Mark Naunton - Shaping the Future of Pharmacy: Leadership, Scope and Workforce

Explore the leadership journey of Prof Mark Naunton, National President of the Pharmaceutical Society of Australia, as he shares his perspective on the future of pharmacy in Australia.

From growing up in rural Tasmania to leading the profession at a national level, Mark reflects on the experiences that shaped his career and the lessons that continue to influence his leadership approach today. This episode dives into the evolving scope of pharmacy practice, workforce challenges, and the expanding role pharmacists play across the healthcare system.

Gain practical insights into leadership, career development, and how pharmacists can position themselves to contribute meaningfully to the future of the profession.

In this episode:

• Mark’s journey from rural Tasmania to national pharmacy leadership.
• Key influences that shaped his career and leadership philosophy.
• The evolving scope of practice, including prescribing and expanded clinical roles.
• Workforce challenges and opportunities across the Australian pharmacy sector.
• The role of the PSA in advocacy, education, and shaping the profession.
• How pharmacists can prepare for future career pathways and leadership roles.
• Practical advice on lifelong learning, adaptability, and professional growth.

This episode provides a compelling look at the human side of leadership and offers listeners a clearer understanding of how individual experiences can shape the future direction of an entire profession.

You can find Mark Naunton on LinkedIn.

Do you have questions about your pharmacy career? Then contact us or meet our team.

Transcript

speaker-0 (00:01.026)
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Welcome to another episode of Your Pharmacy Career podcast. I'm your host, Krysti-Lee Patterson. And today I'm joined by Mark Naunton. Mark is the national president for the Pharmaceutical Society of Australia, but his career has also included working as an academic locum and consultant pharmacist across Australia in Tasmania, Northern Territory and the Australian Capital Territory. Mark, thank you for joining us on the podcast today.
 
speaker-1 (00:53.88)
Thanks Krysti-Lee, great to be with you.
 
speaker-0 (00:56.256)
Now Mark, when I speak to all my guests, always ask them the same question and that's why they became a pharmacist. Sometimes it's easy to answer that and others it's more of a bit of a journey. maybe you could share with us your reflections on what made you decide to be a pharmacist.
 
speaker-1 (01:15.96)
Thanks, Krysti. My answer is probably more of the journey response. I think it was something that I thought about early on in my life. I grew up on the farm, doing all the sort of things that young kids do on farms, on bikes, motorbikes, farm equipment, all that sort of stuff. And at one point would have loved to have been a stuntman, that sort of thing. Grew up playing lots of sport.
 
So definitely thought about, you know, sporting careers, lots of, I guess, good role models in the sporting sphere. But I guess I had to seriously start looking at what I would do when my parents sold the farm. And I grew up in an area of Tasmania that was economically pretty poor.
 
But I was fortunate to have parents that encouraged education and amongst other things. So I always was interested in school and I saw many sides of, I guess, health. I had a sister that went on to become a nurse. Her husband was a doctor. A grandfather that passed away from COPD. So I saw firsthand all the impacts that
 
long-term smoking had on him and was exposed to aged care early on in my life. I had pharmacists that lived on farms and lived up the road for me. And I actually, when I graduated and registered as a pharmacist, worked with four, one of those pharmacists. But I, you know, I explored different things. My brother was a paramedic and he also had his pilot license. I experimented by doing work experience with the Royal Flying Doctors.
 
speaker-0 (03:09.641)
wow, it sounds fun!
 
speaker-1 (03:11.16)
Yeah, that was interesting. I was probably more interested in the flying element. You know, the takeoff and landing are always the things that thrill me, probably like most pilots actually, but decided it wasn't probably for me that. I did go out with my brother when he was an ambulance officer and, you know, was exposed to drug overdoses, those sort of things that was piqued my interest a little bit with medicines, I think. had...
 
speaker-0 (03:15.704)
Yes.
 
speaker-1 (03:37.75)
school friends that experimented with drugs that probably piqued my interest in medicines as well.
 
speaker-0 (03:43.158)
I like how you said medicines there and not interest in drugs.
 
speaker-1 (03:48.3)
I was probably very deliberately there, Krysti. You know, you're always exploring different things. And I went to a careers expo and I walked through the door and at the local sort of town hall. And the first person sitting at the table was, there was no one around him, was the local chief pharmacist from the hospital. And incidentally, he also lived up the road from me on a farm. And so I had a chat to him and
 
It kind of sort of, told me just how many jobs there were. And like I said earlier, that, you know, growing up where I grew up was, there was high unemployment. Thanks to my parents selling the farm, there was fewer prospects of me becoming a farmer. So I decided to do pharmacy, I think around that point. And so went into sort of year 11 and 12, doing all the usual subjects that people needed to do to get into pharmacy, the chemistry and the maths, biology, and all those sort of things. did Japanese history. I was doing music.
 
And then in, I think it was year 12, I decided to go and do work experience at the Tasmanian School of Pharmacy, just to make sure that it was the right career path for me to see what I was getting myself into and then had a great experience. So I applied and had a phone call to say that I got in, you know, early in the new year when you got all your offers from university. so I was pretty relieved and then went to study.
 
in the mid-90s down at the University of Tasmania to study pharmacy.
 
speaker-0 (05:22.516)
Yeah, interesting. So it sounds like if I just pick out a couple key kind of interactions there, even just that one that you had when you went to the fair and there was the chief pharmacist there, think it's important that when students or young kids are considering what they're going to do for the rest of their lives, because that can be quite a daunting thing to do, to ensure that pharmacists are actually there when they're thinking about that. And I've worked for some
 
Pharmacies that do a similar thing where they will go and give presentations to like all high school students and things like that and it can really, yeah, it gives them an opportunity to see what pharmacists can do. So I think that's definitely something that if anyone's listening, yeah, reach out to your local schools. I think that would be a really great place to start.
 
speaker-1 (06:10.84)
agree with you, Krysti. Those people that you meet may not know it at the time, but they can have quite a profound impact on the direction you take. And I've seen multiple examples even just with people coming to study at the university where I work, where they've been exposed to open days or they've worked with pharmacists and that's directed them into studying pharmacy.
 
speaker-0 (06:33.102)
It really is very important, especially for depending on the area. Like you said, you grew up in an area that maybe was a lower socioeconomic area. And if they don't know anyone that's a pharmacist, like in I myself, I don't have pharmacist parents or pharmacist grandparents. I was the first pharmacist in my family. and if I hadn't seen what the local pharmacist can do in a rural area from my G, then yeah, who knows my life could have paved a very different path.
 
My key for helping rural Tasmania, Tasmania is fairly small compared to mainland Australia. So I've got this idea that in Tasmania, everyone knows everyone. Maybe it's the case, maybe it's not. But what are some of the things that you maybe saw or reflections that you've, you have on growing up in rural Tasmania and how has that impacted your work as a pharmacist?
 
speaker-1 (07:25.908)
Everyone does know everyone. It's a bit sad in some ways now because when I go back home and well not even when I go just back home but talk to particularly mum she's always telling me of the various people that have perhaps passed away that were my teachers or you know it's a small town so you kind of you do know people quite well even now many years after not living there. But yeah it was tough growing up in that area because of
 
things like the high unemployment rate. was a town that was, so we're talking about 20,000 and it was actually a city, they called it a city, but most people would laugh at that. anyway, 20,000 in the surrounding areas and I lived out of town for most of that. yeah, high unemployment. know, at one point it probably still is, it had one of the highest or the highest teenage pregnancy rates. There was high rates of cardiovascular disease.
 
often the usual things in country areas, regional areas with suicide and vehicle accidents, sort of things, know, social disadvantage. So, you for many people it was quite depressing. And just remember the, you know, that pivotal time when you're starting to think about careers and looking in newspapers to see that there's, you know, one job advertised. I think it was 30 to 40 % unemployment for youth.
 
Around that time, the major employment, which was the employer, the pulp mill. And that had closed down. So it just sort of put the unemployment rates quite high. So it was reasonably tough for people. And that's why education was so important for me, because there weren't many other opportunities in that area.
 
speaker-0 (09:19.374)
Yeah, that's, I was just reflecting on the impact of local industries in rural areas. And a lot of people don't know this about me, but I lived in Tasmania for a little while. My dad is a electrical engineer in the mines, but for a while there, we lived in Zien. So you would know. So it's a very remote, small town, not much going on there. So we lived there for a little while, but then that, I think it was a tin mine.
 
if I remember correctly, and it actually closed down because it was too dangerous, it was too deep. And so, yeah, we had to leave because there wasn't anything else for my parents to do in that town of Z.
 
speaker-1 (10:02.004)
No, I know that place well. It's not far from where I grew up, Krysti, I was in a place called Burnie. And a lot of people said, they probably still say that the best thing about Burnie was leaving it, which I think was a bit cruel. It's a beautiful spot.
 
speaker-0 (10:09.518)
Bye!
 
speaker-0 (10:19.478)
It really is. Yeah. I think I remember going there for a school excursion. think at some point. Now, if we fast forward a little bit more now into your working career as a pharmacist, maybe you could share a little bit about, yeah, your pharmacist journey post internship. Cause I guess everyone that's listening, they now know you as the PSA president and that sounds like, my gosh, PSA president. How on earth do you get that role?
 
But yeah, what were some of the things that you've done as a pharmacist to get to this point?
 
speaker-1 (10:53.902)
So I think my, if I just go back to the internship and I know that's not quite what you asked, I was very fortunate in my degree to do the internship as part of my degree and it involved four lots of seven week placements effectively. And so I got to experience community pharmacy, two community pharmacy placements in Hobart run with.
 
Kevin Morgan, who gifted me PSA membership as part of a thank you for helping him. Kevin was really important in shaping me as a pharmacist, as was Rhys Jones, who was the other pharmacist where I did my placement down in Hobart on the Eastern Shore. then I had the opportunity to two hospital placements. And one of those was
 
in Darwin and one was in Hobart and I was particularly keen to get to Darwin because my parents had been there many years before settling down in Tasmania so I was keen to go and experience some of the issues that they had seen and lived many years before me. So and that practice is relevant a bit later on but yeah I'd finished that and then I'd
 
worked in community pharmacy, really loved that and saw lots of problems that I wanted to solve and couldn't solve because of time and perhaps systems weren't set up to solve them. And I guess at the time there wasn't always the evidence to show that pharmacists were able to solve these things. If you looked around and I'd done a sort of finished honours degree just at the end of my pharmacy bachelor degree.
 
So during that time of working in community pharmacy, I then enrolled in a PhD to effectively try and demonstrate the value of what pharmacists could do largely in the community setting and primary care and continue to work in community pharmacy locum in and managing including one of the pharmacies that I...
 
speaker-1 (13:18.872)
for one of the pharmacists that I grew up in in Burnie. They were all really good experiences. Yeah, so I completed that PhD. That was probably the next chunk or next phase of my career, which I found really rewarding. Now people can get bit turned off by PhDs at times, but you do learn a lot of extra skills in a project management is probably one of them. Lots of opportunities to...
 
present your work and overcome any fear of talking in public, which many academics have that. I don't think I was any different to many people, know, it takes, it does take a bit of courage at times to do public speaking.
 
speaker-0 (14:01.212)
yes, do think it's just academics. think people in general, most people don't like doing that, I think.
 
speaker-1 (14:07.882)
And it really, you know, that time I was fortunate to tutor and pharmacy students. I was given a lot of opportunity by the staff down at the Tassie School of Pharmacy to tutor students. And I did have a parent that was an educator. And I think that it was probably within me from an early age. So I really enjoyed that element of it. Greg Peterson was my PhD supervisor and he was
 
and still is a great source of wisdom and support. He helped develop my writing skills, which by his standards, mine were probably pretty terrible. We'd probably say they still are, but yeah, that phase was really important for me in my career.
 
speaker-0 (14:56.256)
With the PhD, feel like, like you said, it was really quite rewarding. And I think a lot of people that maybe haven't had much to do with the academic side of pharmacy, the thought of doing a PhD, sounds like something that is probably out of reach. And if you don't do it straight away after doing your honours or something like that is there.
 
the opportunity for pharmacists to do PhDs later in their career? Is that something that's an option?
 
speaker-1 (15:30.67)
Absolutely. I think the greatest challenge for people sometimes is the time that is when there's cost of living pressures and there's not always scholarships for people to undertake that work that really limits that for some. So I don't think we as a country really address that issue. I really feel for PhD students that aren't able to work as a pharmacist.
 
speaker-2 (15:38.766)
quiet and in
 
speaker-1 (16:00.532)
and complete that work. I always encourage people who are interested in doing a PhD is to go and get your qualification and registration so you can at least earn professional wage while you do your PhD.
 
speaker-0 (16:17.39)
Absolutely. It certainly would help. I looked into it just to get some research and understand what is involved into doing a PhD. And yeah, I'll be honest, I was quite shocked at the, I guess, the lack of funding support. Unless you're lucky enough to receive a grant or something like that associated, yeah, it can be quite a large commitment. And I'm definitely not an expert. So it's just that from my...
 
Googling research and asking some people. But if someone was interested in doing a PhD and say they've been a community pharmacist, for example, they might feel, why would I need to do a PhD? Or maybe it's not for me because all I've done is being a community pharmacist. Is there still avenues for people like that to consider doing PhDs? Maybe part time.
 
speaker-1 (17:08.397)
If they spoke to me, they would be. You know, I think that we often see barriers when they're not necessarily there. If you've got someone there that's going to champion you, then, you know, there's always a way. you know, my workplace, I think, is really good in that regards. We're, you know, we're not so elitist, but, you know, you've got to have a GPA of X, Y and Z to get into these sort of things. I think.
 
speaker-0 (17:10.693)
great!
 
speaker-1 (17:35.928)
people that have got a passion and genuine interest, we should be trying to support them to do the work that they want to, even if they haven't got the highest grades. You you can build people up with the right supports in place. And that includes things like PhD. I think sometimes people overestimate what's required of a PhD. Often it's grit, determination, resilience, that sort of, those sort of characteristics. And you'll learn the other skills along the way. That's what it's there for. you,
 
effectively learning research skills.
 
speaker-0 (18:08.654)
Interesting. Well, there we go. there's any listeners that have thought, or maybe they might like to do one, they can heat you up after the episode mark.
 
speaker-1 (18:18.54)
And there's plenty of other people like me out there. They don't always have to come to me, but I'm always happy to point them in the right direction because it is an important thing to consider as well. And who you do your PhD with, you you've got to be able to get on with them. You're to spend some time with them over the next few years. So choosing your supervisor is important.
 
speaker-0 (18:39.37)
Exactly. And I guess I'm thinking about, like why I wanted to touch more a little bit on that PhD thing is because you made a comment earlier in our conversation around not having a lot of evidence for what pharmacists can do. And I guess in my mind, a PhD is something where you're finding evidence for this. So with, for example, like the full scope of practice that's happening now in pharmacy, where do you see, I guess, that where there's still some gaps and
 
What I'm meaning from this question is, from my perspective, the talk about full scope of practice for pharmacists is very heavily based around community pharmacy and all of the things that community pharmacists can do and will be able to do in the future. But pharmacy is so much more than just that as well. hospital and like, I can keep grappling with all the other areas. From your perspective, what are maybe some of the other areas of where pharmacists are not utilized to their full scope or to their
 
potential maybe.
 
speaker-1 (19:39.598)
Well, think that prescribing is one area that pharmacists can make an impact on patients and that spans many settings. So I think, you know, was some of the trials we've seen overseas, there's evidence overseas, it's nothing new. And in Australia, we saw those trials with the urinary tract infection. Now the world hasn't collapsed. been very good for patients to get that treatment when they need it.
 
but often pharmacists prescribing could involve ceasing medicines and timely access to those things is equally important. And, and I guess I see that particularly in, places like the aged care area where you may see patients that need their medicine stopped, but you know, the prescriber isn't available and they're the ones that can make the decision. But you know,
 
as a health professional, know that you could take that responsibility without harm coming to the patient. And I think that would be a great opportunity in terms of that pharmacist prescribing on top of some of the things that we're already more familiar with, I guess, through the scope training of pharmacists in the community pharmacy setting with some of those acute conditions.
 
have been trialled up in Queensland in particular. I guess de-prescribing is probably really, that's the buzzword.
 
speaker-0 (21:16.142)
Yes, I was about to say that, deep prescribing, just flicked a memory in my brain and then I just thought, Amy Page, she's been a big advocate for deep prescribing for a long time.
 
speaker-1 (21:28.64)
It's been in effect, know, this all this stuff's not new. mean, if you talk to pharmacists around for longer than I have, they were developing some of the evidence around approach prescribing years before for me. you know, it's taken a long time to get here and we're still not there.
 
speaker-0 (21:49.174)
Yes, but I think it's always, I guess, I'm just was going to use the term journey and it's funny because that was my year 12 topic for English. It was on journeys and yeah, it's always about the journey, not the destination.
 
So I can't believe that's still in my memory as well. So at least my English teacher would be happy if she was ever listening to this. So Mark, you've done like quite a broad range of things. So academia, you've also worked in like Northern Territory, ACT and Tasmania. When you reflect on that, those experiences that you've had, what are some of the things that kind of are still staying with you now?
 
and maybe have had an impact on you around maybe the inequalities or some of the things like I'm thinking like in Northern Territory, what they need to be really great pharmacists is very different to say a pharmacist in Canberra because of the maybe location, the lack of awareness, lack of support, lack of grants, things like that. What are the things that kind of stand out to you or that you still think of?
 
from your experience in say the Northern Territory compared to Canberra.
 
speaker-1 (23:09.25)
Good question. Workforce. When I was there, I moved there in the 2006-07 and workforce was an issue. It's still a big issue up there. So we can do many things as pharmacists, but if you don't have the workforce, then you aren't able to do those things. You're not able to implement those things. You're not able to...
 
start thinking about prescribing and doing things outside the normal day-to-day activities of a pharmacist. So I think our workforce is really important and I'm encouraged that our workforce is growing and I'm encouraged that there are more people studying pharmacy. There's been an uptick in people studying pharmacy. Certainly I've seen that across the country this year.
 
So I think that's probably one of the key things that people need. They need support, they need role models, they need the education and I guess that's part of that support structure that's really important if people are going to make the change. I'm encouraged that programs across the country now do prepare students really well for taking on these new roles that are starting to pop up.
 
and opportunities for them are are significant.
 
speaker-0 (24:39.63)
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Do you think that perhaps just thinking back to what we were talking about where if when people are growing up as kids and they see people that they can be wrong, look up to these role models, do you think where's the industry need to be?
 
going out to these remote areas and actually starting with the local children and showing them that this is potentially a career path for them. Because like you said, if they don't see that or consider that that could be something that they could do or achieve. And I mean, that's going to take some time for that to develop into the workforce. Like we're thinking the future here, but that's something that I think could be of really great benefit to especially those areas. Yeah, where.
 
That's so remote.
 
speaker-1 (25:40.596)
I think if you've got more people that can explain to others what pharmacists can do, and we still hear stories that pharmacists just put labels on boxes, that sort of traditional type of thing, and that sort of narrative has been around for a long time. But we have seen changes, as you get pharmacists moving into different areas, and that's why I'm a huge advocate for educating our students.
 
to the different roles because we need pharmacists not in the traditional roles, not just those traditional roles. We actually need them in other areas where they can influence and show the kids, whether that's primary school, high school, college kids, what pharmacists can do and to help others. And so that could be for some people, and I've spoken to pharmacists recently, having their pharmacy degree, working in pharmacy and then choosing to go and do an education degree.
 
they can be talking about medicines and so forth in schools. And what better person to be talking about medicines, illicit and legal, than a pharmacist, likewise in government. And I've seen many of our students from the university where I am, where the graduates have gone on to significant positions within government and are making, that can influence policy and so forth. I think
 
Wherever, you know, it goes to the heart of wherever there's medicines and medicine is discussed, you need the pharmacist because we are the medicine experts and it's not just about how a medicine works, it's the logistics, it's how they're developed in the first place, how they come onto the market, how they're distributed, how they're dispensed, what sort of advice, how they're prescribed, deprescribed, reviewed, all those sort of things, how they're monitored.
 
speaker-0 (27:35.502)
100%. And I'm just thinking I did a locum shift yesterday, actually in a pharmacy in Sydney. And I had to contact the hospital because there was an issue with them. Yeah. A discharge patient. I know transitions of care is something that is maybe not talked about enough or maybe it is being talked about, but there's always like a big.
 
push on a certain topic. for those that are listening, I'm going to use full scope in pharmacy, community pharmacy as an example, but you do have to ensure that the messaging is kind of clear in one spot, because that's how you can leverage policy change and actually promote this awareness to politicians and things like that. Because if you have, if you're talking about too many different things at once, it can be very confusing for people that aren't in the industry. But transitions of care.
 
I think he's one that is so frustrating to just see everyday pharmacists working on the grounds. this particular one, it took me 45 minutes and multiple, multiple calls to different people that were either unwilling or didn't know how to help. And finally I got onto the phone to someone that was helpful and understanding of the situation. And I don't know, what's your thoughts on these transitions of care and what can we do to maybe make this a little bit better?
 
speaker-1 (29:00.43)
I think that was one of the issues that I was seeing when I was working in, you know, regularly in a community pharmacy, know, weekends, Fridays, weekends, where I did a lot of my locum shifts. And that's that transition of care was part of part of the first part of my PhD, actually. And it was, you know, you know, it's a huge privilege to be able to go into someone's home. And, you know, it's it's quite eye opening for those that have health.
 
done it, they know exactly what I'm talking about. And some of the things we do is really not rocket science, but they can have quite significant impacts on people's lives. I remember as part of the research that I was doing, I went into one lady's home and she was one of those patients that bounced in and out of hospital with various things, including a heart failure. no one, you know, that she went into hospital, they sort of adjusted doses, typically the diuretics and
 
and then sent her home and then she'd come back in and she lived by herself. And when I visited her, what became very obvious to me after talking and then looking at what she was doing with her medicines was she actually didn't know how to use her dosage box. And so she was just taking the Monday morning dose one day, then she was taking the lunchtime dose the next morning. So she was just taking one part of the one section of the box each day. And so it was no, it wasn't
 
It was very obvious why she was bouncing in and out of hospital because she wasn't always getting the medicines that she needed at the right time. And once that she was educated and we had some community nursing go to her house as well, she had no readmissions to hospital. It was day and night with that one and were lots of different examples with post discharge issues, people taking two doses.
 
So two brands of the same medicine and yeah, some of it was incredibly dangerous what you were observing or what I was observing. So that stuff still goes on. I've still done HMRs where people have those sort of issues. They get confused with all the different boxes and brands and yeah, so that post discharge.
 
speaker-1 (31:19.608)
problems were recognised a long time ago in the 90s and here we are in 2026 with the same issues, probably a lot worse because we've got even more medicines and anyway, I'll probably start getting a bit too passionate about this area in a minute.
 
speaker-0 (31:32.95)
No, this is good.
 
speaker-1 (31:35.018)
It's people that are doing the home medicine reviews totally get where I'm coming from.
 
speaker-0 (31:39.864)
Well, maybe this is something that maybe more pharmacists need to think about is becoming HMR accredited. I think about the central west, New South Wales, where I spent a lot of my career in, there was only like one HMR pharmacist and that was servicing such a huge area. But at the time, a lot of pharmacists, even myself included, I decided not to do it because I didn't really see the value in doing the HMR course.
 
And I feel bad by saying didn't say the value because obviously from a patient perspective, is value, but the time and effort and money and not getting enough referrals. So it do you think that pharmacists should be considering becoming accredited in being awarded to LibreLeaf services?
 
speaker-1 (32:28.2)
short answer is yes. And I'll let you in on a secret though, Krysti, that when I did my home medicine review as part of the part of my PhD, I wasn't accredited at that stage. And so we have to, I guess, let pharmacists know that, you know, they can do this work. As I said, some of it's not rocket science. Some of it's just taking the time to listen and to talk to the patient and to use
 
the generic skills that all students should learn at university and then through their internship to help people with their medicines. Yeah, some of it can get more complex, there's no doubt about it, but at the same time, many of these issues are not necessarily complex. So I'd encourage everyone to consider doing the medication review courses because you can really make a huge difference in people's lives.
 
speaker-0 (33:25.134)
And that's especially things like, like that dosage box. sounds so obvious and so simple, but it has a huge impact on that person's life. And I was just thinking, like, sometimes you'll get a call from your patients and they'll say, I don't want to get my delivery of Webster's this week because I've got about six of them at home. And you think, what are you not taking them? What's happening there? And it's yeah, definitely then this situation where perhaps a
 
home medicine review would certainly help. so yeah, it's just maybe taking time to when you hear those little stories like that, just spending that little bit more time or maybe reaching out to the GP to ask for a referral.
 
speaker-1 (34:07.522)
Look, I could talk about this all day. had a, there's one that sticks in my mind within the control group from the study that I did. this chap, Amy O'Drone, he was given a loading dose from the hospital and you know what the dose is, 200 milligram three times a day. And he was readmitted to hospital a few weeks after he was still taking 200 milligrams three times a day and he developed toxicity and died. And again, it was another
 
you know, pivotal moment for me where you saw firsthand the consequences of when people don't take their medicines correctly. He was discharged with clear instructions. You know, it wasn't like he wasn't educated at discharge, but if he perhaps had had a follower that could have been prevented.
 
speaker-0 (34:59.246)
And you think about if you're listening, if you've ever been discharged from hospital, when you're sitting in that discharge ward and they sort of tell you what you need to do, what you need to know, all you're thinking about is getting home and having something to eat most of the time. So they're probably not in the, even they can be highly intelligent people that should be able to understand, but they're frame of mind is not in a position to be able to receive information at that point in time.
 
speaker-1 (35:25.974)
The other thing that was really important for me to understand was going to one lady's house and she had been discharged and she was completely overwhelmed because she had, you know, multiple chronic conditions. And during the hospitalisation, they're seen by multiple doctors and multiple allied health people and everyone's giving them information. So they come home with wads of paper.
 
and information, which if their literacy is low, that's a problem. But even if their literacy is high, they're not always well enough to take it all in, as you said. And medicines can be incredibly helpful, but used in the wrong way at the wrong time can be incredibly dangerous, which goes back to that point of that post-discharge sort of transition of care period. We know that's a highly risky time.
 
we should be using the experts, i.e. pharmacists, to manage and help people with their medicines because we know how important they are to help them, but how incredibly dangerous they can be if not used correctly.
 
speaker-0 (36:37.342)
Yeah, exactly. That's the thing. They can be very dangerous if not used correctly. Now, Mark, we've been chatting for a little while now and I feel like, yes, the passion is definitely coming through with the transitions of care. So we could probably have a whole dedicated podcast episode on that in the future. But now I just would like to ask you, you're now in the position of PSA president. What does that mean for you personally and
 
I guess now getting to know you a little bit more now and understanding what led you to get to where you are. think it's great that you've got these really great experiences across both metropolitan, academic, local, regional, rural. you do have that experience, but yeah, what is, I guess, your vision and what are you going to bring to the presidency?
 
speaker-1 (37:30.322)
I think there's a few ways or a few things there, Krysti, and think PSA is going through change at the moment. So there's some short term things that I want to bring. And the first thing is, as I'm sure many people will be aware, we've acquired the college, the ACP, and any integration sort of work is not always easy.
 
So a focus for me is ensuring that work gets done and is done as seamlessly as possible. I guess that's one of the focus for me, a focus for me. It's also working on the Pharmacy Program Agreement for PPA. So that's with a number of programs, including some of the ones that we've spoken today with home medicine reviews and RMRs and...
 
ACOC and those sort of things. that's really important for not just patients, but some of our members who work in those roles and particularly some of our regional rural pharmacists. So having that background, I am passionate about that. I want to make sure that they feel supported. I guess actions speak louder than words.
 
So I certainly feel the pressure on in that regards and that's okay. You know, there's I'm privileged to be in the position and and I take the responsibility Seriously, so they're they're two key things for me naturally there's the scope of practice that's evolving and with that comes education and so PSA is is a provider of education we support
 
pharmacists wherever they are with education. I'd like to think that over the coming months that that is also a focus. It's not just like to think it will be a focus over the coming months to strengthen our education, respond to feedback. And so for me, it's also listening to pharmacists, both members and non-members. I'd like to grow our membership. I'd like to find out
 
speaker-1 (39:52.642)
for those people that aren't members, what do we need to do to make them become members? You know, I grew up with the idea that every pharmacist should give back to their profession, give back to their professional society, and that was PSA. You know, you don't always know what the society is doing for you, but I can assure you and the listeners that there's an incredible amount of work that goes on behind the scenes for all pharmacists wherever they're working. So I'd like to...
 
think that we could grow our membership and people do see the benefit of being a member of our society. Sorry, I'll spit that out, society.
 
speaker-0 (40:31.08)
That's okay.
 
speaker-1 (40:32.622)
help establish and grow some of those pathways for pharmacists in their career, continue with developing the evidence base for what pharmacists can do to improve people's lives. They're all key priorities and in interest for me.
 
speaker-0 (40:51.47)
all very important. So it sounds like it's a big job.
 
speaker-1 (40:55.566)
I don't think it's a small job. But there's some great people around that are doing the work. It's not just me.
 
speaker-0 (40:57.663)
No, that's it.
 
speaker-0 (41:03.95)
Yes, in some ways that's a good thing, disrespect Mark, but I think yes, having a great team behind you means that you can get a lot done. And I think that is actually a really interesting point that you make Mark about also the non-members and understanding why they're not members. And I think that is something that I've always thought that sometimes, I guess that what I'll call a general pharmacist. So why make people that aren't.
 
maybe you're aware of what goes on behind the scenes and it's not really until you are in a position to see what goes on behind the scenes that you think, wow, okay. They actually are doing a lot for me in these other areas as well, but maybe you just don't hear about them. And that's again, what I said earlier around when you are a large organization like the PSA or the Guild or however, in any industry, you do have to be strategic on what you're talking about publicly.
 
so that you don't dilute that messaging. So sometimes it might feel like you're just faking on about one particular thing, but there is still work going on behind the scenes in all the other areas as well.
 
speaker-1 (42:10.902)
Yeah, and we've got to tell people what we're doing as well. we've got to, the work that we do has to be relevant for people as well. So there's no point doing work that, and advocacy for work that actually doesn't deliver to your members. So you've got to, you know, you've got to listen to feedback, you know, something that has always, I've always had that advice from people is listen.
 
and they'll tell you what your problems are and where you need to focus. It doesn't mean that they're always right, but if you hear it enough, they might be telling you something.
 
speaker-0 (42:48.27)
Well, this is a good segue actually, because my last question for you was to ask what advice you would give to pharmacists or future leaders. And I think listening is a good one, unless you've got any others up your sleeve.
 
speaker-1 (43:02.638)
Listening, that advice has been given to me multiple times. My grandfather used to give me many pieces of advice, he used to write letters to me. Listen, manage your finances, was another piece of advice. First with your head, then with your heart was another piece of advice that he wrote to me. I think that's, you know, really about, you know, stopping and thinking before acting and, you know, slowing down.
 
Don't always be impulsive. Sometimes you have to be. You have to be adaptable. people often say yes, always say yes. I'm not necessarily a big fan of that. I think it's okay as long as you know that you may need to say no to something else. And that sort of gets to the heart of not taking on too much.
 
You've got to know when to say yes and you've got to know when to say no because if you say yes to everything then nothing becomes a priority in my view. So say yes to everything with caution. It would be some advice that I would give. Read widely. That's been advice to me from my dad over when I was a kid. I probably didn't always listen to him when I was a kid around that.
 
speaker-0 (44:27.69)
same with you so obviously
 
speaker-1 (44:30.094)
I give it to my kids that advice now and one son does and the other one doesn't. Education is so important. You can't stop educating yourself. And my grandfather used to say, you know, get your piece of paper. You know, once you've got it, you can do with it whatever you like with it type of thing. So I think that is really important advice that stayed with me. We're always, you know, we're always students of something.
 
And I always think that knowledge can open the door that effort alone, you know, can't unlock. So you've got to have the effort and you've also got to have the knowledge which comes down to the education, I guess. So there are probably some key pieces of advice. I mean, I'll probably give plenty of other advice as well. But I guess the other thing is just, you know, keep a good sense of humor. I think humor is a great way to diffuse any
 
that you might have any stress and I use it a lot in my own workplace as well as at home. I also think that when you laugh, it unlocks learning as well. So I think humour is important in what we do. You can't take life too seriously, especially at this juncture in time.
 
speaker-0 (45:52.116)
Exactly. No, very important advice. Lots of take away messages there actually, Mark. And I will just touch on the one about the saying yes with caution. I think that's a very good one because if I even just reflect on myself, I'm that type of person that wants to do everything now, achieve everything now. And I think a lot of people in my generation are saying we've kind of feel like we've, yeah, we have to get all these things done now before we...
 
reach a certain age or whatever reason. But yeah, if you are going to be saying yes to opportunities or doing things, yeah, what's the thing that you may be gonna put down or maybe step back from so that you can give the best of your ability to whatever that opportunity is. And I know in the past I've said yes to too many things and then it dilutes your ability to do things well. And so then sometimes stepping back from things.
 
People might not understand it at the time, but it means that you can actually give more of yourself and make more of a difference in those areas. And it doesn't even have to necessarily be work related, even just thinking about, or if you are going to take on things in the industry, it's going to take your time away. Then that's going to take time away from friends and family and things like that as well.
 
speaker-2 (47:13.932)
Yeah.
 
speaker-1 (47:14.968)
Being busy is not the same as being productive. And for the academics out there, because academics love the CVs, if you're saying yes to things, you've got to open your CV up and start thinking about what you're going to cross off.
 
speaker-0 (47:29.454)
I like that. Yes. I love that. But I think, yeah, it's good advice. It's really important to make sure that you do try new things and look for other opportunities, but doing it mindfully so that you can give it your best shot.
 
speaker-1 (47:45.294)
you know, have courage, know, we pharmacists know a lot, they can do a lot, but as a group, we tend to be risk averse and I think trying to get rid of that fear is important.
 
speaker-0 (48:00.302)
Absolutely. Well, thank you Mark for joining me today. Did you have any final comments before we wrap up?
 
speaker-1 (48:08.814)
I feel like I should, Krysti, and final comments. I think I've given a lot of last minute tips there. Look, there's probably harder things people have done. If they think things are hard, they've probably done harder things. So, you know, if they're in any self doubt about themselves, they can do it. I would say that is some last sort of parting advice. And, you know, people have said, sure, that, you know, often the start is often the hardest part.
 
Once you get started, then things become a little bit easier. Take small steps, all those sort of things. I think it is good advice. And failure is just sort of a message of learning really. So don't take failure as in a negative way. Learn from it and you'll come back stronger. If you're ever in that situation, we've all failed things at different times and there's nothing wrong with it. educate yourself as much as you can because your future will
 
Thank you for.
 
speaker-0 (49:09.454)
Exactly. Well, thank you, Mark. And if I can just wrap up a few key reflections from our conversation, think that's education is number one, but always be learning. And the other thing is to almost, I think, be very mindful of learning from everything around you. So we talked about education and getting a piece of paper, but the other thing is you can learn a lot from the people around you and
 
I think if you're sort of listening to those people to use one of your words listening, you'll also learn a lot more and grow in yourself as well.
 
speaker-1 (49:49.174)
Yeah, totally. Absolutely.
 
speaker-0 (49:51.854)
Well, thank you so much, Mark. Thank you to our listeners for joining us and I'll have all of the information on Mark and the PSA in the show notes. And so if you would like to contact Mark or have any questions about the PSA, you can reach him through the information on the show notes. Thank you again for joining me, Mark. Thanks for tuning in to Your Pharmacy Career Podcast, proudly sponsored by the Pharmaceutical Society of Australia.
 
speaker-1 (50:10.872)
Thanks, Krysti.
 
speaker-0 (50:19.468)
PSA is committed to empowering pharmacists through advocacy, innovation and industry-leading professional development. Become a member or learn more about how the PSA can support your career, visit www.psa.org.au. Don't forget to subscribe, share this podcast with your colleagues and join us next time as we continue to explore your pharmacy career journey.