In this episode we examine George Orwell’s relentlessly relevant 1984, the novel that defined the genre of dystopian fiction. In this story the machine of government is the ultimate power, capable of bending truths as fundamental as ‘2+2=4’. We investigate Orwell’s background, the book’s composition, and its parallels in modern life that hit a little too close to home.
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War is peace freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength.
Welcome to Band book club we're your hosts Rafaella, Nick and Nikolas.
So that quote, Nicola was given at the beginning was from George Orwell's 1984. A totally groundbreaking book to say the least. It define the dystopian genre which you see everywhere today in books like The Handmaid's Tale and a million other things. And it rocked my world. Honestly, I saw there was so much that you can relate to especially living in the I guess we're in the 2020s. Now, but through the 2010s through the 2000s. And, wow, I mean, it was totally ahead of its time, that's for sure. For a book that came out in 1949. You know, if it could have been written last year, there was a book that I got introduced about a couple of weeks ago. And I finished it in about three or four days with some I'm very proud of myself. And the reason for it is because it was so interesting. I didn't want to put it down. It was a page turner, it was a page turner
Well, it was your first time reading it, me and Rafi. It was part of our curriculum in school, which it's not the case for everybody in America. It is a banned book. after all. It's It's our first book we're discussing on banned book podcast. But I was talking to Rafi earlier and saying, you know, I I don't think this is a book that a high school aged kid could even appreciate. So I'm just so glad that both of us got to come back to it, as you know, pseudo grown ups. And yeah, definitely, it definitely felt different. Because we know when you read this in school, you're just trying to do assignments, or write a paper about it. This time, I could really just dive in and think about it for myself without trying to answer questions along with it. Yeah, this is definitely an adult book, adult themes, a lot of themes in this book, but the main one, I would say is the government. And I guess if you take the message of the book, it's that all governments end in misery and suffering. But before we get deeper into that, let's just give a little bit of background on the actual story. So this is a fictional book. It's set in a world, a state called Oceania, which is modeled, not so loosely off of the USSR under Stalin. The main character is Winston Smith, who works for one of the ministries in this government, the Ministry of truth. And his job is to basically tailor information to the narrative of what the party or big brother, there's a lot of names for the antagonistic force in this book. But basically, Winston is editing information to fit a lie, a big lie that the government is trying to sell to everybody living in Oceania. And the conflict comes from the fact that you know, while Winston is part of the problem, he's the one actually editing information. He also senses that something is really wrong with Oceania, and the way it's run. And he's trying to reconcile the inhumane authoritarian system with his own feelings as a person. And that leads him into trouble, especially once he starts to pursue a relationship with this woman named Julia. And as he starts to learn what the government's true definition of obedience is, which he does learn pretty good by the end of the book, but only after he's lost his mind and pretty much everything else. So now that we've got that out of the way, where do you guys want to start with this one? Let's talk about why it was banned? Yeah, well, like I mentioned, this is a book about heavily about government. And governments across the world did not take too kindly to the message of this book. And what's interesting, it was it's not just you know, the Stalinist socialist governments that this was a sort of critique of,
at least the most on the nose critico but also, places like the US to it was banned there. It was banned in Russia. It was even challenged.
Just back in 2017, again in America. So what why do you think this book is, is been bothering people for so long and continues to? I mean, it's not especially back then it wasn't very difficult to ban a book, as long as any book was supporting any communism ism. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was during the Red Scare and all of that stuff. Yeah, it makes sense that it was banned in a place like Russia, because obviously, it's making it look extremely negative. And it's almost encouraging people to kind of break away and, and not follow and rebel. And so it doesn't surprise me that it would be banned and burned in a place like that. And I thought it was interesting that they finally wanted to allow it back into Russia after edits were made. And so it almost just kind of copies what the book is teaching where, you know, information is is rewritten or deleted. And, and so basically, they were doing that exact same thing now for America, it is kind of interesting that it's, you know, banned here just because seemed like a book that would show you how wrong all of that was in the kind of proves the point of the book that the fact that you're banning it. Yeah. And and so just to know, it was banned here for being pro communist doesn't, you know, I guess I personally did not get that sense from the book that it was supporting that kind of an idea or making it look good. And then obviously, they say it's very violent and sexually charged, which, and there are a lot of, I guess, sexual themes throughout the book, but nothing that I considered to be, you know, too much to read. Yeah, that was the charge back in 2017. I think they've stopped arguing against the book as being pro communist. Since the first time it was challenged back in the 50s, or whatever. Yeah, it's, it's interesting that it's able to piss off completely opposite styles of governments across the world. Also, from, from what you were talking about, with the edits made to the Russian edition. Wouldn't you like to get your hands on one of those? The editor? Yeah, I'd actually love to read that and see what, what exactly they How could you make that story? You know, so different that it's, I guess, I'm just curious to know, what the heck did they fix? the whole story was about socialism? I know, how can you change that? I don't know. Was it? Was it just a satire on socialism? Or was do you think it was a slam against government in general, just the concept of government? Because I think that's a very interesting discussion. The main idea that I took from the book is how bad socialism can be. Yeah, but the one of the interesting things about that is, Orwell was a outspoken socialist himself. But he also has been, you know, recorded condemning socialism to, so that that was part of the interesting thing, to me reading this, as I was trying to figure out, you know, where is this guy coming from? on this issue? What's he really trying to say? I found about that, after that at the book, and it still messes with my mind, I'm trying to figure out why he wrote a book like this. It's very confusing. It is it is confusing, because, you know, it shows you how his main character really wanted to break free and have an individual thought and, and, you know, he, he realized something was wrong with the way he was living. And he found someone that kind of shared the same values as him. And so just to know that he was a socialist himself, or, you know, was pro socialist. Yeah, maybe, because he supported it so much maybe he, he wanted to show people, this is the best thing to do. I mean, he wasn't he wasn't just like a liberal arts school. Level socialist, like you see, today, kids in college, he really put his money where his mouth was, if you look at some of his biography, he even fought with the socialist militia during the Spanish Civil War. And there was actually a bounty put on his head, and he had to flee to France to avoid that. I don't know I still, I still have trouble pinning down his real opinion, which, I think that's a mark of a great book. If it's not just obvious, you know, the author's trying to spoon feed me, you know, this kind of idea. I wish he could have lived a little bit longer, so he can answer some of these questions. Yeah, he actually died about seven months after from TB. Yeah, that I mean, that's a whole nother story to a whole nother that's that's not a good thing to say. If anybody cares about language listening that don't say a whole nother it's just redundant. But yeah, the composition of the books.
Do you want to get into that a little bit. So, before Orwell started this book, his first wife had just died of just I think it was a anaesthesia overdose. Her doctors mismanaged while she was getting some routine operation. So that messed him up a little bit. And then he actually got tuberculosis, which he would end up dying from. And he moved to this remote Scottish outpost and started writing this book. And it he said, his main inspiration was the Tehran conference from 1944, where Churchill and all the Allied leaders met, he started the project off with the title, the last man in Europe. And he sent a bit of it to his editor, and really didn't have the intention even of finishing it. Because, you know, he was dying. But, uh, his editor, wrote him back very quickly, and said, you know, basically, I don't really care that you're dying, you got to finish this book, it's gonna make us a lot of money, you're going to be famous, and the world needs to see it. So he was really racing against his own, you know, mortality, to finish this thing. And he even said that, you know, the book maybe wouldn't have been so dark and depressing if he weren't having such a hard time writing it. And so you definitely get that from and yeah, you totally get the book. I know as you go. A very real feeling in the book that's filled with death and hopelessness suffering and, and he was also challenged one more time during the period that he was writing the book.He almost died with his nephews, nephews and nieces. I think they went for a boat ride. And they almost almost drowned. Yeah, almost drowned. But you can tell he was just so influenced by the world he was living in. I mean, that's another crazy thing going on in his life. I mean, imagine writing a book. Well, you know, World War Two is coming to a close. But he obviously was heavily influenced by Hitler's Nazi Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union. And you can definitely, you get some similarities from, you know, some of those things. Like, for example, the police who govern the people and rallies, yeah, enforce all the rules to they're like the Gestapo or, yeah, KGB, in the Yeah, two minutes hate, where you just scream at your enemy, which, when this book was Goldstein, and nobody really understood, you know, who Goldstein was, why they all hate him. But you know, the whole like Oceania is people would just come together from all the different ministries and just scream at a picture of Goldstein. And
it's just, again, you hear about all these people in history, and you're just told to hate somebody, and you don't really know too much about them. Yeah, especially the rallies where they're just, it's everybody yelling at the picture of Goldstein, and they don't know why anybody who has parents that watch the news, I think, could be able to relate to that scene, you know, just, you see a picture of whoever the media tells you is the bad guy, and you scream, and then they show you the good guy, like big brother in this book, and then you're happy. And actually, you know, in this world, you know, there are these telescreens that watch everybody and see everything and Big Brother, he his face always shows on the screen too. And there are pictures of him everywhere, plastered on the walls. And they say that the way his face looks, was supposed to be reminiscent to Joseph Stalin's face that was seen in the Soviet Union. So I thought that was kind of interesting that he kind of took that idea. I also read that he got the inspiration for the face and the character of Big Brother from Winston Churchill. Which again, you know, he's the opposite end of the political spectrum. Yeah, for sure. All and you said that when, when Winston Churchill read the book, he Yeah.
So So I think it's that that goes to my point of saying earlier, where I really don't know what he was trying to say. I don't think it's fair to say this is a pro or an anti communist book. Because it I mean, it's just pieces of all the different types of governments are in this book, and I think he's criticizing all of them. Do you think at the end of his life, he didn't believe in socialism anymore.
And he was trying to actually tell a story to explain to people how bad it can be, if that really happened, how bad socialism could be or just like if it's at its extreme.
This is what could happen. Do you think at the end of his life he realized that this is not This is not working Right I should warn them kind of thing? Well, yeah, I do think the book is I don't think it's, you can just reduce it down to this. It's saying communism good or communism bad. I think, especially if you look at his life, this is just a book written by a guy that has a problem with any kind of system of authority or government. I mean, he was a weird, free spirited kid from the beginning. I remember reading.
When he was just a little boy, he had his head, standing on his head in the middle of a field, and someone came up to him said, What are you doing? And he said, people notice you more if you stand on your head than if you just stand normally. And he was a weirdo. Yeah, it's kind of a, and he was also a police officer. Yeah. he worked for police. And before that, he went to boarding school. And he had a lot of problems there. An Essay came out of that. That's a big deal.
I'm learning about it right now in a nonfiction class, but it's called such such where the joys, and that's basically a criticism of the, you know, authority in the school system there. Then, like you said, Yeah, he was a police officer in India. He spent a lot of times a lot of time in huge prisons. And he commented later about his work as an officer. And he said he, he totally read it. Yeah. And then at the same time, he was, well, shortly after that he was literally a member of the socialist militia, and the Spanish Civil War. And, but I think the the most autobiographical part of his life, that's in 1984, is when he was working for the BBC, as a, as a reporter. Did you see the similarities there? Between Johnston? He was actually changing facts, right? Yeah, he, well, allegedly, he was, he was working during World War Two. And he was reporting on
different incidents. And a lot of his stuff would get rejected. And they would say, this doesn't fit the narrative that we're trying to go for right now. And he would have to jolly it up kind of, and make it more about like, Oh, great. Mother, England is doing great. And, you know, forget about the, you know, all these people getting murdered and whatnot. so you could say that he's whole book is basically pieces of his life. Yeah, I mean, I think like, like any good fiction, you know, it's, it's a lie. And, you know, from one way of looking at it, but it's, it's also somebody writing about what they really know. And if you can pull that off, you can make something that's actually true. He definitely did. Yeah. So obviously, this book is extremely controversial. I mean, it was banned. But we can talk about a little bit how you know, even today, it's still controversial. This book, I think, since we've been in, you know, quarantine and all, you know, it's come up a lot. And a lot of people are rereading this book. So we're not alone here. But if you see the Prager, you video, well, not just Prager, you but you know, other
outlets, so that people on different sides on opposite sides will reference this book and say how relatable it is to today's times. And so, you know, obviously, they mean different things. But, you know, they all use it for their own means. Yeah, that that was one of the I'm not gonna go on too long about this. But that was one of the fascinating things
that I realized, you know, about this book is still going on. Right now in 2020. People have been co opting the the story here of Winston and Oceania, for their own political gain, pretty much. I mean, like I said, earlier, I've seen Prager, you talk about this story. And they say, you know, the left is big brother. The right is Winston. I've seen cnn do stuff on it.
It's kind of like, you know, Martin Luther King, I've seen people that are completely on opposite sides of politics. And they say, Well, Dr. King would want if he was around, he would be ashamed of this. And he would like this. And then the other people say, No, he would like this. And he went like this. So I thought that was really interesting. Yeah, it's interesting. How ironic. Yeah, interpret it differently, you know, compared to, you know, maybe the way I took it, you know, that there is even an interview with Snowden that he actually said that the government is spying on us worse than the book.
I'm sure I mean, think about all the times, you know, you download something or you download an app, but it shows you the terms and conditions. And you just scroll to the bottom and press OK. And there was a great South Park episode about that. Yes. You always have to read the terms and conditions. That's for sure. But yeah, I mean, we all have our cell phones, it's unbelievable how much data we give, to, to apps to the government to companies every single day, without us having any problem about it. We don't we don't mind at all. We don't even realize, yeah, well, the reason is because it makes it so much easier. It makes our life easier. But they're listening all the time. I think that's that's that there's actually a really interesting little nugget in there. Because, you know, we talked about how the book is obviously a critique of governments. But I think it's also a critique of the people living in governments, you know, there, it's obviously not fair for them. When it's, you know, the government is corrupt, but the people themselves if you look at the characters in the book, what what was that guy that he loved to eat the the little meat cubes, and he popped up at the end, when Winston was going into room 101? Yeah, no, I know who you're talking about. Yeah. Well, his name isn't important. But I think that character was like the stand in for the rest of the actual normal people in the society. And my point here is that, you know, not everybody, I think Orwell is saying is like Winston, where they have that spark where they know something isn't right. I think, actually, what he's saying is most people in this in the society, kind of like what's going on. They don't mind giving up all these freedoms, they don't mind being watched.
They're pretty much complicit. Yeah, they're complicit. And they kind of want it even. And I don't know, that was one thing that was that hit very hard for me and during the book and made me it was kind of a burning little piece of satire. You did mention, they went to room 101 together and the characters Parsons.
And, you know, he seems like somebody that's totally okay with everything that's going on. He's excited to eat the terrible food. He's always excited to watch the screens and do their little exercises. But like that really annoying guy you meet at work that loves his job. And always perky and his kids, his kids are Junior spies. So they, they help tattle on people.
They love the idea of spying to people. Finding that someone is actually thinking something wrong, and catching them they live out of it. a little spoiler, so you can skip ahead. 10 seconds, but a Parsons, actually in his sleep, says he hates Big Brother, and he wants him to die. And his kids hear it. And so then he's sent away and then he's so sorry that that happened. He can't even believe he did that. And so he's actually thankful that he's being punished me. My daughter. Yeah, he can't even get mad at his own kid for doing that to him. And so you just really see how, how brainwashed. Yeah, that was, and he was asking them to help him. Yeah, he helped him go to through this. Yeah, rehabilitate him. Yeah, I'm sick.
Now, that was horrible. That was crazy. This book, definitely, like we said in the beginning, you know, if you haven't read the book, you've definitely seen it referenced and other things. You know, obviously, it's that classic dystopian future. And, you know, black mirror the show definitely has some episodes that remind you of 1984. And the book, brave new world is very similar to this book.
Like you said, handmaidens tale, but anyways, it definitely includes a lot of in dystopian fiction on the map. Yeah. And it actually created words like we said, Orwellian words. So you've heard the concept Big Brother, room 101. The thought police of thought crime, double think Newspeak and unperson memory holes. So
definitely, we've all heard that. So if you've ever heard that, that's where it came from. But it also influenced David Bowie's music, he actually wanted to do a musical production of 1984 but would have been awesome. But Orwell's widowed, refuse to give out the rights. We've all seen that famous commercial. It was it actually came out in 1984. When the Macintosh Apple's first computer was coming out, they said 1984 won't be like 1984 and they were kind of suggesting that because everybody had to use IBM PC. I mean, that was the right that was the first computer that was the main computer. Yeah, I can't believe Nikolas such an apple freak. And he had never heard of the commercial. I know so famous. Well
Again, it's not very maybe even even if I watched it before, like, when I was younger, It wouldn't even register my mind. Because I never read the book. I don't know what it meant, because it said that it will not be like 1984 Well, it's it's one of the most famous commercials over here. At least I took a little design, add class, and college once and they made us watch that. And, you know, it's just kind of ironic now that apples become so big and is probably involved in some of the surveillance stuff too. I mean, the least from the other companies. Yeah, we should say that.
The least. Yeah. But yeah, I just thought that was funny. I'm sorry, what, what else was? Well, and then obviously, they made a movie out of it in the 50s. But we all watch the movie that came out in 1984, where the rhythmix did the whole soundtrack for the album. I mean, for the for the movie. And so I thought personally, the movie was very similar to the book, I thought it captured that exact feeling. Definitely left a lot of scenes out. I know a lot out with O'Brien O'Brien. Yeah, you didn't, you didn't really get to him or get to see him towards the middle end of the movie. But um, yeah, I thought, you know, because usually, when a book has a movie made out of it, it doesn't really feel the same. You know, they leave too much out, or they completely changed the story. So I thought, this movie definitely did a good job. I have to agree with you. It was it was very straightforward. It was maybe two much straightforward that they have, of course, they had live some parts out, it makes sense. There is no time in a movie, to add all the details. But I think they should have concentrated more on O'Brian because it was a big part, a huge part of the book, the whole connection between O'Brien and Winston. It was a very interesting connection that they had in the way they spoke to each other. And, and what happened afterwards, between them. It was missing all of this was missing from the movie, but I have to say they sticked on the story. And I'm happy about it. We've seen quite a few movie adaptations of books at this point. And I think we, we all pretty much agree, they almost always fall short. Your game or, you know, way, way far away from what the book was. But this one, at least for me, it got the feeling. They didn't change it. And it was dark as the book. Well, maybe from this point on the podcast might get a little spoilery. So yeah, we're gonna discuss a little bit more and more open about the the book. So obviously, if you if you've read the book, the emotional climax is after Winston is caught with Julia. They've been having sex for quite a while. And they get caught. And they're both taken off to the Ministry of ministry of Love. captures man. That's the thought police. Yeah. And before they're separated, you know, they're in love with each other. And they say, they can't make me not love you.
The fact that they even feel love is Yeah, yeah, they kind of take it away from Yeah, so it's very idealistic. And you're kind of rooting for both of them. And I don't know, maybe I'm just naive. But when I when I got to that part was like, yeah, there's no way they're gonna make them not love each other. But they definitely do. yeah, you're right. Yeah. You were like, because Because actually, Winston, there is a line that he's saying to her that he was questioning it. He was like, they cannot make me not wanting you not loving you not, you know, they can make me forget you. And she was like, of course, of course they cannot do Yeah, of course. And I think if Yeah, once once they're captured, and they're trying to break down Winston and they're kind of describing what they're gonna do to him. And you know, he's, he's brought to that room. Or he's first torture. Yeah, he went through a lot. Yeah, first, he's tortured before he goes to room 101. And they're like, yeah, they're electrocuting him. And as he's being electrocuted. He shouts out, like, do this to Julia. Like, don't do it to me. Let her it's all her fault. And I guess it's so that wasn't when the rats came later. No, I think he didn't think about Yeah, it was at the end when they were electrocuting him. And that's what I think he stated that, but it's just so you know, not to get super deep here. But that's such a human thing to do. You just don't want anything bad that happened to you. You're not even thinking about the other person.
But he fought for it. You know, for quite a while. Yeah, but he went through a lot. Oh, that's the thing.
I think if if Orwell was a less ballsy writer, and if he was worried about selling this book to a wider audience, he would have gone for an ending where, you know, love conquered everything. And even though Winston was tortured, he still loved Julia, but he does take you to rock bottom and shows you when and where he's broken. And where he does, like you said, Rafi says, you know, take Julia instead of me. And that that was the the punch in the gut for me of this book. I remember, I was halfway in the book, and I turned to you. And I said, Well, I know what is gonna happen. And you told me, what do you think is gonna happen? And I said, Well, clearly he's gonna die. And you're like, Whoa, that's the worst thing. Yeah, that's exactly what you said that a worse things than that. Yeah, it would have actually been happier. I know. i kinda wish, he just died. Better. Yeah, to explain that.
You know, again, if you've read it, you know, he does live. He even meets Julia again. And the final scene of the book in this sad little Tavern where they're drinking, what was the name of the victory, Jen? Yeah, the victory, gin. Yeah. And they're both completely reprogrammed at this point. And they're just talking about how much they love big brother. And it's heartbreaking. But I wanted to go back, backtrack a little to this part where Winston was being tortured, because there was another
little dialogue between him and O'Brien there that I think was so important in the book, it was the two plus two equals five, right exchange, where they're just shocking him over and over again. And O'Brien is trying to take him to the point not where he's just saying, you know, two plus two equals five just to get the torture over with but to where he actually believes it. He was so confused to at the beginning, because he was O'Brien was asking him, two plus two equals, and he was saying, four, and he was getting tortured even worse. And at the end, I was just thinking like this a five. It's pretty simple. Yeah, that's what I would do. And he said, five, and he was like, No, you don't believe it? Well he made him believe it? Well, I mean, I think that was the part of the core of the message of the book there was, you know, not I want to talk about this later to the language, but not just manipulating language, but being able to manipulate what people actually believe. And that being the ultimate power that anybody can have any kind of government the most, one of my not the most famous, but like a very famous quote from the book is, but if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought. And so you realize that big brother is not you know, I guess, I mean, I guess he's a physical being, but he's not somebody that's like a giant monster that's gonna come and kill people and smite them with his strength. It's just this ideology, where that controls people, and that's really the weapon. Yeah, the weapon is that's the perfect word, it that they use to, you know, manipulate the people with abuse and with his language itself. Because language is, you know, what's the point of language, it's for,
you know, transmitting truth to people and meaning. And, and another thing in the book is this idea of double think, where it's two completely opposite words that come together. And so it just completely loses all of its meaning you don't even nobody really even understands what they're talking about. Because they shorten words. That's another thing. They it's almost like a not a slang. But, you know, they cut words in half, and then you just can't even remember what the original word even was. Yeah, still, they're so confused about, you know, even basic things in life like, man and woman and the idea of reproducing and having children which it's interesting because the people on the the right side of politics that I've I don't mean right, like, morally right. I mean, like, right Republican.
Those kind of people that I've seen co opting this book, they say that well, that's going on right now. Because, look, the left wing media is saying, trying to convince you family, the family, nuclear family, and man and woman don't exist. But uh, you know, whether or not that's true, I don't know. But you see this not just in, in politics, just in general with words. I mean, how many words that were used back in the day have completely, like their meaning is completely changed or words that have been invented.
slang or texting language, or Yeah, the whole goal of that language was to make it so sore like every they had the different
publications right the different years and stuff like the new publication of the dictionary kind of thing. Yeah. And you would see this when Winston talk to pretty much anybody in the book besides Julia. If you just notice the way they spoke like that guy with the who love to eat the meat cubes, since he Yeah, I'm trying to remember some of the actual little phrases he used. But he basically spoke like a monkey. He didn't. Yeah, he didn't use full on sentences. He just like said all these things that he would instead of saying like something tasted good or tasted great. He would say double good. Yeah. Or double plus, yeah, double plus. Yeah, that just yeah. Doesn't make sense to me, reminded me of text speak, and internet speak, where everything is things are literally being reduced down to symbols. Again, we're How about things that back then were, you know, there wasn't a problem with it? I don't have any, like specific example here. But just things that maybe back then meant something fine. Like maybe even like a bad word, I don't know. And then today, it's like, oh, my gosh, you can't say that. That's horrible. And it's just completely changed meaning or other way around, maybe it was something that was regarded as being very negative is now positive. Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I, I was I got from this book was, you know, obviously, how important languages, but I think it was from Orwell, kind of a love letter, love letter to language, which I clearly haven't even mastered. And
it made me think more about the way I speak, and what I'm actually trying to convey to people when I talk, and about the weight of words, and the real danger of other people, whoever they are, trying to mess with that, whether it's through censorship or, you know, just the blunting of actual conversation.
Yeah, I mean, you said, censorship, it's just in this book, you know, that's just shown, it's shown how, how horrible it is to, you know, delete people from history or, or change.
What kind of an impact they made in history. Cancel gold. Yeah. And so that, you know, reminded me personally, of canceled culture. And, you know, there's so many people right now that you don't even think about anymore, even if they were really important. Like, let's just take somebody like, Matt Lauer. I mean, he's been canceled for the right reasons. But it's just, it's weird to think that someone that was once revered, and on the news, and really well respected, has just been pretty much erased. I mean, you're never you're never gonna see Matt Lauer as a host of anything. I think this is the most impressive thing that George Orwell was able to predict to predict. Yeah, because everything else, the language and stuff, maybe he saw something from back then sensing as he was growing up, and maybe you say he got the idea from there. But this, it's technically exactly the same. You they don't kill you. They don't remove you they just change you. they just change you they ruin your life forever. And make you think that it's a good thing at the same time. Yeah. And everybody routes for it. I mean, it's it gets taken even further than someone like, you know, Matt Lauer. How about the removal of all the monuments lately? And, you know, they're rewriting textbooks for school, which again, we're not going to comment on whether that's good or bad. But it is something that you see. Yeah, you see, yeah, you see this today, and it definitely started in George Orwell's vision of 1984. So it just shows how ahead of his time, he really was. Well, that's why this this book was perfect for you know, first episode of The banned book club. Because really, at at the core, I think it's a book about censorship. It's the ultimate, ultimate anti censorship book. I don't know if you could read through this and by the end, not see how important it is to expose yourself to all kinds of ideas. Yeah, like, go ahead and read it, watch it and make a decision for yourself whether it's good or bad, you know, don't don't just do like they did with the two minutes hate where you just hate something without even opening it or looking into it, you know, kind of just look into it for yourself and make your own decision. Don't fall into the tribalism. Just you know, what everybody's doing around you what they think what they're angry at what they like and don't like. Use your mind to thing. Yeah, read. Don't let someone else like media or the government to to make you take the decisions that you want in life. Just think about it. read everything. Talk to everyone. And specially the people in the books and the art and the writing that makes you upset. Find out why it makes you upset. Make sure you have all the facts and then you can take a decision and make your argument about it. Well Thank you for listening check out our show notes and follow us on social media and you can find this podcast anywhere that you listen to your podcasts. And remember if a book is banned it's worth reading!