Episode 10: Coaching for social impact - the handprint of benefit

What does social change mean in today’s world and how does it relate to individual development through coaching?

How can coaches act as agents of social and systemic change? We look at how the scope of coaching can impact beyond the individual by touching whole organisations, communities and the world.

You can link with the host and guest panellists here:

George Warren, faculty at the AoEC - Host
Ana Paula Nacif PCC, Quantum Leap Coaching & Consultancy - panellist
Tracy Sinclair MCC, Coach Advancement by Tracy Sinclair - panellist

Useful links

Find out more about some of the resources mentioned in the discussion here along with some additional related content:

Coaching with Conscience 

ICF Foundation - Coaching for Social Impact 

ICF Foundation – Ignite - Engaging Coaching for Humanity and the Planet 

Coaching for Social Impact 

Coaching for Social Impact Report (BACP) 

Coaching Professional (Level 5) Apprenticeship training course 

https://www.instituteforapprenticeships.org/apprenticeship-standards/coaching-professional-v1-0

Coachsters – coaching for young people 

EMCC Social Responsibility 

EMCC Social Responsibility Special Interest Group

Humanitarian Coaching Network 

Climate Coaching Alliance 

Ecological and Climate-Conscious Coaching: A Companion Guide to Evolving Coaching Practice 

Coaching for Social Change by Hany Shoukry 

Transcript

George 0:06

Hello and welcome to another podcast conversation from the Academy of Executive Coaching. My name is George Warren, and I'm your host for today and a faculty member here at the AoEC. Today we are talking all things coaching for social impact, and we have two wonderful guests to take a deep dive into this beautiful and very important subject. And I'm joined by Ana Paula Nacif of Quantum Leap Coaching and Consultancy and Tracy Sinclair of Coach Advancement. Well, welcome to you both. Hello, how are you doing?

Both guests 0:40

Thank you for having me, Alice.

George 0:43

And it would be lovely to hear a bit about your journey here, what's keeping you busy and the work that you're doing at the moment. Tracy, perhaps we can start with you.

Tracy 0:51

Yes, thank you, George. And it's lovely to be here with you, Ana, as well. So what's keeping me busy? Well, as is often the case with me, I have my what I might call my day job, which is the bit that pays the bills. And for me, that is running my coach training school and also doing quite a lot of consultancy with organisations that want to inform leadership and culture through coaching. And then when I'm not doing that, I'm working on developing my coaching with conscience initiative, which is a social impact initiative looking at bringing really good quality coaching to people who otherwise probably wouldn't be able to have access to it. So they're the three areas that keep me very busy.

George 1:43

Lovely to hear. Thanks, Tracy. And Ana, what about you?

Ana 1:47

Oh wow, yes. Well, thank you for having me here. It's really nice to be here to talk about coaching for social impact. I have a few strings to my bow, as it were. I'm a part-time academic and I am a senior lecture for the masters of positive psychology and coaching psychology at UEL. So there's a part-time academic role where I do research, and part of my research is about coaching communities. And I have my coaching and training consultancy, and I work with very different clients. I work with clients in organisations, I do a lot of executive coaching. I'm a group coach specialist, I love working with groups, and I take groups to communities as well as to organisations, and I do a little bit of group coaching training as well. And my idea going from from the topic is that group coaching is one of the really good coaching formats to take to communities and and to make an impact. I am also involved with leadership development in the social sector.

George 2:56

Thank you. And you spoke about the benefits of and enjoyment of group coaching there. And what is it about group coaching you think that's so good for taking it into a wider social impact?

Ana 3:08

There is the practical side of things that's a scalable and it's cost-effective. And then there is the kind of building community for people who perhaps haven't got that sense of community or maybe feeling alone in their own issues and problems, and finding a place where they can share and feel that it normalises their experience. And most people go, ah, I'm so glad I'm not alone in this problem. I'm so glad to hear other people are experiencing the same thing. And apart from that, the group then becomes a resource for the individuals, and the group itself becomes intervention that supports people.

George 3:47

And one of the questions I'm holding, Tracy, perhaps you could share your experiences is to speak of that tension between a lot of folks coaching, a lot of executive coaches who coach one-to-one and then pay the bills, as I think you say. And then something more socially conscious, socially minded tends to be an addition or a sort of side project, or something that is engaging more for a deeper value or purpose than the bulk of the work. And perhaps you could just share your experiences and your reflections on that.

Tracy 4:27

It's interesting. It's a great question that was just making me think about whether that's a good status quo or not to have. Because I think you're quite right that in many cases, any profession, not just coaching, when we think about that for social impact, it we can find ourselves going to that as an add-on or an extra, you know, if there's time, if there's energy. And I think that needs to change. And I do believe it is changing, but it needs to change perhaps a little bit more. And I think where we benefit in the coaching community is that we're working with a group of people who generally have a profile of being very compassionate, very empathetic, and wanting to make a difference to human beings. And so, even though there are many coaches that do need to earn a living, of course, they want to make a contribution and so they will allocate a portion of their time to do this kind of work. And as we know from organisations such as the ICF, we have an amount of our logging of our hours that is specifically dedicated and encouraged to do that kind of thing. So I think all of those things are very, very positive. We're encouraged to do it. Our stereotypical profile lends itself to us doing that. And if we always have coaching initiatives as an add-on or a side hustle, as we might think about it, then is the impact ultimately of this work going to be limited to that? So I do think that we are moving in that direction, but I do think that there's more of a shift needed towards that kind of work being someone's primary focus and not just something that is done voluntarily or from a pro bono perspective. I truly believe that we don't we can't necessarily change the world through volunteering, even though it's you know a wonderful gift that we bring. And I truly believe that there is enough money in the world somewhere, in some pockets or buckets, to fund social impact projects in a more primary way rather than as a bolt-on, you know, when there's time.

George 6:58

It's really spiriting to hear that, Tracy. I'm in total agreement. And Ana, in terms of the changes that you'd like to see within the world of coaching to facilitate a greater importance or prioritisation of coaching that has a social impact, what comes up for you?

Ana 7:16

I'd like just like to add to the previous question, if I may. I think that coaching has value, and I think a lot of the social impact projects that I work on, I get paid for it adds value. And I think the industry and the coaching bodies specifically should do a lot more to promote that value. There is more research that we need, but if you work in communities, I can't see why coaching is not one of the tools that is used in education, health, and housing, employment, and other sectors to support people. So in the UK where I am, and quite a lot of the work that I do for social impact is paid. It's not as well paid as you can expect as the corporate world work that we do if I'm working with exacting organisations. However, when we speak to commissioners about coaching in those different settings, is helping them understand the value of it. So we need to do more. I think there is a space for pro bono work, but I don't see social impact as only as pro bono work at the moment. And I see it, if I can extend a little bit, working at different levels. I think you can work at a level of community, so demographic that wouldn't demographics that would not have access to coaching naturally. So the people who potentially cannot go and afford coaching and we take coaching to them as community projects. Another level for me is the level of working for social leadership, so developing leaders in communities, so social leaders. Again, if you go to an investment bank, they probably spend millions of pounds in their leadership development. Everyone is well trained and has the opportunity to grow. And so we need to take that to communities and those social leaders. And then there is the systemic change. So coaching having a role in changing the system. And that at that level, how whichever work we're doing, we could be doing coaching for social impact, whether we work for community organisations, investment bank, government, government agencies, not-for-profit organisations, then we still can fulfill that role in our day-to-day work. So I don't see it as, in my case, as a kind of side thing it's completely integral to what I do.

George 9:46

And for those coaches that are listening, whether in the first few years of their practice or more experienced, who want to coach with a greater focus, with a greater predominance and importance of social impact. Perhaps we could hear from both of you, but Tracy, perhaps you could kick us off with what advice, what resources, what avenues are there out there to explore, to direct folks towards? While the the wider momentum for systemic change and the accrediting bodies and coach training changes that we want to see take place, what can coaches do now that want to get more involved?

Tracy 10:22

Well, I think there's a lot that can be done, and ranging from pretty much all of the professional bodies at that level are now involved to you know to significant levels, I think, in trying to bring awareness of the opportunities around coaching for social impact. The ICF, for example, has a foundation that is specifically dedicated towards that, that has grown exponentially over the last three years. So, you know, all of the professional bodies I think have these things now. We also have things for coaches who are working in organisations, many organisations now have more of a focus on corporate social responsibility. So they could tap into perhaps some of their corporate clients to see what their corporate clients are doing in that space and could they become involved, could they volunteer in that way? There are many, many social impact projects that are, I see personally, advertised on social media now. And you know, I with some of the social impact work that I'm doing, I'm just looking at some of them, reaching out to them and saying, could you benefit from some coaching? You know, so I think we're just keeping our eyes and ears open and right down to could you offer some coaching in your local school or via your local library, or just putting that something like that out onto social media or going to your local charity , so ranging from larger systemic opportunities right down to what's within my own town, my own village, and where how could I add value? I think every conversation is a ripple, isn't it? Every single coaching conversation we have is a ripple. So whether you're just involved in some coaching at your local library or your local school for teachers, or whether you are involved in a massive large-scale programme, it all adds value. So I think there's plenty that people could do if they if they think about it and just look for those opportunities.

George 12:38

Thank you, Ana?

Ana 12:40

Yes, so I'm part of a group called Coaching for Social Impact. And anybody's welcome to join us. We meet every month and we talk about social impact. And last year I edited a report on coaching for social impact and with a lot of different examples of projects up and down the country and some international projects as well, in different sectors, education, environment, social justice, employment, health, and the majority of them funded by not-for-profit organisations or government agents and the statutory bodies. So that report can give people a real flavor. Of course, I wish we could just capture everything there is about cultural social impact. There's a lot more research that we need to do in this area. So that is perhaps the starting point and joining the the group if if people feel that they are able and willing. I think people need to ask themselves the questions why they want to do this, what motivates them, what gets their heart singing, what makes them excited about doing this kind of work, and then finding the people doing this work, whether it's through as as Tracy said, corporate social responsibility or not-for-profit organisations in your local area, and and sometimes it's helping those organisations to put together a business case for coaching and get funding from grant-giving organisations or even statutory bodies. So a lot of the work that I do in communities in health is paid for by statutory bodies or grant-giving organisations and recognising that the coaching is an added value to the service that they are giving to people with specific needs. So sometimes it's partnering with those organisations and helping them understand the value that it can bring and make the business case to get that commissioned by others. And of course, if you want to do pro bono work, is there is plenty of opportunities out there for people to make that difference and all the coaching bodies, as far as I understand, have opportunities for people to get on board and and support, and I think it's really important. I think we talk about corporate social responsibility for organisations and individually in our own business, in my own business, I have a part of I promote a work that is part of being committed to the communities I serve. So there is part of the work that I do that is is just that. So although I think that there is a massive need for a paradigm shift, so coaching in whichever shape or form is paid for and funded properly, like other interventions, there are unfortunately communities and parts of the world where the funding is not going to be available, and then we need to make a decision whether we do that on a proposal basis and decide to help those communities. But yes, so there's plenty there, George, for people who are excited about this type of work. And the more people who get involved, the more we can share the value of it, and the more we can kind of push for a paradigm shift. So when we stay coaching for social impact, it is an area of work that is well thought through and and recompensed for the value it brings. So the more people get involved, the better, I think.

George 16:18

Thank you both for the abundant pearls to wisdom there. And that certainly chimes with my own experience as well. And I've in the last few years pivoted towards coaching in the second and third sector, and very glad I did so. The question I had that's bubbling up for me is around you mentioned I think you may have both mentioned the word systemic, and I'm wondering given the the access that coaches have to leaders and decision makers all around the world, as well as teams, as well as future leaders, I'm wondering if we could speak now about any stretches that you'd like coaches to lean into with their clients, which open up a broader view, a a more systemic appreciation. And perhaps if you have any thoughts around coaches leaning into challenge and tension and accountability with their coaching clients, which might help bring about this systemic change, this much-needed re-evaluation of the importance of social consideration, social justice, and perhaps also an environmental accountability. What would you say to coaches listening that want to lean into more challenge or provocation with their clients around social causes, but aren't really feeling comfortable they know-how or confident in the start to Ana, perhaps you could just kick us off.

Ana 17:49

Yeah. I think it's a great professional ethical question for coaches, and I think it is one that each individual needs to reflect upon whether they want to do that, whether they want to bring that challenge to their clients. I think we we have this discussion often as professionals, to what extent are we tasked with, if you like, having an impact on those systemic changes and systemic challenges that are pervasive in society. And I think it depends, is that it depends on the person and and what type of work that you choose to do. So I'm involved a lot in commercial organisations and cooperation with corporations with projects on inclusion, gender imbalance. So my work is already geared up for those challenging conversations with people and asking them about that, because that's the work that they wanted to do already. Whereas the question that you're asking me potentially is that if you're working with a client who don't have that clients who don't have that agenda, how much do you actually push to to bring about that social consciousness? And then I have a big question mark, because is it the job of the coaches to actually bring about that change or or not? And when is appropriate, when is that you talk to people about social inclusion, social mobility, gender inequalities, race, you know, all those big topics in which are important, I think, for everyone. So I think it's a really interesting question. I don't have a kind of black and white answer to that. I think coaches make decisions about who they work with, what kind of clients they work with, and areas potentially already aligned to their values and what difference they want to make to their clients, both individuals as well as systemically. I'd like to think that if you have access to leaders in organisations and teams, some of these questions will be part of our human condition. You know, we'll be talking about the workplace, we'll be talking about equity in the workplace, what does that look like for people? We're going to be talking about sense of belonging, we're going to be talking about leadership and what you know, what kind of values their leadership has for that individual or that team. I find it really hard to separate, and yet there is this bigger question mark question mark that if you work with an individual who is not that way inclined, do you pose the question? I don't know.

George 20:52

Yeah and for me it's not even posing a question. Tracy mentioned things like environmental, social, sort of ESG goals. And there's something for me around some companies viewing DEI and sustainable targets as a necessary step. We're operating in an era of things like greenwashing, and I'm just wondering about the coaches' role in holding accountability when leaders and decision makers within businesses. Tracy, I'm wondering what thoughts are bubbling up for you.

Tracy 21:28

Lots of thoughts bubbling up because as Ana Paula says, this is not a binary yes or no kind of discussion. I think it's really complex. I think there are some areas that we have to take care with and navigate carefully, as you know, as you've both been sharing around the ethical considerations of us becoming more advocates of a particular stance. And you know, what is our role, what is our idea. Identity as practitioners. Are we coaches? Are we mentors? Are we politicians? Are we ambassadors for a particular cause? And I think each coach will have their own place in all of those areas. So I think it is potentially a little bit fraught with us taking care around really what is our role. However, I think there is a potentially an easy win here in something that is embedded in our competences increasingly, which is this idea of context. We're encouraged as coaches to meet our clients where they are at. And part of that means understanding our clients' context, which could include many, many things, such as their economic status, their social status, their ethnicity, their spiritual or religious background and roots, their sexuality, their gender identification, many, many, many ways that our client defines or senses and knows themselves, and therefore, and the multiple systems that our clients are part of. And our role as coaches is to try to be sensitive, respectful, and mindful of that, for us to be aware that that context is there. And for me, because we also have competencies around evoking awareness for our clients, how could we use that philosophy of awareness to invite broader awareness for our clients around some of the systems that they operate in? And how does that or does that not align with their own values? So it's not that's not necessarily a direct overt way of me advocating for a particular social stance on anything, but it is a way I feel legitimately through coaching that we are helping ourselves and our clients to expand our awareness of certain social and systemic considerations. And then it really is, I think, a question also then of choice, choice for our clients to make to make their conclusions about things, but also choice for us. As coaches, we we can choose who we feel we can work with and who we can't. You know, we are not forced to work with people. So I think there are opportunities for how coaching itself and what coaching means has the capacity to expand our awareness of these things. And with awareness comes choice. The question then is is do we push a certain choice? And then we get into is that my role?

George 25:13

Ana, anything to add?

Ana 25:15

No, I totally agree, but there's something else that's coming up for me, which is as an individual coach, I don't feel accountable in that way, like Tracy saying, to push my client down a particular path. Evoking awareness is a great way of putting it. I think that's definitely there. But I'm thinking, how about the coaching bodies? You know, because they're not at the kind of front end, the front line of coaching, but they represent us, they represent a profession, and could they get more actively involved in some of the systemic issues and some of the systemic issues that are part of the problem, right? So it's not that we kind of with some of the systemic issues we're talking about are replicated within the coaching industry. And therefore, at that level, then there is something we can do. And I'm thinking you asked, can we challenge our clients? And I think can we challenge ourselves and can we put that challenge to some of our coaching bodies who could be doing better in some of those systemic issues? And if you think about some of the representation around the world, different countries, how beautiful would be if there was a really concerted effort in affecting some of those systemic changes that we talk about.

George 26:48

Yeah, you're talking my language, Ana. As a I feel a strong connection to what you're saying and a strong energy. If we could perhaps daydream a little bit whether towards the accrediting bodies or more broadly to the future of coaching, perhaps we could explore what changes you'd like to see brought about and we can dust off our coaches' magic wands and ask, if we could all wave a magic wand here related to a more socially conscious coaching, what changes would you like to see, Tracy, in whether it's coach training, coach accreditation, or the coaching world more broadly?

Tracy 27:28

Yeah, I think there are definitely some changes that we could make. It would be wonderful if coach training could more overtly include some aspects of social impact where coaching is concerned. I still find personally that many people come to train with me for coaching, who are looking to then provide executive coaching into some organisations. And I'm not in any way decrying the benefit of that. So I think awareness, raising the awareness of the potential applications for coaching at all stages, whether it's through someone's membership of a professional body, through their coach training school, at every touch point that we might have. I think if we could do more to demonstrate and share what are the potential applications of this work, I think we can often niche things. Like a lot of people will come to me with very simple questions of when I've trained with you, will I be an executive coach or a life coach? As though they're two completely different domains. And yet actually it's the same thing, it's about context again. So I think there's a lot more that we could do at many levels to actually really demonstrate not just what coaching is, but what its ultimate potential is for contextual application. For me, I've started thinking about coaching now as a communication skill. I mean, I don't talk about coaching per se quite a lot anymore. I'm thinking now that this is a way of engaging with myself and other people that is valuable to anyone in any context. So I think opening up the awareness of that is you know is could be a very good start.

George 29:34

Ana.

Ana 29:35

Yes, I agree. And I think that in our role as educators, perhaps amplify their understanding of coaching in different contexts and how important it is, and and gather the evidence and speak the language of those people who will be commissioning coaching in communities as opposed to organisations. There is a focus on organisation, of course. And of course, Tracy, when you say that and it like people wanting to be an executive coach, part of me thinks I've trained 20 years ago, where everything was coaching for performance, and coaching was the thing that just you know the top execs would get and no one else would. Now a lot more people are having access to it, but there is also something around economics. People want to, if you're going to make a living, right? So you think, well, if I work for organisations, I'll get paid, if I work for communities, I don't, then there is that decision to make. And I think if you can change that paradigm, then people legitimately will think, well, where do I want to work? And given is that given that they won't be making as much money in communities, but actually it doesn't need to be so great a gap that it stops people from working in the environments in which they want to work. There should not be a barrier. People should be able to say, oh, I will like to coach in education, I want to go into the health service, I want to go in communities and help engagement and belonging, I want to go and work with disadvantaged communities, I want to go and work with women, survivors of domestic violence, and be able to actually do the work and see that as the value. And of course, for the people carrying out that those projects, that they see coaching as a go-to intervention. So there is a training aspect there, so people are more aware of that. And I think there is an education aspect for commissions in all these different environments where we can talk about coaching. And I can see that more and more in the places I work, so people understand coaching a lot a lot more now, and they're bringing them into their projects. And I think if you think about the magic, the magic one that you've mentioned, I think there are some challenges that I think we also need to address, which is we need to make sure that we work ethically and we don't become part of the problem. We don't perpetuate the problem. So for example, I think we can get really enthusiastic. Well, I can, I can certainly talk about myself going and thinking coaching can support people, they can give them agency, empowerment, that sense of you know being able to do something. However, we need to be really mindful of the context and the limitations that those people are encountering there day to day. So we don't become the person say, oh, actually, if you want to be well, is your responsibility as a person. It can do everything you can to improve your health and wellbeing. When you full well know, when you look at the context, that's not true. There are factors that impact people's health and wellbeing which are beyond their control. So I think that is one of the biggest challenges for me ethically in my becoming part of the problem, in my perpetuating a view that individuals can do whatever they can when, in fact, it's so obvious that there are some social, economic, and other barriers which are beyond their influence and their impact. And I think this is really, really important. If we are to amplify and expand this work, we need to have conversations around perhaps some of the philosophies that we're using for coaching and whether they they are suitable for some communities, or what we need to also challenge ourselves in our perception of what coaching is and what it isn't, and our limitations as well. Is it something that's always plays in my mind? You know, am I helping here or am I just becoming part of the problem and perpetuating some of the systemic issues and injustice that I see daily?

George 33:56

And one of the tensions I think we're arriving at in hearing you speak, Ana, is this sense that traditionally in its what 30 years or so going from performance coaching with a focus on growth and outcomes and high performance. We are in an era of a climate crisis, a fuel crisis here in the UK, economic crisis, cost of living crisis, an era of systemic racism as well. And these could all be collated together in a in a polycrisis or a meta-crisis, because it's all connected and all of the things are inextricably connected. And I'm just wondering out loud if this is an opportunity for us to a go deeper into the ethics of what coaching means in 2023 and beyond, but also potentially really re-evaluate this idea that coaching has to be non-directive, that coaches don't have an agenda, that coaches need to always follow the client's agenda. I'm wondering out loud, and I'd love to hear some thoughts from you around whether the purpose or the philosophy or the definition of coaching needs to perhaps evolve a little bit to attend to our role in a multi-layered unfolding crisis.

Tracy 35:15

I would agree with all of those things that you said, and I think it is a perfect storm almost of some risks and pitfalls that we have to be careful of and navigate, ethics being one of them, and a huge opportunity for coaching to really blossom and evolve into something that really does meet a human need. There's a balancing act, isn't there, between, on the one hand, keeping at least to some level the integrity of what we know coaching to be in terms of how it adds value to someone versus what kind of vocabulary we use to articulate and define it. Because once we start using that vocabulary, it puts it in a particular box, and then we start to get boundaries and we have to navigate those boundaries. So I do think that there is a huge opportunity here for coaching to evolve and to blossom and to come into its own. And I feel that, albeit though it's an unfortunate state of affairs that we are experiencing in the world in many, many ways, coaching is coming into its own almost because of that in a way. I fundamentally believe that coaching is part of society's solution. And I think that it's very important that we do take care with the ethics, that we do keep that very, very highly on our agenda because the integrity of our profession is paramount, and that we are also open to think about how is this entity, this way of working called coaching, how is it evolving and morphing and what needs to evolve in order to meet that change in the world? Because I think we are on the cusp of a huge opportunity for coaching to really add value in a way that we would not imagine. You know, if we go to that magic perfect world again, I think that we talk about coaching being part, an integral part of a society that is thriving. There are many aspects of our society right now that are not thriving. And I feel that coaching could make an enormous difference. So I think there's a balancing act between keeping our minds very open and creative as to what it could be, and also really holding against that the rigour of the integrity and the ethics to keep an eye on. How are we moving forwards?

Ana 37:49

Absolutely, Tracy. Can I just add something to that? Because another thing that comes to mind is some perhaps unhelpful language that we use and the rigidity of some of our models. And one thing that comes to my mind is if I agree with Tracy that coaching can be instrumental in addressing some of this really intractable societal issues that we have. And yet we we look at coaching it from a very westernised individualistic perspective, individuals going for their what they want, fulfilling their potential. And what does that mean leaving bodies behind as long as you can fulfill your potential? Does that mean flourishing with your community and others? And there are other ways of looking at coaching that becomes a lot more collective, and I think we haven't explored that sufficiently in this part of the world to even consider that coaching can be something that's not just so individualistic and can be collective and can be used for societal changes in a very positive way. Again, there's another change in paradigm because where coaching comes from. And one of the critiques that we have of coaching, that you know, it's all very me, me, me. What about me? What goals do I have? What do I want to achieve? Whereas we can start asking questions that perhaps are not so individualistic. And also there a downside to that, that we all observe in organisations specifically, with overwhelm, overwork, burnout. And that is really downside of me fulfilling my potential and going higher and higher and higher and never stopping to take a breath, or to actually ask questions about what I really value in life. So I think that the opportunities are there, but I think it requires a paradigm shift. It would take time, and also I think it requires integrity and honesty about who we are as coaches, that I I'm not neutral. I live in a particular country in a particular time. I had a specific type of education, I have my heritage, so I cannot be seen as just this kind of devoid of anything person who goes in to support. You know, I see coaching as a real alliance and a thinking space, and in that space, I'm in that space. I bring myself to that space. I'm not holding a space separate from me, from my identity, in a sort of in a glass wall that my client is there. Bringing myself to it in the way I speak, in the way I am, and in everything. And I think that's something that perhaps we need to revisit, especially when we're training coaches, that how do we negotiate that ethical space whilst we're bringing ourselves into it? And perhaps last thought on that is that when you work in communities, this becomes so, so, so important. Because there might be at some level a kind of a savior complex. You know, I go in these communities and I help these people who wouldn't otherwise have access to coaching, and I think they should have, you know, so is their part of me. I have to be really mindful that I am truly having that equal alliance and partnership with those communities and recognising some of the challenges in that because I have no way to know what it's like to be them. I don't have the same narrative, the same experience. So, how how do I truly meet them where they are without making judgments about other spaces that I cannot inhabit? I don't really know what it's like to you know be a survival of domestic violence, to live with a long-term condition, to be in a state in a place where I have to go to a food bank to feed my family. So when I meet those people, I have to be really mindful that I am truly looking at them as equal. And that's another challenge. And that's why I think we need to bring ourselves in, because otherwise it becomes quite hard to do that. If I step so far away from from this, I have to come in with my empathy, with my not knowing, or like so I can perhaps, just perhaps, create a space that that it does feel joint and a true alliance that I don't become the professional parachuting in amongst many others, in many cases. It's not straightforward.

Tracy 42:43

Which is something, just to add to that, something that also needs to change around the profession of coaching, because in a way, if you look at the demographics and the profile of coaching as a profession, it's not always equal. If you look at the the kinds of people that currently have access or traditionally have access to coaching, and also the demographic of the people who are typically coaches, that partnering isn't there from the beginning. That equality or equity, if you like, isn't there from the beginning. And so I think that is a paradigm shift, you know, building and agreeing, Ana, with what you were saying, is we also need to look at our our the current definition, not just of coaching, but of us as professionals and practitioners in that space. Because otherwise we're already starting from some kind of mismatch platform, psychologically, emotionally, socially, whatever that might be. And we need to be able to create that equal space.

Ana 43:51

It's so true, isn't it? When we look at the very limited demographic of coaching and coaching training. Who are training bu t we know the barriers I mean it's not cheap to train as h as a lifelong learner I spent quite a lot of money over the last decades just training and learning and topping it up and that business itself is a barrier you know how you get people from different backgrounds to to join our community and learn and get interested in coaching when you know there are no opportunities i mean just the training itself and education is a real problem . It'll be interesting I don't know if there kind of a statistics that look at our demographics collectively across different countries , what I do know is that when I in the very few occasions I've been part of conferences where you can see how many there's more of a presence of Europe and and the US as opposed to other countries but even then if you look at countries is specifically who are those people training and working as coaches and how can we widen the access to that training and of course as well one place my mind goes is the predominance of the English language and of course language shapes how we think and as coaching has been and coach training and coach competencies have been exported around the world there is a danger of a very Anglo or US centric style of coaching being taught and trained and adopted in cultures at the cost of as you mentioned and a sort of very beautiful and diverse and very profoundly different ways of thinking and ways of speaking and I think maybe just to to offer a slight counter to balance this a little bit is I don't think we're making a start you know, I don't think we are in a place where none of this is there at least from the experience I have in the various systems that I'm lucky to be a part of I see change you know I do see changes in that demographic I do see changes in language I do see changes in in equity and accessibility so it's not that it's that we've not done anything I think there are threads starting for me it's about really putting energy behind that so that we can accelerate because things are changing at such a pace as we know in our world and we need to be responsive to that.

Tracy 46:43

So I think it's really about seeing the opportunity and putting priority and energy into accelerating some of these some of this evolution of how of how coaching could really come into its own.

Ana 47:02

Yes I agree Tracy is not sufficient by any stretch of imagination but I'm thinking about coaching training is specifically and is being more widespread than before especially in in organisations and I'm talking about community organisations or government bodies for example NHS training their staff in coaching so they can go off and work with their communities or work with their staff. But I'm not quite sure if those people are actually part of our coaching bodies for example I don't know because usually this type of coaching training is an apprenticeship. So there is a coaching apprenticeship nationally in the UK and it's a level five apprenticeship that organisations can roll out for their people. So there is in that sense is a lot more accessible than any coaching training or doing a Master's in coaching that would cost a lot more.

Ana and George 48:03

And of course it's being paid by the organisation which means that they're getting people who perhaps would not have the means to pay but actually they're being trained and they're working so perhaps we don't know as much about about that in terms of demographic that would help us have a have a snapshot of where we are as a profession and because we've got so many different bodies doing different things and we work in isolation in little silos and you know it's difficult enough to to keep up with all the different initiatives of all the different coaching bodies so perhaps there's also if you wanted to change the paradigm and effect some systemic changes that the coaching bodies potentially should look at working together in those issues and join forces and have a good reflection time with themselves and thinking we can do this come on we can we can work together otherwise it remains really fractured it's really difficult fragmented to get a really good picture. Then George as speaker - and as we start to come to the close of the conversation today it would be lovely to hear from you both what you'd like to say to our by way of closing perhaps an encouragement or an offer or a challenge. Ana. you know if if people have even the slight curiosity about what it's like to work as coaches in different settings and social contexts go for it is amazing work is very rewarding as we've been talking it does with it's tensions and challenges and and everything but it is amazing work so and I'd say find something that you're really passionate about and align to your values and give it a try. I do believe that whatever gift people have they can share you know so share whatever gift you have with your local community internationally with whichever shape or form and get together find people who are interested in the same things as you are because there are coaches communities organisations doing a lot of this work yeah and it will find your own community that will really welcome you and help you grow and learn so that's yeah go for it. Then George speaks - thanks Ana, Tracy

Tracy 50:49

Yeah I mean I would wholeheartedly agree with Ana and my call out would be perhaps even to a particular part of our demographic which is to young people where I have a real area of interest. Many many people come to coaching later on in their career as a second third or even fourth iteration of their pathway and I'd love to see people coming into this space earlier so that we can really have this this choice of a profession being a first career and not necessarily a third career. So my particular call out would be to young people how could this actually be your primary career? Because as Ana said there are many many many avenues you could take and it's incredibly rewarding and stimulating.

George 51:26

I can suddenly attest to that Tracy we've all got big smiles on our faces. Tracy, Ana thank you both so much for another conversation with the AoEC and I've really greatly appreciated all that you've had to share in this conversation.

Both guests 51:40

Thank you, thank you