Whether you're already an established fan of the Enneagram or you're saying, "Ennea-what?" this episode is for you. Joining the conversation with Bethany and Trisha today is writer and speaker Jill McCormick who brings her divinely-inspired perspective, insight, and commentary of others to shed light on this popular personality tool.
Whether you're already an established fan of the Enneagram or you're saying, "Ennea-what?" this episode is for you. Joining the conversation with Bethany and Trisha today is writer and speaker Jill McCormick who brings her divinely-inspired perspective, insight, and commentary of others to shed light on this popular personality tool.
Trisha Priebe 0:07
Hey, Friend! Welcome to episode #18 of the Laundry List Podcast. My name is Trisha Priebe, and I'm here as usual with my good friend and co-host Bethany Hager. And today we're excited to have a guest join us here on the podcast. Bethany and I are excited to introduce you to the one and only Jill McCormick. Now, you know that typically, this is the podcast for list junkies, where we talk about everything from the important to the mundane and everything in between—so basically, we talk about all the things—and we do it by presenting you with a list. Today, however, we're not bringing you a list, we'll get back to list-making next week. Today we've got a different topic for you, and one that we're excited to dig into. So let's go ahead and get started.
Hey, this is Trisha from the future popping in to tell you what you can expect in this episode. Initially, when Bethany and I invited Jill onto the episode, our plan was to spend—you know—10 or 20 minutes talking about the Enneagram. (Maybe you've heard about it? It's the categorization tool that classifies human personality into typology. There are about nine, I believe, interconnected personality types.) And today we're going to talk about that because Jill is especially proficient in it. She's done writing on it, she studied it, and she loves it. And then we were going to do a list. We WERE going to talk about 5 parenting hacks. Well, the conversation you're about to hear was so enjoyable, that both Bethany and I felt like we didn't want to cut anything from the Enneagram portion of the discussion. So we've now created two different episodes. There will be this episode today, where we just talk about the Enneagram. And then next week, we are going to have Part 2 of our conversation with Jill, in which we do go over those lists of parenting hacks. So, for your enjoyment, we are giving you the entire discussion about the Enneagram. Here it is.
Jill, we are so excited that you are here with us today. Bringing you on, by the way, was Bethany's idea, and she has set the bar very high in terms of what I can expect from our discussion with you. So with that extra unintentional pressure [laughter], I'm wondering if you would introduce yourself, tell us about who you are, what you do, what you love, all the things.
Jill McCormick 2:30
So I'm Jill. I am a follower of Jesus. I am the wife to Ryan, I'm a mom to two girls, I also own a Vizsla puppy, which takes an extraordinary amount of time and effort because she's very high maintenance, but we love her so much. In my free time I work at our church as the Communications Director. And I also have a side hustle editing business. So I edit manuscripts and book proposals for people, and words just make my heart so, SO incredibly happy. And I typically start and end my day with sprinkles. I eat oatmeal every morning. I love sprinkles on the oatmeal. I love sprinkles on my ice cream. I eat ice cream every night, and it has sprinkles.
Bethany Hager 3:18
So you put candy sprinkles on your oatmeal?
Jill McCormick 3:21
Yes, I call it "birthday cake oatmeal."
Trisha Priebe 3:23
I genuinely feel like anything else we need to know about you is secondary to that. And I feel like my life is incredibly boring by comparison. I can't even remember the last time I've had sprinkles in my life.
Jill McCormick 3:36
I think we all need more sprinkles, especially in today's climate. Let's just sprinkle as much sprinkle-ege as we can.
Bethany Hager 3:43
Yes.
Trisha Priebe 3:43
Well, I'm glad we're in agreement about the important issues for sure.
Bethany Hager 3:47
I love that we went to the identity place because how Jill and I met was—I found your blog, I think—first of all, and I loved your writing tone. So I'm curious to know if you went to writing first or speaking first or the editing first. I'd like you to talk about that.
Jill McCormick 4:04
Yes.
Bethany Hager 4:04
Then Jill came and spoke to our moms group here in Illinois for the pregnancy center that I work with. And Jill, when you shared your story with those moms. I could sense in the room the spirit that came in. As they saw you walk in, they knew that you were a friendly face and going to bring them a good word that night. But then you opened up with your personal story of motherhood and you could feel it in the room—their hearts opening up to you—and it was like this lady gets us, and it all went back to identity and a lot of what these ladies are struggling with when they come to us and are making a decision about pregnancy or even throughout the pregnancy and raising their babies. We do a lot of talking about who you are is who you were created to be and you are exactly the mother you need to be for your children. God doesn't make a mistake in giving your children the mother He gave them. And when we get that piece of our identity certain, so much else of life can be solved and flow out of that. And really your power comes from that. So I love that we went there. I love the work that you do. Really gets people thinking about their identity, and being happy with being who they are. But yeah, I'm curious, I'd like to hear from you about the the kind of path—writing/speaking first, editing first? How did that come about?
Jill McCormick 5:35
Let me first just say that if there was any good that came out of that talk, it was all Jesus, because He is so good. He is just so good. And He shows up exactly when and where He needs to show up. And so I think, to speak first to that identity piece really quickly, I think it's so important for every one of us to understand that we were created by God, with our personality type, by design for a specific purpose. So we can be the person God created us to be, and so we can do the good work God created us to do. And so what I have learned about my identity over the years and struggling with it, is that there's only one piece of my identity—and that is beloved daughter of the King of Kings.
Trisha Priebe 6:23
Yes.
Jill McCormick 6:24
That's it. That's my entire identity. I am a follower of Jesus, beloved, sweet girl of His. And I think everything else is a role or responsibility or hat that we wear. So I'm a wife, I'm a mom, I'm an employee, I'm a podcaster, I'm a speaker. But that's not who I am. Those are the things I do. And the areas God has given me to steward well.
Trisha Priebe 6:52
That's right.
Jill McCormick 6:52
I am a mom, but I'm not a mom, if that makes sense. Like my identity is not in any way tied to my motherhood. My identity is solidly, firmly rooted and planted in the love of Jesus Christ. So I said that would be quick. That was not quick. [Laughter] But to answer your original question—which was what came first, the chicken or the egg, it was writing. So writing came first. And the reason for that is because my dream was to become a speaker to speak to groups like your moms group—like that is where I feel most fully myself—where I feel like Jesus in me is when I speak about Him. But I knew I could not go to a MOPS group or a church or to the conference planning committee and say, "Hey, I'm Jill. Come have me speak!" Because they would be like, "Who are you? What are you going to tell our women? What are you about?" Like, there would have to be some sort of online hub that I could direct them back to so they can see I'm not a crazy person. I'm here. Here's my statement of faith. This is what I believe. This is what I can talk about.
Bethany Hager 6:52
Right.
Jill McCormick 8:01
And I didn't know it at the time, because, you know, Jesus reveals just what our next step is sometimes, but I didn't know how much I needed to write to work out my own faith. Paul calls us to work out our salvation. And so for me that comes through writing. Like I'll think in my head—A, B, and C—and then I write it and I say, "Do I really believe A, B, and C? Or have I just been told A, B, or C?" And so writing helps me process. And I know some of us are verbal processors. Some of us are written processors. Some of us are thinking processors. We all have our own style. Not one is better than the other. But for me, it was really, I needed it for myself to work out what I believe. And then Jesus used that to help people like Bethany find me. So then I can go talk to women about Jesus and who they are and how motherhood is so hard, but God is with us in it.
Bethany Hager 9:00
Yes, amen. Oh, that's perfect.
Trisha Priebe 9:02
I love that Jill. And I want to circle back very quickly to something that you said very well. I want to draw a little more attention to it. And that is this issue of identity. You talked clearly about how we are first and foremost a child of God. And then of course, we have these wonderful roles that we've been given to steward—such as mom, or wife, or sister or friend—or whatever roles God has given you.
Jill McCormick 9:26
Yes.
Trisha Priebe 9:26
And I love the fact that you distinguish those, because—and I think this is why it's so important—when we confuse roles with identity, what happens is, we've all known people who have tragically lost part of their role, right? If they've lost a child or they've lost a husband or they've gone through a horrific relationship breakdown, and then we kind of see—even maybe in our own lives, I know for myself—I start to spin out a little bit if there's something I've placed too much of my identity in and then I've lost It, suddenly I have to figure out who I am again.
Jill McCormick 10:03
Yes.
Trisha Priebe 10:03
And what you're saying and why this gives us tremendous hope and security is because if we are a child of God, nothing, absolutely nothing, can change our identity. And that is so secure, isn't it?
Jill McCormick 10:16
Yes!
Trisha Priebe 10:17
It's so wonderful to know that even if I lose these other very important, very cherished roles in my life, I am still who I am and who God says I am because I am primarily a child of God. So I love that you said that. Thank you.
Jill McCormick 10:31
Absolutely, yes.
Bethany Hager 10:32
Trisha, when we did our book list a few weeks ago on the podcast, one of the books that I had on my list was to read Paula Faris's book "Called Out." And it speaks to exactly this. And I've finished that book now. I underlined so much of it—where she just walks people through—separating out what you work at is not who you are. Your career is not who you are. And you may be called to do amazing things in a career somewhere—hers was National Broadcasting.
Jill McCormick 11:04
Sure.
Bethany Hager 11:04
So you may end up doing great things in that, but never lose sight of the basic first calling you have as a child of God.
Trisha Priebe 11:12
Yep, you're absolutely right, Bethany. And that actually leads very well into our main topic for the day, in which today we are discussing the Enneagram. Now I know I am probably one of the last people in America to be discussing this on a podcast. I feel like every other podcast I've listened to—at some point—has touched on the Enneagram. I don't know if this is good or bad, but I tend to be a little wary of things everybody's talking about or books everybody's reading or songs everybody's listening to. And so my initial reaction to the Enneagram is, "Oh, I can't talk about it, because everybody's talking about it." But I'm actually kind of coming around, and I'm trying to learn a little bit more about it. And so I'm wondering, Jill, if you would just start—because you love the Enneagram and you know lots about it—I'm wondering if you could give people like me (maybe I'm the only one but if there is anyone else listening who doesn't know it as well) if you would just give us a little overview about what it is.
Jill McCormick 12:13
Yes! I joke with my husband, Ryan, that the Enneagram is my love language, and God love him, when he sits on the couch and hears me talk about, "Well, Enneagram Ones blah, blah, blah," he's like, "Oh, my goodness. I have no idea what you're talking about."
Bethany Hager 12:25
[Laughter]
Jill McCormick 12:25
So the Enneagram. So let's talk about what it is, what it isn't, and why it's important to your spiritual growth.
Trisha Priebe 12:33
Okay.
Jill McCormick 12:34
So the Enneagram at its most basic, is an ancient personality typing tool that says there are nine different lenses through which we see the world. At a more complex level, it gives us language and words to what's rumbling around in our hearts. And I love the Enneagram for two reasons, well, three, but three will lead into the spiritual growth part. But one is that it speaks to our motivation. So it doesn't speak to outward behavior, it speaks to motivation. And it gives language to people to say, "Oh, this is why I do what I do. Oh, this is why I react the way I react. Oh, this is why this person drives me nuts." And so it really does help us give language to what's rumbling around in our hearts. So going back to the motivation piece. So there are so many awesome personality typing tools in the world. I've loved since I was a little girl taking Teen Magazine quizzes and Cosmopolitan quizzes. I just love personality stuff and learning how we're wired.
Trisha Priebe 13:45
Sure!
Jill McCormick 13:45
And so when I came across the Enneagram, I was like, "Oh, cool!" But then I realized, "Oh, this is all about motivation." So for example, all three of us—this is purely hypothetical—all three of us could keep a really clean house.
Trisha Priebe 13:59
And that went to hypothetical really fast! [Laughter]
Jill McCormick 14:01
[Laughter] So a Type One—or the Reformer—I know we're all laughing because you should see my house right now.
Trisha Priebe 14:07
Nah!
Jill McCormick 14:08
Type One, the Reformer, might keep a clean house because that's the right thing to do. We want our house to look perfect. Good housekeepers keep clean houses. So they will keep a clean house because they're motivated by rightness and perfection. A Type Three—which is my type—is the Achiever. We might keep a clean house because we really care what people think about us and we want people to be impressed by us. So they come over to our house and it looks spic-and-span-model-home clean, and we feel better about ourselves. A Type Nine might keep a clean house. The Type Nine is a peacemaker—okay—might keep a clean house because visual clutter feels like internal chaos to them. And so to keep peace in their home, it's important to a Nine to have a clutter-free, clean space. So all three of us could have the exact same outcome of a clean house, but there are three different motivations for why we keep a clean house.
Trisha Priebe 15:08
Huh!
Jill McCormick 15:08
So I think that's what is so critical and so different about the Enneagram is it speaks to our motivations. What the enneagram is not—it is not who you are. So I say I'm an Enneagram Three, but we know because we just heard me say that I'm a daughter of God, right? So that's my number one identity, I am not my personality type, I am not the sum total of my fears, my sins, my worries, my strengths. That's not who I am. That's just a label. That's a shortcut language to say how I process and see the world. So the Enneagram is not who you are.
Bethany Hager 15:48
Yes.
Jill McCormick 15:49
It's not a tool to be used to wield against other people. It's also not a tool to justify bad behavior.
Trisha Priebe 15:57
Yes.
Jill McCormick 15:58
Like, I can't say as a Three, well, efficiency and effectiveness and getting the task done is just who I am. So your tears, sweet little daughter, just have to wait because I hate interruptions. So it's not an excuse for me to not grow. Like I know, in a recent podcast, you all talk about agency and feeling like we can't change, right? It's not like, well, I'm just stuck where I am, because I'm a Three, and I just can't do anything about it. It's not what the Enneagram is. And the Enneagram is not the Holy Spirit.
Trisha Priebe 16:30
Right.
Jill McCormick 16:31
So it can lead to transformation, it can illuminate dark areas that you've hidden away from your own self, and it can help you bring sins to Jesus. But it is not the Holy Spirit. This is just a tool that I believe God shed His wisdom on humans who created this system. And so it's not the Holy Spirit. It's simply a tool.
Trisha Priebe 16:56
Great introduction!
Jill McCormick 16:57
And I think in terms of spiritual growth, I think the Enneagram is so critical to help people grow spiritually, because I like to think of us as onions. Like, you know, there's a little onion inside of us. So there's a center, if we split an onion in half, we can see there's a center inside, but an onion has all these different layers around it. And the Enneagram helps us shed light on what those layers are. So a layer could be a wound that we sustained in childhood with a parent who was mean or dismissive or neglectful or unkind. Or, we have a teacher who cut us down and belittled us in class. It could be anything. So there's some wound, and that's covering up the real us because we know to survive in this life, I need to toughen up. So I'm going to take that wound and help build a little case around myself.
Trisha Priebe 17:00
Hmm.
Jill McCormick 17:00
So that could be a wound or a sin behavior, like a Type Three, I'll throw my type under the bus. We are very much concerned about how we look and impressing other people. And so we have this I-want-to-look-awesome-all-the-time shell around us. So people can't see the real us because we're so preoccupied with looking good. We don't want to let anybody in. So we have all these layers, and I believe the Enneagram gives us language and helps us see what those layers are. So then we can take those layers to Jesus and say, "God, I care more about what other people think than I care about what You think about me. Will You show me what is true?" Or, "I remember this wound from my childhood and somebody said something mean, and it's stuck in my soul for 30 years. Can You free me from this?" And so it's taking those wounds and like Hebrews 12:2, we take the wounds that entangle us and the sins that are trapping us, and we get rid of all that junk. So we can run the race before us while locking eyes with Jesus. And He gets to heal the wounds and the hurts and He gets to say, "Sin is not My plan for you. Let's move over here." And I think that's what the Enneagram does.
Trisha Priebe 19:04
That's a great explanation. I think any classification tool that helps us better identify our strengths and our weaknesses, when used in moderation with all of the caveats that you so clearly shared, is worth considering. And obviously, exactly what you're saying, we go to the Word of God to really find and be convicted of those things in our lives that need to change, but sometimes we don't even see the things in our personality that may be causing the pitfalls or may be causing the hurdles. So I appreciate that. I think that makes a lot of sense. Okay. I am going to ask you a question now. And it does kind of change gears a little bit. But it's a question that I've had about the Enneagram that I've wanted to ask somebody, and I finally have someone I can ask.
Bethany Hager 19:50
[Laughter]
Trisha Priebe 19:50
So when I finally did take the Enneagram assessment—roughly 50 years after everybody I know took it—I got so excited because, of course, it nailed my personality— the good parts, the bad parts, all the parts. And just like we do when we're excited about something we've discovered, I turned around and sent the link out to all my friends, "You've got to try this, guys! I finally know what's wrong with me!" And a couple of my well-meaning friends—and please, Friend, if this is you listening, I am not saying this with any criticism or judgment. I think it's a perfectly valid response—but a couple of my friends wrote back and said, "Are you aware that this Enneagram assessment has its roots in mysticism?" And, of course, I didn't have any idea about that. It just seemed like a simple personality test, just like you'd take the Myers-Briggs or any of those other assessments. And so I know that there are some Christians, as I've done some research, who have expressed concern about the Enneagram. What are your thoughts on that?
Jill McCormick 20:52
I am so glad that you brought that up. Because I do think there is a movement—not movement, but maybe thoughts among Christians—who say, we don't know the roots, is this something we should be doing? The symbol looks like a pentagram, like, we are not on board with this at all. So let's bring out the elephant and talk about it.
Bethany Hager 21:18
Yeah.
Jill McCormick 21:19
So this is my thought—all wisdom, all insight, all goodness comes from God. If God chose to share with people, "Hey, this is how I wired y'all. This will help you." I believe that is from God. Does God only download wisdom to people who follow Him? No. Like, we can look at the scientific community. There are scientists who are atheist, scientists who are agnostic, scientists who don't follow Jesus. And they have made incredible discoveries about God's creation, about nature, about our ecosystem, about our bodies. So I don't believe God only downloads information to people who follow Him step by step. I believe God is God. His ways are not my ways, His thoughts are higher than my thoughts, and He's going to get the information to the people He wants to get it to.
Bethany Hager 22:09
Oh my word. I love that you said that. I love it. Because Trisha, do you remember the college professor we had who stunned everybody with the line, "All truth is God's truth"?
Trisha Priebe 22:18
Yep.
Bethany Hager 22:19
And we had a very conservative college class, and so he gets up in our ethics class and says, "Guys, I just want you to know, all truth is God's truth." And you could have heard the class gasp. How could this be? But you know, along the same lines, we need to be aware that God can give wisdom and truth to whomever He intends to reveal it to. And it's a good thing You don't have to be in lockstep with Him every minute to be worthy of it, because that would lock all of us out of it, too.
Trisha Priebe 22:47
Yep.
Bethany Hager 22:47
So to say that He can only reveal truth to certain people is going to mean at some point, that the truth you think you have you didn't get from God because you have messed up in your life. Okay. And that's my soapbox for the moment.
Trisha Priebe 23:01
I love it.
Jill McCormick 23:02
The second thing I would say about those Christians who are concerned about the Enneagram, or have just heard about it and are unsure if they should delve into it, and are concerned about the roots—I think there are so many different stories about how the Enneagram got started that I'm like, that's above my pay grade. I just know what I know about Jesus. But I would say that regardless of the roots, we know that this wisdom comes from God, and anything can be perverted and twisted into a negative fashion. For example, the Internet can be used like we're using the Internet right now—to record a podcast that glorifies God.
Trisha Priebe 23:45
Yes.
Jill McCormick 23:46
We're using it to shine a light back on how amazing He is. We can use Facebook to share Scripture. We can use Instagram to ask for prayer. So the the Internet is good in that way. The Internet is also terrible.
Trisha Priebe 23:59
Absolutely.
Jill McCormick 24:00
Because it's a way inappropriate images and people are trafficked. And you don't need me to list out for you all the negative things that are on the Internet. There's cyberbullying. I mean, there's a lot of stuff.
Trisha Priebe 24:10
Yep.
Jill McCormick 24:11
The Internet is neutral. The Internet can be used for good and the Internet can be used for evil. And so I think the Enneagram is the same way. We can use it to help us learn about ourselves—not because we're interested in navel gazing—but because we're interested in living in freedom. And the more we can identify our wounds and our struggles, the more we get to talk to Jesus about it. So I think the Enneagram is good in that way. Could I also turn it into an all-about-me-all-the-time, weaponized tool to bash others? Absolutely. Of course I could. So I think the Enneagram and the Internet, and our phones—a whole bunch of this stuff we have today—is neutral. It's how do we use it and look, let me say this. There are two books written by two Christian authors. I'm sure you can link to this in the show notes, but written by Christians who talk about the Enneagram. One is, "Self to Lose, Self to Find" by Marilyn Vancil. And the other is, "Becoming Your True You" by Heath Davis Havlick.
Trisha Priebe 25:20
Okay.
Jill McCormick 25:21
And both of those books take a Christian viewpoint of the Enneagram. So if those tools would be helpful—
Trisha Priebe 25:29
Then someday when Jill's book comes out, we'll add that to the list. How about that?
Jill McCormick 25:33
[Laughter] Oh, and there's also "Becoming Us" by Beth and Jeff McCord, which is how the Gospel intersects with the Enneagram and marriage relationships. So if you're unsure about the Enneagram, I would start with Marilyn's book. It's a great beginning primer, and it's written from a Christian perspective.
Trisha Priebe 25:52
That's great, Jill, you're talking to two reading fiends. So we will look those books up. I appreciate you giving us three specific titles. That's amazing. And I guess the next question on our list, and maybe even on our listener's mind is how do we go about determining our Enneagram type?
Jill McCormick 26:10
Yes, so I've had so many friends who say, "I am all the types! I took a test. And it came back with 97 numbers and they are only nine on the Enneagram. And I don't even know how that's possible, but I don't know what I am!"
Trisha Priebe 26:23
[Laughter]
Jill McCormick 26:24
So this is what I would say. Tests are great, but they're not the best tool to help you figure out your type.
Trisha Priebe 26:31
Okay.
Jill McCormick 26:32
So I would recommend starting with what I call "primers." A primer book, like for example, Marilyn Vancil's "Self to Lose, Self to Find," or "The Road Back to You" by Ian Morgan Cron and Suzanne Stabile. And they outline chapter by chapter—each type has its own chapter—about the motivations, the fears, and the lies that each type believes.
Trisha Priebe 26:58
Hmm.
Jill McCormick 26:59
And so I would start by reading the book.
Trisha Priebe 27:01
Okay.
Jill McCormick 27:02
And maybe picking out like, "I think I'm an Eight, a Five, and a Six. I'm going to read those three chapters first." And then also, when you read them, think about what they're saying through the lens of your mid-20s. Because by your mid-to-late 20s, your brain is fully developed. And you also have a lot less baggage or mileage than you do in your 30s, 40s, 50s.
Trisha Priebe 27:28
I need you to understand if you're asking me to refer to my 20s, at this point, that occurred somewhere near the Fall of the Roman Empire,
Jill McCormick 27:35
[Laughter] Think back to your post-college, first-job self, and through that lens—not through you today, assuming you're not like 25—if you're older than 25, think back to your mid-20s. And then think about yourself through that lens.
Bethany Hager 27:51
I get a different number every time I take a test. It's given me a different number. And not even just—oh, it could be over here or a similar type would be this one. They are vastly different. And I think what it is, Jill, it goes back to what lens you picture yourself as you're answering the questions, because I can tell when I'm answering those questions that I'm asking, "Do I answer it as I sit here today? Or do I answer it as I would have taken that situation and dealt with it when I was in college? Or do I answer this question as I would have as a young mom? Or do I answer this question as I would strictly in my career as a lawyer? Or do I answer the question as if I was sitting in church?" And there have been times it really stumped me. Who am I answering this question as? And I think that's why it's given me such different results each time.
Jill McCormick 28:45
Oh, I think that's so accurate, because like we talked about earlier, we all have different roles and responsibilities. So if I took it as career Jill, I might have one answer. But if I took it as friends-on-girls-weekend, Jill, it's going to be very different. So I think you do have to think about yourself as much as we can in a holistic sense in our mid-20s. And also, always, always, always going back to the motivation, you know—an Eight is going to be motivated by power and control. Is that really my motivation? Or is it as a Five who is very much concerned about being perceived as incompetent?—So they want to take in as much information as they can to avoid looking like an idiot. And so you just have to think—when I was in my mid-20s, what really lit the fire under me? Was it that I was scared of being out of control? Was I scared of not knowing the right answer? Was I scared of all the threats in the world that could go wrong? So I think it's a matter of researching. So if you've taken multiple tests, Bethany, and you come back with a different answer every time, I would recommend the Ian Cron or Marilyn Vancil books and just digging in and and talking to Jesus about it as you read. Like, "Jesus, what what do You say I am? Like, this is kind of what I'm thinking. What do You think?" It's easy to get confused.
Trisha Priebe 28:53
Jill, this is so great. You've already given us so many things to think about. I'm wondering—with the last few minutes that we have in today's episode—if you would be willing to give us a brief overview of each of the nine types. I think it'd be fun for our listeners to have the opportunity to see what numbers resonate as you describe each of the Enneagram types.
Jill McCormick 30:38
Yes, before we break down the nine types, there are three buckets of types. They're called triads.
Bethany Hager 30:44
Okay.
Jill McCormick 30:44
And so the Eights, the Nines, and the Ones are in the gut triad, which means they make decisions based on their gut and their instincts, and they very much value control. Those three types value control, and they suffer from anger.
Trisha Priebe 31:03
Okay.
Jill McCormick 31:04
Then you've got a bucket—the Twos, the Threes, and the Fours—are in the heart bucket. So they make decisions based upon how they feel. So they're more emotionally driven. And they very much value connection. And they suffer from shame.
Trisha Priebe 31:21
100%
Jill McCormick 31:22
They're never doing enough. There's always more they could do. They're not good. Then the Fives, Sixes, and the Sevens are in the head triad. So they make their decisions based upon data and information. And they suffer from fear.
Bethany Hager 31:39
Yeah.
Jill McCormick 31:39
They're very much fear-based. And so we'll talk about those things as we go through. But that just gives you some idea.
Bethany Hager 31:45
Okay!
Jill McCormick 31:45
So we'll start with the Eights. I always like to start with the Eights. So the Eights, again, they are in the gut center. Their superpower is they scan the world for injustice.
Trisha Priebe 31:56
Okay.
Jill McCormick 31:57
Both injustice and how other people are being treated and injustice in their own life. Like, they'll look around and say, "Well, why does she get that vacation, and I don't get that vacation?" So they very much value fairness, and they are motivated by justice. And so when they are healthy and whole again, justice is kind of the key. They reflect God's justice. And so my dad is an Eight. And I think Eights can be highly misunderstood for being kind of bulldozers, like they're kind of bulls in a china shop. Like, they love power. They love control. They have big personalities. "Like when an Eight enters the room, you know an Eight has entered the room. They take control. They're leaders. They're vocal. They're advocates. And they're also—I think—the most generous, kind-hearted people you will ever meet. But because their heart is so ooey gooey—I mean, they are just loving. They're so loving—but they know they can't have this loving heart out in this terrible broken world we live in. So I say they have an exoskeleton where they have to protect that ooey gooey heart. So they come across as very harsh, direct, no nonsense, this is what we're doing. I'm dictating the next step. Follow me Let's go. They kind of live by, "Go big or go home."
Trisha Priebe 33:20
Okay, so that is the Eight.
Jill McCormick 33:22
Okay, Type Nines are also in the gut center. Type Nines are the peacemakers. And they are great at scanning the world—they can see all sides of every argument for everything, which is the beautiful part of the Nine.
Bethany Hager 33:37
Yeah.
Jill McCormick 33:38
Their issue comes in where they tend to fall asleep to their own needs, dreams, wants, and motivations. They will merge with other people. So they may set out a goal for the new year and say, "I'm definitely going to do this!" And then their spouse or best friend is like—"Hey, I want to do THIS!" And they're like, "Let's do that thing!" So they tend to be indecisive, and they're also the most stubborn of the types.
Trisha Priebe 33:38
Ha!
Jill McCormick 34:06
So Nines can be sort of passive aggressive, where they want to keep the peace by saying "Yes" to you. They don't want to say "No" to you. They want to say "Yes," so they say "Yes." And then sometimes—and this is not true of all Nines, so we're painting with very broad strokes here, everybody—but they will say "Yes" to avoid confrontation, and then sometimes they just won't do it. And then the more you nag, the more they hide in their hidey hole and distance themselves from you. And so their anger doesn't come out in the vocal way an Eight's might.
Trisha Priebe 34:07
Mm-hmm.
Jill McCormick 33:38
Theirs is very much suppressed, where it's kind of like a ball that you have in a pool and you just push it down, push it down under the water, and then at a certain point the beach ball's like, "I have to come up out of the water now," and then it just explodes. But they suppress their anger because they want everybody to be happy all the time, so they kind of operate under "Peace at all costs" might be their motto.
Bethany Hager 33:46
Mm-hmm.
Jill McCormick 33:46
Then the Type Ones—they are the reformers sometimes called the perfectionists—and their superpower is scanning the world for what needs improvement, then feeling morally obligated to improve it. And then being resentful when not everyone is working as hard as they are.
Trisha Priebe 34:10
Ha!
Jill McCormick 34:10
So they are motivated by perfection. They want everything to be perfect. There is nothing that cannot be improved—the house, the marriage, the friendships, the children, the schooling—it can all be made better, and they can do it. And then they burn out. And they express their anger, not by vocalizing it, not by suppressing it, but by turning it into resentment and bitterness, and kind of leaking out on people. They are just great friends. My husband is a One.
Bethany Hager 35:57
Mm-hmm.
Jill McCormick 35:57
Some of my dearest friends are Ones, and they speak truth in love, because they radiate God's rightness and His righteousness and his goodness. All right, so Type Twos are called the helpers. So again, they're in the heart triad—they value connection, and they suffer from shame. So Type Two's superpower is scanning the room and seeing who needs what and how they can fill that need. The tricky part is that Twos suffer from not being able to label their own needs, so they can sense your needs, but they have a very hard time sensing their own needs. And the Type Twos reflect God's love to the world. They genuinely love people. People are their passion, they will drop a goal, a task, something that might be more self-focused to help somebody.
Trisha Priebe 36:57
Sure.
Jill McCormick 36:57
The tricky part is their main sin is pride, where they think they don't need help. So they are the helper; the helper does not need help.
Bethany Hager 37:07
Yeah.
Jill McCormick 37:08
So if someone says, "Well, how can I help you?" they say, "Oh, I'm good. I've got it all together. I'm fine." They have a hard time even putting a finger on where they might need help. They are exceptionally loving. They are take-the-shirt-off-their-back-and-give-it-to-you, helper kind of people. But they struggle, again, with kind of sharing who they are with other people. They're wonderful. They're so great. And the world needs more Twos, right?
Then the Type Three is the achiever or the performer. So the Type Threes will scan the room and see who they need to be or what they need to become in order to gain approval or recognition. And so they're motivated by their desire to be loved and accepted for what they do. They feel like they must work for their worth, that's where their shame comes in—in the fact that they don't think they're good enough all by themselves—that who they are on the inside isn't good enough. But look, they got featured in this magazine, or they were the keynote speaker for this thing, or they earned this award. And aren't they amazing? And so the sin that they suffer from is vanity and deceit.
Trisha Priebe 38:29
Okay.
Jill McCormick 38:29
And so that makes it sound like they lie to people. And that's not it. It's more like they lie to themselves. Like, I have to get this all together for people to like me. I have to achieve these certain things or else no one will want to hang out with me. They are the best—and I say "they" meaning "we" because I'm a Three—at wearing a mask of fake fine. We don't want to let anybody in, so if you said, "Hey, how are you?" And I've just had a horrible day, I will say, "I am so good. How are you? Tell me about your uncle? Is he still in the hospital? And what's happening with your construction project at your home?" So we deflect. We want desperately to be known. But we don't want to be known at the same time. And so we sabotage by deflecting back to you. But when we are healthy and whole, we reflect God's hope and God's brilliance. And I will say this just as a Three. I've struggled with being a Three because you know so often, we hear the phrase, "We're human beings, not human doings," and so you should do less, and try less and just rest and trust. And again, we are human beings and we are designed to rest and to trust.
Bethany Hager 39:49
Mm-hmm.
Jill McCormick 39:50
And yet Ephesians 2:10 tells us, "For we are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works." So I like to think of Threes as masterpieces on the move. That it's okay to do. It's okay to do. You can do—just don't think that that's where you get your worth.
Trisha Priebe 40:09
Yeah.
Jill McCormick 40:09
All right Type Fours. So Trisha, you're a Four right?
Trisha Priebe 40:13
Mm-hmm.
Jill McCormick 40:14
All right, so here's what the Type Fours—every other type—scans the room or scans the world, and looks around. Type Fours are the only type that scan themselves. You're not scanning other people, you're scanning yourself.
Trisha Priebe 40:33
Excellent.
Jill McCormick 40:34
And you're looking at yourself. And oh, sweet Fours. I love y'all so much.
Bethany Hager 40:38
Yeah.
Trisha Priebe 40:39
So Fours look internally, and they feel like there is something missing. There's something fundamentally flawed about who they are. Everybody else has the secret sauce for success, or popularity, or achievement. They don't have it, something is missing. And so their one motivating factor is to be themselves. They desperately want to be uniquely who God created them to be. And they want to be appreciated for being who they are. And so when when Fours are healthy and whole, they reflect God's creativity and His beauty. So for us, what I love about Fours is that Fours can find beauty in anything. They find beauty and pain. They find beauty in beauty. They are the most soulful of the types, and they are most in touch with their emotions. And my friend Sarah Westfall is a writer, and she's a Four, and she talks about how emotions are the language of her soul. And so when she feels something anger, frustration, bitterness, excitement, joy, she knows that's her cue to talk to Jesus about that emotion that that's how He speaks to her. He speaks to her through how she feels. The tricky part for some Fours is because they are so in touch with their emotions. Two things can happen. They pick one of two paths, Fours can either overshare—
Oh yeah.
Jill McCormick 42:14
—and because they're so in touch with their inner emotional life, they assume everybody else is. So they meet someone for coffee, and they're like, "And then in third grade, blah blah blah happened. And that directly impacts how I'm approaching this new work project." And, like, their friends who might be in the head triad are like, "I, uh, um, quit crying. I don't know what to do with you. Stop."
Trisha Priebe 42:39
[Laughter] You realize you are literally describing Bethany and me right now. Bethany is in the head triad, and I am in the heart triad. And I am fairly certain I have even talked about third grade. This is painfully close to home right now.
Jill McCormick 42:55
[Laughter] So Fours might overshare, and then when someone doesn't react as they were hoping, they feel like, "I'm too much. I'm too much!" And so that's where the shame comes in. "I'm too much. No one can handle all my emotions. I'm just I'm too much."
Trisha Priebe 43:11
You know, I wouldn't complain if you decided you wanted to be done talking about the Fours at this point.
Jill McCormick 43:17
[Laughter] So the second way Fours handle their emotions, sometimes like a Three to suppresses their emotions. Because Threes, while in the heart triad, don't want to share anything because they want to achieve tasks and are super into efficiency. Threes will curate their emotions. So people only see certain emotions, Fours can also curate. So I'm only going to let you in this deep to my pain, but not a level deeper. And so they very much try to keep people at bay because they're afraid of rejection by being too much. So they will they will curate. But again, Fours are soulful. They are thoughtful, they are insightful, they are loving. They're just really good people, all these types are really good people and I have friends in every type and and I want to be more like them. Because they're they're all so amazing.
Trisha Priebe 44:17
Sure.
Jill McCormick 44:17
So let's move into the final triad, which is going to be the head triad. So that's where you make your decisions based on collecting information. You value control and connection less and you value competence much more. And this triad wrestles with fear. So a Type Five—so Bethany, you might be a Type Five, or an Eight, or a Six—so let's talk about the Type Five. Type Five's superpower is scanning the world for data collection and information. You feel so much more secure and competent when you have all the facts at hand. Type Fives are the most likely to sign up for every webinar, they think might be helpful, or class, or course, or anything where they can learn they they sign up for it. Now a Five—and I have two good friends who are Fives—and if I need someone who is up to date on the latest things, not trends—like, not like they know the trends—but like data and information and strategy, I go to these two women because they research like crazy. And they're extremely insightful. So Type Fives are strategic and analytical in how they approach life. They also have a tank of emotional capacity. So it starts out the day at full. And then throughout the day, their capacity to be around other people decreases. And so it's not necessarily, you know, at 8:00, you started 100%. And by 7:00, you're at zero. It could be you had a really stressful meeting with an employee at 9am. And by 9am, your tank is done. So it's not necessarily throughout the day; it depends on how much emotional energy that you have to expand, and how long that might take you to get through. So it could last you till 7:00, or it could last you till 9am.
Bethany Hager 46:19
Mm-hmm.
Jill McCormick 46:21
And the Type Fives are the most boundaried of all the types, but they reflect God's wisdom and God's knowledge. And they're amazing, analytical, thoughtful people.
Trisha Priebe 46:34
Yep.
Jill McCormick 46:34
Let's move on to the Type Six. So the Type Six, their superpower is scanning the world for threats, and figuring out what could go wrong, what might go wrong, what probably will go wrong, and then developing a contingency to mitigate that threat.
Trisha Priebe 46:53
Okay.
Jill McCormick 46:53
They're motivated by being safe and secure. So they want to follow the rules. So they follow the rules, because following the rules brings safety and security. So again, if we go back—the Enneagram is powered by your motivations, not your external behavior. Both Type Ones—the reformers who are the perfectionists—and Type Sixes love rules, their boundaries, but the Type One follows the rule because that's the right thing to do. A Type Six follows the rule because rules bring safety. Rules bring boundaries. And they feel better with the rules. When they are healthy and whole, they reflect God's faithfulness.
Bethany Hager 47:36
Mm-hmm.
Jill McCormick 47:36
The Type Sixes are the loyalists; they are the most courageous of all types. So they love being with their people either leading a team, or they enjoy being a part of a team. And Type Six is the most common of all the types. They also are the type that has an inner committee. So there are a lot of—and I want everyone to hear me when I say this—they have an inner committee in their head. So there's a lot happening in their brain all the time. Like, again, their radar is scanning the surface. So there's a lot of information they're taking in and thinking through. And then one side's telling them to do this. And then something else is telling them to do that. And so their heads are very noisy places. And so it's very hard for them to just be quiet, and be still and remember God is in it with them. So, final type is the Type Seven. Type Sevens are the enthusiasts. So their superpower is scanning the world for the fun and the joy and the magic and the whimsy, and then chasing after it. And they are motivated by fun, by joy, by happiness —in order to outrun or out-busy their pain.
Trisha Priebe 49:03
Hmm.
Jill McCormick 49:04
They do not want to slow down, because if they slow down and quiet their hearts, they'll remember that hurtful comments are there. Remember how Dad wasn't there. Or they'll remember how a friend slighted them and they don't know what to do with it. So it's way easier to be busy doing fun things than to be in it with the pain. They prefer to not be in the pain, but again, they radiate God's joy. God's love, God's hope, again, they don't want to deal with the hard stuff. So they are the first of the types. I think they're most likely to have a T-shirt that says, "I'm fine. It's fine. Everything's fine." They want to crack a joke. If there's a hard, heavy situation, they're the people who crack the joke first. They're the people who point out the positives. "Well, I know you got fired, but also, this gives you more time for your woodworking hobby!" And it's like sometimes I just want to be sad about it—like the Type Fours—just be with me in the sadness. But the Sevens just want to chase the joy to out-busy the pain.
So there you go. There's your nine types.
Trisha Priebe 50:18
Jill, this has been an incredible conversation. And I am so thankful that it is not the end of our conversation since we will pick back up in Part 2 with our lists next week. But I want to thank you for all of the information you've shared with us today. I know I've got a lot to think about. I have books to read. I have articles to read. I have quizzes to take. And I am so thankful for you. I'm thankful for your time, and for the just the willingness and the generosity with which you shared all of the wonderful things that you've learned. So thank you, and we will not have a task today since this conversation is open-ended and will continue. So listener, we look forward to seeing you in the next episode!