Black Panther: Wakanda Forever - Review pt.2

Host Y. M. Nelson and guests wrap up the Black Panther: Wakanda Forever review with a discussion of several more topics before each giving a rating on this Marvel comics movie.

We talk everything from Namor to women in Wakanda to colonialism in this lively review of the Marvel sequel. Some topics we discuss:

• The role of women in Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
• Storylines and screentime
• Namor's world and him as an anti-hero
• Easter Eggs and little things of note
• Overall rating (Based on Goodreads' 5-star rating)

*Note* This was previously a premium episode for my Nerdy Romantics Community. Instead of premium episodes, we are doing more things there that reflect … well, community! Plus, we’re giving away some pretty exclusive stuff. It’s all for the fans who want to interact with each other. So, join us! https://buymeacoffee.com/authorymnelson/membership

#marvel #movietube

Chapters

• 0:00 "Women in STEM" - The women of Wakanda (Continued)
• 9:34 Movie inconsistences
• 14:04 Namor's backstory v. other characters
• 26:58 Movie things that stand out - what's next, Chadwick Boseman's tribute
• 36:08 Movie stealing characters: Rhomunda, Killmonger,
• 37:51 Colonialism
• 41:46 Romantic mentions
• 46:08 Goodreads Rating

Transcript

Y. M.: Hello Nerdy Romantics! So, let’s get back to our discussion on Black Panther 2: Wakanda Forever. In this part of our discussion, we will continue what we’ve been talking about with regard to women left behind after war. We’re going to talk a little bit about other things in the movie, and we are going to give this movie a Goodreads rating. So, stay tuned.

This is the Nerdy Romantics Podcast, and I'm your host Y. M. Nelson [music]

Women of Wakanda  (continued)

Staci: I mean, but where is it?

Marcie: Up by the way.

Staci: you say all these

Well, I mean, we say there's no men in this, but I mean, just think about the first one. The first one was the villain he's got, I mean, the first one we had the- Killmonger and he's gone dead. And you had T’Challa Other than that, there was no major male. 

Corey: M’Baku

Staci: He was in there, but-

Marcie: So two dead and the-

Staci: major, major character. He was, at first we thought was gonna be a villain, but more of antagonist too, but that's it. You only really had three guys in the first one besides, I mean, they're in Wakanda as Wakanda, people, as

Dana: But their roles, their roles were bigger. So is it's, it's not, I'm not literally counting people. I'm talking about, the movie was basically like, it was lot women, women with women. Even the, the guy, the people that were like with the guy with his little wings 

Y. M.: Namor

Dana: or whatever. They were, they were women, you know?

I know there was a guy there too, but, and I'm not saying anything was wrong about it, I'm just saying that I noticed and it was kind of, I just felt weird. I was like, is there something here that's going on Now, had they explained that all the men died in the first, like, okay. But I was just, it was weird.

I just, I, I, in my mind I wondered was it done on purpose? And I think also because they introduced a new female character that I wasn't a fan of too. I was, That whole little setting with the three of them and all that, I, I didn't like that. It just, it, it felt forced. It didn't feel right. And so I just, you know, it, you know, it didn't work for me.

But I think, again, it's all about where we are in our lives and what we, you know, come up against this stuff and how we feel. But I did notice that I was just like, wow. And some of the jokes and some of the things are, it just, I dunno.

Y. M.: Yeah.

Corey: Even the posters have all women in it.

Y. M.: yeah.

Dana: See, I didn't even 

Y. M.: mostly, 

Corey: two men in the back.

Y. M.: Yeah, they're in the back. Yeah. Perry, you weren't, you were trying to say something earlier.

Perry: Yeah, so I think, I think the, the feminist stuff in, in this movie is very much an extension of the first movie. I think if you watch that, that first movie, again, it's, it's subversively a very feminist movie. It's very celebratory , of women of black women especially. And you've got, The only reason Tacha is able to rise up against Kilmmonger in the end is because of the, the role that the women play in that movie between Ramonda and, and Shuri.

And Nakia and Okoye. They're the ones who, who rise up and lift him up so that he's able to, to come back. And if you look at it, it's almost that entire movie. It's a failure of male leadership, starting with Taka killing off his brother, which leads to the creation of Killmonger Ross, representative of America, and the CIA building Up Killmonger, giving him the training he needs to become this threat.

Claw being, this colonial I idea that also helps lead to the creation of Killmonger and gives him the idea for his plan. And then you've got Zuri as well Forrest Whitaker's character who was participating in maintaining this lie in order to preserve the status quo. And, and you have M’Baku who's kind of–he sees all of this fail all around him, right?

I mean, all the male characters T'challa dies, Killmonger dies, Wabi, Daniel Kaluuya’s character. It ends up participating in Killmonger's revolution and gets sentenced to prison because of it, like they mentioned in this movie. So, yeah, now it's all left to, and I think, I'm not sure if it was Marcie or Staci who mentioned this, but I thought it was a great point that this is.

Women who have to clean up the mess that failed male leadership created. And I thought that was, I never, I didn't realize that theme at first, but now that you were talking about that, it really kind of unlocked that idea for me. So it totally tracks for me why you have all these women taking up the mantle here after.

And I think M’Baku, yeah, he's there, but I think he comes to realize, he saw what happened and yes, it could have been developed more. , I'll definitely grant you that, but I think that's why he takes on more of this role of an advisor to Shuri. Cuz there's that scene at Ramonda's grave when Shuri says to him, she's like, what?

You think I'm just a, a child who who scoffs that tradition? And he tells her, he is like, I think you've got, I can't remember exactly what he said, but

Marcie: He said something like, life has taken far too much from you

Perry: Yes, exactly.

Marcie: child.

Perry: Yeah. Yeah. He realizes that he's not the one who should be leading. And I think he, I, I, I grant you, that could have been developed more.

But I think that is what is driving his character, is that he realizes his power is in supporting the new female leadership as opposed to trying to continue to preserve this tradition that has not worked.

Dana: But do you think then, if that's the case, it seems to me that it's gonna end as soon as the little boy turns of age or whatever. So again, could we not have maybe had a daughter if we're gonna continue, like, cuz to me again, it falls back, oh, we're, we're, we're supported, we're women, we're here, we're here to support you.

Men doing what it, cuz it's gonna keep going down the line of men, whatever. So I feel like

Y. M.: Well, why can't he be raised differently? To be more of a, of to have the perspective of M’Baku kind of, and he be a different kind of–

Marcie: I, I mean, I think that's already been established in the way, in the way that his parents chose to raise him, I think, and not, not in immediately introduce him as a prince. I think all of that is indicative that his path will be different than the one his father had to take. And I think there's room for that story.

And still have a, have Shuri be Black Panther at this moment. I think the thing is that we have to remember that Black Panther is a mantle, it is not a permanency of any person and that it will likely transfer again, potentially before it even gets to him. It may transfer again. So I think that we have to recognize that this is a phase, this is part of the rebuilding of a country that that had been devastated in some ways.

And I think it's, it's just indicative of, of that, of, of a part of an arc. It's not the end, it's, it's, it's the, a part of an arc and it, and it, and I think it's what a lot of second movies have to do, which is introduce all these other people. So now more RiRi what Okoye will become all of those things.

Some, some movie has to do it. Let's be honest, our man too wasn't that great either. I think there's a tho there's a

Dana: I loved all of

Marcie: crash that second one particularly. So I think that there's just a moment, unfortunately

Y. M.: the

Marcie: in a lot of

Y. M.: is forgettable.

Marcie: the second movie has to do a lot of heavy lifting

Dana: Oh yeah. I think we all agree with 

Marcie: won't because the third gets to settle back into the groove.

But I also think when you think about the franchise of Thor and Valkyrie taking over as another female taking over for a devastated country, I think at some point I don't think it's atypical of the genre to see female leadership. And so I think it didn't.

Dana: So let me ask so you go ahead.

Perry: oh, sorry. I just about the, about the young T’Challa. I think it's too soon to say whether or not he, you're right, it has that potential to go that way. But at the moment it, I think it's too soon to say for sure that they're just going back to the old ways of doing things. We'll have to see how that plays out in future movies. You might be proven, right? I don't know, but I think it's too early to say.

Dana: I think

Corey: I think it also would've left it more open if they had just gone with him having a daughter, then you really don't know where they're gonna go.

Perry: Yeah, I think you're, you're right. I think having a daughter would've been better. I, but I think what they wanted to do is they wanted to have a way to bring T’Challa back without bringing T’Challa back. So it's kind of a case of trying to have, have it both ways where , they're trying to satisfy the people who think you should have recast, but they're also trying to satisfy the people who think the role should have, should have been left , with Chadwick.

So I think they're just trying to, they're trying to square that circle a little bit. And it's, it's a bit of as cover, it's a bit of as covering, I will definitely grant you that. And yeah, it would've been more impactful to that theme if he had had a daughter or if they didn't have a daughter, a child at all.

If it is just sh this is Shri, she's the Black Panther now, and that's how it's gonna be going forward.

Movie inconsistencies

Dana: She gets killed in episode three and then we No, it's okay. So then, ok. So I wanted to ask y'all about RiRi because this is one of the things that I guess bothered me and I know we just, I mean, the movie was already too long, so they can't explain everything. But y'all, when she was in the room with Angela Bassett and they needed help, I guess she was trying to keep her shields up or everything, I don't remember.

And she was like, can I help? Or whatever. Angela Bass is like, sure. So she runs up to the wall that none of us even knew anything was there. She is gone. She, I'm like, she didn't have to learn nothing. There were no password she had to put, it was just like, it's little things like that throughout the movie that just kinda, again, I was like, how does she know what she's doing?

And don't

Marcie: but by that point, she had already been in the lab with Shuri, so I don't,

Dana: ah, that wasn't Shirley's lab that she was standing in. Shirley's

Marcie: no, but she had already been in the lab with Shuri, so she was familiar with the technology. The who and the what I

Dana: be familiar with the technology, but I wouldn't expect to be familiar with the program. So she may have, Hey, I've used a a Mac before, but why she would know about the security protocols that she's doing to keep the shields up. I don't feel like that's what she was back there doing while she was working on her little Ironman suit.

So I, to me that didn't make any sense. And it just, again, in the normal context, the stuff in real life that would it, we wouldn't expect anybody to be able to do that. And it just felt like it wasn't explained. And so, again, I, her whole character to me, she's this wiz kid outta nowhere in school due. She acts a little silly to me.

And then like there was so many movies I was, I just, it just didn't do it for me. And the thing is, I didn't hate the movie at all. I enjoyed it. But like when you go and you like kind of break it down 

Marcie: really don't know. I can't tell.

Dana: No, I did. But you know how I am like, and this is interesting to me. I feel like , people who are very invested in it and who have that background and stuff, y'all are gonna always have a different, cuz you are seeing stuff that you've read about.

You see it come to life, it's working for you. I'm on the outside and I'm like, this don't make no sense, but you have more information than I do. So that, that would make sense. But I'm telling you, if somebody who's just sitting here trying to be entertained, y'all know how I am. Any other movie would need you just like that, I'm like, don't make no sense.

I would be the same way here. It still, it didn't make any sense to me, but if you're like, no, you know, she actually wrote that program, she would know how to use it. I didn't see that in the movie that I didn't know. I can only go about what they showed me. And it was little things like that that I was just like, eh, I wish we could explain that a little better.

Cuz it just, again, it just takes away little things from the movie. Cuz I get stuck on it. I'm like, yeah, right.

Perry: I think that's just part of the suspension of disbelief in movies in general. Like when you see them guess a password because nobody in movies uses a complex password. Everyone just uses the name of their pet or something like that. It's the same kind of idea. , it's one of those little inconsistencies from reality that you just kind of accept to keep the movie, the story moving forward.

Dana: And there are movies that you expect to have to do that from. So like, I haven't seen this movie, but I expect Cocaine Bear to be one of those where I have to, kinda, separate that. But I, I guess when I was looking at, going into a condo and stuff, I wasn't expecting it to be that obvious.

Obviously I don't know enough about the scientific realm and stuff that there are, there's tons of little things that could surely get passed by me, whatever. And those things would be fine. But I guess I just thought in this movie, something, to me that seemed like a big, what would not 

Marcie: Well, 

Dana: just slipped the through to crack.

Marcie: I think when Sherry asked her , in the lab, how long did it take you to do this? And she was like, a couple of months. I think at that point they were trying to set you up to let you know this girl is a genius. Like she's tech level. So when I saw her take it up and guess her way through it, like it didn't, it didn't shock me that she

Dana: It wasn't any guessing at all. She didn't guessing with me hitting the wrong button baby or something. There was no guessing. She knew exactly what she was

Marcie: and also she had spent the rest of her time in, in the labs. , that's where she came when she got there. So I think for me it wasn't necessarily surprising also, when you wrap it up the end and you see them still working together in the lab, she was with sure when she helped to create the, the flower, like to me it wasn't, I didn't suspend a lot of disbelief to un to figure that she could, that she was familiar enough to, to work her way through that.

Namor’s backstory v. Other Characters

Marcie: But I, I, I, so to me, I didn't have to suspend a whole lot of disbelief for that part. That was the least of it. There was, there was some other parts where I felt like it was, but I, I will say that I. And I feel like we spent so much time in Nemore's backstory that I do feel like we got cheated on everyone else's

Dana: I agree. Cause I really wanted to know about Wakanda. I could care less about Namar his I, there may be a time for his movie and his backstory cuz it was really pretty to watch, obviously. But like I said, after the first one, I was really want. Being with Kanda a little longer and not just for a funeral.

Marcie: and I think we traded that to understand the underworld and where he came from and to see, and not that I didn't want that, but I do feel like it did force us to rush through everybody else's arc so we could spend a lot of time with his and then, and then see Shuri evolve at end. I do feel like there were a lot of places where we didn't get to develop.

We really didn't. Like I said, I think we left Okoye really unfinished. I think to, to your point, Dana, we, we re kind of got thrown in. We see her and then I think, I do agree that, but I also, the movie was already at three hours at this point. I mean, I don't know how much more , any of us could have taken.

, and so I don't know what I would've done differently if I had been Ryan Cooper, but I do feel like, I feel like an end scene, like a, a post credit scene with some information. And it would've been helpful. I think I, because I do think we got cheated. And maybe it's because he doesn't know where the story's going after this, and maybe that's what it is.

But I do feel like it got, so there was so much going on that certain people, I, I think you're right about M’Baku too, that we didn't really, we kind of gotta see him evolve in the background, but we, but all of a sudden he's wise. I mean it's, I I do think there were places where the people we're familiar with their arts got rushed so that we could learn this new character.

And now I'm confused cuz I'm not even sure if he's going, like, is there, do I, do we have to watch him again? And that's why we needed to know so much about him now. Like I, I think that was the thing is it got rushed and we didn't get the benefit of the people, of the people that we knew already. So I agree with you on that part.

Y. M.: And for, for Namor to be, well, I think of Namor a lot. Like, I think of Killmonger in the fact that he's like a justified bad guy. And, from what we see of, his origin story and everything that helps us justify it, that helps us, be like, okay, like , we're justified , in him being who he is , and wanna, you know burn up the surface world and, all of that kind of stuff.

But I feel like, and maybe it's just because. I get where Killmonger is coming from. Where his whole backstory was coming from. I get that whole thing because, I'm a Black woman in America and you know, I ha I'm of a certain age and have parents were of a certain age. So maybe we just get that versus, we may need a little bit more here.

But the thing is, we didn't really need a little bit more here once we saw him go back up on that surface world and , those people being enslaved and everything, you didn't really have to do anything else to tell me backstory. Right? We didn't really need anything else there to tell me backstory.

Just give me that kind of portion to give me the backstory. Just like with Killmonger, we had that scene, when his father is killed , and you just needed that one scene and that context within that scene to know, okay, I know where this guy is coming from.

We just needed to have that one scene where he goes back up to the surface world to bury his mother and we see that, and I'm fine. I just need that. And I will say the whole beauty of the underwater world where he lives, that whole scene, I think it's a little bit too long, but that was beautiful.

That kind of took me back a little bit to like, not as intensely, but you know how we, when we first saw Wakanda and we first saw them fly into Wakanda, you had that awe, you had that, oh my gosh. You know, it is beautiful in the first movie, you have that. It's beautiful. And so we kind of have a little bit of a resurrection of that feeling there.

Now, to me, those scenes are the necessary scenes to me to just establish his character. And then , I'm done. And then we could have spent that time with the other characters that we feel we got shorted on. That's just my opinion. What do y'all think?

Perry: Yeah, I thought, I think you're right. Killmonger's origin story was told very expertly and succinctly in that first movie. We get everything we need to know about 'em in just those two scenes now. And we didn't need that much time on, on Namor. I think it's, I think I'm wondering if maybe they were, they were nervous if, because Killmonger story is very much rooted in real life situations, right?

The, the Rodney King assaults and all that kind of stuff and the, and the persecution of Black people in America. So I think maybe they figured, oh, the audience will get this. We don't have to spend too much time on it. And I wonder if maybe they were nervous if the audience would see the parallels between the, the Kallkanians and the and and colonized people in general if they didn't spend more time on it.

Or maybe they just wanted to show us all this underwater stuff. I don't know what it is, but I do agree that it did go on a little bit too long.

Y. M.: And , if you're less educated, yes, we may need to know that. , or if you're reading these whitewashed, you know, history books that they're throwing out there in schools. Yeah, maybe you need to know that. But if you know anything about a transatlantic slave trade, and about colonization or anything like, you just needed just those couple of scenes and you get it, and I, yeah, I think you're right.

Maybe they think, the people who are coming to watch this, we may need to handhold a little bit because they're not getting the truth in their school. I don't know what it

Marcie: I don't, I dunno if it's that, but I, I think once you build a world like that, you gotta justify paying for it. And so I think you gotta spend some time there in order for the expense of building.

Y. M.: But the thing is, Marcie, is that unlike Killmonger, Namor is still alive. So we can go back to his world, and I think that's exactly what they're gonna do is go back to his world at some point.

Marcie: I agree. No, I'm just saying if, if there's any reason for it to drag on that long, it was probably financial.

Y. M.: Yeah. It

Perry: Yeah, I agree. I.

Y. M.: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Perry: It would've been, I would've liked to save a lot of that, that extended Namor stuff for his own movie, which ha they, I don't think they've announced anything like that, but if they do want, I, that was where I think that stuff would be better served. You introduce him here, you give him a little taste of what his motivations are, and then you expand on it in, in another movie, I think would've been better.

I agree.

Marcie: Agree.

Y. M.: Mm-hmm. I really liked when they showed 

Staci: Disagree.

Y. M.: Okay. Staci, tell us why.

Staci: I mean, I just like the fact that you see what he is, what he is trying to protect, basically. And I like the fact that I knew the history so I didn't really need that much. But I think there's a lot of people who don't know the history and they want to have that same, have him have the same kind of feeling as Killmonger.

And if you don't understand his history of his people and how they came to be there underwater and have it to go there I think it loses some of his, of his character of what, of what he's fighting for, why he's fighting for it. And I think they do, did need to do it for most people out there. I mean, I didn't, I knew about the history, so I, it really didn't need it.

But I think you needed that to kind of bring that in to have that kill mon aspect. You didn't need as much to Killmonger. ‘Cause what we see constantly, we see see that constantly on TV every day about all the issues with. Brutality. I mean, we've seen all what's happening and we see that, on different TV shows.

If you are, we can see that. But unless you follow history, unless you paid attention to your history lessons, depending on which state you came from, you may not have heard anything at all. 

Y. M.: That's what I was saying about the whitewash. Yeah.

Staci: It would've been whitewashed. So I think they did need that.

Now to say that the rest of it's rushed, I, there's not a way to me, if you gonna keep that in there. No, it is not gonna be rushed. It's already , close to three hour long movie is we have Wakanda the series and we do kind of a thing. That's the only way I can think to get everything that we've said.

Like, we need more time with this. We needed more time with that. It's already three hours. Even if we took that part with Namors out, we still wouldn't have gotten everything we wanted. And like I would like the world full conduct and we just have a limited series and just see how the life and go, I mean we could, well we have Disney plus we, they can make it happen if they wanted to.

But I think that really does, we needed that in there. For those people who don't know that history, they probably think, well, why is he fighting for it? They just living under the water. Like, like The Little Mermaid, you know, know,

Y. M.: right. Exactly.

Staci: I think they really needed that. And you can see how.

Marcie: I feel like it was slow though. I feel like we could have paced it differently

Y. M.: Yes. It could have been sped up.

Marcie: slow going

Staci: was slow, but at the same time, I, I really think it was needed. Cause I also think they're trying to pull in a different, somewhat of a different audience too, into it as more.

Perry: So there is gonna be a Wakanda TV show that is, that was in the works for a while now. I think after Bozeman's death, they had a kind. Scramble a little bit to revise the script because there was already a script in place for that was gonna feature Chadwick , in the lead role. And it was gonna be it was gonna be focused on him being gone for five years in the blip.

Then he comes back and he's got a son. So now he has to, it was gonna be him trying to reconnect, trying to connect with his son after being gone for five years. And it was still gonna involve Namor. So, it's basically he has to save the world while he is got his son there with them. So maybe a bit of a Mandalorian, lone wolf and cub feel.

And then Bozeman died suddenly, and so then they had to rewrite the whole script. So I think any, the development that was already probably in progress for the Wakanda TV show was probably sidelined, but I think that is still in develop- in the works to come down later on soon. So we'll be getting more of that.

Y. M.: Oh, that's interesting to know. I didn't know that. Hmm. But, to Dana's, very earlier point, there are a group of us rabid fans out there. Or a group of us that follow these , and love the Easter eggs, and the connectivity in these.

And if you watch this, you would realize, because, there is a mention of, we haven't seen you in six years for for Nakia, kind of thing. And so if you don't know that whole thing and all that going on that, yeah, so, so there is that and sometimes for us rabid fans tend to look for Easter eggs more than we look at the movie as a movie and as a bit of entertainment. And this is a continuity issue, which is what I'm assuming that you're was saying about RiRi  seems like it would be a continuity issue, which I didn't even notice that. Right?

Because I'm too busy trying to find Easter eggs, with other things. So it's good to have that, that other perspective. 

But, we've been talking a lot about this movie y'all, and like half of the stuff that I wanted to talk. We haven't even touched, but we've got a really, really involved podcast episode here.

Movie things that stand out–what’s next, Chadwick Boseman’s tribute

And I just kind of wanna go around and instead of going through all of the other things that we wanna talk about, just is there anything for any of you that maybe we haven't touched on that you wanted to remark on? And Corey, since it's been a while since we heard you, I'm sorry.

You know how we do, we drown– We drown y'all out. But Corey is there anything that we haven't touched on that you've wanted to touch on?

Corey: Well, for starters, I'm enjoying this whole thing because I love a good debate. I love when, not when necessarily people go at each other, but , there's just , a nice conversation

Y. M.: But, but it's all love there. It's all love.

Corey: of view. Oh yeah. Yes. I love multiple points of view and all that kind of stuff I think is great because some of the things that one person may say, someone else comes along and may enlighten them to go, oh, I didn't think about it that way, or whatever.

That kind of thing. So I was just gonna say that, the only thing that I am looking forward to, or the thing that I wanted to talk about was like, what's gonna happen next? Everybody wants to know what's gonna happen next. 

And when you look at the ending and you look at the post credit scenes with his son, First of all, for me, I was like, where did they find this child? Because he looks like he was born from Chadwick. Like he, is he a relative of his? Is he like a distant, like, spinning image of him from his eyes to his nose? And the way that he was talking that I was like, this is like a perfect casting for someone to take on that role if they were thinking about re-casting or if they were thinking about putting someone else into the Black Panther suit.

I thought that that was really amazing. It was very touching. And I also wanted to talk about the fact that I think this whole movie is basically a tribute to Chadwick. I felt like it, it was a way for us to remember him, a way for us to mourn him and a way for us to appreciate the things that he brought to this franchise.

You know, I, and I think that they did a really well job from the beginning to the end with, with his son. I felt like they did a really delicate job with the way that they did it with respect to Chadwick's family. I think that that's part of the reason why they probably didn't recast is because they want to be the, well, they wanted to be respectful of the family.

I think that the family probably had a lot of say so as to what was being done with the legacy of Chadwick Bozeman and what was being done with the legacy of Black Panther. And I really feel like they did a wonderful job. Like my dad was saying that to me when he was telling me about it, was that was the most, most the thing that he took away the most from watching this movie was just how they were able to handle such a tragic situation that Ryan Coogler had to deal with coming off of the original Black Panther.

So I just wanted to say that, I just really feel like they did a really good job and I'm really looking forward to see what they do next. And I think that they still have a huge challenge ahead of them just like they did with this one, but maybe not so much because there is a glimpse of what could happen with showing his son.

We didn't know what we were getting into when we saw this movie. We had no inclination after seeing the first one of what was gonna, we just thought we were gonna have more of what we already had. Right? We didn't know what we were gonna get into this. And when you throw, a wrinkle into this world with something real life event that happens like that, it does leave everybody up to wonder what's gonna happen, what's gonna happen. I think that they probably had tons of fans who were trying to dig into every single website, every single tweet, every single, viral video or spoiler video that somebody caught on set to see what they were gonna do with this film.

I don't think you're necessarily gonna have that with the next film. So I'm really interested to see where they go from here. How long is it gonna take before we get the next one? Do we need the next one? Is it possible it's just gonna be a TV series and that's it. Like, what, what truly is gonna happen?

And so that's, that's pretty much how I, how I ended, from Wakanda Forever. What I, what I took away from him in the movie.

Y. M.: Wow. Yeah. Dana, what about you? Is there something that we didn't touch on or do you wanna maybe talk about what do you think is gonna happen next kind of thing? Yeah. Tell us.

Dana: So first of all, your listeners already know you don't invite me to the party unless you wanna fight. So I'm glad to bring it. But I guess I just, I wanna say that I am very aware of all the hard work and everything that goes into making movies. Like Corey and I are the people who, at the end of the movie, we always sit there and watch end credits.

And it's funny cuz we actually have somebody walk up to us and tell us one time, oh, there's no end scene. You can leave. And we're like, don't you tell us that we're not, we're not sitting here watching for an end scene. We like to see all the names and all the people that spent their time working on a movie like this.

So I know Marcie laughed when I said like, I liked the movie, I did like the movie. It's just that, we're sitting up here talking about it and it's easier to be an armchair critic and say the things that I spotted and didn't like and made me feel some kind of way, but I do appreciate all the hard work and the talent and the stuff that went into to creating this film and, and the film before in terms of what happens next.

You know, there are a lot of things that were said tonight. Now I don't know what I want to have happen next. Initially I was not interested in continuing na more's journey. It was kind of weird because I'm, I guess I'm used to having a villain, we fight him and then move on to the next one and the next story.

But it definitely seems like this one will be continued. And so I don't really know what to think of that. Cuz I don't know that I want to continue. I'm not sure. And then the whole thing with his son it's funny cuz I think, I think a lot of people did this. I know I did the end, I was like, did Chadwick Bozeman have kids?

I didn't think he had any children, so I had to go and look it up, too. So honestly, I don't know, like , I, again, because I don't know all the additional stuff to me, I'm more of a tell me what you wanna do and I'll let you know if I'm interested versus telling you where I want you to go with this. I'm not invested enough in this story to really say what I want to have happen, versus I'll let you do it and I'll tell you if I like it or not. So that's kinda, you know,

Y. M.: All right. That's fair. That's fair. Marcie, what about you? Is there something that we didn't bring up that you wanna bring up , and, or do you want to tell us what you think about , what will happen next?

Marcie: So I also wanna, I wanna give some credit to Ryan Coogler for the bravery of killing Ramonda in the midst of everything else, because I think it was a, it was a bold choice in, in the scheme of things, to add that, to the list of people. And of course, it is a Marvel superhero movie, people come back all the time.

But , I think that there was bravery in the decision to do that, knowing how beloved the character was. To Dana's point, the difference is when I go into a movie, I am going for what the movie's given me, right? So I don't necessarily look for logic. Or any of those things. I go to see what the filmmaker's gonna gonna give me.

And so I appreciated everything they gave me. I loved all of the Black girl magic. I loved seeing women, especially young women in places of power and in technology, and reminding young black girls that we can be in the lab. I think that's something, I think that's part of representation. I was here for it.

I'm super excited to see Ironheart and where that goes. And I'm also interested, I mean, do I think we need another movie? Yes. Because I wanna see where we go next. And I don't, I'm with Dana in that I don't have a particular path in mind except that I want to see where all of these characters go next.

And I, I hope that it includes more of the stories that I think we missed in this one. I'm, I'm counting this as every other number two in a franchise as, it's kind of like the, it's kind of like the, you know, the restructuring year on a N B A team. You just, you not gonna win necessarily. As many games as you hope, because you gotta rebuild your team.

And that's kind of what the second movie in any franchise really is, trying to bring the story along so that you can keep the story moving. I don't know what's next, but I'm excited to see what's gonna be next. And I'm excited to see both big screen and small screen.

What happens, like Staci said, we got Disney Plus. I'm here for anything they they put out there. I'm probably gonna watch it. But if there's a Black Panther three, I'm here for it. If there's a midnight angel, I'm here for it. I'm, I'm here for however they wanna deliver to me, I'm here for it.

Movie stealing characters: Ramonda, Killmonger

Y. M.: All right. Perry, what about you? Is there something that we didn't bring up that you wanted to bring up and or tell us about where you think it's going next?

Perry: So I kinda wanna do both. First off, how badass was Ramonda in that opening scene at the UN? Right. I mean, that was just.

Y. M.: Yes!

Staci: Awesome.

Perry: We have not talked about that yet, but I, that that scene deserves, she deserves an Oscar just for that scene alone. Like she was just on fire there. I loved it. I, that may be my favorite scene in the movie actually, now that I think about it.

It was also great. You know, we didn't really talk, but we saw Killmonger come back too. That was something that I had expected, and when it happened, I freaked out in the theater because I was so excited to see him on the ancestral plane like that. And,

Y. M.: the only one.

Perry: and,

Y. M.: Some in and some in my theater did that too.

Perry: and also Julia Louis Dreifus coming in again as Val. This is now the third or fourth time she's popped up in the MCU. I love her character so much. She's every bit as evil and as sarcastic and quick witted as she was in in Veep. And I'm, I'm completely here for all of that. Going forward. They've got Avengers: Secret War and King Dynasty on the schedule, and those are gonna involve time travel and alternate universes.

So I think it's very likely we'll see Toussaint as an adult, as Black Panther, whether or not he stays on permanently or if it's just temporarily, I think it's something that we can definitely count on seeing.

Y. M.: Interesting, interesting thought. Staci for you, was there something that we didn't get to that you wanted to talk about and and or where do you think that this is going next? Or what do you wanna see happen next?

Colonialism

Staci: Well, Perry, just. At first, that first scene with their the UN and just how especially with the, the representative from France who was talking about all the things they were talking about, Wakanda should have all this, and, what would they do if they have all and all the time they're doing all that stuff in the background and just how the whole thing, I think that comes along with colonialism and trying to destabilize Wakanda's government to get what they have.

And for all those years they did, they had that. They always had that technology and they never did anything against the world during that whole entire time. But now they know that Wakanda has it. Let's destroy it. Let's destabilize the government, let's take everything from them. And I was, one of the things I, that's why, in a way, I was rooting for Namor in the sense that yes, you and should join voices, forces and destroy everything, but not destroy everything, but you know, they fish should join forces.

Now when it comes to what's next or what I'm excited about, I mean, I'm not saying that I'm, if they bring anything, I'll watch it. But right now, I mean, I just feel they bring, I'm not really like, oh my gosh, I can't wait for the next one. I can't wait for the next thing or now, I mean, now Perry said that there, there's gonna be a TV show or something like that.

That's great. But I'm not really feeling like, oh! I'm not on my agency about any movie right now. So I can, and that might just be the place I am mentally wise. So I'm not really particularly like gungho about anything. Now, granted, if you're gonna make another movie, it better not be a Hawkeye or Falcon than make it a than make it a Black Panther. I would've rather see that than those two.

But I'm gonna have to say that, I mean, this move was good and they do make a Wakanda 3. I'm gonna see it just like I saw the first two. But at the same time, there's nothing really, I'm ex overly excited. I can't wait to the next one. I'm not feeling that, but I'm not feeling like that about anything right now.

So, but, it's funny cuz you mentioned Hawkeye and Falcon and my thing with when I first kind of, Before the hype happened in the first Black Panther movie, before all that hype, I was kind of like, wow, they're gonna do Black Panther? And Falcon was actually the first black [Marvel] superhero.

Y. M.: People were like, being all very pro-Black about Black Panther. And I was like, but Falcon came first, so I was having that kind of moment, but I quickly got over that, but you're right. If they do a Hawkeye movie, I don't think I'd be going to see that. But-

Staci: to have finished the series, so I'm just saying I don't wanna see a movie either.

Y. M.: Yeah. I, I'm not, yeah for that, but, that it is what it is. You know, part of it is always marketing and, how much money can we get for this? 

But for me I wanna really piggyback on what you were saying about colonialism, Staci, and about the exploitation of resources, and Perry about that first scene with Queen Ramonda, I said, yep. I said, this is really. The jewel, I guess, behind this movie. Like, this is the part that people are not gonna talk about, but this is so needed, especially in our context in our world today. If people going to see Black Panther and people going to see, oh, who's gonna be the next one?

Or whatever, and then they get this history lesson underneath it with na more and with, all of that underneath it, I'm like, job done for this movie. ? Because we really need that education. We really need it, not for me, but for everybody else that's getting these textbooks. But anyway, I, I could just keep going on that, but I won't. But that was the jewel for me. 

Romantic Mentions

Y. M.: The second thing, because this is not just the nerdy podcast, this is the Nerdy Romantics podcast. So, you know, Ms Romance writer is going to talk about how gorgeous M’Baku is, and I have, I love me a big dude like that.

But yes, I was all here for that and I was also all here to see Michael B. Jordan on the astral plane. Yes, thank you very much. I loved it, , but then there's also that kind of connection a little bit that Shuri and Namor kind of have before, things get all crazy when he's showing her, his world and stuff that he has to protect.

And, and I was kind of thinking, when you say queen, that's kind of how I was kind of seeing it. I was seeing like, yeah, that could happen. Like a queen and a king kind of thing going on there.

Staci: Okay. I thought that too. I mean, I know that wasn't gonna happen, but I was

Y. M.: Yeah, right. But

Staci: this is how we bring

Marcie: Yeah. I,

Staci: our two cultures with a marriage, a political marriage,

Marcie: I, I did, I did feel like they were building something too. Yeah. I.

Y. M.: Yeah, I was

Dana: I was scared they were, I didn't want them

Y. M.: no guys, Dana.

Dana: falling in.

Staci: Didn't,

Y. M.: no. It wasn't

Staci: them falling in love, love like now, but I, especially now with what he's done. But at the same time I was like, and this is the political will happen. Then we'll have aquatic Black Panther

Dana: Aw, that sucks.

Staci: and we'll,

Perry: It was a definite, yeah, they they definitely established a connection there. I I clocked out both times. I thought they did it really well. I, I agree with Dana. I'm glad they didn't go full out with it into full-blown on romance, but I did like the, the little hints and because Shuri's in a similar place to name more in that, where the whole, like she says , to Ramonda, I wanna burn down the world.

And if I think about my brother too much and Namor's in the exact same place. So I thought it was nice to establish that connection between them.

Y. M.: Yeah, yeah. I like the fact that it was like a, maybe a little bit of inkling of like, or whatever, but even more so, the fact that they have the connection, because again, it kind of goes along with the, the whole colonialism and everything like that, and the whole way that that divides people and it is so needed that these two cultures needed to actually unite to me.

And, by having that connection, it kind of facilitates that, uniting these cultures , and that kind of thing, and the positiveness that actually could come out of it, or burning the world down, as Staci says, that could come out of it too, but, whatever.

But yeah.

Perry: I just wanna mention too about that is I just realized that is a flip on a post-colonial narrative that usually happens, right? So like all the European countries, they leave Africa and the different African countries are fighting each other and they're not paying attention to what's happening with the rest of the world.

And even within, you know, different POC communities, right? The different, different, you know, Black communities and Hispanic communities turning on each other or different Asian communities turning on Asian communities, turning against them and all that kind of stuff going back and forth when they're not recognizing the real power struggles.

So for sure at the end to say we shouldn't be fighting each other, we should be uniting, I thought was a really good message too.

Y. M.: Yeah, exactly. Exactly what I'm trying to say there. Yeah. Because, the whole legacy of, to me, of colonialism , and all of that is division. And it, it's affected us so much and to, to see the coming together of cultures cultures who have more alike than, than they even realized, right?

You know, that was a little bit of a yay for me. 

Goodreads rating

Y. M.: But anyway, before we say goodbye we always do a star rating on all of our stuff that we review and again, as this is a reader focused podcast even though this is a movie, I'm using the Goodreads rating here and I wanna go around and see what, based on what you thought overall, what star rating would you give this?

So one star is, you didn't like it. Two stars. It was okay. Three stars. You did like it. Four stars, you really liked it. And five stars, It was amazing. And yes, you can give half stars if you wanna give half stars. So why don't we start with Staci, what would you rate this movie based on that?

Staci: Okay. Most definitely four stars .

Y. M.: Okay. Any particular reason why you just, but just for everything you said.

Staci: Cuz I really just it really probably exceeded my expectations for a sequel and it did. I think what they did with the story line about the things about should we replace the actor or not. Overall storyline and how it kept my attention for the whole entire time. Cause Marcie knows, I do take over my mother when it comes to movies I watch in the house.

So it kept my attention that still the whole time, entire time. And the second time, the second time watching it. And I just like going back to Wakanda. I mean, there are certain things. Yes. I wish we did more of and hopefully they'll do that in the TV show. They're gonna be doing that. But I think the story was well told and it considering you having to replace an actor that died and how to do that, they did in a great way.

I mean, I just think that he, they did it in such a way that yes, I, we missed him, but at the same time, I can see the franchise, franchise keeps going regardless of whether he's dead or not.

Y. M.: Okay. 

Staci: Also that feeling of being in with condos. Like it wasn't the same as the first one. I mean, we didn't, you know, get the shirts and everything, but the same time, you know, when I see them out there fighting everything, I'm just like, oh my gosh. Go, go, go. So it's a safe feeling. And then in.

Y. M.: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Corey, what about you? What star rating would you give it and why?

Corey: So I would give it three stars. I liked it, however, I don't think that it has replay value to me. I tried to watch it a second time and the whole time I just kept saying, this movie is too damn long. This movie was too damn long. And it was one of those where I just wanted to fast forward to the good parts.

I think my takeaway from the whole film is that I just appreciate Ryan Coogler did. I think I've said this multiple times on this podcast is that I feel like I just appreciate what Ryan Coogler did to allow us to mourn chat with Bozeman, also appreciate what he did, and then also what he had to do to overcome that challenge.

So I really appreciate that. I don't really care so much about the plot of this whole story, what was going on, but there are a lot of things that I did like about it. I love the visuals. I love, still love the actors. I feel like they, they brought to the table the same characteristics that they brought to the table from the first one.

I just wish them, some things could have been tightened up a little bit more. And some things may be written a little bit different in my, you know, in my eyes, but I'm not, I'm not the writer, right? I, it's, I have to appreciate what the writer and the director brought to the table. And, and I do appreciate what they did, but there's just some things that I would've changed. 

So I would probably give it a three star, and it's online with other sequels out there. You know, they're not as great as the first one. They're just, you know, they're okay. Now there are some bad sequels. This is not a bad sequel. And I would recommend it to those who are interested into what happens.

You know, next from the first film, or those who are invested in the Wakanda universe, you know, I would recommend it to those people, but I would say that this is a film that you can't, it doesn't stand alone on its own. You know, there, I have actually seen some sequels before I've seen the original and didn't feel like I needed to necessarily see the original to do that.

I feel like this film does hinge a lot off of the original film. And so, you know, for that reason alone and other little things, I'm gonna stick with three stars. I, I mean, I liked it, but it's just not that great.

Y. M.: Yeah. Okay. Dana, what about you? What's your star rating and why?

Dana: Okay, sure. So my star rating is a three. Like I said earlier I thought it was good. I liked it. I do wanna also say my star rating does not look into what was going on and the fact that we lost Chadwick Bozeman, I'm just talking about this movie by itself, what I thought when I watched it. So I gave it a three.

I won't say why, cuz I think y'all have heard a lot of our reasons why, and I don't wanna start up anything. But what I will say just cuz I know Staci mentioned it, is them going having a TV show, I'm actually very interested in that. Like, normally when somebody's like, oh, we're gonna turn a movie into a TV show, I'm like, oh Lord, who, you know, I, I'm not really excited.

But I think to me, I really loved MoonKnight and WandaVision. So I'm actually very excited to see what they do with Black Panther, cuz I feel like these Marvel TV shows, at least the ones that I've seen, I don't know what other ones. They've been really good. So I'm interested to see how that turns out. So I'm excited.

Y. M.: Okay, cool. Mary, what about you? What's your star rating and why?

Perry: I'm gonna go with a four. At the end of the first Black Panther, I really wanted to see how Wakanda would interact with the rest of the world. And I'm glad that we got a l a little bit of that. I would've liked to see more of that. And a, as other people have mentioned, it, it is a little bit long. You know, like we talked about, the Namor stuff drags a bit in the middle.

The, the RiRi stuff could have been cut down a little bit. So the movie does drag in places and that's the main reason why I'm knocking it down. If it was a tighter movie, it probably would've gone to four and a half, or maybe even a five. And for comparison's sake, the first Black Panther is definitely a five for me.

Y. M.: Okay. Marcie, what about you? What's your star rating and why?

Marcie: I'm going four and a quarter. I enjoyed it. I saw it twice in the movie theaters. I, I liked it for what it was. I actually wanted more RiRi. So I'm excited to see where that goes. But I enjoyed, I did enjoy visiting Namor's world and seeing something different and, and seeing the two connect. I did enjoy the way the way that the marvelous superhero part of the story evolved, as well as the nostalgic in in poignant parts of the film as well.

I, I, I was impressed by watching Shuri's journey. And again, I think that's one of those things where if you've ever been somebody who's had a loss that felt like that, then I think watching that play out I think was was really important to me and I think they handled that well. And so, yeah, I, I'm giving it four and a quarter for the poignancy, And cuz I enjoyed RiRi  all the time. She was on the screen. 

I had, I mean, it was, I, I had a good time watching And I didn't realize it was three hours until it was all over. So for me that, that, that'll give you a, a four or more.

Y. M.: Yeah. Yeah. And for me, I, I'm going to do two star ratings. And part of this is because I've been listening to all of you talk about it, and it's kind of changed what kind of made me think about this movie in two different ways. The first is, I'm giving it a four and a half for the movie's themes and and those internal things that like for instance, like Marcie was saying, how Shuri dealt with loss.

 I was actually hesitant about going to see this because of how that was gonna play out and, personally how I would feel about how that played out on screen. And yeah, I did cry, but I cry at teddy bears, so let's you know, that is, that is, it is what it is. But, but to see that, to see the way she dealt with that, that was really strong.

Of course, also, what I was really excited about and happy about, not excited about, because that would. Going into the movie I was excited about, but after I saw it, what I was really happy that they did was to show this whole this whole picture of colonialism, and all of that.

To have it be that kind of a, what I'm hoping will be , a learning experience and an educational experience for people who need that. Or for people who didn't know it before, you know, that's the, that was big for me. So for those reasons, it's four and a half for me.

As, also part of the whole four and a half was personally, the whole sequence, Chadwick in the Marvel letters and everything like that, it's how they incorporated that.

And we've talked about it here, how that was just like the most poignant and just like the best tribute that they could have done. And I love how they did that, as a marketing person, I love how they did that with their, with their logo, right? They used their logo to pay tribute to this.

That was a amazing to me. I really yeah, that, I was happy to see it. I and a lot of people, that when I went into the theater, which is why I'm glad y'all taught me into going to see it in the theater, but the people in the theater, that was one of those moments that they had, and it was one of those moments that, it's silent on screen and it's silent in the theater. And, it was amazing. It was like, it was almost kind of like , a spiritual kind of experience , at that point, so that's, that's the four and a half. 

But as a movie, as a superhero movie and and all that, the Marvel stuff, the nerdy stuff I'm gonna give it a three for that.

And to me it felt, the best parts were not, the reason why I went to the movie for, as a superhero movie, the best parts. Kind of transcending the whole superhero stuff, good guy, bad guy, does he have powers? Does she have powers? What are their powers? Let's see how that happens on screen.

Whatever it was, the things that give it the four and a half for me are like the beauty, and the thematic things, and the dramatic things that can happen, whether it's a Marvel movie or whether it's, the newest drama, that's done well out there, if that makes sense. But yeah, as a superhero movie, and if you're going into it, and this is just my opinion, again, I'm not a comic book nerd, but I am a superhero nerd.

But if you're going into it for the superhero, the action sequence, all of that stuff, I'm giving that part a three. It was good, but it wasn't the best thing I've ever seen. So that's where my rating is. 

And I am just so happy to actually talk about this movie with someone else. I love the fact that y'all came on and y'all talked about this movie and argued about it and I feel like we had such a good time. Agreed? Yes?

Staci: Yes, agree.

Marcie: I agree.

Corey: Thousand percent.

Y. M.: Oh, awesome. Awesome, awesome. So I just wanna say thank you for coming on and for talking with me about this and I can't wait until the next thing. Dana, I will say I agree with you on the TV shows as far as the TV shows go as far as the Marvel TV shows go, they are done very well.

Marcie: I agree.

Y. M.: they're, they're amazing. And you know, I wanna talk with y'all about some of these TV shows, so hopefully y'all come back and talk with me about these Marvel TV shows. So thank you for coming on everybody.

Marcie: Thank you for having us!

Staci: welcome.

Dana: Thanks!

Perry: Thank you.

Corey: Thank you.

Y. M.: So, that’s all for this episode. If you want to get our show notes in your inbox, please consider signing up for our Nerdy Romantics newsletter. The signup form is at the bottom of each page on our new website. Thank you for listening. [outro music fade out]

[And if you want to see me, my guests, and my guest co-hosts on video, please subscribe to my YouTube channel at youtube.com/@AuthorYMNelson]