Episode 18 - Leading with Purpose in a Climate Changed World

As climate pressures intensify, leaders across every sector are being asked deeper, more urgent questions about the role of their organisations and the values guiding their decisions. In this special Climate Coaching Action Day episode, Professor Katie Bailey and Dr Katie Manning - co‑editors of The Purpose‑Driven Organisation in Times of Climate Crisis - join host George Warren to explore what it truly means to lead with purpose in a climate‑changed world.

This episode offers an honest, human‑centred conversation about organisations and leadership in the climate era - balancing practical organisational insight with the inner work leaders must undertake to show up with clarity, compassion, and conviction.

For coaches and leaders alike, this is an essential exploration of how purpose can help reshape business for a regenerative, responsible future.

You can link with the speakers here:

• George Warren, Associate Faculty, the AoEC and executive coach, the Edge of Coaching – host
• Professor Katie Bailey, Emerita Professor of Work and Employment, Kings College London - guest panellist 
• Dr Katie Manning, Lecturer in Climate Change, Business, and Society, Kings College London - guest panellist 

Transcript

George 0:06

Hello and welcome to this special Climate Coaching Action Day episode of Coaching Conversations with the AoEC podcast. I'm George Warren, executive coach and member of the AoEC faculty, and today we're diving into one of the most important questions facing leaders and organisations in our times. What does it really mean to lead with purpose in a climate-changed world? I'm absolutely delighted to be joined by two exceptional guests, Professor Katie Bailey and Dr. Kate Manning, co-editors of the powerful new book, The Purpose-Driven Organisation in Times of Climate Crisis. Their work brings together climate scientists, leadership scholars, policy thinkers, and organisational experts to explore how leaders can move beyond business as usual and embed purpose at the heart of their decision-making in the face of the climate emergency. Together we'll be talking about climate-aligned leadership and how purpose can guide leaders through uncertainty, complexity, and change. Katie and Kate, welcome. It's fantastic to have you with us today.

Katie Manning 1:14

Thank you for having us, George.

George 1:16

Perhaps we can hear from you in your own words. Kate, let's start with you. Tell us about what keeps you busy, the work you're doing.

Katie Manning 1:22

Great, thanks, George. So I work very much at the interface of climate science and particularly food resilience. So a lot of my work is with farmers across the UK, particularly, and thinking about what are the sort of changes we need to make, both in our dietary choices, but also in our land use practices, in terms of building a more resilient food system, both in the UK and globally, and ensuring that we're doing so in an equitable way, particularly when we think about the kind of challenges that many food producers across the world are are facing under climate change. We're really starting to see in enormous amounts of stress. And how do we ensure that governments and and private the private sector can really support people in in making the kind of changes that are needed in our land practices to ensure food security going forward.

George 2:18

Thank you. And Katie.

Katie Bailey 2:21

Oh, hello George. Lovely to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation. I'm an emeritus professor of work and employment at King's College London, and also a professor of leadership and human resource management at Northumbria University. And I've come at this whole question from a very different angle from Katie M. We called each other Katie M and Katie B to distinguish from one another. But yes, my background is very much in human resource management. And lately my research has been very much around meaningful work. So, where do people find meaning and purpose in the work that they do? And I've run a number of large research projects looking at this, and it was really through my interest in meaningful work that purpose emerged for me as being absolutely fundamental. How do we find meaning in the work that we do if we work for an organisation that doesn't have a clear sense of purpose? And how does our own sense of purpose fit in with where the organisation's purpose is? So it was these kinds of questions that really got me interested in the whole question of purpose-driven organisations and how we can go about transforming the organisations that we have into organisations that are going to enable us to address the complex challenges that we're all facing today.

George 3:35

Thank you. And you know, hearing the importance of that word purpose, it's in the title of your co-edited work. When you think about the climate crisis today as it's unfolding, why is it that purpose becomes such a critical anchor for leaders and organisations?

Katie Bailey 3:53

Let me say a few words perhaps about what inspired us to write the book, because I think that that's that that's very much at the heart of where we're going and why we think that purpose is so important. I was lucky enough to run a network called the Meaning and Purpose Network at King's College, and our purpose was to create more ethical, sustainable, and inclusive futures for organisations through partnership and knowledge sharing. And this was very much about bringing together a group of academics leading experts in their field with organisations trying to become more purpose-driven and looking for ways of making work more meaningful for their employees as well. And we had about 30 members of the network varying different sizes. We had big multinational organisations, we had small organisations, not for profit. And through the conversations that we had within the network, it became very clear to me that there was a real appetite for understanding more about what the research shows about purpose, and also an appetite really for sharing among peers knowledge and information about this area. It is still quite a new topic within the management field. So many people haven't really been on any courses or had any formal knowledge about purpose, yet often found themselves recruited by an organisation and told, right, we want to become purpose-driven. It's your job to come up with a purpose and tell us what we should all be doing, and then we'll do that, and then we'll become purpose-driven. And of course, people were running into so many difficulties and problems and feeling very stressed and burnt out in many cases. And through these conversations in the network and other networks that I was a member of, I could see that there would be a real useful purpose, as it were, for a book on organisational purpose, linking very much back into the climate crisis as well. And purpose can be about more than addressing the climate crisis, but the climate crisis does seem to be a kind of a foundational issue that all organisations should really be addressing today. And so the vision very much for the book was to build a team of academics, experts in different fields relevant to purpose and bring them together and produce a book that was going to be useful to people who weren't necessarily scientists, but that would give them the information they needed to be able to go out and explain to the skeptics in their organisation this is what climate change is, this is how it works, this is how it's going to affect our organisation, and this is why we need to transform. Oh, and by the way, these are the things we need to do in order to achieve that transformation. But it very much we wanted this book to be written by experts. And for me, not being a scientist, I really wanted to partner with someone who was a real expert in climate science, and that's where I built the partnership with Katie, and we were able to work together. But Katie was very much able to oversee the the sections on climate change. And I don't know, Katie, maybe you want to say something about that aspect of the work.

Katie Manning 6:56

I think because I think for me, you know, it was really it was very interesting, I think, being approached by Katie for for this project, and that's largely because really what we in the book, particularly from the climate science perspective, is that climate change isn't really about just an environmental or a technical challenge. But what it does is it exposes sort of fundamental flaws in the kind of organisational logic that that we've that we see today. So very much at the heart of the climate crisis is the economic system that we that we live in and the traditional type of shareholder capitalism that we see today very much prioritises short-term profits over longer-term sort of ecological or social wellbeing, despite the fact actually that that most corporations today, in principle, really began as an instrument for public purpose. And I think what climate change today is showing us is that this model that we have of current shareholder capitalism really undermines the very conditions that organisations actually depend on. And we're seeing that very much in our studies of climate impacts, in terms of resilient supply chains or that sort of stable ecosystems that give us the the resource dependency upon which so many organisations depend. And then purpose becomes the anchor really that centres organisations about around their duty that they have to both people and planet. And this is where you know what we see in the climate science field that without organisations recognising that need, we really aren't going to be moving towards the type of targets that we are trying to achieve. So that combination of organisations working with scientists really becomes key to thinking about how we get to a more sort of sustainable future.

Katie Bailey 8:53

I'm kind of conscious that we didn't really answer your question, George, as well, which I think was actually about, you know, why is purpose such a critical anchor for leaders and organisations? And I suppose having thought a little bit about the book and what we were we were trying to do, I mean it's maybe worth stepping back as well and thinking a little bit about well, what exactly is organisational purpose? And maybe this is something, George, that you you addressed through your coaching as well, because I know purpose is very much your an area of your expertise as well. So in the book, we differentiate very broadly between two types of purpose, goal-based purpose, which is about the overall aim of the organisation, which may or may not actually be anything to do with addressing wellbeing. But then there's the duty-based purpose, which is about the organisation's moral obligation to contribute to the long-term wellbeing of people and the planet. And this is very much what we're referring to when we talk about purpose. So we're not just talking about a general aim of the organisation, it's a very specific notion. And this is reflected in the British Standards Institute definition of purpose as well, which adds that at a minimum, organisations should make a fair contribution to ensure that the systems and stakeholders that they rely on are healthy and that they're not causing active harm to people or the planet. So purpose really is very much going beyond sustainability, as Katie has has already said, to sort of it's not an add-on to business as usual approaches. It's not, well, we do what we normally do and we think a bit about the planet. It's about actually how do we completely reconceptualise and rethink what the organisation is all about to make sure that we are not causing harm, that we are improving the conditions of the planet. And one of the contributors to the book, Victoria Hearst, has worked a lot in this area. She's one of the top experts. And she always says, well, organisations exist with the permission of society and in service to society rather than it being the other way around. So purpose in this context very much becomes critical, as you say, for leaders and organisations to think about when it comes to how do we address the critical problems that the planet is facing today.

George 11:09

Thank you both. There's so much richness and wisdom in your words there. Looking again at the book, it highlights the need for organisations to step away from business as usual models, which you've mentioned. And from my own experience and research, that can be very difficult enacting this kind of change. And you know, Kate, you mentioned the very sort of financial models on which our societies have have been long established. This is this is hard work with lots of resistance. So what does that actually look like in practice in in particular organisations or industries? And and are there any sort of success stories or patterns that that stand out? Kate, perhaps you want to um answer that first.

Katie Manning 11:58

Sure. I mean I think I can talk a little bit more to the kind of barriers that we have seen particularly over the last 20, 30 years, that have really kind of created such an uphill battle in organisations responding to the climate challenge. And I think it becomes a really interesting question there in regards to the way in which those types of barriers how they intersect with what the real risks are if organisations do not respond to this challenge. I would argue probably that one of the most significant obstacles that we've really seen in preventing organisations from aligning their work with purpose and with building a more resilient business model is an absence of long-term policy signals, so policy certainty, combined of course, I think, with internal governance systems, which you know often have prioritised short-term performance, but that broader policy landscape that has really stumbled in its ability to to meet those kind of long-term goals. And these are around things that we think about it like carbon pricing, regulation standards, transition pathways, you know, from the global kind of our governance structures that have been in place have very much short priced these. They haven't really developed the type of long-term policy pathways that are needed to address these issues. And this of course creates hesitation. And then you know what we see is leaders are delaying an investment, they're fearing that acting too early or too decisively is essentially going to be a disadvantage to them, to their relative competitors. And this uncertainty reinforces the type of wait and see mindset that we've seen, even as the direction of travel is broadly understood. We we know that climate is changing, we know that climate impacts are becoming more severe, are becoming more extreme and becoming more And yet organisational decision-making remains to be dominated by short-term horizons. So when we think of capital allocation is driven by near-term returns, when we think of, for example, benefits that members of organisations are being given, so executive incentives, for example, are still rewarded on quarterly performances. And together these dynamics essentially mean that our purpose is being acknowledged rhetorically, but it's not really been embedded as that type of guiding principle for decision- making. And because of that, the type of climate risks that are considered, I think, in the organisational setting are still seen as long-term risks. They're still seen as future issues, which really constrict, I think, organisations' ability to devise near-term strategies, if that makes sense. And I think it's because of that institutional paralysis, what we've actually seen is an increase in the kind of risks that organisations are facing. So stranded assets, infrastructural exposure, these are the types of things that we're seeing more and more because of that inability to move beyond that wait and see mindset. So I really see that sort of lack of policy certainty being the major obstacle to most organisations today dealing with these problems. I think Katie's probably in a better position to respond to some of the more specific examples, and particularly the the case studies of where we have seen effective development in policy in purpose.

Katie Bailey 15:43

I think that the point you've made, George, is a very important one, which is that there are enormous barriers for organisations, as Katie has highlighted in moving away from this business as usual. And, you know, when we say business as usual, what we're talking about is actually a fairly recent phenomenon in terms of how we conceptualise the role of organisations and businesses in society, really associated with the neoliberal agenda pursued by Margaret Thatcher in the UK, Ronald Reagan in the States, with an emphasis on marketisation, reduced government interference, individualism, and this notion of trickle-down economics. I'm not an economist, but you know, this idea of trickle-down economics where if we let the market have free reign, the market will decide who's going to succeed. And the ones that succeed are going to accrue resources and wealth, and then that will then trickle down to the rest of us. And of course, we've seen in recent years that actually that mechanism does not work. We've seen wealth and resources and power accruing to fewer and fewer people, leading to extreme forms of inequality. So, just for example, in 1965, chief executives were paid around 21 times as much as their average worker, but by 2023 that had risen to around 290 times as much. So we're seeing rising levels of inequality, and with that, rising amount of disparity between the amount of harm that's caused. So, for example, the richest 1% of people are responsible for around 16% of total emissions. And you only have to look at the UK water industry to see where this can can go. And again, with fossil fuels, I think there's there's been a clear set consensus, which Katie knows far, far better than me, that fossil fuels drive climate change for many decades now. But the sector is very powerful, it's very wealthy, they've been able to invest in extensive lobbying, and so they've been able to draw attention away from the harms that are being caused by fossil fuels and continue to force governments to really think that actually that their fossil fuels are not doing any harm. So we've had Donald Trump in America going drill, baby, drill, and we've had the COP summits attended by vast numbers of lobbyists who again have been able to keep the momentum going and emphasise the importance of fossil fuels. So when we say business as usual, we mean things like the continued power of the fossil fuel lobby, the continued emphasis on short-term profits at the expense of long-term wellbeing. And as Katie's said, we're seeing organisations that have a propensity really to think, you know, how can we create shareholder value? How do we generate profits and have that as their main success criterion, rather than having that as a secondary factor and saying, well, how do we contribute positively to the planet that we're on? And how do we do that profitably? But first and foremost, how do we make sure that we're we're not causing any harm?

George 18:58

Thank you. And moving to the idea within a company of human resource management and the sense of alignment of people to management processes? In your experience, Katie, how can leaders facilitate that coming together for a more future-focused, sort of long-term outlook at that cost of short-termism, of quarter to quarter? How does it impact culture engagements and what should organisations and leaders do if they are faced with that resistance to change?

Katie Bailey 19:36

So just taking the human resource management one, first of all. I think for purpose to become successfully embedded in the organisation, you have to take your people with you. And it has implications for the whole of the cycle from recruitment, selection, training, development, coaching, performance management rewards, the full employees' life cycle. So it's thinking about recruiting people who have have a shared understanding of what the purpose is and making sure that you talk about that during selection interviews. It's about training and development around the purpose, cultivating employees' ability to make ethical decisions and support the long-term purpose of the organisation. What is it that you're measuring? Are you measuring people's ability to contribute to the purpose and are you rewarding them for doing so? Our contributor, Narfu, writes about this very extensively in the book as well, and talks about the fact that you have to think about this in a systemic way. It's about linking your whole HR and people strategy through to the behaviours that you want to see at the end. And resistance, of course, is a very interesting area. And I think with it, it's if you look on becoming purpose-driven as almost as a change programme, that there's always going to be resistance to change, as we all know. But there are many different types of resistance, and I think it's important to think about what is this resistance? Is it active resistance? Is it passive? Is it just this tendency back to business as usual that we were we were talking about earlier? Or is it a sense that actually maybe the purpose isn't properly framed, that it's feels inauthentic to people? Or is there a misalignment in the system somewhere? So you're telling people, well, this is our purpose, but actually you're rewarding people for behaviours that undermine the purpose. So resistance can take many forms and have have many causes, but within that, engagement, empowerment, involvement, these are all very important things.

George 21:42

Thank you. Kate, anything to add?

Katie Manning 21:45

I think we can think a little bit more about what it is that both leaders and individuals within organisations need in order to address a purpose in the context of of climate change. And I think that one of the main things for that is really thinking about their ethical capabilities. So climate leadership is fundamentally a moral issue. And that's really because climate change is inherently unjust. So we know that the poorest and the most vulnerable people in our society have and will continue to bear the brunt of climate impacts. Katie's already mentioned the report that came out in 2023 by Oxfam where it was identified that 1% of the world's population were contributing 16% of all emissions. And that becomes even worse when we broaden that out a little bit and look at the fact that the richest 10% of the world's population actually account for over half of all emissions. And if we look at that historically, of course, the global north have been responsible for the vast majority of excess carbon emissions that have contributed to the type of climate impacts that we see today. And so I think that leaders they really need to develop a type of responsibility that goes beyond just about compliance. So really moving from what has been, I think, the dominant narrative recently, which is what is allowed and what do I have to do, to what is right and what should I do. And developing this type of, I suppose, stewardship mindset. So seeing leadership as a duty to protect the shared resources that both our current generation and future generations are so reliant upon, and really sort of shifting that that mindset in terms of their ethical responsibility. I think that another thing really that is is quite important when we think about what individuals can do in their development of purpose is really to take a look at their emotional component of their work. So I often when I when I'm talking to students, I often talk about this notion of bleak optimism in the face of climate action, which is that everything is going to change. And I think that there hasn't really been enough recognition of that, that we are not going to be living under the same sort of system of plenty that we have been over the last 50 years or so. That things are going to change and things are going to get harder. We're seeing crops fail. We're seeing supply chains disrupted. And so realising that because of that inevitable change, there is a need to shift our emotional state from one of security in the system that we currently live in to one of innovation and an opportunity for what that new system can become. So I think trying to sort of really get individuals within an organisation thinking about what their ethical and emotional capabilities are in the context of driving an organisation towards purpose in becoming more climate resilient is really kind of key to what needs to be done at the individual level.

Katie Bailey 25:08

I think it's interesting, Katie, what you're saying there about emotions. And I do think that's something that tends to get forgotten, and I think is really important is that transforming your organisation means transforming yourself, and that's always going to be an emotional journey for everybody. And I think helping people to manage the emotions attached with this transformation is very important. And I know we're going to be perhaps coming on in a minute to talk about coaching, George, but that might well be an area where coaching has a particular role to play in dealing with the emotional dimensions of the change and of the shift to purpose.

Katie Manning 25:46

Yeah, absolutely, Katie. Because I think also, you know, there's been some really interesting studies that have been done recently around particularly young people's sense of agency in regards to climate action. And there is really, you know, overwhelming feelings of anxiety and grief and conflict around what people feel they are they have the ability to actually do under the current climate challenge. So I think being able to develop emotional resilience, staying engaged with with the issues without being overwhelmed or becoming overly cynical, I think these are all really key parts of organisational structure, I suppose, that leaders are going to have to think about.

George 26:28

Thank you. And you've touched on it already, Katie, but some space for any other examples in the book and in the research that your instinct or your wisdom tells you coaching will be really valuable in leaders or leadership teams or anyone in an organisation navigate that climate complexity, that purpose-driven change, and some of that fear, that resistance, that wanting things to stay the same. How do you see coaching supporting that?

Katie Bailey 27:01

I think coaching has a very significant role to play at all levels in the organisation. And I think if you look perhaps at the senior leadership team on the C-suite, if there's an initial decision made, right, we're going to transform, we're going to become purpose-driven. The first you know, task will be to develop a purpose statement. And there was a piece of research by a colleague a few years ago which found that 93% of purpose statements lack any meaningful sense of purpose, which seems to me a serious omission. So, you know, just right from the very beginning there, having a coach working with the senior leadership team, helping them to work out what should the purpose be? What can the purpose be? And I saw this with one organisation that I worked with, they had a coach working with the senior leadership team, helping them to come to a shared understanding of what the purpose is, because individually each person in the senior leadership team might have a view on what the purpose should be, but now, how do you shape that into something that everyone can buy into? And the actual wording of the statement. So you would then end up with a kind of a strapline. So PWC's purpose, for example, is build trust in society and and solve important problems. So you have a kind of a strapline, and then as Victoria Hurth and Charles Ebert describe in their chapter, you've then got a whole document behind that which articulates clearly what the purpose is. And you've got to go then from having a statement and an intent into actually putting that into practice. And so working as a coach, I think would be very, very helpful for in senior leaders to help them think, well, what does this mean in my part of the business? What do I have to do differently? How do we make decisions in a different way, given that this is the purpose? And so coaching people to understand the purpose once it's been developed, to think through the emotional aspects, to think through, well, there are inevitably going to be people or departments that struggle more than others with the idea of the transformation or don't like the purpose statement. So, how do you help people to understand what it means translated into daily practice and to keep living with it? I think we talked earlier about this tendency to go back to business as usual. And I think in an organisation there's a very strong pullback. Organisations are still evaluated in terms of their success, in terms of profit metrics. And I think if you do a recent example of BP, which for many years, under the previous chief executive, had a very strong policy to move away from reliance on oil and gas and invest in renewables, saw a dip in their share price compared with their competitors who stuck with oil and gas, now under new leadership, very much have stepped aside from their commitment to renewables and their share price has gone up again. Factors like this are going to have a very strong pull in the organisation on what people see as being valued and as mattering and making a difference. So, coaching can play a very important role there. You know, what should the purpose be? What are the implications of choosing this purpose? How do we put this into practice? What does that mean for you? What do you need to do differently if this is the purpose? And how are you going to show up differently at work if this is now going to be a purpose-driven organisation?

George 30:31

Thank you. We're making our way towards the end of the conversation, but a chance to distill some advice and some wisdom from you both. So if you were to offer leaders, listeners, coaches one small practice or shift they can make immediately in order to lead with more purpose amid the climate crisis. What would it be? Kate, let's hear from you first.

Katie Manning 31:01

I think let's get to the heart of it, which is to step away from fossil fuels. Fossil fuel use, you know, primarily in in energy consumption, is the primary contributing factor to all global emissions. So if we just look at the UK, over a third of all emissions come from heating and energy use. Over 80% of that still comes from fossil fuels. And m numbers are much, much higher if we look at energy use on the global scale. So I think that really the first thing that all organisations need to do, irrespective of how small or how large they are, is to transition towards renewable energy sources. The reality is that we have the tools available to us now. We simply don't have the will to make that transition. And that's not hugely surprising. When we look at any transition in history, it is an uphill battle and the pace of change is slow as that transition goes through the the uphill section until it finally reaches a point where you have enough will, you have enough people doing it, and enough people transitioning away from something towards something new. And I think that to try and be optimistic, which can often be difficult as a climate is to recognise that we are approaching the the top of that hill. We are approaching the the shift in global mindsets towards moving towards a more resilient future. And the only way that we do that is to shift away from fossil fuels. So I think for an organisation to become purpose-led in the context of climate change, that has to be the biggest statement that I think an organisation can make in terms of of what they represent as a company.

George 33:05

Thank you. And Katie.

Katie Bailey 33:08

Well, it was very interesting listening to what Katie said there about the shift from fossil fuels. And I think if I was to pick one thing that maybe leaders could do, you know, alongside that, it would be to listen to their employees, to engage with their employees, because most people want organisations to become purpose-driven to address the climate crisis. I was very struck by a recent survey of 130,000 people across 125 countries, and they found that 89% wanted governments to do more to combat climate change. And these people obviously are working in organisations, want their organisations to do the same. I talked to senior leaders who say, well, we're struggling to recruit people because we're in the energy sector or we haven't got a clear purpose. Everybody wants to know what our purpose is now before they'll consider joining us. This is very much what people want now. People want to know that organisations are taking this seriously. And if you want to attract and retain the most talented employees who are going to be able to help you through these tumultuous years that are to come, then listen to your employees and really take on board that this is what people want. People really want organisations to take this very seriously.

George 34:29

Thank you. Thank you both. A lot of love and wisdom in both of those encouragements and offers and challenges. And in that spirit, the last question that I have for you both today is around you and what sustains you. So what is it that gives you hope right now? Kate.

Katie Manning 34:54

Well, sometimes not enough. Well this is a really interesting question that I get asked quite a lot by students. So I teach both business students and environmental geography students about climate change. And I always think I do so in a hopeful, optimistic way. And we get about halfway through and they go, well, where's the optimism? And I realise that well, if we look at the science and if we look at the evidence for impact, it is very difficult to bring that optimism and hope into it. But when we start to look at what can be done, then actually there is quite a lot of things happening that give me hope. So I think like I mentioned in the beginning, I work a lot in food production, so particularly with farmers who are very much on the front line of climate impacts. And I am inspired on a daily basis to see how much a lot of our farmers really are doing. So in in the UK context, there's a lot of grassroots organisations. There are farm clusters all over the UK where essentially farmers who are often marginal profit makers would get to the edge of their farm and realise a lot of what they were doing didn't work at the landscape level because once they got to the edge of their farm, if their neighbour wasn't doing, if their neighbour didn't continue their hedgerows to extend their biodiversity highways across the landscape, then there was no point. And so what they started to do was to work together and to work as collective units. And these have become incredibly successful. They've started bringing in private they've started disseminating knowledge across landscapes in a way that wasn't happening previously, and we're really starting to see a shift in the way that land managers see their role - both as producers but also as stewards of the land and we're really seeing you know great success in the uptake of, for example, nature-based solutions and more regenerative forms of agriculture, and a lot of that is through collective action. And we see that in other sectors. So there's an organisation called the Transition Network and the concept of transition towns where communities are working together from grassroots to build essentially climate-resilient towns. And those kind of things really give me hope that what we're starting to see is as people are experiencing climate impacts more and more, and we've seen that in the UK, we don't need to go to the Sahara Desert to see it. We've seen the droughts that took place last spring and then the floods that have really taken hold, particularly in the last few weeks here in the UK, where most farmers are feet underwater and worried about what's going to happen to their crop this year. We are starting to see people working together in really effective and efficient ways. And and I think that gives me hope for what can come in the future.

George 38:11

Thank you, Kate. Yes, I feel inspired from hearing you speak. And Katie.

Katie Bailey 38:17

Well, likewise I feel very inspired by hearing the stories, Katie, that you've told there. I suppose for me, I think I derive hope from the growing international awareness of the importance of purpose as a way of running organisations. So we've seen in the UK work spearheaded very much by Victoria Hurth as well on the British Standards Institute Standards for Purpose, which was I think the first national standard for purpose in the world drawn up in 2022, and the work that's being done at an international level by the ISO in developing standards for purpose as well, across its 172 national standards bodies. And I think the emergence of standards like these, it may seem a bit abstract, but actually will be incredibly helpful for organisations in providing some guidance and a sense of well, this is what we should be aiming for. These are the outcomes that we should be looking at, this is the way we should be governing our organisation if we are to be purpose-led. And the notion that there's an emerging international consensus on what a purpose-driven organisation looks like, I find that enormously hopeful as well. And I think will really help to pave the way for the future in terms of guiding people as to what they should be emphasising. And I suppose I draw inspiration from the people that I meet who are working in this area, who've got huge enthusiasm, great ideas, and real understanding of the climate change initiatives that they're trying to put in place in their organisations, and really want to address this and take it very seriously. And I get a huge amount of inspiration from talking to them and hope for the future as well. And I think, as Katie said, we have to be hopeful as you keep going forward and developing solutions.

George 40:13

And it's a profound and beautiful sentiment on which to conclude our conversation today, that that one of hope. So thank you, Katie Bailey, thank you, Kate Manning, for your time and care today, but more broadly for all the work you're doing and for putting this book and this wisdom out to the world.

Katie Bailey 40:31

Thank you. Thank you for inviting us. Thank you. Thanks so much.