Anna Zharkova, mobile developer and Woman Techmakers Ambassador

Anna lives in Barnaul in Russia. She is a lead mobile developer for over 7 years. We met through a session for WWDC Community. She is an active conference speaker and got her first exposure to software development at a young age.

You can find more info on Anna on:

• Github
• Her website
• Twitter

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Transcript

Jeroen Leenarts: 0:45

Welcome to another special edition of my podcast. I'm sitting here with Anna sarcoma. And you're from Russia if I'm correct, but really far into the country. So can you tell us a little bit about where you're from?

Anna Zharkova: 0:59

Of course. Yes, as it was mentioned before, my name is Anna zharkova. I'm Russian mobile developer and I live in Borno. It is a city in Siberia in Altay cray. It's a middle of country, and it's more it's more near with to Kazakhstan than to other Russian places. So and I live here.

Jeroen Leenarts: 1:33

And I understood that there's quite a large German influence in the entire culture of the city. Is that correct?

Anna Zharkova: 1:41

Well, yes, it's really a lot of German people. It was Russian people. Yes, I am. Russian, German. Is it correctly to say about Yes, it's my ethnicity. It's really normal. So And nowadays, it's really a lot of different people or different nationalities, different ethnicities in at necess in Borno, and mostly Russia is not to orthodox shul country as its people used to think so. And it's really normal for multicultural women here.

Jeroen Leenarts: 2:24

Okay, so, um, let's talk a little bit more about about you and your backstory. So you're from Russia, you live in a bar now to pronounce that correctly? By No. By no. And I think it's a rather large city in the in the area there. But how old were you when you first got introduced to something resembling in computer?

Anna Zharkova: 2:51

Well, firstly, Bernal Yes, it's really a large city. And it's known for two interesting moments that are really connected with development. Firstly, it here is our State Technical University at this university is known for this developers student team. And it is one of the strongest developers team in whole world and there are several prizes, several once of World Cups for students. And also it is known for our state university with the strongest team of students limitations, who used to want first prizes in such competition just like mathematician competition or mathematician with Informatica competition, for example, in Israel and other countries. So yes, and so it is a really strong place to learn how to develop well. Well, speaking from about me, well, I can to learn computer science when I was young little girl, and I had a dream to become a real Russian hacker. Yes, I was fond of cyber security in those times. But it was just a dream. And when I was a student, I realized that software development is more interested for me. And but it was the end of my study. So I become mobile developer when I was 24 years old. Yes, for many people, it is too late to become a junior developer. But I think that it's really normal age because 24 It's not 100 Or maybe so and I was not too old lady, and I was not dead. So since Yes, since that time, I I began learn a lot of lots of things about mobile development. Firstly, I was an android mobile developer, because it's really easy to become an android mobile developer. It's not You need not so much special software or special computer to become an Android developer. And two years later, when I was a junior developer, I began as developer also. So and it's really, it was really interesting for me. And at that moment, I was, I had my first mobile developer job. And I mostly created a lot of Zoomarine cross platform software. But I also used to learn a lot of native Android development. And I realized that it's really good idea to become an iOS developer. Also, because Xamarin cross milah from software, it's really nice idea when you want to keep one common business logic. And you also can develop native specific project in Android and iOS, in a really resemble way that you used to do when you create native apps. So if I, so I understood that if I already can create Android software, it's really good idea to learn how to deal with a loss also. And it was really a really good idea. Because, see, at this moment, I think that I develop iOS software most. And I develop more iOS software than Android.

Jeroen Leenarts: 7:32

Okay. So and just to let like, get back to the beginning, because you mentioned that you were 24 years, 24 years old when you got started with mobile development. And as a young girl, you already had an interest in something related to computer technology. So that was like the hacking and the motor dream of your future. But when did you really get your hands on a computer? And it doesn't have to be anything professional? What was the first computer you got your hands on?

Anna Zharkova: 8:02

Oh, I think that it was a moment of destiny because I was about 13 years old. And I thought a lot. What career I would like to get in future and in what university should I enter after my school. And we, and my mother got me and we came through psychologist in specific professional orientation courses. It was a bunch of tests that I need to check out. And after that, I got a result that that to be a software developer is really suitable professional for me. And when we came home, my grandma phoned us and told that she had sent some money to keep a computer for me. Okay, and also one more detail. When my father came home this day, he found a small ledger, not from Hogwarts, but from computer courses for teenagers. And it was yes, it was a generic computer courses near my school, and yet, so I think it was really good and great day in August in 2003. Oh, no, you know that I'm really too old. of Rush Russian lady. Yes. And I was the team. And since that day, I become to learn a lot of things about computer technologies about computer science. And when I was 14 years old, so it was next year. It was also a developer's course, and I learned Pascal and it was really helpful for me and for my school, because I learned in Lyceum and in high school, it also was courses of Pascoe development. So when When I entered university, it was really helpful also, because I could begin from C++, and not from the early, early beginning of development,

Jeroen Leenarts: 10:59

you already knew some basics of software development that you have prior experience. It's really cool to hear that probably when you were a young girl, 13 years old, and you were confronted with the question, okay, what, what to do with my education, that sounds like your mom, and also your dad, and your grandmother really tried to help you and listen to you in the sense that it seems she has an interest in something, let's discover what capabilities she has. And if it's a match with what she thinks he wants to do. And if it's all lines up correctly, then let's support her and see where she'll end up. And I think that's the best thing you can do as a parent, for a young person. So you mentioned that you got started with Pascal through denature programming courses, and then that set you on the path to university in software development or computer science type education. And so it was from 13 years old, you could say that you were that set on getting through a program at a university that ended up in some sort of software development role, is that correct?

Anna Zharkova: 12:12

And no, I don't think so. Because even I had all opportunities to become super hacker or super software developer, since I was learning software development, since I was a teenager, I was not too good student, because I think I was too lazy because I was a child. And also, I had a lot of things to learn as a protein. For example, I had to prepare for my examination. And also one of the My hobbies and one my main deals when I was a school student was English, language and a lot of different works about social studies. And yes, I will, I learned in class where we got advanced English language learning. And there were also some scientific papers and TV competitions, about social status in English, and so on. And when I become a student, there also were a lot of different disciplines, different things to learn about history, social status, and so on. And also, it was a really different specialization. To learn cybersecurity and develop software development, there were only resemblance moments when it was early courses, but then you need to learn everything by yourself. So I think this is the same situation in all universities. And I realized what think I need to know, only when I was last courses. And I think that I began to learn software development in only what what way I need to learn when I was 22. So yes, from 13 to 22, it's really big gap. I think so though, I had basis of software development. And I realized that I need to know C sharp and Java. And it was really helpful for me. And in that moment, I also had information about Android development. And I wanted to begin from something that was really not so popular that moment, but maybe sort of exotic. So I found that under development is really suitable for this. Yes, it's really interesting mentality when you're so young, you think that everything that is crowded fundations not interested, but you want to learn something exotic, something really cool, awesome and special. So I found that Android development was such thing to learn from me. And I think that I was when I was 2224. I ended and I had all basis of junior developer. I had all bases in C Sharp, Java and Android development. And it was really helpful for me when I came to my first job. Well, and when I come to interview, at first, it was a position of quality. Specialist. Yes, of tester. And when I came here, and in my resume, it was just like, one small phrase that I knew Android development, and C sharp. As Junior. I received. I got the job of Android junior developer. Yes, it was really cool moment. For me, maybe it was one more moment of destiny. And since that moment, I learned a lot, a lot of mobile development, Zoomarine, Android developer development, iOS development, and so on, I've began to learn Swift, after Objective C, in 2015, and at first sight, it was something for myself, not for production. But when I had a knowledge of Objective C and Swift language as JR, I also received a project, it was our source project, when I could realize my knowledge of iOS developer. And, of course, I needed to learn a lot, a lot of things by myself after my work, but it was really helpful to me to become a middle developer, and to improve my knowledge of both Android and iOS development, and also to begin a native iOS developer. And I think it was really cool for me to begin, normally develop a lot, a lot of fire software, without any cross platform.

Jeroen Leenarts: 18:09

Okay, so you you went on a journey as a mobile developer, when you were 24? What year was that that you got started at your first job? I'm sorry, what year did you start working? After your studies? When When did you finish your education in the chess land on this QA position?

Anna Zharkova: 18:29

Yes, I was a junior developer, Zimmerit junior developer. And it was a small accompany, and by now, it's called Add to grants. Unfortunately, there is no such company at the moment. And yes. And in this company, I was at first Xamarin, Android developer. And then I began just Xamarin, both Android and iOS developer. And we made a lot of different stuff for our sources. And also we had several our own projects, different, for example, different. Software have different source. It was a lot, a lot of different kinds of software. And to also yes, it was out step and outsourcing. And when I was outsourced developer in 2016, I began working with my current companies, tech software,

Jeroen Leenarts: 19:43

and what year did you graduate from university?

Anna Zharkova: 19:47

2013.

Jeroen Leenarts: 19:48

You started with Xamarin. And then you you moved from Android to native iOS. And that's also where my excitement is with software development, because I've been doing iOS development for quite a few years. What are your thoughts on iOS as a platform to develop on compared to, for example, Android? or is it different? And what do you like? What don't you like? What are your preferences? And how is it for you to develop an iOS platform?

Anna Zharkova: 20:16

I think that it's moment. I hope that all my Android collects, will not curse me. Yes, I like both platforms. But for me, iOS is really more interesting than Android. Yes. When you develop both Android and iOS, there is a several moments when you do both. When you do more iOS development and several moments when You do more Android development. But I think that if I will take a look at all these five years of my iOS development in production, I don't see I don't speak about 2015 When I was just a student for iOS development. I think that I do iOS in overtime of his five years. I was doing it without any big poses. I cannot speak the same until the same about under development because there are several poses and and I noticed that when I have a big puzzle with enter development, there is also a big jump to next step with technologies for example. I also watch devil, the devil deceive for to know, different moments, different new things in iOS development, new features. And also, I tried to watch a Google IO to new about Android features. And well, last year, last moment, when I have a poser, it was a big jump with Jetpack technologies and Android. So I'm just picking about iOS. Yes, it's real perspectival. And from maybe it's several moments, it's more easy to learn, because there are not so much different devices and different guides to develop, to know to how to develop iOS software. And it's really a lot of different features, or different implementations in different. Interesting. Yes, different moments. And also, I'm fond of Swift UI since the beginning of this technology. It's really interesting perspective me, I had made several talks and articles about these technologies, and also their talks in conferences. And so what can I say about Android? Yes, it's real. Also interesting for me, for example, I realize there's there several resemble moments, especially when they're declared different books for both platforms, for example, Swift, UI, edge, pick, compose, have difference, resemble moments. It's not only a day sorts of fixes. But I think that she can pose have borrowed a several things from Swift UI, and also swift UI. World, several things from Android Jetpack, compose and maybe flutter. So maybe, I don't think that in future it will be only one platform, but I think that it will be resemble frameworks with resemble features, but for different platforms. So there's to be different, but with resemble things. So for me, both platforms are really interesting. And I think that only one negative moment in that it's lack of time and lack of my brain. Because I think when I will learn everything, in a really short time, I will get to really blow up of prey. And it's really too much interested things too, like a too little of time, because I have to do with my job with my work. And with all my work projects, because I think that I need money to for my wedding and and to get a life of leading mobile developer who can I have a hobby to learn different interesting things in free time.

Jeroen Leenarts: 25:54

Okay. Yeah. Because that's a lot of things that you share that that we can unpack on. So first off, you currently still do iOS and Android development, right? And how do you manage that? So to just keep up to date on both platforms to such level that you can still like get Get your way around the fragments or, or UI view on both platforms. How do you manage to do that?

Anna Zharkova: 26:26

Well, it's really hard to keep work life balance, and also hard to keep balance with learning and keeping update, both Android and iOS. And also I'm fond of Kotlin, multi platform, it's really interesting cross platform of SDK that lets you to make one common business logic written in Kotlin. And to deal with native iOS and Android, I like such kinds of cross platform because they helps you to keep update all your knowledge about both platforms. So it's really hard to find a time I had a plan on how to deal with all these platforms. For example, I had a plan to make several articles this month, and also I prepare several content for cover multiplatform. And also, now and also a moment, I had a project in my shop, where I have an opportunity to update and upgrade my knowledge as Android development. So also, I need to, I need to time not only for my work tasks, but to learn something new for this, for example, it's really good thing when you have as stage of refactoring in your working project. Because refactoring is a golden time, when you can put all your forces and all your time to also learn new things. For example, you have education, task, your work to searching and researching you thinks about technologies and to apply this technology in your working project in several models, sincero moments. And also when you have a plan to get something for several conferences, for example, I found a speaker public speaking, though, I think it's really good about unity, even, especially if you work remotely, and you speak with words with other people rarely, yes, it's really good, a good thing to tray, your mouth, and to train your brain with public speaking. So if you Yes, if you have an aim to make some public speaking, you need to prepare some topic. And also, in Russia, we prepare to make hard content in our conferences. Not only is simple guides, it's only for junior trick. And so yes, we are hard people in Russia, and we prefer hot content. So when you prepare such content, especially, you need to learn something new. For example, each was about me when I prepared. My first talks about Swift UI technology. Every moment, I realized that I wanted to make something about technology to technology. I had not knowledge, I have not knowledge about suture technology. And I think it's really good idea to try to keep simple samples. With new, some new features with topnotch, for example. I want I had a sample aware the simple swift application with MVP architecture that was written in just swift technology, classic iOS application. And I wanted to try to deal with Swift UI, does it not interested for me to make some cool animation on cool, beautiful screens. I wanted to make some really working application with all swift UI features. So I spent about two one week to adapt my working iOS classic application to Swift UI. And finally, I found several problems. That was really good things to make some talks for example, I found a problem with navigation. And also I developed it in, I developed a framework and I had a talk. And I presented it in last autumn. And also I had, I had material to create talk, how to adjust your working application to suit your technology. So and also, as final result, I had not only work in sample insert your technology, I knew situate technology. And see I think we have covered multi platform. Our development manager asked me last spring, to make an article how to make simple application in Kotlin multiplatform. So I also tried to adapt my working sample to a sample s MVP application in iOS to call the multiplatform ad I've as and I faced a big problem, how to deal with multi, multi threading and concurrency and concurrency when you develop your common business logic and common architecture. So, and as a result, I had an article, Eric is sample and knowledge, how to deal with multi threaded with concurrency. And also I had a talk for several metabox, how to deal with multi threading and concurrency in Kotlin. multi platform, especially when you work with us.

Jeroen Leenarts: 33:00

Yeah, so that's like you started on this journey, and then it might wound up become like, Let's do everything. So how do you fit all that content into a talk, because if you want to discuss the entire range of challenges you faced with this, this sample and this, this product or the sample code that you created, you wouldn't be able to fit it in an hour. So this must have ended up in several different talks at several different conferences, right? Because I've looked at your websites. And I've seen that you did quite a number of talks over the years 2020 and 2021. Already, and we're only halfway through the year. So is it? Is it okay to say that you are a prolific public speaker on development topics for mobile development?

Anna Zharkova: 33:59

Yes, I think I am a sort of such person. Yes, I really like to prepare for several events, I think it's really good idea when you are already a middle developer. And also, and especially when you're already a senior developer, or, of course, a lead mobile developer and not on the mobile developer, it's a really good thing to prepare some several talks. And to make public speaking. For example, when I prepare for several talks, I select one topic from my material that I think is really interesting and contains actual information. And it's maybe it's unique material, or maybe it's has some actual and unique details in it. And I prepare only the several moments about this not not whole material, because I think it could be splitted in several talks, for example, Swift UI could be splitted into topics about navigation topics about combined to expert, architecture and so on. And also common, briefly talk about how to adapt all this stuff to suit your framework. And so about other moments. So it's when I think it's it's really good time to to advise someone how to prepare talk. So if you have something special maybe it's a special information you're fond of, for example, you have a hobby to use to not something new to learn something you with your pet project, maybe you had already pet project that you're fond of. And this pet project contains consists of modern software development stack, for example. You've made it with a chip back compose or sit UI, or maybe you have implemented it with modern suit concurrency framework or maybe it's good flauta maybe you have solved several problems with your solution. And it's really good solution, not only Oh, well, in Russia, we have a nice idiom, when we, when it was pick about solving problems, but a lot in English, there is necessarily them. So it's in English, it sounds just like a good working solution. Yes, if you have good working solution. And it's really good to work in solution, not without several spaghetti code, you can present it in several talks and meetups. It can. So it could be not only superpremium conferences, for example, in Russia, we have Mobis. And apps cough as a samples of such conferences. And mumbles is also international conferences. We have different speakers from all over the world with this, and we also invite super experts here. But it could be also small meetups in your cities, or maybe online meetups nowadays, where you could where you could present short talk, and it's really good because of public speaking, I think public speaking is really important because it it helps you to learn better, to know better about your object and subject in what you are very good. Maybe it helps you to speak about your company as tech of working of your company. I know that several people making common talks about projects or their company, for example, in Russia, such companies as alpha bank sparebank. Nowadays, it's pure JetBrains, making talks about their projects about their production. Or not only individual talks. And also you can, you can know, you people, for example, it's really good to connect with other software developers because it helps. It helps to make your networking bigger. And also it's and also when you have begin networking with other people, it's also on you more opportunities for you for them to make new cool stuff together, or maybe a new cool stuff and events.

Jeroen Leenarts: 39:26

Okay. And that's actually very interesting what you mentioned there, because you do public speaking yourself. You must have gotten started with that in some fashion as well. So what do you recommend to people who are thinking about doing a talk for a conference? Where do they start? What's the best thing they can do first?

Anna Zharkova: 39:51

Well, I think that they should contain a list of other features. And for example, I think that they should make a list and plan of all this, their project for last two, or maybe three years, and all the technologies they had applied in this project, especially in their own code, and all the problems they had solved. For example, for me, for my first talk in mobile's conference, it was iOS backgrounding. Two I struggled with ISP granted in several my projects at all, and all the times when it was several hard task that was connected with iOS, but Granted it was my task. So when you are not template, you work with those tasks that your template also told you tell you to work with. So I implemented all iceberg grounded tasks in my projects. So it was my content. And I think I thought that I can use it to prepare at conferences. Of course, with all indeed deals that I only measured the specifics of this project, but not called them and not COVID named the customers. So you need to make a list of all your project of all technologist and all the problems you face your solved. And maybe if you had no such list, maybe it's just production and you solved only several not interesting for you to asks, you can make a list of technology that are really interesting for you to learn, for example, it could be swift UI as the backend poses. And you you could be begin from short talks in your local meetups. For example, in many cities, in Russia, in other countries, for example, in Ukraine and Belarus. In Europe, there are several local meetups in cities. Sometimes it is meetups of your local Google development group, and maybe is a local group. And you so I think it's really good idea to begin, from moment short talks in such mishaps with 15 or 20 minutes topics. It could be just simple topics about iOS development might be such thing. What do you think about the future for iOS development and modern tools? How can you apply them in your daily tasks and so on, and maybe some same themes about Android, maybe how to deal with flutter. Or maybe you have several pet project, and you could only make a short talk about your top your pet project, and maybe if they're experts in your city, or maybe send your Allah developer, they could help you to improve this topic in something big. In future, maybe they could advise you how to deal with this technologists in future to create something unique and interesting. Or maybe to add some interesting and unique details in your topic. If it is already something cool. I think many many developers have cool themes, quote, unquote, jobs, but they're too modest to speak public. Or maybe they think that they're not good in public speaking at all. I think they shouldn't afraid at all. And for example, also, it's really good opportunities such as woman to technical Techmakers. I am woman tech maker, Ambassador synthes here, and it's really good programs for everyone. And they also make several local online events where people could speak about their technology, their technologies and their themes. For example, we had several events in this prank, it was international woman day. And we presented first in our original Russia event, several talks. And also we presented several talks in international Europe woman day.

Jeroen Leenarts: 45:17

Okay. So just to recap a little bit. So you mentioned that if you want to get started with public speaking, it's best to just get started. Really just look at your own experience and pick something that that interests you, and try and find a local developer community or Meetup group that has an open floor for people who want to do a talk. I think that's very great advice. And you also have done a lot of public speaking yourself. And you're also aware that you just mentioned a Women Techmakers. Ambassador. So how did you get involved with women? Techmakers?

Anna Zharkova: 45:59

Well, I got involved with the help of our local community manager, Katherine chenko. She is a Community Manager in Google Russia, and she also leads different events different programs such as not only Woman Techmakers, but GTG and Google development group, and also Google development group for students. And now, they work with the creating new student group in different cities in Russia. And I think it's really cool. But Unity for every students, and if it is such a group in your city, and you are a student of technical or maybe taking University, or you're just fond of formatic of development, you need to try yourself and to connect with such croup in your city, and to begin with public speaking, or maybe improvement of your knowledge is of development because it helps you not only to get maybe a really good job in future, but to begin to become a really good software developer. Of course, becoming a good software developer, depends on person by by itself. But it also depends on help of different people and different initiated different programs.

Jeroen Leenarts: 47:43

Okay. So, um, yeah, I think it's great that you're like, are an ambassador of the program that's created by Google, it's always good to see that people are like, trying to do the things they can do themselves to just make the entire world a better place. And what better way to do that in something that you can have impact on. So we're almost approaching an hour that we've been recording. So I just want to do like a quick recap of like, pretty much everything that we talked about. So correct me if I make a mistake, Anna. So you got started with software development, when you were 13, in like, just out of pure curiosity and an interest. And then you did some basic programming in Pascal, through some T nature courses, then you went to university and you did your studies there. And you had a wide ranging range of interests. So it was a bit hard getting yourself through university. But in the end, you managed and you landed your first job at a company doing, if I'm correct, Android development and Xamarin development. And that basically allowed you to transition from Android to iOS as a platform to develop on because nowadays, you really like developing native iOS apps. And what's interesting is that your first position, you actually applied on a position that was more targeted at the QA role, but since you had something on your resume, that piqued my interest with the place you were being interviewed for, that actually started you on the road, being a software developer. Nowadays, you're like, elite, iOS developer within the company that you currently work at. And you are a Women Techmakers ambassador, and you like to do like tons and tons of presentations, because it just had a quick count. And just this year, you already did like 12345678 talks. And that's like more than one talk each month and listening to how you prepare for talk. That's quite an intensive ordeal for you to go through. Because one talk it's like a lot of work and a lot of preparation. But the end result is of course, that you are a great speaker to have on on the presentation. Because who doesn't like a speaker who is well prepared when giving a talk, before we wrap up the recording? What is the one piece of advice that you would like to give to anyone who's listening and and especially to people who are trying to get into the field of software development?

Anna Zharkova: 50:31

Well, I would like to mention firstly, that I'm not the only lead iOS developer, but both lead mobile development because I'm also Android developer. And I also would like to mention that I am also a tutor in ARM otters platform in iOS advanced course. And tutoring is a really good opportunity not only to share your knowledge but also to keep them updated. And also I would like to mention that one of the advices how to deal with a lot of different conferences is to take part in different online conference because online format, though, there is no offline atmosphere and offline sharing In the your emotions with other people, it's lack of emotions. But it also keep sharing with knowledges. And it's also keep your time because you can combine several events at moment I had a situation last year, when and two days, I had two different talks in different conferences. One was in Moscow, and another was in Minsk. So unreal life in offline life, I couldn't get from one place to another in such short time and to be able to speak, is to speak about my topics. So I would like to advise not to be afraid to to begin development in any age, when I was a student, and when I was a student, who get a crack of illusions to be super hot, or super specialist in computer cybersecurity, and, and I thought that I'm not good to be a software developer, because in this time, it was an idea that you need to be born to be software development, and you need to make a lot of software development. Since you're, the students are the first course. And if you haven't learned in university, you couldn't be a software development. But it was a mistake, because I began to learn everything by myself. And now, when I'm not too old, and I am fond of life, I'm fond of software development, and full of life. I'm sorry, I'm a little mobile development in really, in real big mobile development company. It's not only mobile company, but they just take software do different stuff, forever technologies, old stuff, outsourcing and stuffing. And also, I'm a developer in a big company, and alidium, Amal development, and I had all opportunities to improve my knowledge is I share with my knowledge is and I also like to advise. And I also to repeat, like to repeat that you shouldn't be afraid to begin mobile development or any kind, any sort of development. Maybe you could switch from about development to backhand development of to web development, and from this to my bio, and it's really normal for people to be leading developer in, for example, in web development stack and junior immobile. It's not to be, you shouldn't be afraid to be 30 or 40 years old, Junior in other technologies. And so it's really normal. Many people who were already seniors could jump from junior to middle or senior in short time. And also for, for everyone who wants to be a software development, and they have not too much opportunities. I think they should believe and should do different kinds of stuff. And if everyone, and maybe some experts tell you that your work is not too good, for example, I had a situation several weeks ago, when once pitch grade specialists in Android told me that my laboratory is not too good, because it's not using injection and generation and people should do everything manually. So my work, my library is not working, because it's not interesting for him. So you shouldn't be afraid of such experts. And you should go on with with your publications, public speakings and creating your own content. And it could be cool. It in depends only on you.

Jeroen Leenarts: 55:56

Okay, I think that's that's great advice, Ana. And I will make sure to link your profile and your other online content from the show notes of this recording so that people listening to this can actually find you online quite easily. And yeah, and thank you so much for your time and Thank you for finding enjoyable, the very enjoyable listening to you. And it was great to hear your perspective on software development and also getting started and things and persevering even though people are saying stupid stuff because they think they know better. Thank you so much for your time.

Anna Zharkova: 56:36

Thanks you too. Yes, I hope we will meet so one day in person activities.