From The Green Notebook
Named for the ubiquitous government-issued, hardcover notebooks seen in the hands of servicemembers worldwide - This podcast dives into the notebooks of military leaders, business professionals, authors, and entertainers to examine lessons that will help listeners lead with the best version of themselves.
From The Green Notebook
The 7 Rules of Power with Dr. Jeffrey Pfeffer
Stanford professor Jeffrey Pfeffer joins Joe Byerly for a candid and provocative discussion about power—what it is, how it works, and why more good people need to learn to use it. Drawing from his influential books Power: Why Some People Have It and Others Don’t and The 7 Rules of Power, Pfeffer challenges listeners to see the world as it really operates—not as we wish it to be.
In this conversation, Joe and Dr. Pfeffer unpack why power isn’t inherently bad, how to build influence without losing integrity, and why refusing to “play the game” guarantees you’ll lose it. They explore lessons that apply equally to military leaders, executives, and anyone who wants to make change in complex organizations—from overcoming imposter syndrome and likability traps to mastering visibility, networking, and personal branding.
Listeners will come away with a sharper understanding of human nature, organizational dynamics, and what it really takes to lead with impact and authenticity in competitive environments.
In this episode, Joe and Dr. Pfeffer also explore:
- Why power is a skill—and how good people can learn to use it for good
- The critical difference between power and influence
- Why authenticity, likability, and imposter syndrome can quietly sabotage effectiveness
- The importance of appearing powerful—and how confidence often signals competence
- How building a personal brand and network expands your ability to lead and shape change
- The real costs of opting out of power—and how to navigate ambition without ego
- Why leaders need a “personal board of directors” to stay grounded once they gain power
Whether you’re leading soldiers, managing teams, or influencing from the middle, this episode offers a masterclass in understanding power—how to earn it, wield it wisely, and ensure that good people rise to positions where they can make a difference.
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The idea that people opt out is um is why I opened the book, which you know, powers of use for good more, good people need power. If you opt out, your ability to influence what's going on is going to diminish a lot. As you said, you saw people fall off, you saw people not rise to the top because they said, you know, I don't want to play the game. Well, you don't have to play the game. What I say on the in my classes that I teach both online and uh at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, what I say to people is you don't have to do any of this. But if you don't do it, don't complain about, you know, don't complain about the fact that you think these undeserving people are in positions of power or whatever. If you opt out of the game, the odds of you winning the game are essentially zero.
SPEAKER_03:Today's episode sponsor is Adaton, creators of Editon Operations Kit, the military's go-to software for personnel and equipment accountability. AOK goes where you do, any network, any time, any place. I got to know Adaton's co-founders, James and JJ, several years ago. They are former Army NCOs who have years of experience in the tech industry. They understand that most military jobs are performed behind a computer desk. Personnel and operations are distributed, but accountability of property is paramount to making mission. That's where Log E, AOK's equipment management software, comes into play. Formerly known as 92X, Loggy is the next generation of equipment management for the military. Loggy offers unrivaled features for military teams on the go. Ingest and digitize your primary and sub-hand receipts. Generate and share sub-hand receipts and DA forms with your team in just a few clicks. Capture photos, tags, and notes across your team to build context on the state of equipment. Get easy on-the-go access to critical property records. Loggy is custom built for the modern military professional. It gives you your valuable time back so you can get back to the mission at hand at home or in the field. Whether you're doing monthly inventories or preparing for deployment, Loggy is your pocket property book, giving you real-time visibility into equipment status and mission readiness. Loggy is currently in use across the U.S. Army Special Forces and it's expanding. For a limited time, listeners of the From the Green Notebook Podcast can try out Loggy for free. Visit atatompc.com forward slash F T Gn dash Loggy to get started. That's ady t on pbc.com forward slash F T G N dash L O G E. Welcome to another episode of From the Green Notebook. I'm your host, Joe Byerley. And today we're opening up the Green Notebook of Dr. Jeffrey Pfeffer. Dr. Pfeffer is a professor of organizational behavior at the Stanford Graduate School of Business and the author or co-author of 16 books, including Power, Why Some People Have It and Others Don't, and The Seven Rules of Power. His work has influenced generations of leaders who want to understand not just how organizations work, but how a power actually operates inside of them. And the topic of power is something I've been studying, researching, and reflecting on since my retirement from the Army. And since originally recording this interview, I've come to define it for myself in this way: power is a social force that allows one person to shape the behavior of others and in doing so to exert control over the world around them. And in this conversation, we dig into the definition of power, the themes that every leader, military or civilian needs to wrestle with. Like why power isn't inherently bad, and how more good people need to learn to use it for good. The difference between power and influence, and why both matter if you want to make real change. Why refusing to play the game guarantees you'll lose it, and what it means to get out of your own way. How things like authenticity, likability, and imposter syndrome can quietly sabotage your effectiveness as a leader, and why networking and visibility aren't dirty words, but essential tools for amplifying your impact. Dr. Pfeffer doesn't sugarcoat anything. He challenges us to see the world as it is, not as we wish it to be, and to recognize that mastering power isn't about ego or manipulation. It's about learning how to get things done, how to lead change, and how to ensure that good people, not just ambitious ones, rise to the top. So whether you're leading soldiers, managing a team, or navigating the politics of any organization, this episode will help you think differently about what it really means to lead with influence. So grab your green notebooks and please welcome to the show, Dr. Jeffrey Pfeffer. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me on. I just finished two of your books. Um, the one I originally wrote you about power, why some people have it and others don't. And then you were like, hey, I've published a newer book. So I read the Seven Rules of Power too. And uh I guess uh a great place to start off with is the quote uh that you open the seven rules of power with.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you mean the power is to be used for good, more good people need power. Yes. You know, I think that's important. Many people have seen uh power used for bad things for maligned purposes. Um and you know, my my general point of view is that power is a tool. It's like you know, fire. You know, you can use fire to heat yourself and cook food, or you can use fire to burn down a house. Um you nuclear power, the same thing. You know, you can blow people up, or you can actually, you know, uh light up cities. So, you know, power is a tool. It is not the fact that it has been used for ill or for bad purposes, does not mean that it's bad. And so I'm trying to get people to embrace the fact that if you're gonna Stanford Business School has a motto change lives, change organizations, change the world. If you're gonna change anything, you need influence. Because if the change were gonna happen without influence, it would have happened already.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so that's my first question. And this is something I've been thinking about a lot lately is what's the difference between power and influence?
SPEAKER_00:So power is um it's a difference between potential and kinetic energy. So power is uh you can have power and not use it, but when you use it, it becomes influence. So influence is power and use, and power is the potential to have things come out the way you want in contested situations. Uh people nationally disagree about what should go on or how to accomplish things. And so power is is the ability to get your way and influence is power and use.
SPEAKER_03:And you talk of like we, you know, you opened the book with that quote about you know, more good people need to get power. And, you know, one of the things that I was thinking about as I was reading this, and you know, the part of the background for inviting you on the show is you know, I climbed the ranks in the military and I watched a lot of people complain about office politics. They would say things like, I don't want to play the game, or I would hear things like, I'm just being me. And I saw a lot of good people fall all to the wayside of the military pyramid as it as it went to the top. And so I I think you know, one of the points you make is that power is a skill, and just like any or the attainment of power is a skill, and just like any skill uh out there, it can be learned. And so I want people who um necessarily may not see themselves as players in the game to to read this book and not look at the lens of the organization aspirationally, but how things actually happen.
SPEAKER_00:I think that's a very good perspective. The idea that people opt out is um is why I opened the book, which you know, powers of use for good more, good people need power. If you opt out, your ability to influence what's going on is going to diminish a lot. As you said, you saw people fall off, you saw people not rise to the top because they said, you know, I don't want to play the game. Well, you don't have to play the game. What I say on the in my classes that I teach both online and um at the Stanford Grandeur School of Business, what I say to people is you don't have to do any of this. But if you don't do it, don't complain about, you know, don't complain about the fact that you think these undeserving people are in positions of power or whatever. If you opt out of the game, the odds of you winning the game are essentially zero. You know, you know, you don't have to play football. Football is a hard contact sport, people get injured in football. You don't have to decide to play tennis, you don't have to decide to learn a musical instrument, you don't have to decide to do anything. But if you decide not to pursue power and learn how to master power skills, you can't complain about the fact that your career is dead-ended or that other people that you don't like are in are in positions uh of power. So, you know, you you you either play the game or you don't play the game and you don't complain.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and I I think that like for me, I didn't realize reading your book and reflecting back on my own career. I realize now that a lot of the things that I did that made me successful were the very things that you talk about in this book. Um, and I'll talk a little bit about this as we as we go through the rules, but let's talk about the first rule get out of your own way.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's I think the most fundamental rule. It's the rule number one for a reason. And you have already actually alluded to part of what getting out of your own way means. Getting out of your own way means that you have to um lose the idea that you're not going to play the game, you have to lose the idea that you're not qualified, you have to get over what is sometimes called imposter syndrome, the idea that you're not as good as some of the other people that you're competing with. You have to get over the idea of uh that you need to be liked. Um, you know, training Jerry Lovman, who ran Caesars for a long time, the casino company has this lovely saying, which I think is fabulous, don't be liking a dog. A dog, you know, a dog will love you like conditionally, you come home, the dog will jump in your arm, swag its tail. It's wonderful. That your job, and this is true in the military, it's true anywhere. Your job, they people have given you responsibilities to get things done. And you know, and sometimes getting things done requires doing things that will not necessarily make you popular. So your job, uh, so you need to get over this idea of being that you need to be liked, you need to get over this idea that you need to be authentic, nobody wants your true feelings. It's Adam Grant pointed out in his fabulous New York Times column, Unless Your Oprah Be Yourself is terrible advice, uh, which I highly recommend people read. Um, you know, um you you you need to get over a bunch of things that hold you back and inhibit your ability to do what other people are successful at doing.
SPEAKER_03:On that, I was I just wrote this last week, and I've been uh I've been reading a lot of Plutarch lately. Um, and and it, you know, you talk about the world as it is, like people were wrestling with these same challenges 2,000 years ago. And so in one of his essays, he was talking about costumes, and it got me thinking that every role that we're in, there's a set of responsibilities. There's like an unwritten and sometimes written contract, but there's responsibilities, behaviors, and costumes that we wear for each one. And like for me as the commander, there were a lot of things that I had to moderate my behavior. Um, yeah, it kind of turned down the dial on. I was still bringing my aspect, an aspect of myself to the job, but the job required me to do certain things. It required me to take people's rank, it required me to have people do things that they necessarily didn't want to do. And if I was so worried about being authentic or being um, you know, myself or being liked or being popular, then I wasn't being true to those uh responsibilities, behaviors, and costumes that that came along with that particular role. And so I think when I was younger and a lot more aspirational, I would have, you know, said be authentic. Um, but now that I've actually been in the seat, uh, you can be authentic to a point. You can put your flavor on something, uh, but at the end of the day, you've got it, you've got a job to do, just like your friend who ran Caesars, he had a job to do.
SPEAKER_00:I think that's extraordinarily well plucked. I think that's exactly right. I mean, you know, you've you've been given a set of responsibilities, you've got to exercise those responsibilities, and you have to do what needs to be done uh to make the organization successful. So I think that I think it's exactly it's exactly well said. And one of the things I think people confuse is they confuse their interaction with their friends or with the significant other or with their children, uh, with their work life, you know, and you obviously probably want to have a different relationship with your significant other or with your children or with your close personal friends than you do at work. I mean, work they, as you said, at work in the military or in any other context, you have a set of responsibilities you need to exercise. And it doesn't matter what you particularly feel. I have a I did a case on a guy named Kristen Walker, and I interviewed this person who is the founder of uh Open Table, the restaurant reservation system. And he said, you know, he said, I'm an introvert. But you know, if your employees need you to motivate them and do an employee rally, it doesn't matter if you're an introvert. It is part of your job is standing up in front of your employees and and laying out your vision and motivating them and you know, and getting them excited about the challenge that they're facing. And what you feel and what you would prefer to do doesn't matter. It is part of your job. And that's what you said so nicely in in your description that you know you have a job to do, and that job has a set of actions and behaviors and responsibilities. You have to do them.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and I I you know, going back, and this is something that I don't know if you know about this in the military, but and I'm speaking for the army, but in the army, uh the commander, the person who kind of holds the key to whether you get past the next rank, uh, can only select less than 50% of you to receive the rating that's going to take you to the next level. And so, for you know, if you have six people serving side by side with each other, you know, only half of them are going to get past Go. And so again, going back to there's this aspirational aspect of the military that we all like. But the truth is, is that not everybody is going to be able to move on. And so there's things that we have to do, or at least things we have to be okay with. And for me, I was super competitive when I was younger. And then in my last assignment, when I was no longer competing against the seven other commanders that I was commanding alongside, uh, there was this huge, I felt a huge relief off. And I the even the decisions I was I was making, professor, weren't um geared towards the future anymore. It was just in, you know, what I need to do right now for this organization. But I didn't realize that till I was in that position that all those other times in the back of my mind was doing the things. Yes, I was focused on my organization, but I also always had in the back of my mind that only a quarter of us, whatever, were going to get to move to the next level. And I needed to do the things that were gonna help um, you know, tip the scales in my favor, so to speak.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
SPEAKER_03:Well, the uh the next thing, the rule number two is is you talk about is breaking the rules. And this one is one where I think um, you know, on the surface, just the name of it would make some military leader shudder. But you're not necessarily talking about breaking the law or anything like that, are you?
SPEAKER_00:No, I'm talking about basically, you know, I think organizations and individuals basically succeed by by figuring out how they can stand out that oftentimes involves uh breaking the rules. Um, as I point out in that chapter and in talks that I sometimes give, um, social change is accomplished only by people who broke the rules. When Rosa Parks refused to sit in the back of the bus, she was breaking the social convention. When uh when the civil rights movement organized the sit-ins at the War Worth Launch Counters in the South, where African Americans were not supposed to sit, they were breaking the rules. Uh, when Nelson Mandela became the father of South Africa, while he was literally in prison, he was the uh breaking the rules, he was breaking the apartheid laws, which is why he was in fact in jail. So social change occurs only by people breaking with rules and laws and social conventions, and change occurs only by breaking with rules and laws and social conventions. And we take things for granted, you know. And my I have a very good friend who I use occasionally as an example in the Seven Rules of Power, named Laura Esserman, who's an amazing breast cancer surgeon, an amazing oncologist, and an amazing person trying to lay to lead change in drug development and many other things. She teaches at the University of California, San Francisco, which is UC's medical school in the San Francisco Bay Area. And she has this lovely line, because she breaks the rules all the time. I mean, she she goes against conventional wisdom. It's one of the reasons why she's been able uh to save people who've otherwise been considered to be incurable. I mean, she will tell you several things. Number one, everything she learned about treating breast cancer when she was a student at Stanford Medical School is now obsolete. So if you don't, if you if you did not break with what was at one point conventional wisdom, there would be no progress in medicine. I mean, we've we we've we've learned a lot. Secondly, she often will smile and say, who made the damn rules anyway? I mean, you know, so so so she is very much a rule breaker and is known for defying conventional wisdom. Um, it's gotten her into in quotes trouble with the American Cancer Society. Um, though on the other hand, uh they gave her their highest award. It's gotten her into problems with the Susan Coleman Foundation. They also gave her the highest award. I mean, she has uh she has a very at the time, it was completely unconventional. When I tell you what it is, you'll say it makes common sense to me. She said, you know, she said, we know the American Cancer Society guidelines for breast cancer screening is every woman beyond a certain age needs to be have a mammogram once a year. And she said, this is ridiculous. You know, there are some women because of their genetic history or their prior exposures, um, should be probably screened every three or four months. And there's some women who don't need to be screened every five years. So why not have screening tailored to the risk profile of the individual as opposed to have, you know, this one size fits all? That's got her into trouble. Um, she also published a paper with a colleague of hers that demonstrated that actually the screening for prostate cancer and breast cancer actually has not reduced the mortality rate. And we can go into why that is. But in any event, so she has, I think, been throughout her career someone who has um, you know, said who's challenged conventional wisdom. Um, and I think I think if you're gonna make change, you have to challenge conventional wisdom.
SPEAKER_03:There's another story that I'm thinking about too, because again, military podcast is I think it was like 1929 or early 1930s, two mid-grade officers uh in the army, a lieutenant colonel and major, uh went out one day and played around with the tank and started talking about these ideas for how it should be used in combat. And uh it went against the conventional wisdom, against the doctrine. And one of them was pulled into the commandant's office and said, if you publish anything like that again, you were going, we're gonna we're gonna court-martial you. And those two officers were uh Dwight Eisenhower and George Patton. And they went on in World War II to you know push against a lot of the convent convention. And we saw we saw what happened. And even to this in modern day, like the commanders who I've seen make the most progress and do right by the organization are the ones who are willing to do wrong by the organization, uh, so to speak, is is not be bound by uh you know a lot of policies and bureaucracy, but to to push through that to create change. And they've they were able to and still able to bring like a wake of power along with them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I'd say there's a famous case that my colleague Mike Tushman of Harvard Business School has taught for a gazillion years. It's entitled Gunfire at Sea. And is the it is a naval equivalent of the story that you just told, um, where this is this relatively low-ranking officer on a ship. This is, of course, from the 1800s, and you know, then you fire cannons, but the problem with firing cannons from a ship is that the ship or guns from a ship is that the ship is moving, you know, one minute you're firing it into the sea as a power into the air or whatever. And he came up with a way of making uh the gunfire much more accurate. And uh the same thing was it was resisted initially and then it was adopted.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so for anybody that's like, huh, I want to learn more about that story, it's uh it's Admiral Sims is the uh is a guy, and he actually had to appeal directly to the Secretary of the Navy at the time, uh Theodore Roosevelt, to uh to get through all the bureaucracy and get the way we do naval gunfire changed. So that's a that's an awesome story. So thanks for thanks for bringing that one up. I'd like to introduce you to our newest partner, Roger Bank, a modern digital military bank built by military members for military members. Whether you're stationed stateside or overseas, Roger is designed to meet the unique needs of our men and women in uniform. I recently opened an account myself and the process was incredibly smooth. It took less than 10 minutes from start to finish. Now, here's why I'm excited to partner with Roger. They offer high-yield checking and savings accounts, zero account fees, early payday, and automatic savings with Roundup Match. Their military-ready direct deposit form is even autopopulated and signed by the CEO, saving you time and hassle. Plus, you get free global ATM access, real person customer support, and they even offer accounts for service members as young as 17. Funds are FDIC Insurred through Citizens Bank of Edmund so you can bank with confidence and peace of mind. Visit Roger.bank to learn more. That's R-O-G-E-R.bank. Um, another rule is to appear powerful. So so what does that look like?
SPEAKER_00:So, you know, I think we respond to how people look. We respond to how they talk. Uh we respond by far the least importantly to the content of what they say. So I think you want to um you want to have a look, you want to have a you want to show up in a powerful fashion. Um, I'm not suggesting, you know, plastic surgery or anything. It's interesting. I had the privilege of knowing the late Jack Villeneuve, who for 38 years was head of the Motion Picture Association of America. Jack Villeneuve was five feet four. I mean, that is just a physical fact. Um, but when he came to my class, I still remember the first time he came to my class after the next class, I said, What did you all think? And a woman said to me, you know, he's short, but he feels big. You know, I in the sense that you can you can show up in a way and think about how you dress and how you how you speak and the the tone of voice you use, etc. Um, in a way that conveys power. And we respond subconsciously to how people look. I mean, you can go to the zoo and see you know the gorillas, uh, some of them are beating their chest and and puffing things out, peacocks, etc. Um, and you know, and and and so even in the animal kingdom, we we we respond uh to how people show up. And so you need to show up in a powerful fashion. You need to speak with confidence. Confidence is often assumed to reflect competence. So, you know, you need you need to show up in a confident fashion. Um, you know, I say this, many of the students at Stanford, of course, go on to start their own companies. Uh there in this very entrepreneurial culture. And if you're gonna, if you're gonna get people to invest in you, you can't you can't show up and look modest and you know, and hesitate and you know, have uh ums and ahs and whatever. You got you gotta act like you know what you're doing. The late Andy Grove, one of the co-founders of Intel, has this lovely line. He said, half the time when we were starting Intel, I didn't know what I was doing. But you can't, so sometimes you have to act like you know what you're doing even if you don't.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and I I've talked about this before on the show. I have there have been times where I have been so unsure of what I was doing, but the job I was in didn't allow for that. Like I didn't allow, like nobody gave a crap that I was hesitant, that I was scared, um, that I was trying to figure it out. So I would just say, like, what would a person who was really good at this job and who knew what they were doing, how would they act? And what would they say and what would they do? And I that's what I would do. And uh it ended up working out for me. Eventually I figured it out. Um, but yeah, I agree with you. I think that sometimes, like, again, going back to rule number one, get out of your own way, is that people try to keep it real, keep authentic, and people don't want to see a leader who is super hesitant, who seems scared and timid in a leadership role.
SPEAKER_00:That's that's exactly right. So I can understand now, having talked to you for this little bit of time, why you did well in your army career.
SPEAKER_03:Oh man, thank you. I'm gonna keep this part in there. Um, I I wanna I want to talk about the next thing, and this is another, again, this is another rule where people uh it feels gross, I think. But again, you're talking about human nature, building a brand.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, every every every company builds a brand. A brand statement is, you know, a short description of of how your life experience and how your background has uh brought you to where you are and made you uniquely qualified for that job. So I alluded earlier to my uh example of Tristan Walker. Tristan Walker was an African-American man who found that the conventional razors did not shave uh because of the difference in uh in African American skin. And he went to you know a bunch of drugstores and found that there were basically no products, both hair products and skincare products. There was almost no products, and they were certainly not prominently displayed for people of color. And of course, the uh the Latino population in the US is the fastest growing segment of the US population and the African-American population, a significant population. So he started Walker and Company brands to make uh product uh for these under these underserved markets. He began with a razor and then he went into other products as well. He was eventually bought by Procter and Gamble. And before he launched the Walker and Company, he was an entrepreneur in residence at Andreessen Horowitz, which is I think now called A16, the venture capital firm. And he was, you know, he was trying a bunch of stuff that everybody else was doing. And Jeff Jordan, the open table guy who is now at Andreessen Horowitz. Said, you said one of the things we look for in founders is a founder business fit. In other words, what about the business that this founder wants to found? It makes this individual uniquely qualified to do this. So here you have Tristan Walker, a black man, founding a company to make products for black men and black women, and then Latino women and Latino men in an underserved market, you know. So he has a life story that makes him uniquely qualified to do that. Um, so you want you want to build a brand, and then you also want to, I think, transmit that brand. You want it to be known by somebody other than your significant other and your children and your mother and father. You so you need you need to get the brand out into the world through LinkedIn and giving talks and getting yourself invited to conferences and whatever.
SPEAKER_03:I think you know, publicity, publicity is important. Yeah, and a couple of things on this, and this again, this is me looking back on a career in retrospect, but I started from the Green Notebook when I was a captain in 2013, and I spent the next decade plus writing about leadership, leader development, sharing my thoughts on it. And, you know, I'm doing it out of um, you know, because I want to write, because I want to create, because I want to help people. But like when I look at through the rules of power, um, when I look at it through that lens, I'm transmitting my brand to everybody. I'm telling people that I'm into leader development, that I'm into reading, the things that we're promoting in a military profession. And so I'm basically just transmitting a business card out there all the time with consistency. And that, you know, now like I'm like, okay, yeah, I did. I I built a brand. I would that wasn't the plan. Um, but like here I am wearing a shirt from my website and a hat. So um I guess I'm wearing the costume of it, but I think that is important. And I think um, you know, for for for you, Professor, like right now, the chief of staff of our army wants people to write and to publish in our journals and on blogs and stuff like that. So I think that's a really good way to, you know, if if you're looking at it through a career progressive uh career enhancement lens is by using this to build your own personal brand.
SPEAKER_00:And also, I think as you just described, it also helps you um transmit knowledge. I mean, you know, most people are pretty bad mind readers. So if you have an idea in your head and you don't put it out in some format or a variety of different formats, nobody will ever know. So if you want to share your knowledge with the world, you have to actually do what you did, which is share your knowledge with the world.
SPEAKER_03:And to build that brand and to share that knowledge, I think is a great segue into the next lesson, which is to another like gross one, it feels like for a lot of folks, but it's really important is to network relentlessly.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you know, if if leadership management is getting things done through other people, it seems only like common sense that the more people you know, the more you'll be able to get done. I mean, we live in an interdependent world in which in which we rely on other people to help us. We will and and we give them help in turn. And so you need to you need to expand your network. Uh, there's absolutely no question about that. And if you're not spending six to eight hours a week meeting people, um, you're you know, you're not spending enough time building social relationships. And um, you know, and and also I think we mostly spend time with the people that we know well and we like and that are close to us in terms of you know our friends and family and close work colleagues. But the problem with them is that they know pretty much the same people and the same things that we do. And that's why one of the keys to successful networking is to build a lot of weak ties, ties to people that with people that you don't necessarily see all the time and that certainly are different from you, but the more different people you run into and the more different people you know, the more likely it is that you will see new opportunities and learn new things. I mean, if you spend all your time talking to people who who who know the same things and the same people you do, it'll be comfortable, but you won't learn anything.
SPEAKER_03:When you say weak tie, like how does that help?
SPEAKER_00:Well, because you learn non-redundant information and build non-redundant contacts.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I I was I was thinking about uh like one of the the people I looked up to early in my career was uh General H.R. McMaster, who's who's a resident there at the Hoover Institute. And I was working for him, and um I remember he had it seemed like he had his feet in various social circles, uh, in academia, in um the political sphere, in the military sphere. And I was watching him interact with each of those and learning from it. And I guess like that almost that became a model for me um as as I continue to go up. And so, you know, in my my own social circles, it's it's folks in the literary world, it's folks in the military, it's folks in in other enterprises. Um, but I've learned so much more. And then I think we're able to bring that stuff back to uh and it it gives us a uh, you know, it I feel like it gives you a competitive advantage when you're able to bring stuff from those weak tie relationships into the sphere of work where you're at.
SPEAKER_00:You're absolutely right. There's a lot of research that demonstrates the the truth of what you're talking about. So it's it it's it's a networking. I mean, many people find networking dirty or unpleasant or whatever. And but networking also successful networking is an act of generosity. I mean, networking is figuring out how you can connect people who would benefit from being in touch with each other, with each other. So it's it's you know, it's it's it's not just you know, you going to a cocktail party and collecting business cards. It's you figuring out what people want and need and what their agenda is. And oh, do I know somebody in my social circle who could be helpful to them or vice versa? And then come making that connection.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, there's there's a uh and I think you know, for folks listening in the military, especially like if you're a commander, uh, I was able to help more of the people who worked for me uh get jobs that were outside the normal career path because I had connections uh and relationships outside of it. So I was able to connect people who had questions about different branches, different special mission units to those people. Um, and I was able to get them down that path, you know, something that I wouldn't have been able to do personally because I didn't have experience. Well, I want to uh I want to skip over six and seven. And so if you are interested in learning what six and seven are, then you have to read uh Professor Pfeffer's book um on uh on the seven rules of power. But I want to, this is something that I've been examining a lot lately. Um, is is the allure of power and how it draws people. And you know, like people have written for millennia about it, you know, it's it's uh it's allure. And um, I I know you're a fan of Robert Carro's work. And and my favorite quote from the power broker about Robert Moses is some men aren't satisfied unless they have caviar. Moses would have been happy with a ham sandwich and power. And so um, you know, for for you, what why is it such a a draw? And does power corrupt? Does power reveal? What what are you what's your take on it?
SPEAKER_00:Um, well, I don't think power corrupts power. Once you have power, I think it permits you to, you know, as I said earlier, to get things done and to accomplish many things. Power, and by the way, not everybody I think is attracted to power. Many people say, I don't want it, you know, because power has a price. In the first book, you mentioned power, why some people have it and others don't. I have a chapter on the price of power. Uh, one of the things that power does is it makes you much more visible, you know, and then some people are going to scrutinize everything you do uh much more when you once you have power. That's number one. Power also requires a lot of effort to get it and maintain it. And not everybody wants to expend that effort. Um, it makes you a target of envy and resentment. Nobody says, you know, you're at the bottom, that's where I want to be. Uh, you know, there's much more attempt. You know, I had a friend of mine, uh woman who um does consulting with CEOs of Swiss financial services firms, and she said, you know, she knew when you become CEO, when you become a general um in the army, many people are gonna look at you and say, why you would not be? Um and you know, and people will try to, in the case of the CEO, um, some of them will wait until you leave, some of them won't, in terms of getting your position. So power makes you a target, uh, you know, as well as making you visible. Uh, and so not everybody wants power. Uh, but but you know, I have a I did this podcast for a couple of years called Pfeffer on Power. And one of my guests was a guy named Michael Grun, uh, who is very well connected. He's a media influencer or a social, he knows everybody. Um and uh and what he said to me is that I have a choice between power and money. I would pick power. Money will sometimes get you power, but not all rich people, in fact, have power. But power will also almost invariably get you money and and and you know free trips and free this and free that. And so power, I think, has you know, comes with a lot of perks. Power also, and I end the the uh the power book with this quote or with this uh idea. Uh there's a guy, a British epidemiologist, Sir Michael Marmott, who's done these studies, and he's found this observation that in the British Civil Service, you're higher you rank in the British Civil Service, you're lower your risk of cardiovascular disease. And he explored why that was. And it's not that they necessarily have more education or that they smoke less or have better genetics. The power gets you the ability to control your life. And one of the most stressful things in the world is to not have control over what you do, what when and how you do it. And so power gives you freedom and autonomy, and that autonomy helps you have a healthier life because it reduces stress.
SPEAKER_03:And so I guess my next question then, and uh, we'll start wrapping this up, is like I noticed it when I was in command that there were at times where like my ego uh would almost take over. And you know, like I would demand things, I would be like, Well, why am I not getting this? And uh there were times where I would caught myself at a crossroads of power giving me the opportunity to act whichever way I wanted, um, even though it may not have it may have been like kind of against what I believe or what I value. So for folks who are interested in attaining power, what would you suggest? And I and I'm asking this knowing that you don't teach ethics at all, but what would you suggest they do to kind of safeguard themselves? Because one of the things that you have, you know, you have written about is that power kind of opens up your inhibitions um when you do have it. And so I know in the military that gets a lot of us in trouble when we're in positions of power and we aren't self-regulating. So, what would you suggest to somebody? That was a very long question, by the way.
SPEAKER_00:No, that's okay. That's a very interesting question. So, you know, I think everybody needs some version the Wall Street Journal talks about this as a personal board of directors. I think you need a set of people who you trust who are not in a position to be competitive with you or in different spheres or different domains or different organizations or whatever, who will tell you the truth. Um, you know, and and and and people that you trust and you will listen to. So I think you need, just as a company needs a board of directors uh to give them objective advice and to hold them accountable. I think you need it. Uh people need boards of directors, small set of small set of trusted confidence who will tell them the truth, who will give them advice, and who will hold them accountable.
SPEAKER_03:Because, and I guess this is what I would throw back to you is in all your studies, in the one thing I love that you talk about is that you know, let's look at human nature for what it is, not what we want it to be. And so that with power comes all these temptations. So by having these people in your life and around you, uh, you are safeguarding yourself against the realities of power.
SPEAKER_00:I think that's extremely well important.
SPEAKER_03:I think that's exactly right. Awesome. Well, I guess in that case, Professor, one other point, and then we'll uh we'll wrap this up. One of the things that uh I keep a notebook while I've been reading your book of uh a reading list on power. Um, because in both books, Seven Rules of Power and the book Power, uh, you are like a gateway drug uh for Amazon, um, for articles and different research studies. So for folks interested in learning more about power, besides reading um your books, what what other you know books would you recommend on it?
SPEAKER_00:Well, you well, you mentioned one, um, or several. I mean, I think Robert Cairo has been fascinated with power for a long time. The Power Broker is a long read. Maybe you want to listen to it rather than read it. Uh, but the story of Robert Moses, who was, you know, became uh parks commissioner, but uh, even though that doesn't sound like a position of enormous power, he basically built much of New York City and influenced urban development all around the world. Um uh Robert Cairo, C-A-R-O, has also written a series of books about Lyndon Johnson called The Path to Power. First book is about Johnson's early career and how Johnson went uh as an aide to a Texas representative, didn't even know. That's it. That's it. You got you got the books. You know, you you know these books. Um, you know that um, you know, that the that the how he went uh to uh Washington as a kind of very sophisticated guy from Texas, a young man, and became the extremely powerful. Um, and how he and then there's uh Master of the Senate, which talks about how he took this nothing job and turned it into becoming the youngest uh majority leader in the history of the Senate. He's now writing writing a fifth book, but in any event, there are four volumes of him on Lyndon Johnson, which I think are fabulous case studies of power.
SPEAKER_03:Well, Professor, thank you so much for your time today. This was uh this was a great discussion, and it's been one that's been uh kind of rattling around in my head for a while now.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, it's a pleasure being with you. And you clearly have thought and continue to think a lot about this topic. And that I think would be another thing uh that I think your listeners ought to do, which is instead of saying, you know, I don't want to know, have anything to do with power, whatever, learn about it. You know, I mean, there is in fact an enormous social science literature. There are fabulous biographies about people who some of them are not nice people, but you know, some of them are. And, you know, I think you ought to, I think your readers ought to read more.
SPEAKER_03:I love that. That's a perfect way to end. And and I agree with you again. Well, thank you for your time today. This was uh an awesome discussion.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thank you for inviting me on the Green Notebook. It's a pleasure.
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