Rudrank Ryam on his trip to Amsterdam and his talk at Do iOS

Rudrank and I talk about the things leading up to Do iOS, our failed attempt to get him to Amsterdam in 2022 and our second attempt this year.

We also talk a bit about conference organizing and some of the ways I am doing things.

Join me in Amsterdam for Do iOS 2025, tickets and details available now.

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Jeroen: 1:11

Hi. I'm sitting here on another special edition of my podcast with Rural Area four. He's a speaker of the IOC conference and he has a talk on a very interesting topic, and we're going to dig into that a little bit more. But first of all, it's so great that we have everything sorted now. FIS has plane tickets, hotel. The whole enchilada is now taken care of because compared to last year, we're in a much better place than we were back then because a little known secret probably some people might know. Last year Rudan was also set to climb on the stage of the IOC, but he was unable to due to some visa mishaps happening. So Rudan, I'm looking forward to meeting you in November. How are you doing today?

Rudrank: 1:56

So. Hi, everyone. I'm doing really great compared to last year, and last year was kind of an unfortunate year because I lost my passport and then I missed surf cleats and in Spain and then Dubai us in the end because I couldn't get a visa on time. But this year I was like, No, no, no. I will make sure that I will have the visa like three months beforehand and then have everything set up so that I'm a net person show that I will attend the conference this year.

Jeroen: 2:26

All right. Because it's due Irish, the only conference that you're attending this year. Or are there more things that you're going to.

Rudrank: 2:33

So I as of this year, I am just planning to have the Euros as the European Conference and next year I think I will not be. Let's see, like my plan for next year is to go to the conference that nearby. Like I was going to Singapore.

Jeroen: 2:49

Yeah. Yeah. Because on your socials, I did not set you well with the whole visa process. It does tend to provide you with some anxiety because I am, I'm European, I've got, I've

Rudrank: 3:02

Yeah,

Jeroen: 3:02

got,

Rudrank: 3:03

yeah,

Jeroen: 3:03

I'm applying for visas but just following you online and seeing all the other hoops that make you jump through and also some attendees coming to the conference, I get like emails, people asking, Hey, can you sent me a letter of invitation,

Rudrank: 3:16

yep,

Jeroen: 3:17

Can you, can you sent me this? Can you give me some address details of of the venue and some more details about a program that is officially watermarked by your paper. And I'm like, I don't have paper. So I just I just send them like a file with red a logo on it, and then they're very happy with it. And it actually works for them because they have to provide all these details and they have to make sure that that there is I don't know why, but it's just it's just hoops and hoops and hoops that people sometimes have to go through. So just be able to to attend a European or a U.S. conference if you're not from those parts of the world. And I do know that if you're live in India, you have a much easier time getting to Singapore and all the other Asian countries

Rudrank: 4:00

yep,

Jeroen: 4:00

for conferences. So I get where you're coming from, but I do hope that you will take the plunge every now and then and still consider coming to Europe every now and then. So because that that does increase the likelihood of people listening to these podcasts that are from Europe or do you all use that to actually run into you at some events at some point? Um, but anyways, uh, everything for this year is sorted, so

Rudrank: 4:29

yep,

Jeroen: 4:29

and it's, it's fun. You're travelling in over Finland and then have a domestic European flight from Finland to the Netherlands because the flight in your specific case applying for a visa in Finland was a little bit easier compared to doing it in the Netherlands to get a visa. I think it was

Rudrank: 4:47

yep.

Jeroen: 4:47

so

Rudrank: 4:47

And my plan is to like, explore Finland as well, like a little bit of Finland because I enjoy Finland every time I visit there I have some salmon and

Jeroen: 4:56

yeah.

Rudrank: 4:56

then my plan is to go to Berlin and then finally to Amsterdam.

Jeroen: 5:01

So. And are you like taking plane trips or is it also something that you take a train or what's the plan there?

Rudrank: 5:07

So my plan is to like take a flight to Berlin, and then from there I go to Amsterdam. My train.

Jeroen: 5:14

Yeah, Yeah, that's a very nice connection, actually, because

Rudrank: 5:16

Yep,

Jeroen: 5:17

there's

Rudrank: 5:17

yep.

Jeroen: 5:17

a direct line coming from Berlin to Amsterdam and it's passing by the city where I

Rudrank: 5:21

Okay,

Jeroen: 5:21

live. Actually, it's actually stops there as well, so that's amazing. So but if you are planning to, to sightsee Finland a little bit and make sure to get in touch with Amos, a colleague of mine, he lives in

Rudrank: 5:35

yep,

Jeroen: 5:35

Finland

Rudrank: 5:36

yep. I wanted

Jeroen: 5:36

and he

Rudrank: 5:37

to last lasting.

Jeroen: 5:37

Yeah, and he just hit him up on socials and probably he can show you around a little bit, but a lot of plans and part of that plan is doing a talk and do Iris And your talk. What is it going to be about?

Rudrank: 5:51

So my dog has this really different title, which is kind of an exaggeration because it is widgets, widgets everywhere, and not a pixel to spare, which is obviously a kind of exaggeration. But when widgets were released in 2020, I was really excited for them because having the widgets on the home screen for at that time, I thought that they would have interaction. But unfortunately we just had glanceable widgets, which kind of help you just monitor the data and not do anything. If you wanted to do anything you had to go through this awkward phase. When you click on something, then it opens the app and then performs the function.

Jeroen: 6:33

All

Rudrank: 6:34

But

Jeroen: 6:34

right.

Rudrank: 6:34

this year they meet finally, finally, Div went all the way to have interactive widgets so that all you need to do is just tap on a button or do a toggle on from your home screen itself, or even the lockscreen itself, which I was really looking forward to and I'm really happy about it. And now even your Mac in Marquis Sonoma, your desktop will have widgets so that you can just sprinkle the widgets everywhere on the screen. So with that in mind, I thought of this idea that now widgets, widgets are everywhere and not a pixel display.

Jeroen: 7:10

Now, that's that's a true case of like taking the idea of something that Apple has provided across the platforms and just taking it and taking it all the way through. Because if you look at the Apple examples that they show in their presentations, it's quite often they they'd make it look so simple. You have widgets, it works on this machine and it works on this device. And you could put it on your iPad and you could put it everywhere. It's magical and it's like, Yeah, okay, now we need to do all the coding to get this done right.

Rudrank: 7:41

Yep.

Jeroen: 7:41

But I do understand that if you've done a few widgets before, then you do find out there is a lot of reuse that you can apply across all these platforms. And if you do it right, that's pretty much you can almost use everything, reuse everything. And you have to do some tweaks that are platform specific or is it more involved, according to your experience?

Rudrank: 8:03

So from what I've experienced that if you're creating, you already have those. Was it good for you? Static and dynamic widgets that you had before, then you can kind of still use easily to use those views and have them on your iPad and your iOS makeovers and the new design on watchOS as well. But the biggest factor is that you, for the interactions you use, the app intents and those app and tents help you with the 3D shortcuts as well. Shortcuts and speaking to see or having them in the search. So having that good the using the interaction with the app intents for the widgets, having just writing the code for that also helps you have the same code to use for shortcuts, which is I think is marvelous and in a way that you do not have to worry about writing different codes for different functionalities.

Jeroen: 9:04

All right. And will you be, like giving a very much hands on talk that people can really take code samples from there? Or do you have like a linked GitHub repository that people can use or what's your what's your platform at 44 to talk?

Rudrank: 9:19

So my plan is to not do life coding. I'm sorry, I had very bad experiences with that and I'm still not at the level where I can be like Josh, who goes on the stage and does new calls fast, clean all the credentials, and then create using Fastlane. So when I reach that level, I will do some life coding. But for now my plan is to have a lot of code examples, visual examples. And one of the things I really want to do is that I'm working on a lot of widget examples myself for my own apps as well as I'm trying to pick a lot of indie apps that are out there in the Twitter community that I can find and I can showcase on how they have done it for their use cases so that the audience can learn from it and be inspired to have interactive widgets for their own apps or their companies apps.

Jeroen: 10:12

All right. So it sounds like some some interesting plans you have for your presentation on stage at Davos. And is this an original talk or have you delivered this talk before?

Rudrank: 10:22

So this is an original talk, this interactive which is was recently announced that WW DC 23 itself and I think I was watching one of the sessions of bringing widgets Life by Luca and I was really inspired by that and I was like, Yes, if I have to deliver talk this year, it will be about interactive widgets or I won't give any of the talk.

Jeroen: 10:46

All right. So that sounds good. So switching back to the conference

Rudrank: 10:52

Mm

Jeroen: 10:52

in general, because

Rudrank: 10:53

hmm.

Jeroen: 10:53

beyond being a speaker, you're also the rest of the time you're an attendee. Are there specific things that you are hoping for? Are things that you are expecting for duos? So what's your what's your outlook on that?

Rudrank: 11:06

So I one of the things I love about the iOS is that it is not a very large conference because from my past experience of going to conferences, which has like 300 or 400 attendees, I kind of feel lost and I get anxious like, where should I talk? Start talking to people. So even as a speaker, it's kind of difficult for me. It was difficult for me, but I feel like do I use feels like a small community where I can. I'm hoping that in the two days I'm at least able to talk to most of the people out there. And

Jeroen: 11:41

Yeah,

Rudrank: 11:41

that's my expectations from the conference. And there are many friends from Europe. I'm hoping that they come around by train, by flight somehow so that I can meet them.

Jeroen: 11:53

that well, first of all, that's I think a part of the DNA of our OS that we really want people to interact with each other and we really take our time for that because if you look at the schedule, it's not filled with people and names yet entirely, but it is the schedule that we will be running with. So there might be some small tweaks here and there. But in general, the the break times and the session lengths, that's all as it is intended to to happen on the day itself. So if you look at the schedule, you'll see that there's plenty of break time. But also with the venue that we picked, we have a big auditorium where everybody can watch the presentations. And then once the presentation is done, people, they flow out of this big room and it's it's just two double doors on the sides. People flow out and they're immediately then in the social area where we will have our breaks, we have a coffee, tea, our drinks in the evening. And on top of that, as part of the conference, if you're a ticket holder or a speaker, of course, then we also have at the end of the first day, we will have like a what I call a walking diner. So it's a it's a buffet

Rudrank: 13:05

Mm hmm.

Jeroen: 13:05

based diner. And it's it's like with all attendees, all speakers and everybody involved with tea with the conference. And it's all run by the staff of the venue. So everybody who has like a technical mindset relates to iOS development that is involved with the conference. They have like their hands free and they can just like interact with each other. And the best part of it is will be at the rooftop area of the of the

Rudrank: 13:32

Oh,

Jeroen: 13:32

venue.

Rudrank: 13:32

wow.

Jeroen: 13:32

That's right. So it's like a it's a glass enclosure and you should have really nice views on the on the city of Amsterdam because there's a there's a waterfront in front of the central station and we are and the museum is sort of like in this waterfront. So you can really see like some old buildings and really situate yourself geographically where you are in the city. So you can really probably most people can see their hotel from the roof there. And I'm really hoping that the setting and the way that the venue is set up, that it really, really supports the the level of interaction and also

Rudrank: 14:11

Mm

Jeroen: 14:11

the amount of value

Rudrank: 14:11

hmm.

Jeroen: 14:12

that people really will get from from attending this conference. And yeah, I'm just hoping that, uh, that everything works out as I have planned it out in my head. It's always like when it's, when it's game time, game day, it's like, Yeah, well, just okay, I planned everything. I instructed everybody. And now it's just a matter of letting things just flow and just catch where anything falls over as best as possible. So learning from previous editions, I have some backup plans in place. You know, for instance, a speaker might fly in

Rudrank: 14:49

Mm

Jeroen: 14:50

fall

Rudrank: 14:50

hmm.

Jeroen: 14:50

ill like when they arrived in the Netherlands or somebody for some personal life reason, they cannot make the trip. So all of a sudden you're like down one or two speakers. But in the entire schedule, I already have like a couple of people available that are on site that are able to do a talk at a moment's notice. And of course, it will not be a 100% perfect prepared talk, but they have a talk ready to go when needed. And also like like we did just last year, we had like one session that that was like scrapped and we did like, uh, just a sort of a pub quiz type thing that we, that we did there. And I've got like a, I've got an audio guy who was with us last year as well, who's very flexible and really can can he can basically do an audible with uh, with, with, with what we have to do during the event. So if it's like, okay, we need to make up somebody, okay, go talk to him. Go talk to Marco, get your mark, get back on stage and we'll just continue again. So and that's that's what we really are trying to do here, just to make sure that everything works as intended.

Rudrank: 16:00

I'm really excited about the place that you're choosing now. I'm, like, more eager to have the afterparty at the rooftop.

Jeroen: 16:09

Yeah, that's, that's correct. So what? All of those things in place and backups and everything and like, uh, people who are experienced from previous editions, I'm hoping that, uh, that things will run smoothly as far as a conference can run smoothly. Well, at least as long as the attendees feel that everything went went spotless, then I'm happy, because that's always a lot of stuff going on, uh, backstage and out of sight to make sure that everything keeps on running smoothly. And just to, to mention, uh, I am running the conference with the same team as last year. The sort of same people doing the entry of all people, but they are like part of the co cats and I help organize that. But due to the whole financial thing and that that works out better, I'm like fully, fully, financially responsible for the entire thing. But they did decide to, to help me out with like, uh, being my, my eyes and ears during the event and also some new people involved because I'm running two workshops the day before the conference. I can only be in one workshop, but I have somebody who is in the auto workshop. She's helping, you know, make sure that everything runs smoothly. And the benefit that she gets is that she basically gets to workshop for free and gets to be a part of the the organizing team on the day itself. So

Rudrank: 17:33

that's a win

Jeroen: 17:34

we'll

Rudrank: 17:34

win.

Jeroen: 17:34

get to meet all those people on the conference day itself. Um, so a lot of things planned for the conference. You already mentioned that you are planning to travel around in some parts of Europe a little bit. Um, so how long are you staying in Amsterdam?

Rudrank: 17:53

So I think my plan is to stay at least four days.

Jeroen: 17:57

Okay, so, and you stay in the Speaker Hotel for two nights,

Rudrank: 18:02

Yep.

Jeroen: 18:02

and then you switch to another hotel that is a little bit more in the middle of the city. Or is it like what, What hotel that you go on.

Rudrank: 18:10

I still haven't figured that out. I need

Jeroen: 18:12

Yeah,

Rudrank: 18:12

to do that.

Jeroen: 18:14

it is true. It is. If you're a speaker at the IOC, you might get spoiled a little bit with with the hotel. I'm putting people in but that's also because I want people that are in this hotel provided by me as a as an organizer that they are like within walking distance of the venue. So

Rudrank: 18:32

Mm.

Jeroen: 18:32

I put like this this Google Maps thing online a while back. That really was like me looking at the front of the hotel and then clicking through Google Maps with Streetview to get to the to the venue. And it it really is like a seven minute walk. And it's it's a Doubletree Hilton, uh, Central Station in Amsterdam. And they, uh, they really, really help me out here with like, uh, well, I'm, it's not cheap, but it's, they, they, they've made me a price that is a little bit better than what's quoted online, but, uh, not by a lot. It's still like they still need to make money as well, I guess. Uh, go figure. So for days, probably in Amsterdam. And then. And then once you're done in Europe and then you travel back to India again or what's the plan?

Rudrank: 19:22

I think after Amsterdam. Yes, I go back to India of my. I think my plan in December, like after November. I am not planning any trips in November.

Jeroen: 19:32

Hmm?

Rudrank: 19:32

Then in December I am planning to go to Japan and then I think I will just call it a year like this year has been a lot of travel for me.

Jeroen: 19:42

And Japan, Is that like, uh, a leisure trip or also a conference?

Rudrank: 19:45

No, no, no. It's a pleasure to.

Jeroen: 19:46

Oh, yeah. Okay. Because I do know that tri swift Japan is like, uh,

Rudrank: 19:51

In March.

Jeroen: 19:52

yeah. In March, they announced a few dates, and

Rudrank: 19:54

Yep.

Jeroen: 19:54

beyond that, they haven't shared much detail yet, but, well, we'll see how, uh, how that one develops, because they wanted to do it last year as well. But it didn't, I think because it

Rudrank: 20:05

Mm

Jeroen: 20:05

was a bit tense still for, uh, Japan with the whole Gulf thing. Uh,

Rudrank: 20:10

hmm.

Jeroen: 20:10

there because they had some more severe restrictions than the Netherlands. Um, but

Rudrank: 20:16

Yeah.

Jeroen: 20:17

uh, one important thing that did happen compared to the last time that you were trying to get to do, I was, uh, was that you? Um, you were then working at a company, and now

Rudrank: 20:28

Mm hmm.

Jeroen: 20:29

you are working on your own

Rudrank: 20:31

Yep.

Jeroen: 20:31

and I'm just

Rudrank: 20:31

So,

Jeroen: 20:31

curious to, to get an update on, on how that's been going for your house, that's been working for you. And is it what you expect or is it like a totally different. And so how's it working for you?

Rudrank: 20:42

so to just to give the audience more context, I was working as a developer relations engineer. I think I worked for almost two years. And then before WW, I decided to quit and go to Independent out being a writer and a developer with freelance gig to a part time freelance gig to pay the bills. And right now I'm in the hotel in a different city and I'm kind of having a staycation and enjoying and exploring India as well as different countries. And so far I am. I think this is the kind of the best life that I had always imagined. And I'm currently living it,

Jeroen: 21:23

Mm

Rudrank: 21:23

and

Jeroen: 21:24

hmm.

Rudrank: 21:24

I do not expect myself to go back to a 9 to 5 ever. But this is this whole journey. If I'm going to a day job to kind of being an independent, it's just a complete different mindset. And I am still adapting to it. And there are some points where I feel like I should kind of go back to the previous life, but then I am like, no, it's a it's kind of a restart where you just hit the reset button and you're like, okay, you need to figure out everything from scratch. Like if you want to do some part time freelance gig, that's okay. But there are cases when there's a delay in payment. So you need to make sure that you have your savings and everything as a good cushion for yourself if you want to

Jeroen: 22:11

Yeah.

Rudrank: 22:11

go and travel as well.

Jeroen: 22:13

So is it like what you refer to? Like, sometimes you are enticed to go back to a salaried job,

Rudrank: 22:22

Mm hmm.

Jeroen: 22:22

but is that because of the financial uncertainty or is there like a big difference in in income or what what is the main motivator when you are like tempted to actually be tempted about being employed again?

Rudrank: 22:37

I think it's more like I'm still young and I feel like having that cushion or like the security or the stable security in terms of having the salary credited every month. And then it was the end for me. So having not seeing anything on that is kind of and it's sometimes freelance money is much more that much more than that salary because I am paid hourly. So if I put in more hours, then it's more. And if I don't

Jeroen: 23:05

Yeah.

Rudrank: 23:05

put in, I if I put in this hour, then it's less. So it's kind of an imbalance in that terms. And I'm working on my ops and I'm working on that books, so I'm kind of juggling a lot of things that time. So I went from a 9 to 5 to kind of a 24 into seven. So it's different, but some times it just because you want you I'm kind of stretched out from the comfort zone. So when I say I want to go back to being salaried, it's like going back to the comfort zone when I'm just working, calling it a day wake up again work, and that's the life. But now every day is different. I have something different to work on. Like, like now. I was working on that whole new block of having all my music and articles there, and then I can have my book there as well. So this is something different. I

Jeroen: 23:59

So

Rudrank: 23:59

didn't

Jeroen: 24:00

and,

Rudrank: 24:00

plan it.

Jeroen: 24:00

and

Rudrank: 24:01

Yeah,

Jeroen: 24:01

is it true that the level of anxiety that you feel is sort of correlated to the amount that you have on your savings account? So when it gets less, the anxiety gets a bit better, a bit higher, and once the the savings go up again, so you have some more before your anxiety goes down a little bit, is that like a real relation between the two or what? What's it like.

Rudrank: 24:25

I think I will just call them inversely proportional. Yes. It's like when you see the numbers going down on your like if you had a good trip, like I went to Malaysia last month and that took a big hit on my bank balance. So when they saw the number going down, I was like, okay, I need

Jeroen: 24:42

Mm

Rudrank: 24:42

to put in more hours in

Jeroen: 24:44

hmm.

Rudrank: 24:44

this month and not travel as much as I want to

Jeroen: 24:47

Yeah.

Rudrank: 24:47

now. I'm planning to travel in September, the whole month of September, so I have to make sure that I'm bulk much more hard to this month. So it's like alternating between working hard and just enjoying myself. So it's very different from what I was used to before. But I am enjoying and enjoying this new life.

Jeroen: 25:07

All right. And if you then look at your, um, your attendance at a conference, right? By or not, it's a speaker or whether I'd say as an attendee, what's the value there for you? Because I know people often they go to a conference to either learn a few new things or meet new people to extend their network. Uh, what's the main motivator for you to, to attend those in-person events?

Rudrank: 25:34

So when I go to a conference, I have never thought of it as a way to network with people or having job opportunities because all the conference that I have attended before this was when I was salaried. So when I have to attend, do I always I think I will still go with the same mindset that I go and make new friends. Like

Jeroen: 25:54

Yeah,

Rudrank: 25:55

that's, that's the best part for me and I just enjoy that. So I don't I really transactional value attached to a conference. That's why I when I go to a conference, my plan is to plan the whole trip, a leisure trip around it as well.

Jeroen: 26:09

yeah, yeah. Because personally, what I noticed with going to a conference is that you don't know it at the time and you don't know how later, but at some point if you just, you know, you interact with people, you make connections and you just have a have a laugh at somebody. And of course, as a as an Irish developer at an IOC conference,

Rudrank: 26:30

MM

Jeroen: 26:30

I was developer conference, I should say, you have like common ground already. So it's much easier for every attendee there to find some common ground and to just start a conversation. But then afterwards and it could be like a week could be a month, could be even more than a year. At some points something happens. You

Rudrank: 26:49

Yeah.

Jeroen: 26:50

interact with somebody again and you can help each other out and you don't know ahead of time. But in some way the value

Rudrank: 26:56

Mm

Jeroen: 26:56

then

Rudrank: 26:57

hmm.

Jeroen: 26:57

does jump up and and bite you in the in the ankles. Really? And says, okay, okay. So this is part of the reason why I'm actually attending these events and in my case, even organizing these events, because it's it's really silly, but I feel they're some sort of and uh, a ranking of how people think about you if you get involved with a conference. Because if you're

Rudrank: 27:22

Mm hmm.

Jeroen: 27:22

if you're an attendee, you're just one of two people attending. If you're a speaker, it's like, Oh wow, you're a speaker at such and such conference. But

Rudrank: 27:29

Okay,

Jeroen: 27:29

if you're organizing, it's like, it's like, you must know everybody, right? It's like, uh, and no, I just just happened to know a few people and I don't know, I just ask people on the Internet to, to, to send in their, their talk ideas. And I just hope for the best, really. And of course, it does help if you've done it a few times before, because that does increase your reach. But it's really interesting to see from the other side as an organizer what the effects are on people when they come up, come up to you and talk to you, because sometimes people, they really come to you and they they they they treat you with some sort of a reverence, really. And it's like and I'm like, Come on, man. If you want to organize an event, it's simple. You need food, people, speakers and somewhere to put it. And then you have like an event for things. That's all you need. And they're like, Yeah, yeah, okay. But it's that simple. Yeah, of course there's some organizing involved, but it's not magic. Please don't treat me like some magician. I'm just a normal guy who just happens to have, for some reason rolled into this whole thing. And sometimes I have these days that I just look back and I think, like, how the heck did I ever end up organizing a conference? I must be crazy. But anyway, I just wanted to get that off my chest. I'm

Rudrank: 28:40

I, I still feel like organizing the conference is like being a magician. We,

Jeroen: 28:47

Oh, come on, man. You're just. You're just giving me compliments right now, just for the fun of it. Just

Rudrank: 28:51

like.

Jeroen: 28:51

to make me blush.

Rudrank: 28:52

I want to, like, organize. Akoko heads in my city, and I'm like, Oh, it's going to take a lot of my time.

Jeroen: 28:59

Mm hmm.

Rudrank: 29:00

So.

Jeroen: 29:00

Well, you should talk at the conference. You should talk to, um. Um, hold on. I it's like at the tip of my tongue. Uh, you should talk to Monica at the conference,

Rudrank: 29:21

Mm.

Jeroen: 29:21

because last year

Rudrank: 29:22

Oh,

Jeroen: 29:22

I do.

Rudrank: 29:22

yeah.

Jeroen: 29:22

I was. She talks about, uh, maybe starting a coca that's in Macedonia, and. And I had a conversation with her and with Philip. She was traveling with him, and, uh, since then, they basically got a few people together, and they organized coca. That's M.K., Which is in Macedonia, uh, based coca. That's group in Skopje. The I

Rudrank: 29:45

Hmm.

Jeroen: 29:45

think it's the capital of the country there, but you should definitely talk to her because she can like tell you firsthand how much effort it has been to to actually

Rudrank: 29:52

Mm

Jeroen: 29:53

start up a coca that's made up fresh. You know, just you have nothing, you know, a few people and then you start and she she can probably share some some nice insights on that as well. And uh, last I heard there, Coca that's doing really well in Macedonia and people are enjoying it and it's it's, it's great for the people involved. I think that basically Monica and a few people decided to just, uh, well, just to have a go at it and see where it ends because, uh, I think that's, that's, that's also part of it. Sometimes you just have to try something. But I do understand where it coming from with how much time does it actually take to organize

Rudrank: 30:29

hmm.

Jeroen: 30:29

a Coca meetup. And that's one of those things. It really helps if you, if you have a few people involved that that can share a lot of such a thing now. So definitely talk to her that that goes for everybody listening to that which is attending do I was definitely call talked to drunk but also talk to Monica and also talk to the other speakers that are still going to be at my podcast, but also talk to all the attendees and just get to know each other. Just ask each other what you're doing, what what's it for, what the background is and what they're passionate about. And you'll just discover that that, that things are often more simple than you initially thought. Uh, it just requires some, uh, some work and some good tips from people who have done it before. I really.

Rudrank: 31:18

And one thing I realized that when it comes to conferences, right? So I have already met Monica, and I was going to Singapore, and I remember she mentioned about Koko heads, but I couldn't ask her in detail. But now that I have already, I already know her. I can just talk to her more. During the I do Iris.

Jeroen: 31:36

Yeah, exactly. And, and that's, that's also funny because if you go to a few conferences over the years, it's not,

Rudrank: 31:43

Uh

Jeroen: 31:43

it's not that

Rudrank: 31:43

huh,

Jeroen: 31:43

like you're, you're meeting the same people over and over and over again, but it does have a tendency to like somebody you met like a year or two years ago, you will meet them again and you can just like, Hey, yeah, how have you been doing since such and such? Like, for instance, how have you been doing since Swiftly? It's last year. And, uh, that's, that's also, I think, part of the fun of going to conferences if you're able to and even if it's your local conference that you attend, like each year, it's a single conference you go to, people from around the world are traveling to these conferences. So you, you have an opportunity to interact with them as well. So even because going to a conference, especially if it's like out of your home country or it's even on a different continent, it's it's a big time investment and a big financial investment.

Rudrank: 32:30

uh

Jeroen: 32:30

And

Rudrank: 32:31

huh.

Jeroen: 32:31

it helps if you have an employer who's willing to to cover those costs for you. But if that's not possible, start looking for for countries that are like near you, maybe it's like a one 100 kilometer drive and you're at a conference already and that does decrease the upfront costs that you have to, uh, lay down to be able to attend one of these events.

Rudrank: 32:52

I think one point that you mentioned about the employer is very important. I want to give a shout out to Coach Magic, who I worked with before they sponsored my trip to. I was in Singapore and then we went on to Deep Dish Drift as well

Jeroen: 33:08

Uh huh,

Rudrank: 33:08

where I was a speaker. So I think having those conferences because as you mentioned, these conferences are a big financial investment. It's like a few thousand dollars that you have to invest for a few days of conferences and especially for I'm going from India to the US,

Jeroen: 33:24

Yeah.

Rudrank: 33:24

it's a lot. So having talking to your employer about if they can sponsor you, it's one of the better ways because I think a lot of startups and companies have some funds allocated for these specific events that

Jeroen: 33:37

Yeah,

Rudrank: 33:37

they can release. If you are willing to go to these conferences.

Jeroen: 33:43

yeah. Quite often there's like an item on your, on your job proposal

Rudrank: 33:47

Mm

Jeroen: 33:48

that you

Rudrank: 33:48

hmm.

Jeroen: 33:48

probably forgot

Rudrank: 33:49

Yeah.

Jeroen: 33:49

about, like because

Rudrank: 33:50

Uh huh.

Jeroen: 33:50

you're working there already for a year and that's like, uh, that's like learning and development budgets.

Rudrank: 33:55

Yep,

Jeroen: 33:55

And then there's

Rudrank: 33:55

yep.

Jeroen: 33:56

often, there's like an amount attached to that and you can just ask your manager ask, hey, this, this amount, is that also applicable to attending a conference? Because I don't know any fund trainings that, that allow me to like get through this budget. And I do want to use it because I want to develop myself because always and then you have

Rudrank: 34:16

That's

Jeroen: 34:16

to try

Rudrank: 34:16

another.

Jeroen: 34:16

and sell your manager on the benefit, of course, because that that always works better. But I do look for those kinds of things. And, and even if you're a, uh, if you're self-employed, it depends a little bit on the tax situation of the country that you're in. But

Rudrank: 34:29

Mm.

Jeroen: 34:29

quite often

Rudrank: 34:30

Yep,

Jeroen: 34:30

it is it is learning and development that you're doing. So some parts or maybe even the entire trip, if you take the leisure parts out, are actually tax deductible in your country

Rudrank: 34:40

yep.

Jeroen: 34:40

and that also saves you a lot on the, um, on the net result and effect that it will have on your bottom line as a, as a self-employed worker even because I know in the Netherlands that if you, uh, if you do one of these conferences as a, as an attendee, you can deduct those or you can, you can file

Rudrank: 35:00

Um.

Jeroen: 35:00

its costs on your business

Rudrank: 35:02

Mm

Jeroen: 35:02

and then you're not paying any income tax or

Rudrank: 35:05

hmm.

Jeroen: 35:06

other taxes on that. It's just deducted. And then it is as if that money hasn't as if it doesn't exist for the Dutch National Taxes Service. And that pretty much saves you like half of the cost. So if you have like a €2,000

Rudrank: 35:19

Mm.

Jeroen: 35:20

trip, you deducted as cost, of course, check with your accountant. You can just, uh, instead of like it's costing you 2000s, which it actually does because that's what you spend on it, but because it is before taxes, you're on the other end of the tax. It only makes a difference of €1,000 then. And that's, that's actually quite significant. And it's

Rudrank: 35:44

Yep.

Jeroen: 35:44

it's something

Rudrank: 35:44

You

Jeroen: 35:44

you

Rudrank: 35:44

can

Jeroen: 35:44

should use in your benefit. It should use to your benefit these these tax systems in the countries that you're in.

Rudrank: 35:51

and you can use that thousand dollars that you saved for the next conference.

Jeroen: 35:55

Exactly. Make it a little bit of a snowball. But um, anyways, um, is there anything that we forgot to talk about because I went on a few tangents, you went on a few, um, discussions on your own, but is there anything that we need to cover before we, uh, send you off and tell people where they can find you online?

Rudrank: 36:16

So I'm really excited about this talk because I've been playing a lot. But interactive widgets. I'm a person who loves music, so I really wanted my first interactive widget to be full of music. And I've already done that. I have, uh, created an app that helps you with the Discovery Station that Apple Music recently released, and then you can just have it as kind of a playlist instead of a station just from your homescreen itself. And one thing I really enjoyed working on is that the interactive widgets, apart from the interactive widgets, you also have the interactive live activities. So for me, what I wanted to do, like let's see if I love a song, I can just go to the live activity and click on the press button and it adds to my library. So having that kind of interaction that makes it much more convenient for me, like my day to day life because I had a lot of songs in a day. So these are some use cases that I want to explore more and how others are using, and these O others are going to use the live activities, the Lockscreen interactions. I want to explore more and I will make sure that I have really good curated examples in my slides for everyone to refer to when they get back home and are very excited to have interactions on the homescreen.

Jeroen: 37:40

All right, So people listening, if you want to learn about which it's everywhere and you want to learn about what the evolution of widgets was from iOS 14, which static and then to dynamic widgets and now interactive widgets definitely come join us at do. I was in Amsterdam because I think Rudy will tell you all about widgets and everything that you need to know to be able to utilize your widgets in your products and in your apps to the best way possible. And I do know that you has a lot of experience with these things. And this is just one of the talks that we are presenting at DO iOS. And I hope to see you in Amsterdam.