Episode 14: Coaching in action at Wavelength Connect

Join us as we go behind the scenes of Wavelength Connect, which is a unique executive education and leadership development programme focused on the theme of The Future of Business.

Each year they bring together a cohort of 60 leaders from sectors that do not normally interact and provide access to a global array of the most admired, successful, and innovative companies, leaders and thinkers. Across this nine-month, in-person, experiential programme of events, behind the brand visits, peer working groups and executive coaching, leaders are immersed in four key themes:

Global perspectives on innovation & agility Culture & future workforce The responsible organisation Personal leadership

Having formed a partnership back in 2021, AoEC has been supporting Wavelength Connect participants with top notch, highly qualified, and highly experienced executive coaches to help leaders make the most of the programme and translate inspiration into application.

You can link with the speakers here:

Karen Smart, head of consultancy at the AoEC – Host
Jessica Stack, founder, Wavelength - guest panelist

If you would like to know more about Wavelength and the Connect programme, get in touch with the team here.

To find out more about coach training and coaching, please visit the AoEC’s website www.aoec.com.

Transcript

Karen 0:06

Welcome to Coaching Conversations with the AoEC and our episode Coaching in Action at Wavelength Connect. I'm Karen Smart, Head of Consultancy and Senior Faculty at the AoEC, and I'm delighted to welcome our special guest, Jess Stack, founder of Wavelength. Morning, Jess. How are you?

Jess 0:25

Good morning, Karen. I'm very good, thank you. How are you?

Karen 0:27

Yeah, really good. And it's great to see you. It's been a long time. Too long. How's how have things been?

Jess 0:33

Really busy. So we have just been closing the Connect 2025 programme. So that's really lovely. Lots of great feedback. So that's always really interesting. What people have taken away, what people have learnt, but also their kind of perspectives on improving the programme, building next year's cohort, so doing that simultaneously, super excited to get to know those people. And in fact, I'm just back from China, which is really lovely because I wanted to go pre-COVID 2020. No one was going to China, Karen. So this was my first opportunity to go, but really exciting to go and see on the ground things that I've heard about for the last 10 years. So yeah, that was great.

Karen 1:18

That does sound exciting, and funnily enough, John Leary- Joyce, our founder, is in Asia at the moment, so you've crossed over. There we go. He's in Japan. Anyway, a very warm welcome. We're delighted to have you as our podcast guest. Really, our association goes back a number of years, and we're really thrilled to think of Wavelength not only as our partners now but as our friends as well. So, really delighted with that and delighted to welcome you today. I wonder whether you'd like to start by introducing yourself.

Jess 1:54

Yeah, so thank you, Karen, and I completely agree. You know, this this partnership is hugely valuable to Wavelength as well. So I'm one of the co-founders of Wavelength. Wavelength was founded in 2008, so we've been going quite a long time now, and I always like to say this is my second career because my first career was as a set and costume designer in the theatre, and a lot of that kind of drama training and that that eye to detail and the sort of creative side informs the work that I do now.

Karen 2:26

That's an exciting trajectory, and I can see it in the way that you show up actually. There's a there's a real creativity and the creativity of your backdrop and everything, and I'm sure that brings a lot to Wavelength Connect, the programme. Perhaps you'd like to introduce our listeners to Wavelength Connect as well.

Jess 2:47

Yeah, thank you. I think that creativity kind of underpins all parts of the Connect programme. The Connect programme is a nine-month-long UK-based executive development programme. We work with a cohort of bout 60 leaders from about 20 different organisations across the course of that nine months. And those leaders purposefully come from a cross-section of organisations and sectors. So we're always looking to create a really diverse cohort that brings leaders from the corporate and private sector alongside those from a charity, third public sector organisations as well. And then what we do over the course of those nine months is to do kind of two things simultaneously. One is an organisational what's happening in the business landscape, and we explore that through three core themes. So global perspectives on innovation and agility. So bringing in those great insights from China that I was talking about, but also Silicon Valley, AI, you know, what's happening that leaders should be really aware of. The second theme is culture and future workforce, so what does it take to lead a great place to work organisation? What does that then look like in all its different facets from diversity through to mental health through to bringing different people into the organisation? And then the responsible organisation, so environmental and social impact that organisations could and should be having. So those are our three organisational themes that we're trying to help leaders understand in a really broad way. And then our fourth theme is the other side, which is the personal leadership part. So we believe that no change happens inside organisations without the energy, the ambition, the sort of opportunities that leaders can see that they can then drive for their leadership and for their organisation.

Karen 4:56

Wow. I mean, as you frame it like that, and those four key strands, I feel a sense of excitement building, and I've been fortunate enough to participate in some elements of your programmes. So I know that from what I've seen, this is kind of a practical better than an MBA. This is learning that you couldn't replicate in a standard learning programme. I don't know whether that resonates or whether you'd like to elaborate.

Jess 5:26

Yeah, as well. I'm not sure we're better than an MBA. We're an alternative to an MBA. And I think that that one of the things that we're really thoughtful about, and I know it's something that you and I have talked a bit about before, which is people have to find the right learning programme for them, for where they are in their leadership, for their learning style. And I think that MBAs are absolutely fantastic if what your learning style is is a kind of reading-writing, discursive, but more kind of academic, and your reflection style also sort of leads to that being a great way for you to get under the skin of what's you know, of leadership and what's happening in the business landscape. What we do is to try to go to the other end, which is all about immersive experiential learning. So lots of speakers sharing, the lessons that they've learned. So the people that have actually driven those change rather than a case study, but really hearing from those leaders that have driven change inside their organisation. And also then enabling people to go inside organisations and meet the senior leadership team, but also the frontline staff, do the tours, take part in getting under the skin of the organisation. So I think it does play to two kind of different styles of learning, would be my my view.

Karen 6:57

That's right. And obviously I guess one of the real benefits is the network that and the networking opportunity that comes with the event. Yeah, absolutely. And I think so, one of the kind of core principles that underpins all the work that Wavelength does, actually, but I think is particularly visible in the Connect programme, is the idea of leaders learn best from leaders. So absolutely, those leaders are on stage, they're the organisations that we showcase through the different programmes that we run, but equally it's about what you learn from your peer participants on that programme. And I would say with the Connect programme, that diversity of perspective is hugely valuable. So people are watching the same speaker, they're visiting the same organisation, but they're coming at it with very different points of view. So different realities that they're sitting with. So for me, some of the real excitement and some of the magic is around someone who comes from a financial sector or a pharmaceutical sector organisation talking and reflecting and questioning alongside someone from a housing association or someone whose charity focuses on the environment or on human trafficking. And that really different perspectives and those really different, as I say, realities that those people are coming from really informs the conversation and takes it in very different and new directions. And so everyone's learning is enhanced by the questions, the opportunities, the insights that each of those different people are taking away. And for me, that that is some of the most exciting part of the programme. That's awesome. And I'm, you know, reflecting back on my own corporate career and how difficult it can be to kind of branch outside your own sector. So I really get a sense of how enriching that is.

Jess 9:09

Yeah, and I think what it also does is to give people a new network. So one of the things we've really noticed since, I mean, it was kind of it was experienced pre-COVID, but it's definitely got worse as a result of COVID, is people's network has narrowed right down. And I think that it's it's very hard. You've got to invest time and energy in building and sustaining your network. And so programmes like this give participants a fantastic opportunity just to accelerate that breadth of new network. You know, meeting people whose paths wouldn't normally cross also means that that you can get that new network, that new perspective to bring back to your own leadership.

Karen 9:58

And before when we were just chatting, we spoke about the holistic nature of the learning. And I know you can't necessarily put a utilitarian value on the outcomes from Wavelength, but other than the network, what would you say it brings to people that come to you and also to the organisations that they serve?

Jess 10:24

Yeah, and I think so. I think one of the things that I am really passionate about is what we say that we don't do pointless inspiration. So actually we're really focused on what is the impact and what are people going to do differently as a result of taking part in our programmes. And on the Connect programme, because we work with people over the course of a long window, that nine months in the year, it enables us to keep plugging away at what are you trying, what are you doing, what are the changes that you are making for yourself and inside the organisation. So I think had it sort of again, if I divide it into that personal organisational, on the organisational side, I think there are some insights, some tips, some lessons that people steal immediately, steal with glee, go and do tomorrow, because actually they can just go, I can change that. It's within my sphere of responsibility, I can just do that now. And I think there's lots and lots of those small insights that come very quickly all the way through the programme. And then I think the space that the programme gives and the network creates the opportunity for a number of other organisational impacts. So I think absolutely there are the opportunity for partnerships that come out of this different network. And we see that. So people will say, I am now working with, I am talking to, we are putting together a new initiative that comes out of that different network. We also see organisations that look at things like culture and values and they say, we knew we needed to work on this, but what this has given us is going inside a lot of different organisations, we understand now how that shows up in lots of different ways. So one organisation does it like this, another organisation does it like that. It has enabled us to see different ways that we could explore culture and values, and also how they are really lived, rather than just being words on a wall, how they really show up in the behaviours of the leadership that then cascades down through the organisation. And then I think from a personal perspective, what we see as an output of the programme is absolutely that energy that you were talking about before. I think people gain, and they tell us this, they gain a new voice. So they gain an understanding that they don't have to be a specialist in all of those areas that I talked about: innovation, environmental impact, ED and I. They don't have to be a specialist, but actually it gives people a toolkit that they can draw on when they're brought into different conversations and a way of being more confident and in expressing a point of view that perhaps is moving the organisation on.

Karen 13:34

And you know, are so many multifactorial polycrisis issues. Actually, I can see that will bring real strength and robustness to thinking within a business. You know, for example, that you're not good or not strong in one of these areas, actually gaining expertise from those who do have it, I can see is a really strong thing. And I guess ultimately impacts on strategy as well. So I'm guessing that you know making these incremental changes when you add that up overall, we're talking about a cultural and strategic change or shift.

Jess 14:18

I think that's absolutely right. I think so. One of our participants of this year made a really fantastic observation, which is around disruption. And he said day one of this nine-month programme laid out to him that the world is going through profound change. And our roles as leaders is to help our organisations and our colleagues and our employees navigate that change. And I think that just so summed up for me what we're seeing in our leaders from all walks of life, whether that be corporates or charities, everybody is trying to navigate effectively the change that is buffeting all businesses, all organisations from all sides, and is happening at a global level in a way that we certainly haven't had to live and lead through. And I think your point around it informs the strategy is really well made, actually. So we had another client from a different organisation say that one of the ways that they're using the group that went through the programme this year is to inform the strategy group internally, because they have now this breadth of understanding of what's happening in the world because of our global perspectives on innovation, and also you know, more locally in terms of what's happening here, specifically in the UK economically, that knowledge, that breadth is really feeding in to the strategy group that's overarching the global group organisation.

Karen 15:58

Yeah, as you say, it's almost like having your own informal advisory panel, really. And so there's the learning that you get within that group, your shared, your peer group, but also I know, Jess, that you're very well connected wavelength is very well connected. So you're able to bring together , some of the leading thinkers around leadership and strategy from across the world. And so there's a multiple virtuous loop, actually, within the programme as I see it.

Jess 16:32

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I mean, one of the things that we talk about and that kind of underpins Wavelength as a company is that idea of our own network, our own ecosystem. And so we've always worked incredibly hard to keep connected to people that are doing interesting stuff, right? The end of the day, people doing interesting stuff in the world, have an interesting point of view, have a different perspective. And actually, one of the things that I love is that we've got people that we've been working with as speakers and host organisations for a long, long time. And then we've got people that have come through the programmes as participants that then do interesting stuff and then become speakers, and then exactly as you say, this kind of virtual circle exists where people's people link directly back the work that they're now doing to their experience on the programme. So a really fantastic example, and one of my absolute favourites is a woman called Hilary Berg, who is is now she's founded her own business, but at the time she was part of Iceland Foods here in the UK and very passionate about sustainability and environment and drove a lot of, well, most actually, of the environmental impact work that Iceland foods were doing around plastics, around palm oil. But she came to us or with us rather on a programmeme to Bangladesh, which was around exploring microfinance with the Nobel laureate, Professor Muhammad Yunus, the founder of Grameen Bank. And she just held on to that idea. This was about 2009. She held on to that idea and held on to it. And eventually, about 18 months ago, she worked with Iceland to launch a microfinance loan structure for Iceland food and the customers that they serve who have really struggled through the last 10 to 15 years with austerity and all of that sort of social immobility. So, that was a fantastic example of someone who absolutely held on to that piece of stimulus until the moment was right. And then she saw the opportunity and went for it.

Karen 18:54

And just as a very informal kind of quip, I found myself in a nearby town standing outside an Iceland shop not so long ago. And it really struck me how the image has changed because I've I was standing there thinking, oh look, Iceland, that's the shop with the really good values. Now, if you went back a few years, that might not have been the image that I'd held up.

Jess 19:20

No, that's really interesting.

Karen 19:21

And I love to hear the leadership of Iceland talking about how everyone deserves to have good values within their food, and just because you haven't got much money, you shouldn't necessarily have to compromise on values. And I find that so inspiring.

Jess 19:41

But it's interesting that that is now your perception, but you're absolutely right. 10 plus years ago, we'd have gone, oh yeah, that's just frozen, probably not high-quality food.

Karen 19:51

But it is interesting about that integration of personal and organisational values, and that's a really delightful example of the two coming together. And I wonder whether there's more that you could say about that.

Jess 20:07

Yeah, I think one of the things that we've been able to explore in more depth over the course of the Connect programme is a sort of conversation that's become more and more important, is around purpose and how personal purpose and understanding and unlocking or just being reminded of your personal purpose and where that meets organisational purpose. And I think personal purpose in the coaching world has always been a really strong fore-of-mind topic. I think organisational purpose, we've kind of gone from values to mission to purpose. But actually, I think calling it purpose and then that connection and how those two fit together or sometimes don't, is really important. And I think one of the great things that we unlock on the Connect programme is, as I say, people getting back in touch with their personal purpose or articulating it in a slightly different way, but then also exploring okay, so if it doesn't necessarily lock completely in with the organisational purpose, that doesn't mean leave. That doesn't mean oh, go and start working with a charity or you know, in a school or something like that. Actually, what it's about is can you use the platform that your organisation gives you and your status and your leadership within the organisation to amplify your personal purpose in the organisation and maybe also outside of it? So, a really fantastic example of that would be a woman who came on the programmeme about three years ago. And she said one of the big takeouts for her was understanding that she's really passionate about environmental impact. And she'd been asked by the board to really focus on that drive for sustainability inside the organisation. And she just said, I can't do it. I've got too much on. It's not possible. Nine months later, as she exited the programmeme, she said, I've gone back and I've said, I have to do this. I'm so passionate in this space that actually I want to revisit that conversation and I will drive and spearhead the conversation about sustainability. But I can't do it alongside everything else. So we have to have a conversation about what I'm no longer not doing in order that I can do this. But this is so important to me. So I think that's really interesting. So where that locking, unlock comes also then enables you to really think about how you can use your passion and your energy and your drive inside the organisation, even though perhaps it the two don't fit perfectly together. There's always a window, there's always the opportunity. It's about having the space to see that that opportunity and take those changes whilst also laying out the boundaries of but what am I not doing?

Karen 23:32

That's so interesting. It sort of links to how we work here in terms of working and supporting people to use a systemic approach. And in that case, in a way, the sustainability, the environment is a stakeholder in the outcomes of business and working life, really. It's easy for that one to be overlooked. So it sounds as though the learning from the programme enabled her to become more in tune with her own values, but also to listen to the world almost as a stakeholder in what's going on and find the power to actually carve out the space to make space for it.

Jess 24:15

Yeah, I think I think that's exactly right. And I think at the end of the day, what are we all doing? We all want to. One of the speakers that we heard really recently was talking about there's the job and there's the work, and actually drawing a difference between the two. And what he was talking about was saying, I have a job and it does link to the work, but it's contained within the box of the organisation, and I have to represent the organisation, and sometimes that's a frustration to me. But the work, which is also actually in sustainability space, is an umbrella and it extends way beyond the scale of the job and the organisation. And I think I would say sustainability, well, maybe not actually. I'm actually, as I'm rethinking, and I would say, you know, things like equality, diversity, and inclusion, probably. These are topics which expand beyond the scope of the organisation and the job. And people have the capacity, if they look for those windows of where they can have influence, where they can affect change. It always goes beyond the job and beyond the organisation.

Karen 25:37

And that you know links to perhaps our connection. We've collaborated. It's four years. Yes, four years. And that's been about bringing a coaching opportunity into Wavelength. And since we're talking about finding space, I just wondered whether you would be able to comment on on what that has brought to Wavelength Connect and to the participants.

Jess 26:03

Yeah, and it's just brought such a lot, Karen. It really has. So I think it was pre-COVID, it was something that we were talking about would be a real asset to the programme. But we we're just working in a different world now where we are able to offer it because people will accept online learning in a way that and online coaching in a way that probably pre-COVID would have been much more challenging. But it was something, as I say, that we were absolutely thinking about in the years leading up to COVID and just really struggling with how to do it. So it's been fantastic to meet you guys and and this fantastic pool of executive coaches that can work alongside the core curriculum. So I think just to sort of expand a little bit, how it works is we've got the core curriculum that takes place over the course of the nine months and a kind of heartbeat of events and visits that take place. And then the coaching slots into that. And I think we've got better at ensuring that that connection is felt all the way through the nine months. So we also have a heartbeat of the coaching. So there's four sessions across the nine months, and we kind of have windows that we recommend people put that coaching opportunity into. And I would say that there's a number of big impacts and big changes that we've seen that have been absolutely brilliant. So one is, and it goes back to what we were talking about earlier about the different learning styles. So I think a lot of leadership development is either very focused on that kind of auditory extrovert, we're all in the room, we're all doing conversations together, discussions together. And it plays brilliantly to the extroverts and the people that like that style of learning, or it's often very kind of reading and writing focused, and it plays strongly into people that like to reflect and absorb and articulate their thinking in writing. And whilst we work hard in the core curriculum to try to bring in other styles of learning, so solitary reflection, actually, what the coaching does, I think, is to really help those people that value that one-to-one learning style and also that solitary preparation that a really good coach will ensure that you are doing before you walk through the door. And of course, it also really helps the introverts who perhaps would struggle consistently to sustain having their voices in a big space. You know, we know it's not that that the introverts won't contribute, of course they do, but it just is much harder over the course of two, three days for people to sustain. So I think it's really helped us broaden out and be more inclusive in our working with different people. I think the second really big benefit is that psychologically safe space that we're trying to create across the whole programme. But there are some conversations that people almost certainly won't want to explore in the main curriculum. So I know that one of the things that comes up frequently is our speakers talk about impostor syndrome, and everyone nods and goes, yes, yes, impostor syndrome. But it always comes up in the coaching and it usually comes up in the first session after the first event. So very early on in the curriculum. And that's hugely impactful for those individuals to really explore that very challenging experience that they're either going through now or or have gone through that's holding them back. Other people talk about, you know, they'd forgotten to look after themselves. And again, you want to get really granular with a coach about a conversation like that. That's not an in-the-room conversation. We again can sort of touch on that in the room. How are you looking after yourself? How are you looking after your mental health, your resilience? But you want to get really granular with a coach around that. And then actually, really interestingly, one of the participants this year has specifically asked the Wavelength team and also his colleagues and peers to give some feedback on his leadership style so that he can take that. So go, I've been through this programme which has explored leadership in all its different facets, dictator through to, you know, coach and mentor, and then actually really drilling in in his final session to okay, if this is how other people are experiencing me and my leadership, what do I want to take forward? So, again, really, really personal impact. So I think that's been massively valuable, that psychological safe space to really look at one-to-one. And then I think the third thing, and we call it coaching to action, all of this programme is about what are you going to do differently. And I think I've always felt that this is a brilliant space for the coach and the participant to break down the barriers that there are to action and really work that through individually and personally for that leader. So sometimes it might be a psychological barrier in terms of, I just don't feel like I have the voice or I have the mandate, or someone said to me, I feel caged when I came into the programme. I felt caged about what I could do inside the organisation. So let's break down some of those barriers. Or it might be that actually there are literal barriers to a conversation inside the organisation. So let's explore how to navigate, how to influence who do we need to be talking to. Let's have a strategy and a framework that we rehearse in the coaching space and then feel more confident, more able, more energised to drive that through in the organisation. So I can see huge, huge value and huge change in the participants and what they take out supported by the coaching from the programme.

Karen 32:44

And you know, that echoes with the feedback. I think one of the other benefits is that having our cohort of coaches enables at some kind of group level a more informal feedback pro feedback loop for you, where things may get shared anonymously that may be more uncomfortable to share personally. So I think there's sort of a benefit, a hidden benefit almost in that way too.

Jess 33:13

Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, actually, our insight around impostor syndrome came out of that informal feedback loop where one coach mentioned it and the others went, yes, absolutely. That's what I experienced too. And what's wonderful is that then means when we are designing the programme and when we are curating the group of speakers that are going to talk at the core events, we can listen to that feedback and we can ensure that our speakers take time and they address that. And it comes up not once serendipitously, but it comes up with a number of different speakers exploring how they've overcome impostor syndrome.

Karen 33:57

I wonder now whether we could sort of take a look to the future. Obviously, we've had the UK election, we've had our first budget, the new government, we've had the US election. We've got this climate crisis continuing as well as numerous wars. What do you say in terms of the future, the emerging needs of leadership against this backdrop and the education that leaders need to navigate that for the future?

Jess 34:30

I think it's such a great question. And I mean, last year permacrisis was the word of the year. So permacrisis feels like the state that we have been in for, I mean, way back to Brexit if you are living in the UK, and probably longer, because I think this instability that we are experiencing at a global level, so political instability, economic instability, the impact of global events on business, I think has never been more sharply felt. And so I and it's something that we are incredibly mindful of when we are talking to our clients and again when we're curating the conversations and the speakers that we invite to be the inspiration to result in the impact out of the programme. And I think there's a few mindsets that we are hearing leaders, whether they be our speakers or whether they be our participants, talking about. And curiosity is absolutely one, I think, because partly it's how do you keep positive, how do you keep buoyant and able to kind of find an articulation of how to move the company forwards in the face of all of this? It would be really easy just to feel like you're drowning most of the time in all the the waves of change, disruption, challenge that are coming at us. So I think curiosity is a really, really key attribute that buoyant leaders are able to draw on. And I think what does it do? It keeps you looking in unusual places for insights, for opportunities, for businesses, for collaborations, for partnerships. And actually also kind of keeps you open-minded about what's under your nose, like what's the obvious stuff that if you're drowning, you're not going to see because you're just mired in the day-to-day. So I think that curiosity is really important. I think kind of linked to that, there's a courageousness that needs to be embraced. You know, there are hard roads that we have to take, and there are hard decisions that we have to take. And I think all leaders and all organisations are at the sharp end of those tough decisions and the impact, you know, we frankly, we saw it in the budget. The budget was a lot of hard roads and tough decisions. I think we're all experiencing that. And so I think the third thing I would say is well, we talked again a little bit about it already, but being really mindful of your individual energy and what replenishes that energy and how you can keep resilient so that you can keep curious, so that you can keep open-minded, so that you can be courageous, underpinning it all actually is energy. And I guess going back to the coaching question, that is also one of the things that people have to really think about individually. What is it that that keeps you energised? We all know there are the buckets that you need to think about, you know, sleep and social interaction and physical. I'm going to say that again because again, my menopausal brain, Karen.

Karen 37:58

I almost think that that's a big topic too. And you know, half of me is thinking, I want you to feel comfortable, but also kind of don't edit it out because this is the world we're living in. And I, as you're speaking, I'm reflecting on an informal mentor that I work with who is the archetypal wise woman, you know, the post-menopausal wisdom of what would have been considered the crone who says energy follows thought. And that's to me the summation of what you're talking about. That actually, when we manage our own energy well, we can transmit that to the people around us, our family, our friends, our work colleagues. If we succumb to these pressures, that's also what we attract for ourselves, for our families, for our work co-workers. You know, I know that's what she would say. And that this is kind of the summation of the whole conversation for me.

Jess 39:02

I think you're absolutely right, and that kind of wise woman has it's I think it's so interesting how much that's changed, actually. And like blessed Davina McCall, amongst many other wise women, but blessed Davina McCall, she has made it okay to say, Oh my god, I'm having a menopausal moment, I can't remember the word. Whereas before, I think women would have just shut up and stopped and kind of bowed down to their own silence. Because it is extraordinary how you can be mid-sentence and suddenly lose the word, lose the thought. But the energy piece, I think, is so important wherever you are in your career, but I think very particularly at the top of the leadership ladder. Because I think we're asking our leaders to be vulnerable, we're asking our leaders to be curious, open-minded, know lots of different perspectives, have an authentic voice, but only so far. And actually, it's you know, it is a lonely place. That's a kind of statement of the obvious, and lots of people have talked about it, but it is, it is still a lonely place, and it's a place where actually sometimes you have to decide to be vulnerable, or decide to be poker-faced and very positive and on top of the game, or a dictator when that's not your natural style, or open-minded when actually all you want to do is just say, just get on with it. And I think the resilience and the energy that it takes to be able to psychologically step back from the situation whilst you're in it is hugely important, but very hard to sustain. And so, how you replenish that energy on a day-to-day basis, I mean, I know I have peaks and troughs myself through the year, where I find it easier and harder. But what are the things that give you that that capacity back is a really great question to ask yourself. And then having asked it and making sure that you're aware of it, then making the space to live it. And a lot of people, I think, myself included, you just get drawn into barcoding your diary, working late, working, you know, I'll just do, I'll just do a bit on Saturday morning or a bit on Sunday evening. And actually, that's just filling time, that's not managing your energy.

Karen 41:45

And I mean, I wasn't going to personalise this conversation, but I know how hard you work and how much you drive yourself. It doesn't surprise me to hear about those energy peaks and troughs. How do you sustain yourself?

Jess 41:59

Well, I would say we all work incredibly hard. And I think one of the really lovely, and I'm always surprised that I'm surprised, but one of the lovely things about having this really diverse cohort on the Connect programme is everyone always goes, Wow, we're all facing the same challenges, even though we come from corporates and charities and public sector. And I'm like, Yes, I know. But actually, again, someone out of this year's programme said that one of the things that they really valued was they came from the charity sector and they said, I thought that we were the only people that were constrained by time and money. And actually, everybody in this room, regardless of their business model, is constrained by time and money. And actually, the thing that you do have control over is your energy to then manage the time and the money. So, and there's you know, obviously there's more issues, but he just pulled out those two things. So I think how do I sustain my energy? I'm very lucky because I get lots of inspirational input. I get to go to China for a week and see what's happening there and come back hugely energised and having had some great conversations, but literally seen the future, as one of our participants put it. And I also get huge energy from seeing the impact that the programmes that we run have on the participants. So, my my personal purpose, which again I'm very lucky, I've worked with one of our speakers. Um, I got taken through his workshop in order to then facilitate the workshop alongside him. So I got to work with him on my personal purpose. And and my personal purpose is very much around creating the space, the stage, because of my drama background, to have participants step into to experience a new way of working and ultimately for them to change the world through the insights that we've given. And so I feel like I'm I'm almost like the stone falling into the lake and the ripples go out, and the participants that come on our programme are the ripples that go out. And so I've always wanted to change the world for the better. That's always been kind of at the heart of everything that I've done right back to being a teenager, and so I get I get a lot of energy and I get a lot of I can hold on to it's hard and it's challenging and it's you know it's tough, but those ripples, those ripples have gone out into the world.

Karen 44:39

It's not lost on me that it's also part of our logo. And I'm thinking that , when you look at our logo, there are ripples rippling out, and that's our shared purpose and shared shared legacy. Yes, it's been such an honour to speak to you today. Thank you for being so generous with your time.

Jess 45:00

It's been absolutely fantastic, thank you. And we look forward to next year, and our ongoing collaboration.

Karen 45:09

We look forward to next year with our energy.

Jess 45:13

I think you have to look forward to next year. My takeaway from where we are right now is at least we have certainty. We might not like the certainty, but in all of the storm of instability, there are starting to be some some clarity.

Karen 45:29

Well, clarity. Some clarity is better than obscurity, even if we are not in love with the clarity that we have. We know what we're dealing with.

Jess 45:38

Absolutely, we know what we're dealing with, exactly. Thank you, Karen. Thank you so much.