Time to Fly

We finished last year with Steve Goyer’s story of how the traumatic loss of his wife helped him begin to experientially understand the difference between Beliefs that we hold onto and the development of a whole new Faith and Trust in God as well as the world we live in. 

In Episode 25,  we start this year with Eileen Hamra’s story of how the tragedy of her husband’s untimely death just before Christmas created opportunities for her to continue to open up to what is possible, create the space for her to really lean into experiencing things anew, including those magical bits that exist in the liminal spaces in our lives. Eileen was ultimately able to reconstruct her family into something totally new and beautiful. In her book, “Time to Fly” Eileen encourages us not only consider that it is time to fly in our own lives, she provide wonderful guiding examples with us of what that looked like for herself and her family. 

Transcript

Eileen Robertson Hamra. Time to Fly 1/28/22

Susan Clark: [00:00:00] So, Eileen, welcome to the art of Dynamic Competence.

Eileen Hamra: [00:00:03] Hi, how are you?

Susan Clark: [00:00:04]  Good to have you here.

Eileen Hamra: [00:00:05] Yes, it's good to be here. Thank you for having me.

Susan Clark: [00:00:07] Well, Eileen, I really loved your book. Would you like to talk a little bit about your book before we get into some questions specifically about it?

Eileen Hamra: [00:00:15] Yeah. So the name of the book is time to fly life and love after loss, and it is a book of my journey from the beginning of the book. the opening scene is me driving to the airport to pick up my husband December twenty two thousand and eleven and learning that his plane had crashed and that he did not make it. And I take you through that journey of healing and redefining myself, redefining my identity, opening up myself to loving again, which I never thought was possible, and opening up myself to things I definitely didn't think were possible. Not fixing my family, but creating new family and opening up myself to the possibility of having a fourth child at the age of forty six. So I was inspired to write it because there's a lot of aha moments, miraculous moments in these moments of grief that when I would share with people live, they were like, Oh my God, you got to write a book, you go out to write a book. And I was listening and I had heard it enough times. I was like, OK, fine, I'll write a book. It took me seven years to write the book, but and it was well worth it. Yes, it was definitely well worth it. And I actually needed that time to actually have it come to fruition. But yeah, that's the long and short of the book.

Susan Clark: [00:01:33] Well, and in it you talk about a lot of, as you said, AHAs and understandings. And something you start with in the beginning is your description of your trip to the Valley of the Sun in Arizona at Camelback Mountain. And I wanted to start with that because it's really about that beginner's mind. It really represents what is possible. Could you talk a little bit more about that? You didn't go into a lot of detail in the book, and I wanted to pull a little bit more out of you on what the impact of that was on your life.

Eileen Hamra: [00:02:04] So a little background about myself. So I grew up in Washington DC area, in Maryland, in the suburbs. You're pretty standard. Traditional mom dad four kids, Catholic went to Catholic school first through 12th grade. My dad worked for the government. My mom was a stay at home mom. You know, we had everything we needed, but we didn't have a lot. You know, I had been on a plane one time in my life up until my trip to Camelback Mountain or to Arizona. And when I was, I think in eighth grade, I was a swimmer. So although I grew up with a great life, but it was limited and I didn't even know that it was limited and I had the opportunity to travel to Phenix for this nonprofit that I had been volunteering for called the holiday project, and they had their yearly conference. And so I got on a plane and I flew out to Phoenix and I had never been anywhere like that before. I've been up and down the East Coast, but I had never been further west than West Virginia and I landed and it just was like, literally like Mars, right? To someone who had never seen anything like that. I know you're from that area. So red rocks and desert cactuses is all very familiar, but I had only ever seen those in. It's like books. Right? Yeah. So all of the television and this is probably kind of my personality, but I'm always one of those like, let's take advantage of the opportunity to just do whatever there is to do there. So we were staying at a hotel and it was near Camelback Mountain and it was July. And anyone who knows Phoenix in July, it's really hot.

Eileen Hamra: [00:03:54] So there was a group that were like, We're going to go hike it at five a.m. and I was like, I'm in, I'm in. It's twenty two years old and I was also not a hiker. My family was not a family that was particularly outdoorsy. You know, we do on occasion thing, but it wasn't our everyday weekend thing. And so I never hiked any mountain like that. And so it's five a.m. and we only had so much time until we had to actually be in the conference. So we went pretty quickly. And so it was a lot of focus on the mountain and the steps. And I remember like, I just remember it like, Oh my God, this is so beautiful. And it was so I was just so into it, first of all, because I was afraid I might fall. But if I wasn't like paying attention and I got to the top and I remember looking around and this was in 1993, so this was it was even less populated than it is today. Sure. And just looking around and breathing and like getting tears in my eyes because it was like I had never I just didn't know. This was available in the world for me. Yeah, and I think it's one of those stories that I shared because often we are living in an experience and we have all kinds of experiences. But until we experience something outside of what we're used to or what's outside the norm and almost feels like a bit of the unknown, then we're like, Whoa, I thought, I thought I knew it all kind of, you know, right? Right. It was sort of that twenty two year old like, I don't know anything.

Susan Clark: [00:05:30] Right? Well, on a path to understanding and knowledge is beginning to see that you don't know what you don't know. Correct. Widening up of that view is so important. And that seemed to be an important point in your life, because then as you are recovering from this incredibly traumatic experience in your life and you're writing this book, you make a statement, which I think is really interesting, which kind of builds on that early phase of opening up to where you'd begun to process information. You said that differences in perceptions, imagination and reality are not confusing, not right or wrong, but proof that anything is possible, proof that the sky is not the limit. So from all these experiences that you've had, I'm intrigued with what got you to this awareness, what got you to this place where you could make that kind of statement? Where does it come from?

Eileen Hamra: [00:06:28] Part of it comes from me having ideas or beliefs or perceptions and then having another experience that completely blew up what I had fully believed.

Susan Clark: [00:06:43] And your world had been shattered when your husband passed in this accident and everything had to be reformed.

Eileen Hamra: [00:06:50] Yeah, and redefined. So in addition to my own experience, though, I'm also of other people in my life, right, that are also theoretically experiencing the same experience, which is not the same experience. Right. So my children who lost their father is not the same experience. We both lost Brian or dad. Mm hmm. We didn't lose the same person. Right, right. Like, you know, in Melanie Burke and Max, they all lost their dad. They didn't lose the same person. Mm hmm. And I think it was more about like, I just never had the opportunity or had taken the time to even think that way. Mm hmm. And then as I'm processing and I'm watching and caring for my children process, it was most obvious, right, that wow, our perceptions are very different about the experiences about the person, and they're not right or wrong, and it's limitless. So many people around the world who knew Brian and they all had a different experience of him in their relationship.

Susan Clark: [00:07:56] Mm hmm. Well, and you also mentioned that anything is possible. So as you're sensing these different perceptions, everybody's perceiving Brian differently and your nuclear family, your extended family, and then, of course, his world of his colleagues and friends from all over the world. How did you begin to notice that differences in all those perspectives and then how does that roll into this understanding that it showed you anything is possible?

Eileen Hamra: [00:08:22] I was gonna say that's like one angle of the limitless sort of perceptions, right? And even my own perceptions, right? And OK. I think for myself, I think trauma is a is an opportunity to open yourself up to things that you didn't know were possible. And I had to evaluate what I was attached to, right? The perceptions or the ideas, the identity, the reality, you know, like I was, you know, I was like, really clear about things that after trauma, I was really not clear about them anymore. I had beliefs before that. I really did not have that same belief. And so it was an opportunity for me to kind of like, Wow, what else am I holding onto as a belief, as a perception, as a reality that maybe not so much and and appreciating like I, you hold on to those things because we're operating in the world and that's how we operate and function and get up every day. But when we start to question, that's the opportunity.

Susan Clark: [00:09:33] Well, let's go a little bit because that was beautiful. Let's go a little bit more than in say so in that experiencing that trauma and beginning to become aware of what you thought was true, what you perceive to be truth and real as you surrounded yourself with this very loving, caring community that was both intimate and very, very large, did the interactions with the folks that are around you potentiate that awareness that you were gaining. And how did that manifest itself? Do you have any memories of that, how that manifested itself?

Eileen Hamra: [00:10:08] Absolutely. So one of the stories I like to share just the perfection of all the people coming into my life and like that it is always that way, but I don't always view it that way.

Susan Clark: [00:10:20] Well, say more. That's very nice.

Eileen Hamra: [00:10:22] Yeah. So the idea that all the interactions that I'm having with human beings and are, like, very intentional, but mostly I'm not aware of it and intentional, not like I'm intending necessarily or I'm not even aware of my intention, but that there are no accidents can call them synchronicities or divine moments. But like the awareness that it's all divine moments, possibly we mostly aren't living that way. But when he passed, it was like, Holy Moly, look at all these divine moments. Look at all these divine angels and not like, you know, with wings or anything like that. Not for me, at least, you know, these people that that were placed in my path in my life that were like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe they're here. Like, That's the perfect person in, for example. So, Brian, you know, it was December twenty second, three days before Christmas, and we had flown home. We were living in Southern California and we had the kids and I had flown home commercially because we had extra time on vacation and we were visiting family and friends. And Brian, who was a pilot, was not his career, but it was absolutely his passion and that was his like golf and everything. All have his side hustle and hobbies. You know, it was about flying. So he was flying our plane from California to York, Pennsylvania, where my parents were living and his right engine failed on almost his final turn into the airport and devastated tiny airport. Like not towered. Brian And I were not particularly, we're not particularly religious, so spiritual, but not religious. So afterwards, we're like, I don't know where we're going to have this. I don't know where I'm going to have this celebration of life. This service, like I wasn't planning on having a service. He was thirty eight. I'm forty one. I'm like, It's Christmas. Like, I don't even know what to do or how to do this. And the day after the plane had crashed, my brother and father went to the airport to collect the Christmas gifts because they were all on the plane, and this gentleman had called the airport and wanted to meet with me or talk with me. And I thought, That's kind of odd. Oh, in the funeral home down the street from my parents and I was like, ambulance chasing Funeral Home director. Like, What is that? That's weird. But my my my brother insisted that I call. I was uncomfortable. I was like, No, but I just feel like you should call. I call and he's like, I, my name is Al Conner and I'm a pilot. And I landed a half an hour before Brian was supposed to land. And I heard him in the pattern, you know, he heard the conversation and he said, I want to take care of all of your funeral expenses. And I was like, Oh my gosh. So then I have this pilot funeral director leading me through the unthinkable. You couldn't think of a person better to do that.

Susan Clark: [00:13:16] He was an angel.

Eileen Hamra: [00:13:16] An angel. Absolutely. And then he had set me up with this woman in Baltimore. Brian's family was living in Pennsylvania. Rest of my family was in Maryland. I had grown up there. I was like, We'll have it in Baltimore. It's a little bit more accessible than your PA. It's close, but let's have it there. And he set me up with this caterer and she recommends this venue. She's like, What do you think about the Baltimore Museum of Industry? And I had never heard of it. It was a business museum. Brian was a serial entrepreneur and it had a twin engine plane hanging from the ceiling. And I was like, I can't even what is happening, who is in charge of this funeral because it certainly did not feel like me. It definitely felt like this was being handed to me. It's going to be hell, Eileen. But you will be supported from the pilot funeral director to the perfect venue. And even when the woman was describing maybe what we would want to have on the menu, she literally listed Brian's favorite foods, which were not mine like bacon wrapped scallops and New England clam chowder. And I'm like, Is he like in your ear? Mm hmm. And that was just the kind of the beginning of experiences like that. You know, I talk a lot about those signs in th ebook.

Susan Clark: [00:14:33] And is that everything is possible? I mean, I think to wrap it back to that quotation, it's really about everything is possible.

Eileen Hamra: [00:14:40] Yeah, yeah.

Susan Clark: [00:14:41] And being open to it open. Absolutely wonderful. Well, there was another piece kind of building on that and that awareness and understanding that you have on Page Eighty five, I thought it was really interesting a quotation you had stated that each of us is trying to make sense of things by weaving together facts and feelings that we can live with. Did you want to talk about that a little bit more? Because in today's world, I think that's a really important question of how we weave together the story that we can live with and becoming aware of that and becoming aware of what we're trying to do.

Eileen Hamra: [00:15:21] Yeah. The first thing that comes to my mind now when I'm thinking about that is, you know, one of the last stages of grief is meaning making and grief or experience. The human experience is to make meaning of our experiences and make meaning and language to remember it. And you know, we grow up inside of these paradigms and sets of languages and depending on your family and depending on where you grow up and depending on the language you spoke. And all of that like shapes that narrative and what's possible, how you make meaning and certain things are in the realm, you know, and certain things are not in the realm. It's interesting you were talking about before we we began Burning Man, right? Like, there's a lot more available as possibilities in that community than other communities. Mm hmm.

Susan Clark: [00:16:16] Did you want to talk any more about how the trauma affected you?

Eileen Hamra: [00:16:21] When it comes to feeling and what almost like what we could handle in the moment or where we are in the moment? And I think I learned to be with the uncomfortableness of the experience.

Susan Clark: [00:16:37] And what do you mean by to be with the uncomfortableness of an experience?

Eileen Hamra: [00:16:42] So often for myself, at least when I'm when something is uncomfortable, like I want to create a meaning, a way to handle it, a way to deal with it, that we'll get rid of the pain from as simple as like, well, it doesn't matter to distraction. I'll just like not deal with it now, you know, like, I'm just going to, like, get myself busy doing something else. So we have so many ways of not being with experiences or not looking at why experiences for ourselves are so uncomfortable. And I've learned that often it's like being allowing myself to be in the moment where I'm uncomfortable. And notice what I'm actually really looking at. What is the meaning that I'm making? What is the conversation I'm having in my head? What are the beliefs that I'm holding on to that are causing the upset? Because that is where the sort of juice, the edge, it's so uncomfortable to stay there. But unless we're willing to stay there and look and explore and question all of that experience, that's where the opportunities are. And it's really where we want to go, stay away from.

Susan Clark: [00:18:03] And so what I'm hearing is saying it's in those painful places that cause to become much more conscious of what facts you're relying on, what feelings you're going through, or it has the potential right. That uncomfortable place has a potential to make you more conscious of the facts and feelings that are surrounding the situation that would allow you to make different choices that ultimately become transformative.

Eileen Hamra: [00:18:28] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Susan Clark: [00:18:30] It's amazing. Yeah. Well, let's talk a little bit more about that idea of transformation, because the other thing that I heard in your book leading from what you just said, you talked about at first, there's a spark of faith and then you lean into the hurt, turning it from a flame to a fire. And I love how you describe that, and I think it's exactly what you talk about. What do you do with the hurt? But are there examples where you felt you particularly did it well in the process of your transformation from this trauma?

Eileen Hamra: [00:19:06] So the one that's popping up into my mind right now is my relationship that I had with my daughter, Melanie and pre Brian passing. She was eight, you know, quote strong willed, defiant as an eight year old could be. I was so excited when I found out I was pregnant with her and that she was a girl because I thought I was like, Oh great, I'm a girl. She's going to be a girl. Like, I know I'm going to know what to do. Yeah, like, that's hilarious that I even thought that. But like she, she came out and I was like, you know, she came out breech to like, I was like, Yeah, she came out exactly how she was going to come out, right? Like nothing that I thought or imagined about Little Miss Mel. And I think, you know, is partly transformation of motherhood and me. Yes, my selfishness, you know, my life was always just mine and sort of Brian's. But like, you know, and then my body became hers for a while. And and all of that, but it was sort of like in the edge of my mind, I was like, I didn't sign up for that, like I did not sign up for that. Now I'm in. Apparently, I signed up to be a mother, but I didn't know that it was going to be like that. But I loved my kids. I loved her so much. I love being a mom. I had more. But Melanie was difficult for me, like most people. They have multiple.

Eileen Hamra: [00:20:24] Or maybe one who knows whatever one of them is hard, harder than the others. Oh yes. Yeah. And it flips and changes. But at the time Brian passed, s he was definitely sort of the one that Brian, I would just pass the buck. I'm like, You take her, you know, you deal with her. I can't do it anymore. Pass the buck. It was like, I didn't have to deal with that. Mm hmm. I almost want to cry it out because it was like, I want to cry because it was like, Wow, like, I can be compassionate for my, for my humanity in the moment. But like, I was like, Wow, I really need to apologize because I'm kind of a jerk to her. I'm not kind of a jerk. I am a jerk to her. Mm hmm. Like, that was not a comfortable place for me to be. I didn't want to admit that to her. And yet when I'm looking at my children and she was not rejecting me or anything like that, like she was actually the one the night that he died, that was comforting me. Right? So it was less about her reaction to me in the moments. It was more about what I knew about what I needed to say to her and leaning into that and finding the words and finding the courage to just apologize and let her say whatever she needed to say. Which wasn't much because she loved me, but I felt like I needed to do that. And that's just one example.

Susan Clark: [00:21:53] Well, and I think it's also a really important one because it was a reconstitution, I suspect, of your relationship with her. That definitely needed to happen in the absence of her wonderful father. And so those are the kinds of things that I'm so intrigued with as we talk about this Art of Dynamic Competence. It's leaning into what needs to be done, and it's hopefully practicing it enough that you don't have to only have trauma and tremendous pain to do it. Yeah, but we know that if it happens, that's the only thing that you can really do if you're going to come out of this in any transformative way. We run and hide and it's only going to follow us and continue to follow us. If we can lean into it, then it can change. And then the challenge is when there's much smaller rubs, right? There's not a big trauma, but a small rub. Can we lean into that and in the process begin to change our relationship with those around us, the environment, whatever it is that we're interfacing with? Can we do that? And so I think that's what's been so powerful in reading your book is that you show in the midst of this trauma how you keep leaning into it, how you keep asking questions, how do you keep bringing in new perspectives and seeing them show up? And then, of course, seeing them show up in terms of all of the beautiful angels, the possibility that can be there. I mean, you did that over and over in the book. So well,

Eileen Hamra: [00:23:20] Yeah, it's like almost like you get to see it right. Like, you're like, Oh, this pain, this upset. It's like if you start to appreciate it and I want you made this up, but it's like, it's not happening to you. It's happening for you. This experience is actually happening for you. And if you just view it like that, you're like, Wow, this is for my expansion and for me, an expansion being just more love, more openness, more peace. Even if it doesn't feel like that in the moment, it's like, Oh, wow. But if I lean into this and examine and question and then bring something to it that I hadn't thought of bringing before, I think that's the other thing it's like. Often we're limited to the viewpoint back at the Camelback Mountain, it's like we're limited it to what we bring to to situations like, Well, I'll bring my humor. I'm really good at figuring things out. I'm super smart. I'll bring all of that because that's what I'm used to bringing. I talk about this in the book. It's like I am not used to bringing surrender now. That is not a tool in my toolbox that is like equal in measure to the other tools. And it's like, but sometimes that's what's needed.

Susan Clark: [00:24:34] And it felt like in the book that that's what you were leaning into. A lot of the leaning into had to go to surrender to allow these angels to come into your life, to allow for things to manifest that needed to manifest. That was very important for you.

Eileen Hamra: [00:24:48] Yeah, I do have to say that trauma, though, probably allows surrender a little bit easier just because I didn't even have the energy to fight. But maybe, you know, some people may. It may even fire them up more right to fight,

Susan Clark: [00:25:02] And everyone's going to be different. Absolutely. What we're getting to is how it is that these traumatic events, how we can learn to respond and learn from examples of these extremes so we don't have to go in that space. Yes. And that it will show up like anything. And when it does, how do we address it? So those are the kinds of questions, especially with the world in such tumultuous times right now. How is it that we don't curl into a fetal ball or run away, but we really lean into it and lean into that surrender as we go forward through it because we're all facing trauma right now of some form or another?

Eileen Hamra: [00:25:39] Yes.

Susan Clark: [00:25:40] And I think one of the other things that I really liked about your book as you kind of began to develop it deeper and deeper of what you learned through this traumatic process, you began to use the word liminal spaces of things that you began to perceive that were originally kind of right beyond your perception or that we're moving. You were moving through some intermediate spaces and moving on to something else. Would you like to talk a bit about how it really manifested in you, how you felt yourself as you began to move into those liminal spaces as you began to perceive a little bit about them? Where did they show up for you?

Eileen Hamra: [00:26:22] It was interesting because maybe before I was experiencing moments, I would have said it would be like on the top of Camelback Mountain, right? But it wasn't like that. They were. It was very everyday moments that were like, Holy cow, what is that? It's funny because I'll still I still experience them then now. And it's funny. I'll say I don't know why. I'm still surprised, you know, like, there's just moments where, yeah, where you just know that we don't know exactly what's going on and there is more than meets the eye. And there's all those statistics about, you know, we can only see what four percent of what's actually happening on Earth. But I had experiences everything from crazy, vivid dreams specifically about the one where I share about this story in the book. But I share a lot about me opening up myself to love again. And I had met my now husband, but I had just met him, and I had this crazy, vivid dream about Brian. I had actually had two dreams, but they were not good. But prior to since he passed and told this dream like ones where he wouldn't talk to me or he was like, It was weird, but this dream, I was like, Oh my god, Brian, I missed you so much. And he was like, You don't ever have to miss me, I am always with you. And I started, like crying in my dream. And then I asked him, I said, OK, well, what about this new guy, Mike? And he said, Well, he used to be a jerk, but he's a really great guy and you should go for it.

Eileen Hamra: [00:28:05] And I've got your back. And he gave me this huge hug and I woke up and I had chills from head to toe. I had tears like streaming down my face and you could say, Oh, that's you know, you're just your subconscious processing, blah blah blah blah blah. And I was like, Yeah, your subconscious processes all the time and dreams or whatever, but like that was unique. That was not the kind of experience actually before or even after that I've had, and I don't know how that all works as an example. And there was other ones that sign's; little background I shared about my sister passing as well. Mm hmm. In the book, and she her name was Patricia Patricia, and we flew home to California and I after being on the East Coast with the funeral, and I'm driving down the 405 from the airport to go to home. And I look up on this billboard and it now says now playing on one hundred three point five, Van Morrison's Into the Mystic, which is the song we played at my sister's funeral in a radio station. And she died in nineteen ninety three. This is thousand early twelve and underneath it, it says Deejay Brian. And I was like, Are you freaking kidding me? He's playing Van Morrison's into the Mystic. I don't listen to that radio station. There's a million in one billboards on the 405, and if you've ever been in Southern California, it's like eight lanes or 10 lanes.

Eileen Hamra: [00:29:34] And what had my eyes go up there and I was like, Whoa, whoa. Like, we're with you, we're with you, and we'd be in the car. This was nuts. I was in the car with Mike one time and on the radio station on the thing. We didn't actually have the radio turned up, but it said the song that we played it was Adele's Someone Like You. It said that it was playing on the radio. And then we and I said, I don't really want to hear that song right now or try to, you know, this is when Mike and I were dating. So I went to go turn up the radio. The song wasn't on, but it was on on the dashboard like it was playing and. And he even had experiences. Wow. That day that I had that dream about Brian. He called me that next day and said he had had a similar dream. He didn't even know who Brian was with Brian. Yeah. And so it's like, and that's great if you want to, you know, if you're not open, you could dismiss all of those things to coincidences and and all of that. But I it's too many for me to dismiss them, and there's too many. I just know that I don't know, right? And I just know that there's so much more. And it's comforting, right?

Susan Clark: [00:30:49] When I like you using the word comforting because as humans, we know we need structure. We know we need to have things that are have beginnings and endings. We feel comfortable when we are in defined spaces. And part of what creating meaning is is creating those spaces and in doing that and creating that meaning. What you're describing so clearly is that there is other kinds of meanings that we can create that aren't traditionally in our cultural structure. And so in the religious experience and the spiritual experience, the things that you're describing are very common because you're tapping into that. And part of what I'm intrigued with and why I started this podcast is because I think it's so important that we continue to touch on creating that kind of meaning and allowing for new kinds of meaning to come in. And as you said, it could have been just a coincidence that the billboard was playing that Van Morrison song with the DJ Brian. But by that coming on and you noticing it, that became comforting to you, that became a piece that made it a little bit easier to be in this space and be open to possibilities instead of being afraid and closed down. And that, to me, is so powerful. And what I got so much out of your book is just that feeling as we go through it is how is it that we're in that space? How do we find that liminal space that gives us that comfort that gives us that ability to stand up to all of the hardness that's coming to lean into it so that we're able to understand it better? Those are really powerful pieces that you describe so well in your book.

Eileen Hamra: [00:32:36] That was a great summary. Yeah, thank you for sharing that.

Susan Clark: [00:32:40] Well, and I think the work that you did in the book was so powerful because as you kind of ended up towards the end of it, Eileen, you said when we radically accept the fact that there are some things we cannot control or change without surrender and non-attachment, we cannot create anything new. And what I've seen in your work and heard now, what you're doing in your whole life is really creating newness and a big part of your life has become creating a new family. Do you want to talk about how surrender and non attachment has really helped you in that process?

Eileen Hamra: [00:33:17] That's great. It's one of the one of the reasons I wanted to write the book because I wanted to share that transformation and noticing where I was attached, where I had beliefs that I needed to surrender to and and let go of. So in the process of opening up myself to loving again, just noticing. Well, there was nothing I could could have done to control Brian passing. That was not for me to decide. And it's interesting because this is one of those things. It's like, it's hard to say because it is not always comfortable, even even as I say it now, which is like, it's completely OK with me. And a lot of people when that happens is like, that should not have happened. It should not have happened. And I'm OK with people wanting to do that. But that isn't the perspective that was empowering for me because there was nothing I could do about it, right? It's like arguing with reality. And so this is what's so and now what?

Susan Clark: [00:34:22] So you've surrendered to what is so right? And then, now, now what?

Eileen Hamra: [00:34:27] And you know, I had a lot of ideas like, I got lucky once because I thought I thought Brian was amazing, you know, like, that's why I married him. And it didn't seem fair or possible, really to actually find another amazing guy. Like, there won't be two for me. And because I'm a jerk sometimes. So like, why would I get to and you know, all of that like, and how will I meet him? And who's going to want to marry a woman who has three children that are little the whole world of really, Could I actually love someone fully?  Because what if they died, too? Could I go through that pain again or what will it mean? Like how will people perceive me? All of it. What would the kids think? Oh, yeah, like it's not like a Oh boom, we're just going to like, fall in love again, take some work. It takes some leaning in, leaning and exploring. But I think surrender, surrender. Most people are like, Oh yeah, well, she fell in love again. That's normal. But like the fact that I actually opened up myself to having another child at 46, most people are like, Why and what would you do that for? And because it wasn't easy. And that was one of those surrender. Absolutely surrender because I was one hundred and one million percent sure that I never wanted to have another child.

Eileen Hamra: [00:35:52] Mm hmm. So sure, I tied my tubes and I was definitely done. And then I met Mike, and then someone in a coaching call suggested that maybe I should just think and consider the possibility that that's what's wanted for our relationship. Mm hmm. And I was like, what? But I have learned, right? Like just to consider I wasn't committing to anything in the consideration. And I really looked and I thought, Wow, you know, I talk about like, there's no fixing the family that was broken when Brian died, but the possibility of having a new child was like totally creating something new. And I definitely had ideas that that wasn't even physically possible. I was actually sure, you know, in my mind, but I was like, Actually, nobody, nobody who actually knows, like a doctor, like the facts had said that to me, but in my mind, I had said that. So I started exploring. I was like, Well, let's just look. So I was like, All right, if that possibility of creating a new family was exciting to me, well, let's just see. And then I went to doctor's appointments, and it was never a no. It wasn't like, Oh, you're it's likely, but it wasn't ever like, No, it's not possible for you.

Eileen Hamra: [00:37:13] Mm hmm. And so I just kept going, and I'm not trying to make light of having a child late because that is not the not in the cards for everyone. But it was definitely one of those experiences that, you know, if you had asked me 10 years ago, like, you're going to be married to a new man and you're going to you're going to be fifty one and have a four year old and you're going to be, you know, this whole life, right, that I never wanted or thought was possible. I would have been like if you had like the crystal ball and you had said, this is what your life's going to look like in 10 years, Eileen, I would be like. Crazy, like no way. And here I am. Mm hmm. You know, I think it's super important. One of the reasons I wrote it and one of the reasons I named it to time to fly was because it's like taking advantage of those opportunities, even if they don't look like opportunities. Noticing that they are opportunities or or considering that they are opportunities to grow and expand and have experiences that you never, never knew and are amazing and life fulfilling.

Susan Clark: [00:38:25] Well, what you're talking about and what I'm hearing is that you really are living and manifesting a whole new life for the family because of your ability to surrender and to lose some of the attachments. Yes. And although I agree with you, we don't make light of how difficult it is to have children at older ages, and we want to appreciate everybody who's going through this for whatever reason. What you just demonstrated is the possibilities that can arise when you surrender and you lose attachment to things that more possibilities can come forward. And it may not be having a child. It may be something else in your life. But for you, that's what it was, and you've been really able to see and express that so beautifully as we kind of move through the book and into your life now. That's a huge epilog, I guess, to it. Yeah, of where you've been able to go.

Eileen Hamra: [00:39:20] And I think it's a little cliche, right? But Zach is the baby's name, and he's he's everyone's so, you know, he's mine and my son and he's Melanie, Brooke and Max's brother, and he is like the glue. And we could have absolutely had a great life and a great experience, and that wasn't necessary. But it is like amazing to have Zach in our life. That really makes us a family in a different way, in a way that frankly wasn't really open to. When I first met Mike and I, I had to surrender and I had to explore and question why and what I was attached to.

Susan Clark: [00:40:05] And I think that's beautiful because the baby is a manifestation of that. But each one of us in our own lives have those things that we don't expect to show up. We get attached to something else and we might miss it. But when we do allow it into our lives, it is something that becomes a glue that we start feeling that glue together. As a unit, you can start feeling that structure and everyone to feel comfortable within that structure. I think it's a great story.

Eileen Hamra: [00:40:33] And I think the other just one other highlight to that. We all have those things that we really want in life, like we really want them. It won't let us go. What we want won't let us go. But we've created barriers in mindset or ideas or like, it's not possible. It doesn't make sense. I'll be embarrassed. What if I actually did that? What will people think? I'll fail all of the things that keep us stuck and stopped in what we really want. And I just invite people who are listening to just look there because it's fine. You don't have to do that. Like, I'm not like, you should not do that, but it is time to fly. And just bring some more inquiry. It's like, if I really want that, what am I willing to let go of? What am I willing to surrender to to have what I really want? And I think the other thing that I've learned about this on attachment and surrender is like, it doesn't always look the way you think it's going to look.

Susan Clark: [00:41:34] It doesn't always look pretty, either.

Eileen Hamra: [00:41:36] No, no. It's funny because I keep saying I'm never going to say never, ever again, because that is like the invitation for that experience to happen. It's like, I am never going to do that. I'm never moving to Missouri here. I am moving to Missouri. I am never going to have another child, had another child. I am, you know, I'm not going to say it anymore because who knows, really? Who knows?

Susan Clark: [00:41:58] Well, that takes us into your current time and you are getting ready to host a lovely retreat in Costa Rica? Yes. Do you want to talk a little bit about what you want to accomplish in that what you want the participants to be able to do and just as importantly, how you want it to affect yourself?

Eileen Hamra: [00:42:17] Yes. So thank you for letting me share about this because this is super excited. It's been a rough time, right? The pandemic, the lockdowns, the the mask wearing all of it, you know, the political upheaval. Wherever you fall in any of that, it's been, It's been a lot for humanity, and I'm super excited to be co-hosting with Debbie Dela Cuesta and Melissa Crutchfield and beautiful blue spirit. It's in Nos Sara Costa Rica, this amazing resort. And. What we intend for people really is, you know, it's an opportunity to restore, to rejuvenate, to have fun, to reflect, to be among people that are there for self care and self love. We've got some really great workshops that were that were designing because I do believe that this sort of communal transformation that our world is under right now is like things are emerging for people, right? There's opportunities for people that with some time for themselves, they can explore those. And so so it's an opportunity to see what's emerging for for you, for others in your life. Enjoy Costa Rica, Costa Rica is gorgeous. It's on the beach where the rainforest meets the beach. The howler monkeys are like right outside your door. It's going to be amazing and the love for people to join us.

Susan Clark: [00:43:46] What do you hope to get out of it?

Eileen Hamra: [00:43:47] Yeah. So for me, I find that when I'm in those spaces, I am the most myself. It's coming to my mind. I did a book reading actually the other day with these families that have lost family members to gun violence in Chicago. Mm hmm. And I was reading the book and people were sharing and I was of service. But what I noticed in the moment was like how much they were reminding me of what I needed to hear. And although it looked like I was of service to them, it was a mutual exchange.

Susan Clark: [00:44:23] And oh, isn't that always the case,

Eileen Hamra: [00:44:25] Always the case? And I was so grateful that they allowed for me to be there. It was like this mutual gratitude, and I'm just happy when I'm in that space because I will get as much and I don't know what I'm going to get, because that's how that goes, right? Because of course, I'm going to be there and be in the moment and see what I'm dealing with. It's April 30th through May 7th. So that's four and a half months from now or whatever that is. I can't do math right now. Whatever I'm dealing with, I'll bring that and whatever is emerging for me, I'll be looking at that myself. But for me, just being of service and creating that space for people will be my joy and my pleasure.

Susan Clark: [00:45:07] Wonderful. Well, I hope it goes very well. I think your life continues to evolve in wonderful ways and as you continue to transform yourself and your family. What a delightful place to be and and what a wonderful service you've given us. And all the listeners of this podcast is what you've experienced and what you've done with those experiences. And I think that's so wonderful and quite impressive. And to be able to speak of them in ways that can help all of us through whatever level of trauma that we're working through on a daily basis to begin to think about, it's time to fly.

Eileen Hamra: [00:45:44] Yeah. Thank you, Susan. This is it was great. It was really wonderful. Yeah, thank you for letting me share. Reminds me of who I am. So thank you.

Susan Clark: [00:45:52] You're more than welcome.