Episode 13: Navigating career change: overcoming fears and embracing new paths

In this episode, we explore the emotional challenges that come with career change, especially when making bold moves such as leaving corporate life to become an entrepreneurial coach or transitioning into a new line of work.

We'll dive into the powerful emotions of career transitions and, in particular, into the fears that can hold you back, what to expect during the process, and how coaching itself can provide some of the support needed to make informed decisions.

Whether you're considering a career shift or are already on the path, this discussion will offer practical insights to help you navigate the uncertainty and confidently embrace your next chapter.

You can link with the speakers here:

Sue Reynolds, AoEC & founder of Sue Reynolds Executive Coaching – episode host · Araceli Candeo Bebbington, founder, Power of Change – guest panellist · Jon Palmstrom, founder, Off-Piste Coaching - guest panellist

To find out more about coach training and coaching, please visit the AoEC’s website www.aoec.com.

Transcript

Sue 0:06

Welcome everyone. Today's topic is navigating career change, and this is part of a series of conversations that we've been having in the AoEC, coaching conversations, and today we thought we could talk about career change and overcoming fears and embracing new paths. So that might be relevant for anybody who's you know moving into a coaching career or any other career, come to that. My name is Sue Reynolds, I'm one of the faculty of the AoEC, and I also run my own executive coaching business. I myself made quite a big career change away from the corporate world in 2020, quite a year that one. And I'm joined today by two other lovely fellow coaches and people who have also made career changes. First of all, Araceli, I come to you. So Araceli Bebbington is with me. Could you say a little bit about yourself, Araceli?

Araceli 1:07

Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Sue, for having me today here. And yeah, similar to you, I also have a past in the corporate environment. So I spent nearly 25 years in the financial sector, and I um was focused on transformation and I was a managing director running large global teams, and my interest and my desire to help people grow and develop, but also embrace change brought me into the executive coaching path. So I'm an executive coach and I focus on leadership and on career transition coaching.

Sue 1:48

Thank you, Araceli. And we're also joined by Jon Palmstrom. So welcome, Jon. Could you say a little bit about yourself?

Jon 1:57

Certainly, and thanks so you for it for having me on today. I think I've gone through two sort of career shifts, I would say. So back in a former life, I was working in France and Austria where I was snowboarding every day, and I ended up working as a chef. I was working on super yachts in the summer, and then working somewhat to the rich and famous in luxury ski resorts. And then I transitioned seamlessly into a role as a recruiter in the IT and finance space. So a big shift there, and there I spent probably about 13 years speaking to people about different roles, initially externally, and then I was working for places like Credit Suisse for specialist management consultancies, and my last seven years of corporate life was at JP Morgan, where I was a senior recruiter, and about coming up for three and a half, four years ago, I set up my full-time coaching practice, left the corporate world, and now run Off-piste coaching.

Sue 3:01

It's fascinating, isn't it? And it reminds me that we do often make these types of transitions several times across a career. You reminded me that my first ever career was teaching horse riding, and I loved it, and I embraced it for five years, and then realised I'd probably needed to get something that was going to earn me a bit more money, so I had to go back into education. But, we do these things, don't we, at different points in our lives, and they come along with a significant transition. And I'm wondering for both of you, what do you think's come up for you emotionally at the time of making these types of transitions? Araceli, maybe we come to you first.

Araceli 3:44

Well, I actually was recently in a conference in Rome when I spoke about the emotional roller coaster of navigating career transition and you know reinventing our career, but ultimately reinventing ourselves as well. And if I think about the time when I was going through the decision-making process of moving from the corporate world and fully focusing on the coaching path and setting up my own business, I remember, t here were two fears that were quite prominent when I was going through that decision-making process. The first one, I had the fear of throwing my career away because I felt, oh, you know, I put a lot of effort. And despite the fact that it's not the first time that I've made a whole career move, but I was feeling like I put all this effort to climb the ladder to the top, and now, am I going to throw everywhere, everything out of the window. So the second the second fear was an interesting one because it was more about you know disappointing others. And I smiled because I was particularly concerned about my parents, and it's interesting because they were the last ones to find out, about my decision to leave the corporate world. Ad the reason why is because I just felt that , they you know, I'm a daughter of Spanish immigrants who came to Switzerland in the 70s. They had to sacrifice a lot to give me the opportunity to study, go to university. And I just felt, oh my gosh, you know, I'm going to disappoint them because I might not be successful in my next career chapter. So I would think these were two very prominent fears. Once I went over, because to be very clear, I had a coach myself, and I went through the decision process with my coach, and I felt no, I'm not going to throw away my career, I'm just simply repurposing my experience and my learnings, in a in a different way. And I'm not going to disappoint others because those who really care about me and this applies to my parents as well will continue to support me. So after that period, there were two other fears actually that became quite prominent. And the first one was more about really the fear of unknown, right? Because when you move from the corporate world to the entrepreneurial world, I mean you're dealing with a lot of unknowns, you don't get, you know the security of monthly salary, you I was asking myself, am I going to have my own clients? so there was that element of the fear of unknown. And then there was another element of the fear of losing my own identity, because especially when I was in that transition period, I felt, okay, I don't longer belong to the corporate world,, but I'm also not yet a well-established coach. So there was that transition period where I felt like I'm not there and neither here, right? So it was emotionally actually quite intense.

Sue 7:18

Yeah that comes through because we don't know ourselves sometimes when we're in the middle of these transitions.

Araceli 7:26

Exactly. Yeah.

Sue 7:27

Jon, how about for you? What do you remember?

Jon 7:31

So I think there's probably two overriding emotions. I think the first one, as Araceli said, was that fear of I guess partly it was judgment of other people and also self-judgment. That resonated exactly, those two feelings. You know, what will people think? I work for a company with a great brand, I've worked really hard to get here, it's a very secure career etc. But I think the second emotion was excitement. I think that's sort of what reminds you about taking a risk, about taking a big change. And I think there's probably a part of me for a long time who thought, you know, I've always battled with, do I really want to keep doing what I'm doing? You know, that eternal question, what do I really want to do? Do I really want to keep doing this? And I think I could have quite easily, well, I absolutely could have stayed, being an investment banking recruiter, you know, stayed in that space for a long, long time, for my whole career. And maybe it'd have broadened and I could have gone into different things within that world. But there was part of me that always wanted something where I could have more personal impact. So that second emotion was I think excitement of actually almost standing up and saying, No, I am going to do my own thing, I'm going to do something different, I'm going to challenge myself, I'm going to take a risk. So t's and then you know I still get that now, I still remind myself of that now. You know, when you know, even in the tougher times, I think, well, actually, by making these decisions, this is what I get. Like this is this is why I do it. And you know, there's and you know, all those benefits that come with challenging yourself to do something different.

Sue 9:13

Yeah, and again, I'm hearing that that idea of the riskiness involved, that's coming through there. And from both of you, that idea about what others might think about this change that's going to come through. For me, I don't know if I had so much the what others might think. I think initially for me, because in my very first career days, I'd chosen a pathway that my parents didn't want me to take, which was to you know go and explore my love of horses and riding and and working there for five years. For me, that what would others think was slightly easier because I was going to move towards something that they thought was a bit more what they were thinking. So I don't remember that. But I remember the thinking about will I lose myself. I'm going to go now into an office job, which it felt a little bit like death to me, it was like going away from I had to get out of education, so I just needed to be out in the air and doing things, when I was 18, 19. And when I finally went back in to an office environment at 24, I was thinking, oh my goodness, is it possible to die of boredom? But literally, I managed to sort of go through that. So I think that loss of self also resonates for me. Later on in my career, when I changed, I think I'd got a bit more pragmatic about life. And so actually, some of my fears were around the pragmatic things. I remember having a lot of spreadsheets about finances and could I afford or when will I be able to afford to make this change, and what really do I need financially to keep me going at the moment, and when can I take that risk, I suppose, of moving into unknown finances, which is generally what is part of you know opening up a new business. I also definitely concur with the loss of the community which I know Araceli you were talking about there. being part of a big corporate, as I was, I was at Pfizer and I was involved in a senior HR global role, many times working on big transformations, etc., across 20 years. It was frantically busy, and I used to worry, goodness me, what am I going to be like the first morning I wake up and I'm no longer like being pulled in seven different directions? You yearn for not to be in that position sometimes when you're in it, and yet when you're not in it, how's that going to feel? Is it going to feel empty? Am I going to miss the needs of others all around me? So I wonder whether just for we could move the conversation into what's helped us to perhaps address some of those fears? And Araceli, you were beginning to mention coaching there. So, maybe there's more to say on that, but also what else? Perhaps Jon, we'll start with you this time. What what helped you, would you say?

Jon 12:20

I think one of the key things, and it kind of come from coaching, but I think taking the time to think, what is it that's really important? It's a simple question, but one will always be asking. And I literally and it's before I'd really experienced a huge amount of formal coaching, and it's something I've sort of evolved to do with my clients now, but I've got a huge bit of paper and I wrote out, what are the things I really want in my life? And it's all different sort of categories and areas, and it's very visual, very informal, I'm terrible at drawing, but getting things out of your head then being able to say, Well, actually, I really like the people side of things, like that's what I enjoy about my recruiting career, like that's one of the things that's important. I like helping people, I like making an impact. Also, things around in terms of my life, I was like, Well, you know, and I trained as a coach when I had a young family, and I was like, Well, I want more time for family, I want more time for things that are important to me. So I think that reminder of like what's the benefit, like why, you know, that big why, that was a really important piece to remind myself of through the whole process.

Sue 13:30

Yeah, so really getting connected to that. And I hear you're saying did it in quite a really creative way. So you were literally getting it down on paper in in drawing form, etc.

Jon 13:40

Yeah, absolutely. And I think lots of things we we think about all the time, and it's at the back of our mind or the front of our mind, and it keeps us awake at night. But I think there is something really powerful in just like almost like doing a brain dump and then just pausing and looking back and thinking, you know, especially for the questions, I think corporate life's very good at keeping us busy, it's very good at focusing us on the job in front of us, the company we work for, work can fill all of our waking hours if we let it. So this idea for me of pausing and saying, okay, well, what haven't I asked myself? And then a visualisation exercise, if you will, was really powerful to be able to say, ah, these are some of the things that are important. This is why I want to, you know, I am prepared to take step away from the pension and the bonus, etc.

Sue 14:30

Yeah, so I'm hearing you . In my mind it I'm picturing you kind of almost looking for what are the threads that take you through into the world of that new career?

Jon 14:42

Yeah, absolutely.

Sue 14:43

That that resonates with me because I think I've done that before. It's you can't really jump from one rocky boat to another. You need a little bit of a plank, a few u some things to walk through.

Jon 14:54

Absolutely.

Sue 14:56

You mentioned coaching. Can you say either a little bit more about that or other things that might have helped you?

Araceli 15:03

Yeah, of course, absolutely. I mean, coaching was critical for me in the transitioning stage, and in the form of, on one side I had my young coach, but also I did the second level of my coaching training, the professional practitioner diploma, which was a great opportunity also to do some further self-reflection and to Jon's point earlier to, to reconnect to my own purpose and remind myself, every time when I have still today, when I have my moments of self-doubt, to remind myself why did I leave the corporate world in the first instance? And for me, it's around really two key elements. So on one side is because I was very keen to make an impact, to help others grow, develop, to make leaders, better leaders. So that that inspirational element is very important for me. And then there is another one which is more about empowerment. The freedom that you get when you are in an entrepreneurial job. Because the reality is that yes, I did have a senior role in the corporate world, but you're still part of a machinery, right? So for me, and I also similar to Jon, I'm actually a quite visual person. So I did some exercises as well to visualise my own purpose. And during the practitioner, the professional practitioner diploma, actually, I was thinking about if I was an animal, which animal I would be. And I started to think more like of an eagle because of the idea of the strength, the courage to embrace change, particularly the vision, the view from the top so that you don't lose track of your own purpose. But I mixed that view with a little bird to remind also myself that actually a little bird under the rain, to remind myself that it's also okay, to show some vulnerability. It is okay actually to remind myself as well, to be kind to myself also when there are moments of self-doubt. So definitely the coaching element has been key to help me during the transition period. I would highlight also the importance of networking. For me, it was actually since day one, I started to expand my network. I started to meet coaches who are well established, and therefore I could learn from them and they gave me also the energy to think, I could be like them. And in general, also entrepreneurs have joined some networks that they are focused on the entrepreneurship path, which has been very interesting as well to support each other, and have some emotional support around us. And then I would consider a third element, which for me has been key during the transition period, which is also daily journaling. When I was going through the process, I was starting my day, I use a journal that is called the six minutes journal. It's three minutes in the morning and three minutes in the evening, And it's has been really helpful because you get up in the morning and you think, first of all, about what you should be grateful for, secondly, about what you you be doing today to make your day great. So you remind yourself of your own purpose, and thirdly, with some positive affirmation. So, I'm going to do great, in this coaching session, or , something that lifts your spirit up, and then in the evening there is a little bit more of self-reflection and learnings as well. So I would say these three key elements of coaching, networking, and daily journaling have been key for me.

Sue 19:12

Thank you, Araceli. It's great to hear those tips, and I'm just thinking to myself, what helps me along the way? And I think one of the one tool I use a lot when I'm thinking about big changes is something that was shared to me by a co-faculty I was working with years ago back in the 90s, and literally is to take a piece of paper and make it into four quadrants with a pencil and to have positive gain, negative gain, positive loss, negative loss. And I really love that kind of working my way around that tool because it reminds me that with every change comes benefits and disadvantages, when we move from something, there is going to be something that we will lose that we'd have preferred not to lose, perhaps. But also there might be something that we will gain that we might have preferred not to gain. Mine might be having to do my own marketing, that's definitely something I would have preferred not to gain, you know. But then on the other side, you can also think about okay, what have I lost that I'm really pleased to lose, that I'm pleased to walk away from, and also what am I gaining that I'm really pleased to be gaining now? And you mentioned both of you really the empowerment and the excitement and and being more in control maybe of your own business. So yeah, that's one tool I can remember using. So you mentioned Araceli back there a little way back about people might be having doubts, or many people will call it impostor syndrome, or we might call it failings of confidence, something like that. What would you say to somebody who's thinking about making a big career change and yet they're riddled with these types of doubts?

Araceli 21:18

So I've developed what I call a five-step framework to help my clients navigate career transition. And depending on where the client is, we might not necessarily start with the first step. But in a nutshell, the first step is really to look at the purpose and the values, right? When someone is considering, for example, a career change, like for example, in my case, right, empowerment was, you know, for me a key element, right? The idea, as you said earlier, of being more in control of of my career, but also be a little bit more the master of my own destiny and have the freedom of, for example, today being with you in this podcast was for me a key element. So the first step is really to look at what are the key values and the four what's the purpose, what motivates and makes my clients happy. Then the second element is more about taking small steps, we don't need to get up one day in the morning and all the sudden. I mean, there is an element you mentioned earlier, for example, look at the financial side, understand a little bit more, okay, what is the, you know, from a financial point of view, how much do you need to earn for you to carry on with your life as an example. So, or small steps can be, I don't know, maybe you're interested in moving into different sectors, maybe you can start to do some training, you know, to get the sense. Then the third element is more about network and the importance of building a supportive network. There is a lot also can be done in that regard. And then the last two steps are more about self-care. So the importance also of taking care of your own wellbeing and self-compassion, which goes back to the point that I mentioned earlier about sometimes I have clients that are very driven, they have a very clear view about what's the purpose, what are the key values that match to them, they start to take some small steps, but sometimes they forget about the importance of also building some resilience and being kind to themselves. So it might not happen, from one day to another, that you can make a shift in your career. So that's a little bit, the way also how help my clients to to navigate career transition.

Sue 23:56

Jon, how about for you on this this topic of self-doubts creeping in?

Jon 24:02

So I think a lot of what Araceli said is similar to to how I approach things. And I think need to look at most big topics around purpose, etc. I think specifically around self-doubt. I think there's something about reminding yourself about the why, as I mentioned earlier, like why, what is the benefit? Why do you want to make this change? I think there's something really powerful about actually going out and validating things and speaking to people. So one of the exercises I sometimes do with people, especially where maybe confidence is low or the risk, the fear of making a change is holding back proper exploration, is to get people to go out and get direct feedback from people they trust. So go out with a series of questions and say, you know, what are my superpowers? What could you see me doing differently? So I think often if we get in our own heads and our saboteur voices are very loud and they're holding us back, I think there's something very powerful to get external validation. So although you know sometimes people want a very quick fix, but there's a real benefit to say something that could really help is start asking people, like, what could you see me doing, or what are my what are my real strengths? And then what you can do is then look at themes and say, Oh, well, actually, a few different people I used to work with and friends have all said this is something I'm good at. So then you know, that that inner voice that often can mislead us and often hold us back, you can directly challenge it with data. And a lot of the people I work with are in tech and finance and sometimes applying an analytical approach to some quite deep, thought-provoking questions can be quite a useful way to say, okay, actually, I can explore this option, this is what people are saying, I can do this, and then therefore the self-doubt, you know, it's not pushing people to make a decision either way, but it's saying, right, let's get some data so you can validate what you want to do.

Sue 26:07

And I love that sort of evidence-based approach, and that was coming to my mind as well. Because, if we think about the team that's in our new career, in our new business, if we've got a team member on board who is saying you won't be any good at this, you really won't. Would you actually employ someone who is going to sit around and saying that on your team if you were having a second person? And yet, so many times we allow ourselves to be that person on the team that's running ourselves down, that's stopping ourselves from doing things. And I think I would say, if we've got that person on our team, what do they need? What does that person need? And I love the idea that you're saying, what would others say from external to that person? How can we work with the fears that are coming through to say, well, are they real? Because maybe they are. Are they real and do they need to be taken note of? Or actually, are they much smaller than the way that they're being dramatised by this naysaying team member that we have on board? So I would say get to know your naysaying team member, and having help with that, having coaching, doing some therapy, whatever it is you feel might work for you, might also be a good thing if you're in that place. But yes, get to grips with the naysayer. All right, so Araceli, what what else do you think is important in the journey of a career change?

Araceli 27:42

I think it's very important to celebrate achievements and small steps as well somehow we are wired a way where we tend to focus more on what we could lose instead of focusing on what we could gain and what we are starting to gain. So for me, the importance of celebrating achievements is key. And then I would say also something that I really like with the element of coaching in career transition is that it creates accountability. And I was thinking the other day, I recently started to coach as well startups funders, and it's part of so acceleration programmes for those startups to, for example, scale the business. And so we meet every week for 90 minutes, and this has been very good because it creates this level of accountability where the founder in this case being coached, feels like okay, week by week I need to make some progress, right? I'm willing, to start to put some of my learnings into action and I like this element of partnership and accountability that coaching creates.

Sue 29:06

Yeah, I'm thinking that as a new coaching business, I'm both a coach and an entrepreneur. So I would benefit from being in all seats in that meeting. Yes, absolutely. How about you, Jon?

Jon 29:22

So I think some of the key things, well, one of the words I use all the time with clients who are making going through a career change is consistency. I think generally whatever the goal is, there's something very powerful about working out what is your new way of exploring something going to be, or your new way of whether it's working where you are and making an internal change, or if it's making a big external change, lots of it, we've talked about some of the big things to consider, but there's something about consistent behavior and action that gets you closer to where you need to get to. So some of the work I often do is around almost like reverse engineering and saying, okay, so what is the big plan? If you were to fast forward, X amount of time, what does that look like? And what do you need to start doing now? Like what are the little steps you need to take? Because I think it's sometimes with coaching at the start, there's lots of enthusiasm, and people come on board and they're like, right, I'm investing in coaching, big change will happen. But where the coach really adds value is that human accountability to keep going when it's tough. Whether it's networking or exploring a new industry or gaining a new skill, being able to, you know, it's not just like you click your fingers and it's done. Like it comes from lots of small changes. So often challenging people to say, well, what does what does your week look like? What does your month look like? What would happen if you planned out more about where you were spending your time and energy? And then now, from that consistent action, like that's what you know, the most successful clients I've worked with, I would say, generally, is where however they do it, they're able to keep doing it. It doesn't have to be click your fingers and you become a yoga instructor the next day after working in banking. But there's something so so powerful about small actions regularly.

Sue 31:11

And it's interesting the combination of what you're both saying there, because Jon, you're talking about, identify small actions that can help and do them keep at it, keep doing them. And Araceli, you're talking about celebrate, and celebrate when things come right, when you've made achievements, and even maybe a week of doing those small things, can be something that you can celebrate because it will move you, further towards things. I'm just wondering for for both of you what you might have learned about yourselves through making these big career transitions.

Jon 31:50

It's a good question. I think part of it you learn more about your own identity and what you really want to do. I think in corporate life it's very, you know, you turn up, you know what your responsibilities are, you'll always have a boss or key stakeholders of some sort who are, no matter how senior you are, there'll be people dictating what action you need to take to some extent. I think there's something really empowering about the freedom to say, okay, I can choose to do whatever I want today. I can, I've got massive, massive control there. I think the flip side of that that I've learned is again the benefits of consistency, of having systems in place for how I work. I think that is it's always a challenge, for an entrepreneur or if you're running your own business. It definitely took me a while to decompress from corporate life. I was expecting hundreds of emails to keep coming in every day, I was used to hundreds of emails every day, used to lots and lots of different people wanting my time and wanting to speak to me or wanting me to do something for them or me wanting something from somebody else. So it's almost ongoing. There is this process of allowing myself to take a breath, as I especially as I get periods of getting really busy and approaching capacity where I think, okay, what do I want to focus on?

Sue 33:09

It's a sort of new awareness as you're finding yourself in that new environment and new circumstances. Thank you, Jon. How about for you, Araceli?

Araceli 33:19

Well, I've definitely learned about one more time, really the importance of taking risks in your career. And you were talking about or touching a little bit on this earlier. So I always say also when I'm in conversations with my clients that comfort is the enemy of growth. So I truly believe that when you are in this position where you feel like, hmm, I'm getting really uncomfortable, well, there might be something really good in it, right? And so the ability of going for it because you feel like is the right way to go, because you feel like you're getting a lot of positive energy coming out of it, I think is very , for me, it's been , very inspiring because believe you know life is too short, right? To get up in the morning and feeling like you might be stuck or you might no longer be in fulfilled by a job that you were fulfilled for many, many years, right? So I think there is this element of embracing risk that has been very important for me. And then I would say the second point, what I've learned with this career transition, is something that I think I underestimate or undervalue a little bit when I took this decision, which is, I mentioned earlier that what brought me into coaching was my desire to help people grow, develop, which has been a key motivator in my career. But I've also realised there is a big element of change, and I have dedicated all of my career to transformation. And I've realised what actually that is extremely rewarding to help others in this regard, because what is more transformative than helping others to have a more fulfilling career and ultimately a more fulfilling life. So, that deep sense of reward has been for me a key learning experience during my career transition.

Sue 35:32

Yes, and I can identify with that. I too really enjoy that part of coaching when somebody you know has taken the brave step to come forward and to say, okay, I think I'm seeking a change here. That in even in itself is that first step. And I thoroughly enjoy being on that journey. It's a real privilege to be on that journey with someone as they explore that t change. For myself, what did I learn? I'm just thinking, definitely learned. Well, I love the coaching, and I'm not so keen on business development. So that I think for me is my weak point, and it's where I've needed most help, you know, and where I've needed to reach out and give it a bit more intentional thought. To be with coaches, to do the coaching, to mentor coach, etc., is my natural, you're saying, place of comfort. That's where I'd like to spend all my time. So yes, my place where I want to spend less time is is probably around the business development. I'm wondering for each of you, where what do you think your your weakest points are in this new life you find yourselves in?

Araceli 36:50

I have one weak point, which is actually asking for help. I'm still struggling, I've always been very independent in my life. And I just feel that sometimes, I remember when I started to set up my own business, yeah, had to really overcome this fear of asking for help to ask a few people, for example, take a look at my marketing material as an example, and let me know what you think. Because you brought up a very important point, Sue, which is, when you start the path as a coach, you really focus on your coaching skills and your coaching experience. And I truly, enjoy my coaching engagement since day one. But it's equally important if you're running your own business that you complement that with your entrepreneurial skills, right? That you focus on the marketing, on the sales, and so on. And for those elements, I felt that in several occasions it's been, and I'm learning, but it's been very good to ask for help. But every time I need to ask for help, I'm for example launching now a masterclass which is focused on career transition, and I've started to ask a few people to spread the word as an example, which I think is the right thing to do, right? To help you or to help me in this case with this journey. But yeah, sometimes it's a fear that I still need to overcome.

Jon 38:26

I think one of the things for me is like new shiny object syndrome because I run my own business, like I love the freedom to, you know, I could change completely how I work, who I want to coach, what sort of work I want to do. I'm somebody who's always got lots and lots of ideas, and I'm very good at generating ideas. So I need to sort of be really conscious of focusing on what are the things that the business needs, so things around consistent marketing, around checking in with what do clients really want? What will clients pay for? Having that as a core focus day to day, I think it's really important because, as I said, , when there's lots of I'm like, oh, should I start going down group coaching route or should I start promoting a different programme or should I push the accelerator on different type of corporate coaching? All of those things take time and energy, and you don't want to be spread too thin. I think a useful phrase I like is no for now or not right now. So I'm not saying no, I'll never do these things. One of the things I want to do is I want to coach people on a chairlift. I want to sit with a senior leader on a chairlift in the mountains and say, look around you like what's really important. And then so that's when you know running retreats in the mountains is something that's exciting and appealing. But then also actually when I zoom out where I am right now, I do a lot of childcare support for the kids. So I'm like, well, can they all work at the same time? And because I'm greedy and want to do everything, I need to allow myself to pause and just put the brakes on on different ideas I have and focus, , just that consistency, just have some of the core activities I'm doing regularly for the business, and then start, pivot when when appropriate.

Sue 40:21

Yeah, I love the these two ideas that are coming through of keeping aware and pivot where appropriate, and as you were saying there, Araceli, the importance of asking for help. I think for me it's about almost just thinking through, okay, well, you know, if this wasn't working, what does that actually look like? So that I've got an idea about when would be the right point to stop doing this and maybe to try something else, because otherwise I might just have that voice just sitting there all the time saying, Are you sure this is working? But actually, I need to have the markers in my mind, I'll know it's not working when, and if I can think those through, that helps me quieten the worries in the meantime and stop distracting me from what it is I need to do. I'm just thinking we've got about 10 minutes more here, potentially, for this conversation for the three of us. What question have we not posed, do you think, that could be really important for somebody considering a big career change?

Jon 41:38

I guess one thing that some of my clients say is it's almost like the where to start. Quite often there's almost like a scale, like one side of a scale is where people they're not they know something's not right with where they are, but they've no idea where they want to go. The other end of a scale, they're like, Jon, I want to do X, Y, and Z. And I think Araceli, you mentioned it, in terms of your five steps, where you meet them on those five steps. So I think sometimes I speak to people and it feels so far away to make a change from what they're doing. So I think this idea of like, where can people start? And I think some of the things that I personally did and I quite often do with clients in that space is that those early steps, it's not doing your CV and going out networking, and it's saying, Well, what is you know, let's just pause. It's almost like this this real idea of like taking a breath and saying, Well, what is really important? What is it? I like the exercise you described Sue with the quadrants, and I do I do a similar one, I call the love hate exercise, and it looks at what have you enjoyed, what have you really disliked, what are you good at, but you don't enjoy, because that often shapes a lot of as you progress your corporate career, especially, that defines often what you do, and then suddenly people go, Oh, hang on, I don't enjoy 70% of my job. And then the final bit that's the exciting bit is what do you really want to do? What do you want to do more of? So I think just taking the time to pull that question of where do you start, I think's a useful one.

Araceli 43:07

I think and just following on on Jon's point, I was having a conversation recently with one of my clients and , debating what comes first, courage or confidence, right? I do think that courage comes first because it's that small step that can unlock a brand new journey, but then obviously confidence gets built, step by step. I do think that sometimes it's about helping our clients to take just a tiny small step, to be brave to take a tiny small step that will give them the possibility then to boost that confidence by taking more and more steps afterwards. For example, last year I worked with one of my clients that wanted to move to a different field in the sustainability space. And in that case, we started to look at small steps like joining, for example, industry events around that topic. And that's how, for example, she started to build a new network in that context. And little steps like that gave her actually the confidence at the end, to leave the prior organisation and to join a new organisation with our sustainability team. So I do think that sometimes there are some very, very little steps that can really unlock a brand new journey.

Sue 44:42

Yeah, and I'm really hearing that sort of working with what the clients got, and it reminds me of the co-active model. You know, all our clients are creative, resourceful, and whole. And I think that for me is where I'd often like to start with them in terms of trusting themselves. That if they're thinking this, they're the best people to know this, they're the best people to be in charge of their lives, the best people to be making these decisions, the best people to be acting on this. So we start with kind of where that's at and where their energy's at. Just thinking about drawing this conversation to a close, I'm wondering both of you, and I'll try and answer my own question as well, what you might acknowledge yourselves for in terms of, and if I use like a pharmaceutical industry metaphor where I came from, every medication or therapy has a sort of a thing that they call the active ingredient. It's the thing, obviously, there's a lot put around that so that you can take these medications, but there is an active ingredient in there, which is the thing that really hits the spot. And what might be the active ingredient that you would acknowledge yourselves for in terms of making a career change? And I think for me, just while I give you a moment to do that, I think it is just knowing myself, trusting myself that you know, if I'm thinking that's the best thing for me, then no doubt it is.

Jon 46:13

Yeah.

Sue 46:14

How about for you too?

Jon 46:16

I think there's something about this belief that, in some ways like life is short and your career can be very long if you if you're not going down the right path, or if you let it, if you let your career control you. So it's something I say to all of my clients. I say, be the hero of your own career. Like nobody else is going to do it for you. I think there's something empowering, and if I look back at some of the steps I've made, I think there is something about it saying, right, I can't, I am going to take ownership of this. I'm not a victim here. We always have more choices than than we think. So I think there's something very powerful about, I think once it clicks with, you know, certainly for me it did, and then with clients when they say, Well, I can do something differently. I don't have to be defined by what I did. I think another really useful thing to remember is you don't delete your previous life and experience. When you make a change, you've still got all this experience and stories from what you did previously. And so actually, when you look at risk, it's not as binary as oh, zero I stay in banking and I'm unhappy, or one, I take this massive risk and I never earn any money again. It doesn't need to be as black and white as that, and you don't delete your previous experience.

Sue 47:30

All right, Araceli, how about for you?

Speaker 1 47:33

I think for me, the key ingredient is about staying true to yourself. And with that, I mean, especially where there are difficult decisions that need to be taken. I used to tell also my old team members when I was also in that position in the corporate world that it was important for me to get up in the morning, look at myself in the mirror, and think I've taken the right decision. And it's the same with any type of career transition, where you feel like you're listening to yourself, you're listening to your own needs and to what your inner compass is telling you, and your intuition, as you brought up earlier. So then I think, if you look yourself in the mirror in those situations and you're like, yeah, it is the right step to take, it's a beautiful moment.

Sue 48:26

Thank you both so much. We are at the end of our time, but I've so enjoyed meeting you both and talking with you both about this really interesting subject. I'm sure we could have gone on and on for a lot, lot longer. Hopefully, some of what we've said has been of interest to those of you listening. Please do, I'm sure each one of us would say, you'd find us on LinkedIn, and please do reach out for us if you'd like to continue this discussion at all. And thank you to AoEC for letting us come together and have this discussion today. And good luck to any of those that are considering a career change. We encourage you to, I think the theme is to be true and trust yourselves and back yourselves. Thank you.