Episode 1: International Stress Awareness Week 2020

Gina Lodge, CEO of the AoEC is joined by special guests Carole Spiers from the international Stress Management Association (ISMA) and creator of International Stress Awareness Week and Claire Farrow from makeadifference/MADWORLDSummit to explore working with stress including a look at covid-19, the evolving role of the manager and the future of work.

 Enjoy!

You can link with the host and guests here:

 Gina Lodge, CEO, AoEC: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gina-lodge-aoec/

Carole Spiers, Chair, ISMA international Stress Management Association: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolespiers-stresskeynotespeaker/ 

Claire Farrow, Partner & Global Head of Content, makeadifference.media / MADWORLDSummit: https://www.linkedin.com/in/claire-farrow-20896617/

You can find out more about International Stress Awareness Week which takes place 2 – 6 November 2020 and its first Online Global Stress and Wellbeing Summit at: https://isma.org.uk/isma-international-stress-awareness-week

Get all the latest news and insight with makeadifference.media and MADWORLDSummit at: https://makeadifference.media/ and https://www.madworldsummit.com/. 

Transcript

Gina 0:04

Welcome to this AoEC podcast during International Stress Awareness Week, where we're focusing our conversation on working with stress. My name is Gina Lodge, I'm CEO of the Academy of Executive Coaching. First of all, thank you to all those joining us today. I would like to start by introducing two wonderful people who are absolutely pivotal in raising awareness and encouraging action in an issue which needs to be addressed by all organisations across the world. Claire Farrow. Hi Claire.

Claire 0:37

Hi, there, Gina. Thanks very much for the invitation to join you today. Busy couple of weeks for us with Mad World and with Make a Difference the US last week. Hopefully, I'll have some insights to share with you.

Gina 0:49

Brilliant. Yes, so really lovely to have you with us. Thank you. And Carole Spiers. Welcome, Carole.

Carole 0:56

Thank you very much indeed, Gina. Really a great pleasure to be with you today and look forward to sharing insights and learning and thinking from about the summit. This is going out Stress Awareness Week, so that is going to be very, very exciting. As a founder of the Week, I'm extremely excited about doing this podcast. So look forward to having a chat and conversation with you, everybody.

Gina 1:14

Okay, well, I'm just going to give everybody a little bit more detail about both of you and about your background and why you're here today, really explains everything. So Claire Farrow is the Global Director of Content and Programming for the Mad World and Make a Difference Summits. She also drives the content for Make a Difference News. Claire is on a mission to help every employer, large, medium, and small, to get the insight, inspiration, and contacts they need to make a real impact on workplace culture, mental health, and wellbeing in their organisation. She has been freelanced for more than 15 years. During that time, she has had the honour of working with many leading publishers, including the New York Times. So very impressive start with Claire. And Carole. So Carole is an international motivational speaker and C-suite executive consultant. Her credibility is rooted in 25 years' success as CEO of Carole Spiers Group, a leading UK stress management consultancy, working with equal success both in the UK and the Gulf. Carole is also a BBC guest broadcaster and author of Show Stress, Who's Boss, who is regularly called upon by the media for comment. Carole is chair of the International Stress Management Association and founder of Stress Awareness Week, and also a fellow of the Professional Speaking Association. That's a wonderful intro for both of you, and I think really sets the scene for the conversation we're about to have. So just to really set the scene for why we're talking here today, as we're seeing now, there's never been a more important time for businesses to build back better when it comes to supporting our employees' mental wellbeing in the workplace. The figures speak for themselves, with almost one in five adults, 92.2%, likely to be experiencing some form of depression during the COVID-19 pandemic. That was taken in June 2020. This having almost doubled from around 1 in 10, 9.7% before the pandemic. And those figures were taken from July 2019 to March 2020. So quite sobering statistics there. I'll just kick off with a question and then we can see where it goes from there. So, Carole, let's start with you here. What's your current assessment of mental health wellbeing needs in the workplace?

Carole 3:38

Okay, I think as we're talking about COVID, which is exactly what we are doing, I think there is a huge need for employees and employers to reduce their stress and build resilience. And the statistics speak for themselves. Of course they do. And I think what is important to appreciate is that behind every statistic is that there is a person. It's very easy to look at statistics and think they're just stats, but there's a person behind them. So has the year given additional stress and pressure to individuals, both employers and employees, in 2020? Well, of course it has done since March of this year. Things have never been the same and they still continue to change. Even now we're looking at stress awareness week, things still continually change. And there's a great responsibility on employees and employers to manage their stress levels in the best way that they can. Because working from home now, there's greater pressure to do that. Few people are coming back into work. And this all this uncertainty, anxiety, coming to the end of furlough. It's a hugely difficult time, really, really difficult time for people. And we're seeing it right across the board with counseling cases who we're trying to help and support people. It could be relationships that are breaking down, it could be a work situation. So I have to say to you Gina it is a very, very difficult time. And now, more than ever before, is it absolutely imperative to provide the skills and the tools and the support that employees and employers alike need.

Gina 5:19

Yes, and I'm wondering, you know, is it the tip of the iceberg as well? Because, you know, you only hear the people that come forward and actually are happy to share how they're feeling. So there could be so many more people that would benefit from sharing anxiety and sharing their concerns about things.

Claire 5:38

Yeah, that was something that came out actually from from Mad World, from the future of work sessions that we ran at the event on 8th of October. Wolfgang Seidel from Mercer Marshall Benefits was saying that the peak is probably still to come. So, you know, really this is an opportunity for businesses to look at what they're doing and and not only to be reactive, but also to put measures in place, systemic measures in place that will be preventative. One thing that particularly resonates with me is how managers are so caught in the middle with this, particularly with COVID-19. You know, they're feeling pressures from above and pressures from below. So it's sort of how we equip our managers to look after their own wellbeing, but also to be aware of what they're they're dealing with and to help support other people's wellbeing, I think is is critical.

Gina 6:30

Yes, they're really sandwiched, aren't they? And you know, sort of where where do they go? So they need support as well.

Claire 6:37

Absolutely, but and there's much they can do as well to help other people.

Gina 6:40

Yes, yes, absolutely. So, both of you, what in your experience do employers need to be aware of when they're trying to respond to situations where stress can pose an immense challenge? And what are the costs to business of all of this?

Carole 6:56

Well, I think let's do the first one first, which is the cost of business is enormous in terms of reduced performance, reduced productivity, reduced profitability. So that's what the key issues you're looking at. And then you ask the question about managers. Well, the key skill set that managers need to do is to be able to listen to their employees. Now, we say listen, but here comes the next difficult part, which is you can no longer walk around the corridor and around the water cooler machine and check out how people are, even if you were to ask the question of how are you? The next point very simply there is is that you're now working from home. So, Gina, it's more difficult than ever, because those managers are trying to manage themselves. They're trying to manage what they are doing, they're trying to keep their head above water, they're trying to keep themselves away from burnout. And then, I'll be interested to hear what you think on this, Claire. And then you get to the point where you're now saying to them, well, you know, guys, you've now got a team of people to look after and manage. And they think, hello, I've got myself to manage and my wife and my kids, and the I could go on. What do you think, Claire?

Claire 8:06

Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. And you know, it's true that the figures are well documented. And actually, I think it it can be almost counterproductive to talk about the figures that are out there. I haven't got them to hand, but they kind of are meaningless, they're too big to mean anything. I think that we need to be starting to look at sort of more meaningful statistics when we're talking about impact on business, if that's what will turn people onto this subject. But maybe we won't need to anymore because maybe this is going to be so much at the forefront of people's minds that they don't won't need to have to make the business case in future. That's my hope anyway. In terms of managers, yeah, it's I think I'm actually really interested to hear what you think. You know, what do you do, how do you the active listening part is so important and that comes up in so many conversations that we have, you know, so much about wellbeing is about managers actually listening to the people that they work with and you know taking that on board. But it and you know, sometimes picking up on little signs that you might pick up on if you were working face to face with somebody is harder online. What are some of the things that you've been doing as a matter of interest? I'm quite curious. How can you pick up on people's different signs of how they're doing?

Gina 9:28

That's a really great question. AoEC have been a virtual company from the outset for 20 years. However, although we've been a virtual company for 20 years, we have delivered our training programmes around the world face to face. So we still had that transition to make, as most other companies did at the outset to move to virtual. And yes, what's been fascinating me really over this whole because there have been lots of different phases, and we're still in another phase, and we don't actually know what's coming yet. But the things that I've really noticed, and you're quite right, listening is the most important skill. We all tend to rush in to speak generally, and managers very often will assume that's that role to tell people, and very often it's so powerful just to listen, say less, and not interject too quickly, not jump in too quickly, just to slow the pace, listen, and the active part is really not just listen and be quiet, but really understand every word, nuances that people are saying. So, two things I've noticed: one is the fact, Carole, you just brought this up, it's not normally just working from home. You might have your pets in the background, you might have your children in the background, parents who are trying to homeschool, dealing with lockdown, dealing with not being able to go out, all sorts of things that are not just about virtual working, and we haven't experienced those, of course, as a virtual team before. So I think managers then have to stand back, compassion, understanding, not just pushing bottom line all the time, you know, really understand what's going on for your teams, working as a team together, supporting each other. They all sound very obvious things, but once we get our work hats on, the bottom line and what we've got to do and our task list, and I've got to finish this regardless by you know, whatever time in the evening. So all that pressure and understanding that you don't have to work 24 hours a day just because you're working at home. So it is quite a big shift, and that there's quite a lot of complexity.

Claire 11:48

I interviewed Jack Parsons, who's a great guy who runs an organisation called Youth Group, which is kind of a social business that introduces young people into work, and he's a great connector. And he was saying that it's been interesting during COVID. He didn't realise that when he wasn't feeling great, one of the things he did was stopped responding to WhatsApp messages. And it's that kind of little indicator, isn't it, that you know, WhatsApp has been going crazy through COVID. I don't know about you, I've got so many WhatsApp messages and you know, which is great. It's been a really great way of staying connected with colleagues, but also, you know, friends and family, just as Zoom has, and you know, all the video conferencing. And it's those little signs that you know just being aware of that sort of thing. Oh, so and so stopped responding to those messages. I wonder if they're OK, and then potentially reaching out. Interestingly, I also interviewed one of the co-founders of Movember recently, the men's health charity, and they're great supporters of of mental health actually, and they've kind of moved their remit on. And one of the things they were saying is that one of the ways, great ways to get men talking is to have shoulder-to-shoulder conversations. So I was talking to my husband about this, you know. I think I showed him the interview to have a reader written and see what he said. He said, Well, how does that work in the virtual world? You know, nobody's shoulder to shoulder virtually, we're always face to face, which I thought was actually a really valid point. I was desperate to find the answer to that. I'll have to talk to somebody who's an expert in talking to men about their wellbeing because you know they notoriously find it so difficult to open up. So I don't know what do you think about that? How can you have a shoulder-to-shoulder conversation with somebody?

Speaker 13:42

Well, I think that it's the shoulder to shoulder is important, the face-to-face is important, it's where we are today. We don't have it in the same way, so we have to adapt to the new way of working because I think the new way of working may be like this for quite a while, and in the future as well, you may even end up with hybrid situations where we're working from home and we're going into the office. So I think this is the new way of working. This isn't necessarily , you know, we're the uncertainty that we're living with, I think, is going to be there for a very long time. And I think the key to so much of what we're saying here is is the active listening, which is what we said before. And it is a skill set, it can be taught, it can be even when people are in the going through their own difficulties themselves, it is more difficult, and you're right, Claire. If you're actually actively looking out, you'll find that someone's dropped off a WhatsApp group or somebody's not called in for a catch-up and have a coffee kind of session. There are ways of going about it. There are the signs and symptoms, they're different to what we were used to. So the coffee machine chat and standing next to somebody and saying, How are you? Well, I have to say the how are you is only particularly relevant if you actually wait long enough for the answer. I'm afraid too many people don't. And I think that members of AoEC, I think the coaching part of that is so important because if we can take that coaching skill into where managers are, then that's going to help them enormously. And I know that this is a part of the remit of some management skill sets, but not all. So that listening part that comes from the coaching part and helping that person to come to their own conclusions and the solutions themselves, but enabling them, I think is so important. And I think this has to be the way forward with what we're going through.

Gina 15:35

That's something we've noticed because when they are running the training programmes virtually, one of the added benefits that we couldn't have seen at the time, of course, is that a lot of people coach global teams or global people, you know, one-to-one, and they do it using Zoom or the equivalent. So training to be a coach in a virtual environment is a really good thing because it's actually adding something you probably need in your skill set, and so many companies have global teams around the world. So it's quite common actually, even before the situation we find ourselves in.

Carole 16:11

But I think that we're losing some. This is where I'm saying this is a new way of working, where you know that the coaching role needs to be in there, needs to be included rather than done, you know, let's get on with the business. It needs to be in there in terms of that attentive listening and waiting long enough for the response and getting to know somebody. But you can work your way around it. Yes, of course, breakout rooms do help, but it's the effort that you put in with the technology that we have to make it as good as it gets for the time being. And I think it's going to be for quite a long time after.

Gina 16:45

Absolutely. So the issue of happiness at work going on to that, some people would say, Well, why is happiness at work so important? Why shouldn't it be? I suppose is the other question. And what can organisations do to help this, you know, happiness at work?

Claire 17:03

Good thing. Well, definitely. I mean, I was again listening to the presentation that Richard Caddis did with Peter Kelly, Richard Caddis from BT on the new ISO standard, which is due to come in actually mid-next year. I think it's going to be early next year, but it's moved to mid-next year. And he was saying that they've done some research at BT that shows the correlation between happiness and productivity. And you know, there is a clear correlation apparently. If people need some sort of business evidence that it is there, there's commercial evidence. But I think logic sells the sense says the same thing, doesn't it? If you're happy at work, you're more engaged, you're going to be looking looking forward to working with colleagues. The whole team will work better together and then ultimately more productive. Makes 100% sense. And I think purpose comes into that as well. Purpose and happiness have got to be, you know, closely linked. And that seems to be coming into more and more conversations these days.

Carole 18:02

I think happiness is is so important. It sounds a little trite to say, are you happy at work? Why do you not want to be happy at work? Because of course you want to be happy at work, but it goes beneath that. And you know, all the statistics, again, that back up this and the research that backs it up, it comes down to some very simple, simple get to the heart of it. People like to feel valued, people like to feel important, people like to feel recognised. If you get those three factors coming in, it's not dramatic. There's nothing I say that's particularly dramatic. And let's add in for good measure number four, which is people like to be thanked. Well, if you put those four into the mix, whatever research is going to come up to back it, and I've always back the research because I'm not a researcher, but I love to use the research. But cut it away and go back to the fact is that people need to feel that they are important to that organisation and not that they're a number. And interestingly enough, at that the stress and wellbeing summit in Stress Awareness Week, we've got Lord Mark Price talking about happiness at work. So he is, a former chairman of John Lewis and delighted. I mean, I spoke to him way before, in fact, COVID hit happened. I'm not quite sure whether it's hit or happened, anyway. Whatever, who knows? And I said to him, I said, Mark, would you talk at our conference? With the time it was going to be a single day's conference to round up stress awareness week in 2nd to the 6th of November. He said, Yes, of course. And then, of course, then COVID happened. And I said, Well, okay, we don't need that, but can we talk to you? And so, yes, he opens the summit talking about happiness at work. And if you listen to his research, which is absolutely invaluable and what he says, these are some of the key things, which as coaches, we all will know that. And because will you work harder if you feel important and valued and somebody's appreciated you? I mean, there are no big words in what I've said. Just make sure somebody feels valued and appreciated. It's a bit like, okay, yeah, thank you. Thank you goes a very long way. And here's the sad thing: I have to train managers sometimes on training courses as a part of their listening skills to say thank you. You think that's ridiculous, Carole? Surely not. And the answer is yes, you do. Because people will work harder, and particularly at the moment, particularly where we are in this kind of, you know, everybody's on remote, everybody's working from home. I think that's and you, you know, that is so important. And Claire picked up the word there of purpose. Yes, if you've got a strong sense of purpose, that is, I know Jeff MacDonald talks about having a strong sense of purpose. That's where you want to be. And you don't doesn't just happen. There are ingredients to that sense of purpose and it's not complicated.

Speaker 2 20:52

And we're not just thinking beings, we're feeling beings. So if somebody shows appreciation and you feel that, it's not cognitive, is it? It felt, a felt sense. So why? Because as you say, Carole, these are not really complex solutions that we're talking about here. We're all talking about fairly grounded basic things that would all probably nod our heads and go, of course, yes, of course I always say thank you. Of course I do this. So, Claire, why is it so difficult for organisations to get this right?

Claire 21:30

I think you know that the reality is that even though we've got the best intentions, it's work, it gets very, very busy. Organisations are sometimes not the healthiest places to be. You know, there can be politics going on, all sorts of pressures, they can sometimes be quite toxic workplaces or employers. And I think also it comes back to job design. You know, you can have all these conversations and thank people for their work and so forth, but if job design isn't right for the person that's employed in that role, or just you know, that job design needs to be reevaluated across the board, then it's still going to be hard for them. They're going to be under, you know, going to have a great sense of pressure. They're potentially going to have a more workload than they can cope with, or be consistently outside their comfort zone. I mean, I know that it's good for us all to feel stretched. You know, that's one of the things that makes us that contributes to happiness at work, you know, healthy stress, but being stretched be way beyond your comfort zone all the time isn't good for you. So I think that it is actually really straightforward. And that there are lots of reasons why employers aren't managing to do it systemically. Sometimes it's to do with senior management buy-in, but also it can be more around issues like I say, job design, which is something that both the ISO, the new ISO standard, and the BITC are addressing. And it's really good to see so many like these different organisations working in tandem and pushing forward the same messages that are going to make it a lot easier for organisations to embed mental health and wellbeing so that it you know becomes something that's truly sustainable.

Gina 23:20

I was going to ask you actually about the new ISO 45003 standards. These are just for our listeners, the ISO standards for psychological health and safety. So, what do coaches, managers, team leaders, what do they need to know about these, do you think?

Claire 23:39

Well, I think the point of the new standard is that it moves things on from the previous health and safety executive management standards and it and it gives regulations a certain amount more rigour. I mean there's it's still guidance, it's not compulsory, but what it does is it sets out a kind of a roadmap that employers can look at to make sure that they've actually got a strategy in place that brings together different elements of the organisation to be working towards a common objective of supporting mental health and wellbeing in a preventative way. So I would suggest that it's something that coaches should should really keep an eye on and download if they can. It's still evolving at the moment, but you can download it and then receive updates about it.

Gina 24:30

Great, thank you. I'm sure that would be really helpful for a lot of people listening as well. So I think one of the other things that I'm sure we're all conscious of as well is what about the future leaders? What about the young people and fresh thinking that they're bringing to the workplace? Well, do you think they'll bring a new perspective and a new approach? Will they be agents of change?

Carole 24:53

That's a big question. I think the youth of today, you know, are going to be our entrepreneurs of a tomorrow. So do they need to actually have to manage things differently how they are today to where they were a couple of years ago? Yes, in a way we have, because COVID is obviously a part of that. But it's not in its entirety. I think that there's people who are looking at how they're going to be managing and coping with the future. What are what the kind of leadership skills are they going to be different? And I put forward that coaching needs to be certainly in there first and foremost. So I think if you have that, that gives you that sort of that bedrock to what they need, it gives you the foundation stones for that new leader. So I think that the leader of tomorrow needs to be agile, needs to be quick thinking, needs to manage change. The things that we don't find that easy to do because we are steeped in, well, it didn't happen like this yesterday. And the leader of tomorrow will say, well, it doesn't matter because we learn from what happened yesterday and we move on. So therefore, I think we're coming into a very exciting new time for new leaders, a very exciting time because they need to manage the things that we're talking about, which being a good listener, being there for people, being there for their team, they have to manage that. They also have to manage change, they have to manage uncertainty. So those are the criteria that are going to be with us for a very, very long time, if not for always now. Who knows? Let's just take one step at a time. Because I think that leader needs to bring with them that the skill set of managing that uncertainty. Because if there's one thing we know, uncertainty is going to be continuous for probably a long, long time, if not for always. And I think it's for the older leader, when they are more entrenched with their skill set, they'll probably find it more difficult. And they're going to have to catch up. They're going to have to catch up because the youth of tomorrow are going to have to come with a different kind of skill set. And whether they value the listening skill set that we are all talking about, as to value, we think is really important. I actually don't know the answer to that because they're so caught up with technology and their phones and their iPad and their computer and texting. And it sometimes concerns me to think that are they going to be able to communicate in the way that we are all talking about today? And we're not the youth of tomorrow, we are not. So therefore, I'm not quite sure where that goes because people still need people, as we've rightly said.

Gina 27:26

Yes. So I suppose just before we go, there are a couple of things. One was just to ask each of you. So if you could pick just one thing that really has sort of given you sort of joy or nurtured you through this current pandemic, you know, made you feel sort of less stressed. What would you pick?

Carole 27:48

Okay, I've got one.

Gina 27:49

Very quick, Carole.

Speaker 27:50

The word as commitment, I'll tell you for why. When it came to March this year, 2020, and we knew we were going to be into a lockdown, except in fact, not the same as we thought we were going to be, but we knew it was going to be lockdown. And we were going to have our face-to-face conference, which I cancelled immediately, even though everybody said to me, Oh, leave it open, it might all change. And I thought, no, it's not going to change. I then decided to create that this one weeks-long summit, stress and wellbeing summit. I underestimated the amount of work. I have to say it totally clear. I can see almost certainly you'll be nodding for me on that one. I totally underestimated it. It has taken a hundred percent of commitment and dedication to get it off the ground. With over 50 speakers, I'm very proud of them. So whatever happens on the day to get it together, I'd say I'm very proud of that. And I just want it to be a success. Without that word of commitment, total commitment, which means live, eat and breathe it, apart from going for a walk every now and then, it wouldn't have happened. And so, therefore, that I regard is my legacy for COVID 2020. But the word you wanted to me was yes, commitment.

Speaker 2 29:00

Thank you. Brilliant. And Claire, what would you say?

Claire 29:04

So the one the word that popped into my mind when you asked the question is is actually gratitude. And I kind of hesitate a bit to say that because I do feel it sounds so trite when people say, Oh, you know, gratitude is so important, but actually I do find it really helpful. You know, there are lots of times when I feel stressed and under pressure, particularly, you know, running events is so frivolous, but it really is high pressure because you're managing so many different expectations, and nobody wants to disappoint anybody, you know. So I think when I feel like that, it has become a habit now. And it was starting before COVID, but it's probably kicked in even more since since COVID pandemics as it's been unfolding, is I sort of deliberately step back and just remember all the fantastic things that I have in my life, not comparing myself to anybody or any other or anything like that, just personally well feel that really, really helps. So that's my lesson for COVID is if you can, and I know it's really, really difficult for people who are facing job losses and terrible difficulties, of course, but try and step back and just make a note of a few things that you know you you still have within your life that you can be grateful for.

Gina 30:21

Thank you. That's that's wonderful. And I'll just add from a personal perspective as well. I know a lot of people have said this, and it's absolutely true for me, and it's a connection with nature. So for me, my daily commute before and after work is going for a walk, and it really honestly it's mood altering just to go and walk through a forest or wherever you can, you know, a park. It doesn't have to be far, it doesn't have to be anything particularly wonderful, but just being in nature, I think, is the one that's really you do that every day then? I do, I do all weathers and all year round, all weathers. I go, I subscribe to the you know, there's no such thing as bad weather, just inappropriate clothing. I do it religiously and have a small dog that accompanies that's another helpful reason that makes you get out even when it's raining.

Claire 31:11

Yes. I've actually got a black dog, which I always do, I feel kind of ironic because you know they talk about a depression being the black dog, don't they? Well, I've got my my own pet black dog. But she's great for lifting the spirits, you know, and it's a simple pleasure of taking a dog for a walk. Isn't it? Or throwing a ball for a dog, and then you know, the something that you get back from from pet, isn't there?

Gina 31:34

Absolutely. Brilliant. So thank you so much. There are clearly resources on isma.org as well, some lovely resources there for people. I don't know as the last, did you have any recommendation on for people listening on good places to go for resources?

Carole 31:54

Certainly the isma.org.uk site has a wealth of resources there for people to download. So there are fact sheets, there are how-tos, we've made it easy because when you're feeling stressed, you don't want anything particularly complicated and difficult. So, therefore, just you know, just download some of the resources, go on to the isma.org.uk site. You'll see the summits there, 2nd to the 6th of November, but download whatever resources. And also there are agencies there as well. So if you need somebody and you need a phone number, we've actually also got a dedicated list of agencies there as well.

Claire 32:28

And in terms of resources, I'd just say take a look at makeadifference.media, which is our media site, an information hub, and we have articles up there regularly uploaded, interviews, case studies, news, reports, anything really to help people keep up to date and learn from best practice. And also, if people want to access any of the sessions from last our events this year, we've got a channel called Mad Flix, which they can access through through makeadifference.media.

Gina, Claire and Carole 33:02

Brilliant. Well, I really can't thank you both enough for joining this podcast today. And you know, we'll be following what you're doing, and really thank you for making a difference to everybody. I'm sure that's hugely appreciated. And thank you for joining us today. And thank you to our audience, whoever you are, wherever you are, Carole and Claire really doing great work. Follow them, see what they're doing, join in this week, and best of luck going forward, ladies. Lovely to be talking to you today. Thank you. Thank you very much, Gina. Thank you. Bye.