Episode 2: Dual relationships – the Coach-Manager: Exploring the boundaries between being a manager and being a coach

Gina Lodge, CEO of the AoEC is joined by special guests David McLaughlin from the Chartered Management Institute (CMI) and Katherine Tulpa from the Association for Coaching (AC) to look at manager as coach. As one of the biggest areas of interest in people management and development, where do the boundaries lie between being a manager and being a coach?

We explore this important trend and consider some of the grey areas which are less reported. Just how ethical is managerial coaching and what best practices should line managers use to safeguard and nurture their coaching relationships with their direct reports?

Enjoy!

You can link with the host and guests here:

Gina Lodge, CEO, AoEC 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/gina-lodge-aoec/

David McLaughlin, ChMC Assessor, Chartered Management Institute (CMI) 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-mclaughlin-lcgi-dms-cmgr-fcmi-chmc-16011a87/  and 

https://www.managers.org.uk/ 

Katherine Tulpa, CEO, Association for Coaching 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/katherinetulpa/ and https://www.associationforcoaching.com/ 

If you would like to learn more about this topic, there is a wide variety of material available:

Managers and Their MoralDNA - CMI - https://bit.ly/2NCtO8M  

Managers and the Moral Maze - CMI - https://bit.ly/3srGIFn     

The Leader as Coach, Harvard Business Review - http://bit.ly/3pNaJ0E 

Values and Ethics in Coaching, Ioanna Iordanou, Rachel Hawley and Christiana Iordanou - https://amzn.to/37Lv1l2 

Developing Coaching Capabilities in Organisations, Ann Knights, 2008, CIPD - https://amzn.to/3uqYCdn

Transcript

Gina 0:04

A very warm welcome today to everybody joining us, where with our guests we will be looking at the dual relationships of the coach manager and exploring the boundaries between being a manager and being a coach. My name is Gina Lodge, CEO of the Academy of Executive Coaching, and I'm delighted to introduce today our two guests, David McLaughlin and Katherine Tulpa. Hello, Gina. Hello, everyone. So a little bit about the companies you work for and your yourselves, of course. So David, you're coming today from the Chartered Management Institute. The CMI have been around for over 70 years. It's a chartered body of management leadership, and it's worked with business and education to inspire people to become skilled, confident, and successful managers and leaders. So, David, about you yourself, you are Chartered Management Consultant Assessor. You're a professional experienced leadership management and personal development coach who loves to help individuals and teams develop and achieve their full potential. Now, so Katherine, CEO of the Association for Coaching AC. The Association for Coaching was established in 2002 and is a leading independent and not-for-profit professional body dedicated to promoting best practice and raising awareness and standards of coaching worldwide. And about yourself, Katherine, you are CEO and co-founder of the Association for Coaching. As an accredited global coach, you run a successful board-level coaching business, Wisdom 8, specialising in coaching CEOs, executives, and top teams. So we have two quite heavyweight people here on the podcast today. So big welcome to you and thank you for joining us today for this discussion. Well now we we've set the scene here. So this has made me really think there was some research by CMI, David, which I'm sure you've heard. But CMI found that 80% of workers do not think that their manager sets a good moral example.

David 2:18

Yes, and I this is quite shocking, isn't it? And I think it's part of our wider mission that encompasses the idea of getting better managers, actually. And I think what we see a lot are what we call accidental managers, and people that are technicians or just very good at their job , they're doing a super job somewhere in an organisation, and suddenly they find themselves promoted into a position of manager, and often without any training, without any development, just you know, you were doing a really good job, we'll give you more money. Here's it now you're managing this team. And I think that becomes really difficult for people without that development that they get lost in the weeds, if you like, and it's easy to blur the lines between now I'm a senior technician or a senior specialist to be now I'm the manager, and my job is no longer about the product or the thing, my job now is about managing people and facilitating their success and facilitating the work of the team to meet the objectives of the organisation. And I think people get lost in that in the kind of moral picture they provide of people. And I think when you add into that, I don't know what you'd say, Katherine, but when you add into that, the fact that people often struggle to make the differentiation between being a friend and a colleague appear and growing up in an organisation with someone to suddenly a position of having to manage that person's work, performance manage them, do the 360s, the annual reviews, everything else that has to be done. I think people can get lost, and I think that's why we see such high levels of not setting a good moral judgment because I think people are just lost, actually. And then again, you overlay that with the pressures of time, you overlay that with the pressures of production and meeting objectives and meeting achievements, and it just becomes far too easy for people to lose sight of what it is they should be doing, example they should be setting, and get tied up in all the other things that are part and parcel of that, of which they've had their development for. What do you say, Katherine?

Katherine 4:26

Yeah, I agree with really what you've said there, and there's an add to that. I think there's also something now in the times we're in, this is even pre-COVID COVID. I think we look over the last three, four, five years, internationally, even, I think there's much greater levels of awareness now in the workforce. If you look at, the maturity, more maturity now in a number of the talent programmes and the way they're bringing in more development than maybe, 20 years ago, 25 years ago. And that in a way, which is all a good thing, it's about this element of you taking responsibility for your career and you, making some choices that are more suitable for you and the organisation's responsibility to support that , it's it's both, isn't it? I think there's, I don't know if it's higher expectations. There's a sense, I mean it's a question mark, are there higher expectations than 20 years ago? But I think there's certainly more of an invitation now to people, in these surveys, in these poll studies, in the research, more than ever to really ask the questions what do you need from your manager? What do you want from your workforce? So I think there could be something there as well.

David 5:34

I would agree, and I think there's also something in there that talks to why people work. And I think you know, if I go back to when I first started work, it was you were after work because you needed the money, you needed a job, and and to a certain extent, you had those aspirations, you perhaps wanted to get married or engaged or buy a house or a car or whatever it might be. But I think there was also alongside that a sense of almost gratitude for the job. And I think because of that, we were willing to put up with with more that the nowadays generation and people rightly now shouldn't put up with, and we should never have put up with it. But I think the expectation always was, especially in lower qualified jobs, perhaps , if you don't do this, somebody else will. If you don't do as I say, then I bark at you, and if you don't respect my authority, then somebody else will, and you can go, and and , don't let the door hit you on the way out. And I think that has changed. And what I'm seeing in the workforce now, and especially with younger people coming through, is that you're lucky to have me. Yes, not I'm lucky to have this job, but in a sense, you're lucky to have me. I could go anywhere. I've got my degree, you know, I've got options. I'm not under pressure because I'm not leaving home at 18 to get married or whatever it might be. The expectations there that I will be in the family home longer and we'll have that support from the family are greater. So I think people have more choices, which gives them more of a sense of, well, I choose to be here, you need to make this as comfortable as possible for me. Because it's a joint relationship and we're both benefiting from this, not kind of it's less transactional, I think, that than it used to be. Yes.

Katherine 7:16

And it's going back to you again, it's not just a generational thing, but there's been, you know, a lot of the research has been around more of the generational studies with the millennials and such, you know, this whole need for greater meaning and purpose in the workplace . I think it happens at all levels, and I think especially now during the times we're in at the moment, at all levels, in all generations, but even before all this, they are now, as you said, they're looking and we want to ensure they're going to be working for the right organisation that's aligned to their values. So it's in that same bucket as the meaning and purpose side. I think also you were alluding to, weren't you?

David 7:52

Yeah, yeah.

Katherine 7:52

Yeah.

Gina 7:54

So in terms of ethics and being a manager, then, it is a dual relationship. So you're as a manager, you're trying to manage people. So you've got goals, haven't you? They're being set, and that you've got to meet targets and do all of the things that the manager's always traditionally been expected to do, as you say. But now we're we're expecting people to be a coach as well, or are we? So we're expecting them to have a coaching style, perhaps we should say. So, how ethical do we think is managerial coaching, the manager and coach relationship? How ethical is that?

David 8:33

I think for me, you hit the nail on the head when you said about coaching style, and I think there's a difference here between a more formalised contracted coaching relationship, which is very different from a managerial relationship with a coaching style. And I think for me personally, it's the the adoption of a coaching style that allows me to get the most out of people because I think it very much is that you're right when you say ethics, but I think it's very much about that relationship as well. It's for me, it's how can I help you to succeed? Because if you succeed, I succeed, so there's an ethical buy-off there, and it's a joint relationship, it's back to that old thing, isn't it? You know, nobody wins unless everybody wins, and and I really believe that that's true. It sounds a bit cheesy and a bit trite sometimes, but I really believe that that's true. Because, and I guess that comes back to what I was saying earlier about my job is no longer technical specialist, my my job is no longer I don't produce things, I'm not a teacher in the classroom, I'm not a technician, whatever it might be. My job now is to is to help my team succeed. So it is that, what do you need for me in order that you succeed? And if we do that and we have that relationship and we're open and we're transparent about it, there are certain expectations around that, as we would perhaps with a contracted coaching relationship. You know, we're going to work together in a certain way, we're going to challenge difficulties in a certain way, we're going to challenge each other in a certain way, and have that respectful pushback which you would get with a coaching relationship. But I think that just feels right, and it feels like the imperative really, because the days of of saying, I'm in charge, you don't do as I do, do as I say, are gone. You know, nobody's going to do that as we mentioned earlier. So I think it is how do you get the best out of people? And for me, that feels like a coaching approach is right, but there do have to be boundaries, and I think it's not that contractual relationship. There is an element of confidentiality, obviously, but there are things around disclosure, for example, that would be difficult to deal with. And I think it's important not to get too it sounds terrible, but not to get too chummy, not to get we can be respectfully friendly, respectfully professional, but I think there are boundaries that we have to be careful not to overstep when we do this because we can change those expectations of the relationship between us.

Gina 11:02

Yes, I think that's absolutely right, and that's one of the big dilemmas, isn't it? How can a manager and your direct report be friends? There is a change in behaviour, I think, that we've probably all witnessed when you move from not being a manager to a manager, and you suddenly realise that there is a different perception of someone that's a manager. And how do you behave? You know, friendly, yes, of course, but there are sort of some silent boundaries there, aren't there? I think it's something you learn as you go along. And I wonder if we were all starting out now in you know our first companies, I wonder, let's say that your first post as a manager, I wonder what support we would be looking for.

Katherine 11:50

Yeah, I'd build on that because you, Gina, you'd rightly said expected to be a coach. And with that in parallel, I would say it's many, talking about the emerging generation, they're demanding a coaching style. So you said expected, I'm using the word demanding. And we're well, there's been research around that. I'm actually thinking of a very large multi- generational study by MRG, MRG.com. They do psychometrics and such, and they had many large data points of norm data around the different generational needs in the workforce in terms of age, but also in terms of the way they like to be led, the styles, the way they communicate, and so forth. And what was very interesting, not surprising I meant to say, but what was very interesting because is that the the kind of the millennials especially were saying the leadership style they wanted most from their managers was a coaching style. So yes, and I think I like the word, you know, the style David you mentioned. So that's the wider aspect, yeah. So, and we can talk about that, but this isn't just about career conversations. That's part of it. You know, they wanted a coach, they wanted a manager that would be more of a coach in terms of really challenging them, stretching them, really developing them, about the developing the thinking and drawing out their thinking, so many of the aspects and qualities around coaching, in terms of some of those are in terms of the being a better listener, being a better listener as a manager. That's a coaching style. You could it's also a good leadership style. But what they also wanted is you know, part of coaching is also observational feedback. If you have permission, as you know, as well , is around with permission, you could give in a trusted, confidential way some observational feedback and ways that's working well and ways they can improve. So some of this feedback was coming was they wanted more ongoing dialogue around themselves, around their growth. And they wanted their managers to be great coaches to them. It's really interesting, David, you know, having the view about not getting too close. I guess I see that, and there's a side in me too, it does depend on who that individual is and also maybe what your style is as a coach, as a coach leader, as a coach manager. One of the things, Gina, is you're aware of that we are launching, the Association for Coaching, you're launching our leader coach accreditation scheme this year, 2021, which we're very excited about. We've been doing a pilot in AsiaPac and we've had a number of manager coach go through this accreditation process, and we've been getting really, really fantastic feedback. Now, this is a level beyond coaching style. Okay, we can come back to that. For those of interested of going down this path, this is for a manager coach. So taking a coaching style, then coaching their line and their people that report to them, but it also mean could be coaching sideways and upwards. So this is really a set of capabilities, there's codes of ethics and good practices, there's demonstrating that you have the skills of coaching. It's demonstrating that you are applying a coach approach in your role. Doesn't mean all the time. That's impossible, isn't it? As a manager, many of us have different roles. I mean, I can't always be 100% coach. I mean, Gina, you must feel the same, right, in your role.

Gina 15:44

Absolutely.

Katherine 15:45

And David as well.

David 15:47

Yeah, yeah.

Gina 15:48

I think that's one of the misnomers about this, that you are a coach all the time. Yeah. And I think David, as you quite rightly picked up on what I said about having a coaching skill skill set is very different from saying, I am a coach. I think that's not what we're saying. And that sometimes gets confused in organisations, doesn't it? And I think, Katherine, the leader coach accreditation scheme is much needed now. We're asking leaders and managers to wear the two hats. Those are skills that they need to learn, everybody needs to learn, and particularly the young people coming into organisations now. Interesting because the accreditation's a great step forward, and I think hopefully it will influence companies to make that change and to actually put some sort of commitment behind the training side, the equipping those new leaders, new managers, or even existing leaders and managers, because like anything else, you can't just expect people to display the skills when they've had no training, no advice, no mentoring. So, how do you see that developing?

Katherine 17:00

I'll start, and David, great to get your bounces from that. I think, as coaches, we know the importance around looking after ourselves. If you look at the code of ethics, any of the code of ethics with any of the bodies, and this is also in leader coach, if you want to go for a leader coach accreditation at the AC, is you know, you are fit for practice. I think the point being is, as we know, in any of the training, I mean, with the Academy of Executive Coaching, so much of being a good coach is you work on yourself. All the training I've done over the years in the different coaching, half of it is you're working on yourself. So I think there's an element here of a coaching mindset. What does that look like for a manager? Because there's the unwritten parts of coaching, which is you might not see it. A coaching mindset is, well, firstly, how am I showing up? And am I present? Because you need to be present with the person in front of you. Do I really believe that this person can grow? Now, this might not be said, but if they have someone who's working for them who doesn't believe that they can grow or they might can come up with their own solutions, you might need to facilitate and be their thinking partner at times, but you actually need to believe in your people. And just like a coach, even a professional coach, needs to believe in their coachee, the person they're working with. If you don't think you can support them or you have some noise, then you're not really being a coach to them. That's not a coaching mindset. Everyone will have, there's various schools of coaching, and this is what's exciting about as we grow. You don't just have to have one formula here. You can have whatever your coaching philosophy is, there are underlying, I think we'd all agree to as a coaching style. But I think that's what's exciting about this, Gina, going back to your question, this is an opportunity for people to, in the context of their roles, in the context of the people they're working with, have an opportunity to get trained up more and have that reflective practice. So again, I think what could this look like? I think more peer supervision groups, perhaps, buddies, buddy coaches who are have the serious intent of being a better leader coach or a style of coaching. So I think those are some of the things I wanted to throw into the mix.

Gina 19:25

Yeah, absolutely fantastic. And I think what you're saying is it, you know, coaching is a mindset, and definitely at the AoEC, I mean, our training is based on who am I? Because if you don't know who you are, how could you possibly support the growth of anybody else? And it sounds such a simple philosophy when you say it, but there's a lot of work that's involved in getting this. So, David, what do you think in terms of your experience?

David 19:54

I think I would agree with Kathy. I think there are some, I think for me there are some other issues in the workplace as well. And I think part of that coach manager training is about recognising that there's not one approach fits everybody. So you are sometimes a coach and sometimes a manager. And I guess I'm thinking here about both individuals in terms of people perhaps towards the end of their career in certain roles who are saying, you know, I don't, I'm not interested in growth, I'm not interested in developing. I've got 18 months to go. You get paid to be money, you need to tell me what to do, and I'll do it. I'll do it to the best of my ability, I'll do the best in the whole organisation. So that's all I want to do. I just want to count that down and slide out the door. And I think we have to recognise that as people, and I think there are people that it's about recognising when people aren't ready to be coached as well. Picking up on your point, Katherine, we need to turn up and be present, but our coachees need to turn up and be present as well and play a role in that. And I think that's important to recognise that not everybody is as yet in that space where they need to be in order to that we can get the best out of them. And I think alongside that, there's something about situational leadership as well, and knowing when to apply a coaching approach and when to apply, shall we say, a more dictatorial or hierarchical approach. I've worked with the police, for example, and sometimes it's just about you know, we can have a hug and a cup of tea, and we can all go back for medals later. Just now I need you to do this. I don't want to talk about it, I don't want to argue about it, I just need you to do this. Then there's a time after that for coaching and say, getting people to a point where they understand why they were resistant to that from my point of view, how we get them to a point where we can where they they are happy to do that without being challenged, perhaps. But I think it is about that situational element. I think if we're training coach managers, there needs to be that element in there as well. I think. I mean, what do you think of that, Katherine? Does that sort of reflect your experience?

Katherine 22:00

Obviously I have a huge bias towards coaching, so that's self-declared. I guess the question is it I agree with you, I agree with you, situational and contextual, right? Contextual is really important, appropriateness, timing, but also in terms of the conversations. What head are you playing, right? As that manager coach, what head are you playing? And sometimes there's a bit gray around that. I think there are elements around the ethics around that, in coaching terms as professionals, the contracting. So I think it's what would probably in layman's term, I think what we're saying here is having a conversation with the person, if you're a manager that you're coaching about what is inbounds, what is out of bounds, right? And it is a little bit some of those boundaries as much as possible. For instance, if it also depends on the context. I'll give you an example. So if it's a company that's fairly evolved on the talent side and they view it's important for a manager or an employee to always be thinking about their career and what is the best fit for their roles, what's actually best fit for them in terms of their values and where they're at at any point in their career. And a manager, as we know, is a pivotal part. I mean, that's who they see the most many times, to helping in that those discussions. And I think where I really admire companies, it says, listen, it's important for you for us to have these conversations of what it could look like for you in the future, here or elsewhere, and having a very open dialogue in a very open way. So the context, this the psychological safety in that organisation is allowing you to have those free conversations around what you want, what the employee wants, what around their development and in their roles. And I think when you have that kind of context, then a manager coach can can feel more free in that way, right? If it's something where it's maybe not that kind of environment, then it sounds like it needs to be more, maybe a little bit more safe, a little bit more boundaried about that, you know. But I think the point here, there's a lot written and mentioned about psychological safety. We do know, because it's a very trusted space, whatever those agreed terms are, in when you're in that kind of coaching discussion as opposed to the manager discussion, I think that needs to be what's inbounds, what's out of bounds. And it is really worth the dialogue. So I don't know what you you feel about that.

David 24:42

Yeah, no, I'd agree with that. I think that those inbounds and outbounds are really to establish early on. I think without those, it you become, it can become potentially difficult later on.

Gina 24:53

Yeah.

David 24:53

Unintentionally difficult. But I think very important to be aware of that.

Katherine 24:58

Yeah, and within the Academy Executive Coaching, do you have a view on that? Because I'm sure you do.

Gina 25:03

Yes, and I think this goes back to in the context that we're we're talking about now, it's a style of contracting. So we're talking about a style of coaching, we're not talking about the manager or leader as a coach. So I think, yes, absolutely, it's important to have a style of contracting in the way you've just described very eloquently. So if you're a manager or a leader and you have direct reports and you don't give the clarity about the relationship between the two of you, well, how can you expect somebody to understand what's expected of them? So if you don't have that conversation at the beginning, and I think in in my my opinion, it needs reinforcing. You don't do it once, you do check in, and how are things going, of course, and it progresses. But it's surprising how many times we hear that that doesn't happen. So I think it's really important to have a form of contracting to say there will be times when I have confidential information that I can't share with you. So I'm that's not because I don't trust you, it's because there's certain governance that prohibits me from doing that. That that's perfectly reasonable. It's not a barrier. But sometimes just saying these things out loud, it's a form of contracting, this is what we can do, this is how we can work together. And it's as you said earlier, David, it's about you know level playing field. It's about this is what I can do, and this is what I need of you, but what do you need of me and this is what I can commit to? So just having that, it's having that conversation with your direct reports is a coaching style to me, and it's essential.

Katherine 26:45

I'll give you a really practical example of again the contracting. I was with the manager coach who did have an agreement with his coachee who worked for him, and it was a career conversation. So the the coachee, who we worked for him, they're talking about how mobile this individual was. Would they travel, would they leave, in this case, the UK? So in the coaching conversation, because it was a very strong relationship, he said, at this point I'm not mobile. But what he did say is when it comes to discussing on the talent, succession planning, I don't want that known. So hold that, hold that space. And this person I know he has done that. So that's just an example of something very practical about what is out of bounds, what's in bounds.

Gina 27:35

It's really good to hear those examples again, and I think that's a huge strength when you're describing this relationship and having the examples that say, well, you've probably come across something like this, or this is an example of that. So I think that can be very helpful when you're sort of trying to clarify this relationship as well. We talked about briefly can managers and their direct reports be friends, there's sort of a coaching relationship or not. I don't know what you think about that.

David 28:03

No, I agree. I think being friends is challenging in a lot of ways, and I think you know, at the basist issue, you can be friends at work, but you may one day have to lay that person off, you may one day have to challenge them about their performance, you may one day have to deal with a lateness issue or somebody turning up hungover or whatever it might be, and as I say, this very basis, I'm talking about base issues here, but I think that there's a for me the challenge is how if you're a manager, and you see this in a lot of new managers and young managers, particularly team leaders, where they're out in the pub with the team and someone turns up drunk the next day, or somebody turns up late and hungover, how do you deal with that? How do you cross that boundary from being with them the night before drinking and having fun and maybe joking inappropriately and you know that horrible phrase banter? How do you then deal with that the next day in an appropriate way that maintains those work boundaries? And I think that's very different to having a professional. I'm going to say friendly whether friendly is not the right word, but a professional, respectful relationship where you have you respect each other, it is friendly, you're not argumentative all the time, but there are certain boundaries in place, whether they're spoken or unspoken. And I don't think that is a difference for me. There's no difference for that with a coach or with a non-coach manager. I think it's the same for you. I don't know what you think, Katherine.

Katherine 29:36

Yeah, I guess it goes back to how are you defining, I agree with your point about those boundaries and those work boundaries. And what's going through my mind is depending on how you're defining friendship, if you're talking about the qualities of friendship, which is compassion, care, support, maybe healthy challenge, right? Healthy challenge, a good friend you trust, who can really tell it like it is. Those qualities, I think, is what makes, you know, we do know over and over so many studies, and these coaching studies, that the power of the coaching, the outcome of a coaching is it really important to have those a good, strong, trusted, safe relationship with the person, right? So whether it's a manager coach, you do know, as a manager coach, you do need to have an interest in people but also care. And I am seeing care come in now in value statements in business, especially with this pandemic era we're in right now. I guess it's a long way of saying is I would hope, and and I would think to be a really good manager and a manager coach, what you want to be doing, if anything, you want to continue to develop your care and your compassion. It doesn't always have to mean soft. I mean it can be can be tough love in a supportive way, in a coaching way. In a challenge, you can ask a question that could be quite challenging, that puts responsibility on that individual. And if it makes, if it helps them, then that's going to help them grow and stretch. So I guess it all depends on what you know, what kind of everyone probably has different definitions of what they want in a friend as well. So I guess it's but I know we're trying to break it down, but I agree with you about the boundaries. But I guess there's something here coming in to me, round especially the emerging generations coming in. They're already in the workforce in leadership roles, there are less boundaries, as we know, between work life, and then now with the pandemic, everyone the work life is there, we're in it. So I guess the question is what's emerging for me? What is emerging? What does that mean?

David 31:43

I just want to pick up on that because I guess I agree with everything you're saying, and something that just occurs to me as you're saying it in terms of emerging and new ways of working. I mean, where do we stand on on social media, for example? You know, should we as managers and leaders be connecting with people on social media? And if we do, is one form of social media more appropriate than the other? I mean, we can take LinkedIn, for example, can't we? Which is probably, and I'm going to go out on a limb here, probably the least interesting form of social media that we have. Through do we share our family photos on Facebook and Instagram and are we on Twitter with our teams and with the people that work for us? Is that appropriate? You know, all these questions come up, I think, as we have emerging technologies as well as emerging management styles and different expectations from the people that we're managing and coaching.

Katherine 32:39

Yeah, really good point. And I'm sure people have different answers on that. And when you actually disclosed that, I had a quite instant one to say, I wouldn't be on Facebook with that. But I guess that's this without knowing the whole circumstances. But I think that goes back to me going back to John Whitmore's about this, it's an element here with coaching, is about choice. So I think that is an element here, there's the choice of that individual, and then in the dialogue. I mean, maybe that's an invitation, the dialogue, having the dialogue with them of what would make the relationship feel safe, what would make each other feel comfortable. And then you've got a lot of complexities like the organisational, layers on there in terms of their views on this. So that's you know, we're just looking and isolating for a more coaching style. But we keep alluding to, they have so many roles you play. A manager has so many roles they have to play in which they're measured on. So it does get, fairly complex.

Gina 33:37

So we're coming to the end of our conversation today. Just before we close, what are your last thoughts on what managers and coaches need in their dual roles?

Katherine 33:50

David, what's emerging for you now, right now? What do you think is an important thing for you to say or for us to say?

David 33:57

I think in terms of something that I think it is about, I think it's largely about training and supervision. I think part of that training is about, you know, we talk about safe space in which to coach.

Katherine 34:08

Yeah.

David 34:08

But I think it's about a safe space for coaches to be able to offload. I think there's something in the training as well for me about disclosure and handling disclosure. I think that's a big thing. If we've set up this safe space and that's exactly what we want, and then someone comes in and discloses something to us that we need to deal with that may be a legal issue, maybe potentially a criminal issue, maybe just an infringement of policies of work. How are we going to deal with that if we I guess if we haven't set that up clearly at the start, we haven't said to people, this is a safe space. However, if you disclose something to me that I need to deal with, I will deal with it. And that's easy to do, but it's also easy to forget, isn't it? So I think there's something in there about that. It's about training for managers. I don't think we should ever put people in a position of management. And I would say this, wouldn't I? I don't think we should ever put somebody in a position of management without giving them training and ongoing support and development. Yes, because it is a very different job. And for me, as a professional manager, I think it is a profession and we should treat it as such and not just drop people into it. You know, we wouldn't say to somebody, well, you're good at talking, we're going to drop you into a psychology role tomorrow. I mean, we wouldn't do it yet. We feel that we can do it with managers, and I think that that's not right. So I would say lots more training, supervising of managers, giving them a safe place to offload, to talk about what's happening for them as well, and have coaching running through the whole organisation so that there's an open, clear, honest, authentic dialogue running through an organisation. But that's an aspirational goal for the next decade. I don't think we're there across the piece. Yeah, I think we're there in certain places, and I think there's really good examples of that. But I've worked with organisations where still you know, in the last five or six years, coaching is seen as a last resort. We've performance managed, we've argued, we've had fights with you, we can't get rid of you until we've offered some support. So we'll get a coach in, we'll give you five days of coaching, you know, half a day over 10 days. And if that doesn't work, you're out.

Katherine 36:17

You're still seeing that?

David 36:18

Yeah, well, I was four or five years ago in a couple of places, and it was seen as we've tried everything with you now, so that's it, you're out. Nothing works. And I think the fear in that organisation then is oh, you've got a coach coming in. Well, I might as well start packing. Less and less we're seeing that, but I think in some industrial sectors, it's still seen in that one.

Katherine 36:42

Adding to that, I think there's something definitely about the training. I think there's something to be said about that. I mean, certainly what's offered there. And I'm putting it in the bucket of support, so that support with peers, support with professional bodies like ours. There's resources available, there's webinars. And I also think to bring in the organisational key ambassadors in coaching, we have corporate membership to the AC, and these are coaching ambassadors, who many of are internal coaches with the real mission to build more of a coaching environment, coaching culture, and they want as many, managers, leaders to adopt more of a coaching approach. So I think probably the point being there's a lot of support in a number of organisations already if they seek it.

Gina 37:29

That's a really important point that you know there are places to go, and all of the things that are on offer, there are a lot. It's guiding people to where they are. And David, your point, the remedial use of coaching, to put to try and fix something or to use it rather than how it's intended, it's very sad when we hear that that's still in the system. I think it's getting less and less as you say, Katherine, now, but you know, it's still there. So it's still something that needs to be clarified. So training is important, supervision are somewhere for the manager to go or the leader to go, because it's the old lonely at the top syndrome again. Really, there should be the same philosophy applied to a coaching organisation or to someone with a coaching style in the organisation. So really thank you both so much for this just really engaging conversation. I do feel as if we could go on for another hour. Thank you both for joining the debate today, and we hope that all the listeners will get a lot out of the conversation. And any questions, obviously, please let us know, and we'll try and address those separately. Thank you very much.

David 38:45

Brilliant. Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me. Been really enjoyable.

Katherine 38:49

Yes, thank you.