After seeing thousands of talented students, it takes a lot to impress Crimson Education CEO, Jamie Beaton, but even he admits that Ben Zhang is 'one of the highest achievers I've ever seen.'
Now at Harvard pursuing a degree in Molecular and Cellular Biology and Statistics, Ben is one of a handful of students to have won a medal at the International Biology Olympiad and the International Chemistry Olympiad - and that's just the start of his academic achievements!
Ben and Jamie talk about preparing for Olympiads, studying for exams and how Ben has maintained his passion for learning at Harvard.
**Download the Ultimate Resource Bank for Science Students with the favourite resources from Ben and other young scientists featured on the Top of the Class**
Ben was supported in his journey to Harvard by Crimson Education mentors and is now a tutor for Crimson students. Click here to request a free and private meeting with an Academic Advisor in your area.
Do you want to be part of the podcast or do you want to nominate someone to be interviewed? Contact the hosts at podcast@crimsoneducation.org or on Twitter.
After seeing thousands of talented students, it takes a lot to impress Crimson Education CEO, Jamie Beaton, but even he admits that Ben Zhang is 'one of the highest achievers I've ever seen.'
Now at Harvard pursuing a degree in Molecular and Cellular Biology and Statistics, Ben is one of a handful of students to have won a medal at the International Biology Olympiad and the International Chemistry Olympiad - and that's just the start of his academic achievements!
Ben and Jamie talk about preparing for Olympiads, studying for exams and how Ben has maintained his passion for learning at Harvard.
**Download the Ultimate Resource Bank for Science Students with the favourite resources from Ben and other young scientists featured on the Top of the Class**
Ben was supported in his journey to Harvard by Crimson Education mentors and is now a tutor for Crimson students. Click here to request a free and private meeting with an Academic Advisor in your area.
Do you want to be part of the podcast or do you want to nominate someone to be interviewed? Contact the hosts at podcast@crimsoneducation.org or on Twitter.
Jamie Beaton 00:00
Welcome, Ben.
Ben Zhang 00:11
Hey, Jamie.
Jamie Beaton 00:14
Now, Ben is a very humble guy. So to get us started to give you a sense of his really exciting achievements, he was a IBO, International Biology Olympiad gold medalist, an International Chemistry Olympiad bronze medalist, he came first across New Zealand in three A Levels, top of the country and chemistry physics, English Lit also scored top in the world and biology. Switching to NCAA, he was a premier scholar, not only in year 13, but actually also in year 12, which is very unique, and was top scholar in physics and chemistry, and is currently rocking it at Harvard, with an almost perfect GPA. So to kick things off for us, take us back to your childhood, your early upbringing, when did academics become a thing for you? And how did you kind of get the inclination, this could be something that you're pretty passionate about?
Ben Zhang 01:04
For me, academics really started kicking in I think, end of year 11, or like year 10 actually, I should say, because we did things one year ahead. So I was doing year 11 curriculum in yet 10 but it was really when I started doing the external exams, like IGCSE and Cambridge exams that I really was like, oh, I really got to like, study hard because these are like actual exams that really matter. Because before that point, I think the New Zealand education system does a really good job of like, sort of coddling kids into thinking like, Oh, you know, like, everything's fine. Like, we have these like school projects. To be honest, I wasn't really sure like, what exactly, we were learning at many points, especially in like Intermediate School and primary school. So my whole approach to school has really just been like very focused on like sports and other extracurricular activities and hanging with my friends. So it wasn't really until when there's this looming sense of these grades are going to matter that it really started to kick in and honestly, and like yeah, nine and even through yet 10. Like, I was, like, I would say, like, in the top quadrant of the class, but never really been too outstanding in terms of academics. Um, yeah.
Jamie Beaton 02:19
That's my best reading. Because often students that do so well, at the back half of high school go pretty hard, quite early on even an intermediate and things like math and English, they can build these kind of good foundations. So what do you think enabled you to just kind of switch it on when it came to gear? 11? Do you think you already had some pretty solid fundamentals? But you weren't really pushing as hard as you did later on? or How did you kind of just switch it on like that when it came to game time in year? 11?
Ben Zhang 02:44
Yeah, I really liked the thing you mentioned about fundamentals. And I think that's really, really important. So why whole experience has been so I life with my grandparents. And my grandmother has always been a very staunch advocate of like, education and getting me ahead in my schoolwork. And in fact, she would often whenever she goes back to China, she would buy textbooks like intermediate high school textbooks from China, and then bring them back and then to demand like math and chemistry and biology. In fact, she was a chemical engineer in China. And she had like a lot of experience, tutoring like relatives, and other family friends chemistry, so she was already very well versed in like pedagogy and has like a really good approach and teaching things intuitively. And I think that's really helped me like, not just like, starting in high school, it really started when I was like five, or six, starting with math and Chinese and then slowly progressing into the sciences. So building that foundation of having like, really good studying habits from a really early age, where I think most people if they had just studied at school would just be like, you know, like when I was doing at school, which is just like playing around for eight hours a day, and then not really thinking too deeply about school. So I think I had that foundation, it wasn't just it was just like not translated. And this will work because like I said, up until that point, there was like a disconnect between the material that I was learning from Chinese textbooks and what I was learning in class, which is focused on like, I don't know, like the social sciences. And even in math, it was like, very, very fundamental concepts and problem solving, like the sort of method style questions that you see, which is really different from like, formalized mathematics courses, in like, pre algebra, pre calc and straight into calculus. So yeah, so that disconnect, sort of converges in year 11. When we do igcc in Cambridge, this really this alignment between like the different international standards, and that's when you really, that's when I really realized, Oh, I already have really strong fundamental knowledge of what's going on in school already. And I think that's what really allowed propelled me ahead in that sense.
Jamie Beaton 04:49
Wonderful. I think it's really insightful. That's fascinating, actually. One thing I see amongst many high achieving students is the parents are heavily engaged from a young age. Interesting that it was your grandmother To me was my mother. But there's often that that trait among students that are pushing pretty hard. So in terms of motivation on a spectrum, from, you know, extrinsic thinking about getting into top colleges trying to win awards like dux to intrinsic, where you just love the subject innately. How did you find your motivation over the years? So what initially motivated you? And you know, in say Year 11? How did that evolve by year 13? Did it change much? Walk me through kind of how motivation existed for you?
Ben Zhang 05:28
Yeah, I think growing up, obviously, the motivation primarily came from like, just wanting to impress my grandparents and my parents and wanting to like, make my parents proud. That's sort of like the fundamental drive of many kids and young adults. And I think over the years that sort of progressed into like, like, sort of like a self challenge, self motivation, it wasn't really ever about the glory, or the recognition, it was always about pushing myself to see what I can achieve. And I think that's what I find the most satisfaction working in. Because like, after starting college, and Harvard, there's a lot of wonderful people I, I'm sure, you know, and I think the really toxic culture of comparing yourself with others, which is also prevalent in New Zealand high schools as well, it's really not the way that you should be approaching your learning, I think the way that you should be approaching your learning is one out of like self motivation and wanting to improve on your own and comparing yourself to how you achieve and your potential versus what other people are able to achieve, right? Because everyone is starting off at different points, it doesn't make sense for you to compare yourself against someone else that has been like getting the fundamentals and doing extra work at home, versus someone who might have just stumbled into an organic chemistry class like I see now. So currently, I'm actually a teaching fellow for Harvard's introduction to organic chemistry class. And it's really interesting, because from the teacher perspective, you can immediately see the kinds of kids that already have a really strong background of everything, versus the kids have never seen this topic before. And the improvements that they make versus the often sometimes the kids that already know the material actually slipped behind because they don't prioritize doing the problems as much. So I think it's really a matter of finding that intrinsic motivation. And that's the most important thing, even after school, right? Even going into the workplace, you're not going to be able to chase the next achievement or whatever. Once you start working.
Jamie Beaton 07:31
I think it's very well said to kind of give you a bit of challenge on that. In high school, ultimately, there is a degree of relative competition where a school like Harvard is going to look at, you know, all of the kids that are a particular year group, and they're going to look at who is thriving relative to the normals of med school. And they're going to think about things like class rank. So when you are the highest achieving student, and you're kind of setting your own pace, so to speak, you know, you're the best runner in the race, you're running ahead, you know that that narrative makes a lot of sense. And I think it makes sense generally, but for the students who say sitting in school, and they, you know, say, doing well academically, but they're not the top student, they're thinking about, you know, how they can balance academics and other activities. You think they should be looking at their classmates to get a sense of how hard they're pushing to help get a sense for in their own life? How they should allocate time academically? Or do you think you should just not look at other students around you, period? I guess pragmatically, where do you sit on that kind of spectrum?
Ben Zhang 08:33
Yeah, I think I think it's helpful to look at where you are relatively often, because that tells you like, where your strengths and weaknesses are, right? I think comparing yourself is a really good tool of self diagnostic. And you shouldn't really be beating yourself up over a particular area. That is, in fact, just not something that you're interested in that like school prioritizes, right. Like I think New Zealand, high schools really, really prioritize the natural sciences, which is really, really interesting. Because that prioritization, I guess to a certain extent, I'm not too sure. But speaking to friends in America, there is also this prioritization, natural sciences, but less so I would say there's more emphasis on like, digital technologies, for example, economics, entrepreneurship, possibly due to the larger economy as a whole, but also just a different perspective. And I think in high school people, like oh, like, we're gonna do chemistry and biology and physics. Whereas when you reach college, a lot of people will be studying like economics or applied math. And I think this shift really represents that really represents something where you should be learning the skills of how to learn as opposed to the content of what you're learning if that makes sense. I think I went off on a tangent there um.
Jamie Beaton 09:49
That makes a lot of sense makes a lot of sense. And building on that point you made about this kind of different cultural expectation and New Zealand part of the US. I think that's particularly true of computer science and AI find it very funny. So in New Zealand, computer science is seen as a bit of a, you know, easy subject, not many really motivated kids take that as an A level, a lot of the time. But yet I look at all of our Crimson alumni who are, you know, gone to schools like Stanford, Harvard, other great schools around the world. Many of them go to work in tech and Silicon Valley, other parts of the US they work in finance doing quant trading firms like Citadel de shore, and they use computer science as one of the most popular skills in their toolkit. So what do you think about computer science? in particular? Do you think that's like a sort of chronic gap in New Zealand? Do you think it's just fine, people can self study it later on? What's your attitude towards kind of computer science education in high school?
Ben Zhang 10:42
Yeah, I think it's, it's really representative of the wider economy, right? Like, if you study computer science in New Zealand, your job prospects are a lot poorer than if you study computer science in the US. Well, obviously, if you leave New Zealand, I guess your job prospects are great. It's just that parents, schools, teachers don't really see what's possible when you study computer science. And it hasn't really taken off in New Zealand to a certain extent, right. Like, if you have kids that are like a lot of my friends grew up in Silicon Valley, their parents are like execs. They're gonna know the importance of studying CS studying math, math is another thing. I think New Zealand does have like a pretty strong math education program with like mathematics. And that excitement, but I think that's sort of wears off in the later parts of high school. And math is sort of de emphasized. But I'm going to Harvard I'm really surprised like how important math is in a lot of different, really high paying in demand careers, which is really interesting. At one point I considered studying maths just really shows how important is as a skill, whereas in high school, the sort of sentiment at least I and a lot of my friends had and we ridiculed a math teacher four is like, when the hell am I going to use these skills? When when am I gonna like, differentiate something? Right? Like, when am I gonna do this like obscure math concept. And the truth that's it's actually relevant in a lot more real world applications than what kids are made to think. And I think that perspective of like, who's doing well in high school, versus who's doing well, later on, there's also a large disconnect, because the brightest kids in New Zealand tend to go into like medicine, law or engineering, which is like, I guess the same story as America in the 1950s. Those were seen as the traditional upper middle class professional careers. Whereas nowadays, there's a lot more emphasis on like, the professional substance, like consulting, banking, as well as tech. So I think it's a wider shift that hasn't really hit New Zealand yet. I mean, it's slowly is it's slowly especial, but not to the same extent.
Jamie Beaton 12:45
I can totally relate to that when I was going through school, I really loved math, it was something that I put a lot of time into. And I just never saw it as a career pathway. So when I was 14, I thought I was thinking of medicine, you know, almost for sure, with a New Zealand because, you know, engineering didn't seem as interesting compared to say, medicine for me. And it wasn't until I came across economics, and I set a link about careers in America, like on Wall Street, that I thought, wow, actually being quite good at math can really be a big advantage. And I think it's fair to say that that is probably the most critical skill for many of these modern economy jobs, whether it be finance, tech consulting elsewhere, even entrepreneurship. So I think you're very right in the need for those fundamentals. Do you think that everybody, regardless of kind of career pathway should be getting to a decent level of math, and what level do you think is acceptable? Yeah,
Ben Zhang 13:33
I think basically, like college introduction, like when referencing the Harvard curriculum, then it's like 21, a 21. b, which is introduction to multivariable. calculus, and introduction to linear algebra, I think those once you have those fundamentals, it's pretty, you're pretty set. But being really good at those as well as knowing some probability. What helps statistics I think statistics is incredibly powerful. And understanding the world that we live in, and as has so many applications in business, as well as many other careers like even medicine, right? Like if you have an innate intuition for statistics, then you can much better assess how well you're doing as a physician, or like how well treatments are going without falling prey to a lot of the probabilistic fallacies and mis assumptions that you get. If you absolutely know nothing about statistics.
Jamie Beaton 14:23
I think back to classes like step 110, at Harvard, with Professor Blitzstein, and basically the funny examples, he gives us, you know, these very smart doctors who make big mistakes and vaccine probabilities, or, you know, type one, type two errors and stuff. So I think it's really interesting that even people that have risen to the top of their field, even in law, for example, without a basic grasp of statistics can really interpret a lot of evidence quite incorrectly. And so I think it's a very apt recommendation for people to learn statistics. So I guess we've kind of jumped into this and we talked a lot about you know, Harvard already and you know, this Halfway and some of the difference between New Zealand and America, but I guess the question exists, you know, when did you set your sights on going to America? What was the trigger that made you realize this was the pathway for you? And at what age did it become the goal?
Ben Zhang 15:14
I think, um, for me, it really crystallized my desire to go to America after doing the international chemistry Olympiad. And yet well, I think that was a really formative experience in several ways. The first of which is I got to meet so many different people from around the world, with so many different experiences and thoughts and insights that I just didn't get back home in New Zealand with my friends, like I love my friends back home, but it's just really different. And I think I wanted to be in an environment where I'm constantly challenged by other people's experiences. And I'm constantly learning new things and being made a little bit uncomfortable, because I think I am someone who don't really like change, but I really do thrive in a changing environment. So I think it's just this desire to put myself in a place where I'm going to grow a lot as a person. And I think I grew a lot. As a person, I also think everyone should move away if they could, and they have the means to for university or college. Because you really do learn a lot about growing up and living on your own and forming friendships and relationships with people and a adult way that's removed from like the sort of friendships that you've had in high school. So there was that. And then second of all, OSHA, seeing the caliber of students from around the world and seeing what's possible, as well as hearing about the students in America about the experiences that that they've had doing research, working with world class professors, and research institutions on some of the coolest science projects in the world has just been enlightening.
Jamie Beaton 16:58
I think this idea of being exposed to the world stage, and what it means for your ambition is so crucial. I think, there are many people around the world who just simply don't know people in these environments, and so don't know how just how high they can aim. So, for example, as recently, you know, you've also been working on this as well, we've been trying to build this Crimson Global Academy. And one of the foundational principles here is that, you know, if you're in a school that's totally global, I think this consumer in 20 countries now, early on in your life, you're going to be exposed to ambitions from many different countries, you're going to hear about all kinds of different career ambitions, and you're not going to think about your home country as your kind of opportunity set. So I think the earlier we can sort of systematize, you know, the act of say, a 13 year old to meeting smart minds for America, or China or Russia or other countries, the better for that ambition. And I think it's also really good for cultural understanding as well, you know, I think it's hard to imagine huge amounts of racism would exist in a world in which very young age, you're exposed to people from all different, you know, ethnic backgrounds, and you grew up with these people. And I think that's very radically different to the world of, say, our parents or our grandparents, who typically, you know, grew up in one country lived in that country, there's a lot of homogenous communities around them, etc. So I think the sort of magic of these high achieving global competitions is that they often do elevate ambition, in quite a big way. So I guess, let's look deeper into the Ico, you know, you didn't just participate in the Ico, you know, you got onto the international stage, you know, winning a bronze medal, which is, you know, very difficult to achieve. And you did it from New Zealand as well. So, how did you train for the Ico? You know, what were the tactics you used? How much time did it take kind of walk me through what it actually takes to get a medal on one of these Olympiad competitions?
Ben Zhang 18:39
Yeah, that's, that's a great question. And it's, it's really a long process. Well, usually students start I would say, in year 12, because that first entrance exam in the September before the competition, the following year is going to be on Yeah, 12 material. So because I was a class, doing the accelerant program, I was one year ahead. So I actually did it in year 11, because I had already done the material already. So there's a first round exam in September, and then you get selected for the training group. And over a summer break, like December, January, they'll send you like, a booklet with extra problems, extra theory for you to study on your own. I think now, they also have a more formalized training program with like problems online on like education, perfect for you to walk through yourself just to keep yourself accountable. So you do that. And then in March, you're going to have well, February or March, you're going to have a camp selection exam. And in that exam, that's basically administered at school and you do it and that's testing both the material that you would have learned in school unlike yet 12 chemistry, as well as this new material, that's often just Yes, chain chemistry that they've sent you as well as any other relevant concepts. And then after that, Around a group of 20, people will be like the national finalists, and you'll attend a residential training camp, often over Easter break. So in April, they'll bring you to Auckland, you'll love in one of the partner schools that they've got set up for about, I would say, like five days, five, six days. And then each day is structured like lectures in the morning labs in the afternoon, you'll learn a lot of the lab techniques to make equitable. If you haven't seen a lot of the lab techniques at school, they'll teach you all the lab techniques. And then the final two days, you'll have a four hour practical examination. And then the following day, you'll have like a theory examination. And out of those, the top four students will be selected to represent New Zealand at the international competition. And I guess, July, and from there, your travel to all of the wonderful countries that are hosting this competition. So in my year was held in Georgia, which was an amazing experience. And then in the actual international Olympiad itself, you also sort of have the first few days of just settling in they have a lot of social events, so you know, mingle with the other competitors from different countries, you're encouraged to like, exchange gifts, and tell stories about where you're from. There's also a lot of traveling and a lot of excursions to like the local side. So you do get to see a lot of the city and a lot of the country itself, because Georgia is not a big country, you can essentially drive everywhere. So we got to see a lot of the old churches from like the early turn of the millennium. And that was really fascinating and fun. And then finally, you'll have a full day, essentially, six hours of theory, and then the practical examination, which is like doing lab experiments. And then the following day, you'll have like eight hours of very examination. So it's a really grueling process, if you think about it, but I'm definitely really worthwhile. A lot of it has to do with intrinsic motivation, that's the thing that we keep coming back to, because this is something that's like, you're not going to get a grade for, right. It's not something that you're doing in school, where you're doing it with a lot of other friends. So you might have friends that are also studying for the same exam. So I was fortunate enough to have a friend in my class who also made the New Zealand team. So we were sort of studying together the whole time. But other than that, it's really a very isolating process, you do a lot of really, really difficult chemistry questions like chemistry problems that as me as a third year in university, I still haven't like studied the full range in university. Yeah, so it's really like a bringing you up to speed in the world of chemistry. And you're sort of expected to learn that really quickly. And a lot of the times, the teachers and mentors don't even know the problems, and you sort of have to go online and try and find the necessary resources, often in Russian about how to solve these particular chemistry problem. It's a really fun experience in that sense of that you're learning a lot independently. But with that also comes the need for you to be really self motivated and really wanting to do well. And this, I would say the preparation itself, it's like, you just have to chip away at it, it's not something that you could study the night before, there's just way too much material. And it's just really, really difficult. And there's a lot of critical thinking involved. Oftentimes, it's you'll get the theory, and then they'll figure some really convoluted spin on it, that will be impossible to do unless you just know the inside out of the theory and apply it.
Jamie Beaton 23:21
And I guess one thing that jumps out to me is if you think about, you know, people that compete at, say, the Olympics, board, they often begin these sports very edge trainer for a very long time. And they go and compete. You know, in this case, you described how you kind of hopped into this, you know, incredibly competitive initiative, basically in year 12. And so my question for you is, if you were to go back and you know, you were to train somebody whose goal was sit on, you know, an ICL, gold medal or something, do you recommend they start many years younger? Do you think they should be gone through this process, when they're like 1314, they've got many more years to mask the content, because it just seems like an incredible rush to get through all these complicated concepts to be not only learning new content, but also trying to apply it to these difficult theoretical problems. So do you think that you know that that would be kind of how you would you know, optimally prepare?
Ben Zhang 24:08
I have some thoughts on this, because I think this is what math does, at least in New Zealand, and also overseas. So in the math Olympiad, you often have a kid come in, who's really good at math, who had really, really brilliant math preparation, and Intermediate School and start up high school. And because the international math Olympiad never covers calculus, it's always precalculus and number theory, set theory etc. You have these Yeah, nine kids that basically can come in and represent New Zealand at the math Olympiad. And I think that's good and well, and that's usually the case because math is such a difficult when you get to the theoretical levels of it, it's like very difficult to grasp, unless you just have some sort of intuition that's either brought up at a really young age, or you just study the heck out of it. I think with chemistry, it's a little bit different and that the concepts of there and there's a lot of rules and that's just being able to under Stand the fundamental concepts in a way, that's really well, and oftentimes kids don't start learning chemistry until yet. 10 1112. Anyway, so that's the barrier there. I think if you started learning chemistry early at my help, but the thing is that it also requires just general science intuition, right? It's not like math intuition, which sort of is like, abstract and doesn't build on itself, chemistry, intuition sort of builds on your understanding of the natural sciences sort of builds on physics, and a lot of math as well. So you're going to need that math. So a lot of the chemistry problems that we do in the end ends up being math problems, while just like more simple math problems. So having that foundation is also really important. And I think, because of the, the cumulative nature of it, it's going to be harder to do at a super early age. But I do think that if you prepare well for it, it's really important. It's also about like, knowing the right resources, because we officially get preparation from like New Zealand chemistry, Olympiad trust, but the materials that we get as often like, not as complete or not as comprehensive as kids in other countries get all like, they just know a heck of a lot more like, for example, organic chemistry. And that's just the nature of the curriculum, like they're told to just read this textbook. And that textbook is often like what I'm doing now in college, like introduction to organic chemistry, at the college level. So being able to know a lot of these more advanced concepts that they don't cover in high school in New Zealand, and what the New Zealand Olympiad committee has decided, it's like, it's just not worth its time, would would really just be the way to do it. And I think the other caveat of studying too early is that you will learn the material really well. But you have to try and hit your peak knowledge and lessons for Olympic athletes as well, right, you want to hit your peak fitness, add around competition time, you don't want to train really, really hard, and then be at a level where you're like, Okay, I'm happy. And then you can't maintain that level. So I think I kind of, that's what happened to me in the international chemistry Olympiad is that like, I sort of really, really gone hard for the selection exam, and I was really, really prepared. And then in the month afterwards, I really grinded away on the problems to the extent that I finished a lot of the preparation, about a month or two out from the competition. And then I sort of just tried to keep going, but there wasn't really more questions to do. So I wasn't training like the same mental muscles, as well. And then when the competition actually came, and I look back through some of the problems, I realized that like, I sort of couldn't do them will kind of remember some of the things that I easily could remember before. So it's about finding the balance between like the right timing, and the right preparation.
Jamie Beaton 27:48
Very well said, very thoughtful. Okay, now dig into this. One thing about the Ico both the final round, and the selection that existed within New Zealand you described is that you go on these kind of, you know, week long, multi day long type activities, and, you know, there's social time, there's dinner time, etc. Now, when I'm approaching something that's quite high stakes, for me, I'm often super focused on on bed, so you know, whether it be the exam or you know, key interview, often I won't, you know, eat the morning a fair assessment, to keep me even sharper. And, you know, I'm really not so pumped about any kind of like socializing or anything that will distract me from ultimately the high stakes, you know, mission, I have a hit. So what's your attitude? When you go to these kind of environments? Can you sort of, you know, socialize in a chill way? No, you've got an exam tomorrow? Or do you get yourself quite wound up into quite a high performance mindset? How do you kind of sit on that spectrum?
Ben Zhang 28:46
Yeah, I think I'm really a mixture of both, I think and then ucln selection camp, I really was sort of like anti social kept to myself just studied the whole time. And like, in the end at work, but it wasn't, it didn't make the candle pleasant experience. And I think, learning from that I made the international experience, I really focused on like connecting with other people, there were still people at the international competition, who just like didn't want to talk to anyone, they really just wanted to go back to their rooms and study, you know, they were bringing the books with them on excursions to like the different tourist places, and they were reading as they were going. And I think that's the two different approaches. I don't think necessarily last minute studying will help much. It's more about, like you said, getting into the right mindset. And I guess everyone has different ways of doing that. And I think my way is really just trying to relax and getting on top of my emotions for something important or high stakes. And sometimes that's like, hanging out with other people and like relaxing. I think I want to read a guide that a few x McLean's people have made of the chemistry Olympiad. And the final one was like, you know, before the final camp selection exams, opponents like relax, have fun. And this person was like, you know, I always play my friend and at game of table tennis, and I beat him that morning before the exam. So I was feeling pretty good before the exam going in. So I think I always take that as an inspiration.
Jamie Beaton 30:13
I like it, you kind of do your preparation, get into high intensity state and sort of relax right before and kind of put those butterflies at ease as you get into that game state. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. Now, we talked a lot about the chemistry Olympiad. Let's switch gears now to the international biology Olympiad. One thing I should say is it's quite rare. And I see you know, many of the world's smartest kids from many different countries who are really offering the top of their game. But it's rare to see you know, one person really succeed in two different Olympiads and two consecutive years. And I think the reason for this is that often the level of mastery you need in one domain is so high that you just can't specialize in two different Olympians. So I guess first question, and why did you decide to go off for the biology Olympiad? And and sort of have have both Islam kids versus focusing on one? And I guess what was it about your preparation or your mindset that let you kind of, you know, 60 to not just one but both is Olympiads.
Ben Zhang 31:08
Yeah, I think the real reason why I did the Biology Olympiad is quite, it's quite funny, because the Chemistry Olympiad told me that I couldn't compete again, because I'd won a medal. And that was just the policy of the New Zealand Chemical Olympiad Trust. And I was like, okay, that's fine. I guess I'll find something else to do. And at the same time, I was looking into summer, Northern Hemisphere summer opportunities, like the London International Youth Science Forum, which I also ended up doing right off the Biology Olympiad, fortunately. But I think it was really like my parents, like, oh, like you're interested in medicine, and like biology is great, and you're taking biology, like, there's this biology olympiad, you should, like, look into it. And like see, I was like, at that point, I was like, okay, whatever. Like, let's, let's have a go through this exam. And I think I did the first round exam, I must say, I did not do that. Well, in the first round I got in, but the exam was not to fly. And then afterwards, it was more of like, just studying the material which again, like chemistry Olympiad, you got you have the summer to study the material, they send you a textbook, and essentially had the mantra is just memorize the textbook, which was really interesting. Because like before, then I have haven't really had a lot of experience in formal biology, education. And I think biology is different in that. This there's a real disconnect between high school biology, education, biology, education and college because the and even the field as a whole now that I'm at a place where I see research being carried out. It's really going from memorization, qualitative description, gross anatomy into the more quantitative analytical problem solving, the shift, and the great up biology Olympiad, the style of questions as well, you'll see, you'll see like, if you look at problems from 10 years ago, it's like, name this one like structure in the kidney. And then now it's like, has a graph from a scientific paper about renal function and answer these three questions about the features of the study. And I think that's really just representative of where biology is moving. And I think I found that really, really interesting. I have really more interested in thinking and problem solving, doing all that as opposed to just rote memorization, which apparently New Zealand has a really nice add that New Zealand kids like we can't really compare to like kids from like China or the US in like rote medical, like the Russians and rote memorization. But apparently, New Zealand does quite well in the international biology olympiads, because we have kids that based on our education system was really, really good at critical thinking good at analyzing data good at interpreting new things. So that's the nature of that. And I think because there was such an emphasis on interpretation and problem solving, as opposed to just content like math, or chemistry or physics laws, I think I was able to do quite well just because I had a really solid foundation and like problem solving, that had a really strong work ethic and be able to do the problems and getting their basic level of foundation down. But after getting that basic level foundation down, it was more just like really critical thinking.
Jamie Beaton 34:19
Well said and what will be some of the key differences in preparation process for ICS IBO so if you're a student sitting here in high school, you're 15 years old, thinking about which of these two areas to go down? How would you to determine kind of what fork in the road to choose? Which Olympiads right for who? Any thoughts on that one?
Ben Zhang 34:36
Yeah, it really comes down to personal preference because both of these things will require you to spend a lot of time and a lot of energy just doing one particular thing or in one particular area. So you really want to make sure you you do enjoy doing it or else it will be an absolute drag. As you can imagine, like if you just are doing something that you're not enjoying, it's just not going to be worth the time no matter what Going to achieve. So I think really finding like, what you enjoy out of the content isn't like the satisfaction of solving a particular problem has a little aside, I remember while studying, this is for the International Olympiad, they, each year they publish like a set of practice problems to all the contestants internationally, to get them prepared for the type of questions that you'll see on the international competition. And there was just this one really, really, really, really difficult question that I just couldn't understand. And like the, the tutors in New Zealand couldn't understand either my friends, my teachers school couldn't understand. I was just sitting there thinking I couldn't do it. It was like the late afternoon, I just had lunch, I was sleepy. So I just like sat back in my chair and basically had a nap. And when I woke up from the nap, like, for some reason, it just all came clear to me and I just solved it in like five minutes. I was like, Wow, it was a very interesting formative, whatever you want to call it experience. I think that's what's really makes it enjoyable, which is being able to solve these problems that just seems so impossible and so, but like sometimes the solutions actually really like beautiful and delicate.
Jamie Beaton 36:08
I love that that brain blast, that inspiration, that's good. And I guess that speaks to kind of being in that headphone mindset as well. You know, it took some time off you you were sitting on that couch relaxing there, bam, hit you. So let's transition now we've spoken a lot about kind of how you master these two really pretty high stakes Olympiads and really thrived in both of them. And I guess the alchemy really stands out about your academic record in high school is, you know, you're able to get into a premier scholarship not once but twice, you're able to top the country. And you know, basically all your core subjects Kim physics bio English Lit. So I want to take a bit of a deep dive into some of the tactics you would give a student around consistency and exams, you know, what are some of the classic things you do to make sure that you know, morning, afternoon, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, you know, back to back, whatever you're on your game? And what is it about your mindset, your preparation, walk me through how Ben Zhang prepares for these exams?
Ben Zhang 37:03
Yeah, I think the most important thing, right, like superstitions aside, whatever, I have a bunch but like how well they work. I'm a skeptic. I don't believe in any of that. But I still do it. I think the most important thing is just being really well prepared, right, like with the good thing about Cambridge. So the thing that I love about Cambridge is you can find paseos online, you can ask your teachers will pass papers, they have access to like unstarted past papers. And that's the most important thing. Because these exams, they're really designed to test the key learning criteria in the syllabus, and there's only so many ways that they can do it. So when you do these papers, you're going to reach a point where you have seen essentially every single iteration of a problem that they can give you and in the office that they throw a wrench into, chances are you're going to be better prepared anyways than the rest of the people at handling this wrench. So I remember in my Yeah, a letter. And so I was doing as physics. And it was just a really, really difficult answer because it's short answer paper. And like, people were struggling, and I thought I struggled. But it turns out that because I had done essentially every single paper in the past 10 years, I was able to do quite well and actually surprised myself by getting top in New Zealand that year. Like I was like, What is going on? I thought I did awfully, but apparently, that's still better than what other people did. So really, if you have the preparation in place, you shouldn't be nervous at all. Because even if you see something that you've never seen before, chances are, you already know how to solve the problems. And I think a lot of the times people really just go into these exams, they underprepared. They haven't done all the available revision material to them, given to them. And then they're struggling. And they wondering, Okay, what else could I have done? And the answer is, you probably should have just revised more and came up with a better revision schedule where you're spacing out past papers, as you go. The same goes for scholarship exam scholarship, also released like the past seven years or something ridiculous like that, for each exam, so you have access to just so many problems. They have like a textbook with even more problems, or like stuff that you could study. So there really is no excuse to not study the material that you're given, obviously, if you have like five exams, and you're gonna have to prioritize on the exams that are coming up, or the old subjects that you're less familiar with. But other than that, I think revision is really the most important thing. But I will say with one caveat, it's like you shouldn't be doing pass papers. If you do not have mastery of the material, right? Like if you're doing pass it around, you don't buy like 50% of the problems, then that's just wasting your time and you could better spend that time first learning the material and once you've actually learned how to solve these types of problems like know the material itself, then you move on to pots and pans. And also a lot of the times you can learn theory as you go but like that might not be the most helpful thing for everyone but yeah.
Jamie Beaton 40:00
I guess the other thing that I would say here is because you studied so rigorously for chemistry and biology Olympiad, your base of content is going to be so high that there's probably a lot of synergies we're getting across these different fields. So, you know, your, your deep expertise in chemistry is naturally going to help you nail the scholarship exam. I found, for example, in my case, you know, one of my strings is English literature. So, because I put a lot of time into English literature, I could do English language thinking skills, General paper business, that is economics, like, you know, things like Media Studies and geography, because it all use the same core set of skills. So I think the other thing that probably helped you here is just that muscle memory built in the natural sciences. It's just really giving you this kind of edge across all the different exam formats, even though scholarship and a levels, you know, testing some different concepts sometimes.
Ben Zhang 40:43
Yeah, exactly. Well said.
Jamie Beaton 40:45
Okay. Now, to dig into this a bit deeper. Every year, I think it's true that most kids don't do the preparation required to get through all the past exams. And so that's a really good point, I think super accurate for most people, that's just something that they need to do. But at the highest level of competition, right? Like take the top five kids that McLean's, the top couple of kids at King's, etc. And these are New Zealand schools, for reference, you know, everyone will probably have done all the past papers. So at that point, what do you think differentiates you know, different students? You know, what, differentiate sort of the 93% in A Level physics from a 97? Or 98, for example? And what is it that kind of gets you over the line?
Ben Zhang 41:21
that's a that's a great question. Honestly, if I know the answer, I would start my own tutoring agency, right. Like, it's like it's, it's, it's a, if you think about it, it might be a statistics problem. Once you reach the edge of the curve, like you have some certain percentage of getting a certain grade, and you can study and it'll narrow the range of possible grades that you'll get. But you can never do anything with certainty right, I guess. Other than the general exam advice of like, check your answers as you go, like, like find different ways of like, seeing if you have right like really sanity checking your answers like, do your answers make sense? Are you solving for the mass of a person and you get like 500 kilograms, right, like stuff like that, and stuff like that, I would say, like, at the very top, you're sort of getting kids who are really, really similar, and that grade distributions are honestly probably due to chance. And this is something that we see in like interviews, and like when you're accepting people for different clubs, because I'm on like, the Board of a few different clubs. And we'll interview people. And we're like, there is no useful way of being able to differentiate these top candidates. But we're going to have to make some arbitrary selection. I think that's what I'm saying one person has the absolute top mock, essentially does. So it really, I think at the top, there is no way of knowing that you're going to get the tama guy very surprised that I was able to get a top mock now that i think i think they actually, I'm not sure if this is true, this could be has to be me sparing heresy, but, um, say actually, we'll go back and look at the papers of kids who get like at the very, very top and look at the quality of your answers, as opposed to just the absolute pure grade, even in the natural sciences. Not sure how true that is. That could be the case. I'm not sure. Yeah.
Jamie Beaton 43:18
Interesting. Interesting. Okay. The other thing that jumped out to me about your exam results was your English literature performance. Because, you know, obviously, you're a master of Natural Sciences, but you also topped the country in English Lit, which is, you know, really quite impressive, because it's rare to see somebody that's strong in STEM and also humanities, generally speaking. So if you compare your preparation for these natural sciences, how would you go about preparing for English Lit? And is this something you're consistently good at? You think you had a really good exam, you're naturally strong in that area, as well kind of walk me through where that performance in English literature came from?
Ben Zhang 43:52
I think, yeah, the results in English, English literature, is really due to classic overcompensation. Like I was really bad at English, through intermediate and early High School. And that was an area that I really, really dedicated a lot of time studying. In fact, there was at one point, I think I was studying like more in English and reading the text and annotating and really understanding what's going on more than like, I was studying the science, it's just because like, that was the area that I knew I was the weakest that it's getting to a point where like, in English literature, you have like your set text, right? Like I could essentially just pull quotes out of my brain, I can, if you give me a quote that I would know exactly where it is, because I've read the book, like three or four times and I have everything annotated based on themes and whatever. So I'm like, like during orchestra practice, like whenever I have some spare time, I'll like whip out my book or whip out my pen, and I'll start like annotating good notes. And really, it just comes down to practice. And it's sort of practice that I've led up a little over college, which I really need to get back into. It's just being able to write because the thing about writing is if you don't practice it, if you don't write it your writing would just deteriorate really, really quickly scary quickly. So I was essentially writing practice essays, practice paragraphs planning essays, like I was writing like a practice paragraph a week, and I was getting my English teacher to grade it, just sort of like turning up to the class and be like, Hey, I wrote a practice out, I can give you some feedback on this. And I was doing that, like the exam is in like December, I was starting to write practice paragraphs in like, May, April, right, and it just carries through until the end of the year. So it's really a long process of like, wanting to get master of English, I also found it really fascinating. I do love reading. And I do love the themes that we discuss in these texts. It's just something that doesn't really come as natural to me as the sciences.
Jamie Beaton 45:46
Now hearing you speak about this kind of intensive preparation, you know, study in May for exams coming up at the end of the year, for example. First of all, I think I think back to this classmate of mine from Harvard called Jason Dong. He was at Westlake in New Zealand, he was the highest achieving student there. And he won a scholarship to go to UWC, I think world college somewhere for his last two years scoring an almost perfect IB score. And I remember him telling me about his approach to Cambridge exams, because he's got a number of top in New Zealand awards, I think, at IG level. And he had basically already been through the whole course, by the time school actually even started in February, right. So he literally was sitting in class, and he'd already seen it all, it was just all revision for him. And when I first heard that, I was pretty mind blown, because I like to think of myself back then as a pretty intense academic student. But the idea of kind of getting through content a year in advance was, you know, was pretty intense. But I guess what I see consistently is, if you plot a graph of academic achievement, and then work ethic, at least some high school, it's almost all the case that the kids that have the highest shading within any school or country are often those who are also putting in the hardest work, you know, the idea that there's this, you know, super genius kid who just rolls into exams and bangs out perfect scores, you know, it's just a bit of a mess. So, to what extent do you think you know, the highest performance in high school academics? is, you know, really a function of hard work? Or do you think there a lot of other variables like genetics or, you know, other factors that come into this, like your parents background? Well, how would you decompose kind of high achievement if it was like a regression equation, for example?
Ben Zhang 47:19
Yeah, I think it's really yeah, the most important, if you look at the factors that influence that the most important is for sure, hard work. And I would say like with that, you have to be in an environment where you're able to spend time doing this hard work, right? Like, we talk a lot about equity and education. And some of the times like, you might be in a situation where like, you have to hold a part time job, you have to look after your siblings, you have to like, do housework, and you're not in an environment where you can have access to this hard work. And I think that's also really important. And that's why we talk a lot about giving kids equal education opportunities, and really increasing the quality of education, because like, if you are able to give everyone at least the opportunity to do their best work, then I think everyone will be able to do what they're really good at. Right? Like they're gonna be able to do something that they're proud of, and an area that they're really interested in. And I mean, I don't think we're there yet, obviously, with all the inequality that we have. And it really comes down to a function of like, hard work, but also access. And I think if we have those two, then really, kids will be able to perform at a really high level.
Jamie Beaton 48:36
Very true, very true. Okay, now, let's move a little bit to kind of college decisions, you know, coming out of high school with all these different, you know, wonderful accolades, you know, you're going to be a very competitive candidate for you know, the world's top schools, MIT loves Olympiad medalists who tick these boxes, you know, Stanford, loves to see people that are kind of pushing the intellectual vitality, ie. taking things outside of school. And then Harvard loves to see just consistent execution, you know, dux every year, premier scholar early, you know, national level accolades and academics, as you're really taking a lot of these different boxes. So why did you ultimately choose Harvard, particularly given your natural science focus? What was it about that particular school that resonated with you? You know, would you make the same choice again, how do you think about that?
Ben Zhang 49:21
Yeah, I mean, I think I didn't put that much thought into I didn't really like, analyze too much into it. Harvard's obviously an amazing school. I think, talking to people from the US and talking to people from McLean's who've gone there. I learned about like the wonderful research opportunities, not to say that there's a lot of wonderful research opportunities everywhere, and different schools, I think it really comes down to just I want it to be somewhere really far from home just to be in a completely different environment. And Boston is sort of like a really old town. It's like red brick, I'm sure you'll know. It's really really different from us in every single sense. The winters are cold and there's a lot of snow it's just very northeast us and bringing in guys yeah, it was like that like a few weeks ago the lease was still four colors I had like a few photoshoots my friends it was lovely and I think that's really what sort of cemented my decision is just essentially like the strength of the school the strength of its research on the sort of people that I would get exposed to as well as I think financial aid is like a big factor like hobbies essentially can bank anyone attending which is nice and also the Northeast environment. I think it was it was it's obviously like kind of tough because it gets really cold and really dark in the winter time but ultimately I'm grateful for the people that I've met and the experiences that I've had.
Jamie Beaton 50:47
Well said, and wondering Harvard Square you know after the 2am problem situations and stuff. What are some of the favorite spots you like to go on campus? I definitely love Pinocchio's for example, Philippe's as though some of the, you know, Insomnia Cookies. Also that was that that was a classic. What are some of your go to spots on Harvard Square food?
Ben Zhang 51:04
Yeah, yeah, I know, Pinocchio's definitely, I think tasty burger.
Jamie Beaton 51:10
Still open to 4am is it?
Ben Zhang 51:12
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's one of the only places that like because I'm not too big of a fan of like Mexican food. So like Philippe's phase. didn't really have that much of it to to me. So like tasty, but it was really like when my friends and I would go, we would reward ourselves after like, a satisfying piece that session. So yeah, they recently opened up a kung fu tea in the square. That opens pretty late as well. Wow, that's cool. Yeah, back when
Jamie Beaton 51:37
I was there, basically, there was tasty burger up into for him. And then I hop as well, which was, which is like an American International House of Pancakes place. And so I hope we'd go if we were really desperate, but generally tasty. Was the was the winner? Yeah, very good spots around them. Okay. And, um, I guess one of my last kind of questions for you been a lot of students, I see they go hard in high school, they get into the dream colleges. Anyway, when they get to college, they take the foot off the gas a little bit, because they've already sort of, you know, achieved a big milestone for them. And they no longer feel the same kind of burning impetus to keep keep driving. But if I think about what you've been able to do at Harvard, you know, you're working for the broad Research Institute, you've got an almost perfect GPA in the natural sciences, I guess, what keeps you going? And particularly how have you maintained that academic GPA? And how do you balance difficult classes with, you know, classes that you can sit down? And for example, walk me through some of your psychology and decision making at Harvard?
Ben Zhang 52:33
I would say it's that inconsistent had best my doesn't make so yeah, is that a lot of like back and forth deciding what I want to do? And who I want to be in that kind of question as you would going through like a big transition in your life? I think, my approach freshmen, yes, I did a really, really difficult intro life science, computational biology, it's like this comprehensive course called lsst. And it actually took up two class slots, and you do it for the whole year. So that's sort of like four courses, essentially gone your whole year. And so that was really intense, but also really rewarding. And I met some of the people that I'm closest with on campuses across some very grateful for that. But I think I also have learnt about my own limits, like in my family, obviously was doing was really difficult class, I was doing x files, which is
Jamie Beaton 53:21
Expository Writing, that's painful.
Ben Zhang 53:23
I did not enjoy, I was also in a really, really difficult section talking. So I'm a PATH now, which is paired advising fellow and fellow which is what Harvard does. It's like a program where upperclassmen students will mentor the first year students, and speaking to some of my pet fees for first year doing xlarge. Like, it's just such a wide range of expository writing experiences, and I definitely got the short end of the stick with mine. My preceptor was really, really mean writer, and he would leave like really harsh comments on like, objectively Alright, writing and, um, and it was just very painful my first year adjusting for that. And as well as taking like two writing courses. There's a lot of papers, a lot of like, 3am writing sessions. And I think that really burnt me out a lot at the start of the first and so I think I really had to learn about how much I was able to handle my plagues. I was also doing like a whole suite of extracurricular activities that took up a lot of my time. And I think at the end of the day, with, with our DOS, people taking their foot off the gas, I think people's priorities change, and I think that's fundamentally okay. I don't think anyone ever will fault themselves or for other people for like, letting themselves relax in college. And I think that's along with the sentiment that you see, like you still have. It's almost this sort of sentiment where like, if you're still really really cutthroat and hotter in college, then it's just it's just not a great time because you're at a stage where you really should be working for something that you enjoy and you should be working for like specific goals right like if you want to work in like investment banking or consulting Yes, you go hard for those positions, but you should also know what you actually enjoy. And really value, like a whole suite of other things that make you who you are, as opposed to just keep doing things for the sake of doing things I I personally know, people who are like that, who are still just doing things really, really aggressively, and I don't see them at all, and they look miserable. And I'm really glad that I am not one of those people. So I think that there definitely needs to be a balance, especially when you're in an environment like this, where you have so many options to overwork yourself, is to realize that you don't have to, which is really valuable. And I think I do that, and balancing my classes like I do do like really difficult classes. But I think in choosing my concentration or major, I really made the decision of doing something that gives me the most flexibility, and really reduces the amount of required courses that I have to take. So I do have that flexibility to be like, Oh, I want to challenge myself with a difficult class or Oh, I just want to cruise and take some like more chilled requirements, for example. And I think finding that balance has been really helpful. And it's really helped my mental health a lot as well.
Jamie Beaton 56:05
Yeah, well said, when I was at Harvard, I really was...
Ben Zhang 56:09
Were you one of the hard ones Jamie?
Jamie Beaton 56:11
I think what you said earlier about how at college, you define what really motivates you and find that path you really care about, that really hit me pretty early on. So I wasn't kind of chasing like the four oh, GPA, you know, just taking easy classes to get a high, you know, high grade, I would probably say I have a slightly more respect for that approach. In that, I kind of get it why some people do this, like if they want to work in banking, if they just, you know, nail, the high GPA, you know, will open a lot of doors, if they want to get to law school, the game rewards a high GPA. So I understand why people do this. And I definitely don't hate it. But my approach was very much to have a GPA target in mind, and then take really challenging classes that I enjoyed that challenge me, but also mix in some other ones that you know, were a bit easier. So some of my favorite classes were things like, you know, negotiation, things like business in China ethical reasoning, I even took like a global health secondary, which was just, you know, a piece of interest. So I would definitely say I found that balance. And I was putting a lot of time to finance like, you know, stock stock investing for a firm called tiger. And then I was closest board and crimson. So I think I found my priorities, fortunately, pretty early on in college, and I really was quite dedicated to them. So I cut out a lot of random extracurriculars and focused on on a handful. And I think broadly, the point that I'd make is, in high school, kind of the objective function, or the goal you're optimizing for is a lot more clear, you kind of need to know your academics get your good score, you know, work out, you know, you're really interesting extracurriculars. But basically, there's a pretty clear narrative, you've got to go down, when you get to college, you know, you just have so many choices, you just have to start making those big life calls. And I think the people that get stuck in an arms race of just chasing the bank and get the vet or know what's next are probably not gonna be that happy down the line. So I think I really do believe that insight you have which is in college, find the path of impact, find the path of meaning and you know, start to kind of carve out your own trajectory and sense of, you know, long term goal that's going to make you happy. I think that that is definitely what I've seen work for well, definitely to wrap things up in. We have a lot of ambitious kids listening to this podcast around the world, you have a very inspiring journey. Obviously. Any final words your impart for our listeners?
Ben Zhang 58:16
Yeah, I think to to kids who are still in high school, really just prioritize the thing that you're good at, know what you're good at early on, and really try and do really, really well at it because I think that puts you ahead of like a lot of other people if you know there is something or a few things that you can do better than others, then just make that your thing and really go hard at it and believe in yourself.
Jamie Beaton 58:40
Well said Ben, love it. Thanks so much for the discussion today.
Ben Zhang 58:43
Thank you.