Episode 15: Understanding strong workplace cultures in B Corp Certified® organisations

In this special B Corp Month episode, we delve into the stories of some of the UK’s top-performing B Corp certified organisations in the Worker category.

Through conversations with their HR leaders, we uncover what sets their workplace cultures apart, the innovative approaches they’ve taken to employee development, and the practices that underpin their outstanding employee engagement and satisfaction. Join us to explore the strategies that help these purpose-driven organisations excel and lead the way in fostering exceptional workplaces.

 You can link with the speakers here:

Karen Smart, head of consultancy/senior faculty at the AoEC – host

Victoria Birks, head of operations, Socius – guest panellist

Beth Gaudin, director and head of people, Forster Communications – guest panellist

About Socius:

Socius is an impactful developer with a £2.5bn development pipeline across major UK towns and cities including Bristol, Brighton, Cambridge, Milton Keynes and London. Privately-owned and certified B Corp, Socius partners with global investors to balance profit and purpose whilst delivering inspiring and sustainable mixed-use places.

About Forster Communications:

Turning your sustainability ambitions into action, Forster Communications is 100% focused on tackling climate change, driving social justice and improving lives. It combines insights, experience and connections to solve complex communications challenges, address barriers that are preventing progress, engage relevant audiences and deliver measurable change for its clients, their stakeholders and society. Forster Communications works with global and local businesses to accelerate positive change through communications strategy and planning, thought leadership, employee engagement and campaigning. With a deep understanding of social and environmental issues and live, cross-sector connections, the company can help you move from wanting to make a difference, to real action and results.

To find out more about coach training and coaching, please visit the AoEC’s website www.aoec.com.

Transcript

Karen 0:06

Welcome to the AoEC podcast. I'm Karen Smart, head of consultancy at the AoEC, and this morning it's all about understanding strong workplace cultures in B Corp certified organisations. And this is really in celebration of all things B Corp and specifically for B Corp Month. I'm very delighted to welcome two guests speakers. I have Victoria Burke, who's head of operations at Socius, and we'll hear all about that in a moment. And I'm also delighted to welcome Beth Gordon, she's the head of people at Forster and we've selected to work with both Socius and Forster Communications for this podcast, particularly on the basis of their higher than average results relating to employees and engagement. So that's really the theme of today's conversation. So if I might invite you in turn to introduce yourselves and tell us a bit your two companies. So if I start with you, Victoria.

Victoria 1:22

Yeah, hello everyone. My name's Victoria, head of operations at Socius. We are a mixed-use property developer based in London and we have projects across the UK. We describe ourselves as an impactful developer and we set ourselves up with B Corp in mind as an aspiration get the accreditation in due course. But as people will probably appreciate, it's difficult to get accredited when you first set up a company. So we've been accredited for a couple of years, and luckily we're a small company and we were able to embed a lot of good practices within our workers category, which helped us achieve a really good score.

Karen 2:11

That's great, thank you. And, over to you, Beth.

Beth 2:16

Hi, thanks for having me. I, as you say, work for Forster Communications. We are a social change organisation, so we work with organisations globally to help them achieve their ambitions around sustainability and helping to protect and improve lives in some form. We've been around for nearly 30 years now, and we were really set up as a purpose-driven business from the outset. So when B Corp launched in the UK, we immediately knew that was going to be for us and joined up as a founding B Corp. So we've been along the journey for a long time and communications generally, but you know, especially at Forster, people really are at the core of what we do. And we've always really recognised that and worked really hard to make sure that we prioritise their physical and mental wellbeing as much as we can. Communications, especially service-based communications, can be quite tough. So we just try to be aware of that as possible.

Karen 3:23

And from an AoEC perspective, our motivation in inviting you to be here today is really all about our commitment to our values as well. We're relatively new as a B Corp, but the essence of coming here was really all about exploring what it is that enables some B Corps, even though even to get the B Corp accreditation is an amazing accolade, it isn't straightforward, it is not tick-box exercise. And then within that, there are some high performers, and your two organisations fell into that category, particularly in terms of employee engagement. And so that's given that that's our interest with learning coaching skills, that's really the motivation for being here. And it would be great to hear from each of you a little more about your journey or what it is that you think engages your people so effectively in a way that others can learn from, perhaps.

Victoria 4:28

Well, I always feel that your people are your your sort of highest credential, really, in business, and especially in property where it is all about people. And I think there's sort of a misrepresentation in the property industry that it's all deals, deals, deals, it's all about money, it's pretty ruthless, dah, dah, blah, blah. Actually, we like to step away from that, and we used B Corp as a bit of a critical friend as well to really double down on what we believe in is makes a good successful company and how we can invest in our people because recruiting is a pain. We want to keep people, we want to move with the times, be agile, listen to them. And I think they're your biggest asset. So we really leaned into that, and I found that the whole process with B Corp and filling out that sort of worker section, it's quite weighty. I quite enjoyed it because it really made you stop and think. And where there was an improvement to be made, as a small company, we could do that quite easily, which I think there's a bit of a misconception about big companies having big deep pockets to invest in their employees with all lots of amazing benefits. But I think really listening to your people is key.

Beth 5:52

Yeah, that listening to people is really, really key, isn't it? And making sure that people across the organisation have have a voice. Forster has always tried to have quite a sort of flat structure in that sense, and you know, we all sit together, there's nobody off in their big office somewhere, so that we can sort of chat, and it can be quite hard to keep that temperature gauge up and you know, track how people are feeling. It can be quite easy to get that disconnect, I think. So it can be quite a lot of work to just make sure that you're constantly checking in and and sort of balancing the need to get work done and delivered with making sure that that your employees feel satisfied and engaged and happy and well along the way, which obviously those two things go hand in hand. You're not going to be able to deliver great work if your employees aren't engaged and happy. So it's you know business imperative as much as it is just the sort of the right thing to do. And I think at Forster, but we're lucky in terms of keeping people engaged in the sense that we are a purpose-driven agency. So people tend to be very passionate about the work that we do and have come to work for us specifically for that. So, from that perspective, it's about harnessing that in the right way, making sure that we are protecting them in some instances if we work with quite difficult topics or sensitive topics, and how can we make sure that that doesn't bleed over and we're sort of creating burnout in people, and really just making sure that we are thinking practically about how best to keep people from working too hard.

Victoria 7:24

Yeah, it's there's such a fine balance, isn't it? Between you want to give people the reward and the nice benefits, you want them engaged, you want them to be at work, but it's a real sort of tipping point sometimes where we all all have those peak moments where it's all consuming. And it's just about those check-ins with people, like taking someone for a coffee, even though it's really busy. Are you okay? You know, just knowing your team, I think, is key. Having that open door policy, which is all very well, like some people say it, it doesn't really mean anything. But I think that open it really does mean something to employees and that they can feel that they can talk to their line managers, even you know, the MD, he'll sit in the office with all of us and check in with people. And I think at the moment it's very topical, isn't it? About the sort of these big companies cracking the whip to get people back into the office four days in or five days in. And it just doesn't sit well because you think where's the engagement with your team? How are you how are you managing that? And how are you going to get the best out of people? Because they would be happy about being told what to do for a start.

Karen 8:41

Well, I think you know, as a coaching organisation, one of the things that we see is that a lot of organisations have a kind of authoritarian voice. It's almost parental. And I think something that's common within the B Corp movement is having that adult-to-adult conversation with staff. And like you said, that example of taking someone to coffee to check in that they're okay. What are some of the things do you think that have really helped your organisations to get that above? I can't remember, sorry, I can't remember the exact scores, but I know that you've outperform other companies in terms of workers and employee engagement. What other examples do you have of things that have contributed to that high score?

Beth 9:33

I think one of the things about being a purpose-driven agency is that we are always restless. So it is a constant sort of evolution for us of thinking about what's the next thing, how can we be providing things that our employees need, or you know, what's the next thing that's going to be required. One of the things that we've done that's been very successful just on a practical level is we have active minutes. And this is all going back to my point about desperately trying to get people to stop working too hard. We actually incentivise people to take time away from their desks and be active, and that can be obviously whatever that means for them, from yoga to walking to running, swimming, cycling, whatever it might be and then you get for every hour that you do that a day, you get that back in holiday annual leave.

Karen 10:28

Oh wow, that's a real well-being incentive. Yeah, yeah.

Beth 10:32

So you can get up to two additional days of annual leave if you do an hour a day. That's been really popular. And I said more so actually, I mean, obviously the holiday is a lovely incentive, but actually just because it was allowing people, and that started in COVID when we were all secluded because there wasn't much else to be doing. And we started a sort of virtual running club almost where we would go and all do it at the same time, send photos of everybody doing it, and that sort of just then carried on.

Karen 10:59

That's fantastic. And I saw in your impact report that your active minutes went up in your last report by 11%. So I'm sure that also pays dividends in terms of just mental wellbeing, physical health, heart health, and all of that also contributes to effective work because I imagine your sick days are also, I can't remember the number from the sick days, but that number really stood out. And yeah, I imagine that that's reduced as well.

Beth 11:35

We were for a while there Britain's healthiest Workplace for in the small business category, we are very active, I think I think part of that was our head of ops runs ultra marathons. It tends to trickle down, doesn't it? But yes, it I think it definitely does, and it creates just a slightly different atmosphere. And I think that because we have incentivised for getting away from the desks, it does mean that people tend to take lunch breaks sort of just during the day. And that culturally is really applauded. Certainly, I've worked in other places where if you leave to get lunch, there was a slight sense of while you were gone, this has happened, which just doesn't exist at Forster because it's literally incentivised.

Karen 12:22

So no pressure, Victoria, ultramarathon.

Victoria 12:27

I'm like racking my brains thinking of something. We have just introduced a working from anywhere policy. So this really is for people with any kind of caring responsibilities, whether that's parents or children, anyone who might be living with them that needs help. So two weeks a year, you can work from anywhere. And that also sort of leans into our flexible working policy, but just gives a bit more. We're generous with annual leave and we offer give back days for volunteering. But just having those extra couple of weeks to cover things like some holidays, it just makes people sort of grateful, really, that they don't have to be tied to a desk to an office. Also part of the fora group, so we're co-working. We have an office within our building, but we encourage our team to work wherever it suits them best. So that can and we're out and about a lot because that's the nature of the industry. So we encourage our team to work from Cambridge, Bristol, Brighton, wherever it may be, and we're not checking in. People are grown-ups, we give them autonomy to manage their time. And if they need to drive to go and see a relative on a Friday afternoon, but they're doing calls in the car, that's fine. We're not precious about where people are, particularly. But having said that, everyone loves coming into the office and seeing each other, which is great. You sort of need that balance of freedom in a way, but also coming together as a team and collaborating. And we do also have class pass benefit, it's really popular. So we have a certain amount of credits per employee, and that's I find that class pass ticks a lot of boxes for wellness because it's not for some people, exercise isn't enjoyable, but they might want to do something else, like go and get a haircut or go and get a facial or a massage. And classpass is for everyone, I think. So most people have signed up to that and really appreciate the credit. Someone got lunch on it this week, which is great. They could go to eat active and have a nice salad that would normally cost 15 quid. I managed to get it on class pass.

Karen 14:48

Well, that sounds great. We're actually a virtual organisation, so we don't actually have an office. That's why I'm sitting here in a very B Corp way in my can't put the heating on or anything. So we we all work from home, and actually that's one of the challenges, I think, is finding that very human connection. And because of the coaching nature of what we do, there is a strong check-in culture. But one of the dynamic tensions that I think we have is not everyone is a coach, lots of people are, but lots of people are also not, and finding ways to benefit everyone and develop everyone without it necessarily being coaching something that we have to work at. But I think that the flexibility of being trusted to get on with work is is really essential, really, particularly when it's a values-driven organisation like ours are. So that's kind of all the good things. What is interesting to sort of explore what's more challenging for employee engagement and and how you manage that.

Beth 16:02

I think you've touched on one of the things actually just there is that even pre-COVID, we were really looking at flexible working in terms of homeworking and things like that as a way of working because that is clearly was always going to be the direction we were going in and then how we still maintain a really strong team culture and dynamic. That's obviously very important for us. We work in teams when we're delivering work for our clients, and we need to feel cohesive across the agency at the same time. So that I think was quite a difficult transition for us. We moved to doing 50% at home, 50% with clients who are in the office. And I think we just found different ways to make sure that we were connecting. So we offer a big lunch once a month in the office where everybody comes in free lunch, and we get to just spend some time together in a slightly less work-dominated way. We have away days every year where we can again spend some time together. And then also um created some working groups which are around the sort of like things like DEI, for example, which just allows the employees to have a lot more ownership around strategy and the way that the culture is shaped across the agency. I think that's been the main theme for us is just making sure that we maintain a really strong culture, even though we're shifting to slightly different patterns and ways of working. Yeah, thank you. How about you, Victoria?

Victoria 17:34

Yeah, I think in property it's there's various challenges with recruitment actually. It's a male-dominated industry, and also social mobility is an issue because within property, you get a lot of people who are have done similar journeys, gone to similar universities, their fathers might have worked in property, they've got some family connection that can get them into a certain organisation, they do the graduate programme, and it's sort of painting by numbers a little bit. So for us, we we really like to have a diverse team, and it's just making sure that's always in check through any kind of recruitment process and appealing to part-time workers as well. It's quite difficult to tick that box for part-time workers because most people in our team are full-time, and I think in London particularly, and in property, there's not many roles that can be done part-time. And we're not really big enough to have job shares, and I think that's a continual thing that we feel like we can do better on. And actually for property, we're quite well balanced between male and female. We've got a probably 60-40 split, which is not bad at all. But yeah, it's always on the radar. I think as long as we're it we're in tune with that, we can we just seek to improve.

Karen 19:11

And one of the things that I picked up from your impact report was your internship programme and the young woman who was working at the London Cancer Hub. So how much does that internship programme support all that you're trying to do?

Victoria 19:31

It's really interesting, actually, because we've had two interns over the past 12 months, and one of them found us through B Corp. She wanted to work for a B Corp company. So she had a mentor at university who suggested going onto the B Corp website, looking at companies who were in the built environment. She didn't have any connections to property or the built environment, so she didn't know where to start. And she just sent an email to Hello at Socius. And we always respond to people who send direct emails, because it's polite for a start, and because I think it takes quite a lot for people to do that. She sent a really nice cover email, really good CV, and we were like, if you can get here, like come up to London, then we'll happily meet you. And she was lovely. So we arranged three-month internship, and then we snapped her up and offered her a job because she's been brilliant and that's a real success story of why B Corp is is such a great thing to be part of because we wouldn't have found her I don't think without that.

Karen 20:42

So if there are any graduates or soon to be graduates listening, you need to get into the B Corp. Let's come back to you Beth - I could see you were going to share something then.

Beth 21:06

No, I was going to say I think internships are such an interesting and useful part of recruitment for us as well. One of the things that our industry struggles with is diversity, and we are no exception to that. One of the things that we're really looking to do around that is our recruitment and policies and how we do that. So we have dropped the requirement for any form of particular form of qualification, and also when we're running our internships, we guarantee interviews to anybody from minoritised backgrounds, and we've changed also the way that we ask people to respond. So, not necessarily CVs, but also they just answer some questions that are a bit broader. And we also share our interview questions ahead of time, which can really, really help if you're neurodiverse and also just if you're very nervous, which you know, if you're going for an internship, is like. So we've just really looked at the way that we recruit and how it can be operating unintentionally, because people can automatically assume things about your business and what you're looking for that are not necessarily true. So we've tweaked a load of that and we've run two completely open internships. We also work with the Taylor Bennett Foundation as well, but both of the open internships we've ended up hiring directly after that. It's been so successful for us, and we've found some incredible candidates who just don't have a background necessarily in communications but are just interested in in v it. So that's been really, really successful just thinking about it in a slightly different way.

Karen 22:44

And we don't know the Taylor Bennett Foundation. Can you tell me a bit more about that?

Beth 22:49

Well, of course, they're an organisation that u are designed exclusively to people find candidates from minoritised backgrounds. So they tend to have candidates that are still at university. It's a very sort of pipeline way of finding talent for the future, but they have absolutely brilliant candidates and run really interesting processes that again are really designed to make sure that they're very inclusive. And they've been fantastic and would really recommend working with them for anybody that's interested.

Karen 23:20

Thank you. That that sounds really interesting. And I guess as I listen to you explain your recruitment processes and the changes that you've made, what does that mean for your decision making process? Have you had to change the parameters for your decision criteria as well?

Beth 23:41

I think not probably so much when we've met people, because the the skill sets are still the skill sets, and you get a sense of what people are going to be able to do. But certainly in that sort of filter stage, I think it's more about for us, we were just not getting the diverse set of candidates through to us at any stage. It wasn't that they were dropping out, it was just that they were not applying. So for us, it became apparent that it was clearly something was off-putting in the way that we've designed our job specs or adverts, or we weren't advertising them in the right places, or as I said, the way that we were expecting people to send through were off-putting in some way. PR generally if you look into it, has not a great reputation or a diversity of people in it. Once you get above a certain level, it can be really hard to find candidates that don't all look and feel quite similar to each other. So for us, it we realised that a lot of that was going to be about making sure that we're recruiting at a more sort of junior end and helping people to come into the industry, which is again another reason that we wanted to work with Taylor Bennett, because even if people don't come back to us, they at least have had that and a really strong bit of work experience within the sector that they can then go on and find work elsewhere. And we do also go into universities to do talks as well to encourage people to enter or come to us if they've got questions around it.

Victoria 25:11

One important thing to say about internships is I think it they have to be paid, and it's amazing how many don't pay interns. You absolutely should. Um, all of years ago it was, oh, we'll just pay your travel, and that instantly cuts off a huge pool of people. You're then, you know, there's a certain demographic that really can only afford to be an intern. And it's seen as like one of these, like maybe perhaps someone that would go and do a ski season would then go and do a load of interning, you know, like and you want to appeal to everybody. And the good thing about interns is you know, they're they're normally very curious, they're not sure what they want to do, but they're a great resource and they're so enthusiastic, and you can do anything, and it you sort of want to push them and push them and see see what they come back with. They're uh we found them really successful in in Socius.

Speaker 3 26:12

Yeah, a living employer, so we play we pay all of our interns a London living wage, but yeah, you're so right Victoria, that it is just really hard, especially in London, if you want to move here as many people - as I wanted to do. And I did so many interviews when I first started trying to come here where they were like, Well, you you know, you a lot of people have worked for free for a year. How? Oh you know, I come from a very working class background, so , there's absolutely no way that that is ever going to happen. So it was just such a struggle to start my career in that way. So we try to be very mindful of that, it's such a good point.

Karen 26:53

And I guess at the minute we're focusing on the sort of early stages of career, and one of the things that we talk about a lot here at the AoEC is around the multi-generational workforce and how you manage to continue to appeal to everybody. We are all different so actually finding ways that appeal to the sort of differences between the generations and to have three, four generations in the workforces can be quite a challenge.

Victoria 27:29

It can, but it's an opportunity, I think, to have that spread of age between, I mean, interns are valuable because they they improve your diversity in a company and they bring freshness and new ideas and just a different way of looking at things. And we all need to grow and change at any age, I think. You've also got people who have been in the industries for a long time have so much experience to pass on, but also they don't have an ego after a certain point. You're not worried about someone stealing your job. Like you just want to share and you want to see people grow and you want to invest in them. And I think that's a massive part to success for any business is that you have to use the resources that you have, and it's not all about getting people who are optimum age in their 30s, done this, aspiring to be that. You know, you need a full spread to really get the best out of a whole team.

Karen 28:33

And in fact, the over 50 age group in many ways is often the overlooked workforce, and it can be very difficult for older people to get rehired, if they get made redundant or whatever.

Victoria 28:50

I think the myth or the the ambition of retirement, it's just gone. I don't know anybody is sort of using that as a milestone. And when I retire, I don't know many people that want to stop working. You have to kind of do something, I think. And retiring too soon is is a dangerous game.

Karen 29:14

Well, I think that speaks to the aligned purpose between worker and and work. I think people that want to retire perhaps have a misaligned personal individual purpose and a work purpose.

Beth 29:34

I do think as well that there are so many different types of personality within organisations. So obviously there are differences between the generations, but also just it's so important culturally to make sure that that you're embracing just different types of personalities as well. We've invested in something called disc training, which at its core it's about recognising that people work and think very differently, and that all of that is hugely valuable, but it can be quite easy to overlook or not understand people's reactions or ways of doing things and assume things about them or their work as a result of that. So, as good leaders and as good teammates, it's really important to be able to just embrace difference in all of its forms. So we've really tried to work hard to get that at Forster as well and encourage people to work in different ways than to understand, for example, in a brainstorm, which is something that we would do a lot of as a creative agency, that many people don't thrive under here's your five seconds to be creative, go, go, go. And actually they need more time to think about ideas and cultivate them and come to you in a different way. So we try to allow that as well.

Karen 30:50

Yeah. And I guess as we come towards the end of our discussion, what's coming up for me is that there is this sort of dynamic tension. Obviously, B corps, the B stands for benefit, and we're looking at our performance in a variety of ways. So people is just one of the strands, but there's also planet and prosperity, and sometimes that is a dynamic tension. And I'm just interested in your thoughts around when that comes into play and how the people element of it, whether there's sort of tensions that arise between perhaps needing to be more profitable or to reduce your move towards net zero or improve your sustainability credentials. What is the process for how you manage that dynamic tension?

Beth 31:50

Forster is a very purpose-driven organisation and we work on the front lines of climate change issues a lot. So I think we've got a team that is wildly behind pretty much anything that we would do in the name of making sure that we're reducing our emissions. Our team is already behind that. Having said that, the biggest controversy I think I've ever seen in any office is when we decided to go vegan.

Speaker 1 32:17

There was no more local out in the office.

Beth 32:21

Um wildly unpopular for us.

unknown 32:25

I know.

Beth 32:28

Because it also meant that actually when we go out and you know do celebrations and stuff, that also has to be vegan. So I think on a sort of macro level, often people understand things like that and that it can be quite easy to change. But when it comes down to almost the smaller day-to-day things, that can actually also more cause the frictions in a way that you're not necessarily expecting, which loops lovely way back into what we started this whole conversation with saying, which is why it's so important to continue to have those conversations with people and just understand what's causing the stresses. And often it's the things that you think, as a senior leadership team, gosh, that's so small. I would have thought it would be, these big issues that we've got, and actually no it's the hot desking policy, those sorts of things are actually tend to be what we've found that the bigger the bigger problems are.

Victoria 33:22

Running out of cutlery at lunchtime.

Beth 33:24

Exactly.

Karen 33:25

What would you like to add to that, Victoria? What happens at Socius?

Victoria 33:34

Well, I mean, a property developer, we found the environment section quite difficult to to complete, to be honest.

Karen 33:41

Yes, I can imagine.

Victoria 33:43

Yeah, I mean, also because we have our corporate hat on, but then we also have our projects. And we found it quite hard to translate the questions. And we were thinking, do we talk about our projects? Do we talk about us just as Socius and our um activities that we do to offset and be as green as possible? We're members of various accreditations, and you're always trying to strike that balance between purpose and profit because we are for profit, we're not a charity, and you're trying to do good things, but you also have a business to run. And when you invest in people, that's actually not that cheap. Small things make a happy team, as we've discussed, but it's not for free for the business, and it's a constant balancing act, like I've said before. So we definitely I think the next time we come around to our B Corp reaccreditation, which will be in 2026, we'll find it much easier. And the new standards will be out by then, actually. So I haven't really got my head around what that requires, but I know it's going to be broken down a bit further. And you can't really do really well in one area and not so well in another. You need to be across the board good at everything. So that's sort of in the background of my mind with everything that we're doing that we need to we need to always improve. And especially I think the environment category, the climate change is a big focus for 2025 for us. And how we can also make it tangible, relatable, change the language a little bit, make it a bit more friendly. There's a lot of stuff that people don't understand, a lot of science behind it, and we try and use PR actually to make it just into good stories. That's what people want to hear about.

Karen 35:48

Well, perhaps this is a good connection that we've um introduced. With that in mind, looking at your impact report, what stood out to me was your planet mark accreditation. All the things like bricks salvaged and fallen and felled trees. It's inspiring. And at the end of the day, we're also communities. But what stood out from both of you, as well as your workers, is your commitment to communities. So London does need a cancer hub. So what you've been doing there is fantastic. But listening to people, as you have Beth with the Grenfell testimony, the biggest thing that you can do for traumatised people is to listen to them. And so I think that you know you will be attracting people who care and for whom this isn't just a sort of tick-box thing that it is actually meaningful, and that makes it easier for people to see directly the link between their purpose, the organisational purpose, the planet, and the wider community. I think that's inspiring.

Beth 37:10

Yeah, I think you're right. And I think that the great thing about B Corp is, as Victoria said, really, is that it makes you think about the things that you do in a slightly different way. And it does allow you to surface some of stories. Although it can be very technical and it's a lot of work to get the evidence together, it does make you think about the way that you're running things slightly differently and ways that you can be improving constantly, which is really nice. And one of the nice things about the accreditation is that it does evolve, and it's not that you've passed it once and therefore you never need to worry about it again. That's something that is really helpful for that and fits with the sort of restlessness that comes with being, , purpose-driven and and wanting to to be the best example of that sort of business.

Victoria 37:55

Yeah, it is a constant measure and just holding a mirror up, really, and just continually engaging with your team and making sure, and whether it's just an informal catch-up or an official HR catch-up, even, or 360 reviews or happiness surveys, there's so many different ways to gather feedback from the team and just to gauge where people are at. And sometimes my boss will say to me, What do you think the level of happiness is at the moment on a scale of one to ten? And I go, ooh. And I just sort of have to be prepared for that question at any point. So I'm always measuring it in my head. Like, yeah, today's been a good day . I'd say nine, nine out of ten.

Karen 38:44

Well, it's certainly been more than a nine out of ten conversation. I really want to thank both of you for being so willing to share your expertise, to share your lived out values and experience of supporting B Corp organisations. It comes across really at the cellular level. It's part of our DNA actually, to have that striving for better and to be doing it demonstrably because we could all be values-driven companies, but there's something about actually taking that measurement and sharing it publicly that kind of creates that forwards and onwards drive. It's been really wonderful to hear about your stories. Thank you so much.