endTime":1258.66,"body":"gifted, and he would have no"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1254.46,"endTime":1258.66,"body":"trouble finding his own church."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1259.2,"endTime":1263.37,"body":"And I felt a little bit like the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1259.2,"endTime":1263.37,"body":"mother bird, kicking the baby"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1263.37,"endTime":1268.77,"body":"bird out of the nest because he"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1263.37,"endTime":1268.77,"body":"clearly could fly. I also knew"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1268.8899999999999,"endTime":1273.6299999999999,"body":"that the men would be okay, that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1268.8899999999999,"endTime":1273.6299999999999,"body":"they would continue the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1273.6299999999999,"endTime":1278.94,"body":"programming that he started. But"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1273.6299999999999,"endTime":1278.94,"body":"I didn't think the food pantry"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1278.94,"endTime":1283.44,"body":"would continue without the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1278.94,"endTime":1283.44,"body":"assistant pastor. Plus, he was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1283.47,"endTime":1288.03,"body":"just as much of a disaster as an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1283.47,"endTime":1288.03,"body":"administrator as I was. So, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1288.03,"endTime":1291.75,"body":"know, later I, I realized it was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1288.03,"endTime":1291.75,"body":"kind of like Sophie's Choice,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1291.75,"endTime":1294.81,"body":"you know, when the when the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1291.75,"endTime":1294.81,"body":"mother is forced to choose"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1294.81,"endTime":1298.1399999999999,"body":"between her two children,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1294.81,"endTime":1298.1399999999999,"body":"because I, you know, I love them"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1298.1399999999999,"endTime":1301.1399999999999,"body":"both very much. We were"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1298.1399999999999,"endTime":1301.1399999999999,"body":"siblings, really, but I knew it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1301.1399999999999,"endTime":1305.43,"body":"was on me to make that kind of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1301.1399999999999,"endTime":1305.43,"body":"decision. I could have just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1305.46,"endTime":1309.06,"body":"resigned and let them fight it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1305.46,"endTime":1309.06,"body":"out. But I didn't feel free to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1309.06,"endTime":1312.75,"body":"do that. Yeah. Can you talk"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1309.06,"endTime":1312.75,"body":"about that a little bit. Karen,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1313.35,"endTime":1316.74,"body":"what are the emotions that arose"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1313.35,"endTime":1316.74,"body":"for you, as you were trying to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1316.74,"endTime":1320.97,"body":"make that decision? I knew that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1316.74,"endTime":1320.97,"body":"I had to be absolutely certain"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1321.0,"endTime":1324.06,"body":"that it was the right thing for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1321.0,"endTime":1324.06,"body":"the church. I felt it was the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1324.36,"endTime":1328.98,"body":"the right thing for them. But I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1324.36,"endTime":1328.98,"body":"had to be absolutely certain."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1329.31,"endTime":1333.03,"body":"And so, you know, I prayed about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1329.31,"endTime":1333.03,"body":"that a lot. I meditated. I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1333.03,"endTime":1337.17,"body":"prayed about it a lot until I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1333.03,"endTime":1337.17,"body":"got to a place where I just felt"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1337.17,"endTime":1342.87,"body":"like I could, that I could face"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1337.17,"endTime":1342.87,"body":"the fire, really, and not waver"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1342.9,"endTime":1346.8899999999999,"body":"in that. And it was, it was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1342.9,"endTime":1346.8899999999999,"body":"awful. You know, I felt like I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1346.8899999999999,"endTime":1351.3899999999999,"body":"was being flayed. It was really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1346.8899999999999,"endTime":1351.3899999999999,"body":"awful. And I had to be really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1351.45,"endTime":1356.6399999999999,"body":"sure. But I was sure. You know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1351.45,"endTime":1356.6399999999999,"body":"I really was sure. And so I just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1356.6399999999999,"endTime":1362.82,"body":"remember having to keep saying"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1356.6399999999999,"endTime":1362.82,"body":"to people individually and in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1362.82,"endTime":1366.51,"body":"front of the congregational"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1362.82,"endTime":1366.51,"body":"meeting, just keep saying I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1366.51,"endTime":1370.08,"body":"believe this is the best thing"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1366.51,"endTime":1370.08,"body":"for the church. This is really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1370.08,"endTime":1375.09,"body":"hard. It's really hard for me to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1370.08,"endTime":1375.09,"body":"and I think it's necessary."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1375.45,"endTime":1379.5,"body":"Yeah, I don't remember a whole"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1375.45,"endTime":1379.5,"body":"lot about what else I would have"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1379.5,"endTime":1383.49,"body":"said, but I do remember that I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1379.5,"endTime":1383.49,"body":"had to reach very deep into my"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1383.52,"endTime":1387.93,"body":"own inner conviction that I had"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1383.52,"endTime":1387.93,"body":"come to as I was making that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1387.93,"endTime":1390.3899999999999,"body":"choice. Yeah, I hear so much in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1387.93,"endTime":1390.3899999999999,"body":"there. I mean, I hear"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1390.3899999999999,"endTime":1394.2,"body":"prioritizing the larger"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1390.3899999999999,"endTime":1394.2,"body":"community, right over any one"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1394.83,"endTime":1400.08,"body":"individual, I hear, like really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1394.83,"endTime":1400.08,"body":"going deep within and sort of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1400.08,"endTime":1403.59,"body":"seeking counsel and taking some"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1400.08,"endTime":1403.59,"body":"time with that decision, so that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1403.59,"endTime":1406.68,"body":"by the time you arrive there,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1403.59,"endTime":1406.68,"body":"you can execute that with"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1406.68,"endTime":1411.03,"body":"confidence. And I also just hear"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1406.68,"endTime":1411.03,"body":"this peace around long term"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1411.03,"endTime":1414.57,"body":"thinking, right, and the many"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1411.03,"endTime":1414.57,"body":"ways that we have to sort of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1414.57,"endTime":1417.48,"body":"hold the larger picture or the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1414.57,"endTime":1417.48,"body":"larger vision or the larger"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1417.48,"endTime":1422.31,"body":"strategy, and make immediate"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1417.48,"endTime":1422.31,"body":"decisions that are incredibly"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1422.37,"endTime":1426.45,"body":"disruptive. And I'm curious, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1422.37,"endTime":1426.45,"body":"know, when you communicated this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1426.45,"endTime":1431.43,"body":"decision to let go of one of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1426.45,"endTime":1431.43,"body":"your colleagues, and continue on"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1431.43,"endTime":1435.69,"body":"collaborating with the other,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1431.43,"endTime":1435.69,"body":"how you communicated that, and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1435.69,"endTime":1439.26,"body":"what those conversations were"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1435.69,"endTime":1439.26,"body":"like, I have to be honest with"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1439.26,"endTime":1442.44,"body":"you, I don't remember telling"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1439.26,"endTime":1442.44,"body":"either one of them. I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1442.44,"endTime":1446.25,"body":"would have had to tell them, but"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1442.44,"endTime":1446.25,"body":"I don't remember, I just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1446.25,"endTime":1447.06,"body":"remember"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1448.2,"endTime":1451.62,"body":"having to explain it to other"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1448.2,"endTime":1451.62,"body":"people, you know, the Board of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1451.62,"endTime":1455.22,"body":"Directors, the congregation, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1451.62,"endTime":1455.22,"body":"just remember having to just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1455.22,"endTime":1460.47,"body":"keep returning to the feeling"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1455.22,"endTime":1460.47,"body":"within myself, that no matter"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1460.47,"endTime":1464.49,"body":"what happened, I was doing what"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1460.47,"endTime":1464.49,"body":"I thought was right. What you're"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1464.49,"endTime":1470.01,"body":"saying is so beautiful around"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1464.49,"endTime":1470.01,"body":"conflict management, because for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1470.01,"endTime":1474.9,"body":"me, what it points to is the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1470.01,"endTime":1474.9,"body":"deep importance of us of having"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1474.9,"endTime":1480.6,"body":"a North Star, something inside"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1474.9,"endTime":1480.6,"body":"us that we really believe that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1480.6,"endTime":1485.37,"body":"we that we know is true inside"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1480.6,"endTime":1485.37,"body":"us so that it helps us to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1485.37,"endTime":1489.93,"body":"weather the storm. It's that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1485.37,"endTime":1489.93,"body":"rock that we can hold to in the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1489.93,"endTime":1493.59,"body":"midst of a great storm. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1489.93,"endTime":1493.59,"body":"and I think by then I had a lot"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1493.59,"endTime":1498.69,"body":"of practice. You know, I think"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1493.59,"endTime":1498.69,"body":"just being a queer person raised"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1498.69,"endTime":1503.16,"body":"in the church, drove me to that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1498.69,"endTime":1503.16,"body":"place very early on, of having"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1503.16,"endTime":1508.44,"body":"to trust myself above what"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1503.16,"endTime":1508.44,"body":"people were telling me. And then"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1508.44,"endTime":1514.1399999999999,"body":"I think, just holding the space"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1508.44,"endTime":1514.1399999999999,"body":"in that church, as the pastor"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1514.17,"endTime":1519.72,"body":"through a lot of trauma, I had"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1514.17,"endTime":1519.72,"body":"to be connected to something"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1520.05,"endTime":1525.24,"body":"that could hold that trauma for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1520.05,"endTime":1525.24,"body":"myself and to all of us. So I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1525.24,"endTime":1529.41,"body":"think by the time I went through"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1525.24,"endTime":1529.41,"body":"that particular fire, I was kind"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1529.41,"endTime":1533.97,"body":"of ready. But I think that kind"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1529.41,"endTime":1533.97,"body":"of standing in one's own"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1534.0,"endTime":1538.71,"body":"conviction does take a lot of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1534.0,"endTime":1538.71,"body":"practice. You know, practice in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1538.71,"endTime":1543.06,"body":"telling the truth, even when"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1538.71,"endTime":1543.06,"body":"it's difficult to practice in,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1543.45,"endTime":1547.08,"body":"going inside and checking out"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1543.45,"endTime":1547.08,"body":"one's true feelings and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1547.08,"endTime":1549.99,"body":"perceptions. So fortunately, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1547.08,"endTime":1549.99,"body":"think that I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1550.02,"endTime":1554.34,"body":"had so much practice that it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1550.02,"endTime":1554.34,"body":"helped. So much of conflict is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1554.8799999999999,"endTime":1558.66,"body":"grief and the many ways grief"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1554.8799999999999,"endTime":1558.66,"body":"manifests itself often in the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1558.66,"endTime":1562.83,"body":"form of rage. And so I love what"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1558.66,"endTime":1562.83,"body":"you're talking about here, which"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1562.83,"endTime":1566.52,"body":"is being able to say, Okay, I'm,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1562.83,"endTime":1566.52,"body":"I'm opening up this decision, or"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1566.52,"endTime":1569.25,"body":"I'm igniting this conversation,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1566.52,"endTime":1569.25,"body":"and I know there's going to be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1569.25,"endTime":1572.25,"body":"grief. And I have the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1569.25,"endTime":1572.25,"body":"wherewithal to be with people in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1572.25,"endTime":1575.19,"body":"their grief as I tell them"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1572.25,"endTime":1575.19,"body":"something that is, you know, not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1575.19,"endTime":1578.8799999999999,"body":"going to make them happy, quote,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1575.19,"endTime":1578.8799999999999,"body":"unquote. Yeah. Well, it was a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1578.8799999999999,"endTime":1582.6299999999999,"body":"time of such grief to. So it was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1578.8799999999999,"endTime":1582.6299999999999,"body":"very painful to add on to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1582.6299999999999,"endTime":1585.18,"body":"people's grief, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1582.6299999999999,"endTime":1585.18,"body":"especially the grief of the men,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1585.48,"endTime":1590.22,"body":"because many of them were sick,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1585.48,"endTime":1590.22,"body":"or terrified. I think as much as"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1590.22,"endTime":1594.69,"body":"many of us hate conflict, we are"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1590.22,"endTime":1594.69,"body":"grateful for leaders who"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1594.69,"endTime":1597.9,"body":"demonstrate the ability to make"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1594.69,"endTime":1597.9,"body":"hard decisions and to make those"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1597.9,"endTime":1602.58,"body":"hard decisions, considering the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1597.9,"endTime":1602.58,"body":"larger context. And and the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1602.58,"endTime":1607.35,"body":"greater good of the group. I had"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1602.58,"endTime":1607.35,"body":"a relationship with this guy,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1607.3799999999999,"endTime":1608.61,"body":"you know, he was a friend,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1609.9,"endTime":1613.8,"body":"which was the most difficult"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1609.9,"endTime":1613.8,"body":"aspect of it. How did you to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1613.8,"endTime":1616.95,"body":"navigate that? I think it was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1613.8,"endTime":1616.95,"body":"difficult for a while, we're"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1616.95,"endTime":1620.37,"body":"still really good friends. But"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1616.95,"endTime":1620.37,"body":"it was difficult for a while,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1620.61,"endTime":1624.66,"body":"but not long. You know, within a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1620.61,"endTime":1624.66,"body":"couple of years, I visited him"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1624.66,"endTime":1629.55,"body":"at his new church. I certainly"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1624.66,"endTime":1629.55,"body":"gave him a really great"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1629.55,"endTime":1634.11,"body":"recommendation. And he got a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1629.55,"endTime":1634.11,"body":"great church, much better than"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1634.11,"endTime":1637.56,"body":"ours in a lot of ways. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1634.11,"endTime":1637.56,"body":"it was the perfect thing."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1638.8799999999999,"endTime":1643.62,"body":"That was really confirming for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1638.8799999999999,"endTime":1643.62,"body":"me, the idea that he was ready"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1643.62,"endTime":1646.3799999999999,"body":"to move on and there was a place"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1643.62,"endTime":1646.3799999999999,"body":"for him, that would be better"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1646.41,"endTime":1650.01,"body":"for him. And he was needed"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1646.41,"endTime":1650.01,"body":"there. And he did a great job"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1650.01,"endTime":1653.07,"body":"there. Yeah, I think the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1650.01,"endTime":1653.07,"body":"disruption in our relationship"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1653.07,"endTime":1656.82,"body":"was brief, because I think that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1653.07,"endTime":1656.82,"body":"he understood a little bit about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1656.91,"endTime":1660.96,"body":"why it was necessary, even"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1656.91,"endTime":1660.96,"body":"though it was hard. I think this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1660.96,"endTime":1663.78,"body":"is like kind of one of the most"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1660.96,"endTime":1663.78,"body":"heartbreaking things that's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1663.78,"endTime":1666.81,"body":"happening right now in our kind"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1663.78,"endTime":1666.81,"body":"of culture, where so many things"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1666.81,"endTime":1671.97,"body":"are divided, is that people who"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1666.81,"endTime":1671.97,"body":"actually share common interests"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1671.97,"endTime":1676.74,"body":"share common values are at their"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1671.97,"endTime":1676.74,"body":"essence wanting the same thing,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1677.43,"endTime":1681.6299999999999,"body":"are split apart by kind of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1677.43,"endTime":1681.6299999999999,"body":"lesser smaller issues that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1681.6299999999999,"endTime":1686.97,"body":"arise. So there are a few"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1681.6299999999999,"endTime":1686.97,"body":"threads of of conflict, there's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1686.97,"endTime":1695.04,"body":"this larger context of queer"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1686.97,"endTime":1695.04,"body":"people being oppressed, that was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1695.07,"endTime":1698.61,"body":"happening and still is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1695.07,"endTime":1698.61,"body":"happening, then there's this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1698.61,"endTime":1704.49,"body":"transition in church leadership"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1698.61,"endTime":1704.49,"body":"that you were aware of, you were"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1704.67,"endTime":1709.95,"body":"on your way out eventually. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1704.67,"endTime":1709.95,"body":"you knew that whoever you kept,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1710.28,"endTime":1715.1399999999999,"body":"whichever assistant pastor you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1710.28,"endTime":1715.1399999999999,"body":"kept there would most likely be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1715.1399999999999,"endTime":1721.35,"body":"elected as the next pastor of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1715.1399999999999,"endTime":1721.35,"body":"that church. One of them was a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1721.3799999999999,"endTime":1728.7,"body":"beloved pastor in your church,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1721.3799999999999,"endTime":1728.7,"body":"who was a man, and was doing"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1728.7,"endTime":1735.33,"body":"great work with men and women,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1728.7,"endTime":1735.33,"body":"but really, really supporting"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1735.36,"endTime":1740.76,"body":"the men in the church. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1735.36,"endTime":1740.76,"body":"another one was a woman who had"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1740.79,"endTime":1743.61,"body":"an important food pantry that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1740.79,"endTime":1743.61,"body":"was helping the community."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1744.69,"endTime":1751.95,"body":"And you were also aware of this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1744.69,"endTime":1751.95,"body":"greater transition away from"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1751.95,"endTime":1757.56,"body":"patriarchy. You were a part of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1751.95,"endTime":1757.56,"body":"stewarding in this context. Oh,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1757.56,"endTime":1760.74,"body":"wait, there is one more, which"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1757.56,"endTime":1760.74,"body":"you haven't mentioned. And I'd"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1760.74,"endTime":1764.6399999999999,"body":"love if you if you feel good to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1760.74,"endTime":1764.6399999999999,"body":"talk about it, your relationship"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1764.6399999999999,"endTime":1770.34,"body":"with the woman who you didn't"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1764.6399999999999,"endTime":1770.34,"body":"fire. Our relationship was kind"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1770.34,"endTime":1775.71,"body":"of stable at this point. I do"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1770.34,"endTime":1775.71,"body":"think and now that I consider it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1775.71,"endTime":1778.98,"body":"that I really wanted the next"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1775.71,"endTime":1778.98,"body":"pastor of that church to be a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1778.98,"endTime":1784.1399999999999,"body":"woman. Because there were very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1778.98,"endTime":1784.1399999999999,"body":"few women pastors in those days."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1784.68,"endTime":1788.19,"body":"There were virtually no women"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1784.68,"endTime":1788.19,"body":"pastors in Manhattan."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1789.3899999999999,"endTime":1794.52,"body":"And no women pastors of large"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1789.3899999999999,"endTime":1794.52,"body":"churches in our denomination, of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1794.52,"endTime":1797.91,"body":"course, you know, our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1794.52,"endTime":1797.91,"body":"denomination was very tiny. But"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1797.94,"endTime":1802.3799999999999,"body":"at that time, there were not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1797.94,"endTime":1802.3799999999999,"body":"even that many women in seminary"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1802.3799999999999,"endTime":1806.19,"body":"was just the first wave of women"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1802.3799999999999,"endTime":1806.19,"body":"in seminary. And then once we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1806.19,"endTime":1811.32,"body":"graduated, we tended to be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1806.19,"endTime":1811.32,"body":"assistants very rarely senior"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1811.32,"endTime":1815.49,"body":"pastors of major churches, so So"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1811.32,"endTime":1815.49,"body":"I think also that I really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1815.49,"endTime":1819.99,"body":"wanted that next pastor to be a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1815.49,"endTime":1819.99,"body":"woman. Yeah, so later, our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1819.99,"endTime":1824.07,"body":"relationship became very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1819.99,"endTime":1824.07,"body":"conflictual, but not yet, but"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1824.07,"endTime":1828.3899999999999,"body":"there was a lot of conflicts all"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1824.07,"endTime":1828.3899999999999,"body":"over the place. Because we all"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1828.3899999999999,"endTime":1834.24,"body":"came from these different"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1828.3899999999999,"endTime":1834.24,"body":"theological points of view, and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1834.24,"endTime":1836.85,"body":"some were very Evan Jellicle,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1834.24,"endTime":1836.85,"body":"and some were steeped in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1836.8799999999999,"endTime":1842.25,"body":"feminist theology and liberation"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1836.8799999999999,"endTime":1842.25,"body":"theology. I just remember that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1842.25,"endTime":1844.35,"body":"no matter what I preached about,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1845.37,"endTime":1847.86,"body":"there would be people who"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1845.37,"endTime":1847.86,"body":"thought I was going too far the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1847.86,"endTime":1849.99,"body":"other way, like, I remember this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1847.86,"endTime":1849.99,"body":"one"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1850.02,"endTime":1853.35,"body":"sermon, it was the same. I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1850.02,"endTime":1853.35,"body":"preached one sermon and got two"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1853.35,"endTime":1856.77,"body":"different comments. And one was,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1853.35,"endTime":1856.77,"body":"you never talk about Jesus, why"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1856.77,"endTime":1859.83,"body":"don't you talk about Jesus? And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1856.77,"endTime":1859.83,"body":"the other was, all you ever do"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1859.83,"endTime":1863.19,"body":"is talk about Jesus. Why do you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1859.83,"endTime":1863.19,"body":"do that? You know, and it was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1863.19,"endTime":1866.37,"body":"the same sermon so so it kind of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1863.19,"endTime":1866.37,"body":"illustrated to me, like I just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1866.37,"endTime":1869.07,"body":"needed to keep doing what I was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1866.37,"endTime":1869.07,"body":"doing and couldn't please"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1869.07,"endTime":1871.86,"body":"everybody. I'm curious if you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1869.07,"endTime":1871.86,"body":"feel like maybe there was even"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1871.86,"endTime":1875.1,"body":"more theological conflict,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1871.86,"endTime":1875.1,"body":"because you were one of the only"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1875.28,"endTime":1879.27,"body":"queer places of worship. But"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1875.28,"endTime":1879.27,"body":"when there's only one"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1879.27,"endTime":1883.56,"body":"institution that serving an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1879.27,"endTime":1883.56,"body":"entire community, that's a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1883.56,"endTime":1887.52,"body":"really big deal, and a really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1883.56,"endTime":1887.52,"body":"big kind of responsibility for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1887.52,"endTime":1890.55,"body":"you to try and sort of meet the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1887.52,"endTime":1890.55,"body":"needs of everyone within that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1890.55,"endTime":1894.0,"body":"community. Yeah, that was that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1890.55,"endTime":1894.0,"body":"was huge. And, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1894.0,"endTime":1897.42,"body":"founder of our denomination,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1894.0,"endTime":1897.42,"body":"Troy Perry was a Pentecostal"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1897.45,"endTime":1900.27,"body":"minister. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1897.45,"endTime":1900.27,"body":"Pentecostals are led by the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1900.27,"endTime":1904.5,"body":"Spirit, it really had to be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1900.27,"endTime":1904.5,"body":"someone who could say, oh, the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1904.5,"endTime":1907.32,"body":"Spirit told me to start this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1904.5,"endTime":1907.32,"body":"church, because, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1907.32,"endTime":1911.04,"body":"higher, you know, an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1907.32,"endTime":1911.04,"body":"Episcopalian or Catholic priests"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1911.04,"endTime":1913.83,"body":"could not have done it, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1911.04,"endTime":1913.83,"body":"know, he would have or she would"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1913.83,"endTime":1916.86,"body":"have been defrocked,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1913.83,"endTime":1916.86,"body":"immediately. So. So that's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1916.86,"endTime":1920.79,"body":"absolutely on target. Because in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1916.86,"endTime":1920.79,"body":"the denomination, there was a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1920.79,"endTime":1925.77,"body":"huge number of Evan Jellicle"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1920.79,"endTime":1925.77,"body":"people, fundamentalist people."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1926.46,"endTime":1929.7,"body":"And that was really the roots of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1926.46,"endTime":1929.7,"body":"the church. So there was also"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1929.7,"endTime":1933.15,"body":"always a class conflict going"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1929.7,"endTime":1933.15,"body":"on. Because a lot of these"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1933.15,"endTime":1936.75,"body":"Pentecostal and evangelical"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1933.15,"endTime":1936.75,"body":"pastors had never been to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1936.75,"endTime":1940.11,"body":"seminary. And those of us who"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1936.75,"endTime":1940.11,"body":"had managed I went to a very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1940.11,"endTime":1943.41,"body":"good seminary, and other people,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1940.11,"endTime":1943.41,"body":"especially in the northeast,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1943.44,"endTime":1946.8,"body":"did, too. And so you know, we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1943.44,"endTime":1946.8,"body":"also had this whole class"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1946.8,"endTime":1950.58,"body":"conflict going on between the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1946.8,"endTime":1950.58,"body":"fundamentalists, and those of us"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1950.58,"endTime":1953.34,"body":"who had been exposed to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1950.58,"endTime":1953.34,"body":"liberation theology, feminist"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1953.34,"endTime":1958.56,"body":"theology, and even really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1953.34,"endTime":1958.56,"body":"Biblical studies. So that was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1958.56,"endTime":1963.15,"body":"all going on in the church, as"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1958.56,"endTime":1963.15,"body":"well as in the denomination. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1963.15,"endTime":1967.29,"body":"that was wild, really, that was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1963.15,"endTime":1967.29,"body":"wild, we would arrive at our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1967.32,"endTime":1971.1299999999999,"body":"district conferences in general"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1967.32,"endTime":1971.1299999999999,"body":"conferences, and we, we would"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1971.1299999999999,"endTime":1973.92,"body":"fight it out, you know, about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1971.1299999999999,"endTime":1973.92,"body":"inclusive language, people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1973.92,"endTime":1977.25,"body":"didn't want the language to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1973.92,"endTime":1977.25,"body":"change. And some of us felt like"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1977.25,"endTime":1980.6399999999999,"body":"that was just absolutely"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1977.25,"endTime":1980.6399999999999,"body":"essential. And so also in the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1980.6399999999999,"endTime":1983.94,"body":"church, yes, up through all"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1980.6399999999999,"endTime":1983.94,"body":"those years, there were people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1983.94,"endTime":1989.22,"body":"who, who really had trouble"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1983.94,"endTime":1989.22,"body":"getting on board with the ways"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1989.22,"endTime":1991.05,"body":"that we were interpreting the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1989.22,"endTime":1991.05,"body":"Bible."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1992.43,"endTime":1995.25,"body":"And yeah, because we had no"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1992.43,"endTime":1995.25,"body":"place else to go. I mean, that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1995.25,"endTime":1999.06,"body":"was the gift and the curse. I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1995.25,"endTime":1999.06,"body":"think it's a bigger gift and a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1999.06,"endTime":2002.87,"body":"curse though because, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1999.06,"endTime":2002.87,"body":"we ended up with these very rich"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2003.1399999999999,"endTime":2006.23,"body":"worship services, we we would"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2003.1399999999999,"endTime":2006.23,"body":"have communion every week for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2006.23,"endTime":2009.35,"body":"the Catholics, but then we'd"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2006.23,"endTime":2009.35,"body":"sing all these blood hymns, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2009.35,"endTime":2012.92,"body":"know, all these Evan Jellicle"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2009.35,"endTime":2012.92,"body":"hams that were so campy and so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2012.92,"endTime":2016.37,"body":"much fun to sing, you know, and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2012.92,"endTime":2016.37,"body":"there really was quite a, quite"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2016.37,"endTime":2019.85,"body":"a movement of the Holy Spirit as"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2016.37,"endTime":2019.85,"body":"well as the rituals of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2019.91,"endTime":2025.55,"body":"Catholicism. You remember any of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2019.91,"endTime":2025.55,"body":"the campy hymns could share with"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2025.55,"endTime":2025.8799999999999,"body":"us?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2029.3,"endTime":2033.02,"body":"power in the blood? Does anybody"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2029.3,"endTime":2033.02,"body":"know power in the blood? How's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2033.02,"endTime":2037.8799999999999,"body":"it go? That's a real campy one."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2033.02,"endTime":2037.8799999999999,"body":"But I can't remember the first"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2037.8799999999999,"endTime":2043.04,"body":"line. Yeah, the hymns were the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2037.8799999999999,"endTime":2043.04,"body":"hymns were really wonderful."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2044.06,"endTime":2047.84,"body":"If at the end, we would sing,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2044.06,"endTime":2047.84,"body":"would you be free from the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2047.84,"endTime":2053.09,"body":"burden of sin? Yes, yes. Would"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2047.84,"endTime":2053.09,"body":"you be free from the burden of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2053.09,"endTime":2057.6800000000003,"body":"sin, there's power in the blood"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2053.09,"endTime":2057.6800000000003,"body":"power in the blood, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2057.6800000000003,"endTime":2061.25,"body":"and they were really very campy."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2057.6800000000003,"endTime":2061.25,"body":"And for those of us who, like I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2061.25,"endTime":2064.19,"body":"was raised Presbyterian, so they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2061.25,"endTime":2064.19,"body":"were very foreign to me. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2064.19,"endTime":2067.28,"body":"I've never really been into the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2064.19,"endTime":2067.28,"body":"blood of Jesus at all. But for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2067.28,"endTime":2070.7000000000003,"body":"many people, you know, those"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2067.28,"endTime":2070.7000000000003,"body":"kinds of hymns were really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2070.94,"endTime":2074.12,"body":"important. That was one really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2070.94,"endTime":2074.12,"body":"cool thing was we learned to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2074.12,"endTime":2078.65,"body":"cherish each other's traditions."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2074.12,"endTime":2078.65,"body":"That was really beautiful. I'm"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2078.65,"endTime":2083.06,"body":"just hearing to a lot about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2078.65,"endTime":2083.06,"body":"like, the importance of song,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2083.09,"endTime":2086.36,"body":"the importance of ritual, right,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2083.09,"endTime":2086.36,"body":"that even within these sort of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2086.36,"endTime":2090.17,"body":"concentric circles of conflict,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2086.36,"endTime":2090.17,"body":"there are these things around"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2090.17,"endTime":2094.76,"body":"which everyone comes together"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2090.17,"endTime":2094.76,"body":"and kind of unites and bonds and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2094.76,"endTime":2098.3,"body":"I'm wondering, you know, as"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2094.76,"endTime":2098.3,"body":"you're sitting there singing"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2098.3,"endTime":2102.8,"body":"these wonderful campy hymns"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2098.3,"endTime":2102.8,"body":"together, what it felt like in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2102.8,"endTime":2105.29,"body":"that moment, right, when you're"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2102.8,"endTime":2105.29,"body":"not sort of debating about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2105.29,"endTime":2109.1,"body":"anything, but you're all just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2105.29,"endTime":2109.1,"body":"coming together in that fashion."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2109.85,"endTime":2114.44,"body":"Yeah, it was really beautiful."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2109.85,"endTime":2114.44,"body":"You know, at the at the end of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2114.44,"endTime":2117.8,"body":"the service, well, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2114.44,"endTime":2117.8,"body":"communion was always very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2117.8,"endTime":2121.13,"body":"powerful because we celebrated"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2117.8,"endTime":2121.13,"body":"an open communion. So anyone who"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2121.13,"endTime":2125.3,"body":"just walked in the church could"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2121.13,"endTime":2125.3,"body":"take communion. And I just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2125.3,"endTime":2129.59,"body":"remember that we always would"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2125.3,"endTime":2129.59,"body":"hold people and pray with them."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2130.0099999999998,"endTime":2133.04,"body":"After we serve them communion,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2130.0099999999998,"endTime":2133.04,"body":"people would come up in groups"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2133.04,"endTime":2137.66,"body":"and then we would individually"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2133.04,"endTime":2137.66,"body":"hold people or sometimes friends"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2137.66,"endTime":2141.17,"body":"or lovers would take communion"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2137.66,"endTime":2141.17,"body":"together. And so we would, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2141.17,"endTime":2144.53,"body":"know, lay on hands and pray for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2141.17,"endTime":2144.53,"body":"people and they would sometimes"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2144.53,"endTime":2149.09,"body":"tell us what specifically they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2144.53,"endTime":2149.09,"body":"wanted to pray for. So, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2149.09,"endTime":2149.99,"body":"know, for people who"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2150.02,"endTime":2154.04,"body":"came from a sacramental"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2150.02,"endTime":2154.04,"body":"tradition, like Catholicism, who"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2154.04,"endTime":2157.31,"body":"had been told that they were"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2154.04,"endTime":2157.31,"body":"sinners and going to hell and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2157.31,"endTime":2159.92,"body":"certainly could never take"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2157.31,"endTime":2159.92,"body":"communion. And, you know, don't"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2159.92,"endTime":2164.03,"body":"set foot in the church again, to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2159.92,"endTime":2164.03,"body":"be able to come and not only"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2164.03,"endTime":2169.07,"body":"take communion, but also be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2164.03,"endTime":2169.07,"body":"prayed for in that way with such"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2169.07,"endTime":2173.63,"body":"love, you know, and touch and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2169.07,"endTime":2173.63,"body":"caring presence, you know, that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2173.63,"endTime":2177.92,"body":"kind of presence really heals"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2173.63,"endTime":2177.92,"body":"trauma. And so, so often people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2177.92,"endTime":2183.83,"body":"would just weep. And I know that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2177.92,"endTime":2183.83,"body":"what we were doing very often"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2183.83,"endTime":2187.55,"body":"was just healing people in a way"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2183.83,"endTime":2187.55,"body":"that allowed them to move"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2187.55,"endTime":2192.71,"body":"forward in a whole different"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2187.55,"endTime":2192.71,"body":"way, you know, not carrying the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2192.71,"endTime":2196.52,"body":"burden of shame and of rejection"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2192.71,"endTime":2196.52,"body":"from God, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2196.55,"endTime":2200.3,"body":"understanding that that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2196.55,"endTime":2200.3,"body":"connection had never been broken"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2200.48,"endTime":2203.93,"body":"for them with God. And then the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2200.48,"endTime":2203.93,"body":"end of the service, I remember,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2203.93,"endTime":2207.98,"body":"we would always go all the way"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2203.93,"endTime":2207.98,"body":"around the perimeter of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2207.98,"endTime":2211.16,"body":"church and hold hands and sing,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2207.98,"endTime":2211.16,"body":"there's a sweet, sweet spirit in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2211.16,"endTime":2216.38,"body":"this place. And there was there"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2211.16,"endTime":2216.38,"body":"really was, how does that sound?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2217.7599999999998,"endTime":2225.11,"body":"That sound goes, there's a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2217.7599999999998,"endTime":2225.11,"body":"sweet, sweet speed spirit in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2225.11,"endTime":2226.88,"body":"this plane."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2228.32,"endTime":2233.27,"body":"And I know that it's the spirit."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2237.41,"endTime":2247.67,"body":"There are sweet hair expression"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2237.41,"endTime":2247.67,"body":"expressions on each face. And I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2247.67,"endTime":2251.36,"body":"know they feel the spirit."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2256.34,"endTime":2258.74,"body":"Sweet, tone."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2261.53,"endTime":2262.25,"body":"Sweet."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2267.05,"endTime":2270.71,"body":"See right here with"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2272.24,"endTime":2274.73,"body":"filling us with your."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2278.36,"endTime":2286.91,"body":"For this blessing, we lift our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2278.36,"endTime":2286.91,"body":"hearts to the without a doubt,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2286.91,"endTime":2293.18,"body":"we'll know that we have been"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2286.91,"endTime":2293.18,"body":"renewed, when we shall leave"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2293.18,"endTime":2296.63,"body":"this place. Thank you."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2297.68,"endTime":2303.5,"body":"One thing that I am really drawn"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2297.68,"endTime":2303.5,"body":"to about this story is that this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2303.5,"endTime":2309.68,"body":"was a community that was facing"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2303.5,"endTime":2309.68,"body":"conflict, both externally and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2309.68,"endTime":2314.99,"body":"internally. And yet, due to the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2309.68,"endTime":2314.99,"body":"nature of the community, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2315.02,"endTime":2320.69,"body":"stayed together and faced it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2315.02,"endTime":2320.69,"body":"together. And that feels like"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2320.69,"endTime":2325.64,"body":"something that we're missing at"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2320.69,"endTime":2325.64,"body":"large in society today, where we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2325.64,"endTime":2328.97,"body":"have plenty of conflict, and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2325.64,"endTime":2328.97,"body":"then we go back to our small"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2328.97,"endTime":2335.39,"body":"bubble, and fester in conflict"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2328.97,"endTime":2335.39,"body":"instead of sitting next to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2335.39,"endTime":2339.95,"body":"somebody else in a pew and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2335.39,"endTime":2339.95,"body":"singing with them, which is a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2339.95,"endTime":2344.39,"body":"totally different, it expands"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2339.95,"endTime":2344.39,"body":"the human relationship so that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2344.72,"endTime":2347.93,"body":"we're not just in conflict with"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2344.72,"endTime":2347.93,"body":"this person. We're also human"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2347.93,"endTime":2352.67,"body":"with this person in the world."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2347.93,"endTime":2352.67,"body":"And that feels so precious to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2352.67,"endTime":2358.07,"body":"me, that community part of it,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2352.67,"endTime":2358.07,"body":"and it was a bubble. It was a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2358.07,"endTime":2361.7599999999998,"body":"bubble. I'm not sure that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2358.07,"endTime":2361.7599999999998,"body":"homophobic person would have"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2361.7599999999998,"endTime":2365.15,"body":"been comfortable there. I know"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2361.7599999999998,"endTime":2365.15,"body":"they wouldn't have been, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2365.15,"endTime":2368.9,"body":"know? Yeah, I mean, this, this,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2365.15,"endTime":2368.9,"body":"to me, what you're saying kind"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2368.9,"endTime":2373.07,"body":"of speaks to this idea of, for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2368.9,"endTime":2373.07,"body":"me boundaries. You know, I just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2373.28,"endTime":2376.28,"body":"came up with this with an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2373.28,"endTime":2376.28,"body":"acquaintance who made an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2376.28,"endTime":2380.21,"body":"incredibly homophobic remark."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2376.28,"endTime":2380.21,"body":"And I realized, I can't be with"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2380.21,"endTime":2384.8,"body":"this person. So you know, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2380.21,"endTime":2384.8,"body":"think this both sides ism, has"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2384.8,"endTime":2389.81,"body":"the limit in that when the other"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2384.8,"endTime":2389.81,"body":"side is actually denying my"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2389.81,"endTime":2394.4,"body":"humanity. I don't want to sing"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2389.81,"endTime":2394.4,"body":"hymns with them. That's where I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2394.4,"endTime":2399.08,"body":"draw the line. I think you bring"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2394.4,"endTime":2399.08,"body":"up such a beautiful point, which"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2399.08,"endTime":2402.38,"body":"is like the distinct difference"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2399.08,"endTime":2402.38,"body":"between having a boundary and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2402.38,"endTime":2406.16,"body":"saying no, and being in a state"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2402.38,"endTime":2406.16,"body":"of conflict. And it makes me"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2406.16,"endTime":2410.06,"body":"think that actually those two"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2406.16,"endTime":2410.06,"body":"things are conflated. When"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2410.06,"endTime":2413.24,"body":"they're not the same thing,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2410.06,"endTime":2413.24,"body":"right? Having a boundary can be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2413.24,"endTime":2418.0099999999998,"body":"an act of self respect, and an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2413.24,"endTime":2418.0099999999998,"body":"act of dignity. And doesn't"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2418.0099999999998,"endTime":2422.21,"body":"actually have to take on the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2418.0099999999998,"endTime":2422.21,"body":"aggression or violence that we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2422.21,"endTime":2425.9,"body":"typically associate conflict"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2422.21,"endTime":2425.9,"body":"with. And that feels like"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2425.9,"endTime":2428.9,"body":"something that I can even feel"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2425.9,"endTime":2428.9,"body":"it feel the difference in my"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2428.9,"endTime":2433.19,"body":"body between like a boundary"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2428.9,"endTime":2433.19,"body":"kind of erected with dignity and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2433.19,"endTime":2438.92,"body":"a boundary erected from a place"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2433.19,"endTime":2438.92,"body":"of being kind of violently anti"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2438.95,"endTime":2443.03,"body":"something else. Yeah. I love"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2438.95,"endTime":2443.03,"body":"that. You just said that. What"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2443.03,"endTime":2446.57,"body":"are you thinking, Karen? Well, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2443.03,"endTime":2446.57,"body":"guess I feel like this is a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2446.57,"endTime":2449.99,"body":"really important question for us"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2446.57,"endTime":2449.99,"body":"now in this country, too."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2450.02,"endTime":2453.86,"body":"You know, what, what are the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2450.02,"endTime":2453.86,"body":"values that we can agree on? You"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2453.86,"endTime":2459.23,"body":"know, we've had hundreds of anti"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2453.86,"endTime":2459.23,"body":"gay and anti trans bills passed"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2459.29,"endTime":2462.89,"body":"nationwide, one just is probably"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2459.29,"endTime":2462.89,"body":"on the verge of getting passed"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2462.89,"endTime":2466.94,"body":"here in North Carolina. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2462.89,"endTime":2466.94,"body":"there is no way that I can"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2467.27,"endTime":2472.94,"body":"imagine that any of them are"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2467.27,"endTime":2472.94,"body":"okay, you know, we can't co"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2473.0,"endTime":2476.03,"body":"exist if some of us are not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2473.0,"endTime":2476.03,"body":"allowed to exist."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2477.17,"endTime":2480.86,"body":"You know, I'm endlessly"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2477.17,"endTime":2480.86,"body":"disappointed that everyone can't"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2480.86,"endTime":2484.49,"body":"draw that line, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2480.86,"endTime":2484.49,"body":"because it is so true. You know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2484.49,"endTime":2488.24,"body":"they came for what was it, the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2484.49,"endTime":2488.24,"body":"immigrants and I said nothing."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2488.24,"endTime":2491.06,"body":"And then they came for the,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2488.24,"endTime":2491.06,"body":"whatever it was, and they said"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2491.06,"endTime":2496.85,"body":"nothing. And then there's just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2491.06,"endTime":2496.85,"body":"nobody left. And I'm feeling a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2496.85,"endTime":2500.54,"body":"sense of deja vu now, since"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2496.85,"endTime":2500.54,"body":"Trump was elected, like when,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2501.2,"endTime":2504.47,"body":"when Reagan was elected, there"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2501.2,"endTime":2504.47,"body":"was such a sharp turn toward"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2504.47,"endTime":2509.63,"body":"economic injustice that has just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2504.47,"endTime":2509.63,"body":"continued so quickly. And right"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2509.63,"endTime":2513.86,"body":"wing violence. This is a very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2509.63,"endTime":2513.86,"body":"similar time, in many ways, but"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2513.86,"endTime":2518.54,"body":"on steroids. And so once again,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2513.86,"endTime":2518.54,"body":"it feels like there's a really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2518.54,"endTime":2522.62,"body":"pretty small group of people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2518.54,"endTime":2522.62,"body":"actually fighting for justice"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2522.62,"endTime":2527.15,"body":"for, for love, really, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2522.62,"endTime":2527.15,"body":"and just like when people were"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2527.15,"endTime":2532.34,"body":"dying of AIDS, most people don't"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2527.15,"endTime":2532.34,"body":"seem to be involved. I'm"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2532.34,"endTime":2537.29,"body":"terrified of that. I'm terrified"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2532.34,"endTime":2537.29,"body":"that we had a 19% voter turnout"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2537.29,"endTime":2541.16,"body":"rate in Durham, North Carolina,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2537.29,"endTime":2541.16,"body":"you know, in the primary"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2541.16,"endTime":2546.35,"body":"election, I'm terrified that 1/3"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2541.16,"endTime":2546.35,"body":"of Americans didn't vote in the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2546.35,"endTime":2549.95,"body":"last presidential election. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2546.35,"endTime":2549.95,"body":"I'm terrified of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2549.95,"endTime":2553.46,"body":"disinformation and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2549.95,"endTime":2553.46,"body":"misinformation campaign by one"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2553.46,"endTime":2557.06,"body":"of our political parties, which"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2553.46,"endTime":2557.06,"body":"may mean that we're just going"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2557.06,"endTime":2561.53,"body":"to keep moving into fascism"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2557.06,"endTime":2561.53,"body":"really quickly. So what what is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2561.53,"endTime":2566.18,"body":"going to stop that, I think, is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2561.53,"endTime":2566.18,"body":"by not just people of color, not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2566.18,"endTime":2569.5099999999998,"body":"just queer people making the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2566.18,"endTime":2569.5099999999998,"body":"boundary, not just poor people,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2569.5099999999998,"endTime":2575.15,"body":"but everyone saying, this is not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2569.5099999999998,"endTime":2575.15,"body":"the country I want, and jumping"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2575.15,"endTime":2578.54,"body":"in. Karen, I was just wondering,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2575.15,"endTime":2578.54,"body":"you know, as kind of, I'm going"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2578.54,"endTime":2582.8,"body":"to call you like one of our one"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2578.54,"endTime":2582.8,"body":"of my queer elders, who's been a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2582.8,"endTime":2585.92,"body":"part of the LGBTQ movement for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2582.8,"endTime":2585.92,"body":"so many decades."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2587.36,"endTime":2591.47,"body":"How you where you see the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2587.36,"endTime":2591.47,"body":"movement now in terms of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2591.5,"endTime":2595.04,"body":"conflict, not just with the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2591.5,"endTime":2595.04,"body":"outer world, the obvious things"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2595.04,"endTime":2598.43,"body":"like don't say, gay bill, and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2595.04,"endTime":2598.43,"body":"all of the, you know, anti trans"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2598.46,"endTime":2601.25,"body":"policies that are going around,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2598.46,"endTime":2601.25,"body":"but conflict within the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2601.25,"endTime":2605.84,"body":"movement. Because I've been"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2601.25,"endTime":2605.84,"body":"thinking a lot about some real"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2605.87,"endTime":2610.34,"body":"kind of internal conflicts"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2605.87,"endTime":2610.34,"body":"within the LGBT community"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2610.34,"endTime":2614.15,"body":"between kind of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2610.34,"endTime":2614.15,"body":"people who've been around for a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2614.15,"endTime":2617.03,"body":"long time, and the younger"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2614.15,"endTime":2617.03,"body":"generation and differences in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2617.03,"endTime":2620.39,"body":"language and even some"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2617.03,"endTime":2620.39,"body":"disagreement around the use of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2620.39,"endTime":2623.3,"body":"the word queer, you know, a lot"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2620.39,"endTime":2623.3,"body":"of people feeling like, oh,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2623.3,"endTime":2627.05,"body":"queer is a word that was used"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2623.3,"endTime":2627.05,"body":"against us, how dare you adopt"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2627.05,"endTime":2630.68,"body":"it and bring it into the sort of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2627.05,"endTime":2630.68,"body":"dominant vocabulary? And I'm"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2630.68,"endTime":2633.47,"body":"just wondering kind of what any"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2630.68,"endTime":2633.47,"body":"reflections or observations you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2633.47,"endTime":2636.83,"body":"have on that, and what your"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2633.47,"endTime":2636.83,"body":"understanding of that is, or how"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2636.83,"endTime":2641.84,"body":"you make sense of that? Yeah, it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2636.83,"endTime":2641.84,"body":"right now, I work in an activist"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2641.84,"endTime":2644.75,"body":"community that's mostly"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2641.84,"endTime":2644.75,"body":"straight. I'm not really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2644.87,"endTime":2649.61,"body":"connected to the gay community"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2644.87,"endTime":2649.61,"body":"in many ways. And I, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2649.61,"endTime":2653.93,"body":"know that there are generational"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2649.61,"endTime":2653.93,"body":"conflicts and every activist"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2653.96,"endTime":2657.65,"body":"movement, and that's just gonna"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2653.96,"endTime":2657.65,"body":"happen. You know, I certainly"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2657.65,"endTime":2662.69,"body":"love what younger LGBTQ people"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2657.65,"endTime":2662.69,"body":"are doing with gender. You know,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2662.69,"endTime":2667.43,"body":"it's making us really conscious"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2662.69,"endTime":2667.43,"body":"of that. I love that. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2667.43,"endTime":2669.98,"body":"personally, I really like the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2667.43,"endTime":2669.98,"body":"word queer, it has a long"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2669.98,"endTime":2674.48,"body":"history. And that's why I hold"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2669.98,"endTime":2674.48,"body":"to it. You know, I feel like"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2674.5099999999998,"endTime":2678.77,"body":"right now, we are in as dire a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2674.5099999999998,"endTime":2678.77,"body":"time in a different way, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2678.77,"endTime":2682.91,"body":"know, because of the climate"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2678.77,"endTime":2682.91,"body":"crisis, because of the crisis of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2682.94,"endTime":2687.71,"body":"fascism. Destruction of our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2682.94,"endTime":2687.71,"body":"democracy, like it is just as"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2687.74,"endTime":2692.24,"body":"perilous a time, certainly for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2687.74,"endTime":2692.24,"body":"the next generation, as it was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2692.24,"endTime":2695.21,"body":"for those men with AIDS, who"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2692.24,"endTime":2695.21,"body":"knew they were going to die very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2695.21,"endTime":2701.33,"body":"soon. And so I hope that enough"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2695.21,"endTime":2701.33,"body":"people can wake up to the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2701.36,"endTime":2706.58,"body":"urgency of the situation and do"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2701.36,"endTime":2706.58,"body":"what they can to preserve"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2706.58,"endTime":2712.13,"body":"democracy, preserve the planet,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2706.58,"endTime":2712.13,"body":"stop the attacks on vulnerable"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2712.16,"endTime":2716.27,"body":"populations. You know, it's like"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2712.16,"endTime":2716.27,"body":"an all hands on deck moment, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2716.27,"endTime":2720.2,"body":"know, and I think that we knew"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2716.27,"endTime":2720.2,"body":"that and, and we rose to that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2720.2,"endTime":2725.24,"body":"occasion, largely. And so I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2720.2,"endTime":2725.24,"body":"think that right now, there are"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2725.24,"endTime":2729.2,"body":"a lot of people doing what they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2725.24,"endTime":2729.2,"body":"can. I hope there are more than"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2729.2,"endTime":2734.09,"body":"I can see, you know, and I and I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2729.2,"endTime":2734.09,"body":"hope that there aren't too many"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2734.5099999999998,"endTime":2738.56,"body":"gay people who are lulled by"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2734.5099999999998,"endTime":2738.56,"body":"feeling like these attacks"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2738.56,"endTime":2743.39,"body":"aren't going to touch them. So"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2738.56,"endTime":2743.39,"body":"let's let's get the end of the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2743.39,"endTime":2748.67,"body":"story. You you had to make a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2743.39,"endTime":2748.67,"body":"decision about this associate an"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2748.67,"endTime":2750.02,"body":"assistant pastor one of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2750.02,"endTime":2753.86,"body":"that you were going to let go,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2750.02,"endTime":2753.86,"body":"which means the other one was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2753.86,"endTime":2759.74,"body":"going to stay on and most likely"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2753.86,"endTime":2759.74,"body":"become pastor when you leave."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2759.98,"endTime":2764.09,"body":"And she did. And she became"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2759.98,"endTime":2764.09,"body":"pastor when I left, and she did"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2764.09,"endTime":2768.32,"body":"a fine job, that food pantry"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2764.09,"endTime":2768.32,"body":"continued. Now there's a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2768.32,"endTime":2771.74,"body":"shelter. They bought a church in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2768.32,"endTime":2771.74,"body":"Manhattan. I have no idea how"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2771.74,"endTime":2775.79,"body":"they managed to do that. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2771.74,"endTime":2775.79,"body":"she's still there. Both of them"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2775.85,"endTime":2778.97,"body":"are still pastoring them. Yes,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2775.85,"endTime":2778.97,"body":"yes."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2780.59,"endTime":2783.41,"body":"And when you look back on it"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2780.59,"endTime":2783.41,"body":"all, do you have any general"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2783.41,"endTime":2786.56,"body":"reflections that you learned"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2783.41,"endTime":2786.56,"body":"that you'd like to share from"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2786.56,"endTime":2789.8,"body":"that experience? You know, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2786.56,"endTime":2789.8,"body":"think that was the right thing"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2789.8,"endTime":2794.3,"body":"to do. But it was only borne out"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2789.8,"endTime":2794.3,"body":"by history. Who knows, maybe"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2794.3,"endTime":2797.66,"body":"everything would have turned out"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2794.3,"endTime":2797.66,"body":"great. If I had done something"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2797.66,"endTime":2801.17,"body":"different. I don't know what I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2797.66,"endTime":2801.17,"body":"should have done. But I'm mostly"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2801.17,"endTime":2804.2599999999998,"body":"really grateful for that time. I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2801.17,"endTime":2804.2599999999998,"body":"was pastor of that church for 10"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2804.2599999999998,"endTime":2808.55,"body":"years, and really, really"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2804.2599999999998,"endTime":2808.55,"body":"grateful. And then when I left,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2808.58,"endTime":2811.94,"body":"I've never really looked back,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2808.58,"endTime":2811.94,"body":"either. So when were you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2811.97,"endTime":2818.87,"body":"relieved of your service? 1988."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2811.97,"endTime":2818.87,"body":"So it's 1978 to 1988. That's a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2818.87,"endTime":2822.98,"body":"good chunk. Yeah, yeah, I was 35"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2818.87,"endTime":2822.98,"body":"When I left, and then I worked"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2822.98,"endTime":2826.58,"body":"in the AIDS community for the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2822.98,"endTime":2826.58,"body":"next five years. Thank you so"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2826.58,"endTime":2830.0,"body":"much, Karen, for telling us your"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2826.58,"endTime":2830.0,"body":"story. And for spending time"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2830.0,"endTime":2833.66,"body":"with us. It's such a pleasure to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2830.0,"endTime":2833.66,"body":"see you. You're welcome. It was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2833.66,"endTime":2837.44,"body":"really a joy to talk to you."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2833.66,"endTime":2837.44,"body":"Thank you, Karen. Thank you."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2846.71,"endTime":2850.0099999999998,"body":"Thanks for listening to our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2846.71,"endTime":2850.0099999999998,"body":"interview with Karen Ziggler. If"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2850.0099999999998,"endTime":2854.09,"body":"you enjoyed this episode, please"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2850.0099999999998,"endTime":2854.09,"body":"share it with your friends. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2854.09,"endTime":2856.7,"body":"tune in next time when we'll"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2854.09,"endTime":2856.7,"body":"talk with author and former"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2856.7,"endTime":2861.02,"body":"hostage negotiator George coal"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2856.7,"endTime":2861.02,"body":"reserve, about lessons he"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2861.02,"endTime":2862.97,"body":"learned in moments of crisis."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2864.08,"endTime":2868.49,"body":"Before we go, it's time for Ask"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2864.08,"endTime":2868.49,"body":"Dan."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2870.77,"endTime":2874.07,"body":"Have you ever wanted to ask Dan"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2870.77,"endTime":2874.07,"body":"Goleman anything about emotional"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2874.07,"endTime":2877.85,"body":"intelligence, mindfulness"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2874.07,"endTime":2877.85,"body":"meditation or leadership or"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2877.88,"endTime":2881.24,"body":"maybe purpose or life in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2877.88,"endTime":2881.24,"body":"general? If you've got"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2881.24,"endTime":2885.62,"body":"questions, Dan has answers"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2881.24,"endTime":2885.62,"body":"submit your question via"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2885.62,"endTime":2891.68,"body":"voicemail at Keystep"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2885.62,"endTime":2891.68,"body":"media.com/ask. Dan, your"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2891.68,"endTime":2895.1,"body":"question could be selected and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2891.68,"endTime":2895.1,"body":"featured on an upcoming episode."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2895.46,"endTime":2898.79,"body":"This week's question is about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2895.46,"endTime":2898.79,"body":"the relationship between empathy"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2898.79,"endTime":2902.81,"body":"and emotional intelligence. Dan,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2898.79,"endTime":2902.81,"body":"I've really enjoyed the series"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2902.81,"endTime":2905.18,"body":"on conflict management. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2902.81,"endTime":2905.18,"body":"you've mentioned a couple of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2905.18,"endTime":2908.45,"body":"times how empathy can be key in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2905.18,"endTime":2908.45,"body":"navigating conflict. I'm"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2908.45,"endTime":2911.42,"body":"wondering, What can I do within"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2908.45,"endTime":2911.42,"body":"myself to be a more empathetic"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2911.42,"endTime":2917.03,"body":"person? I think it helps at the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2911.42,"endTime":2917.03,"body":"start to realize that there are"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2917.03,"endTime":2921.86,"body":"different kinds of empathy. One"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2917.03,"endTime":2921.86,"body":"is cognitive empathy, where you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2921.86,"endTime":2925.73,"body":"understand how the other person"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2921.86,"endTime":2925.73,"body":"thinks, you don't just get stuck"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2925.73,"endTime":2930.83,"body":"in your own story. But you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2925.73,"endTime":2930.83,"body":"listen for theirs. And you try"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2930.83,"endTime":2936.08,"body":"to understand the terms that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2930.83,"endTime":2936.08,"body":"they use themselves to explain"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2936.2,"endTime":2940.16,"body":"the world to themselves. This is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2936.2,"endTime":2940.16,"body":"called their mental models. This"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2940.16,"endTime":2942.32,"body":"helps you be a better"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2940.16,"endTime":2942.32,"body":"communicator with the other"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2942.32,"endTime":2948.47,"body":"person. It also helps you with"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2942.32,"endTime":2948.47,"body":"certain kinds of empathy, where"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2948.47,"endTime":2952.94,"body":"you can say I see your point of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2948.47,"endTime":2952.94,"body":"view when actually being in the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2952.94,"endTime":2957.17,"body":"second kind is emotional"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2952.94,"endTime":2957.17,"body":"empathy, where you feel what the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2957.17,"endTime":2960.2599999999998,"body":"other person feels. And this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2957.17,"endTime":2960.2599999999998,"body":"happens because of the social"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2960.2599999999998,"endTime":2964.7,"body":"brain circuitry where brain to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2960.2599999999998,"endTime":2964.7,"body":"brain we form a silent and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2964.7,"endTime":2969.53,"body":"visible instantaneous link with"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2964.7,"endTime":2969.53,"body":"the other person's brain and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2969.53,"endTime":2973.7599999999998,"body":"emotions pass back and forth"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2969.53,"endTime":2973.7599999999998,"body":"through that link. This is why"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2973.7599999999998,"endTime":2978.2,"body":"emotions are so contagious, but"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2973.7599999999998,"endTime":2978.2,"body":"it helps you empathize, because"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2978.2,"endTime":2982.0099999999998,"body":"you not only know how the person"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2978.2,"endTime":2982.0099999999998,"body":"thinks but how they feel. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2982.0099999999998,"endTime":2985.16,"body":"then the third kind of empathy,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2982.0099999999998,"endTime":2985.16,"body":"which is very different is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2985.16,"endTime":2988.94,"body":"feeling that you care about"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2985.16,"endTime":2988.94,"body":"feeling a sense of concern. Each"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2988.94,"endTime":2991.79,"body":"of these kinds of empathy is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2988.94,"endTime":2991.79,"body":"based in different brain"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2991.79,"endTime":2997.61,"body":"circuitry. And the concern is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2991.79,"endTime":2997.61,"body":"based in the circuitry that is"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2997.61,"endTime":3002.29,"body":"the same as a parent's love for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2997.61,"endTime":3002.29,"body":"a child. So you're really deeply"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3002.29,"endTime":3004.99,"body":"caring about the other person"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3002.29,"endTime":3004.99,"body":"you want what's best for them."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3005.62,"endTime":3009.58,"body":"And I think that the more you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3005.62,"endTime":3009.58,"body":"can let the person know that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3009.58,"endTime":3013.84,"body":"this is motivating you, I think"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3009.58,"endTime":3013.84,"body":"the easier it will be to heal"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3013.84,"endTime":3014.5,"body":"the rift"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3023.05,"endTime":3025.93,"body":"that's our show Special thanks"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3023.05,"endTime":3025.93,"body":"to Cora, whose voice you heard"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3025.93,"endTime":3029.44,"body":"at the top of the show and to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3025.93,"endTime":3029.44,"body":"our guest Karen Ziggler. She"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3029.44,"endTime":3032.68,"body":"writes a newsletter about her"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3029.44,"endTime":3032.68,"body":"work as an activist, you could"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3032.68,"endTime":3039.43,"body":"sign up at Tiny letter.com/karen"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3032.68,"endTime":3039.43,"body":"Zig, that last part is Ka"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3039.43,"endTime":3045.7599999999998,"body":"RENZIG. That's tiny"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3039.43,"endTime":3045.7599999999998,"body":"letter.com/karen zyk. We also"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3045.7599999999998,"endTime":3048.7599999999998,"body":"have the link in our show notes"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3045.7599999999998,"endTime":3048.7599999999998,"body":"on our website at first person"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3048.7599999999998,"endTime":3049.99,"body":"plural.com"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3050.44,"endTime":3052.75,"body":"While you're there, you can"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3050.44,"endTime":3052.75,"body":"check out our guest BIOS"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3052.75,"endTime":3055.54,"body":"transcripts and resources"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3052.75,"endTime":3055.54,"body":"mentioned in today's episode."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3055.93,"endTime":3059.77,"body":"You can also follow us on"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3055.93,"endTime":3059.77,"body":"Instagram at Keystep media. If"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3059.77,"endTime":3062.23,"body":"you enjoyed our discussion with"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3059.77,"endTime":3062.23,"body":"Karen Ziggler. Check out some of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3062.23,"endTime":3065.59,"body":"our past interviews. I like the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3062.23,"endTime":3065.59,"body":"episodes with Peter haberle and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3065.59,"endTime":3068.92,"body":"Dan Harris. None of this would"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3065.59,"endTime":3068.92,"body":"be possible without our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3068.92,"endTime":3072.88,"body":"incredible team. Our hosts are"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3068.92,"endTime":3072.88,"body":"Daniel Goleman, Hanuman Goleman"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3072.91,"endTime":3076.12,"body":"and Elizabeth Solomon. Brian"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3072.91,"endTime":3076.12,"body":"Johnson creates the beautiful"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3076.12,"endTime":3079.5099999999998,"body":"art you see with each episode."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3076.12,"endTime":3079.5099999999998,"body":"Our audio editor is Michelle"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3079.5099999999998,"endTime":3083.77,"body":"Zipkin Zarina Cardin does"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3079.5099999999998,"endTime":3083.77,"body":"marketing. Our music is by Ambro"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3083.77,"endTime":3086.11,"body":"Hader and goes beats and I'm"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3083.77,"endTime":3086.11,"body":"Carrie see."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3088.18,"endTime":3091.06,"body":"This podcast is sponsored by"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3088.18,"endTime":3091.06,"body":"Keystep media, your source for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3091.06,"endTime":3093.73,"body":"personal and professional"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3091.06,"endTime":3093.73,"body":"development materials focused on"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3093.73,"endTime":3097.9,"body":"mindfulness, leadership and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3093.73,"endTime":3097.9,"body":"emotional intelligence. Next"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3097.9,"endTime":3101.65,"body":"time we'll dive even deeper into"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3097.9,"endTime":3101.65,"body":"conflict management with our"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3101.65,"endTime":3107.05,"body":"guest, former hostage negotiator"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3101.65,"endTime":3107.05,"body":"George colorizer. Until then,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3107.08,"endTime":3109.15,"body":"take care of yourself and we'll"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":3107.08,"endTime":3109.15,"body":"talk soon"}]}