Season 4 - Episode 24 - SciLux with InTune - Music Education and Movement

In today's episode of Scilux, we look at music performance and education in Luxembourg. Joined by Eva Klein from In Tune (the Philharmonie Luxembourg podcast) and our guest, Luc Nijs, Associate Professor in early childhood music education, we explore the intersection of technology and traditional music practices. Discover the importance of physical preparation for musicians and the fascinating ways in which digital tools and wearable devices can change the musical landscape and feed creativity.

USEFUL LINKS

In Tune podcast - https://play.rtl.lu/shows/en/in-tune-philharmonie/episodes
More about Luc Nijs - https://www.lucnijs.be
More about the IAS Audacity projects - https://www.uni.lu/research-en/ias/funded-projects/audacity/

Transcript

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Hanna: Hello and welcome to SciLux, the podcast where we talk about scientific developments and technological changes in Luxembourg, today partnering up with InTune. This means that we will also have Eva Klein from InTune podcast of the Philharmonie joining us. And I have to mention that as usual, we are supported by Research Luxembourg and recording at the Media Centre of the University of Luxembourg. And in today's episode, our guest is Luke Nijs, who is Associate Professor in early childhood music education. Luke holds a PhD in Art sciences, MA, degrees in music performance and philosophy, and a teacher certificate next to his affiliation to the University of Luxembourg. He is Visiting Professor at Ghent University, affiliated to the academic chair, social action and musing making. Luc, thank you very much for coming today.

Luc Nijs: Thank you for the invitation.

Hanna: And thank you, Eva, for agreeing to host with me today.

Eva Klein: Thanks. It's a pleasure. I'm really excited for this discussion.

Hanna: I have in front of me a long list of questions, even bigger one, because I have also Eva's questions. And as usual, I never know where to start. But I think I would like to start actually with music performance as such. So let's just start with the current trends. This is completely a field I have no idea about. I'm pretty sure that Eva knows way more than me. So, first of all, what are the current trends in research and music performance?

Luc Nijs: Well, I think, one thing we cannot neglect, or what's going on, is the role of technology. I mean, we're living in the 21st century, and technology has made its entrance already since many years. But I think now we're in kind of an evolution where it's used more and more, and, of course, going now to VR/AR, so virtual reality, augmented reality, the use of sensors in the performances and so on.

Eva Klein: At the same time, if I may, I think the COVID time has really made us miss in person performances. Like actually sitting there in the concert hall, experiencing that collective effort lessons, sitting next to people, feeling their emotions. So as much as digitization is, of course, going faster and faster at the same time, I also feel like people are yearning for simple, in the moment, embodied experiences, just being there.

Luc Nijs: Yeah, for sure. I mean, the whole Covid situation has made that very clear how much we need it so this is very important. The contact, being together in the same room, the vibrations of the music, not through a screen or a headphone, but, just by being there is, like, extremely important. And that goes to many aspects of music performance that are so important. How we interact with each other. You know, little things, very often can be little things in the audience, can be little things between the different performers. Those are very important, and very often we cannot see them on the screen at the same time. I like to see, this as a challenge, and, many people do that. So the whole thing of network performance and performing over the Internet, let's say we are in Luxembourg and we can perform with somebody in, let's say, China, it's possible. So this has also instigated quite a revolution in performance, actually.

Hanna: And you personally, do you enjoy that or it's more about, okay, well, it's a current trend, so I have to jump on board?

Luc Nijs: Well, I'm a very embodied performer, so I like the live thing. I haven't done it, actually networked. I don't like it. It's as simple as that. Of course, I've looked at what's going on in the research and so on, but when I perform with my band, I just want to be with them in the same room. Also because I like to dance when I perform.

Eva Klein: I have to say I'm with Luc here. To me, there is nothing quite like just sitting in a full concert hall with about a hundred or, or even a thousand people around you and feeling that energy, feeling the performers as well, really connecting with you. I've even read that, of course, it can't be demonstrated. We would have to wear devices to prove it. But it could be that heartbeats actually sync with the music when a piece is being performed. So there's something that really happens way beyond the stage. It's a very connected experience. However, I can also recognise how digital connected network experiences also add value to that. If anything, it helps perhaps bring people to the live experience. In the end, a digital experience of performance can be a nice first step, a nice entry door into the actual world of live music. So they complement each other, maybe in a nice way.

Hanna: Well, of course, there's also something we cannot really forget about is the fact that you have access to certain things that normally, you know, you cannot go to. Right? Of course, everyone can go to the Philharmonie every day, so I know there are loads of people who have the subscriptions and everything, but at the same time, it's really good to be able to actually see people performing, especially these artists that don't come to Europe very often, or just don't come to Luxembourg as such.

Eva Klein: Right, absolutely.

Luc Nijs: And also for education, because, you have parts in the world where it's perhaps more difficult to go to a music school, for example, and then providing online lessons is always a good thing to make music more accessible to more people.

Hanna: As you mentioned, music school. I think this is a brilliant moment for us to look at the pub quiz question that you prepared for us today. So, listeners remember, the pub quiz question, as usual, is in the beginning, but the answer only at the end of the podcast.

Luc Nijs: Okay, so if we look at music schools in Europe, let's say, how many students do you think are, enrolled in music schools in Europe?

Hanna: We are not giving any a, b, or c. It's really one number that you have to give us, and that's gonna be only revealed at the end of the podcast. Thank you very much. I have to tell you that Eva was surprised when she learned the answers.

Eva Klein: I was. Amazing.

Hanna: Okay, we'll know that in a second. But coming back to musicians, I wanted to also discuss... We started a little bit with the theory, let's say, but not that much. I wanted to start, actually with the physical preparation, because I was always wondering, you know, how does it work? How physical is the preparation of, a musician right now? And what is your opinion about it? Should there be a gym time for a musician or not really?

Luc Nijs: Well, we have to say that performing music is quite an intense activity on different levels. The physical, the mental, also the affective level, so emotional level. So there's a lot going on, let's say. And of course, if you, let's say, you play, a recital takes you 45 minutes, a little break, and then again half an hour, and you have to play these difficult pieces. That is quite an effort, and sometimes that is forgotten, I would say. So, physical preparation is important, but maybe also neglected in our domain. Let's say, if you play difficult pieces, for example, and, you need flexibility, you need endurance, all aspects that you also need when you do sports, for example. Yes, you have a critical audience that listens to you. You want to play as well as possible so you have to be in a good shape. This is really, really important. Sometimes I smoke too much, and then if I then have to play on my clarinet, yes, sometimes, you know, endurance is inhibited by just the smoking. So, yes, physical preparation is important, but neglected to some degree.

Eva Klein: It's interesting that we use the word performance also to talk about music. It's a word that's actually borrowed from the sports world. It's quite interesting.

Luc Nijs: I prefer play. 

Eva Klein:  Musicians are athletes of sorts. 

Luc Nijs: Yes. And you also see that, for example, if you look at the Research, for example in the Netherlands, they show, how difficult sometimes it is for the body to cope with performing music. So we have many, many physical problems. Some research even goes up to, if you look at orchestras, for example, that up to 90, 93% of the people in an orchestra suffer from physical problems. This is huge. There is a strong need to take care of the health of musicians.

Eva Klein: Absolutely. And I think there is a need for musicians to learn to take care of themselves as well. I see that some universities, like the University of Hanover, I believe, are starting to build into their music training programmes, some physiology courses. Our very own Luxembourg Philharmomonic Academy also includes some mental, but also, of course, physical well-being, coaching. So I feel like there is slowly a change of mindset in the academic world.

Luc Nijs: Yes, but it's not new. We have different approaches or techniques that are already existing for such a long time. I'm thinking of Alexander technique, Feldenkrais, and so on. They are about body awareness. When you perform, this is very important. Now, there is this whole idea of what every musician should know about the body. And you have different approaches to, taking care of body awareness, bodily health. But it's more, how to say, in the margin of things, when you have problems, you go to do Feldenkrais or you go to do Alexander technique. It's not like preventive so much.

Eva Klein: I see. It's like a cure. When something has happened, it's a bit like a cure. It's not going to be part of your rehearsal routine when it perhaps should. But circling back to what you were saying earlier about digital tools opening up new possibilities, performance, I dare say digital tools, digital content also maybe opens up possibility to share those techniques, those physiology technique, those self care techniques. Maybe musicians can actually be self taught and search online and find great drills and videos and such.

Luc Nijs: That is one thing of technology. Another thing of technology is that we have many sensors, let's say, now, that are available even commercially and easy to use. And so you can track muscle activity, for example. You have even these, like, EMOTIV, for example. It's a device to put on your head, and it tracks your brain waves. So many technological tools are coming more and more to the market that we could use much more than we do at this moment. But to me, like, the whole thing of technology and monitoring what you're doing, well, that's happening in sports a lot, not in music. While we're all athletes, it's not happening. But that is one thing. Another thing is, of course, these approaches, like Feldenkrais and so on that help you to gain more body awareness so you feel what you're doing. But another aspect, and for me, this is the most fundamental, that is that we look at how we teach, because there, I think things need to change. There are the real preventive strategies. I think if we start thinking about how maybe we can teach in a different way, how we can take the body into account when we teach not just for right posture, right playing technique and so on, but more looking at the body as a fundamental aspect of performance, not just for the fingering or the bowing, but, how we live music together with the instrument, actually, and that collaboration between musician, instrument music, that is really important.

Eva Klein: It's really moving, what you say just now, because a lot of the musicians we've been lucky to interview as part of the InTune podcast have actually said just that, how their bodies are part of their music instrument, and vice versa. There is actually a continuum between their physical selves and the instrument that they play.

Luc Nijs: Exactly. Yes, absolutely. And this is way important. And again, I have to say, sometimes neglected. I mean, we assume things and we think that, you know, practise for ten years, 10,000 hours, we know the research, saying that, and then you will get there, you know, and use the right postures, use the right gestures when you play, and you'll get there. It will be okay. Well, I would say no, we have to start from the very beginning to think about how to use the body, how to establish this relationship with the instrument. How can we really work on that? And not just in function of right playing techniques, but also in function of understanding the music, and how we integrate the collaboration between body and instrument in the musical aspects.

Hanna: We moved very much to the music part. And, of course, I'm here to discuss science as well. I just wanted to go back a little bit to what you mentioned about the wearable devices, because I know that you are actually in a project, funded by IAS, from the University of Luxembourg, where you are using wearable devices to measure the different stats of the musicians, let's say. What kind of things are you looking at and what's the aim of the project?

Luc Nijs: Okay, so the aim of the project is actually to understand the process of skill acquisition in a better way, let's say. So that's why we want to use quantitative research, not just asking musicians about how they feel, how they use attention and those things, but really look at the brain, look at muscle activity, look at how they move while they play, and trying to put all that together in relation to different skill levels. So we will actually look at different moments in time and try to make a kind of a profile of a beginner, an intermediate, an expert, and so on. And if we understand those moments in time, we can start thinking, okay, how do we go from one to another? So that would be a next project. So, in this project, we look at moments in time, five skill levels, and we will make a profile based on these quantitative measurements.

Hanna: You mentioned that musicians don't necessarily want to be treated like athletes. In a way, I mean, these are two separate worlds. So how does it work when you go to a musician and say, okay, now you measure your muscles?

Luc Nijs: Yes. Okay, well, first, I think musicians want to be considered as athletes. I just think they are not considered as athletes.

Hanna: Okay, I get it.

Luc Nijs: So this is an important nuance, I think, because musicians, they really, they know what it does to their body and how much effort they have to do. But people don't look at it in that way. You know, it's a kind of a leisure thing. It's a hobby. You know, but there is not so much money involved as in sports. So that makes a difference, too. So this is one thing, having musicians in the lab, let's say this is, quite a challenging, thing. We promised to have 200, so that's quite a challenge. I'm sure we'll manage. But musicians, too, want to understand what's going on. So most of the time, if you go to them and you explain your research, they want to be involved because they want to learn, too, about actually what is going on in my brain. And it's very interesting. And sometimes you just need some triggers. Like, for example, if they don't immediately see the use of looking at the brain activity, just tell them, like, hey, did you know that when jazz musicians play together, their brain waves start to synchronise? And so you can trigger interest in those aspects of science.

Hanna: You mentioned that you need 200 musicians. So if any musician is listening to us and wants to participate in the project, where should they contact you?

Luc Nijs: Well, they can always contact us, of course. I think I'm easy to find, at the university website, but we're looking specifically for clarinettists and violinists.

Eva Klein: Well, we have a few in store. I'll pass on the message.

Luc Nijs: I can imagine. We're looking for musicians with different skill levels. This is also important.

Hanna: When you look at your research, I would say there are quite a few different branches we just mentioned, you know, that project where you team up also with computer scientists...

Luc Nijs: ...and engineering.

Hanna: And engineering. So that's one thing. And we have the part of the physical preparation, that's another thing. But you also talk a lot about creativity as such, and you look at that. What does creativity mean in the context of music?

Eva Klein: I'm loving those questions.

Luc Nijs: It's a big question, and it's changing all the time. If we look at, let's say in the history, how people have looked at musical creativity. I mean, in the beginning, it was the thing of the geniuses, maybe even divine intervention and so on, and then it became like, really a thing of the individual. Creativity is an individual thing. So where we are now is that we look at it as a very collaborative thing. It's not something that's just you, it is you, evidently, but there's so much involved that we cannot say it's just me. Ideas come from many places. You integrate them, you talk to people, you play with people. So all these ideas they're somewhere in you, I think creativity is the fact that you're playful with all those ideas, and in the moment, you can do something with it on the spot, not premeditated, but really very spontaneously. You have access to all these ideas. And this is maybe another thing that in creativity is now so important. It is not a linear process that starts in the head with an idea, and then you just do it. No, it is really in the interaction with other people, with the environment, with yourself, evidently. And this more dynamic perspective on creativity is nowadays very, very important.

Eva Klein: I really resonate with what you just said, Luc. I think often when we think about creativity, we think about, like you said, the genius, the spark of inspiration, spontaneously, and then, wow, the artist starts creating or the musician starts playing, but actually creating, especially making music. In that sense, composing, improvising, takes a lot of work. It's really hard, rigorous work. It's a lot of studying, it's a lot of preparation. So in that context, I'm always wondering, to what extent is that left brain versus right brain binary still relevant? You know, on the one hand, you have the creative brain, on the other hand, the rational brain. It seems to me that both of them work together in tight collaboration, and that one can't be creative without being rational, and vice versa.

Luc Nijs: Yes, well, I have to say, first, I'm not a brain scientist, I'm not a neuroscientist, so I'm always careful talking about the brain. I don't believe in those myths, you know, left side, right side, and those things and creativity is not at some specific place in the brain. I think it's the same there in your brain. It's all about collaboration between the different parts of the brain as you need, you know, the frontal, parts. Maybe you need for decision making, being conscious about things. But maybe the limbic system is much more, you know, for your motivation and reward. And everything has to be kind... let's use the words: It's a symphony that is actually happening in your brain, and that is, I think, the most important. That you're not focused on one thing, but that you're free and open for everything that comes to you, that you can connect it to things you already know, but without being fixed on things, always having this openness. For me, this is maybe the essence of creativity, is that you have this openness to deal with things. And if you have that, the whole brain has to collaborate to work with it.

Eva Klein: Yes, that's entirely true. There's no, like one territory that's specifically dedicated to being creative, and then the rest is just a wasteland. And it's quite interesting to see that historically as well, many great musicians have also been great mathematicians or great scientists, had an appetite for music. I think that says a lot about, again, the collaboration between those two hemispheres, the creative side, the rational side.

Luc Nijs: And don't forget the love for nature, because, when we walk into nature, we have to process incoming information in a very different way than we always walk in the city, where everything is like straight blocks and very geometrical figures. When you're walking in nature, there is so much seemingly chaos, and you have to work with that. If I look at the plant here in the room and I see all the leaves and the branches, then your brain starts working in a different way. And still we have the tendency to say, okay, I see the branches, I see the leaves, I see green leaves. But there is so much more to it. And it's sometimes developing creativity is also to learn to see all those nuances and work on that. So it's also something you can learn, actually, and that's also a debate, but I think you can learn to be creative.

Eva Klein: That's very true. I think many classical composers specifically would agree with you that nature is, of course, a great teacher. Something one of our guests, shared one day, which I thought was really beautiful, he said, because I was asking him, can anyone play music? Can anyone become a musician? He's like, well, obviously it's difficult. Learning an instrument is difficult. Music theory is hard. Whilst maybe not everyone can be a musician, let alone a professional one. We can all, and we should all be listeners of music. Learning to listen to music first, maybe the first step towards becoming a creative music maker.

Luc Nijs: Well, I tend not to agree with what you're saying.

Eva Klein: Oh, tell me more.

Luc Nijs: I think making music is really an essential element of, let's say, humanity. And the more people who have access to making music, the better, I would say, because it has a lot of benefits. And we should not only think in terms of those benefits, like, making music is good for your brain. We, have the whole Mozart effect thing, which is also a myth. But, okay, you have... It's good for social context and pro social attitudes. It's good for this, it's good for that. No, making music is just a wonderful thing. And the more people have access to it, the better, I think. But, of course, we live, especially here in our Western European world, we live with this, I would say, sometimes limited view on what is music making. Immediately we go to these traditional instruments, and, yes, it's difficult to play the violin, and, yes, it's difficult to play the clarinet, but there is so much more. I mean, if we look at the room here, we can start making music. Yes, it's just the way we look at things. And, yes, probably you might not become a professional musician, as people have expectations about that. On the other hand, I know these intuitive musicians, and they would spend hours in this room making music and consider themselves professional musicians and perform by just touching, making noises, you know, on the microphone, on the chair. It's just the way you look at things, and that's part of creativity, and that you can also connect to technology, because we live in an exciting world where new technologies allow people to make music with those technologies without the need of having, let's say, these difficult, traditional instruments that need ten years of 10,000 hours of deliberate practice. So where are we? What is a professional musician? What is music making? I think we have to be very open about those aspects. And I would say that before I did research, and this is maybe interesting for this podcast on science, before I became a researcher, I was a traditional clarinettist, trained in the traditional way. A microphone, for me, was something that was hanging there in the orchestra to record the orchestra. It's not something that I played with. Now as a musician, I play with the microphone when I'm in my ensemble. It's a totally different concept, but it's science that brought me to all this. It's learning through science, doing experiments, reading a lot of literature, that opened my mind in such a way. I mean, this is an experience. I think it's a transformative experience. It's why I believe, and I guess we will talk about it later, that any bachelor, any training, any master in music teaching and music performance integrate much more science. It's not just something to capture things. It's also something to open up worlds, new worlds. It's fascinating.

Hanna: So I was just wondering, as you also look at music education and the science of music education, and then you say music making, well, anyone can do it. So where's the line between, okay, you have to study five years until you can make the music, or maybe you don't have to or... where would you draw it? Do we need the theory or we don't need the theory? Should we just experiment like that?

Luc Nijs: It depends what you want. I don't... I try to not to put it into boxes. I know fantastic musicians who cannot read music. My God, I know musicians who can read music but cannot play like this other one. So it's, it's all very nuanced. Of course if you want to dig deep and you want to understand and you want, for example, if you want to have the classical repertoire, yes, you need it, of course you need to understand the music. You need knowledge about harmony. It's better if you feel it, but if you have the knowledge, you can also think about the music in different ways and understanding. I can give a very concrete example. You know, as a clarinettists, we were used to study our part on the clarinet, you know, looking just at the clarinet score. And then at the end of the year, because of your exam, the accompanist comes to the classroom and you play together and then you learn to know the accompany. I went to Geneva to study with Thomas Friedli and I travelled 15 hours to go to Geneva to spend 2 hours of playing on my clarinet parts of the piano accompaniment. While he was playing on the piano the clarinet part. And in the beginning you were like, what's going on here? I travelled 15 hours, you know, to come here and I have to play the piano score. But he was so right. He made me understand the score in a much better way. Of course, he could have asked me to please analyse it as we do in a harmony class or a music analysis course. But it's so much more interesting to really dig into it and start playing parts of it. So he was very right. So it's all about how you approach things. And I do think that knowledge about theory can help a lot, about history can help a lot, but it's not the only thing.

Hanna: And then where does the creativity come into play with this?

Luc Nijs: Well, as I said before, we have this kind of container in us and there could be some theory in it, there can be some history in it, there can be playing together with others in it. And in the moment things come up, if you have the openness to connect to it, this is crucial, I think. But would somebody who knows all the theory be more creative? Would not be so sure about it. Like you would compose a piece and you were stuck into our harmony system, functional harmony of Western classical music, let's say. And, you would see quickly mistakes. Yes. The parallel quints, yes, you cannot use them or that note doesn't fit. But in jazz they would say, you know, if you hear that the note doesn't seem to fit in the chord, you just go to the next one and it fits. What can we say? I think creativity is just the way you are playful with everything, you know, and, you're not fixed on one thing but you try to use as much as possible.

Eva Klein: And in that sense, creativity really is accessible to anyone. Absolutely.

Luc Nijs: Of course. Also, we have to be careful with creativity. I mean, in the research, we have different views on creativity. Like we, you have the mini c, the, big c and so on, you know, and it's all different levels of creativity. I can be doing something in my room at home and I'm playing the clarinet and I did something, hey, I did never do that before, you know. And for me it's a creative thing, you know, then I might meet a jazz musician, I might say, like, hey, listen to what I did. And you might say, yeah, sure, yeah, it's common. So for him it would maybe not be creative. And then you need to grow and grow and grow. And then those people who are, you know, everybody looks as the geniuses. Yeah. They come with things that within the community it is seen as something novel and it's recognised as such. So there you have, you know, the big creativity. So you, you can look at things at very different levels. And the most important thing is the meaningfulness about it. Is it, for me, very meaningful? Well, by all means, let it be and continue to grow because if you would say, ah, ah, this is not creative, and then you see it as a failure and I'm not a creative person. Yes, you are. Just let it be and grow. I think this is very important also for music education. I remember with my kids in an experiment, I asked them to create their own song and make a drawing on it. Okay. And I was, I thought, my God, this is wonderful. They make this music, you know, six, seven year olds composing music, making a drawing, putting a title above their song and being proud of what they did, you know? And then I show these drawings to a colleague of mine who is a composer, teacher at the conservatoire. That's not composing. Wow. Come on. So again, it's very important, I think, and especially for education, to acknowledge what is going on in your students and see the value of the little Cs they have, and then help them grow. This is very important.

Eva Klein: I once witnessed something quite interesting at the Philharmonie. We have those, lunchtime music making workshops for adults with little to no experience of music or of a specific instrument. And they just arrive with bare hands, nothing. And they just start making music, as you said, with what they have, with their hands, with their feet, with whatever piece of furniture is around. And at the end of the hour here, they were actually having composed a blues song, and I couldn't believe it. But if you had asked any of those adults before, upon, entering the room, can you play music? They would have said no. And here they were an hour later. Actual composers.

Luc Nijs: Yes. It's always in the approach, how you approach things. Of course, we should not forget, and this is also important to say that very often when we look at creativity, and especially nowadays, we want less skills, you know, make it possible for everybody. But let's not forget the other side of the story, too, that, of course, if I talk about this container, and you have many possibilities on your instrument, whatever instrument it would be, might also be a computer. But the more skills you have, of course, the more possibilities you can do. I mean, I can play on my clarinet glissandos, like over two octaves. If I would not be able to do that, I would not be able to use it in a creative way. So let's not forget that other side. And probably also, for many listeners, this is important to see that we look at each component of things, or we have different perspectives, I think. And that to me, that's the way of a scientist. So that's where always science comes in. You might look at a specific thing, but you always need to see the bigger picture. This is really important. And you might not know everything of the bigger picture, but at least you have to take it into account and look at everything. That is, for me, really important.

Hanna: And the bigger picture is also looking at the movement, because what we were just discussing the inhibitions. I also look at my kids, and they are: one is nine, the other one is four. The nine will never dance in front of anyone anymore, because, of course, you got the inhibition already. I'm ridiculous moving. Whereas the four just goes for it. Wherever people looking, not looking. I'm just enjoying it. I'm moving. And this is also something that I think partly with creativity, we get it as children, and then we lose it as adults because, well, they will laugh at us. This is not within the rhythm or whatever else. Right. And you also look at movement yourself in your science, don't you?

Luc Nijs: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. It all started with myself as a musician, moving too much, according to most people, my teachers and so on.

Hanna: I also noticed your hand gestures.

Luc Nijs: Yeah. It was very physical. Yes. And everybody was saying, look, you move too much. But nobody could explain me why. I think that's why I became a scientist. I wanted to understand this movement aspect of performance. And so I started first learning. I did my philosophy thesis on why is it actually that a musician considers his or her instrument as part of themselves? What's underlying this very idea? And that's where actually, also I learned how important bodily freedom is. And this is where many things started for me. It was a theoretical thesis. Of course. I was at the same time teaching all the time, so I could work with it in my class, and I started using movement. So in a very intuitive way, but I had to go to a more deliberate way. So I started, studying the literature. What do people say about all this? Then the time came to go from intuitive to deliberate to very systematic. That's where science comes in. You have to understand the phenomenon in a very systematic way. You have to look at the parts, not forget the whole. But you have to look at the parts and start understanding this role of the body. Because what I learned in my philosophy thesis is that we can actually use movement to optimise this relationship with the instrument. While everybody says, don't move while you play your instrument. So why? Science actually gives quite good arguments not to stand still or just use the... how to say, the normal communicational aspects of, playing an instrument, we can do so much more. That's what triggered me to go into the movement aspect in instrumental music.

Eva Klein: And if I may, If I may jump on that, Luc, I completely agree with you. It's really amazing to see musicians fusing with their instruments, becoming one, moving together on the receiving end, on the audience. We have this standard tradition, practice in the Western world that you sit very still and you listen to music happening on stage. You don't move, you don't make any noise. You just sit very still. And I wonder to what extent we should actually challenge that. Because isn't movement our first response oftentimes to listening to music, tapping our feet? Oftentimes in the English language, we use the word, the verb 'I am moved' to talk about our emotions. So isn't movement our first response to music? And in that sense, should we maybe challenge the way we traditionally receive, experience music in the concert halls?

Luc Nijs: Yes, but I think one important thing is that, and that's thanks to science, that even if you are sitting and listening, you are moving. Actually, your, motor parts of the brain, when you listen to music are activated quite a lot. So that is the whole idea. That is, when we listen to music, we actually move to the music in some way unconsciously. Could be, and of course, when we dance, we do it consciously, but actually, we translate the stream of sounds that come to us. We make sense of it, it by coupling it to movement experiences, to the body. And this is what, in the last, let's say 20 years, 30 years, in science and in music, science and music performance research, music perception research has become so important. Understanding how we make sense of music through the body. This is why we do experiments on tapping, moving to the music. For example, we have seen that without people really knowing then that if there is more bass in the music, they start to move in bigger movements. Or when the harmony is more dense, they might, broaden the movement of their arms. So we see more and more how we react to music with our body movement. And of course, understanding that is one thing. Using that, for example, in education, is a second thing. That's where I come in. Let's say I want to understand on the fundamental level. Hence the Audacity project. But at the same time, it's very important for me, at least not everybody, or not every scientist wants to do that practical research. For me, it's essential. It, defines me, I think, as a scientist, because I have been in practice so much. I think more than 20 years of teaching the clarinet. It's a lot. You can't forget it. So practice is always there. And in making this connection between the fundamental sciences, like, for example, now in practice, we want to use AR, augmented reality. So we want to use visuals. We want to use movement. To have good AR, we need to understand how we react to those visuals. So one of my PhD students now is just working with videos, different types of visualisations. So more fundamental research and going to look how that affects the way we synchronise to the music. And if we know that, then we can start using that actually, in making visualisations and being very practical and trying to find out how in practice, in a real life classroom situation, how that would work. So it is a combination of both. That to me is essential.

Eva Klein: But I've learned something now. It's not all about the visible movements, but also the invisible movements that are really inside, in the brain, inside the body. And that's how maybe people who are in situations of extreme vulnerability, bedridden, living with disability, with paralysis, they can still be literally moved by music even though they might not be able to physically move their bodies.

Luc Nijs: Yes, but, you know, to some degree you can always move your body. Let's say when you have a severe physical disability, you might still be able to use your eyes. We have fantastic applications that allow these people to make music and not just listen, by just moving their eyes. So this is again, this story of the technology and how it enables people to become part of this music making community. Just by moving their eyes, just by moving one finger, you can make music. We just have to think on the what is music for us? How do we look at music? How do we look at music making? And to make it much more broader, accessible, sometimes I think we have to lose these fixed ideas on what it actually is without saying, oh, you know, all these traditional repertoires, we don't want it any longer. No, it's fantastic. Please give me Brahms, you know, and so on. It's fantastic.

Eva Klein: Especially for clarinettists.

Luc Nijs: Yes, but it's not the only thing. And sometimes because we think that's the thing we would like. And sorry to say, like, perhaps you just said, like, well, they can still listen. No, no, no. They can also make music. And that is wonderful. In UK, for example, there is really, really great work on how to make these different technologies. Like, for example, just moving your head helps you to make music. Applications are made that you can play a pop song, but on the other hand, you can also be very creative with the music. I was talking in Saint-Étienne in Lyon. It was a symposium on what they call accessible digital musical instruments. And while this is not really, let's say, my domain, although I deal a lot with educational technology, but not the technology stuff I do, let's say, is not for people with diverse abilities, so it's mainly going to the music schools and the privileged ones. It's a pity, but okay, it's like that. But anyhow, so we were talking there and we were seeing, my God, so many good things exist. But then again, if we look at those things, we need to think about what do we do with them? Again, it's approach, always approach. You can have wonderful things, but how do you use them? This is seminar, that is, I think, something where in the research, especially music education research, we need to investigate much more. It's what I would like to do here in Luxembourg, and again with a very, I would call it, integrative approach where we use quantification. I think this is really important. We just bought this wonderful system, twelve cameras, computer vision. You come in the room and it tracks you immediately. So we can look in a very different way than just with our eyes. But at the same time we have to use our eyes too, and the eyes of the experts, for example. So the combination of these quantitative approaches where we can find tiny little things that change in the behaviour that normally we wouldn't see with our naked eyes, we can track them and see how synchronisation, for example, changes, how they connect to each other, we can find patterns in the way students move together and how that goes to synchronisation entrainment and so on. So this is a very important approach to combine that with looking in the qualitative way, which is going on much more in music education research at the moment. One of the goals here is to go again to the quantitative approaches in the music education research. It's a challenge.

Hanna: So I'll be looking forward to know what happens next exactly in that. And we'll be checking out, when you publish something to see where it's leading us. But as you kind of circle back to the music education, I think it's a good moment to also go back to our pub quiz question and solve it and then we can discuss it a little bit more, of course. So, as usual, first request is to remind our listeners about the question and then give us the answer.

Luc Nijs: Yes. The question was, in Europe looking at music schools, how many students are enrolled actually in those music schools? And the answer is more than 6 million.

Eva Klein: Incredible. I could have never guessed.

Luc Nijs: Yes, it's a lot. So it's... Sometimes music education is regarded as a small part of education, something that if people talk about education, music education is very often, forgotten or not considered like real education, but actually it's a lot of people and then we are talking about formal education. But if we look at informal, my God, it's so much more. It's a huge amount of people who spend days in learning about music. It's wonderful, I think.

Hanna: And if you had a magic wand and could just now take all the music educators that are there, teaching all these 6 million people, and tell them, okay, now, you teach like that, what would you do?

Luc Nijs: Well, I believe in the teacher's autonomy, and I think this is very important but I would say, like, please start a process in which you reflect on your practice, in which you reflect on how your practice is actually determined by everything that you experience and how you are just very often continuing that and try to think of ways to open that. My way is using movement in instrumental music education. Somebody else's way could be like using film music, for example, much more than only Mozart or Brahms. So everybody can find ways. But I think it's very important that if we want to continue in the 21st century with music education, that we need to broaden our view on what it actually is to teach and learn music, because we cannot, despite the wonderful things that the traditional way of teaching has given us. I mean, you're affiliated to the Philharmonie, all those musicians. How wonderful. I mean, so many great musicians who came out of this traditional system, but at the same time, times are changing, and we have to change with time, and that means that we have to adapt, and we have to think about new ways to approach this. It might not be the same type of musicians, and please, let's keep that type of musicians, but we might also train or create or help support a whole new world of musicians and I think, yeah, I would ask them to do that.

Eva Klein: Looking at a bright future, are you confident about the future of music making?

Luc Nijs: Yes. Yes, actually I am. Not so confident that the music school system as is will continue, but again, that's part, of evolution, I think, it's necessary. Of course, I would like to keep also many parts of it, because, as I said, I value a lot many aspects of traditional music education, where you go to these very high levels to play the classical repertoire. Please, let's keep it. I just think it's necessary to broaden also here in Luxembourg, I think. I mean, I can give an example. I think it was one of the first meetings. We were discussing the entrance exam for our bachelor, and, I said, but what if somebody comes and says, I don't play the cello or the clarinet, I play the computer what will we do? Nobody ever thought about that, you see? So this is, if you want to think about the future of music education, I think, yes, we need to value tradition, but at the same time, be very open to new things and what's going on in the world, because a lot is happening, fantastic things.

Hanna: And as you mentioned, the Bachelor's, I think we can also say a little bit about that. So you are responsible for the course. What can people study there and what is there at the University of Luxembourg when it comes to music education?

Luc Nijs: Yes. Well, the idea is that you become a music teacher, and you can become a music teacher in three different branches. So the first is instrument. So you become an instrument teacher. Trumpet, clarinet, violin, and so on. The second is formation musicale. So, basically solfège. And, yes, this is a thing in Luxembourg. Outside of Luxembourg I think it's vanishing. In Luxembourg it is a thing. In the beginning, I was thinking like, my God, this is crazy. But the longer I'm here, the more I appreciate it. But if we make it broader, let's say, and then the third one is, éveil musical. So early childhood music education. And so the bachelor is a collaboration with the three conservatoires of Luxembourg. This is great. I mean, it's an opportunity. It's quite unique also, I think. So we have lots of challenges, and we have lots of opportunities, and I really hope that in the future, we will be able to have more students to begin with. So, please, if you know somebody, you know, we want to have at least 20 students every year. That would mean 60 students. That would be wonderful. We're not yet there, but I'm hopeful. I think, if we work on it, it will be okay.

Hanna: I think, on this positive note, it's just a great moment to finish our podcast today. Thank you so much, Luc, for coming and sharing so many different sides of music making and music education.

Luc Nijs: Thank you for the invitation. It was really a pleasure talking to both of you.

Hanna: And this is it for today. Don't forget to subscribe, to follow us, and in this case, us I mean, both SciLux and Intune, as well. I hope you enjoyed this collaboration that we had here. And, of course, don't forget to contact us if you have any suggestions for guests. And tell everyone about music education in Luxembourg and about the podcasts, thank you. My name is Hanna Siemaszko, and this was SciLux and InTune.