On this week’s episode of "Our Kids Play Hockey," Lee Elias, Mike Bonelli, and Christie Casciano Burns are joined by Professional Hockey Player Madison Packer. Madison's hockey journey is a testament to resilience, leadership, and passion. From her early days on the ice in Birmingham, Michigan, to becoming an NCAA champion with the University of Wisconsin, and now stepping into the professional arena with PWHL New York, Madison's story is not just about hockey, but about life, family, and breaking barriers.
What You Will Learn:
Key Moments:
Madison Packer's journey is a powerful reminder of the impact of determination, the importance of family support, and the evolving landscape of women's hockey. Her story is a beacon for young athletes, showing that with passion and perseverance, they can overcome challenges and make significant impacts both on and off the ice.
Remember to follow "Our Kids Play Hockey" on your preferred social media channels and share your thoughts on this episode. For more inspiring hockey stories and tips for young athletes and their families, subscribe to our podcast.
Have questions, comments, or episode ideas? Reach out to us at team@ourkidsplayhockey.com. We love hearing from our listeners and are dedicated to bringing you content that inspires, informs, and entertains.
Our Kids Play Hockey is powered by NHL Sense Arena!
NHL Sense Arena, is a virtual reality training game designed specifically to improve hockey sense and IQ for both players and goalies. Experience the next generation of off-ice training in VR with over 100+ drills and training plans curated from top coaches and players.
Use Code "HockeyNeverStops" at Hockey.SenseArena.com to score $50 off an annual plan!
On this week’s episode of "Our Kids Play Hockey," Lee Elias, Mike Bonelli, and Christie Casciano Burns are joined by Professional Hockey Player Madison Packer. Madison's hockey journey is a testament to resilience, leadership, and passion. From her early days on the ice in Birmingham, Michigan, to becoming an NCAA champion with the University of Wisconsin, and now stepping into the professional arena with PWHL New York, Madison's story is not just about hockey, but about life, family, and breaking barriers.
What You Will Learn:
Key Moments:
Madison Packer's journey is a powerful reminder of the impact of determination, the importance of family support, and the evolving landscape of women's hockey. Her story is a beacon for young athletes, showing that with passion and perseverance, they can overcome challenges and make significant impacts both on and off the ice.
Remember to follow "Our Kids Play Hockey" on your preferred social media channels and share your thoughts on this episode. For more inspiring hockey stories and tips for young athletes and their families, subscribe to our podcast.
Have questions, comments, or episode ideas? Reach out to us at team@ourkidsplayhockey.com. We love hearing from our listeners and are dedicated to bringing you content that inspires, informs, and entertains.
Our Kids Play Hockey is powered by NHL Sense Arena!
NHL Sense Arena, is a virtual reality training game designed specifically to improve hockey sense and IQ for both players and goalies. Experience the next generation of off-ice training in VR with over 100+ drills and training plans curated from top coaches and players.
Use Code "HockeyNeverStops" at Hockey.SenseArena.com to score $50 off an annual plan!
the hello hockey friends and families around the world, and welcome to another edition of our kids play hockey. Powered by NHL sensorina, we've got the first line of family hockey broadcasting with you here today. I'm leo lias, mike and Christy Casciano Burns, but our guest today is a legendary hockey player who won an NCAA championship with the University of Wisconsin back in 2011 and is currently in their ninth year of professional hockey in New York. Please join me in welcoming Trailblazer leader, parent and professional hockey player Madison Packard of the show. Madison, welcome to our kids play hockey.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Hey, thanks for being here. You know I want to start off right with this a little bit of your backstory. You're a native of Birmingham, michigan. It's where you started playing five years old. A lot of people on the show can relate to that. Walk us through your journey from youth to college.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I started skating when I was about three, playing hockey when I was five. I had I have an older brother and a younger brother, so, like most of my counterparts now, we wanted to do everything that my brother did, so my dad threw me on skates. I played most of my young years. I was either on a team with my older brother or my younger brother and then played for Little Caesars in Detroit, which is now a huge program, and got was fortunate enough to be able to go to University of Wisconsin, played four years there and then just the timing was kind of perfect when I graduated from college and the NWHL was starting at the time. So I moved out to New York to play one year of hockey and now I'm married with two kids, in a mortgage and still playing.
Speaker 1:Sounds like a real world life there. Yeah, because it is. You know, one thing I was noticing when I was researching was that when the NWHL was coming to be, it looks like you were getting ready for law school. So unique perspective here of suddenly there's a professional league to play in. You know, you also have your future, like professional future, staring at you. I imagine that must have been not the. It's a hard decision and easy decision, right, like on one hand it's like well, of course I'm going to play hockey, but on the other hand, like nobody knew what that was going to do at the time. So could you walk us through, maybe, the decision-making process of that and how you came to that decision to pursue this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't really. When I was getting towards the end of being at school, I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. I kind of thought, right that like everyone knows, and it just like, you get to the end of college and it's like, okay, this is what I'm supposed to do next. And it was really hard, especially having been an athlete. I think that everyone goes through it. But my perspective as an athlete like we had, we were used to being told for years, especially as an elite athlete, where to be, when to be there, your itineraries laid out for you, like there's not much decision-making, there's not much freedom. You know, you wanted to go to school dances. You can't, because you have practice, you have this.
Speaker 2:So my life was very structured and very like. You know, you had your goal that you had to work for and that was difficult. But outside of that, it was relatively easy to know what I was supposed to do because it was right in front of me. So then I graduate college and I'm like, oh, no idea what I'm going to do with the rest of my life, but the timing was perfect for, you know, to play a season in the end of the HL. I have the most supportive parents on the planet. So my dad was like okay, well, your mom and I will help you out financially, cause at the time we were making nope, I couldn't afford to live in New York and play professional women's hockey. So they helped me out. He's like and you can, if you're still wanting to pursue law school like you can, study for the LSAT and we'll support you in that. And so I did.
Speaker 2:I studied for the LSAT for that first year. I took it twice and did well enough to get into some of the schools I wanted to go to. But I got to play hockey for another year and I was like well, maybe I'll do it again and again. And I also. The more I played and like, the longer I was out here, I just couldn't imagine kind of in my head the kind of law that I wanted to do, and what I was interested in was I was going to be in an office in New York city 50 hours a week, my first few years of working to make a name for myself, and that just didn't sound fun to me. So I decided that I'm pretty firm believer in everything you do, you have to do all in, and I wasn't all in on it anymore, so I dropped out of that process.
Speaker 4:That took some courage, though, because the financial picture comes into play.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and again my parents. From day one I've just been so supportive and I think still my dad would be supportive of me going back to law school. He wants a lawyer in the family. But yeah, I just didn't. My heart wasn't in it and that was hard for me, so just moved on from it.
Speaker 1:I think you're bringing up a really important point, though that sometimes I get asked, especially by late teens, early 20s hockey players, that again the real world is suddenly in front of them and they say what should I do? I say, look, whatever you do, don't stop playing, play it. Play as long as you can, because there's gonna be a point you really can't play, either to the level you want to or just you literally can't play. And I said, even if you're coaching, play If you're working, find a way to play, but keep playing, because that time is not something you can get back.
Speaker 1:I think another point you brought up that's really important and I think that sometimes parents forget this, but sometimes kids get lost in this is that, especially when you're in your mid 20s, early 20s or in college, if you don't love what you're doing, now's the time to change Because, like you said, your heart wasn't in it. I think that's so important to know, because if you dive into a job, I mean you might be doing this for 40 years and you might not enjoy it. And I think sometimes we get pressure from our parents to succeed in the way they might envision it, which is placed in the heart, but you gotta love what you're doing. I think it sounds like that was the position that your heart took, and again you had very supportive parents, which is all huge, huge.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. I mean, it's obviously a place of privilege to be like well, I'm not enjoying this, I don't have to do it.
Speaker 2:Because, there's lots of things that you don't enjoy doing that you have to do in life. But I think, I don't know, I've just kind of always. I was, I guess, unfortunate enough to lose a friend when I was in high school, at a really young age, and that completely changed my perspective on life, and I think for me that's just changed how I look at things. Like I said, it changed my perspective and I have always been, for the most part, fortunate enough to be in a situation where, if it's not something I'm passionate about, I have the ability to pivot and do something else. And I've been fortunate enough to continue to be able to play hockey and make a living doing it. And I just saw Brad Marsha and Clip the other day. That totally resonated with me because it's exactly, I think, how most of us feel, certainly how I feel now.
Speaker 2:I'm 32, I've got two kids and I'm still playing pro hockey. I'll play as long as I can, because you just don't ever want it to end. It's like the greatest job in the world, right? You get to play a game for a living. And so I've been super blessed and I'm super grateful that I made that decision that I did back nine years ago not to go to law school because my life was very different and I would. I probably would have had a lot of great experiences there, but I wouldn't have any of what I have now and I wouldn't trade that for the world.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you're so fortunate. Let's talk about pro hockey now, the professional women's hockey league. What did that mean for you? It wasn't easy and I'm sure getting all the parties together to form it was challenging. And now that it's here, I mean you're getting great crowds and it's so exciting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been, I mean, incredible. Some of the you mentioned the crowds that we've been playing in front of. It's like before we were struggling to get three or 4,000 people in a building. Now if we don't have four or 5,000 at a game, it feels empty. We're playing in front of thousands and thousands of people every night. The buildings up in Canada are always sold out. So it's just been incredible from that standpoint, the marketing and things like that. The other day we were on the Today Show. I mean it's just there's so many positive things happening and the investment in the marketing and the visibility behind it is huge and that's been.
Speaker 2:I think the biggest piece we've missing previously is that accessibility factor. Right now you don't have to have a streaming platform, you just have to have a television. If you turn on your TV, you can watch us play. They're investing a lot in kind of the programming and the appearances that we're doing and getting our faces out there, so it's been hugely successful. Obviously, there's bumps in the roads everywhere you go. We're still learning even the. You know PWHPA, phf, nwhl those are all like infants and we so we're still new to this. I think we've been fortunate to ride the wave of all women's sport kind of popping off right now, learning a lot from the WNBA and the NWSL. So, as women's sport as a whole continues to do well, I think that we can continue to capitalize on that kind of rising tide, and it's been super cool to be a part of.
Speaker 4:It sure is, and that rising tide is so important, especially for, you know, girls who are just getting into hockey. I one of my articles that's featuring this month in USA Hockey Magazine. I had an opportunity to interview some women who are now involved in the growth of the game for girls and it's wonderful but it's bittersweet for them, I have to tell you. It's so bittersweet because they can't help but wonder what would it have been like for me had the professional women's hockey league been in existence when I was a little girl, you know. So there's some of that tug-of-the-heart strings, but so much excitement for what this is doing for girls who are now just falling in love with hockey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, and we often reference and right, thank the people before us, and in doing that, oftentimes the leagues are referenced you know the most recent leagues that have been but there are thousands of women that played hockey who didn't have a place to play. You know, I played Angela Regiro, caitlyn Cahill, molly Ingstrom, some of those players that were a part of the national team when I was, you know, a kid, looking up to them and growing up, who didn't play in the pro league because it was past their time, but they would have been and they were among, you know, in my opinion, some of the best to ever play the game, and those are just the Americans, obviously, but they didn't get an opportunity to play in the league, and so that's disappointing because who knows what they could have and would have done? But they're still advocating and pioneering in their own way for the game. They made a big impact on it and I think the most important part that we often overlook is like every wave of women before us empowered the women behind them to demand more.
Speaker 2:Right Now, good enough is not good enough. Hopefully, my daughter is gonna grow up not knowing what that glass ceiling is, and my son is growing up in a world where women are recognized as professional athletes and they're respected in their own right, and he spends every day at the rink, on the bus, around the team, so for him, I think it's gonna be cool just to see, from his perspective, how men and women compare. As far as you know what, we obviously still continue to show men professional athletes more respect. I don't know why, but I think that that's starting to change, and so for me, the most important part of you know what we're doing is that my kids grow up in a world where they view people as equal, regardless of their gender and regardless of what they do.
Speaker 4:We all hope that, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think one of the coolest parts too is I do a lot of work with like learn to play programs and rookie leagues and all kinds of stuff, and certainly here in the New York area the Rangers are a big proponent of that. So I did a clinic yesterday up in Northford Ice Pavilion I think it was one of the homes of the whale at one point, but I'm not sure. But you know, I had 56 little girls on the ice five, six, seven year olds and the coolest thing for me like usually at the end of these clinics, I'll dismiss the kids. You know so and you know Madison, having kids now, right, like you've dismissed all the kids at once. It's like 45 kids going to this four foot door trying to get off the ice at the same time. But I would go like, okay, who's an Adam Fox fan, who's a Lindgren fan? So yesterday I get this great opportunity to and you know, with the girls like, okay, well, who's a Madison Packer fan? And you get four or five girls stand up and who's Alex Carpenter fan? And four or five girls can, and they knew and they know the players Like, and the fact that they know the players and they're talking about, you know, this new deal with you know upper deck I think, but you know doing player cards and being more mainstream and being an opportunity where you know, when you get to talk with these young girls and predominantly like what I see in the rink, most of the time is it's dad with his daughter, because the dad's crazy he's like she's gonna be a hockey player.
Speaker 3:That's gonna be. You know, I'm gonna make this happen because I was a hockey player and now you're just starting to see that little, that little, I guess light, right, that that's like, oh, that you can play as long as you want in the sport, if, in fact, that's something you wanna do. But I think all kids need to aspire to something. So it is cool for me, in this short, very short period of time, to see the change in a girl wanting to be more like Madison Packer than Wayne Gresky. So it's a really fun.
Speaker 3:You know it's not to put you in the same not to be in the same category, but to just say like that's really cool that that player can aspire for that and see it. You know, to see it, you could be it, and the whole thing that really resonates in this league's, you know, maturation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's huge power in that right. Like when I was a kid, when I was really little, four, five, six, I wanted to play in the NHL and like in my head I was gonna do that because at that point there had been no other place for anyone to play. And then you have the 1998 Olympics. The women win the gold medal. I went to the Olympics in 2002 with my mom to watch in Salt Lake City and then that became I wanted to be in the Olympics because I saw women doing it and I knew, right, but that wasn't on TV. I had to literally go and watch it in Salt Lake City.
Speaker 2:So I think that that's hugely, hugely important for young girls. Now it's one thing to imagine something and visualize it and be like, okay, I'm going to do that. It's another thing to see it and know that that's actually possible because there's people doing it, like that's a real, attainable goal. And again back to my kids like we tell our kids, you can do anything, which maybe he's a stretch, like you can't fly, but we just say you can do anything. And you know, look at, for my whole life people told me that I was too small, I was too slow, I wasn't going to do it, I couldn't do it.
Speaker 2:Girls don't play hockey and myself and all the women doing what we're doing now are living proof that you can do things all the time that people tell you you can't do so I think it's hugely important for young girls. I'm going to play as long as I can because why not? But they now have a real dream and a real goal that they can push towards, and you know it's not going anywhere. So to be a part of that has been super special.
Speaker 4:Right, and I think that that's kind of the beauty of the league too. You're all so different, you're all so unique, but you all share some similar stories.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, matt, as I want to bring this up to you, brought up 1998, you know, just to kind of explain, I guess, the breadth of this whole thing. And again, women have been playing hockey for over 100 years and but for me personally, 1998 was an interesting year because I was a teenager and I'm watching the Olympics and I remember the men's team did horrible that year for the USA and suddenly the story of Kami Granado and the team USA coming to the forefront and that was my introduction to women's hockey and I was into it and I remember really just being so prideful hey, the USA won a gold medal, right. And so as a young man at that time, suddenly I'm seeing this too, like well, this is awesome, right, I want to watch this. And then I remember, equally, this is funny. I remember in 2002 being so mad at Haley Wickenheiser and like having that fan reaction of like well, wait a minute here. You know we didn't win.
Speaker 1:Now, at that time I obviously didn't have any children, but from that moment on, hockey was hockey to me, right. And now I have a young daughter and a son and they look to you, they look to all the women, they look to that league and, as you said, it is now the norm for them. Like, my daughter is not going to grow up in a world where that is not normal that women play professional hockey, and my son too, right, because I think the path forward involves everybody. Obviously, right, you have two young children. As you said, it's Harlan Wayland, correct? Yeah, and you're saying they're growing up in this world.
Speaker 1:So the evolution of both women's hockey, but hockey in general, is a really long path and look, your trailblazer in that. I mean, nobody ever likes to be told that I don't think, but you are your trailblazer. They look to you, they know you. Right, I'm going to actually share this for those of you watching. I got this really cool picture on my desk. This is my son and my daughter on the same team, right, and this is what they know. And obviously her teammates treat her as part of the team. There's no at that age, there's no discussion of she's a girl, they're a boy. But I want to dive into that again for a second of as a mother, right, as a parent, as someone in the game. This must resonate in a really incredible way, right, because I mean, you're changing the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think one of my teammates said it the other day when we were on a show together. She said you don't realize you're making history until it's done.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Because you just caught up in the moment, like I don't. I don't think any of us realize again, there have been so many people before us and we're just fortunate to be, you know, in this era where this opportunity exists. But it's just a part of what we do Like, it's what we love, it's what we want and for me, my kids are such a big part of it because I don't know if they want to play hockey or not. I don't. Whatever they want to do will support my aunt, my or my sorry, my aunt. Well, my wife is super musically gifted and artistic, so in my son's has some of that. So whatever they do will support full tilt.
Speaker 2:But you know, for me personally, I grew up in a male dominated world. I, much like your two kids, I played on teams with my brothers, like I said, but then as I got older I played on teams by myself. Some of the boys were pretty horrible and looking back, I didn't have any other choice. I wouldn't change it because it helped shape who I am. But a lot of my counterparts went through some pretty crummy things just because they were a girl and I always found it ironic because, like, girls are so much worse and so superior, then what are you afraid of? Why not let us play? And if you're so much better than we can't keep up, right. So, and if you're upset that you're getting beat by a girl, well then there's something else going on there.
Speaker 2:So just teaching my kids empowerment and like I don't, it's it we make such a big deal out of it, I think, and it's just, it's not this like crazy Notion that women are doing powerful things now, right, like they have been left out of the workforce for how long? Because they stay at home raising tiny humans who they're preparing for to be the next Wave of the workforce and then leaders of the world. So I think that for me, just in In stealing in my kids that idea that they can do anything and showing my son how his path forward has historically been easier than the one His sister will have and hopefully I'm a part of what's changing that that path forward for women, I think is important, but ultimately, just them remembering and knowing that they can do anything because it's been done before and they're you know they are now in a better position than the people before them to be successful and their job is to make the path a little easier for people behind them and whatever they do.
Speaker 1:Well, I can tell you that you are a big part of the way forward and you are innovating the future. I want to tell you that and thank you for that, from as a father, but also for the the. You know what you're providing for my children and you know. Look, and just to echo you, you know I played with several young ladies when I was growing up and they were often the best on the team and I remember we would, we would rally around them like any other teammate. Right, and that was part of this process. Right, because that would not have happened even 10 years before when I played. One thing I do want to bring up as well, and you kind of spoke about this earlier Something is changing in the way we view women's sports right now.
Speaker 1:You look at the ovation that Caitlyn Clark just got in the NCAA basketball world, the amount of sponsorship dollars that are now getting poured in the PWHL. I agree with what you said about the marketing and that this league is Much more organized and some of the leagues of the past it's not a shot at the leagues of the past. You have to go through that process to kind of get to where you're at. But when I see 18,000 people showing up and filling an HL arenas, something's different, something's changing, and I don't quite know what it is. I don't know if people are just finally willing to accept this For what it is.
Speaker 1:In the sense of that, it's completely normal that we should be celebrating women's sports, but I you know I I can pose this question to actually both you and Christie I love what I'm seeing. I love it for many, many reasons, but this really isn't about me, right, and I'm trying to understand. What is it that finally clicked that we can look at a Caitlyn Clark, the all-time NCAA scoring leader. It's not even gender specific. Or, you know, we can look in tennis, at a Serena and Venus Williams now as the best of all time, right, we can look at the PWHL, as that is professional hockey in 18,000 people plus show up to those games. What, what do you think has changed that's allowed for this to happen?
Speaker 4:Well, you can't deny the talent and the athleticism hundred percent of them today. It's it, I'm at all. It's good hockey. How can you turn away? It's? It's just amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that there's. I mean there's a lot. I can speak to the hockey part a little bit Just the accessibility, the buildings that we're in. I mean those buildings are expensive to rent. We don't own any of our buildings, right? So we finally have an investor who is willing to Put a ton of money in, whether that's, you know, make money, lose money, doesn't care. He wants to get it off the ground and get it going, and so he's willing to spend lots of money to get us in the markets that we need to be in for it to be successful, and in the buildings and, you know, tour here, here and there to play some games. And that's really important because it gets a buzz and it gets a hype. And then people, you know, engage in out of market games. You're seeing what.
Speaker 2:What happened in Toronto. I mean, hockey in Canada is huge. So those, the lowest teams, are doing better than the three US Base teams just in attendance and ticket sales etc. I mean the Toronto team has sold out every game this season. They could have easily played in Scotiabank and probably sold out a few more there.
Speaker 2:I think they just, you know, wanted to keep the risk low in the beginning. So it just shows that you know, if you build it, they will come, kind of mentality exists. I think for a long time we discredited women because we just thought, oh, it's women's this, it's women's that I mean. No, you know, for the most part women aren't as big, fast or strong. But there are other components to sports, in all sports that you play, that make the game entertaining. A lot of people argue that different sports involve more skill for women. I'm not going to get in that debate, but there's just different things about the game that people find interesting, and when you get the like Hermogeny, grumpy couch potatoes out of the twitter conversation and you actually analyze what's going on, it's pretty fun to watch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they don't play anyway.
Speaker 3:So I think there's a lot to be said too, as the as the game grows and I think that's one you know With you guys do with the grow the game piece of this is that when the game grows with girls, you're just building that fan base in. Because the fact is like, when I like, if I'm bringing a squirt team or a peewee team, if I go up to see celeste brown right and rit and I go into that arena, it is only you know there really is only you know maybe 1500 people there and you do. And then at the same night the rit Men's can sell out you know rochester americans arena. So the question then becomes well, what? What's the disconnect? Is it, is it the physicality? Is it the you know? Is it the promotion, is it? But I think personally I think it's more of the as the fan base grows and people start understanding that this looks Like the women's game to a youth hockey player, looks more like the actual game of hockey than the nhl. The nhl does not look like the game of hockey. It's crazy, it's like it's just a freak show of people, right, but the game itself the passing, the shooting, the positional play, the back checking, the physicality no doubt, looks more like a youth hockey game, um to a, to a coach and to a player, and I use like I use women's clips all the time.
Speaker 3:So I coach a year, you know, with colton and laura, with the whale right, and I could take I could literally take our women's practices, our connecticut whale practices, and they were great because the the battle drills that we would do, I could do with my pwe and vanham teams and they couldn't Mentally figure it out, you know. So it was a great challenge for me because, because I'm like man, these the skill level is there. It's just the speed, the angling and the way you play is more like Real. You know actual hockey in the scheme of things. So I think it's a great teaching tool as well.
Speaker 3:Get people in the building, see the game to your point. Now you can get all these clips on any Streaming device there is. You know, you don't, you don't have to go to, uh, what was the one? Uh, you don't have like a, you don't have to learn how to use twitch, right, or something like that. So now, now you're, now you really can see it anywhere, and now you turn it on and say, wow, that looks like a hockey game, like that, looks like the way a breakout should look, that that's what a four check should look. Um, and again, it's just, it is what it is. It's. It's the play of saying how can I teach the game? I think the women's game allows us, as coaches, to teach the game. Um, I don't know, I don't even know if that's the right way, but the the way that we want our kids to play right, right, and attendance is low.
Speaker 4:I have to tell you, because when my daughter was she just graduated from college All of the women's games, low attendance, no matter where we went, but that all of the men's games were packed. Um. So hopefully that will start to change and maybe with the development of the professional women's hockey league, we'll we'll start to see some of that effect, uh, on college campuses as well. Um, so yeah, there's still a ways to go on that level for sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I think the pro team, what they've done really well at the pro level I've sound is like when I was so when I was with the whale, everyone would call me up asking for free tickets. Dads of daughters, I'm like, if you want to support your daughter, buy the ticket. Like if you, if you want to support the sport, buy the ticket.
Speaker 3:You know, get in there and and support the players. Like, would you ask, would you ask me to give you a free ticket to the ranger game? No, you wouldn't. So Before the sport, especially if you have daughters, especially if you want to to rep, you know to, to see the sport succeed. Because the more inside I think it's been actually done pretty well. You know, I mean, I think I walk in the, I walk into, uh, you know, chelsea Pierce, connecticut, and I see a pro franchise, I see training rooms, I see offices, I see you know all the different equipment, manager pieces that you need. Everything is there, everything is accessible, just like any pro team would get. And I think that's where that's where it's starting. But again, this is what we're six months in, so it's it's just little incremental changes, but certainly they're definitely going the right way, for sure.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so hopefully, madison, we will see some impact On a wider scale with all of women's hockey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we're also in like where we play up in bridgeport is a difficult market for Tickets and things. You've seen that even on the men's side.
Speaker 2:Um it's difficult for the bridgeport islanders, I mean you know, yeah, so, um, I think it's coming along right, like you look at. I often look at the WMBA because I think that they do so much so well. Most notably, everything they do, they do in unity and together, um, and I think that that's just so cool and important and empowering, especially, um you know, as women like to support each other in that way, uh, and to have one united voice in front. Um, there they have completely changed the landscape of women's sport. I think oftentimes the us Women's national soccer team gets so much credit, um, but they should get paid. They were the best in the world, they were better than the men. What is the argument? Like that's? It's just so frustrating. Um, and I get like FIFA and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but like the us Soccer federation. There is no excuse. The women are better. They should get paid more money. Um, but the WMBA really Got creative in the way they did things.
Speaker 2:They scratched and clawed and fought for every inch They've gotten, and they are still not satisfied with what they have. They have what they want, more, they can do more, but their attendance, their arenas, everything has filled slowly and and gotten bigger and bigger and bigger, and, and they've been around for 26, 27 years. So I mean, we're, if you look at the Uh pwhl, this is, like you said, six months in. You look at you know, when Women's hockey started paying its players and we move forward from there. We're still only on year nine. So, um, we have a long, long way to go and we're super fortunate to have had that wave of women ahead of us who have Learned a lot of the big mistakes the hard way and and we are able to maybe not learn them in such a difficult manner. Um, but the hope is that eventually we can get to that Point as well.
Speaker 2:Um, but also hockey's tough right. Look at men's hockey and the number of teams that are struggling to sell tickets right now. It's just, it's not a super inclusive, uh, or accessible sport from the grassroots, because it's so expensive and there's a lot of other barriers to entry. Um actually working with the nhl foundation right now on a clinic in Detroit that will hopefully May open up the doors a little bit to some people from my hometown, but um, that's a big elephant in the room Is the barriers to entry, especially for girls. A lot of girls don't want to play hockey because they don't want to play with boys? Um, they're not.
Speaker 2:You know, I was New. From a really young age I wanted to play in the nhl, uh, and so most of the girls that I play with now, or women I play with now, if you ask them, they wanted to play in the nhl. So, from a very young age, to have that like goal and your eyes set on that. Now girls will want to play in the pwhl, but, um, that was my like drive and my focus, so I had something to go toward. I was willing to put up with all the stuff from the guys. Now you have girls hockey at young ages. You have, uh, pwhl for them to aspire to. So it's just the idea of how do we make it More accessible, more affordable for all people?
Speaker 1:So, men, it's an I want to turn towards something. I'm gonna turn the interview a little bit in uh, towards the kids a little bit. The possibility of listening to the parents, whether you're a boy or a girl and you have that dream. Nhl the w I'm sorry, nhl pwhl there's a lot of people, sometimes parents, sometimes coaches, that say well, you can't do that, you'll never do that.
Speaker 1:And I always tell, when asked People in that situation, I said don't tell them that. All right, you can tell them it's hard, you can tell them you got to put the work in. You can tell them not many people make it, but don't tell them they can't try to go for it. Don't tell them they can't do it. You know, and what I always try to say to my kids is you know that's a big goal that you got to put the work in. If you want to pursue, but you have the right to pursue it, right?
Speaker 1:I always say you know kids have a right to their dreams. You don't have to agree with it, but they have the right to the dream. So don't crush that now. Obviously I don't even want to. You know, guess, what it must have been like for you when you would say I want to play in the NHL as a kid, because I'm sure everyone was. Well, you can't do that, you know. But I wonder if you could talk to the parents, the coaches, even the kids listening, about the importance of having a dream, having a goal, that you are afforded the opportunity and the right to pursue that goal, and no one, no one, should ever take that from you, right? And then the understanding of how lofty of a goal it is to play professional sports.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think Obviously I've got two young kids, but the parenting piece is essential. I have a number of teammates that I played with who probably would have ended up in a much different position if their parents were more supportive and less berating after games. I mean my, my mom came to a lot of my games, grew up, her dad was a big hockey guy, but she didn't. She understands the game, but it's not like a hockey junkie in the way that like kind of I am, or he doesn't always understand the rules or whatever. But we just always said to me after the game great game. Kido. And my dad's same thing would come to every single game. Stand in the corner and eat a hot dog or popcorn, go, pull the car up. Afterwards I'd get in and all he would say to me was either great game, maddie pack, or great game, gretzky, where do you want to go for dinner? Like ever. If we wanted to talk about it, we could, we would, we would break the game down, like now. My one of my favorite parts of still playing is I call my dad after every game. It's the first thing I do when I get in my car. I call my dad and we talk for like an hour breakdown, every shift, every play.
Speaker 2:But for me as a kid, to have no Like fear of consequence, getting in the car or going home and like having not played well, having played great, my parents didn't care, I just was having fun. And that is what enables kids to have a safe space, to feel like they can dream, to feel like they can do anything. And there's a difference between can and will. But my parents always made me feel like I could. I had they, they, they matched my Commitment and it always made me feel like if I was willing to do what it took to get there, I could do it. And that's the truth. And you're gonna have hundreds of people throughout your journey and your career that tell you that you can't do it. And sometimes, sometimes it's just people being malicious because they can't do it themselves and they don't want to see you do it. Sometimes it's For me, a lot of times it was just parents that were bitter that their kid was getting beat by a girl and you know it just was a flu. Oh, her dad bought the pants. You know I'm she. She bought her spot on the team always something for why I was successful. And I.
Speaker 2:I've one thing that stands out like most clearly in my mind is this kid who was Particularly not nice to me, as when I was growing up, my last year playing boys hockey just made my life hell for no reason. And I saw him a few years later. He was working as like a maintenance guy at the local rank and like, clearly, his life didn't go the way he had wanted and I didn't even recognize him. But I had bought ice to go out and skate with my skills coach because I was home for a few days and he had. We had just won the national championship at Wisconsin and he came over.
Speaker 2:He's like he's a Madison, it's so-and-so. I was like what? And he goes do you remember me? We used to play together. Oh, oh my god, yeah, whatever. Chatted up. He's like yeah, I follow you, looks like you're doing pretty well. And I was like, yeah, thanks. And I wish at the time I had, like the, the courage to say thanks for telling me I couldn't, because this is what it looks like when you do right it just like was such a like full circle moment of like just sticking to it, and that's just one small example, right?
Speaker 2:But I think it's so important because there are so many people who see you doing things well and don't want those things for you for whatever reason, and you just have to keep plugging away because if you put your mind to it and it's doable, you can do it.
Speaker 1:Well, and you're also bringing up a great point that the people that tell you know and this was certainly true for me you got to turn that into motivation and and not the spirit hurts but like you got to use it right. I I one time thanked, I one time thanked all the Coaches and players who didn't believe in me and I really meant it. I wasn't being Sarcastic, because that motivated me to pursue Right. And at the end of the day, again when I talked to kids, I always kind of add on to the you should pursue your goal but understand the goals are not guaranteed Right and you have to put the work in because I just I want them to understand that part of it, that you have the right to pursue it. You are not guaranteed anything, because that really is a recipe for success as long as you have an understanding of that. That again, this is my opinion doesn't mean you should give up, doesn't mean you should quit. I think the pursuit of the goal, the pursuit of even failure, is almost always worth it because you're gonna learn and grow Right. But I don't think there's any way to achieve what you've achieved if you're not willing to try, if you're not willing to believe in yourself and, as you said, if you're not willing to have really positive people surrounding you, like your parents.
Speaker 1:One of our most popular episodes ever is called the car ride. Is not for coaching, which apparently for you and your father it is, but as an adult you can do that. But we talked about that, about. You know you got to meet kids where they're at and that when they hop in the car, like you said, hey, great game, gretzky, where are we going for dinner? As you said, when we're a kid, it might. It sounds like you weren't far off with your Gretzky analogy. There's a beginning of the show, but you know the ability to.
Speaker 1:Meet these kids where they're at to understand that right after the game, typically, unless the kid wants to talk about it, I will only talk to my kids if they want to talk about the game. I don't bring it up unless they do and I'm often on the bench Right. So you got to meet them where they're at. You got to make sure that they're enjoying it and cultivate. Again we said this you can cultivate a love of the game. You cannot create it. That is not within any of us individually to create a love of the game in our children. You can only cultivate. You can also ruin it if you're not careful. So I love that you're bringing up your parents and your dad and how important that was to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's like the biggest thing I learned, maybe even just this past winter with my son, wayland. Like I'm so excited for him to get all the ice, like got the whole bag of gear bottom, a whole bag of gear when he's like six months old. But we put him out on the ice and like he skated. Last year he was like the flag bearer one of the rebutters games and we had like he was pushing the little thing, but he's just like really not into it and Like for me I was the opposite by the time I was four years old Like my dad would throw me out on the pond and I would skate till my toes turn black, like I just loved everything about being out on the ice. And Um, wayland is just like wants to put the stuff on, stand on the ice, and then he cries and he wants to get off and like for me the first couple of times I'm like, no, like you can do it. And then I was like actually whatever, like if he doesn't like it.
Speaker 2:He doesn't like it because I don't want to ruin it for him and if he doesn't like it, whatever. Like I've been, I've got so much hockey in my life right Like maybe Harlan will come out of nowhere and surprise me right now she wants nothing to do with it either. Um, but like you said, you can't force it, and I think that sometimes maybe it's because I've been fortunate to achieve just about everything I've wanted and so I don't feel that need to like live vicariously through my kids. But I feel like that sometimes happens to I coach and a lot of kids I coach. You know my dad, you know, wants me to do this because he regrets. I'm like that's a bummer for your dad, but that's not your life, right, and I think that that's um unique for me because my parents never did put any of that on me. But you're not, you're not doing it, you're kid any favor by trying to continue to live out your dream or your journey through them, because it doesn't usually end well.
Speaker 1:So, madison, you've offered me an insane opportunity here. Typically, I am the youngest hockey parent on the show. Uh, as we said, christie's daughter played NCAA hockey. Uh, mike's kids in the middle of their journey. But suddenly I'm sitting here and I realized my kids are slightly ahead of your kids on this journey, uh, so Mike and Christie are going to watch me for a second because they are great mentors to me. Uh, but I get to tell you this really cool thing that I have taken the same approach with my kids, right, and your kids are several years younger than mine and my son is 10 and, uh, they both play, but I never pushed them.
Speaker 1:And suddenly, at 10, something clicked for my son, where he is now practicing on his own all the time. He's always in the, the basement shooting, and he's coming to me for questions, and it is the most wonderful thing in the world when that happens, right, but it it took him till 10 to get there and I, again, I had the notion of when he's ready, it will happen, and I I could tell you, I said this to you, it's like you want it to happen, but it did. It kind of organically happened, and then my daughter is following suit. Um, some of it's the little little sibling thing, but she is the same way, right. So, yeah, again, you can cultivate it. You know and and believe me it, it I'm beyond very honest with the audience.
Speaker 1:It tried my patience. Like you want them to practice, you want them to love it, like you love it. But you can't make them do that. And he's organically got himself there and it is the most wonderful feeling. So I'm telling you, as an older hockey parent now, that I think that that's exactly the right way to do it. Um, and, and, kristy and Mike, how did I do? Is this? Is this good?
Speaker 4:Listening to you older hockey parent you're still a baby.
Speaker 1:I'm still a baby. That's very true. That's what I got a question for.
Speaker 4:So this mom reaches out to me a couple of weeks ago, uh, she knew my daughter played hockey and they're kind of at a dilemma. So her daughter plays on an all boys team. She's 12 years old Now. They're at the age where they're thinking they don't know. Do do we keep her with a boys? There is an opportunity to go to a girl's team.
Speaker 4:Dad is saying stay with the boys, she's going to become faster, tougher and all of that. Mom is saying I really like this girl's team. They're very good, she can bond with them. She's not allowed in the locker room with the boys team. She has to dress separately and everything. The girls team she's going to be with all these fantastic young women or very talented. Uh, boys team. Dad is saying no, no, stay with the boys, she's going to become more aggressive, better player. Well, I don't know how to advise them. I don't know how to advise them for me. My daughter switched at age 12. She was on an all boys team. We put her on an all girls team and it was a great experience for her. Um, how, what would you advise moms who are kind of an end to ads or in this dilemma?
Speaker 2:Play boys hockey as long as they can. I just, um, I personally think that, uh, kids should play co-ed like and like. It should just be co-ed hockey when they start playing and then obviously there's varying levels of talent and ability, so you have to branch off as they get older. But, um, for me, a big part of my development was playing boys hockey because at the time you, you could hit as a Pee Wee. So we learned to hit when I was bigger than all the boys, because I grew first and then they caught up. But I already learned how to hit. And then I had to think the game faster than them because they were bigger and faster. So I had to know what I was going to do with the puck before I got it. I had to know what was coming before it was coming at me. Because, I right, you have to constantly think faster. So it increases your hockey IQ. I think now it's great.
Speaker 2:I'm not. I don't. I'm a huge proponent and fan of women, of girls hockey. We need to have girls teams, because that's a big reason why we don't have girls coming into the sport, because of the social aspect. But if she's on a team where she's comfortable and she has friends and she feels accepted and then, like safe in that space, play boys hockey as long as she can, because not all girls have that opportunity, not all girls can, and when she makes the switch to girls hockey it slows down a little bit. So she's going to continue to be able to see plays and make plays at a higher, faster level and it's going to help her stand out.
Speaker 4:Interesting Okay.
Speaker 2:And that's the reason then absolutely switch. I mean, that's the biggest reason that girls stop playing sports is the social aspect.
Speaker 4:So Exactly, yeah, okay, something for moms to think and dads to think about when you're or if she's a kid to get hit.
Speaker 2:that's another piece of it, too, which is totally real, like the minute you're afraid to get hit. You have to switch, because that's when you're going to get hurt. I agree, and that's that's what happened with with my daughter she's the boys at age 12, 13.
Speaker 4:We're getting a lot bigger and they were going from the ponytail. You know what I mean. Yeah, that's when I was 13 or 14.
Speaker 2:I mean, I had gotten hit in a game and it was like I got hit by a really big kid and then my dad started to notice like I would start to shy away or whatever, and he's like I got to make a change because you're going to get hurt. Shy away from stuff like that, exactly.
Speaker 4:Okay, lots of good stuff to think about.
Speaker 3:I think sticking to that, that development theme right, and a lot of coaches listen to this and watch what we do. I think, and having been, you know, having the unique perspective of being on the ice with Laura Brennan and Colton Orr for a year, I what I appreciate the most and maybe you could speak to this Madison with your team currently, and then the development of women's hockey and girls hockey is how you know, and Laura's a soft spoken, quiet person, you know, is not screaming and yelling on the ice, and neither is Colton Orr, which you would think he would be, you know, from an outsider's perspective. But just the way they teach, I never felt at any time on the bench, behind the bench, on the ice, that they were coaching differently or fluctuating the way they spoke about the game. Maybe technique wise was a little different, but maybe you speak a little bit about how you know coaches of young girls need to just coach ice hockey and not worry about, you know, the fact that they're with girls, I mean, other than a social piece of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's the hardest part of for some coaches in switching from coaching boys to coaching girls, or men to women. Like we don't this notion that we have to treat each other differently is like. Girls can take it, women can take it Like. I think a lot of times you see, like kid gloves and oh, we don't want to make them cry or we don't want to like it's, it's um, I don't know. I played for some pretty tough coaches growing up and I think it helped shape me into who I am. Women compete in the same way as men. We have the same mindset, the mentality, same drive, goals, ambitions. We can take critical feedback in the same way. So I think that that's hugely important Coaches recognizing that the only difference is the size and the speed in the game, not the way you coach it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so follow up question for me. You've been heavily involved with youth sports, right, Youth girls hockey as a GM. You know one of the topics we broach a lot on this show is the importance of placing kids developmentally on the right team and not AAA, AA, B. You know we get so lost in the letters. We always joke we're going to make the first quadruple A team become millionaires by doing that. But could you talk to your experience again as someone who has managed this, the importance of placement for development and that you know as a parent?
Speaker 1:This is how I'd like to approach it. How do you know when that's been done? Right? Because, look, we all want our kid to make a great team, All right, like that's no one's hiding that, right? But I'm more focused on is this the right team for them to get better this season? And we're talking probably the younger half of youth hockey here. Like I do understand the need, as you get older, to compete and to make the best team possible, but I think placement and development are paramount if you want to be playing at a high level. Yeah, I am.
Speaker 2:So I used to be the GM of a program that I actually I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but I'm going to intentionally folded, because I was so upset by the politics and youth hockey Like I was mind blown about how much money we're charging oh, you have to have this many kids on this roster and I'm like that is not at all in the best interests of the kids, right, and it's just, it was like so infuriating to me to get on the other side of the curtain and no disrespect, but it was mostly like old men making decisions for young girls.
Speaker 2:I'm like, how many, how much experience have you had being a kid in that locker room? Zero, so I think one. We need more women who have had, who have gone through that journey, to come back and give back to the game. It's like the unwritten code and rule with the game that give back what it gave to you. We need more women to come back and coach and mentor etc. But also you have to find a way to get the best team possible. You have to find, like you said, the right fit and it should be a mix of kids love hockey at all different levels. If we're talking about eight year olds, like we're not looking for the next Conor Bidad, we just want them to have fun and fall in love with the game. I think that's the biggest thing.
Speaker 1:You're sure about that. You're sure that we should not be looking for Conor Bidad at eight years old?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you've got a Conor Bidad at eight years old, so you can start investing in private lessons Right Because you're not going to be armed Right.
Speaker 2:But I think that's the biggest thing, that, at least for me and my experience, I mean I would play hockey until I was 50 if I could, because from such a young age just instilled in me was this love of the game and I think that's what's made me so passionate about continuing to grow. It is that hockey has given me. I mean, without hockey I don't have my family, my kids, my home, my career. It's not just the game, right, there's so much more that comes with that. And you know I go to events and I like giving back and work with the NHL foundation. But it's because it's had such an impact on my life and that was instilled in me at such a young age, because my best memories I mean I have won championships at every level my most fond memories of hockey are playing on the pond with my brothers, playing on the rink in my backyard with my neighbors, like it was just having fun.
Speaker 2:And that's where when you get kids into hockey, it's not going to be fun to play on a, you know, aaa mini-mite team and never play. It's not fun to make the squirt B team and be the best player, but you get to be at the top of the roster and your dad gets to brag about how good you are, like it has to be the right fit, but it also has to be the right why, for the kid, like, why do they want to be there? Are they doing it because they want to get better at hockey? Most eight-year-olds don't have that, you know, like that ambition and vision. So I think just finding an environment where they can have fun and cultivate that love of the game, that's what's going to make them most successful down the stretch.
Speaker 1:You know we're recording this right before the kind of the eval season and it's always funny to me because and again I'm not saying this as a brag, I just I'm typically pretty calm at evals, at least at this point in my life. You know I want my kids to do good but I don't put too much emphasis on the team that they do or do not make, and I have a lot of conversations with parents about this and I kind of have to tell them and again, I'm not trying to sound, oh, not really not. I just I just try to share this with the audience it's like no one's judging you on what team your kid makes. Nobody, nobody leaves a tryout going. Well, that kid, you know they're thinking about their own kid, right, and if you are, if you are the parent, that's kind of like ripping on other kids like you're. You're a jerk Right, like it's, like it's, like it's isn't going on your long-term resume.
Speaker 1:You know we had this, this great opportunity Andrew Alberts was on the show the other day, nhl player and and we we asked them. You know, when you're looking at, when you're looking for for teams, do you look at a kid's might resume? Do you look at a kid's you know Bantam resume, you know we don't. It's not what we look at, right. So I just wanted to get your thoughts on that because, again, when it comes to eval, it's like you should be able to look at a team and look it's not always going to be fair, it's not always going to be right. There are going to be years that you're very disappointed. There's years are going to be elated but at the end of the day you got to be a look at the team and say my kid can grow here, my kid can can find something to change about their game here, and it's very important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think putting your kid in an appropriate environment Is the only thing that's going to help them be successful, like if they're. If they're playing with players that are so much better, they can't keep up, they're not going to develop, they're going to be self-conscious. It's not going to be a fun experience and the same thing on the other end of that. So finding an environment, and it's hard to be impartial. That's why you have you know what they're supposed to be qualified and impartial evaluators but, I, Think that you know.
Speaker 2:A message, I guess, also to the people that are evaluating those teams, is just like Remember what you're doing and why you're doing it. For me, when I was a kid, I got cut the first team I was ever cut from. I'd been on the team for like six years and we went to Colorado Because it was like midwinter break and I was you know. Oh, you already have a spot on the team, go ahead. My family had a place in Colorado at the time. My dad got a call on a chairlift. Oh, she should be had to cut her she's. You know, she didn't have a great season last year and we had some really strong players come out to tryouts and my dad was like she had the most points on the team. What do you mean? She didn't have a good year, well at that, and you know she's a little undersized.
Speaker 2:I was the second biggest kid on the team. So just the whole roundabout, right? Well, it's because she's a girl. Like, stop cutting kids because of their gender and and allow them to be an environment where they can be in an environment where they can get better. Girls are not threatening to boys. Girls still need to be able to play boys hockey, especially the ones that are ahead of the curve right, and by doing that to kids, their kids You're sending the completely wrong message. For years I like really struggled with why. Like I had that whole season of hockey. I bounced around trying to find a place to play. I was always one of the top five kids on the ice, but they never. But but so many teams were like, well, she's a girl. So my dad stopped telling people I was a girl and I would get dressed in the car and we would tuck my point my pigtails up into my helmet.
Speaker 2:And then, the minute they found out I was a girl, it was like world ending and it's just amazing story and so I People need to recognize, like when you have the power to make or break a kid's future career, right, remember what you're doing. I mean you're even your issue with the parents, right? I know kids that have been cut from teams. I've considered doing it because the parents are just complete nut job, but it's like it's all right. You don't get to pick your parents and, but not everyone is.
Speaker 2:You know, I had had that experience of being cut for a girl and thinking it was crap, and so I'm not ever gonna do that to a kid unless the kid has done something that they deserve a serious shake as anyone, but not everyone's like that, and so I'm. I guess a message to the parents is Relax, you're not the one on the other side of the glass. But also to people making those choices, like Remember the choices you're making for kids in the circumstances that they have to deal with, if that that parent is gonna be that parent everywhere they go.
Speaker 1:So Well, and, mike, I'd love for you to jump on this too, but my attitude is always if there's a player they can help the team, be great. I want that player. I don't I don't Personally don't care the gender here, right, like, if you're a good hockey player, you're good hockey player. I want you on the team. Now, again, that might have evolved over time, and I think the need for independent evaluators is so important. If Organizations could break some of the stigmas behind the politics, which is that's an uphill battle, for sure, and there are look, there are things, there's siblings that play together, and I understand that. But you know we always talked on the show, mike, that you know, if you were gonna do a perfect evaluation, everyone would have the same jersey, the same helmet, parents wouldn't be in the arena and teams would be picked by someone who's not even part of the organization. Again, it's not that simple, right, mike? But but that that would be the way you'd have to do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a whole nother 10 podcasts would have to do, but I think, I think, I think it's just, I think for me, like it's never about gender, but it is there, is, there is a for for being a an old hockey guy for the last, you know, 40 years now in my professional life. I think the, the, the, the parent influence coming into a lot, into a rank, is huge at the youth level, and I think it's just as important for administrators, though, to lay that out ahead of time. Like, listen, we need a unit here. We need a cohesive group of men and women and girls and boys and parents, because we don't get to. You know, you, just as unloyal parents are, the kids are never the unloyal ones, right? There's no eight-year-old saying I need a challenge to go play at the highest level and that team, you know, if they just hear and they parrot what mom and dad say, that's it, or they parrot what another parent is telling them, I think, at the end of the day, you know we had we, and again, this is I don't know.
Speaker 3:I guess the, the, the pessimists of me, always says well, it's, it's, it's coming together with more girls Comes more opportunity and the girls that just want to play. Girls can play. Girls with more. With more players the talent gets better. Really good girls will play with really good boys. That works, you know. And then, and then if you can start working out Organizations where I know, like in the Connecticut, in the Northeast region, a lot of girls double roster with boys so at some point they can move. I mean, I think you know to Madison's point earlier. I mean me as a hockey director have always been like well, the reason the, the reason I like to start girls programs earlier, is Because then there's there's two things that happen if you have six really good girls and by banning year they all decide I don't want to play hockey with boys anymore because of checking you don't have any boys to replace them. So all of a sudden there's this huge void in your, in your small, in your organization.
Speaker 3:Now am I talking about the big behemoth organizations like Madison We've seen, like in the Northeast right? There's organizations they don't care who you are, what you do, they just they're just sucking up every kid from everywhere and damaging all those layers of kids and Eating up the little guy. And I'm just always like, well, if I'm the little guy. I want more opportunity and I'm gonna. I'm gonna be very you know, up front with everybody on how we run our organization. If you don't want to be here, that's fine, but parents do Listen. Parents do make a big difference. They make a huge difference.
Speaker 3:And when you have to Pick that kid maybe not the highest levels If you're trying out for the national team at the end of the day so he's like I don't know, I'm not gonna see the parent anyway, like, this person is not involved in my life, but the more, the more pro coaches and really college coaches you talk to now that, knowing that that parent is so involved, how they do it. I don't know my father, my father never went to my games. He was working, yeah. So all these college kids are like, have their dads and moms at every game and they're involved in every aspect of their life. It becomes more and more a part of the player. You know, because even you, madison, when you play in college, your parents weren't calling to talk about ice time and where you were in the pecking Order, but now it happens every day. The parents are, the are the agent, the parent, and now it's, they're the agent of the 16, you, the 12, you, the 10, you and that that agent piece is Infected.
Speaker 3:Not just hockey, by the way, because I do lacrosse as well. It's the same everywhere. But again, this is. But we could fight it. I'm a fighter on that side.
Speaker 3:I'm like listen, we're laying, this is who we are. Come here if this is where you want to be, and then we're gonna make sure that your kid has a great experience and we're laying it on the table. The only person that could make that experience really bad is you, and I think. But again, that takes a lot of forward thinking, lee, we talk about all time. It takes a lot of communication and it takes a lot of laying things on the table. That, listen, this is who we are and this is how we're gonna run things. But I do think the sport is in getting better in a lot of ways. But at the same time, I walked out of a rink yesterday and you, every car was a BMW, maserati, range Rover, and you know it's just not. It's. The sport is shrinking for a lot of people, but adding more sports for women and boys is just going to help everything. I think that the theme of that access piece is huge, but again, don't be a knucklehead mom and dad and back to the parents.
Speaker 4:I'd love to hear Madison talk about this and give this message to parents who are listening right now. And you're so right, my parents are there's snow plow parents right. They want to plow the way the kids because they're so afraid of seeing their children fail at anything in school, in hockey, and they equate that to failing in life. And, madison, your parents got it right. They were hands off. They let you create your own passion, your own drive and kind of figured things out. They were there to guide you, but they weren't there to plow the way for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's. You're prolonging the inevitable if you just like, paved the way the whole way, and someone said it earlier. But this notion that, like you can get whatever you want is very different from having a dream. It's tough when you like, when you're dealing with high school aged kids who want to go play in college. I mean, I can tell pretty quickly if a kid has any shot at playing D1 or not, and but everyone wants to play Division one. I met with a player of mine earlier this year who gave me a list of schools and they were like all top five schools in the country for hockey and I was like, have you even looked at any of these programs? And she was like no, I just heard they had good hockey teams.
Speaker 2:Like I'm like well, yeah, and they're all. I mean that's pretty, that's a lofty, lofty goal. Like you're probably going to have to post grad two years and invest in a lot of skills lessons. Like you, you can have any dream you want, but but the ability to get there, you know it's. It's a lot of it's a hard work and I used to have parents on my back all the time. Why isn't my kid this like? Why isn't my kid that like?
Speaker 2:To give you an idea of what my life as a kid was like, I didn't go to dances. I had a lot of friends but we didn't hang out much. I I my parents organized with my school. So my junior and senior year I had. My last hour of class was a study hall. So three days a week, on top of going to my team practice and workouts, I would go do a workout on my own with a with a foot speed coach off the ice. I did and I did power skating twice a week. That was my life and I loved it, and I trained at home with a trainer that my parents invested in for me to have, you know. So it was a big investment on my parents end and I was fortunate that they could supply me with those resources and those jewels, but I worked for it I, you know it didn't do a lot of the fun things Didn't go to the parties, didn't go on senior spring break Like I was. I was invested fully in hockey in that journey, because that's what I wanted more than anything.
Speaker 2:I still could have fallen short, for sure, but this idea that you can just kind of like mispractice and and oh, I want to go to this instead of come to that.
Speaker 2:But I also want to go to Ohio State, like no one on Ohio State's roster is like halfwaying their way there and it's not even, you know, even if you work really, really hard and give it everything you have, that's a really hard team to make.
Speaker 2:And so I think that at some point, you know, because we're in this small bubble where it seems so common, playing college sports is actually super hard, like right, it's less than 1% of athletes playing sports at the youth level go on to play in college and then less than one 10th of that 1% go on to play in the pros. When you're in that world, it seems so like common and attainable because everyone's doing it, but it's really not. And so I think that it's important for people to keep again perspective and just that, like just because you want it doesn't mean you have it, and at some point our society has shifted to this like instant gratification idea and this concept that you know my kid can have whatever they want. You can think that way, but like the coach isn't going to make a place on the team just because you want it. You have to earn it. You have to earn every single thing you get.
Speaker 1:Right, you know, as in closing the suckers were running out of time. You know Nick Saban, just retired, greatest coach in college football history, and one of the reasons he said was because of what you're talking about. He said the season ended, guys were throwing their helmets and the first two questions he got was how much money can you offer me to stay next season and I'm going to transfer out of here if you can't? And he said he just knew it was time to leave because he can't coach under those conditions in college. Right, I mean, pro is a different world for stuff like that. But yeah, you are seeing this happen. So I want to end on this question. Positive question Played for a lot of coaches. Played for Mark Johnson, right, pretty, pretty notable coach in women's sports. What are your favorite aspects of the coaches that you've had? You've been a coach yourself. What do you think goes into making them great coaches?
Speaker 2:I think, the best coach I ever had two coaches, I guess, dennis Boomer and Earl Size, where my coaches that year when I got cut from the team when I was gone on vacation and then needed to find a new team Right, and the thing, the biggest thing I learned from Earl was just the value of hard work and determination. You know, he created a spot on the team for me when no one else would and he treated me the exact same. He didn't treat me like a girl, so he didn't give me, you know, special treatment or make the boys feel like they had to include me in any way. He just treated me like he did everybody else, and that made it easier for everyone else to treat me that way because you know, if I was doing something good or bad, I got the same kind of praise or criticism as my counterparts. And then there was no well, she gets special treatment because she's a girl, you're harder on her or whatever. And then, in the same way, dennis Boomer, I think, taught me the value of team when I made his team in the middle of that year and Earl was like, yeah, that's a better place for you to go. Go beyond that team.
Speaker 2:There was a kid at the time whose dad was like my son is not playing with a girl, and so Dennis, or coach Boomer, was like, perfect, we don't have to buy jerseys, then she can have his. He's gone. That's how. That's how he came. Number 14 is.
Speaker 2:I gave me his jerseys and I was on the team and then it was just like such a strong moment for me of like the importance of character, right, and that, and that's what I learned from that coach didn't owe me anything. I skated with his team twice. He thought I was good and told my dad I made it, and then he had a kid that had played for him for four or five years. That was like he was like, okay, bye. And so I think that just one, like I said that that idea of treating everyone the same and treating all your superstars the same, way you treat your role players, is important, and also the power and importance of culture in a locker room. If the person at the top is going to hold people accountable and has strong character, then it's pretty easy for your players to follow suit.
Speaker 1:It's a great point and also you're echoing this, the the. The understanding that someone believes in you is so important for kids and youth athletes. Not everybody coaches that way and not everybody needs to coach that way, but even assistant coaches or parents. The feeling of someone believes in me is so powerful and I think we we don't put enough emphasis on that. So just fantastic answer, Mike Christie. Before I close this out, I always like to throw it to you too.
Speaker 4:I just love that story. You were playing with a girl Bye, awesome. Wow, love that. Your joy. Thank you so much. We learned so much from you today. We appreciate you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1:Mike, any final words? You're just nodding your head. A lot on the canvas, not as great.
Speaker 3:I've watched in Madison's journey and I think her wife has actually filmed my game winning goal in a ranger assist program back in the day. So I'm gonna have to dig up. I'm gonna have to dig up that video of me scoring my goal with Adam Graves and Stefan Matau in Danbury, connecticut, back in the day. But I think it's like I said, I think it's really great to watch how much and it really is down the road it is. I think you said it earlier you don't know you're making history until after you've made history Sometimes. I mean, it's like you're gonna see that this point in time was how impactful and really how strong it is for anybody in the sport, let alone girls, and I think it's just, it's really a pleasure and fun to watch this whole, this whole process, take place in real time.
Speaker 1:Well, look, I'm gonna close it out there. Medicine's given us more than an hour of our time and we just really appreciate you coming on you gotta get that kid.
Speaker 3:She's gotta get that kid on the ice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you gotta run, so that's gonna do it for this edition of our Kids Play Hockey Medicine again from all three of us. Thank you so much for giving us the time today. We appreciate you being here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you guys, it was fun.
Speaker 1:It goes both ways. So remember all the episodes, all of them available at ourkidsplayhockeycom. You can email us a team at ourkidsplayhockeycom. Once again, if you have a question, if you have an idea for a show, if you want to ask any of our guests guests, guests a question we got there, you can do it there. But that's gonna do it for Kristi Cash, anna Burns, mike Benelli, madison Packard, emily Elias. We'll see you on the next edition of our Kids Play Hockey, powered by NHL Sensorena. Skate on everybody. We hope you enjoyed this edition of our Kids Play Hockey. Make sure to like and subscribe right now if you found value. Wherever you're listening, whether it's a podcast network, a social media network or our website, ourkidsplayhockeycom. Also, make sure to check out our children's book when Hockey Stops at whenhockeystopscom. It's a book that helps children deal with adversity in the game and in life. We're very proud of it. But thanks so much for listening to this edition of our Kids Play Hockey and we'll see you on the next episode.