Coaching Conversations with the AoEC
Coaching Conversations with the AoEC
Episode 10: Coaching for social impact - the handprint of benefit
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What does social change mean in today’s world and how does it relate to individual development through coaching?
How can coaches act as agents of social and systemic change? We look at how the scope of coaching can impact beyond the individual by touching whole organisations, communities and the world.
You can link with the host and guest panellists here:
George Warren, faculty at the AoEC - Host
Ana Paula Nacif PCC, Quantum Leap Coaching & Consultancy - panellist
Tracy Sinclair MCC, Coach Advancement by Tracy Sinclair - panellist
Useful links
Find out more about some of the resources mentioned in the discussion here along with some additional related content:
ICF Foundation - Coaching for Social Impact
ICF Foundation – Ignite - Engaging Coaching for Humanity and the Planet
Coaching for Social Impact Report (BACP)
Coaching Professional (Level 5) Apprenticeship training course
https://www.instituteforapprenticeships.org/apprenticeship-standards/coaching-professional-v1-0
Coachsters – coaching for young people
EMCC Social Responsibility Special Interest Group
Ecological and Climate-Conscious Coaching: A Companion Guide to Evolving Coaching Practice
Hello and welcome to another podcast conversation from the Academy of Executive Coaching. My name is George Warren, and I'm your host for today and a faculty member here at the AUEC. Today we are talking all things coaching for social impact, and we have two wonderful guests to take a deep dive into this beautiful and very important subject. And I'm joined by Anna Paolo Nassif of Quantum Leap Coaching and Consultancy and Tracy Sinclair of Coach Advancement. Well, welcome to you both. Hello, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_00Thank you for having me, Alice.
SPEAKER_01And it would be lovely to hear a bit about your journey here, what's keeping you busy and the work that you're doing at the moment. Tracy, perhaps we can start with you.
SPEAKER_02Yes, thank you, George. And it's lovely to be here with you, Anna, as well. So what's keeping me busy? Well, um, as is often the case with me, I have my what I might call my day job, which is the bit that pays the bills. And for me, that is um running my coach training school and also doing quite a lot of consultancy with organisations that want to inform leadership and culture through coaching. Um, and then when I'm not doing that, I'm working on developing my coaching with conscience initiative, which is a social impact initiative looking at bringing really good quality coaching to people who otherwise probably wouldn't be able to have access to it. Um, so they're the thief, they're the three areas that uh keep me very busy.
SPEAKER_01Lovely to hear. Thanks, Tracy. And and Anna, what about you?
SPEAKER_00Oh wow, yes. Well, thank you for having me here. Uh it's really nice to be here to talk about coaching for social impact. I have a few um uh strings to my ball, as it were. I'm a part-time academic and I um a senior lecture for the masters of um positive psychology and coaching psychology at UEL. So there's a part-time academic role where I do research, and part of my research is about coaching communities. And I have my my coaching um and training consultancy, and I work with very different clients. I work with clients in organizations, I do a lot of executive coaching. I'm a group coach specialist, I love working with groups, and I take groups to communities as well as to organizations, and I do a little bit of um group coaching training as well. Um, and my idea going from from the from the topic is that uh group coaching is uh one of the the really good uh coaching formats to take to communities and and to make an impact. Uh so that's some so and I also am also involved with um leadership development in the social sector.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. And I you spoke about the the benefits of and enjoyment of group coaching there. And what is it about group coaching you think that's so good for taking it into uh a wider social impact?
SPEAKER_00Uh there is the practical side of things that's a scalable and it's cost-effective. And then there is the kind of building community um for people who perhaps uh haven't got that sense of community or maybe feeling alone in their own issues and problems, and finding a place where they can share and feel that uh it normalizes their experience. And they, you know, most people go, ah, I'm so glad I'm not alone in this problem. I'm so glad to hear other people are experiencing the same thing. And apart from that, the the group then becomes a resource for the individuals, and the group itself becomes the the intervention that supports uh a people.
SPEAKER_01And one of the questions um I'm holding, um, Tracy, perhaps you could share your experiences is is to speak of that tension between a lot of folks coaching, a lot of executive coaches who coach one-to-one and then pay the bills, as I think you say. And then something more um socially conscious, socially minded tends to be an addition or a sort of side project, or or something that is uh engaging more for um a deeper value or purpose than than the bulk of the work. And perhaps you could just share your experiences and um your reflections on that.
SPEAKER_02It's interesting. You it's a great question that was just making me think about whether that's a good status quo or not to have. Um, because I think you're quite right that in many cases, any profession, not just coaching, when we think about that for social impact, it we can find ourselves going to that as an add-on or an extra, you know, if there's time, if there's energy. And I think that needs to change. And I do believe it is changing, but it needs to change perhaps a little bit more. And I think where we benefit in the coaching community is that we're working with a group of people who generally um have a profile of being very compassionate, very empathetic, and wanting to make a difference to human beings. And so, even though there are many coaches that do need to earn a living, of course, um, they want to make a contribution and so they will allocate a portion of their time to do this kind of work. And as we know from organisations um such as the ICF, we have an amount of our logging of our hours that is specifically dedicated and encouraged to do that kind of thing. So I think all of those things are very, very positive. We're encouraged to do it. Um our our our stereotypical profile lends itself to us doing that. And uh if we always have coaching initiatives as an add-on or a side hustle, as it as we might think about it, then is the impact ultimately of this work going to be limited to that? So I do think that um, and I I think we are moving in that direction, but I do think that there's there's more of a shift needed towards that kind of work being someone's primary focus and not just something that is done voluntarily or from a pro bono perspective. I I truly believe that we don't we can't necessarily change the world through volunteering, even though it's you know a wonderful gift that we bring. And I truly believe that there is enough money in the world somewhere, in some pockets or buckets, to fund uh social impact projects in a more primary way rather than as a a bolt-on, you know, when there's time.
SPEAKER_01It's really uh spiriting to hear that, Tracy. I'm in total agreement. And Anna, in terms of the changes that you'd like to see within the world of coaching to facilitate um a greater uh importance or prioritization of coaching that has a social impact, what what comes up for you?
SPEAKER_00I'd like just like to add to the to the previous question, if I may. I think that uh coaching has value, and I think a lot of the social impact uh projects that I a lot of the social impact projects I work on, I get paid for. Uh, it adds value. And I think the industry and the coaching bodies specifically should do a lot more to promote that value. There is more research that we need, but if you work in communities, uh I can't see why coaching is not one of the tools that is used in education, health, and housing, employment, and other sectors to support people. So in the UK where I am, and quite a lot of the work that I do for social impact is paid. It's not as well paid as you can expect as the corporate world work that we do if I'm working with exacting organizations. However, when we speak to um commissioners about coaching in those different settings, uh is helping them understand the value of it. So we need to do more. I think there is a space for pro bono work, but I don't see social impact as only as pro bono work at the moment. And I see it if I if I can extend a little bit, uh, working at different levels. I think you can work at a level of community, so demographic that wouldn't demographics that would not have access to coaching naturally. Uh, so the people who potentially cannot go and afford coaching and we take coaching to them as community projects. Uh, another level for me is the level of uh working for social leadership, so developing leaders in communities, so social leaders. Again, if you go to a I don't know, an investment bank, they probably spend millions of pounds in their leadership development. Everyone is well trained and has you know has the opportunity to grow. And so we need to take that to communities and those social leaders. And then there is the systemic change. So coaching having a role in changing the system. And that at that level, how whichever work we're doing, we could be doing coaching for social impact, whether we work for community organizations, investment bank, government, government agencies, not-for-profit organizations, then we still can fulfill that role uh in our day-to-day work. So I don't see it as, in my case, as a kind of a side a side thing is is completely integral to what I do.
SPEAKER_01And for those coaches that are listening, whether in the first few years of their practice or more experienced, who uh want to coach with a greater focus, with a greater predominance and importance of social impact. Perhaps we could hear from both of you, but Tracy, perhaps you could kick us off with what advice, what resources, uh what avenues are there uh out there to explore, to direct folks towards? While the the wider momentum for systemic change and the accrediting bodies and coach training changes that we want to see take place, what can coaches do now that want to get more involved?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I think there's a lot that can be done, and uh and ranging from pretty much all of the professional bodies at that level are now involved to a you know to significant levels, I think, in trying to bring awareness of the opportunities around coaching for social impact. Um, the ICF, for example, has a foundation that is specifically dedicated towards that, that has grown exponentially over the last three years. So, you know, all of the professional bodies I think have these things now. We also have things like um for coaches who are working in organisations, many organisations now have more of a focus on corporate social responsibility. So they could tap into perhaps some of their corporate clients to see how what their corporate clients are doing in that space and could they become involved, could they volunteer in that way? Um, there are many, many social impact projects that are, I see personally, advertised on social media now. And you know, I with some of the social impact work that I'm doing, I'm just looking at some of them, reaching out to them and saying, could you vet could you benefit from some coaching? You know, so I think we're just keeping our eyes and ears open and right down to um could you offer some coaching in your local school or via your local library, or just putting that something like that out onto social media or going to your local charity, you know, so ranging from larger systemic opportunities right down to what's within my own town, my own village, uh, and where how could I add value? I don't, I think every conversation is a ripple, isn't it? Every single coaching conversation we have is a ripple. So whether you're just involved in some coaching at your local library or your local school for teachers, or whether you are involved in a massive large-scale program, it all adds value. So I think there's plenty that people could do if they if they think about it and just look for those opportunities.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Anna.
SPEAKER_00Uh yes, so I I'm part of um uh a group called Coaching for Social Impact. And we anybody's welcome to join us. We meet every month and we talk about social impact. And uh um, and I last year I edited a report on coaching for social impact and with a lot of different examples of projects uh up and down the country and some international projects as well, uh, in different sectors, uh education, environment, social justice, employment, health, and uh the majority of them funded by um not-for-profit organizations or government agents and the statutory bodies. So that report can give people a real uh uh a flavor. Uh, of course, we I you know I wish we could just capture everything there is about cultural social impact. There's a lot more research that we need to do in this area. So that is a is a perhaps the starting point and joining the the group if if people feel that they um they are able and willing. Uh, I think people need to ask themselves the questions why they want to do this, what motivates them, what what gets their heart singing, what makes them excited about doing this kind of work, and then um finding the people doing this work, whether it's through as as Tracy said, corporate social responsibility or not-for-profit organizations in in your local area, and and sometimes it's helping those organizations to uh put together uh a business case for coaching and get funding from um grant-giving organizations or or or even statutory bodies. So a lot of the work that I do uh in communities in health is paid for uh by statutory bodies or grant-giving organizations and recognizing that the coaching is an added uh value to the service that they are giving to people with with specific needs. So sometimes it's partnering with those organizations and helping them understand the value that it can bring and make the business case to get that uh commissioned by by others. And of course, if you if you want to do pro bono work, is is there is plenty of opportunities out there for people to uh to make that difference and all the coaching bodies, as far as I understand, have um opportunities for people to get on board and and support, and I think it's really important. I think uh we talk about corporate social responsibility for organizations and individually in our own business, in my own business, I have a part of I promote a work that is part of being committed to to the communities I serve. So there is part of the work that I do that is is just that. So although I think that there is a massive need for a paradigm shift, uh so coaching in whichever shape or form is is paid for and funded properly, like other interventions, um, there are unfortunately communities and parts of the world where the funding is not going to be available, and then we need to make a decision whether we do that on a proposal basis and decide to help those communities. Um but yes, so there are there's plenty there, George, for people who are excited about this type of work. And the more people who get involved, the more we can share the value of it, and the more we can kind of push for a paradigm shift. So when we stay coaching for social impact, is is a is a is a uh an area of work that is well thought through and and recompensed for the value it brings. So the more people get involved, the better, I think.
SPEAKER_01Thank you both for the abundant uh pulse to wisdom there. And that certainly chimes with my own experience as well. And um, you know, I've in the last few years pivoted uh towards coaching in the um the second and third sector, and um very glad I did so. The the the question I had um that's bubbling up for me is around um you mentioned I think you may have both mentioned the word systemic, and uh and I'm wondering given the the access that coaches have to leaders and decision makers all around the world, as well as teams, as well as um future leaders, I'm wondering if we could uh speak now about uh any stretches that you'd like coaches to lean into with their clients, which open up uh a broader view, a a more systemic appreciation. And perhaps uh if you have any thoughts around coaches leaning into challenge and tension and accountability um with their coaching clients, which might help bring about this systemic change, this much-needed um uh re-evaluation of the importance of social consideration, social justice, and perhaps also an environmental accountability. What what would you say to coaches listening that want to lean into more challenge or provocation with their clients around social causes, but aren't really feeling comfortable they know-how or confident in the start to Anna, perhaps you could just kick us off.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um I think it's a is a great professional ethical uh question for coaches, and I think it is one that each individual needs to reflect upon whether they want to do to do that, whether they they want to bring that challenge to their clients. I think it's uh we we have this discussion often um as as professionals, uh, to you know, to what extent are we um tasked with, if you like, having an impact on those systemic uh changes and systemic challenges that are pervasive in society. And I think it depends, is that is that it depends on the person and and what type of work that you that you choose to do. So I'm involved a lot in in commercial uh organizations and cooperation with corporations with uh uh projects on inclusion, gender imbalance. So my my work is already geared up for those challenging conversations with people and asking them about that, because that's the work that they wanted to do already. Uh whereas the question that you're asking me potentially is that if you're working with a client who don't have who don't have that um clients who don't have that agenda, how much do you actually push to to bring about that social consciousness? And then I I have a big question, Mark, because is is it the job of our the co the coaches to actually bring about that that change uh or or not? And when is when is appropriate, when is that you you talk to people about um social inclusion, uh social mobility, uh gender inequalities, race, uh, you know, all the all those big uh topics in which are important, I think, for for everyone. Um so I'm I I think it's a really interesting question. I don't have a kind of a um black and white answer to that. Um and I think coaches make decisions about who they work with, what kind of clients they work with, and areas potentially already aligned to their values uh and and what they want to, what difference they want to make um to their clients, uh both individuals as well as uh systemically. Uh and I'd like to think that if you if you have access to leaders uh in organizations and teams, some of these questions will be part of our human condition. You know, we'll be talking about the workplace, we'll be talking about equity in the workplace, what does that look like for people? We're going to be talking about sense of belonging, we're gonna be talking about leadership and what you know, what kind of values uh their leadership has for that individual or that team. Um, I find it really hard to separate, and yet there is this bigger question mark question mark that if you work with an individual who is not that way inclined, do you pose the question? Um, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I mean, and for me it's not even posing a question. I, you know, um Tracy mentioned things like um environmental, social, um, sort of ESG goals. And there's something for me around some companies viewing uh DEI and and uh sustainable target as a necessary step. Um we're operating in an era of things like greenwashing, and I'm just wondering about the coaches' role in holding accountability when um leaders and decision makers within businesses. Tracy, I'm wondering what thoughts are bubbling up for you.
SPEAKER_02Lots of thoughts bubbling up because as Anna Paula says, this is not a binary uh yes or no kind of discussion. I think it's really complex. I I think there are some areas that we have to take care with and navigate carefully, as as you know, as you've both been sharing around the ethical considerations of us becoming more advocates of a particular stance. And you know, what is our role, what is our idea. Identity as practitioners. Are we coaches? Are we mentors? Are we politicians? Are we ambassadors for a particular cause? And I think you know each coach will have their own place in all of those areas. So I think it is potentially a little bit fraught with us taking care around really what is our role. However, I think there is a potentially an easy win here in something that is embedded in our competences increasingly, which is this idea of context. We're encouraged as coaches to meet our clients where they are at. And part of that means understanding our clients' context, which could include many, many things, such as their economic status, their social status, their ethnicity, their spiritual or religious background and roots, their sexuality, their gender identification, many, many, many ways that our client defines or senses and knows themselves, and therefore, and the multiple systems that our clients are part of. And our role as coaches is to try to be sensitive, respectful, and mindful of that, to write to for us to be aware that that context is there. And for me, because we also have competencies around evoking awareness for our clients, how could we use that philosophy of awareness to invite broader awareness for our clients around some of the systems that they operate in? And how does that or does that not align with their own values? So it's not that's not necessarily a direct overt way of me advocating for a particular social stance on anything, but it is a way I feel legitimately through coaching that we are helping ourselves and our clients to expand our awareness of certain social and systemic considerations. And then it really is, I think, a question also then of choice, choice for our clients to make to make their conclusions about things, but also choice for us. As coaches, we we can choose who we feel we can work with and who we can't. You know, we are not forced to work with people. So I think there are opportunities for how coaching itself and what coaching means has the capacity to expand our awareness of these things. And and with awareness comes choice. The question then is is do we uh push a certain choice? And and and you know, then then we get into is that my role?
SPEAKER_01Anna, anything to add?
SPEAKER_00No, I totally agree, and but there's something else that's uh coming up for me, which is um as an individual coach, I I don't feel accountable in that way, like Tracy saying, to push my client down a particular path. Um evoking awareness is a is a great way of putting it. I think that's that's definitely there. But um I'm thinking, how about the the coaching bodies? You know, because they they're not uh uh at the at the kind of um at the front end, the front line of coaching, but they represent uh um they represent us, they represent a profession, and and could they get more involved in actively involved in in some of the systemic issues and and some of the systemic issues that we kind of part of the problem, right? So it's not that we kind of with some of the systemic issues we're talking about are replicated within the coaching industry. And therefore, at that level, then there is there is something we can do. And I'm thinking uh you asked, can we challenge our clients? And I think can we challenge ourselves and can we put that challenge to some of our coaching bodies uh who could be doing better in some of those systemic issues? Uh and and if you think about some of the the representation around the world, different countries, uh how beautiful would be if there was a really concerted effort in in in you know in affecting some of those uh systemic changes that we talk about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're talking my language, Anna. Um as a I feel a strong connection to what you're saying and a strong energy. Um if we could perhaps daydream a little bit whether towards the accrediting bodies or more broadly to the future of coaching, perhaps we could explore what changes you like to see brought about and we can dust off our coaches' magic wands and ask, you know, if we could all wave a magic wand here related to uh a more socially conscious coaching, what changes would you like to see, Tracy, in in whether it's coach training, coach accreditation, or or or the coaching world more broadly?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think there are definitely some changes that we could make. It would be wonderful if coach training could more overtly include some aspects of social impact where coaching is concerned. I I still find personally that many people come to train with me as a for coaching, who are looking to then provide executive coaching into some into some organisations. And I'm not in any way decrying the benefit of that. So I think awareness, raising the awareness of the potential applications for coaching at all stages, whether it's you know through someone's membership of a professional body, through their coach training school, at every touch point that we might have. I think if we could do more to demonstrate and share what are the potential applications of this work, I think we can often niche things. Like a lot of people will come to me with very simple questions of Well, is when I've when I've trained with you, will I be an executive coach or a life coach? As though they're two completely different domains. And yet actually it's the same thing, it's about context again. So I think there's a lot more that we could do at many levels to actually really demonstrate not just what coaching is, but what its ultimate potential is for contextual application. For me, I've started thinking about coaching now as a communication skill. I mean, I don't talk about coaching per se quite a lot anymore. I'm thinking now that this is this is a way of engaging with myself and other people that is valuable to anyone in any context. So I think opening up the awareness of that is you know is is could be a very good start.
SPEAKER_01Anna.
SPEAKER_00Yes, um, I agree. And I think that uh in our uh role as educators, perhaps um amplify their understanding of coaching in different contexts and how important it is, and and gather the evidence and and and speak the language of uh those people who will be commissioning coaching in communities as opposed to organizations. There is a focus on organization, of course. And of course, Tracy, when you say that that and it like people wanting to be an executive coach, uh part of me thinks I've trained 20 years ago, or nearly 20 years ago, where everything was coaching for performance, and coaching was the thing that just you know the top execs would get and no one else would. Now a lot more people are having access to it, but there is also uh something around economics. People want to, if you're gonna you have to make a living, right? So you think, well, if I work for organizations, I'll get paid, if I work for communities, I don't, then there is that decision to make. And I think if you can change that paradigm, then people legitimately will think, well, where do I want to work? And given is is that given that they won't be making as much money um in communities, but actually they they it it doesn't need to be uh a so great a gap that it stops people from working in the environments in which they want to work. There should not be a barrier. Uh, people should be able to say, oh, I will like to coach in education, I want to go into the health service, I want to go in communities and help engagement and belonging, I want to go and work with disadvantaged communities, I want to go and work with women, uh um survivors of domestic violence, and be able to actually do the work and see that as the value. And of course, for the people carrying out that those projects, that they see coaching as as a go-to intervention. So there is a training um aspect there, so people are more aware of that. And I think there is an education aspect for commissions in all these different environments where we can talk about coaching. And I can see I see that more and more in the in the places I work, so people understand coaching a lot a lot more now, and they're bringing them into their projects. Um, and I think if you think about the magic, um the magic one that you've mentioned, I think there are some challenges that I think we also need to address, which is we need to make sure that we work ethically and we don't become part of the problem. We don't perpetuate the problem. Um, so for example, I think we can get really enthusiastic. Well, I can, I can certainly talk about myself going and and um and thinking coaching can support people, they can give them agency, empowerment, that sense of you know being able to do something. Uh, however, we need to be really mindful of the context and the limitations that those people are encountering their day to day. So we don't become the person say, oh, actually, if you want to be well, is your responsibility as a person. It can do everything you can to improve your health and well-being. When you full well know, when you look at the context, that's not true. There are factors that impact people's health and well-being which are beyond their control. So I think that is one of the biggest challenges for me ethically in my becoming part of the problem, in my perpetuating a view that individuals can do whatever they can when, in fact, it's so obvious that there are some social, economic, and other barriers uh which are beyond their uh their influence and their impact. And I think this is really, really important. If we are to amplify and expand this work, um, we need to have conversations around perhaps some of the philosophies that we're using for coaching and whether they they are suitable for for some communities, or what we need to also challenge ourselves in our perception of what coaching is and what what it isn't, and the and our limitations as well. Is it something that's always always plays in my mind? You know, am I am I helping here or am I just becoming part of the problem and perpetuating some of the systemic issues and injustice that I see uh daily?
SPEAKER_01And one of the tensions I think we're arriving at in hearing you speak, Anna, is this sense that uh traditionally in its in its what 30 years or so going from performance coaching with a focus on growth and outcomes and high performance. We are in an era of a climate crisis, a fuel crisis here in the UK, uh um economic crisis, uh cost of living crisis, uh an era of systemic racism as well. And these could all be collated together in a in a polycrisis or a meta-crisis, because it's all connected and all of the things are inextricably connected. And I'm just wondering out loud if if this is an opportunity for us to a go deeper into the ethics of of what coaching means in 2023 and beyond, but also uh potentially really re-evaluate this idea that coaching has to be non-directive, that coaches don't have an agenda, that coaches need to always follow the client's agenda. I I'm wondering out loud, and I'd love to hear some thoughts from you around whether the purpose or the philosophy or the definition of coaching needs to perhaps evolve a little bit to attend to our role in a multi-layered unfolding crisis.
SPEAKER_02I I would agree with all of those things that you said, and I think it is a perfect storm almost of some risks and pitfalls that we have to be careful of and navigate, ethics being one of them, and a huge opportunity for coaching to really blossom and evolve into something that really does meet a human need. There's a balancing act, isn't there, between, on the one hand, keeping at least to some level the integrity of what we know coaching to be in terms of how it adds value to someone versus what kind of vocabulary we use to articulate and define it. Because once we start using that vocabulary, it puts it in a particular box, and then we start to get boundaries and we have to navigate those boundaries. So I do think that there is a huge opportunity here for coaching to evolve and to blossom and to come into its own. And I feel that, albeit though it's an unfortunate state of affairs that we are experiencing in the world in many, many ways, coaching is coming into its own almost because of that in a way. Um I I fundamentally believe that coaching is part of society's solution. And I think that it's very important that we do take care with the ethics, that we do keep that very, very highly on our agenda because the integrity of our profession is paramount, and that we are also open to think about how is this entity, this way of working called coaching, how is it evolving and morphing and what and what needs to evolve in order to meet that change in the world? Because I think we are on the cusp of a huge opportunity for coaching to really add value in a way that we would not imagine. You know, if we go to that magic perfect world again, you know, I think that we talk about coaching being part, an integral part of a society that is thriving. There are many aspects of our society right now that are not thriving. And I feel that coaching could make an enormous difference. So I think there's a balancing act between keeping our minds very open and creative as to what it could be, and also really holding against that the rigour of the integrity and the ethics to keep an eye on. How are we moving forwards?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, Tracy. Can I just add something to that? Because another thing that comes to mind uh is some perhaps unhelpful language that we use and the rigidity of some of our models. Uh, and one thing that comes to my mind is if I agree with Tracy that coaching can be instrumental in addressing some of this really um intractable societal issues that we have. And and yet we we look at coaching it from a very westernized individualistic perspective, individuals going for their what they want, fulfilling their potential. And what does that mean uh leaving bodies behind as long as you can fulfill your potential? Does that mean um flourishing with your community and others? And there are other ways of looking at coaching that becomes a lot more collective, and I think we haven't explored that um sufficiently in this part of the world uh to even consider that uh coaching can be something that's not just so individualistic and can be collective and can be used for societal changes in a very positive way. Uh again, there's another change in paradigm because where coaching comes from. And one of the critiques that we have of coaching, that you know, it's all very me, me, me. Uh, what about me? What goals do I have? What do I want to achieve? Whereas we can, you know, we start asking questions that perhaps are not so uh individualistic. And also there is a, you know, there is a um a downside to that, that we all observe in organizations specifically, uh, you know, with overwhelm, overwork, burnout. Uh, and that is uh that is the the really downside of me, me, me fulfilling my potential and going higher and higher and higher and never stopping to take a breath, or or to to actually ask questions about what what I really value in life. Um so I think that the opportunities are there, but it does require a I think it requires a paradigm shift. Uh it would take it would take time, and and uh and also I think it requires integrity and honesty about who we are as coaches, that I I'm not neutral. I I live in a particular country in a particular time. I I had a specific type of education, I have my heritage, so I cannot be seen as just this kind of devoid of anything person who goes in to support. You know, I see coaching as a real alliance and a thinking space, and in that space, I'm in that space. I bring myself to that space. I'm not holding a space separate from me, from my identity, in a sort of in a glass wall that my client is there. Um bringing myself to it in the way I speak, in the way I am, and in everything. Um and I think that's something that perhaps we need to revisit, especially when we're training coaches, that how do we negotiate that ethical space whilst we're bringing ourselves into it? Um, and the other perhaps last thought on that is that when you work in communities, this becomes so, so, so important. Because there might be at some level a kind of a savior complex. You know, I go in these communities and I help these people who wouldn't otherwise have access to coaching, and I think they should have, you know, so is their part of me. I have to be really mindful that I am truly having that equal alliance and partnership with those communities and recognizing some of the challenges in that because I have no way to know what it's like to be them. I don't have the same narrative, the same experience. So, how how do I truly meet them where they are without making judgments about other other spaces that I cannot inhabit? You know, I don't really know what it's like to you know be a survival of domestic violence, to live with a uh a long-term condition, to be in a state in a in a in a place where I have to go to a food bank to feed my family. So when I meet those people, I have to be really mindful that I am truly looking at them as equal. And that's another challenge. And that's why I think we need to bring ourselves in, because otherwise it becomes quite hard to do that. If I if I step so far away from from this, I I have to come in with my empathy, with my not knowing, or like so I can perhaps, just perhaps, create a space that that it does feel um joint and and and a true alliance that I don't become the professional parachuting in amongst many others, in many cases. It's not straightforward.
SPEAKER_02Which is something, just to add to that, something that also needs to change around the profession of coaching, because in a way, if you look at the demographics and the profile of coaching as a profession, it's not always equal. If you look at the the kinds of people that currently have access or traditionally have access to coaching, and also the demographic of the people who are typically coaches, that partnering isn't there from the beginning. That equality or equity, if you like, isn't there from the beginning. And so I think that is a paradigm shift, you know, building and agreeing, Anna, with what you were saying, is we also need to look at our our the current definition, not just of coaching, but of us as professionals and practitioners in that space. Um, because otherwise we're already starting from some kind of mismatch platform, psychologically, emotionally, socially, whatever that might be. And we need to we we need to be able to create that equal space.
SPEAKER_00It's so true, isn't it? When we look at the um the very limited uh demographic of coaching and coaching training. Um
SPEAKER_01who who are who are training but but we know the barriers i mean it's not cheap to train as coaches uh uh as a lifelong learner uh i spent quite a lot of money over the last decades just training and learning and topping it up and uh and and that business itself is a is a barrier you know how you get people from different backgrounds to to join um our community and learn and get interested um in in coaching when you know there are no opportunities i mean just the training itself and education is a is a is a real problem um yeah it'll be interesting i don't know if there is i don't know if you know if there are any kind of a statistics that kind of look at our demographics collectively across different countries or uh what I do know is that when I in the in the very few occasions I've been part of conferences where you can see how many there's more of a a presence of Europe and and the US as opposed to other countries but even then but even if you look at countries is specifically who are those people training and working as coaches uh and how can we widen the access to to that training and of course as well one place my mind goes is the is the predominance of the English language and of course language shapes how we think and as coaching has been and coach training and coach competencies have been exported around the world there is a danger of a very uh Anglo or US centric style of coaching being taught and trained and adopted in in um in cultures at the cost of uh as you mentioned and a sort of very beautiful and diverse and very profoundly different ways of thinking and ways of speaking and and I think maybe just to to offer a a slight counter to to balance this a little bit is I don't think I think we've we're making a start you know I don't think we are in a place where none of this is is is there um at least from the experience I have in the various systems that I'm uh lucky to be a part of I see change you know I do see changes in that demographic I do see changes in language I do see changes in in equity and accessibility so it's not that it's that we've not done anything I think there is there are threads starting for me it's about really putting energy behind that so that we can accelerate because things are changing at such a pace as we know in our world and we need to be responsive to that.
SPEAKER_02So I think it's it's really about seeing the opportunity and putting you know priority and energy into accelerating some of these some of this evolution uh of of how of how coaching could really come into its own.
SPEAKER_00Yes I agree Tracy is not sufficient by any stretch of imagination but I'm thinking about coaching training is specifically and and is being widespread more more widespread than before especially in in organizations and I'm talking about community organizations or government bodies for example uh NHS training their staff in coaching so they can go off and work with their communities or work with their staff. But I'm not quite sure if those people are actually part of um our coaching bodies for example I don't know because usually the the this type of coaching training is an apprenticeship. So there is a coaching apprenticeship nationally in the UK and it's a level five apprenticeship that organizations can roll out for their people. So there is in that sense is a lot more accessible than any coaching training or doing a master's in coaching that would cost a lot more.
SPEAKER_01And of course it's being paid by the organization which means that they're getting people who perhaps would not have the means to pay but actually they're being trained and they're working uh so perhaps we don't know as much about about that in terms of demographic that that would help us have a have a snapshot of where we are uh as a as a profession and because we've got so many different bodies doing different things and uh you know we work in isolation in little silos and you know it's difficult enough to to keep up with all the different initiatives of all the different coaching bodies so perhaps there's also a uh if you wanted to change the paradigm and do and and effect some systemic changes that the coaching bodies potentially should look at working together in those in those issues and join forces and and have a have a good uh a good reflection time with themselves and thinking we can do this come on we can we can work together uh otherwise it it it remains really fractured it's really difficult fragmented to to get a really good picture and as we start to come to the close of the conversation today it would be lovely to hear from you both what you'd like to say to our listeners um by way of closing perhaps an encouragement or an offer or a challenge Anna you know if if people have even the slight curiosity about what it's like to work um as as coaches in in different settings and social uh contexts go for it is an amazing is amazing work is very rewarding as we'll be we'll be talking it does it's with it's tensions and challenges and and and everything but it is amazing work so uh and I I'd say find something that you're really passionate about and align to your values and and give it a try.
SPEAKER_00I do believe that whatever gift people have they can share you know so share whatever gift you have with your local community internationally with whichever shape or form uh and and get together find people who are interested in the same things as you are because there are coaches communities organizations doing a lot of this work yeah and uh it will find your own community that will really um welcome you and help you grow and learn so that's yeah go for it thanks Anna Tracy yeah I mean I would wholeheartedly agree with Anna and um my call out would be perhaps even to a particular part of our demographic which is to young people where I have a real area of interest.
SPEAKER_02Many many people come to coaching later on in their career as a third second third or even fourth iteration of their pathway and I'd love to see people coming into this space earlier so that we can really have this this choice of a profession being a first career and not necessarily a third career. So my particular call out would be to young people uh how could this actually be your primary career? Because as Anna said there are many many many avenues you could take and it's incredibly rewarding and stimulating.
SPEAKER_01I can suddenly attest to that Tracy we've we've all got big smiles on our faces. Tracy Anna thank you both so much for uh another conversation with the AWC and I've really greatly appreciated all that you've had to share in this conversation.
SPEAKER_02Thank you thank you