Rafael Pasquet is Director and CFO for Mercedes Benz Financial Services.
He's a people-orientated executive leader who has a passion for technology and talent. He has worked across three continents and has been rewarded for his work in multiple countries.
Rafael is known to be an authentic and value-driven leader who has successfully driven and implemented large organizational and digital business transformations across culture, people, processes, and systems.
To contact Richard Holmes please call 0403 513 720 or reach out on richardh@hprconsulting.com. https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardholmesfinancerecruiter/
Rafael Pasquet is Director and CFO for Mercedes Benz Financial Services.
He's a people-orientated executive leader who has a passion for technology and talent. He has worked across three continents and has been rewarded for his work in multiple countries.
Rafael is known to be an authentic and value-driven leader who has successfully driven and implemented large organizational and digital business transformations across culture, people, processes, and systems.
To contact Richard Holmes please call 0403 513 720 or reach out on richardh@hprconsulting.com. https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardholmesfinancerecruiter/
Please note that this has been transcribed by AI/Bots so there may be typos and the occasional strange things happening.
Richard Holmes
0:01
Welcome to the numbers people Podcast, where each week we're going to be speaking with some highly regarded senior finance professionals and create experts looking into the ins and outs of what makes finance people and their teams great. The podcast is proudly sponsored by HPR consulting a leading executive finance recruitment firm. I'm your host, Richard Holmes. In today's episode, I'm talking with Rafael Pasquet. Rafael is director and CFO for Mercedes Benz Financial Services. He's a people-orientated executive leader who has a passion for technology and talent. He has worked across three continents and has been rewarded for his work in multiple countries. He is known to be an authentic and value-driven leader who has successfully driven and implemented large organizational and digital business transformations across culture, people, processes, and systems. Rafael, great to see you again, how you doing today are very well, we just had a long weekend. So it could be worse. It's always good to four day weeks. It's great to have you on the podcast. I mean, Rafael, and I've just connected recently, and Rafael has been in Australia for four years, originally from Germany. And his career and journey so far is really quite fascinating and interesting. And I think he's a great guy and keen to have him on the podcast and here to tell your story and in passing, but insights and wisdom over to Rafael.
Rafael Pasquet
1:26
Yeah, thanks for Richard for having me. I was really looking forward to our conversation. Yeah, a bit about myself. As you can tell by the accent, I'm from Germany, I grew up there. And I had a bit of a unusual start into my career, because instead of going to the army, I served as a paramedic in Germany. And originally, I always wanted to become a doctor, I extended my paramedic service and stayed on there. But then for various reasons started to study economics. And that was kind of the start of today's career, or engineering uni, I had some touch points with Mercedes as an intern in South Africa and Singapore, and that fascinated early about the company and the brand, and also from Stuttgart, which is the hometown of Mercedes. So you could almost say a little Mercedes stars are in my blood, or in my DNA. Yeah, I joined it right after university in Germany, had some great roles in coorate and then moved over to financial services, worked as the executive assistant to our global CFO and got the whole wide world while working with him. And he then sent me after that to Singapore, where I lived and worked as a CFO for Southeast Asia. Also, what started as a hobby became almost half part of my job building a digital team within Mercedes. So we developed mobile apps. And then after that, I moved even further away from Germany, moving to Australia, back in 2017, which we now call home. I'm here now, I'm the CFO for Mercedes Benz financial services for Australia. And I also have New Zealand reporting to me. And I must really say, it's a fantastic place. And let me call our new home.
Richard Holmes
2:56
And we really love it here. And who would have thought you would have ended up on the other side of the world in Australia?
Rafael Pasquet
3:00
Yeah, never look, it's really funny how life sometimes develops, I think sometimes you have to be flexible and open for the unexpected. Honestly, I was just a bit more than two years in Singapore. And then there was the global conference, and we stood together at dinner and someone asked me, hey, Raph, how about Australia? And I was like, Okay, I'm not sure. When especially my mom would think about moving even further, but if it's my grandkids, but yeah, here we are.
Richard Holmes
3:24
And it's not a bad place to be. Is it? You mentioned about Singapore? I mean, we thought opportunity was that simply your boss kind of tapped me on the shoulder? Or did you always have aspirations to kind of work internationally,
Rafael Pasquet
3:33
I always wanted to work internationally. So already during university, I spent time as an intern in Singapore, and I loved the place, the culture and the opportunities and how dynamic and modern it is, it was always my dream to get back there. But obviously, it's not that easy. So sometimes you have to be at the right point of time. And I was just lucky that when my time as an executive assistant somehow reached it's three years maturity, which I would always recommend as a good time to move on. Really in last second, Singapore came up my back then boss played a bit with me to Russia, we have to throw in Singapore whom should be sent me because he absolutely was keen to go there. Yeah, but then ultimately, it worked out and there was fantastic over there.
Richard Holmes
4:12
It's very good company can afford you the opportunity as well and listening to you agree knowing a bit about you. What advice would you give to someone wanting to pursue a career like yours? You've obviously done extremely well in your career and works in multiple countries?
Rafael Pasquet
4:24
What advice would you give, it's important that you see as much as possible, early in your career, even at university, doing internships at different companies, different countries, different industries, if you have the chance, or if you decide to join a big group. I'm a big fan of training programs or graduate programs where in a short time you move around different departments. Yes, for me two big advantages. First of all, you figure out yourself, what do you like? What are you good at coming from university, at least for me, wasn't quite clear. And secondly, it helps you to build a network early. And I think a network is what you definitely need in your career to get forward but also to get advice. To have someone to ask if you have a question. And my biggest recommendation here is to not only focus the network on the company you're working on, but to look beyond look at having relations outside your company, with coaches, with consultants with universities, just keep your mind wide open. I think that's the one thing and then, yeah, sometimes we get this advice, just do what you like and work hard. And everything comes from alone I am, that's maybe the standard answer. But I'm not 100% of you, and that you need to plan a bit, you need to be able to tell a story about your career. So I'm a big fan of this thing. But you want to be in 510 years. And then one story would make sense to tell how you get there, and then plan a bit. That's how I came to Australia. But I think some planning in terms of what are building blocks that I need to grow to that role, what are the building blocks and add them to your CV that's important. And often, obviously, as a young person, you don't know which building blocks your needs. And that's when it comes back to network can ask people to listen to a podcast like this, where maybe they want to argue summarize, but what are the building blocks that target them, plan a bit, get connected with the right people and complete your puzzle?
Richard Holmes
6:05
I like the whole point about seeing as much as you can early on in your career. And I think you touched on earlier as well about the internships that you had. I think that's really good advice. And throughout the podcast, a lot of the guests have actually said, Don't specialize too early. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. But it's kind of good to have that broad outreach earlier in your career. And in knowing you for a little while rough, you come across a really happy guy. What's your favourite thing about your career?
Rafael Pasquet
6:27
It's definitely the diversity. I mean, as I said, I've worked as a paramedic for a few years. And while this is not always enjoyable, also sometimes hard, it definitely puts things into perspective. Today, there's this management buzzwords like Evernote saving lives here are stuff that gets also I really know what it is about. I'm saving lives. It's a complete different puose and a complete different level of impact on your decisions. That's something I like that I have experienced that because it helps me to stay calm. And to put things into perspective, I think, especially last year with COVID shooting, which was immense pressure for the whole leadership team and for the company. I think always taking perspective, always thinking we are not saving lives here. That's one thing. And then the The other thing about what I really like looking back is is really the international aspect manifested up I think I count in the internships as well, I think I've lived in six countries on five continents, and every culture, every country adds something to us person to you, as a leader, there's no right or wrong in the world. There's different views and different approaches to topics. That's the most enriching everywhere that you are, you take a piece with you and add it to your own spectrum of leadership. That's what I enjoyed most.
Richard Holmes
7:38
And I just figured I get make sure I'm a more rounded and grounded leader when you've worked in multiple countries and see how people react in different cultures with the company. You're working for Rafael. I mean, it's so obviously well-regarded, huge brand, what's the biggest area that you're curious about in why
Rafael Pasquet
7:53
definitely the topic of digitization, really excited to see how they grow to change the industry, we are embarking also to a direct sales model, where we go in more direct contact with the customer. All topic of electrification, electric cars, we have some fantastic new products out there. USB launched can be considered without any doubt the best car in the world at the moment. And I'm just excited to see how well they develop, how will that change? How will new competitors change the game? So really excited about how the mobility of the future will look like how will we move from A to B, what will be the means of transport who will be the player. So
Richard Holmes
8:27
definitely a very exciting time. It's kind of interesting, I fell within the space of a decade where possibly all going to be driving electric cars is going to be an interesting transition and then reflected back in your career. What's the one thing you wish you would have known at the start you correct?
Rafael Pasquet
8:41
I think I became a bit more balanced when it comes to family and job. I think especially in my early career, I was obviously benefited from it by making the Career Early but I'm a perfectionist a bit or used to be a perfectionist. And that has is Christ pushing yourself too much to the limit is good sometimes to show what you can do. But it's not sustainable going to the limit all the time. Looking back in my career, maybe sometimes over paste in terms of when it comes to caring about myself and my own resources. Especially for example, when I started my role in Singapore, my God, all of a sudden, in five countries, I was responsible for this digital team. But I also had a newborn girl at home, right? And so I'm really honest to myself, I had a bit of one priorities, especially in the first one or two years of her life, you can also succeed. And you can also be successful if you're not pushing all the time and not always trying harder, which makes it more successful. So I think getting a bit more relaxed and a bit more balanced. I'm even more successful, even a better leader than when I was really trying to push to the limits all the time. Yeah, to focus on that and make that a priority. I think that's what I would say to my younger self, especially when looking back at my time.
Richard Holmes
9:49
It's true, isn't it? Even over COVID times as well. When people have been involved in redundancies. It's just kind of shown you could be in the most secure job in the world. But then next week, you get made redundant. I love that. I mean that's the union replaceable in your family I, which is good. So, in terms of hurdles, I mean, you're touching your early career, what hurdles Did you personally facing? And how did you overcome them?
Rafael Pasquet
10:08
That's a difficult question for me because I am in general a forward-looking person. First of all, I'm always very well prepared, I'm very risk-averse, I'm always thinking about what could happen, and that makes me unprepared. So luckily, often when things go wrong, I have a plan B, generally, someone that is looking what you can do from here, I don't think you can act in the past. And you can also not act in the future, right? You can only act today in the present moment. And that's why it's really hard for me to recall her. That's one thing that was a bit of a challenge, was trying so keen in university to become a management consultant, that it almost became an obsession, and then I graduated with good grades, but then there was GFC, 2009, when I finished and, and obviously, most of these companies weren't hiring. So even though I was then invited to the one other Assessment Center, most of the other candidates, even at a PhD, I failed. At the end of the day, there was one of the best things that could happen to me, because it made me to apply for a job at Mercedes, which brought me to where I am now, I think it's sometimes the tough situations in life that make you stronger. Also, sometimes perspective does change. So as I get a bit older, I feel that on some topics that I saw black and white, when I was younger, I see now a bit more gray. So I think perspectives on life change. But in general, I'm really forward looking the question, What if something goes wrong? As always, how do you take it here? Don't worry too much this or why did it go wrong? What could I have to different and so on? None of that will change tack that it went wrong, can only move on and see what you make out of it
Richard Holmes
11:36
alone, roughly. I mean, the past is the past, isn't it? You can't change the past. What's the best advice you've ever received yourself?
Rafael Pasquet
11:41
The advisors, maybe more of a story and was already when I was very young, my day never had enough hours to do what I wanted to do. I'm so curious now response to the things. There was the lady that gave me that little story about professor that comes to us lecture with a big glass jar, pile of rocks back of small pebbles and the tube of sand. And so he starts filling the big rocks into the glass. And he asked the audience, is it full? And everybody said, yeah, of course it was for all the rocks. So next, he takes the pebbles and fills them into the spaces between the big rocks. He asked again, okay, it's the glass for the audience's Yeah, sure. mouthful, then he takes the sand, they'll sit up ask the same question again. And what I like this one video on LinkedIn, that is my favorite one. Then at the end of the movie, the professor takes a bottle of beer and put some liquid in and says okay, now what's really cool. And that story, when I think I was maybe 19, or 20 was when I got it since then it's something I heard a few times again over and over again. But it's so true, right? I mean, you have to put the rocks first in the geography life, and the things that matter to you. That's mainly in life. I think we, especially today with all these digital tools, and social and whatever, it's so easy to get carried away about your own priorities. And I think it's important to reflect over and over again, what other rocks in your life, what is what do you want to put first into your job, stick to that and reflect and that might change during your life. But it might be different topics, make sure that you don't put your stamp first because otherwise they're the rocks they're not fit in, and also the business life and you need to make it a bit more practical. I have a clear rule to myself that I start the day with what matters to me. And that means that in the morning, the first hour, I'm usually not spending like on priorities other people give to me by email, or whatever. But I usually I don't say I manage that every day. But I usually try to say, Okay, what is the one or two topics that matter for me today? And this is what I do first thing in the morning, no matter what someone else wants from you. That's the story. Yeah, I
Richard Holmes
13:38
think going back to your current role, how do you continue to learn in order to stay on top of your role? I can imagine, as you said, in terms of electrification of vehicles, and digitalization, I mean, you've got a lot going on. And your
Rafael Pasquet
13:51
most important thing is to stay humble. When you grow your career. That could be the trap that you think you know everything. And that's definitely wrong. So you have to stay humble and understand that you never learned enough and you'd never know everything. The way I do it is I really try to stay connected. Also, outside of our company, as I said, the topic of network to get insights also from outside the industry. I regularly work with a management coach to help me to reflect on myself. Look at my style of leadership. We have a lot of service in the company where you get feedback from your teams. I read it very carefully. And then obviously for learning, I usually try to make one big topic per year that I want to learn about the last year as anonymous finance director or I'm taking the Australian Institute of company directors course because why directorship has a lot of common things amongst the countries. Obviously, there's something special to every jurisdiction, did a lot of seminars around digital but I think the most important thing is staying humble. You're not an expert in everything and staying curious and then just ask show that you are that you want to learn
Richard Holmes
14:51
what's the biggest challenge you have with your specific role right now.
Rafael Pasquet
14:54
So we are currently I would really say and one of the biggest transformations ever for our company. As you know, Mercedes Benz produce cars and trucks. So heavy commercial vehicles. By the end of this year, we want to separate these two companies. Not many people know that Mercedes trucks is the biggest truck manufacturer in the world. And they are the biggest luxury car companies. So by separating these companies, there will be two standalone powerhouses, and also currently have to do this power Australian financial services company. So that's obviously a big change, testing with the teams today go left, they go right. At the same time for the Mercedes world, we're moving to a direct online sales world, which is also a new topic for us interacting directly online with the customer. meeting the expectations, people want to find their car 24. Seven, right, not just during business hours, we are planning a local, small move of our offers, and all of these topics that are pretty big after a year of COVID. So if I sum that up, that creates lots and lots of anxiety and the team honestly, also myself, but obviously, the higher you on hierarchy, the more access to the information you have. So you'll feel a bit more in control. But I think if you don't have all that excess of Nexus, unfortunately, comes with hierarchy that but if you don't have good access, it can create more and more anxiety. So what currently is my biggest task is caring about the people and their families. I think we as leaders cannot underestimate the impact we have on people's lives, it makes such a difference, such an essential difference Who's your boss, and how you work together with him or her. And what's the relationship, especially last year, during COVID, I've seen that we're our main focus was creating psychological safety for our company. I mean, we are one of the lucky ones. Fortunately, the automotive industry wasn't as heavily affected as other industries. And I can really, really feel for all of them that have been hit harder. But we also had our challenges. And obviously, at the beginning, no one knew that we were maybe on the more luckier side. So creating an environment for our people, just that we can keep them in the job that we will be there for them communicating that has such an impact, whether they come home as good partners, as good parents, as whatever, good friends with everything happening right now. What I'm worried most about is how do I make sure that no one in the team feels uninformed or anxious or unsafe? I really try to achieve that by being absolutely honest, and communicate transparent as much as I can.
Richard Holmes
17:22
All of that roughly mean, putting people first I mean, especially during these times where people are more anxious. I mean, if you focus on them and treat them well, they kind of give it back. later on. Rocco, you talked about you move to Singapore, in that digitization project, you were on there, what do you think the future of finance looks like? mean, it sounds like where you are, they're fairly advanced in terms of what do you think it's going to pan out?
Rafael Pasquet
17:43
Yeah, I mean, that's one of my favorite topics. Digital Analytics is the future Big Data data. In general, more and more decisions are based on data. And this data is somewhat the heritage of finance, right? What does the finance function do since 100 or 200 years, it aggregates data tries to find patterns and data. So with the involvement of digitization, it is clear that the finance role and the CFO as such becomes more and more central in the company. We are not longer only recorders or advisors, we are really often handling the tools, the data warehouses and the data analytics tools that are the key to a decision, especially in purely digital companies. Many, many decisions are made by algorithms, some of our credit decisions are made on algorithms. And yeah, as I said, finance is the go-to place for data. So it's natural that the role becomes more and more central and more and more relevant for steering. I think the person I talk most to these days it and sales, maybe in the past would have been different, but it shows how central you are to the company. One big challenge in that regard, obviously, is how to upskill yourself how to upskill the team, not everybody has a degree in data science, at least I don't have. There's also not only data analysts, right, so there's also classical hardcore finance, like tax and accounting. That's I think data and analytics, that's definitely the future.
Richard Holmes
18:59
I think it's that investment in that space as well. I mean, that's where it's going to be and, and storytelling in that hub and having that ability to use the data certainly where the future you worked in led huge teams in your organization. What was the perfect finance team look like?
Rafael Pasquet
19:13
Yeah, I mean, having worked in so many places, I think it's really diversity. And it's not as classical diversity of in gender diversity. For me, it's almost a given that sometimes we still have to talk about it, but in my team, I think we have almost 5050 diversity and in terms of nationalities and cultures. Last year, I think we made like alike, like a day where we counted a bit the nationalities I think alone in my team, it's 15 or more countries represented by diversities is much more than this obvious things, right? It's also having a good mix of introverts and extroverts. You need to have a good mix of analysts that really love diving into an excellent for six, eight hours on to a database, but you also need storytellers, people that translate the numbers and what you find out into stories, so so diversity is for me, key to a team and I think there are enough studies To prove that this is not just a soft wreck, but it's a heart attack, that more diversity means the higher the return. That being said, there's a few topics where I don't think that versity is good. That is when it comes to basic values and integrity. So that's what I tried to make sure that having diverse backgrounds that we share a common value set an understanding of integrity. And what I also expect from everyone is a willingness to be part of a High Performance Team. It's okay to have different priorities, and so on. But I wanted everybody ship's employer team, if needed. I really appreciate
Richard Holmes
20:31
their appointments. What about values and integrity? They're different, it's not going to work, is it? You're going to have those ethics integrity in the culture where you work, Rafael sounds like it's a really, really awesome place to work. What does culture mean to you? Yeah, I
Rafael Pasquet
20:43
mean, obviously, every big company has values they put into Poweoints into the wall, it only means something if you really live up to them. So for me explaining the value set, it's like, if you write down things like respect, integrity, everybody will say I sure that's important. But you need to have a discussion, you need to talk about it. What does it mean? in particular? What does it mean for your team? What does it mean for your understanding? integrity is, for example, one that I define is doing the right thing, even when nobody is watching. It's so easy to do something, obviously, you see, Well, anyway, get rewarded to get applause, total different thing to do it. Also, when nobody's watching, that's something I really want to happen. The team that's culture for me that that is shared, if I summed it all up, and that's the maybe the biggest topic in my leadership journey, or life in general, it's the topic of purpose. I think everybody on this planet, no matter what you do, no matter in a job, as a parent, or whatever, want to leave something behind. So you want to have a purpose. For me, it's important that the team as a whole, but also every individual understands what's their purpose, what's their contribution to the big picture? And what are we doing here and purpose Also, sometimes we putting things into perspective, it's not always the end of the world if your management presentation goes wrong? But still, you have to understand our purpose here is to deliver quality.
Richard Holmes
21:56
Okay, agree with all the points there and in having that purpose is key to having a good culture, isn't it? And if you could go back in time, Rafael, what is the one thing you would change?
Rafael Pasquet
22:06
Looking at the last weekend, maybe I would start golfing already as a teenager? Because maybe then I would not be such a terrible girl. No, but But seriously, I think it's really spending even more time with my kids, maybe not in terms of amount. But being more present when I'm with them more than once I spent one or two hours with my kids, but in reality, was thinking about something in business or check something on my phone. Looking back, that's something I would like to do even better,
Richard Holmes
22:34
then you touched on before I failed to try to be present. It's not worth worrying about the past or the future. Stay present. It's easier said than done, though, isn't it, trying to stay in the present, especially with the family as well trying to switch your phone off and focus on that time knowing your Rafale? I mean, you come across as a chilled-out calm collected individual, when you do feel overwhelmed and the pressures on what are you doing? What's your go to thing?
Rafael Pasquet
22:54
First of all, thanks for the feedback. It's nice that it looks like this from the outset. But like everyone else, I have my struggles. Now for me, it's easier said than done, right? By putting things into perspective, I think especially these days. Sometimes I worry about things that if I take my sister, for example, as a journalist, and doctor, having a conversation with her always helps me because she brings me back to reality and what luxury problems I sometimes there, everyone's different. And you can only look at topics from your own perspective. And everybody struggles in their own way. But still try to take a step back and see what other things happen currently in the world. I mean, we're living in Australia, one of the best places in the last 18 months to be when it comes to COVID. On top of that, I'm lucky I'm an industry that doing quite well, what write off having problems to have, there's so much going wrong in the world. But nonetheless, you forget about that. And then what I started doing quite a bit is doing meditations to different apps to meditate on my phone every once in a while I find the time to do it. Also, to be honest, I'm not doing it as often as I should. But whenever I do it, I never did it and regretted it.
Richard Holmes
24:00
What's improved your life the most your work in life the most
Rafael Pasquet
24:03
personal one or taking myself too serious. I mean, I made my career very young. Maybe if I'm honest, that went a bit to my head. In the beginning, maybe it was a bit too bold and a bit too, too massive in my demands, to try to lead too much pressure and power and stuff like that. So I think what has improved my working life or my leadership life the most is not taking myself too serious. Just being human, right? Don't be a machine be be vulnerable. Every one of us as two days has bad days. Don't put a show on. First of all, no one believes in that show. And secondly, you always play a role so that doesn't help yourself if you don't feel as a whole person that you are. So just be human. If I having a bad day I have no issue saying hey guys, I can't take anything today anymore. I know it's only three o'clock in the afternoon but my brain is fried. So let's talk about this tomorrow. Very human. If I want to spend time because my daughter is having a play At school or something, just be human. And all of that leads to just being authentic, right? The best leaders and the greatest leaders are those that you have a feeling you can talk to, without thinking about what you're saying, you can just be yourself.
Richard Holmes
25:12
It sounds like you're a lot more vulnerable. You're not taking yourself too seriously. And to finish off, Rafael, tell me something not many people know about you.
Rafael Pasquet
25:21
I mean, something weird. I'm not a big fan of chocolate, which no one ever can really say I'm addicted to Haribo gummy bears, but chocolate, it's really not my thing. I don't know why. But it's always a discussion. When I go out for dinner with my partner. And we talk about sharing a dessert. She always goes for chocolate cake. And what I said no, no, so that's me one thing. And then I actually like doing magic tricks. That's made me a bit the child in me. So especially now returning to little kids who don't get that easy to the trick, it's even more rewarding. So so I like that.
Richard Holmes
25:51
That's great. And then obviously, you're a very family-centric guy, and what makes you happy.
Rafael Pasquet
25:56
I think the most happy moments is when I achieve being present and the current moment, and it doesn't matter what it is. So obviously, with my kids, when I really forget the world around me, and I know whatever I do with them, I'm in the present, the same feeling as when I'm playing golf, and I feel I'm not thinking about anything else. I'm just here now in the moment, enjoy the nature I enjoyed or whatever. It's easier said than done. And it happens way too rarely. But that's the greatest moment
Richard Holmes
26:22
to be in the moment and be present. It's true, isn't it? If you have one message to tell the world Rafael, what would it be? Yeah,
Rafael Pasquet
26:29
I mean, many people would say the same. But I really mean it from the bottom of my heart, treat others like they want to be treated. And that's not just in the direct interaction with your friends, colleagues, families, it's maybe to the world as a whole. And I think especially in the current crisis, we are lucky to be in one of the most wealthy and most well-balanced places when it comes to COVID. At the moment, treating others like you want to be treated means also taking care of other places in the world means also doing your job, right. Want to be very clear and get vaccinated if you can. Let's treat others like you want to be treated. I'm in an industry that's not suffering that much, but others are so what I can do for them as my job also, Ben, it's not so easy.
Richard Holmes
27:09
Yeah. I love that Rafael. It's one of the things I want to live by as well treat others like you want to be treated and just Unfortunately, not many people do. Hey, Rafael, I think you've been a great guest. I think you've offered a lot of insight and wisdom and advice. I think it's been really interesting listening to your story. A real pleasure to have you on the podcast. I'm sure we'll have you on again in the future and have a great day and we'll catch up soon.