In this episode, host and Chief Executive Officer, Chuck Kasky, Esq. speaks with Director of Legal Affairs, Kathleen Dartez, Esq. about the importance of fair housing and how REALTORS® can ensure that everyone has equal access to housing.
Learn how fair housing laws protect against discrimination based on an individual's race, color, national origin, religion, sex, familial status, and/or disability. Kathleen also shares some common examples of current and past housing discrimination, as well as resources that can assist individuals in navigating a fair housing complaint. Throughout the episode, Kathleen emphasizes the importance of education and outreach to promote fair housing and create more inclusive communities.
Check out the resources below:
2023 NAR Fair Housing Challenge
https://www.nar.realtor/videos/2023-presidents-challenge
Fairhaven Simulation
https://www.nar.realtor/fair-housing/fairhaven
Implicit Bias Video
https://www.nar.realtor/videos/bias-override-overcoming-barriers-to-fair-housing
In this episode, host and Chief Executive Officer, Chuck Kasky, Esq. speaks with Director of Legal Affairs, Kathleen Dartez, Esq. about the importance of fair housing and how REALTORS® can ensure that everyone has equal access to housing.
Learn how fair housing laws protect against discrimination based on an individual's race, color, national origin, religion, sex, familial status, and/or disability. Kathleen also shares some common examples of current and past housing discrimination, as well as resources that can assist individuals in navigating a fair housing complaint. Throughout the episode, Kathleen emphasizes the importance of education and outreach to promote fair housing and create more inclusive communities.
Check out the resources below:
2023 NAR Fair Housing Challenge
https://www.nar.realtor/videos/2023-presidents-challenge
Fairhaven Simulation
https://www.nar.realtor/fair-housing/fairhaven
Implicit Bias Video
https://www.nar.realtor/videos/bias-override-overcoming-barriers-to-fair-housing
As our listeners know, April is Fair Housing month. This year we commemorate the 55th anniversary of the passage of the Fair Housing Act, the landmark civil rights law signed by President Lyndon Johnson on April 11th, 1968, that made discrimination in housing transactions unlawful. It's important to remember that the whole transaction is within the scope of the act, not just real estate brokerage services. It includes lending, insurance, title appraisal, and other services. That's sometimes we forget that it's also a basic human concept and right for people. We are entitled to be free of any form of discrimination in our communities. People from diverse backgrounds should be warmly welcomed as our neighbors. Discrimination in housing is not just a relic of a distant past, it's still with us. There are really two distinct but related ways this manifests itself. One is current ongoing fair housing violations. The Long Island Investigative Reporting is, but one example. But some of the most damaging examples of discrimination are found in the past, including minority neighborhoods that were purposely located far from quality schools, public transportation and jobs. Addressing those historic inequities is and will continue to be one of our most important and difficult challenges as stewards of the right to own, use and transfer private property, realtors know and open housing market free from discrimination, benefits, consumers, communities, and the American economy. Yet more than half a century after passage of the Fair Housing Act, the home ownership rates for African Americans, Hispanic Americans, and Asian Americans lag that of white Americans. We are committed to the enforcement of Fair Housing laws and to adopting policies that remove historic barriers to home ownership. Hello, I'm Chuck Caskey, Marilyn Realtors CEO O and you are listening to Get Real Estate, the Maryland Realtors podcast. I'm pleased to be joined today by Marilyn Realtors, director of Legal Affairs. Kathleen Dart, welcome to the program, Kathleen.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Chuck, it's a pleasure to be here and I'm looking forward to our conversation today.
Speaker 1:First, you are very passionate about this issue, so I'm gonna really let you do the majority of the talking today. But I wanted to first just see if there's anything you'd like to add to that intro.
Speaker 2:Uh, no, actually, I, I think just a couple things that you touched on really resonated. Um, it is truly unfortunate and, and shocking in some ways that we are still addressing these issues, right. More than 50 years after the passage of the Fair Housing Act. And, and as you know, we teach Fair Housing on a regular basis and it is an unfortunate reality that there is never a shortage of topics to discuss. It seems like every week there are new headlines in the news about, you know, some lender or appraiser or, you know, whatever it might be. But it's still continuing. It's still ongoing, you know, within our realtor community and also within the real estate industry as a whole. So you're absolutely right. We still need to be focused on this and really be paying attention and take action on a regular basis to, to move this forward and finally move past this to provide everyone with an equal opportunity to purchase homes and live in homes of their choice, in their neighborhood of choice. That's what it's all about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I, I just came, it, it occurred to me when I was preparing for today's episode, this kind of bifurcated approach to it. On the one hand, the current, as you said, that's still going on. While we're also trying at the same time to address the impacts lingering longlasting impacts of, of prior discrimination, and I know you and I have similar experiences teaching fair housing, for example, where we say, obviously we teach it that, you know, treat everybody the same. Right? So everybody's treated equally. That's what we have to checklists. You ask the same questions to avoid steering, you don't subject certain people to certain qualifying issues or matters that you wouldn't impose on other people. And so we talk about equality as it relates to our treatment of people under the current fair housing laws, but on the same, by the same token, the damage is done. So how do we, how do we try to address and, and if undo, if you will, the damage the, from the historic major historic discrimination that we have experienced and trying to address that. So to me, those are two different things because to actually address and kind of make better the damage that was done in the previous centuries, if the, you know, century or more before even the passage of the Fair Housing Act is gonna take a little bit more than just treating everybody the same because they were treated so dissimilarly for so long that it's just, it needs more than that. Right. And that's how come I, that's the way I, I come to this seeing it in two, from two different perspectives. Right. Cuz there's really two different problems. So,
Speaker 2:Right. I, I think Yeah, I, I agree with you on that and I think, I think I, I'm happy that part of that problem is finally be being addressed or Right, or at least we're having the conversation. I, I sometimes, if I'm teaching a class, I'll say, I'll just tell in myself, I, you know, I'm an attorney. I went to good schools, I'm well educated, and I was not aware of a lot of these things. I'll be perfectly honest, you know, the, the color of law, we'll talk about some book recommendations later. Exactly. But the color of law is really an excellent book. And I, you know, I, I grew up here, I grew up in Northern Virginia, right? I, I, I was just absolutely unaware that some of these things were happening, or I thought they only happened in the deep South. So yeah, I think, you know, all of us, um, you know, you, you're gonna treat everybody the same. That's the short and easy answer. But we really do have to recognize that everyone is not starting from the same place. Right, exactly. Everyone's families have not had the same experience. There have been some really bad practices, uh, that, you know, our government put some practices and policies in place. Our realtor organization was not always on the right side of things either. So I'm, I'm encouraged at least that we're having conversations and having honest conversations. And I agree with you a thousand percent. I think that's a big part of understanding the process, understanding how we got here, which helps us understand how to move forward.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, I'm not from Baltimore. I didn't grow up here, but it came to me rather late in life as well to know that Baltimore, Maryland in general, what Baltimore specifically was at the epicenter. I mean, they created some of this, the redlining and the discriminatory practices originated right here in Baltimore. And a lot of people don't know that, but just read the, another, another good read is the ba the Black Butterfly, to get a really good historical perspective along with color of law more broadly in the federal governments involvement, et cetera. But if you want some specifically about Baltimore, uh, the back, the black butterflies a very good way, uh, to, to get some of that history. And I think the history's important. And of course, we know that people sometimes are uncomfortable confronting that the past, especially when it's, does not cast us in a great light. But it's necessary, I think, to move forward. But, so we're not gonna dwell on the history so much. I think it, it's gonna be interspersed in the communication, in the discussion, excuse me. But I really wanna focus on a couple of current issues because I know that we are still, as you mentioned, uh, and I mentioned as well, dealing with some of these issues and, and they're a little bit deeper. It's not, not just as, um, not as obvious sometimes I think. So let's actually start with an issue that we're seeing an emerging, or not emerging, but still an issue that's still with us. And that's the issue now that we have Maryland made source of income, a protected class. And so, first of all, give us a little background in terms of the relationship between the federal law and protected classes and state law, and even certain extent local law, and, and then introduce the concept of source of income. And then talk a little bit about that, what kind of questions you're getting about now that source of income is a protected class statewide in Maryland. How are our members dealing with that? Cuz I know you, you're getting a lot of questions about that.
Speaker 2:Right, right. Thanks. I, Chuck, I feel like you were sitting in my Fair housing class that I taught earlier this week,<laugh>, because that's, that was a question that was asked actually. Marilyn Realtors, we have a brochure that it's available on our website. If anybody has taken a fair housing class, they've probably received a copy of it. But we have a map and we show what the protected classes are at the, at the federal level, at the state level, and then in, in, uh, various, uh, jurisdictions within the state. So basically, I think the easiest way to understand it is the federal law. Of course, that's gonna be, that's gonna apply across all of the states, across the entire United States. So any federal protected classes, uh, under the Fair housing laws, those apply in every state, all 50 states. That's sort of the, the floor, right. In addition to those classes, states, states can add additional protected classes. They cannot take away from any of the federal protected classes. So source of income is one of those examples. Maryland added source of income as a protected class. It's not a protected class at the federal level, although there's some discussion yesterday that that may happen at some point. But as of today, that has not happened. But source of, oh, interesting. Income is added at the, at the state level. And some other, uh, protected classes are included at the state level as well. In addition to that, a city or county can, uh, create or, uh, protect, I guess offer additional protected classes. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, so the federal level. Right. Right. And they have, and again, that, that, uh, brochure that we have is a good, uh, good visual for that, if anybody wants to take a look at that. I believe, like for Prince George's County, I think political opinion or political thought is a protected class. And Harford County as well, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, right, right. So there's some unique ones. And again, just as a practice pointer, if you are servicing an area outside of your normal area, you want to definitely be on top of that and take a look and see if the other area, you know, if there are additional protected classes that you're not aware of, and make sure you understand what those classes are and are just, you know, aware of that as you're providing your services. Um, but to your point, Chuck, yeah. Source of income is, uh, a big topic, a hot topic, uh, on the legal hotline. And, and, you know, in teaching classes as well, it became a protected class across the entire state of Maryland in October of 2020. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So why is it a hot topic now?<laugh>, there's kind of, there's been some guidance from the Real Estate Commission that may not have been intuitively clear to people. So the Real Estate Commission did a great job. They created a brochure, uh, talking specifically about source of income. And, you know, we are aware that people maybe didn't understand this. So we've been promoting this and talking this up as well. And we actually did a webinar on it. It will be available on our YouTube channel. You can just see it's gonna be, it's on source of income. But specifically, I think, we'll, we can start with the one that is sort of getting the most discussion right now, is that source of income. In Maryland, the way it's defined, it includes income from a lawful profession, occupation or job. Any government or private assistance grant loan or rental assistance program vouchers, I think we, we can talk about in a second. But the loan is the key that's kind of giving people some concerns or raising questions now. And what that is, uh, there was a presentation, it was Glenora Hughes from the Maryland Commission on Civil Rights. She's our general counsel. She gave very clear guidance on this. That loan includes the loan type, if a buyer's gonna be using F HHA financing or VA financing, and I'm, this is a, a safe space, Chuck, we'll just speak freely,<laugh>, we
Speaker 1:Will. Yes. And
Speaker 2:You, you know, as well as I know that sometimes on the multiple lists, someone will say, in the agent remarks, it may say, no VA buyers, no FHA buyers. Right. And the guidance from the Maryland Commission on Civil Rights, and also now from the Real Estate Commission, is very clear. You cannot say that the loan type is, is considered source of income. You can't discriminate and say no VA buyers, no F H A buyers, no, U S D U S D A, you know, conventional only cash only. All of those are discriminatory. And it's d discrimination on the basis of source of income. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So I think, you know, sometimes I will disclose myself and sh and tell on myself, and this, I, I'll be honest, this was not my first, that wasn't intuitive to me. That didn't occur to me initially. I was just thinking of vouchers, honestly. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's what people think of immediately. They think of vouchers when you say source of income, that's sometimes they think that's all it means. So, right. Yeah. So, thank
Speaker 2:You. Or sometimes people don't even think, well, we can talk about that in a couple minutes,
Speaker 1:<laugh>. Well, we, we get real. That's the real And get real estate. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But source of income. So that was, that's the, the, um, the newest update or the newest interpretation. Make sure everyone understands that, you know, if I'm a listing agent and I'm meeting with my seller to present these offers, you know, it's a great spring market. The sellers received multiple offers. I cannot say to the seller, oh, you don't wanna accept that, that's a VA offer, because that's discrimination. That's, that's illegal in the state of Maryland. So the webinar that we did was hoping to give people a little bit more information and education. We want, you know, if you're a listing agent, you should understand how the VA loans work, how F h A loans work, what, you know, if there are legitimate considerations about property condition. Oh, here's the easy one. A, a condo, an f h a condo, f h a has a list of approved, you know, condo developments. If this condominium is in a development that is not F HHA certified, it's not gonna be eligible for F H A financing. So how would a, a listing agent communicate that? Well, you don't say no f h a buyers, right. Because that's discriminatory. You're, you're excluding a class of buyers, which we don't wanna do. However, you can accurately communicate that information. In the agent remarks, you could say, this condominium is not f h a certified. That's the statement. Right. That's factual. That's true. That's correct. That's not discriminatory. So you're communicating the information in an acceptable way, not in a discriminatory way. Right. And I think that concept is, it sounds like it's a new thing, but it really isn't. I mean, our, our guidance, Chuck, you know this as well. Our guidance has always been, if you're going to describe you, you would describe the property. Right. Not describe the person. Exactly. You know, you wouldn't say, this is not good for families, this is great for family. You just described the property. So that's, it's the same concept here. If there are, you know, you're gonna describe that this property is not, this condo is not in an f h A certified development. That's okay. So, so that's one of the, one of the issues that came up. And I, I think part of the issue is sometimes the, the agents who maybe have done this before they, or been around a little bit, there are some challenges. And, and sometimes a VA appraiser, there may be issues with the condition of the property that may not make it suitable or may not be approved for certain types of financing. So again, that was part of what the, uh, intention was for the webinar that we did. And again, just to keep the focus on, you're gonna describe the property and not say, you know, the people, no buyers, no F HHA buyers, no VA buyers. So, so the listing agents need to be able to explain the, the differences between different offers. And then the client will make their decision buyer's agents again as well. If you're working with a buyer, if you know that your buyer's gonna be using F H A financing, you know, this condo is not f H A certified, then you're not gonna bring your buyer to see that unit. You're gonna bring your buyer someplace else. So really, we're just trying to educate people to understand the concepts. And again, of course, really with the goal of providing, uh, better service to our clients and following the fair housing laws. So,
Speaker 1:Being a little more specific, a seller, and I don't want to put this on listing agents, but by and large sellers are not necessarily gonna know the difference between a conventional and F H A VA U S D A buyer. So they get that information from somewhere. But what are some of the other objections to, let's say VA F H A at my understanding is not very deep. Uh, number one, what are, what are some of the other concerns that sellers may have about these buyers? Number one, and number two, real specific practical guidance for members as far as what their reactions need to be, or how are they gonna interact with their seller to, I guess, describe these different loan options and how to give sellers the information to make reasonable decisions. Right. First start with why, what is the, uh, you mentioned property condition and, and VA inspections are, are they that much more onerous than a regular home inspection? Or is the buyers cannot waive it? Or, you know, what specifically, what are some of the objections to, let's just say va and then if there's f h a not con, what are some of the things that would give us seller slash listing agent pause?
Speaker 2:Right. I think, I think part of it, honestly, Chuck, I think part of it is, I don't wanna say an old wive's tale. Mm-hmm. But part of it is, I think there's just sort of a perception that we'll just stick with va that VA financing is, is difficult. There's challenges. Yeah. You, you don't want to accept an offer using VA financing. And I think, you know, if, if you talk to people that, that really is just a myth or a misperception of, one of the appraisers, I think, was in a class that I taught once, and he pointed out, you know, if the property is fairly new, there probably aren't gonna be any issues. Right. So there's, you know, that, that if there's some concern about the property conditioner, oh my gosh, you sell, or you're gonna have to jump through all these hoops for, uh, you know, VA financing. That's often not the case. It's a misperception based on whatever, some, some myth or just, you know, scuttle butter or whatever you want to call it. So that, so that's part of it. And the another part of it, I think, is a property condition issues. Quite often, if there is an issue with the property condition, this is something that came up during the webinar yesterday, it would also be an issue for conventional financing as well. You know, if there's lead paint<laugh>, that's gonna be a problem no matter what type of financing the buyer's gonna utilize. So I think that is part of it as well, that there's, there's a myth, uh, or a perception that, that these are more, you know, it's more challenging financing or more difficult for the seller, which may not be reality. And I think sometimes this is, we'll say this, try to say this nicely, but I think sometimes there's a, again, a perception that a VA buyer or f h a buyer may not be as qualified. You know, it may be sort of a lower level or lower price point, or, or they may have credit challenges. And so, and something along those lines. And that was another thing that was discussed during the webinar yesterday. That's not always the case either. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, uh, there was a loan officer who participated, and she said she had had multiple transactions recently, over a million dollars, you can use VA financing or f FHA financing. So some of those perceptions that people may have are just not accurate, but there are legitimately some property condition issues where there might be a problem. So I think that's, that's another thing that was discussed. And Cleveland Horton from the Maryland Commission on Civil Rights Escape some guidance on that too. And probably the best recommendation for members would be to seller completes a disclosure form. If they're really, you know, if the roof is leaking or something's going on like that, use the disclosure form and disclose the information. And then a buyer's agent, again, hopefully will understand that there might be challenges, depending on what type of financing they're gonna use. Or talk to a loan officer, see if there's some work around, or they could do a, you know, there's, there's rehab loans. Do you do a 2, 2 0 3 kk, or whatever, and make some improvements to the home. So there are ways to work around it, but I think really our, our focus is on having our members communicate the information accurately and really focusing on the property condition, rather than trying to exclude certain buyers or categories of buyers.
Speaker 1:Were there limits, am I making this up? I have a recollection of limits of seller help in VA loans. Was that a thing? Or did I make that up?
Speaker 2:No, there were, but I think I, I, I'd have, I
Speaker 1:Like percent, I have this vague memory of some limit on the ability of sellers to provide boing help or whatever to buyers, but, okay, nevermind. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm embarrassed myself. That was part of what was discussed yesterday. But I, I think that depends on the loan type. And again, I, I, I'd have to listen to the webinar again, but the loan officer said there are different, depending on different types of financing or different loan programs, sometimes the seller can prepay taxes, can prepay other things. Oh, okay. So there are, it, it really depends on the program, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Good to know. Okay. So the bottom line for members is what, like bottom line this for them as far as loans as part of the protected class of source of income.
Speaker 2:Right. I would say the, the, some of the key things, of course on you, you do not wanna advertise on Bright m l mls or any ads you're placing or any communications you're making. You are not gonna say, you know, conventional only conventional. Right. Conventional or cash only. You're not gonna say no va, no U S D A, no, uh, no fha. Right. That's discriminatory. You're
Speaker 1:Not gonna, and we're seeing that. That's a, that's been, that's a thing. So we gotta, yeah. And, and Bright, how is that getting by Bright? That just occurred to me. Shouldn't we be in touch with them about that?
Speaker 2:Well, I think the
Speaker 1:Issue compliance people, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they do. But I think the issue, and again, if anybody from Bright MLS is, uh, listening to the podcast, they can certainly, certainly like share feedback with us. But I think, Chuck, I think the, the issue is, you know, bright Services, a lot of areas, not just Maryland. Right. And different states define source of income differently, so I'm not sure, you know, I'm not sure that they're gonna change their Oh,
Speaker 1:That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. No. Right, right, right. Yeah. The only other great footprint, right,
Speaker 2:Right. Exactly. Ex I think New Jersey, for example, I think defines it differently. I think they say the income that you use to pay your mortgage, not the type of loan, I believe. So one other thing, just quick, quickly about right, M mls there, apparently when you're putting a listing up, there are fields where you can select that the seller will accept U S D A or the seller will accept F H A. Again, that's gonna be a challenge, an issue here in Maryland, because if you only select conventional cash, then that's discriminatory as well. So the, the guidance that we've been giving people in, in classes and on the, the hotline, if they call, is that they really should not be selecting any of those. They should just leave it open that the seller's willing to accept offers, you know, regardless of the loan type. I think that's the,
Speaker 1:Oh, leave it blank. As opposed to check them all.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay. That's a Okay. Because I would, I would probably say, oh, just check'em all<laugh>. But if you leave him blank, that's the same thing, then a case.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, I think, I mean, and, and honestly, there's some, like a U S D, there's only, there's a geographic footprint for properties that are eligible for U S D A financing, right. So, right. Yeah. I think, I think the better pr, again, anyone from Bright mls feel free to contact us or, or shoot contrary guidance if, if you have any. But, but I, I think the best, the best thing may be just to leave it blank and then just deal with it that way. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's
Speaker 1:What we, what's on a source of income. What anything on any other hot, hot topics, so to speak? Well,
Speaker 2:Core
Speaker 1:Questions, vouchers, I mean, vouchers is always, I think let's touch on that. I mean, we, we talk about this a lot, but quickly, what are best practices? Let's put it that way. Cuz I think we all know what they are and, and et cetera. So, and that's the other thing at Fair Housing, a lot of people think it's just about rentals, you know, and Correct. And it's really not. And that's a, so I think that's a another takeaway here. And that's why I wanted to start with the loans, because, uh, we're talking about in the buying situation. And then, you know, when you go, when you hear ads on, on the radio or tv, it's the last thing they say is, you know, equal housing lender. And so it isn't just rentals and it isn't just about housing vouchers, but let's touch on that. So what are some, yes. The questions you're getting and best practices in dealing with housing vouchers. Yeah,
Speaker 2:That's, that's a hot topic. And, and we just touched on that just for a a a minute, I think during yesterday's webinar, but again, Cleveland Horton who spoke with us, he was, uh, he's the deputy director for the Maryland Commission on Civil Rights. He said, I think he had four complaints that are moving forward this week based on vouchers. And what it's, it's, Chuck, you already know what the problem is,<laugh>, if you're, it's advertising, a lot of times it's advertising. If you're advertising, you're representing a landlord and you're gonna advertise, the unit is available. Oftentimes the advertisement will say, landlord won't accept vouchers. No vouchers accepted property is not part of the program. Um, again, none of those things are permissible. The, it's source of income is a protected class, and that includes people who may be using vouchers to rent a property. Right. So the landlord cannot automatically exclude anyone who's using a voucher. You cannot advertise in any way that implies or infers or states boldly<laugh>, um, that you're not gonna accept anyone with a voucher. Right? So the landlord would have to consider someone who's using a voucher and, you know, can't r reject them automatically. Now, the next question, of course, always comes up, you know, well, what if the landlord has, you know, uh, can the landlord use any kind of criteria to screen the tenants end? Does the landlord have to accept somebody with a voucher? And the answer, of course, is they don't have to accept somebody with a voucher. The landlord is allowed to, you know, screen tenants the way they would screen, they currently screen tenants, right? The landlord can have a minimum credit score. Right. Um, and that could be, you know, someone's applying with a voucher. They, they have to satisfy the, the landlord's minimum credit score. The landlord could have income requirements where you have to, you know, pretty common to say that the, the person has to make three times the required income. You know, with vouchers, the voucher covers a certain portion of the rent, and the applicant or the tenant has to cover a smaller portion. In that situation, they, the landlord could say the applicant has to earn three times. It's gonna be the seller, the applicant's portion of the rent, not the voucher portion. So, but still three times, that's considered a commercially reasonable thing. That's what a lot of landlords do, as long as that is your criteria for every applicant
Speaker 1:That that's important. Right. Ev this is where the equality priest comes in<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Right? Right. Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker 1:Every treat everybody the same. And this context, that's important. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I can share one question that came in on the legal hotline. Actually. It was someone, it was a landlord who had minimum credit score requirement. And an applicant who wanted to rent the place was going to use a voucher and actually satisfied the, the minimum credit score, which I know is often a challenge. Sometimes people are not able to do that. But in this case, the applicant had a good credit score and satisfied the landlord's criteria, and now the landlord thinks they want to do something different with this applicant who's gonna be using a voucher. Now they want to talk to their current landlord and see if the landlord will, would rent to them again. And I asked the member who called in, I said, well, you've, you represent this landlord. Has the landlord done that for other applicants? You've represented this landlord with other investment properties, other rental properties. Have they done that for other applicants? And the answer of course, was no, the landlord had not, it was only for this person who's gonna be using the voucher who happened to have a good credit score. So I can't deny him based on that. Yeah,
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Then so the answer of course is the, you can't do that. Right. If
Speaker 1:The landlord wants, that's a perfect example, actually. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. If the landlord really legitimately wants to check with everyone's current landlord, they certainly can, but that should be their criteria established from day one. So every applicant Right. Right. Right.
Speaker 1:That's why the checklist is so important. Right.
Speaker 2:It really is. That's the best advice for a lot of these things. Use a checklist, use a religiously, don't deviate from it.
Speaker 1:Right, right. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, so let's go back a step. So what if the member, you know, are members taking a rental listing or even a, even a sales listing and the seller or the landlord wants to say something in that listing that the member knows is potentially, or even on its face, a fair housing violation? What does that conversation sound like? You know, you want the business, right? We're in business to make money. I mean, and, and very few of our members are in a position to tell clients, you know, I can't represent you. So what is, what is we're practical advice on how to have that conversation with a seller or landlord as to why this is unacceptable? Because that's probably gonna be an uncomfortable conversation. Do we have any tips for our members in terms of how to deal with that when, uh, you know, and invariably it's gonna come up if you're in the business long enough? So what do we tell people
Speaker 2:That's, that's a, that's a good question. Honestly, I think one of the best things to do, we, we revised our brokerage agreements about, uh, I think it was last year, we revised our brokerage agreements, the listing agreement, the, the buyer tenant representation agreement. There's a fair housing paragraph in each of those documents. Right. And that's kind of, kind of our, one of our suggestions is when you, your first meeting with your client, you know, when you sit down, I'm going on a listing appointment with Chuck, you wanna sell your house? I'm your listing agent. We're gonna meet, we're gonna go through that listing agreement, we're gonna spend some time on that fair housing paragraph. I'm gonna educate you about the fair housing laws. And it's also establishing me as an expert and a person of ethics who will uphold those fair housing laws.<laugh>, you know, my license is dependent on it, right? Oh,
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Says a realtor. Right, right, exactly. Code of ethics.
Speaker 2:Right. Exactly. Yeah. And, and actually just, uh, the reason we modified the paragraphs, we added in, uh, language about love letters too. I wasn't really gonna talk about love letters much, but that's part of it as well. Right. So there's information in there about what a love letter is, you know, that the land, the seller or landlord, I guess, should not be considering, you know, if, if I send a photo to you, you're gonna see me, my husband, my children, the Christmas tree in the background, you know, the photos can take and, and a letter to the same thing. They, they can disclose a lot of information mm-hmm.<affirmative> about someone being in a protected class. And all of that is information the seller shouldn't be considering. Right. You know, so that, that's kind of our, our, one of our guidance is use your, um, your first meeting with your client, you know, discussing your buyer agency agreement, your listing agreement, spend some time on that fair housing paragraph and explain to them. And then if something comes up later, you can refer back. Remember, we discussed fair housing. Right. You may not be aware of this, but this is not permissible, blah, blah, blah. And, and you're absolutely right, Chuck. I know that these conversations occur. I know they're not easy conversations to have, you know, you Right. Don't wanna alienate your client and you Exactly. You know, who wants to lose business? Nobody. Right. You know, but you have to explain that to your client that it's not permissible. You know, you're, and, and we hear this on the hotline, you hear it just from talking to people. Sure. You know, the seller be like, this is my property. I can sell my property. Why can't I sell it to whoever I want to
Speaker 1:<laugh>? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or it's not me, but gosh, my neighbors are gonna be really concerned if I Oh, right. Sell my house to somebody. I have a particular religion that's, we hear on the hotline a lot how concerned the neighbors will be. All of those things. Again, that's discriminatory. So, you know, you, you can't allow your client to do that. There's all kinds of cases. We've heard cases. There was somewhere, uh mm-hmm.<affirmative>, I think the seller found, the seller asked the listing agent, uh, the buyer's last name. The buyer's first name,
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah. So names, yeah. We don't have time for that, but yeah. So,
Speaker 2:But anyway, the bottom line. Yeah. Bottom line is start out on a positive note, we're gonna educate our clients and inform them. If something comes up, you know, circle back to that. Remember we discussed this. Hopefully you can get them to understand that they need to do the right thing. There are people who do not do the right thing, get sued,
Speaker 1:<laugh>. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And that, that is, I mean, narrative, even discussions about, I don't, I know I said we were in off time, but real quick. I mean, sellers cannot make decisions based on, you know, an ethnic sounding name. When the buyer there, there's some proposals to shield the name of the buyer until after there's a contractor's been accepted. That probably isn't gonna work. But there have been, at least anecdotally stories about sellers refusing to sell based on perceptions because of the name of the buyer. Right. And that's clearly and obviously wrong. And I think the same guidance applies there for our members to say, Hey, look, remember, we're all committed to this. You, you can't deny this or, or not accept this offer simply because this name sounds foreign to you or whatever.
Speaker 2:So, right. I'll share one with you. If somebody in a, in a class I taught, uh, this woman, I, I think I was talking about the bi, the buyer's name, and a woman in the class at Kathleen. This is nothing new. This has been going on for years, of course. And she said what she had done once, she had a seller who I think thought the, the buyer was a certain nationality or a certain race based on their name. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And they said, I'm not go, they didn't wanna sign the offer. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna sell to that person. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And the, the listing agent explained to the, the seller that that was not, you know, that was not permissible. It was illegal, it was discriminatory. They could not, they couldn't refuse. The seller said, again, it's my property, I can, I'm gonna sell it to whoever I want to. And the woman said, what she did is she brought her client to the title company. And so tell you what I I, why don't we take a couple minutes, we'll run over to the title company, we'll speak with the attorney there, you can talk to the attorney, and if the attorney agrees with you, then, then you're fine. You know, I'll bring you over to the title company. You can take a couple minutes and just chat with the attorney. So she said she drove her client to the title company. The guy went into the office with the attorney, and she said five minutes later, he came out and said, okay, where do I sign?
Speaker 1:Wow. How cool. Wow. Very creative. I think. Yeah. That's great. So,
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. So that, that was, I think that's a really practical, then pick up the phone, call a title attorney, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 1:There you go. Yeah. So let's switch gears. Surface animals is another hot topic. Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yeah, that's a, that's a perennial hot
Speaker 1:Topic.<laugh>. I think I, yeah. My service iguana, uh, yeah. Thinking on that airplane with me, they, they wouldn't let me on. I don't know why.<laugh><laugh>.
Speaker 2:Well, that's, I mean, that's kind of, I think we, that's, we hear about all these sort of, kind of crazy things on the news, and it just sounds a little, a little ludicrous, but really on that, on the day-to-day, that is probably one of the most common questions on a legal high. Yeah. I, I think I had, I'm not, no exaggeration. I had three calls yesterday involving service animals.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And, and, um, just, just, I can just kind of go through the, the bullet points, I guess. Yeah. What, um, you know, what, what you should know and what you need to know. I, I think the problem for us is that people, when you think of a service animal, we all think about someone who's blind or visually impaired. And the American with Disabilities Act, you know, the animal has to be trained, has to be certified mm-hmm.<affirmative> mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And generally, that's, that's not, that's not true. ADA is a little bit different. I'm not gonna really go into that, but that basically is a dog at your office, at your brokerage, at a movie theater, at a, you know, any at place of public accommodation, they do have to allow someone with a disability to bring their service animal in. That would Right. The easiest one to think of as someone who's blind. Sure. Um, and they have a guide dog, right? Yeah. Under the f h a, uh, the concept of a, uh, a support animal or an assistance animal is much broader than that. It doesn't, it's not
Speaker 1:Limited ada, sorry. I'm sorry. The ada.
Speaker 2:The, the ADA is relatively narrow. The FHA for the Fair Housing Act, the concept of,
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm sorry. Fha. I was back at the FHA financing, I'm sorry. Oh,<laugh>. Okay. No, I apologize. Uh, the Fair Housing Act. Yes. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:And the Fair Housing Act. Yeah. The concept of the assistance animal is much broader.
Speaker 1:Right. Okay. Okay. So everybody needs to understand, that's a very important point that I obviously missed for a second there. That the difference between fair housing discrimination and discrimination based on the Americans with Disabilities Act are very different. Analysis and, what's the word? Requirements
Speaker 2:Of criteria.
Speaker 1:Criteria, thank you. Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. It is. For, under the ada, it's limited to dogs. Well, miniature ponies, but we're not gonna talk about that. But dogs really<laugh>. So the, but the challenge for maybe
Speaker 1:Giraffes, I mean, come on, we can have fun with this.
Speaker 2:No, we cannot,<laugh> don't even wanna go there. Um, but the challenge for our members is that the concept is much broader under the Fair Housing Act. So if, again, this is gonna be, typically if you're representing a landlord, and the landlord has spent a lot of money fixing up their property, the floors are varnished and fabulous and clean, and you could eat off the floors and the, or this beautiful carpeting they've just put in, and the landlord has received an application from a potential tenant who says they have a, uh, they need an emotional support animal. And the landlord is, doesn't wanna accept that person. Oh, I have a no pets policy. And this is, again, another conversation with that might be challenging for our, for our members to talk to the landlord. Basically, the easiest concept to think of is someone who has a legitimate need for an emotional, emotional, supporting animal and assistance animal. They're not pets. So any kind of pet policies cannot be enforced. The landlord can't say, oh, I have a no pet policy. Oh, I require an additional pet deposit. Oh, I only allow pets up to 18 pounds, or whatever it is. None of those things can apply in this situation. So I, I guess you, you go into it, assuming the person who says they need a, an assistance animal, a support animal, you would assume, you know, good faith. Right. You are allowed, the landlord is, if the disability's not obvious, the landlord is allowed to request documentation. Right. That's a legitimate request. There's nothing wrong with that. Nothing improper. Yeah. The landlord can ask for documentation to establish that the person has a disability and a disability related need for the animal. And that's, that's really it. You know, if, if you receive a letter from a, a healthcare provider saying, this person has a disability, a disability related need for a, you know, a, a therapy cat or something, that's really all the landlord is entitled to ask for and review. They're not gonna say, oh, and I need to see six years of your psychiatric records to prove that, or whatever. You know, so, so that's, that's really it. They can ask for a letter and the, the applicant is, uh, supposed to provide a letter from a healthcare provider. You probably know this as well, Chuck. I guess the next question that always comes up, there are websites where someone can go online, you
Speaker 1:Know? Yeah, I was gonna ask about that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. One 800, you know, service dog.com or
Speaker 1:Something, you know,
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Um, and, and there is guidance, some fairly recent guidance from HUD that generally those online certificates are not sufficient on their own to establish the disability and the disability related need for the animal. My, uh, son would say they're, they're a little suss, they're a little suss, as my son would say,
Speaker 1:<laugh><laugh>.
Speaker 2:Because oftentimes the person who's creating that or generating that, it's, it's maybe a healthcare provider in Nevada or wherever outta state. They don't have a personal relationship with the applicant. They don't have a therapeutic relationship with the applicant. So that's the issue there, and that's the challenge there. If someone has more specific questions, they could reach out to the, to the legal hotline. We can provide, you know, guidance, the, the documentation from hud. But that's, that's good guidance and good for people to know that generally that online certificate would not be sufficient. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think the best takeaway there is that you are entitled to see a legitimate, not a diagnosis per se, but something from a healthcare provider certifying the need for the service animal. That's correct. That's the takeaway. Because for a long time this years ago, we were, we were not e we were nervous about even saying that. So I'm glad there's been clarity brought to that. So at least we have some, some way to look behind some of these. Cuz they were proliferating for quite a while, those internet, and they might not have been from a healthcare provider. They could have been just some bogus thing that, you know, you could have just printed on your own. Right.
Speaker 2:I, and again, the, the, the common questions that we get, well, sometimes you, I tell you honestly, a little bit of a red flag when someone says the animal is certified, cuz there is no certification.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.<laugh>,
Speaker 2:There's, there's no central registry, there's no, you know, right. Place to look up whether an animal is certified. So that's a little bit of a red flag. If someone is, you know, trying to prove that they have a disability, they have a, their animal's been certified, the questions that we get typically are, well, what if the animal damages the property? Right. And a again, the the answer there is basically, again, you cannot charge an additional pet deposit, but if the animal does damage the property, you know, beyond normal wear and tear, then the landlord can deduct from the security deposit. If they're, I don't know, they have to repair a wall or replace a carpet or whatever it is, the landlord is allowed to deduct that. It's not, you know, the animal can't just run wild and, and honestly, the animal literally cannot just run wild. If it's a dog, say there's an h o a or whatever, if the dog is getting out, if the dog is barking all night, if the dog is running around and, you know, nipping little children in the neighborhood, then that's not a get outta jail free card that the person has to be able to control their animal. If the animal poses a risk to, to someone's safety or health, then the landlord can legitimately, you know, I would first send a letter asking the person to control their dog. They're not able to do it. Then the landlord could ask them to, you know, they'd have to get rid of their dog or there would be in breach of the lease, you know, the landlord could evict someone. So it's not, it's not an automatic, you know, this person gets away with everything just because they have an animal, you know, they do a still have to fit within the parameters. Let me think. The other ones that come up that are sort of unusual questions. Some counties in Maryland actually have regulations where, you know, an owner, someone cannot own a pit bull. Right?
Speaker 1:Yes. That was a thing for a while. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 2:If, if you have a, a, a letter from your healthcare provider saying that you have a disability and a disability related need for a, a pit bull, then that actually would supersede your county regulations. Remember the fair housing law, these are federal laws. That's right. But that would supersede any county regulations. It would supersede a condo, you know, if your condo says no dogs,
Speaker 1:Right. That's important.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Right. The person, the disability would, would supersede that. So the condo limitations would not apply to someone, again, who can provide documentation, a disability, disability related need for this animal. I think that's about it. Those are some of the most common questions. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Great. So let's, um, wrap up a little bit on appraisal bias. And I, you mentioned earlier, and I wanna caveat start with a caveat that we, we care about this issue as realtors, but it's, and, and we are perfectly ha willing and able and ready to help find solutions to this issue. But it's the appraisal industry's issue at the bus at the end of the day. So as realtors, we, we wanna be sensitive to it and make our members aware of it, and as realtors and the association and the advocacy level are more than happy to help find solutions to these issues that are problematic and high profile stories in the newspapers, et cetera. But this is an appraisal industry<laugh> out of real estate industry who is ultimately responsible for addressing this. So with that caveat, what are some of the recent developments in the appraisal bias area that you can tell our listeners about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think probably the, the one that's probably most high, high profile right now. There was a case that was well publicized right here in Baltimore. It was a couple who owned a property. They purchased it, uh, I think it was in 2017. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, they purchased it for$450,000. They both were professors at Johns Hopkins, both, you know, very prestigious, obviously prestigious university, you know, well, well qualified mm-hmm.<affirmative> and professionals. So they had purchased their home, I think four years later they were gonna try to refi. They spoke with their loan officer and he said, you know, they shouldn't have any difficulty. They live in anybody who's in Baltimore Homeland just been neighborhood in Baltimore. Right.<laugh>, uh, so the, the loan officer<laugh>. Yeah,
Speaker 1:Exactly. Take a drive. Don't worry if you're in there, drive around. It's a gorgeous, but anyway. Yeah, go. Yeah,
Speaker 2:<laugh>. So yeah, the loan officer gave them sort of a
Speaker 1:Ballpark, by the way,
Speaker 2:I have, my son used to go to school over there at elementary school. I drove past that every single day,<laugh>. Um, but anyway, the loan officer had given them and said, you know, you shouldn't have any trouble, you know, getting this refi, even a conservative estimate he gave them, I think was 550,000. Right, right. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So, you know, a refinance, of course you have to get an appraisal. They had an appraisal done, the appraisal came to their home. Again, they're a black couple. They had three kids. They've got, they were home when the appraiser came over. They were family photos, artwork, you know, clearly a, a, you know, black-owned home. Um, and the appraisal came in and the appraisal was 472,000. And their loan officer had conservatively told them that it should appraise for at least five 50. So they were stunned. You know, they lived there for four years and had put in some improvements to the home already. And I think it was only what I just, it was 20, 20,000 more than they paid for it, so mm-hmm.<affirmative>, they were really shocked. I think even I, in the case, I think it referenced even their assessment from the S D A T that was, was redone the same year, and the assessment later on that year came in at 622,000. Wow. So, you know, the number, the conservative estimate from their loan officer was significantly higher. The sds, the assessment was significantly higher. They, you know, thought something was off. Right. And like I said, their, you know, professors at Johns Hopkins, one is a history professor and, you know, familiar with, uh, some of the things you mentioned in your intro, Chuck, familiar with the history of segregation and racism and, and, you know, uh, white supremacy, a lot of the practices that have been in place for a long time. So they were concerned that it, you know, may have had something to do with that. So they enlisted the help of a colleague, uh, a white, uh, I believe it was another professor from Hopkins, I think, who, um, they wanted that person to be present for the second appraisal, just to sort of test their, you know, their professors. Right. They're gonna test their hypothesis. Right. So they had a white professor and they call it white washing the house. Wow. Actually, that's, that's how common this is, unfortunately, that there is actually a term for it. Yeah. Um, where the black homeowner, they removed their personal photos, their family photos, artwork, uh, you know mm-hmm.<affirmative> hair care products. I sometimes say the spices from the cabinet. That's just a joke. I don't mean that<laugh>,
Speaker 1:Um, interesting. Yeah. Right, right.<laugh>.
Speaker 2:But, but really they they do, they did do this. And that's what the, the two professors from Hopkins did, and their white colleague came and, and was at the home when the second appraisal was conducted. I believe that person brought a couple family photos up mm-hmm.<affirmative> and put them up here and there. Oh, okay. And the second appraisal came in at$750,000. Yes. Yeah. That's$278,000 difference between the two. And you know, like I said, they're Hopkins professors. They're, they're one of, there're, I think both of them probably are somewhat experts in this area and well familiar with the history of, of this type of problem we've had. So they retained a lawyer and they have filed a lawsuit. The most recent update on the lawsuit there was, I think it was last week, I believe, you know, it's, it's, it's ongoing. It's in the Yes, uh, US district court here in Maryland. So it's, it's, it's pending litigation. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, there was, uh, the Department of Justice filed a, uh, pleading in the case, I think it was last week, just, uh, uh, to provide a, some additional guidance. I guess the, the plaintiffs had sued, uh, it was two, Dr. Conley, Dr. Ma, they sued the appraiser and the lender mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and I think the lender had responded basically saying, you know, Hey, it wasn't us. It's that darn appraiser,<laugh>, you know? Right, right. And, and the guidance from the department of just Justice, they just gave some clarification that basically a lender can't just rely on that the lender has responsibility for the appraisals. You know, they're hiring contractors to perform these appraisals. The lender does have responsibility, and if they knew or should have known, then the lender could be responsible as well. So it's pending litigation. I mean, it's, it hasn't been, it hasn't gone to a jury. The pleadings are, you know, they're just working their way through the process, so you can't really draw any conclusions yet. It is, it's a high profile case and it's something that everybody should be aware of.
Speaker 1:And I, I think in fairness, we have to say that the appraiser, the first appraiser that is who is being sued, he's the defendant in that case, because it be, was so high profile and, and there was a lot of press, negative press directed toward him that he is counters suing for defamation. Right, right. Because his business has been decimated. And, and to be asked with you, I mean, just in objectively speaking, there were some inflammatory things said, whether they're right or not, or whether they were justified or not, remains to be seen. Because obviously we don't know everything. But there is another side as, as that, you know, to, to as with all stories. And he is counters sewing for defamation, so Right. You know, that, that I think for completeness should be said. But Right. Bottom line here is the appraisal industry and they are making, uh, they are as a, as an industry, as a profession, are acknowledging some of the shortcomings, the lack of diversity in, in, within the ranks of appraisers. There are some barriers to entry to be a full-time appraiser, including a certain amount of work and, and app apprenticing. And so they are looking at things. Is that right? To your knowledge of some alternative ways of becoming a fully licensed appraiser so that, because some of the opportunities aren't there for, for a lot of people, it's been a somewhat closed industry and so they are looking at ways to open the ranks and we need more appraisers. A lot of'em are retiring and they're, that's not filling their ranks. That's part of the problem from what I understand, that we need more appraisers and we have to be sensitive to the ability of a diverse group of people to be able to become appraisers. Is that fair?
Speaker 2:Right. Yeah, that's true. Actually, just briefly, I was gonna say back to the, uh, the appraiser, um, counter suing. I just looked this morning just to check the pleadings and see if anything had been filed. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and the plaintiffs has responded to that. And of course they're defending that vigorous.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay. Okay. So they responded to the counterclaim. Okay. Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And they've, they, you know, we'll see the litigation has to play out, but
Speaker 1:They, they, yeah. Again, again, they, they tell their story and he, you know, everybody tells their stories and Right. Whatever chips fall where they may, but Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And, but you're right though it's not, again, it's, this is kind of what we were sort of talking about at the beginning within our realtor world, you know, sometimes the, there's, there are two sort of types of, of problems we're dealing with. One is like, you know, an individual person who may be discriminating or discriminatory. And then the other one is sort of, you know, the system and how things are set up and how things have been done historically. And, and to your point, Chuck, I think the appraisal, the appraisal industry and appraisers for years that has been white male dominated. I ca yeah. I don't remember the exact number, but the vast, some incredibly high percentage. I think 90% of appraisers are white men over the age of whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, to, so does that play into it? It, it might, you know, not saying it's intentional, it might just, you know, people are trained in, in a certain way. The, the beliefs that, that go into, you know, how they were taught, you know, what constitutes an appraisal, what factors you consider, what comps you pull, all of those things. If they're based on a, you know, a discriminatory belief or an old school or whatever you wanna call it, um, then everyone who came up through that process might have that implicit bias as, as, you know, part of how they're, how they're, you know, basing their appraisals or creating their appraisals. So, so that is part of the issue. And you're right, I think there's a couple things that the appraisal industry is looking at. Um, I think one of them is a different way to, for people to be a different path to becoming an appraiser. Exactly. Um, yeah, typically it's been, uh, there's a, there's a, a, you know, certain number of classes that are required mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and then a lengthy apprenticeship program where someone works one-on-one with a current appraiser, sort of to get up to speed and get trained. And again, that tends to be, I think that's problematic. It might be a, a father and a son or someone like that, or tends to be people, older white men tend to, you know, know groups of other white men. And that might be a little bit of the barrier there. So, yeah. Um, there's another path I think that peop the, uh, appraisal industry is sort of looking at to increase the diversity of their community, of the appraisal appraisal community. So I think that's half, that's something I think it's being discussed at the national level, I believe with the
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is. Yeah. The PR institute and all. And so there's plenty of resources out there, but the bottom line is this is all fair housing. Right. Because it is, again, it's not just real estate brokerage, it's not just rentals and it's not just housing vouchers.<laugh>, I guess, you know, the, the, the biggest takeaway here is that it's a, it really covers a lot of territory and, you know, we have to be prepared. And the best offense is a good defense, I guess, you know? And so we really do wanna arm our members with very practical tips. And I hope we, we covered a lot of those today. So, um, final thoughts
Speaker 2:Actually, I just was gonna say, I, not to add, we don't wanna, we don't wanna end on a, a download or negative note.
Speaker 1:I was gonna No, thank. Yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah. So I
Speaker 2:Was just gonna say<laugh>. Cause it's not, I mean, it's
Speaker 1:Not negative.
Speaker 2:I, I don't see Fair. It's not negative at all. I mean, things have happened in the past. Right. We can talk about that. We can acknowledge that. Yeah. And we can take steps to move forward and move past that. You know, I was just gonna say, I know that, you know, n ar has some tremendous resources available. One thing that I was gonna suggest, you know, maybe everybody do something for Fair Housing Month. Right. And ar one thing they had, they had a Fair Housing challenge, which, you know, we can just talk about that briefly. Sure. Um, that was, there were, I believe there were three components to that. One, they were asking people to watch the, uh, implicit bias video, which is one hour long. It's very good. You're, yeah, you're an office manager, you're a broker. You want tell your people to do it during their, their April sales meetings. There you go. Right, right. Fairhaven is another, it's an interactive, I don't know, I don't know, game simulation,
Speaker 1:I
Speaker 2:Guess. Simulation. Yeah, simulation where you walk through. It's as if you're the agent and you're working with a, a potential buyer, potential seller, and it gives you choices and you make a choice. I would select a and they'll tell you, you're right or you're wrong. And it kind of walks you through why this was correct, why it was incorrect. Yeah. And again, it's fair housing training on a, a more engaging,
Speaker 1:I got a couple things wrong. I'd be,
Speaker 2:I did too. It told
Speaker 1:Me a while to finish Fairhaven. I'd be honest, it's, I did too. Some things are not as obvious as you might think they are, even if you think you know this stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly. You have to think a little bit. But it, but it, it's, it doesn't take, that doesn't take that long either. And then the last one for the Fair Housing Challenge was, uh, encouraging people to take at home with diversity. Exactly. Um, that's an, an n a r class. It's, it's six hours total. Some places do it all in one day. Some people do it in, you know, two, three hour sessions. But that's the N Na R Fair Housing Challenge. I, I've done it. Um, I would encourage, encourage everybody else to do it. And the other thing, the only other thing I was gonna throw out there, Chuck, if you have others, certainly add them. But, um, N na r has some recommendations. If you just go to Na r's website, if you Google even, um, n a r, it's Fair Housing book recommendations. And they've got a list of some great books, actually one of Color of Law, we've already mentioned Color of Law, but, um, that's great. A couple of the other ones, there's information here on Sun Downtowns. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> Family Properties. I happen to hear that woman speak in, in Orlando last fall, I think it was. She's from Chicago originally. Um, and it was, it's called Race Real Estate in the Exploitation of Black Urban America. Huh. Um, land Stroman Con. I'm not familiar with that. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a very good book. But anyway, so the list here, N nar has a list, a list of great books. And I know that not everyone is a reader. Uh, some of us like videos are like audio, A lot of these books, there's a link underneath where the author was interviewed. Some of them were on C cspan, where the author spoke about the book for an hour. So if you are not a reader, if you prefer videos or, or listening to, you know, audio books, uh, still check out the site. It'll give you information about the book. It'll give you information about, you know, an interview or, uh, something that you could listen to or watch rather than, uh, reading the book if you're not inclined to do so.
Speaker 1:Cool. Well, that was great. Thank you very much, Kathleen. Hopefully that's a good kickoff to Fair Housing Month. So thanks again for coming.
Speaker 2:Yep. Thanks for having me. It was, it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And, uh, to our listeners, thank you for the privilege of your time. This is Get Real Estate, the Maryland Realtors podcast. Again, I'm Chuck Caskey, Maryland Realtors, c e o. Thanks as always. To our esteemed producer, Joshua Woodson, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Like us, share us, give us five stars if we've earned them, but most importantly, give us feedback, including guests you'd like us to invite or topics to explore. So, be kind, stay safe. And I wanna leave you today with a Haitian proverb about the nature of struggle. Something the Haitian people know a lot about, but also about being prepared for the inevitable. And it's very simple. Beyond the mountain,
Speaker 3:There are mountains.