REL Freedom Podcast

Joel Kraut - 7 Steps To Financial Freedom

• Mike Swenson / Joel Kraut • Episode 310

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Joel Kraut is a real estate investor, author, and private lender that helps real estate investors achieve financial freedom. He has funded over 1,000 loans of all types. He is the co-founder of BRRRR Loans and author of the book "7 Steps To Financial Freedom." Joel brings a unique 360 degree view as an investor, borrow, contractor, and fund manager. You'll help to learn actionable steps and strategies for real estate investing, including how to get started, build a portfolio, and create your roadmap to financial independence.

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SPEAKER_01:

People ask me all the time, how can I do my first deal? I tell them go to AREA, find some people who have big egos telling you to do all kinds of deals. Ask them if you can put in one to five thousand dollars on a deal so you can just kind of shadow them, right? And begin to see how they set the deal up, how they evaluate it, how they find it, where they source it, you know, all the way through contractor selection, budgeting, who do they trust, who do they not trust to go to Home Depot? How are they buying the materials? How do they know what materials are the right materials to buy? What agents do they pair up with? How do they find handymen through maybe a good agent that closes all the real freedom to the opportunity?

Mike Swenson:

Freedom, opportunities and real estate. I'm your host, Mike Swanson. Let's get the real freedom together. Building time and financial freedom through opportunities in real estate. I'm your host, Mike Swinton. If you want to get started on your real estate investing journey, check out our website, freedom through realestate.com. We've got great information on there, all of our podcast episodes, articles for you guys to be able to figure out research and understand kind of where you want to go inside of real estate, figure out different options out there. And we're here just to provide great content to help challenge you and get you off the sidelines and into real estate. Today, our guest is Joel Kraut. He is the co-founder and managing director of Burr Loans. He's a real estate investor, author of the book Seven Steps to Financial Freedom, has funded over a thousand loans, 25 years of investing experience, flipped a hundred houses, tons of stuff we can share about, but I'd love to hear from you, Joel. Welcome to the show. We're so excited to have you.

SPEAKER_01:

Mike, thanks for having us on. I mean, I feel like being here is just a natural step, right? We look at your stuff online, just having a chance to talk to you a little offline, the kind of guy you are, you know, what the values are. It's all in step with what we're trying to do with people all over the country. I mean, for me, I've been at it for a while. I started in 1996. I actually bought my first investment property then, um, had some challenges, like many of us, along the way. The crash occurred in 2008. That was really just a disaster. I had a large portfolio at the time that we had built using the cool no money down thing that we all see online, right? You can buy millions of dollars of real estate with no money. Well, we did it. We ended up with too much leverage at the wrong moment. And then we needed money badly. So, you know, we try to help people understand that a little better, right? We want people to learn from some of our mistakes and focus in on what their strengths are and sort of really analyze what their weaknesses are and how they can team up with other people. You know, for you, myself, other people we know in the industry, there's a lot of power in joint venture. A lot. You know, trying to do everything yourself, it's okay, but it's really difficult to go far. And if you're serious about changing your lifestyle, one to be more passive, one to be free, to be able to do like you do and coach basketball and really not be beholden to a clock, you're gonna have to at some point begin to come really good and not just vetting properties, but vetting people. The worst mistakes and biggest beats of my career are partnering in with the wrong people. Much more so than the real estate. The real estate scenario, uh, you know, I flipped a lot of houses, I built a lot of homes, they don't all win, but there's a number, right? There's a math equation that eventually solves the problem. But when you're with the wrong people and you have multiplicative events going on and personalities and lives and things happen, it's really difficult to unwind that. And that could set you back tremendously. So for a lot of the people listening, I know they're really focused on the real estate, the real estate, the real estate, but to me, it's a very simple business, right? I like to ask easy questions. Everyone in life's had a problem, right? People's hands go up. Everyone in life has solved the problem. Sometimes there's comedians, they put their hands down, but most people have, right? That is really what you're looking for, right? You, myself, others were really out there searching for problem situations, evaluating them quickly, providing good solutions, presenting them in a win-win scenario, and moving it forward. If we do that well and attach real estate to it, we can change our lives. And that's what we're really trying to help people focus on and not be overwhelmed. I've never done this before. I don't have enough money. They don't even know what enough is, but I don't have enough, is sort of the attitude, right? And we've had lots of people tell us that. And you know, we try to change that for them by just asking some simple questions and and walking them through some things that we think are really important, right? And and in doing that, you can see their attitudes begin to change. And then you get the fortunate ones that really step forward and go out and execute for the first time, and then everything changes. You know, once you get through that first fear, signing that closing statement, getting through title, having the money transfer, and all of a sudden you have keys. It's like, wow, that's a wild moment. I remember I was overwhelmed. I I thought this is going to be so easy. I'm a cool guy, trader on Wall Street, I got it. And then it happened, and all of a sudden I had to deal with a tenant. It's like, wait a minute, you know, that's not a trading screen anymore. There's real people involved, and everything changed. But over the years, it's it's been a lot of fun. We've met great people like yourself, had the opportunity to interact with people from a far away Seattle, Texas, sitting here in New Jersey, Phoenix, Arizona is one of my favorite places to go to and visit with people. And just the opportunities around the country are amazing.

Mike Swenson:

I remember my first closing on an investment property because I had done my first closing as a residential property, and it was the lender was there, and you get your closing gift, and everybody's happy, and you take the closing photo. We get to our first investment property, and the agent wasn't there. The other party wasn't there because it was a foreclosure at the time, and it was snowing out, and I was just by myself, and it was like 5:30, and we had to quick sign before the title office was closing up. And I was like, this is very different than my residential closing where we're all taking the photos and it's all happy. And here it's just kind of me in a room by myself, and then the apartment buildings that we've closed, it's me in a room by myself signing the documents on behalf of our investors, you know. So it's it's a little less fanfare on the closings.

SPEAKER_01:

I think one of the things to your point that a lot of investors don't realize I know Instagram makes everything look sexy, and HTTV is just wow, right? Everybody drives a Lamborghini, perfect nails, hair, nothing ever moves, changes, or loses. But in real life, you're gonna spend a lot of time alone on job sites, traveling to places, going to meet people, not necessarily with a whole bunch of people, right? And that has to be part of your mentality. You have to be maybe a little bit mentally tougher to get through that. Because you keep waiting for like this this whole cavalcade and circus of people, and a lot of times it's just not really there and it's not part of it. And people feel like, oh, am I doing something wrong? You're not, absolutely not. This is real, this is not Instagram anymore. So for us, that's that's to your point, that's one of the things we go over with people. Like, it's not like your home closing, right? No one's showing up with balloons and gifts for you. Nobody has a palm tree or some kind of greenery, you know, for good luck. You're basically going to get down and dirty with a pen, paper, title company, maybe a notary on top, and done. And it's a whole different world. But as you get used to that, it just becomes the norm. Now you're really asking questions, making sure you understand what you're signing. And you know, as a lender, we beg people to read. We beg them. It's it's unbelievable how many people three years into the loan call, hey, I didn't realize this or this. Like, you didn't realize where have you even been for 36 months? You didn't realize it. Forget about at that moment when you should have been asking any questions you had, because it's the most important thing in the world you're doing. It's your money, or it's people who entrusted you with yours and their money, right? You got to get that right. You have to get your questions answered. You should never be afraid to ask questions. People who won't answer them for you. I don't want to say run and hide, but probably find a relationship where somebody's a little more transparent and more open and willing. That's going to be really important for your success long term. You need that information flow. And to be on an island without it is really tough. Everything has to be perfect all the time. And you and I both know like it's real estate, it's humans, it's money, it's math. It's never all perfect. Anyone who tells you different just really hasn't done enough deals or they're lying. Right. So both of those are bad situations you want to stay away from.

Mike Swenson:

Now you talked about searching for problems, and this is uh pretty cool because I've talked about this in the past about if you want to get good in real estate, right? You're gonna have to solve problems. As much as we would like to think everything happens perfectly, it doesn't. And as we're talking right now, I'm waiting to hear back from a property manager on a water line that broke underneath one of our properties. And so they're in the process of determining where that's at. You know, we've owned this property for a while, things happen. And so if you want to get good at problem solving, it means you're gonna have to have problems to solve. If you don't have any problems to solve, then you can't get good at problem solving. And similarly, too, recognizing opportunities of good deals is recognizing a problem that needs to be solved. You know, it might be, you know, properties need to be updated, value add, maybe they have a bad tenant that you need to replace. Maybe the property itself's got some work to do, or maybe there's some challenges. Maybe you can rezone a property, right? So opportunity comes from recognizing problems and being able to solve it. And if you can't solve those, then you know that's a it's a lot harder to find money to be made, or it's it's harder to find good opportunities and good deals.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think again, to your point, in those situations, finding the right people to work with, because for some people, like we have a couple of orthodontists that give us money to either do our own flips with or lend with us, like they have money, but they don't have time, right? Their families don't want to watch them go do another 40 hours of something else, their wives will kill them, or husbands and wives vice versa, right? Their kids will never see them. So in that, you're you're bringing together a team. And a lot of people, you know, one of the biggest problems I really feel that they have is they listen to their own head and they're really lost in the noise inside between their ears. They pre uh conceive and preordain what the other person's thinking. Right? One of the biggest problems that I see across America in creative finance is the belief in a lot of investors' heads that they have to negotiate all these sexy terms with people. Instead of just coming up to Mike and asking Mike some basic questions and shutting up and letting Mike tell his story to begin to figure out what Mike really needs. He's going to tell you. Mike doesn't go to sleep thinking, okay, I should get six and a quarter percent for a five-year fixed balloon. I don't want a 30-year ammo, I want a 20. No, I want a 15 or a 20. The seller never thinks that way. They think I'm gonna move to the warm weather and I need 4200 a month. Well, if I can figure out a way how to get you to 4200 a month, we can probably do something. That strips away so much of that other baloney in my head. But I tell you, time and time again, when we talk to people and they ask me for help on creative finance, and I let them talk first for a little bit, I say, wow, you really got to slow down. You're injecting so much stuff into the equation, you just blew the other person away. You didn't even give them a chance to let them give you something good. Right? So we want to slow down a little bit as investors. We want to ask questions and then really listen. Not just keep telling people things. It doesn't work. It's a lot of great strategy. So I think the next two, three years are really poised to be outstanding opportunities again. I don't believe we're in a super cycle down move like the 08 through 10, but most of the country we've seen is going sideways, up some places down a little, but some places are still up. You know, some of the uh areas that people have been traditionally a little leery of, like the Detroit's south side of Chicago's, Milwaukee, haven't been like the hot buttons, Ohio, some of the less, let's just use the word sexy areas are really in vogue now, right? And you're seeing a lot of trades between investors. And what I'm starting to see, and what we see at Burr now, investors are trading with each other. The selling investor has bought the property within the last 24 months. They live 500 to 1,000 miles away. They bought the Section 8 course, they got a Section 8 or equivalent tenant, and now they decide it's not as easy as the course made it out to be. I don't like it as much, and I want out. And they're selling near the price they purchased for, a few dollars lower and exiting. And mostly in smaller or tertiary markets, and this is definitely a sign for what I've been through a couple of times, and that will extend for a while, and prices don't necessarily go down, but investors begin to put the pressure on the prices because there's no one left to trade with. No one's coming anymore. So people like yourself, myself, others that maybe have a team out there that can evaluate the deals, teams that can understand the areas well, teams that are in the areas that can handle the projects. It's a great opportunity for you to begin to slowly, quietly, methodically pick off good opportunities. Right? It's really super tough to find, you know, all these great opportunities that you see. You know, someone just made another couple hundred grand on one flip. You know, I mean, we could all make$200,000 on a flip. Buy a house for$2 million, put in$400,000,000,$500,000, and try to sell it for a shade under$3 million. But that's a hell of a lot of risk to take, right? The market moves 5%, the delay, the delays for permits and whatnot are three months, cost to carry, it's a kilo. Because I don't really see anybody cutting their expenses on their vendor side. So you know, I don't really like those types of transactions. I like really simple stuff. You know, I like to buy a house for a dollar, renovate it for 50 cents or less, and get it back on the market in 60 to 90 days. Hoping, still hoping, not absolutely knowing, that the market where I am is generally still in the same condition as when I started. So I feel like I have an opportunity to exit properly. Or I can lease it, or I can lease it with an option to buy, I can resell it with seller financing to another investor. So I have multiple strategies already before we bought the house, right? That that's important for people to understand. And I know a number of your guests have talked about that already. And I think that's really important, though, for people to take seriously and make sure before they go in they understand how they're exiting. Not enough people spend time on that.

Mike Swenson:

I remember for me, one of the big turning points, because I my background was I was a was an agent previously, but I remember talking with investors because I thought that's the way for me to learn how to invest, is to work with investors. Um, and I remember my investors as the rates started going up, they said, Yeah, I think I'm just gonna wait for the rates to come down. And so for me, I was like, that doesn't really help me sell houses to you. And so how am I gonna make money? And so then I started to explore more creative ways to put my fate into my own hands. And so that's why I really leaned into investing. And now for me, I chose to move towards apartments, but at the same time, it's like you've got to find opportunity in the market and then pick a lane and stick with it and learn it and grow. And I'm sure you guys see that a lot. For me, I wanted to not have to worry about another person impacting my decision whether or not I could buy a property. And so that's where the investing side really took off for me. But yeah, would love to hear more about your thoughts of you know how folks have gotten started, how you've seen that continue to grow and develop, and and how you guys, you know, on the lending side are able to help them.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think one of the first things I just want to comment on real quick, because you really hit on a gem, real gem. We have people come to us, they ask questions, mentees, people that meet us at events. They're on 13 webinars in a day, 13 different subjects, four times a week. That's 52 different things going through their head, and they're trying to become great. Like you can't be great like that. It's not possible. Right. So, to your point, starting to hone and figure out what your lane is, what you really like and enjoy, and then going all in on it and just getting a tremendous amount of knowledge, team with people, start to partner in on deals. You know, people ask me all the time, how can I do my first deal? I tell them go to AREA, find some people who have big egos, telling you to do all kinds of deals, ask them if you can put in one to five thousand dollars on a deal so you can just kind of shadow them, right? And begin to see how they set the deal up, how they evaluate it, how they find it, where they source it, you know, all the way through contractor selection, budgeting, who do they trust, who do they not trust to go to Home Depot, how are they buying the materials? How do they know what materials are the right materials to buy? What agents do they pair up with? How do they find handyman through maybe a good agent that closes a lot, has those types of people? Oh, I didn't really think about that. Right? You want to start to learn that. And obviously, working with more seasoned people is a great way to do that. You don't have to go risk$200,000 to begin to get that knowledge, right? We want to keep it simple. We have other people that come to us, you can imagine. They bought a house for$100,000, want to put$250 into it, add a level, making it this gorgeous colonial, adding like 1,800 square feet to it. Like, sir, respectfully. My fiduciary responsibility doesn't allow me to do that with you on the first go-around. That's a hard deal, even for me, and I've done it hundreds of times. That's a lot of humans involved in your life. That is one gigantic relationship you have to manage your way through. And I'm gonna have to make a rash decision here and say that you're not really ready for that yet. Come to me with a deal, you're buying it for$120,000, you're putting in$45,000, you think it's worth$210,000,$215, something rational,$198,000, whatever it is, so that you really can get your feet under you and begin to see how this works, right? Because you and I know there's gonna be some slippage. You're gonna spend four or five thousand dollars in an anticipator or three thousand if you can keep it down to twenty five hundred, three thousand. You did great on your first deal, right? Under 10% slippage on your renovation budget on your first deal, you're a budding superstar. And people go, oh, you really think so? No, I've seen it literally a thousand times a year in our office. So, and and I have felt the pain of going over budget. It happens, it's real. So keeping it simple when that$250,000 budget, you oops, that's$25,000. But you oops on a$4,000 budget, it's$3,500. You can wipe out two visa cards and you're okay. You know, it didn't end your life or or end your zest for potentially investing, which would be a shame to take you off course that early, right? Before you really get started and see what it's like to have three, four, five projects going, starting to get maybe like$320 a door out of it, watching the tenants really make the checks on time and starting to think, hey, you know what? These are those four or five holes on the golf course where I really hit the ball straight, and now I'm really excited to come back and play again. Right. So it can, it it really does lay out there for you, but it takes an honest assessment of your own current capabilities. And that doesn't mean you should downplay them. It doesn't mean you shouldn't think X of yourself, but you should be realistic with it. Most people think, well, I haven't done this before, I've never done anything. And I'll ask people all the time, I love single moms, right? It didn't come out right, I'm sorry. But the single mom, think about what she has to do all day. She has to budget all the time. She's constantly the logistics manager moving people around, right? So she's budgeting and handling moving people around, job scheduling, just like scheduling the week with her kids and getting to school, getting to activities, getting to work. So she has a lot of transformable skills right into that flip. But no one has ever slowed down enough with them and sort of explained it that way so they can get some confidence in making that transition and taking that fear away for them. Because, hey, now I'm really just looking at things I do in my own life and I'm applying them a little differently, but I'm applying the same skill sets. Oh, I could do that. That that makes sense to me. That's not so scary. And I tell you, some of our best players, especially the people who come from, let's say, engineering and project management, those people are really good at budgeting. They're good at scheduling and planning. That dumpster shows up 10 seconds after they they close. Those guys are on the demo, they're moving right away. The the shingles, you know, they're doing the ripoff on the on the roofs. That day it closed. I mean, they're really on it. It's great. It's really cool to watch. I always tell them like by their second, third deal, I'm like, look, if you run out of money, I'll partner in with you. You know, we like it there. I love your contractor, that guy who just finished that job, or that woman who was running that job for you. Those people are kick ass. I want them. I don't want to steal them from you, but I'll partner with you. So we see a lot of people, you know, they do two, three jobs a year and they come out well and they're easy to talk with. They follow up all the time, they're very organized. And we'll ask them, why aren't you doing six deals? Well, I don't want to get too far ahead of myself financially. I want to make sure I'm comfortable. Well, can you find the deals? Yeah, that's not really a problem. So, well, if I brought all the money and we use the same teams, we came into town to help you and support you. Maybe we have some resources that you don't have access to and we can make them available. Would you be interested? Some people say no, I don't want to partner, but others will say yes, and that gives us an opportunity to partner in together. We just closed on a property in one in Mobile, Alabama on Monday, and one in Milwaukee, Wisconsin on Monday. We already have the pictures of the roof in action and the dumpsters, and you know, it's great. And they were our clients. So, you know, partnering in together, it's never too late. I don't care how old you are, it's a smart thing to do. I wish when I was your age and younger, I had actually learned that. Instead of just learning if you want to make more money, you just gotta work harder, harder, harder. Right? Smarter, smarter, smarter. I finally read that stuff, that simple, stubborn book by Dan Sullivan, The Who, Not the How, and all of a sudden it's like, ooh, I'm so mad. Like 30 years ago, no one taught me this in school. It would have changed my life dramatically two decades ago. But again, always be learning in this area and this in your life and in the market. My life just changed again with Chat GPT. The last hundred days, so I pick a new person. Things I can do in in an hour that used to take a month to put together, even something as simple as an ebook, you know, getting your outlines together and then humanizing it. You can do that in a few hours instead of a few weeks or months, and then get it laid out properly. The the tools are incredible. And to not take advantage of that is just a shame, I feel, for people. Instead of I know it's hard to get over the fear. I got it. I'm an older guy, but it was definitely overwhelming to start. I was afraid to even open it up. But now, you know, one of the young guys in the office kind of forced me to learn instead of just doing it for me. And now I feel like, wow, I'm like an idiot that I didn't do more of this myself earlier. So it the markets are an amazing thing. It's really cool. You get to meet great people, experience great things. You know, you flip a house or build a house, you go back two weeks later and you see new fences up, swing sets, and you see people happy. You know, that that's an amazing feeling. It's a great feeling. So I I love it. I think real estate, until Apple, Google, Amazon take it away, I just feel like this is still a great place to be for long-term wealth generation, uh, enjoyment, some money on a weekly, monthly basis is hard, but can be done, takes time. But long term, it's it's a great solution.

Mike Swenson:

I love uh just a couple things that you mentioned. Uh one, you know, getting started, kicking in a little money on somebody else's deal and learning from them. I think there's a ton of value in that because it's a way to get all the information. In some ways, it's a it's an education. You could drop more than$5,000 on a course to learn about real estate and not do anything. So why not kick in$5,000 that you could potentially make more money back and learn on the job training? But then to your point, the transferable skills from engineers, you know, single moms, that sort of thing is amazing. And so if you're listening to this, like don't sell yourself short that you can't do this. Everybody can do it. To me, one of my big wake-up calls was, you know, I was so focused on being a good student, right? 4.0 grades, trying to be the best student that I could be. And I remember early on in the podcast, I interviewed somebody who was, I think maybe even the same grade as me, barely past high school, didn't know what they were going to do with their life, and had built a portfolio that far surpassed mine as I was just getting started. I remember thinking, like, why did I spend all the time in books when I could have been learning on the job, doing real estate investing? And I wish I would have started sooner. And so anybody can do it. It's it's not a smarts thing, it's learning how to problem solve, learning how to analyze risks, making great calculated moves. But yeah, you certainly don't have to be smart. Smarts doesn't equal success here. There's a lot of other transferable skills, but for people that just plug in and can learn it and can do it, any anybody can make money in real estate.

SPEAKER_01:

I feel like too many people are focused on the preordained, preordained idea of what it should look like. You have um a friend, he's become a friend over time. And I was giving a talk in in New York City at an event, and it was kind of wrapping up at the end of the day. A few people came over. Hey, can we ask some questions? Sure, I'm just gonna put some stuff away while we're talking, no problem. And there was this young girl, I hate to pick on her, but she really just spent five, eight minutes telling me all the things and all the reasons why she couldn't do this. She's dressed beautifully, she speaks really well. Um, you know, she's the kind of person everyone would want to work with, but she only could see why she couldn't do it. Out of your peripheral vision, you can see this guy off to the side. And he's in a wheelchair. He waits for everybody to be finished, and then he rolls over to me and asks, Hey, would you hang and just let me ask you a couple questions? Is that okay? I said, Sure, of course. Before I could say hello and introduce myself and get his name, he went off on a tirade from his wheel motorized wheelchair, remind you, about a contractor. So I asked him a question, like, because look, I'm like most humans, and you kind of react to the wheelchair one way, right? He'd already flipped four houses from his motorized wheelchair. So for all the people out there that are thinking about what they can't get done, think about that for a minute. We have this idea of what different things are. To him, the wheelchair is freedom. It gets him from his bed to the job site every day, right? And then from there, he can go up and down the aisles and home depot just like you and I. He doesn't see it as a barrier anymore. Of course, he wishes it's different, I'm sure. He went through that period of his life. But he made a decision, I don't know how many months into that post-injury, that he was going to live, not die, right? Not just be enslaved to his chair. So when when I'm in events or out on the street traveling around and meeting people, one of the things we always want to ask questions about is, you know, what are you doing to move yourself forward, right? Because no one's stopping to ask you at the title company if you went to Harvard. They don't even ask if English is your first language. They even forget to ask you where the damn money came from, right? So anyone can do this to your point. Yep. And that's kind of the beauty of it, isn't it? It's this great equalizer that a lot of that nonsense is stripped away from. And now it's like who wants it the most? Who is crazy enough just to keep doing it no matter what? Because there's days when you just want to go to, I don't know if you have Dunkin' Donuts by you, go to Dunkin' Donuts, get your coffee, keep the windows up and not talk to anybody. But that's just not real, right? You have to suck it up on those days and just push forward. You know, I like the book by uh Ed Milette, you know, one more, one more, right? Just, you know, you got to think about that at that moment and do your David Goggins imitation, just do anything no matter what, right? And push yourself. But the most successful men and women that I know in this business are not necessarily, quote, the most highly intelligent. They're the people who are crazy enough to keep doing it, finding good people to do it with, willing to be rejected, offer after offer after offer, realizing it wasn't someone saying that, hey Mike, you're not a good guy. It was just saying, Mike, that doesn't work for me now. Doesn't mean it might not in the future, but for now it doesn't. And once you start to understand that and you can feel better about yourself when you're hearing no all the time, it's all about money. And we all know people kind of want and need and use it. So no is not really no, it's like not right now, or maybe we have to change it a little. But it's not like this hard punch in the face, no. But a lot of people aren't used to hearing that, they haven't been in that environment. So it is a transition, it is a change of mindset. But as they make that and you can kind of see them grow out of it, it's amazing what some people have created. It's really incredible.

Mike Swenson:

Are you looking to get started or scale in real estate investing but don't know your next step? Are you overwhelmed thinking about finding deals, analyzing deals, doing due diligence, and managing properties on top of it? Go ahead and push the easy button and invest with us. Real estate investing is what we do full time. We've done dozens of deals with hundreds of doors. We have the knowledge and experience to handpick the best deals that most investors can't find. We've at large off-market deals all the time where you can hopefully find returns and economies of scale that you just can't find on your own. The best thing is it's 100% passive to you for less capital than you put down trying to acquire a property on your own. Don't let this year go by where you don't make the leap, add to your portfolio, or you just sit in analysis by paralysis. To find out more, visit freedom throughrealestate.com and click on invest. You can book a call and learn more there. So get to scaling your portfolio now with us by your side. Well, thank you, Joel, so much for coming on and sharing your wealth of wisdom. For people that want to reach out to you or learn more about what you're doing, how can they do so?

SPEAKER_01:

They can go to our website, which is really easy. It's burr.com, so bwith4r's.com. They can find us on Instagram at burr underscore loans, and they can just hit us up there and we will actually directly communicate back with them. No AI nonsense.

Mike Swenson:

Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing. I mean, just a just a ton of wisdom. There's so much more that we could have talked about, but just appreciate you off the cuff sharing for a while. Thank you so much. Please reach out to Joel. Happy to help you with loans and just great advice. Also, your book, Seven Steps to Financial Freedom. Go check that out. And uh thanks so much for coming on and best of luck to you in the future.