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Joshua Hoffert
Hey there, Voices from the Desert Listeners. This is one of your co-hosts, Joshua Hoffert. And I just wanted to take a second to let you know about an upcoming training event that I'm hosting called The Dreams You Dream. It's a look at the biblical basis for dreams. There. Interpretation. Their meaning, their significance. Will be hosted over six weeks starting July 19th.

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Joshua Hoffert
And as of the publishing of this episode, that's next week. You can find more information about that at the Wind Training Academy and we'll be linked in the episode description. So we would love to see you there. That's Wednesday, July 19th. And take a look at it on the link there. And without further ado. Onto the podcast.

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Murray Dueck
Hey, everybody. Welcome to Voices from the Desert.

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Joshua Hoffert
Desert. Taser, Taser! Taser!

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Murray Dueck
It has to be in there, even though I'm getting a sheep in.

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Joshua Hoffert
There every time I saw it. All kinds of sheep. Dog one. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

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Murray Dueck
And welcome to come back. Thank you. That you keep coming back. And I am Murray Duke of San Mandel with my good friend and founder of this actual podcast Josh offered of by.

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Joshua Hoffert
Founder.

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Murray Dueck
Wind Ministries.

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Joshua Hoffert
By founder he means the man who asked me to do a podcast.

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Murray Dueck
That's right. And he actually does all the all the production stuff behind the scenes because I just talk.

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Joshua Hoffert
You talk, you're going to talking.

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Murray Dueck
So I am going to.

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Joshua Hoffert
Ask you to do a podcast because I thought you do the production stuff.

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Murray Dueck
That Well, that's nice of you because I would screw it up, but I'd be really better. We went for a run yesterday. Jay and I are getting ready for this half marathon. Oh, yeah. So we got to run.

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Joshua Hoffert
We run in that.

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Murray Dueck
Yeah. So we did like seven, 13.7, seven kilometers. And the reason we didn't get 18 was it was like pitch black for an hour because I was like, No, we got time. SANCHEZ It sets at eight. We're going to leave it 6 to 8. You know, it'll be fine. And was I wrong? I like that We're at a dirt road in the middle of nowhere.

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Murray Dueck
Oh, it was horrible. And Jesse had to come get us, Ed, because I just screwed up. I screwed up the production, Right?

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Joshua Hoffert
Right. Well, just the.

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Murray Dueck
Good that I'm not. Dude, production.

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Joshua Hoffert
We were just when Murray and I were, and I got together today, we were just looking at the. The different statistics for the podcast and who's listening and where they're at and what city they're in and what country. And and so we know that just under half of our audience is in America, right? And so for for the record gives just for the American we well that's because you're Canadian so I don't forgive you because I'm American just didn't right So so for our American audience 17 it was 17.7 kilometers because I saw your.

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Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah, yeah. You're going to have to.

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Joshua Hoffert
Sell your sell your social media up. Oh, you.

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Murray Dueck
Did.

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Joshua Hoffert
So that's just that's about a ten or 11 miles, ten plus miles. So that's for our Americans there. Murray did a ten mile run and took his wife into the middle of nowhere.

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Murray Dueck
I did where we kind of live in the middle of nowhere. Everybody just. That's true. Yeah. So, like, I drove right out of the car and abandoned her. It's like, no, we ran up the road and we ran so far that we got caught in the dark up up the hill like.

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Joshua Hoffert
No zombies chasing you.

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Murray Dueck
There are bears right there. I don't think you're out yet, but I did see a marmot.

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Joshua Hoffert
Okay, that's. Well, you know, maybe in the wrong context, A marmot could be scary, I guess. Yeah.

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Murray Dueck
Yeah. So. But yeah, so it's. I'm going to buy her new runners today, so I'm going to make it.

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Joshua Hoffert
Oh, you'll make it up as humility. That's good.

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Murray Dueck
And making up for our topic.

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Joshua Hoffert
That is our topic.

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Murray Dueck
So yeah, speaking of so we're you know thinking of, you know, I think by this point you've probably heard a couple of our podcast we did on Dreams, so we took a big deep breath. But, but again, in context of, of what we've done up until now, we've really been talking about the oasis again, this desert father thought of and Josh can fill me in because I always forget who says as I always think it's Justin martyr but it's not it's like Ignatius.

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Joshua Hoffert
Around Irenaeus is as your.

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Murray Dueck
Erin is God became man to man could become God. Yes right.

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Joshua Hoffert
That.

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Murray Dueck
Is that Irenaeus.

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Joshua Hoffert
Is right. EARNEST Yeah.

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Murray Dueck
So, you know, 8150 and and one of the aspects we're not talking about becoming a deity and ruling a planet. We're coming talking about this nature of God image and humility is one of the things in the very heart of the nature of God that we need to gain if we're going to become like him, this whole becoming, which again is the oasis.

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Murray Dueck
And so today we really want to talk about about humility and what it is, because in our in our Western kind of Protestant, charismatic thinking and kind of how the early church really saw that there are some pretty big nuances here that that are very, very different. And and Josh has been, again, you know, looking into this and looking through the desert father.

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Murray Dueck
So I'm going to kick the ball right back over to him and let him dig a hole that I will help shovel him out of because I'm just so humble here.

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Joshua Hoffert
Just because he is so humble. Yeah, that's right. Well, you know, I think just just a couple of things for context, right? When we're looking at scripture that obviously humility is the way of Jesus and that's that is 100% without argument. And that's perfectly summed up in the language of Philippians two. Right. Let this mind be in you.

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Joshua Hoffert
That was in Christ Jesus.

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Murray Dueck
That's right.

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Joshua Hoffert
Equality with God, a thing to be grasp, but rather emptied himself and took on the form of a servant. So we look at right within the the the incarnated godhead, right in Jesus, in right in the incarnation of God is the perfect picture of humility. And this reminds me too, I was just I just came back from a three day retreat with a group of leaders that I walk with closely at a Catholic monastery.

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Joshua Hoffert
And I was having a conversation with one of our evangelical leaders and pointing out the Catholic cross over against the Evangelical cross. And this is a point that Mary's made a number of times on her podcast, The Catholic Cross and the Orthodox Cross, for that matter, typically are pictured with the crucified Messiah hanging on the cross over against the in the evangelical church, the cross is typically empty.

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Joshua Hoffert
And in the evangelical church, the the emphasis is on the resurrection, right? That that the cross is no longer on the cross. Right. He's been resurrected.

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Murray Dueck
God's not dead.

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Joshua Hoffert
He's alive. Our God. There's the popular songs. Our guys aren't dead. He's alive. Yeah, popular songs, popular phrases. And which is true. You know, it's an accurate representation. That's not it's not untrue. But the reason why the Messiah is shown hanging on the cross in the historical traditions is because that's the image of God that we're presented with.

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Joshua Hoffert
Is this perfectly this picture of perfect humility is the willingness to die, the willingness to lose his life for the people that he loves. Complete humility doesn't even consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, but empties himself takes on the form of a servant. And then ultimately, Philippians two says the outworking is death on the cross.

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Murray Dueck
And that's really important everybody to get, because again, you know, we're quoting back to a conversation I had with Father Michael Long time ago, which, you know, just as as rightly given its points. But but let's just throw in there super quickly. Is, you know, what? What does God look like? He looks like Jesus. Right? Right. If you've seen me, you've seen the father.

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Murray Dueck
But then God, the father, if you think about this. Yes, he's reigning on a throne. Yes. He's the creator of the universe. Yeah, all that stuff. It doesn't take away from that. But what we see of Jesus on the cross, God looks like that. Humility, meekness, patience, forgiveness, long suffering. We're looking at Jesus on the cross, the nature of the Godhead, which is, you know what Joshua is saying?

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Murray Dueck
Philippians says it's a create. And that's why it's important to have that image as well. You know.

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Joshua Hoffert
So if you if you think about humility from a biblical perspective to a great example outside of Jesus, obviously being the the ultimate example is, is Moses. Right. Who was called the most humble man.

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Murray Dueck
Right? Yeah. And then And then yeah. Then he wrote it himself though and.

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Joshua Hoffert
He wrote under that. Yeah. Well I don't know that there's any in-between between if you write that statement between radical arrogance or radical humility, you know.

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Murray Dueck
That's right.

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Joshua Hoffert
It's either one or the other.

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Murray Dueck
You could probably back it up so he could write it and then back it up. So then if you can back it up.

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Joshua Hoffert
I think he probably did back it up when, you know, thinking practically when the the nation of Israel was railing against him and he didn't even argue with them, He went straight to God. Right. And he just said these these people are railing against me. Right. He didn't he didn't defend himself, which was a picture of the humility of Jesus, who didn't defend himself when he was accused.

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Joshua Hoffert
Right.

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Murray Dueck
And I often wondered about Moses. I just got to throw this out because go for it. I've often wondered what Moses, his reaction was when, you know, he's up on the mountain getting the Ten Commandments. He comes down course golden calf thing, blah, blah, blah. All these things happen. And finally God says, That's it. 40 years in the desert.

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Murray Dueck
You're not getting into the promised land. I want. I never thought about Moses response. Like what? You mean I got to lead these guys for another 40 years.

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Joshua Hoffert
I didn't even get in.

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Murray Dueck
Yeah, we're supposed to go into the Promised Land. I'm done. My job's over. I have seen what he was like. Oh, yeah, they're right.

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Joshua Hoffert
Right, right. Yeah, Maybe, maybe, maybe that's.

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Murray Dueck
Why. Is it more humble? Because he did it.

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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right. I love. I love the picture of Moses. He. He in terms of looking at humility and. And because. Because his the the you know, not he doesn't respond like I like I said, he doesn't respond to the accusation from the, the leaders who come against him, but he takes it to God and and prays and asks God, you know what to do.

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Joshua Hoffert
God says separate these people and you know, God, God's on who backs them up. Right? So so we see the same disposition in the heart of Jesus, right. Who's railed against by the leaders of the nation, who doesn't consider it even a thing to defend himself or to rail back against them right. So he he's beaten, he's spat upon all this stuff.

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Joshua Hoffert
And he doesn't he doesn't even consider responding in kind at all. And so this is, again, this picture perfect humility. And so we see it also a semblance of it in the life of Moses. Right. So but here's here's some of the interesting things about Moses, and we'll tie this all in to what the some patristic stuff and what the desert fathers had to say about humility, because that's kind of where we'll go with it.

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Joshua Hoffert
Moses In Exodus 33, he has this dialog with the Lord and he says, You have said to me, Oh Lord, I have known you by name. And I found favor in your sight. All right, So if this is the case, he says, Show me your glory. No, he says, Go before him. Go before us and lead us. Right.

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Joshua Hoffert
There's there's three things he asks of God in Exodus 33. And I'm just going to make sure I get it right. So I'm going to look them up really quick because.

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Murray Dueck
Yeah, you don't want to be want to go online.

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Joshua Hoffert
Once it's online, it's there forever. So. So he says, If I found grace in your site, show me your ways that I might know you. That's the first one. That's right. Show me or ways that I might know you. And then he says, Let your presence go with us. Right. Okay. Let your presence go with us. And then after.

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Murray Dueck
The Lord says, I will go with you, and Moses goes, No, you need to go with us.

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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right. Exactly. That's basically it. Yeah. And then. And then he says, Show me your glory. So I remember John Paul Jackson used to say in the charismatic church, the modern, charismatic church, we flipped those around. Show me your glory is the first thing, right? Yeah. Then and then lead us is the second kind of consideration. And the last consideration might be show me your ways and I might know you.

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Murray Dueck
And yes, I would think that's true. I got the glory. I can do all these other things. That's right. You know, if I get led, that's great.

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Joshua Hoffert
If I know God, who's God? Right? Anyway.

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Murray Dueck
Give me the power.

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Joshua Hoffert
Go, Moses. Show me your way that I might know you. And remember, this is Moses, who at this point, he's been up on the mountain. He's led the people, he's held the staff up. He's seen great things. He saw the plagues of Israel or the place in Egypt. He saw the the burning bush. All this stuff, right? Show me your way that I might know you.

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Joshua Hoffert
So a tacit confession that he feels like he doesn't know God, even though he's seen all this crazy stuff.

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Murray Dueck
Yeah. Wow.

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Joshua Hoffert
So. So show me your way that I might know you. So then, if we fast forward to the moment, like you said, Moses goes through the wilderness and he's. He's on the cusp of the promised land, and he's not going to go in. And God chosen the Promised land says you're not going to go in there and, and Moses says this this is in Deuteronomy eight or five or something like that.

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Joshua Hoffert
He has this conversation with God. And what he says is now Moses is, you know, this is on the, you know, the 38, 39th year in the wilderness, something like that. So this is you know, Moses is like 115, 120, something like that, Right? He's up there in age. He's seen some stuff. Right. And he says this at the end of his life.

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Joshua Hoffert
He says, oh, Lord, you have begun to show your servant your greatness. You know, I love you have begun, right? So this is that. This is the this is the the not pride, the the humility of Moses, right? Not not I know it, all right. Because he could claim divine privilege. He's seen more things. He even said of him that he's a prophet like no other who has no equal.

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Murray Dueck
Yeah.

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Joshua Hoffert
So he claims no divine privilege in being known by God and the position and status that He has. But you've just begun to show me your greatness. And this kind of language is echoed in the desert.

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Murray Dueck
Fathers absolutely have begun to repent.

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Joshua Hoffert
I've just. Yeah, I haven't even begun to make a start of repenting. One doesn't. Father says at the end of his life.

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Murray Dueck
Yeah, I remember that. I don't know who it was, but, yeah.

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Joshua Hoffert
I think it was Pombo. But I could be wrong with that.

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Murray Dueck
But he's about to go to heaven. Everybody knows God's shown them. He's like, leaving today, and yet he's. He's repenting. Like, Why are you doing that, Father? You have no need. You're leaving today? That's right. Like, I have just begun.

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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that kind of that kind of ethos is very common in the desert Fathers. So Moses, Moses, one of the very first pictures of humility we see in Moses, right, is when Moses says he can't speak the way that he would want to speak. Right. You know, he says he says to God, God says, I'm going to send you back to your people.

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Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah.

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Joshua Hoffert
Moses has left 40 years in his own wilderness and he's been tending the sheep and everything, right? And he sees the burning bush and God says, I'm going to send you back. And he says, I can't talks and someone else, and I'll let Aaron go with you. Right? He'll be your vote. Your spokes. Your spokes. Yeah.

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Murray Dueck
I have some thoughts on this.

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Joshua Hoffert
So my whole point in saying that and I want to memories, thoughts. But my point in saying that is that Moses is responsive. Humility only comes in contact or in context of contact with the humble God.

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Murray Dueck
Yeah.

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Joshua Hoffert
So he has an encounter with the humble God and he immediately has a humble response. Why so not? Moses was already humble, but Moses encounters the humble God and has a humble response. And then that that I'll I would, you know, hazard a guess and you'll see where we're going with this whole conversation. Is that the reason Moses could claim that he was the most humble man was not because he practiced humility, but because the the he was touched by something outside of himself that began to work, humility in him.

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Joshua Hoffert
That's a totally different context. Right.

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Murray Dueck
So that's that's the big thought here that is, you know what I'm going to before I give my big thought, because it's a little bit off topic. Not really, but a little bit.

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Joshua Hoffert
Well, we can keep going with this. Okay.

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Murray Dueck
Because podcasts are a lot of wander all the heck all over the place and you don't need to.

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Joshua Hoffert
You know, nobody nobody told me that. That's not what podcasts do. Just let them keep doing that.

00;17;34;24 - 00;17;58;21
Murray Dueck
Oh man, I like a sermon, but I'm going to read you this one quote by the Duchess. Dad, Duchess, I thought, okay. Or for Cookie, never. Just in regards Moses, What what, what Josh just said there, it's like something is working in him after having this encounter with a humble God, right? Instead of it's something. It's not just something we do.

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Murray Dueck
Now, I'm going to be humble and I'm going to take, you know, but it's something that's working within you. So and here is Dado just he probably lived about 600 A.D., maybe somewhere in there, some part of Greece way back in the day. And now he's talking about himself here. I know of a man meeting him who loves God so much that his inability to love him more is his greatest affliction.

00;18;24;07 - 00;18;42;16
Murray Dueck
His incessantly ardent desire is that God be glorified in himself while he should be as nothing. So. Okay, well, let's just keep going before we break that down. I mean, you can take Moses. Here's why I'm quoting this This man does not know who he is. Even amid words of praise, it's about him, for he is in his great longing for loneliness.

00;18;42;16 - 00;19;00;12
Murray Dueck
He never considered his own rank, but serves God according to priestly custom. Again, I think we can just put Moses right here. This old quote and his profound desire to love God. He robs himself of the very memory of his rank in the abyss of his love for God. Any cause for boasting He conceals with a spirit of humility.

00;19;00;12 - 00;19;28;22
Murray Dueck
For in his own mind, you consider himself nothing more than a useless servant is longing for loneliness, makes his rank foreign to him. So should we act? Fleeing every honor and glory for the over abundant riches of the love of God who has loved us so much. So it's one putting down one thing to gain this other thing, this abundant riches of the love of God, and to experience this love so much that you're not even thinking about yourself.

00;19;28;24 - 00;19;49;18
Murray Dueck
So. So I would put that down. Everybody, if we want to get this and it's a concept that that's before I go back and I segway completely into a rabbit trail about Moses and his language and burning bushes, think of it. Think of it like this. You're going to get married. You know, you just got engaged. You are now, man.

00;19;49;18 - 00;20;09;29
Murray Dueck
You are like on cloud nine. How much time are you spending thinking about yourself? Probably not a whole heck of a lot because you're thinking about your spouse, you're planning the wedding, you're telling people you're organizing. Are you organizing for you know, it's taken a lot of times to get a lot of money, but you're you're putting it in.

00;20;10;02 - 00;20;48;08
Murray Dueck
You know why? Because you're in love. And that love is completely motivating you to think about someone else other than yourself. And when we read Moses going, Show me your glory, teach me your ways, you know, we're looking at a man burning with ardent love for God, that he's not thinking about himself anymore, or even most of the time what the people think about him because he's thinking about somebody bigger than himself, but because of what's happening inside of him and and and because we treat humility as something we do exclusively externally, I think sometimes it's like a commandment do this.

00;20;48;11 - 00;21;06;29
Murray Dueck
It's like, don't kill your neighbor. Don't steal his wife. And you know what? Be humble instead of like, wow, I love so much. You don't care about me. I just care about him. Those are two different motivations, external and internal and. Yeah.

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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, absolutely.

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Murray Dueck
Now I'm going to totally segue way back to language.

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Joshua Hoffert
Okay, Go for it.

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Murray Dueck
Okay. And then we could get moving. Okay.

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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;21;15;03 - 00;21;23;08
Murray Dueck
So just with a couple of things with Moses about humility. Sorry, everybody. This has to be done. It's a podcast. Do what I want. So when.

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Joshua Hoffert
You can do whatever you want.

00;21;24;28 - 00;21;34;09
Murray Dueck
That should be a background song. Every time we do a bad Segway, we should have some do up singers that that sing in the background. I could do whatever I want. Oh God. And like.

00;21;34;09 - 00;21;42;18
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, if anybody wants to see that happen, please donate so that we can hire people to do the editing so that I have actual time to do things in my life.

00;21;42;20 - 00;22;05;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I'm going to hit a button and it's like we know, we know what's coming. A very bad segway. We need a show manager. You up? Singers are singing. Yeah. And then we're like, Oh, here we are. Rabbit Trail. It's the Rabbit Trail Singers. Okay, so this is the Rabbit Trail singers right here. It's funny when you read Stephen's account of Moses in Act seven, he says Moses was a gifted speaker.

00;22;05;15 - 00;22;28;10
Murray Dueck
No, an eloquent, an eloquent speaker and a gifted leader. Which is interesting because when you read this quote about Moses, he says, I cannot speak well. So I think as a murray ism, I'm just going to throw this out as my opinion. I personally think the problem is that Moses can't speak Hebrew. I mean, because he's been trained in all the knowledge and eloquence of the Egyptians.

00;22;28;12 - 00;22;47;21
Murray Dueck
Why should he learn a slave language? It makes no sense that he would know Hebrew. They're the despised people group. Why would you learn that language? You would be mocked and considered lowly and a slave. There's no reason for him to know it right at all. So I don't speak well. I think he means I don't speak Hebrew well.

00;22;47;23 - 00;23;05;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right. But we might end what he had. He may have picked he would pick up from his like, cause, you know, the the the daughter Pharaoh finds him and then gives him back to his mom to care for him as a young man and johns and so he would have he would have all he would have learned was what he gleaned practically.

00;23;05;16 - 00;23;08;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right. As opposed to. Yeah, structured. Right.

00;23;08;10 - 00;23;18;14
Murray Dueck
So anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there because that was just my thinking. And one last thing about him entering the Promised Land. I got a couple of thoughts on that too. So I told you, Rabbit Trail what it's going to.

00;23;18;14 - 00;23;19;02
Joshua Hoffert
Say.

00;23;19;05 - 00;23;38;24
Murray Dueck
About him. Not going in because we know and you can correct me on this, he the people are grumbling and they're complaining and they don't have any water. So he goes, so he says, why do I? I think he says me or me, and I don't think he's referring to God. Maybe he says, we, me and God have to do this for you stiff neck people.

00;23;38;24 - 00;23;45;27
Murray Dueck
Then he strikes a rock instead of speaking to it. Right. And and I think that's the moment he God says, Hey, because you did this, that is.

00;23;45;27 - 00;23;46;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;23;46;16 - 00;24;10;21
Murray Dueck
You don't go in. And I and I, I think partly I mean these physical events, the signs that he's doing their spoke up were supposed to speak about Christ, you know. Yeah. But I think part of that moment is that instead of speaking to the rock, the word of the Lord, he used his own anger and his own internal judgment to and he moved in the wrong spirit there.

00;24;10;22 - 00;24;38;17
Murray Dueck
And I think that's part of it. But but here is the biggest reason I think he didn't get to go in the promised land. They're just going to throw this out there. Can you imagine if the Jews today had more Moses, his gravesite available in Israel? What, as a rallying point, what that would do for cultural pride, You know, think about from the Maccabees all the way forward to the Romans.

00;24;38;21 - 00;24;39;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;24;39;17 - 00;24;45;05
Murray Dueck
It would be an insane monument to rebellion. And I like I think the Lord is like, you know what?

00;24;45;05 - 00;24;48;12
Joshua Hoffert
Let's just nip that in the bud. We call that.

00;24;48;17 - 00;24;56;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah, Yeah. And I honestly think that's one reason the foment of nationalism around that would be insane.

00;24;56;19 - 00;25;01;26
Joshua Hoffert
I've wondered with Moses and with that, you know, in our conversation on humility.

00;25;01;28 - 00;25;04;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I know, I know. I told the rabbi to just think.

00;25;04;16 - 00;25;22;12
Joshua Hoffert
This germane to the life of Moses because he was called the most humble man. So I guess anything we say about Moses would have to be taken in the context of that, right? Is that like when God floods the earth, Right? He says, I will no longer. I'm flooded. You floods the Earth once, I'll no longer do it again.

00;25;22;15 - 00;25;33;15
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And and when when Moses strikes the air strikes the rock right? And then in a way, it's I will no longer strike the earth again.

00;25;33;18 - 00;25;34;15
Murray Dueck
It's interesting.

00;25;34;15 - 00;25;48;11
Joshua Hoffert
So Jesus is it? He's died once. He's never re crucified. The Hebrews tells us that, right? So he's struck once for all of mankind, not twice, not continually.

00;25;48;13 - 00;25;49;10
Murray Dueck
So interesting.

00;25;49;15 - 00;26;04;09
Joshua Hoffert
So God meters out judgment in the Old Testament. God meters out judgment in one way, once right to in the in the flood. And then he meters out justice once in the striking of the rock, not twice.

00;26;04;16 - 00;26;07;04
Murray Dueck
And then I knew you have something interesting to say on this.

00;26;07;09 - 00;26;30;04
Joshua Hoffert
Moses is not asked to do. He then is asked to speak to the rock. Right. Because the first one demonstrates the the the severity of the Lord. Right. You people who are complaining just to show you that God can do this. Right. This is that the judgment and justice of God, right. Is is Moses strikes the rock, then God now comes and says, Speak to the rock.

00;26;30;04 - 00;27;01;02
Joshua Hoffert
Why? Because God has demonstrated his justice and judgment. But now God now longs to demonstrate his tenderness. So how does he demonstrate his tenderness? By a word, not by an action? Right. And it's it's similar to Elijah when Elijah sees the judgment of God against the prophets of Ahab or Prophets of Veil. Right. With Ahab in the 400 prophets, where they go to do the sacrifice, the fire comes down, all the rocks cry, the rocks break apart because the fire so intense.

00;27;01;02 - 00;27;11;15
Joshua Hoffert
And then Elijah prays and the storm comes right? Well, then Elijah goes up to the mountain. I'm just I'm. I'm doing this a disservice because you could go through this, be by be but just a draft.

00;27;11;19 - 00;27;13;28
Murray Dueck
No, it's great. I this is great information.

00;27;14;00 - 00;27;26;12
Joshua Hoffert
So Elijah goes up on the mountain and it says the fire comes, God's on in the fire. It says the fire was so intense that the the earth shook or another earthquake was so intense that the earth, the rocks shook and broke apart.

00;27;26;15 - 00;27;26;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;27;27;03 - 00;27;45;00
Joshua Hoffert
And it says God wasn't in the earthquake. And then the wind comes and goes out in the wind. So those are the three manifestations that happened at the altar. A bell is the fire goes on in the fire, the rocks breaking apart goes under the rocks breaking apart and the wind. Because Elijah prays and the storm comes, goes on in the wind.

00;27;45;07 - 00;27;55;29
Joshua Hoffert
But the still small voice or the gentle whisper or the what's the I was it you who was telling me about the waffling light or the the wavering light? That's one of the translations. They're.

00;27;56;00 - 00;27;59;10
Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah, I don't even know where that I couldn't find it now for the life.

00;27;59;10 - 00;28;31;03
Joshua Hoffert
Of some translation that anyway so this this kind of very gentle manifestation and that's where he finds God is in the gentle manifestation, Right. So God's not in the big thing is in the small thing there. Right. So we see, we see this kind of consistent theme in Scripture anyway. And then Moses in his humility, because that is as a humility, as not so much a practiced virtue as it is the result of divine encounter.

00;28;31;05 - 00;29;08;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And Moses demonstrates that. But when he fails to demonstrate it, he fails to not just, you know, you know, accurately represent what the narrative story's supposed to be throughout the New Testament. Right. But he fails to demonstrate the tenderness of God. Yes. So he fails in showing the people what God is actually like. And so Moses in his failure, actually his failure as the leader and the and the picture of God to the people is way more dramatic than just your average person's failure, because they might only have one or two people.

00;29;08;18 - 00;29;14;03
Joshua Hoffert
But Moses is actually demonstrating to the nation of Israel the way that God is.

00;29;14;06 - 00;29;23;05
Murray Dueck
Yes, exactly. And, and to some extent, like like even to the Egyptians, where God had said to the Egyptians, you will be as God and Aaron will be as your prophet. Exactly.

00;29;23;05 - 00;29;23;29
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly.

00;29;23;29 - 00;29;29;00
Murray Dueck
Like the you know, the Jews themselves probably thought. I mean, here this guy talks to the ocean and it breaks open and people will.

00;29;29;01 - 00;29;30;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right? I mean, that's right.

00;29;30;04 - 00;29;34;02
Murray Dueck
I think what he's demonstrating is fairly significant in his actions.

00;29;34;05 - 00;29;47;06
Joshua Hoffert
So then the last thing about I'll say about Moses is, is I've given I've given a decent amount of thought to this. And Moses, you know, the whole thing is he won't he can't go into the promised land. Right.

00;29;47;08 - 00;29;48;03
Murray Dueck
Mm.

00;29;48;05 - 00;30;04;10
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And that's the judgment that comes based on that. Right. And so but then we see in the Book of Jude right where Jude talks about the, the Archangel Michael or Michael the Archangel.

00;30;04;13 - 00;30;06;14
Murray Dueck
Fighting with the devil over Moses. His body.

00;30;06;15 - 00;30;18;13
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly. And, and bringing him wherever he was going to bring him. Right. Maybe that's the mount of Transfiguration. Maybe the mount of Transfiguration.

00;30;18;15 - 00;30;19;24
Murray Dueck
I never thought about that.

00;30;19;27 - 00;30;20;19
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe.

00;30;20;19 - 00;30;21;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;30;21;15 - 00;30;31;06
Joshua Hoffert
Could be that. Maybe it's maybe Moses when he's on the mountain. Here's the point. Okay? Moses entered the Promised Land because he met with Jesus in the promised land.

00;30;31;12 - 00;30;33;12
Murray Dueck
In the minor transfiguration.

00;30;33;15 - 00;30;53;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Okay. So he actually entered the promised land, right? So in his life, he received judgment for the penalty of mist, of not portraying the Godhead and not doing the thing he was asked to do. So he received judgment, but as God, as a merciful God in his mercy, God already knew that He was going to take Moses into the promised land.

00;30;53;23 - 00;31;08;04
Joshua Hoffert
So received judgment in his life, because God's perfectly justified then, and because this is the thing then, right? The devil goes. I got Moses now, right? Because. Because he he's transgressed. He's mine.

00;31;08;06 - 00;31;08;28
Murray Dueck
Right? Wow.

00;31;09;04 - 00;31;31;13
Joshua Hoffert
And God goes, Hold on a second. He already paid his penalty. Yeah, I've got him, actually. Right. And so that's why Michael can go to Satan. The Lord rebuke you and God can be totally justified in taking Moses and presenting him before Jesus. And He encounters Jesus in the Glory counties, the glory of God and goes, This is what it's all about.

00;31;31;13 - 00;31;55;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right? So anyway, there's and it's the mercy of God that actually when every time God's judgment is on display, his mercy is on display to Exactly. We have to remember that. So anyway, Moses, the most humble man, and we see through his life, he, he he points us to Jesus. But as of as all these things we're seeing through a glass darkly, right?

00;31;55;17 - 00;32;40;11
Joshua Hoffert
We're seeing through the dim representation. And then we see the actual person of Jesus who is the perfect representation of theology. And what we see in him is complete and utter humility. And and this this becomes obviously the the person of Jesus to the patristic the desert fathers becomes the eminent example that we look at. Right. And it's not even just like because you can't look at Jesus like I know correct me if I'm wrong, Marie, because I'm just thinking out loud right now, you can't look at Jesus and go, Oh, well, here's the discipline he enacted so that he was humble.

00;32;40;14 - 00;33;07;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yes, right. He just was as a characteristic of his being and he was humble as a characteristic of his being, according to Philippians two, before he took on human flesh. Yet he says he didn't call account equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself and took on the form of a servant. So already within the Divine Godhead is the character trait.

00;33;07;05 - 00;33;30;13
Joshua Hoffert
Or, you know, when with God it's not so much a character trait as it is with us where, you know, I want to learn patience as a character trait. And so I'm put into situations where patience is a thing I have to choose. And then it it works on the neural pathways in my mind and my brain. It becomes easier and easier, and I become a more patient person right where I may not have been a more patient person.

00;33;30;13 - 00;33;54;10
Joshua Hoffert
So that's a character trait that I work on. When it's a character trait of God, it's part of the essence of God or the quality of God. It's not a character trait he acquires. It is who he is, right? It is just the essence of God is perfect humility. It has to be because before, before you know, this human human taking on.

00;33;54;12 - 00;34;17;28
Joshua Hoffert
He was already humble because he doesn't count equality with God, a thing to be grasped, but empties himself as the the person in the of the Trinity Jesus. Right. So so that's a that's a a distinct characteristic or key when to understand humility from a patristic point of view is that it's not so much that Jesus did things to acquire humility.

00;34;18;01 - 00;34;26;28
Joshua Hoffert
It says he learned obedience through his suffering. Right? Yeah, but it doesn't say exactly Hebrews three Hebrews three or six or five in Hebrews.

00;34;27;00 - 00;34;28;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Than two three there somewhere.

00;34;28;18 - 00;34;41;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So everything but it but as a character trait it's not a thing. He earns humility, it is who he is. So how do we acquire humility. That's one of the big questions, right?

00;34;41;21 - 00;35;00;22
Murray Dueck
Yes. And, and I think we again, you know, seem to make it such a legalistic thing, at least in my upbringing. You know. Sure. I remember a little prayer. We were taught as a joke. I mean, people would you know, the Bible school teachers would say it every once in a while. Enough people would say it was never pray for patience, because you're sure to get it.

00;35;00;25 - 00;35;02;05
Murray Dueck
You know, like don't pray for that.

00;35;02;11 - 00;35;03;07
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right, right.

00;35;03;07 - 00;35;16;16
Murray Dueck
It's like, you know, you'd braver all kinds of stuff. It's like Ben and I. But, you know, it's a funny thing when we talk about humility, because I won't use the language maybe I used with Joshua earlier on this.

00;35;16;19 - 00;35;19;11
Joshua Hoffert
But there was lots of swear words and all that.

00;35;19;11 - 00;35;21;22
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I made a particular comment about.

00;35;21;22 - 00;35;22;19
Joshua Hoffert
No, no, no, how.

00;35;22;19 - 00;35;53;02
Murray Dueck
This was pushed in my Mennonite heritage, let's just say, and about, you know, the Beatitudes. And it got to the point where it created this in some ways false culture of, well, if you do these things and we can observe you doing them, then we have a yardstick in which to judge you and then we can either promote you or not in this culture.

00;35;53;05 - 00;36;11;02
Murray Dueck
And it becomes very legalistic and and like, okay, so, you know, what is what does it look like? So, so for example, as you know, God, I would say a lot of things have changed in Mennonite culture. And I know there's a mennonite contemplative retreat place in Abbotsford now. Praise the Lord. Yeah, I know one of the midnight churches go.

00;36;11;03 - 00;36;35;29
Murray Dueck
They send their older people to Bethel now to do, you know, they come. So lots of change. But but in my time period you know in your thinking is as a pastor, if you're going to be in ministry, you should be poor, right? You should be poor because that's humility. And if you're not, well, then really, should you be a pastor because you know, you're not really living it.

00;36;35;29 - 00;37;00;23
Murray Dueck
And so, you know, and so it was something that like, well, this is what it looks like, don't have any money, don't buy nice cars, don't go to movies, don't do this, don't do that, Don't. That's humility, right? And it's like, well, no, I mean, that's all externals. I mean, it's an internal reality of a relationship with his God, as you describe.

00;37;00;27 - 00;37;29;20
Murray Dueck
This is the nature of Christ. Right. So how do we have this nature of Christ flowing within us where we're seeing externals manifest out of an internal reality instead of like, I must do these things to earn the love of God or for people to see me as close to God. And those are not the same things you know, and, and, and so part of it, you know, the desert fathers would, would, you know, I'll I'll throw out two different ways here that I think are kind of important.

00;37;29;22 - 00;38;03;18
Murray Dueck
And then one again is kind of back to how Moses wasn't about himself. He was about the Lord, His glory, his way. Show me your face, teach me your ways and just you're so in love with somebody else. You know, you're making sacrifice because you can't help yourself, you know? And I remember back in Youth of the Mission talking about our love for God, and and they used this example of a missions base in Mexico, I think it was and it was a retreat for for pastors and leaders and and other missionaries.

00;38;03;21 - 00;38;28;19
Murray Dueck
And they would have two experiences often when missionaries and pastors and leaders would come and stay in their place. And one would be people would come and go, you know, I'm so tired and it's so hard if I could just get away for a little bit of time and recover. Right. And the other one would be people would come and go, you know, Jesus is so full of and he's so incredibly kind.

00;38;28;22 - 00;38;49;17
Murray Dueck
I just I'm so thankful that I can have a place to be, that I can meet with Jesus and then take what I'm going to get and just give it away to them. I mean, two very different, you know, experiences based on one and are us working it and two us being known, giving away what's occurring in us, you know, very different ways to do that.

00;38;49;25 - 00;39;15;22
Murray Dueck
So so one I think the greater love that we experience of of God, I think we kind of forget about ourselves, you know, and we don't care for promoted. We just take the low seat at the table. We don't don't even think about it. You know, it's like because I just love God so much. I just want to see him, you know?

00;39;15;28 - 00;39;31;29
Murray Dueck
It's like the early Moravian selling themselves into slavery. Slavery that God would be, you know, as they're on this on the ship being sold into slavery to China, going may the Lord be glorified, may his name go there. I'm thinking about themselves. Not that I don't think I'm that humble, actually. I don't feel like being sold into slavery.

00;39;31;29 - 00;39;34;02
Murray Dueck
But however so.

00;39;34;05 - 00;39;36;07
Joshua Hoffert
But the thing the Desert Fathers did, though.

00;39;36;09 - 00;39;40;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's something they did for that very reason that Jesus would be. You're right.

00;39;40;14 - 00;39;41;10
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;39;41;12 - 00;40;03;24
Murray Dueck
And. And maybe I'll just throw out the other one, too, just as an as an internal. And the other one, I think, you know, I actually I'm kind of quoting some fathers a froni or Silwan, which we're going to come back to here, walk over to the abyss and look down and then take three steps back and have tea.

00;40;03;26 - 00;40;29;05
Murray Dueck
So you could you could take the first part I said about the love of God is taking three steps back and have to let God love you, be loved, fall passionately in love with him. But but there's another side of this. You know, go over to the abyss and look down so, you know, know what's in your human nature and your character and and realize that we have all this massive brokenness in there.

00;40;29;05 - 00;40;54;08
Murray Dueck
And and, and sometimes. So let me kind of explain that one because because again, if you we look in Philippians, you know, treat others or think of others more highly than yourself. Well, that that that would be a good statement of humility, wouldn't it? That would be a good statement of humility. But I think sometimes in our culture, we make that a doing thing again.

00;40;54;11 - 00;41;15;00
Murray Dueck
Well, I've got to kind of hate myself and and and, you know, really others better than me because I'm a worm and I'm nothing. You know, I think that's an overemphasis there. I mean, not understanding the language. If we're going to use desert father language, that's not what they mean. Right. But but if you think of it like this.

00;41;15;02 - 00;41;40;19
Murray Dueck
So it's again, it's more of an inner knowing. And I was saying to Josh, this is kind of how I experience it when I can be a pretty crabby driver and I consider myself a good driver. I really do. I think I'm a good driver. I think I am. But unfortunately, when I think I'm a really good driver, what happens is I often think everyone else is a horrible driver.

00;41;40;22 - 00;42;01;13
Murray Dueck
And and and and if I quoted a bishop, you know, father put him in here, I mean, he's I'll throw this quote in here, right, because it'll explain this quote, A brother asked ABA Portman, how can a man avoid condemning his neighbor? Because that's not a very humble thing to do, is it? Condemn your neighbor? The elder responded, We and our brothers are duel images.

00;42;01;15 - 00;42;21;07
Murray Dueck
Whenever a man is attentive to himself and reproaches himself, he finds his brother virtuous. But he thinks of himself good. He finds his brother to be evil in his sight. So and so again, I think the trap there is to go, Oh man, I suck. And these people are all better than me. And I mean, again, that's not what you're saying, right?

00;42;21;14 - 00;43;00;28
Murray Dueck
What? What he's saying is, like, my my car example. So when we think of ourselves, Hey, I'm pretty good. Look at me. Woo! So. So if I'm driving and I'm feeling pretty good about my driving skills, I'm pretty critical of people who forget the signal, who drive too slow in the fast lane, who run red lights, who, matter of fact, I've kept you know, I'll just confess this right now, driving into Vancouver to teach for a bunch of years every Saturday that I can tell you that Mercedes drivers are the worst drivers on that because I have kept a tally of every type of vehicle and how good or bad they are, depending on how

00;43;00;28 - 00;43;16;20
Murray Dueck
they they do these things, how often they leave too much space at a late you know, the he's got 15 feet in front of him at the light. Why pull up behind him already you know or they're running and Mercedes drivers Cadillac drivers not so good at BMW driver.

00;43;16;25 - 00;43;17;13
Joshua Hoffert
Episode.

00;43;17;14 - 00;43;17;24
Murray Dueck
Actually.

00;43;18;01 - 00;43;21;26
Joshua Hoffert
Upcoming podcast episode drivers Mary hates.

00;43;21;29 - 00;43;24;24
Murray Dueck
Yes girls sleeping in the background.

00;43;24;26 - 00;43;25;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah yeah.

00;43;25;10 - 00;43;50;28
Murray Dueck
That's right the rabbit trail so you know so I do this so one day the one day in the winter last winter, you know, driving my truck, you know, Sierra, GMC, four wheel drive, got my winter tires on. No, I think I'm doing pretty good and I'm not paying attention. I don't know what I'm doing. Like, you know, I'm pulling up to this, you know, stop.

00;43;51;00 - 00;44;06;03
Murray Dueck
And, you know, there's a road in front of me. You turn left, you turn right, and I'm pulling up. And you know what? I'm not paying attention. And I hit my brakes and it's a little bit uphill. So I'm not thinking this is going to be slippery. This is going to be it should be fine, Right? I hit brakes and I slide man on.

00;44;06;03 - 00;44;24;11
Murray Dueck
I don't stop and I'm going into traffic. I'm not not that I'm going to hit anybody, but this guy's driving by and he looks at me. He's got his Christmas tree in the back and he and he points at his head and then he points at me, Hey, you, you pay a digit, right? And he's like pointing at his head and out the window at me.

00;44;24;11 - 00;44;45;15
Murray Dueck
You think you know what I'm like, Oh, how freaking embarrassing. You know, because I should know. I should know better than that. But you know what? What? And you're a good driver. Because I'm a good driver. I'm good at this. I know what I'm doing. I'm capable. Well, you know what? When I drove the next week, even for a while after that, I was like, Oh, that poor driver.

00;44;45;15 - 00;45;18;07
Murray Dueck
He probably doesn't realize the signal light is on. Oh, that person who ran that light, they. They just must have looked down right then, you know, or that driver that, that, that, that just cut that guy off, you know maybe he just needs new glasses is having a bad day. So instead of being in this critical, abusive, judgmental, Mercedes hating person, suddenly I'm moving full, full of compassion because I saw within myself my own weaknesses and suddenly I could see it in my fellow man instead of judging them from my strengths.

00;45;18;09 - 00;45;40;13
Murray Dueck
Right, Right. And that self-knowledge go over to the abyss and look down created me, created in me humility. And you know what? I didn't judge myself about it. I was like, Wow, Lord, thank you for letting me see this. I needed I needed a little bit of I need to see this, that in this particular situation, when I drive, I need to know this about myself.

00;45;40;13 - 00;46;11;17
Murray Dueck
And I've been a lot better since then. Actually, you know, I'm in a in an AA program for drivers now and I'm, you know, I'm confessing my my driving habits. But, but and I'm being facetious there. But but self-knowledge creates humility. And so those two things, you know, for the desert fathers, you know, losing the sight of ourselves because of the love of God, but as well, seeing within ourselves because of being so loved, what's really in us both creating this response.

00;46;11;17 - 00;46;29;08
Murray Dueck
And and for me, when I when I read The Beatitudes now, I read them very, very differently than my Mennonite culture like and hopefully my men and I culture probably reads it different, too. I mean, I'm reading it from a 15 year old to a 20 year old Mennonite guy, which I might have been misunderstanding them the whole time.

00;46;29;08 - 00;46;32;15
Murray Dueck
Let's just be nice here. But yeah.

00;46;32;17 - 00;46;37;07
Joshua Hoffert
So yeah, there, there. Well, we've talked about the Beatitudes. Predict sensibly they're not.

00;46;37;09 - 00;46;37;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;46;37;21 - 00;46;48;21
Joshua Hoffert
Man's they're invitations and any time we turn those things into a command, we externalize the process. And any time we turn them into an invitation, we internalize the encounter.

00;46;48;24 - 00;46;50;00
Murray Dueck
Perfect. That's beautiful.

00;46;50;00 - 00;47;14;12
Joshua Hoffert
When. Look at. I was just thinking, too. And in light of what you were saying, when the very first thing Moses does, when he sees the burning bush is takes his shoes off because he recognizes his unworthiness. Right. So he sees something amazing, right? He encounters what we would classically call the burning bush, the love of God. It's the fire, the fire that consumes and transforms.

00;47;14;12 - 00;47;29;04
Joshua Hoffert
He sees the love of God, the presence of God, the spirit of God. The spirit of God is oftentimes portrayed as fire in Scripture, and the Spirit of God will probably do all of the podcast on how the Spirit of God is the love of God.

00;47;29;07 - 00;47;30;19
Murray Dueck
Wow, that would be awesome.

00;47;30;22 - 00;48;01;23
Joshua Hoffert
That would be awesome. And so Moses encounters radical love, sees radical love, and the very first movement of his heart is humility. So he and he and so he sees God in a manifested way. And then he responds in a inner knowledge way. I need to remove my you know, it's an external display, but it's because I'm on holy ground and I'm unworthy.

00;48;01;23 - 00;48;31;08
Joshua Hoffert
I need to remove my sandals. Right? So he sees God and he doesn't run. He sees God and comes towards but he recognizes at once the invitation and his unworthiness both at the same time are happy and the invitation, but also the revelation of his own personal nothingness. And that's an important that's a really important distinction to make, is the the understanding that I'm I can never stand in the face of this.

00;48;31;08 - 00;48;57;02
Joshua Hoffert
And my what's inside of me as a as like Murray as you said what my I my inability to drive right Yeah. Generated humility right. Moses's awareness of his depravity generated humility right Getting out of my head, taking my sandals off. But it didn't mean he went. I'm whooped and I can never drive again.

00;48;57;04 - 00;48;58;03
Murray Dueck
Right? Yeah, that's right.

00;48;58;10 - 00;49;18;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. It said I'm invited regardless of this. And that's always that's always something we have to look at the the desert fathers. Well, you know, actually I'll say this one time a few years ago, I was really wrestling with, we had gone through a major life transition, my wife and I with the kids and everything. And Murray was Murray.

00;49;18;04 - 00;49;45;04
Joshua Hoffert
If I gave all the details of it, Murray would remember this very well. It was a very difficult time. And the Lord spoke to me one morning when I was praying and he said to me, Josh, and see, you're in a season of preparation, in seasons of preparation, serve well in obscurity. And I said, and so my I just kind of I was pondering that and I asked the Lord in this moment, well, who like I don't understand that.

00;49;45;04 - 00;50;18;14
Joshua Hoffert
Who am I to be obscure to? Like, what am I obscure to? And the Lord said to me, People, you're never obscure to me. I always see God. And so and to me it was okay if once I see him right, it's just as Murray's been saying, once I see him, he captivates my attention. And I'm not saying we're perfect in this, I'm just saying we understand this is where we're trying to go, that once I see him, then all the other things being obscure to people, that's that's my language, right?

00;50;18;14 - 00;50;36;04
Joshua Hoffert
All the other things become less important because I see him so I no longer have to go. How do I practice? Humility is the byproduct of seeing him, because now that I see him obscure to him, I'm obscure to people. And so I don't have to respond to their praise and their accolades and all that thing, all those things.

00;50;36;09 - 00;50;59;04
Joshua Hoffert
I can just serve him before him and be with him. And I think you find that kind of refrain like I remember before that moment used to think of Philippians two, and I think I've said this on the podcast before where it says, Think of others as greater than yourself, right? That's right. Before that, let this be in you part.

00;50;59;06 - 00;51;10;12
Joshua Hoffert
I used to practically read that or functionally read that. I didn't actually read it this way because I can read, but functionally read it as think of yourself as worse than others.

00;51;10;14 - 00;51;19;11
Murray Dueck
Yes. Yeah, that's exactly kind of what I was trying to poke at you because. Yes, it is exactly how I would say you're right. That's exactly how I would interpret that in my head.

00;51;19;18 - 00;51;39;03
Joshua Hoffert
So if I read if I thought of myself as worse than others, then by doing that, I would automatically think of others more. But that's and I think that's the trick of the devil, man. Yeah. Because what it does is it gets you focused on yourself. It's still pride, right? You're looking at yourself. I'm still thinking of myself.

00;51;39;06 - 00;52;01;13
Joshua Hoffert
Like if I just think of myself as horrible and awful and evil, I don't naturally think of others as good. Just think of myself all the time. So the more I'm captivated and caught up, the less I think of myself and the more I think about others. Because I've gotten my mind off of myself. However, when my mind is stuck on myself, recognizing my depravity can help me get my mind off of myself.

00;52;01;15 - 00;52;11;17
Murray Dueck
Yes, right. So right here, you got to tell the story You maybe you did before, but in context, it would be good of of the angel in the backseat of your car.

00;52;11;19 - 00;52;12;23
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;52;12;26 - 00;52;16;14
Murray Dueck
Because the story I love the story and it does get it fit here. It shows the.

00;52;16;15 - 00;52;23;16
Joshua Hoffert
Lord. I was. I was. I was driving one day. This was years ago before I ever moved to Canada.

00;52;23;16 - 00;52;25;12
Murray Dueck
So I hear the story for the rest of my life.

00;52;25;12 - 00;52;44;19
Joshua Hoffert
It's like 15 years ago. Maybe I'm driving one day and I feel like the Lord asks me as I'm driving and praying and just kind of, you know, trying to keep my heart tuned to him. And he says, Hey, Josh, do you want to see your guardian angel? Yeah, I don't have like a robust theology of angels or guardian angels or whatever.

00;52;44;19 - 00;53;05;25
Joshua Hoffert
I'm just saying, you know, at that time, that's what the Lord asked me. And I was like, you know, yeah, I want to see, you know, I don't see angels. I want to see all the spiritual stuff, you know, And immediately as I'm driving, this picture floods my mind and I see sitting in my back seat, there's poor, disheveled beat up guy, right?

00;53;05;25 - 00;53;18;21
Joshua Hoffert
Tattered clothes, you know, a couple of bruises bloody by. And I realize it's like this is you look what you've put him through.

00;53;18;23 - 00;53;31;13
Joshua Hoffert
He's been guarding you and he's gotten so beat up because all the stuff you've been doing right. And I'll never forget the picture, Right. You want to see your guardian angel? I'm thinking this giant standing out, standing shining.

00;53;31;15 - 00;53;33;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Massive muscle with light pouring out.

00;53;34;01 - 00;53;41;29
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. I just subjected him to every single torture you could think of. Rick. Yeah. I'll never forget that.

00;53;42;02 - 00;53;59;10
Murray Dueck
The reason that it fits his context is that, again, you know, walk over to the abyss and look down and take three steps back. And you know, on the one hand here, God, in this moment of humor and jest and love, is saying, I want you to see, Oh, that's awesome.

00;53;59;12 - 00;54;03;24
Joshua Hoffert
And then you see myself, right? I really see a reflection of myself.

00;54;03;26 - 00;54;24;16
Murray Dueck
That's right. And you do see your age. But then you see, oh, my goodness, this is what's inside of you. Look what I did. But you you see that this juxtaposition of the incredible love of God, but also kind of our fallen nature. And you see them both at the same time, you know, and you go, oh, my goodness, how do these two things live together?

00;54;24;16 - 00;54;51;06
Murray Dueck
And and and we do experience that again in our in our church culture when we do altar calls. I mean, I don't know how else to explain maybe where you've experienced this personally, but a good a good time maybe to say, yeah, you have experiences any time there's been an altar call, maybe I shouldn't say anytime, but often when there's an altar call to repent of something and we know it's the Lord and God's like tapping us going, Oh boy, I should go up for this one.

00;54;51;06 - 00;55;13;11
Murray Dueck
Because and you know, the Holy Spirit is revealing some things. And we go up there, we kneel down, and there's this beautiful condemnation, beautiful conviction, right? And we're like and we're sorrowful about that. You know, we feel bad. But is that the only thing we experience? No, not at all. Why are we going up? Because of the incredible love of God.

00;55;13;13 - 00;55;30;01
Murray Dueck
And we know we're going to be washed. We know we're getting loved on. We know we're actually getting three and we see inside of ourselves walk over to the abyss and look down. But we're also experiencing this incredible love of God in that moment for who we are and that we're created and loved. And he died for us.

00;55;30;01 - 00;55;35;05
Murray Dueck
And and and so that there are the church groups. They now live their lives in this moment.

00;55;35;05 - 00;55;36;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Yeah, that's right.

00;55;36;24 - 00;55;38;29
Murray Dueck
And that's humility. Live there.

00;55;39;06 - 00;55;54;14
Joshua Hoffert
And the only way you can really live there is by prayer in the sense of offering yourself to God, like one of the one of the one of the desert fathers named Objetivos. I don't I think that's how you say it to those. He was asked.

00;55;54;15 - 00;55;54;29
Murray Dueck
Either.

00;55;55;00 - 00;56;05;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, he maybe was. Yeah, he was asked by one of the brothers that he was mentoring is though the question was, you know, the tendency in the Desert fathers was to ask, Give me a word, Father, right?

00;56;05;25 - 00;56;06;16
Murray Dueck
That's right. Yeah.

00;56;06;16 - 00;56;29;16
Joshua Hoffert
And so this brother has two more pointed question. He said, Which way leads to humility. That was his question. To those and to those as this the way of humility is this self-control, prayer and thinking yourself inferior to all creatures. And so it's interesting to those the thinking yourself inferior to all creatures would be a typical way that desert fathers would communicate humility.

00;56;29;18 - 00;56;52;17
Joshua Hoffert
But to those says that the way the path of humility isn't just thinking of yourself that way, but it's self-control and prayer offering yourself to God in a consistent manner because you can't think of yourself inferior to all creatures unless you see him. So it has to be prayer. And this it can't just be. He doesn't say. The way to humility is to think of yourself as inferior.

00;56;52;17 - 00;56;58;23
Joshua Hoffert
No, it's prayer and self-control. And then in the context of that thinking of yes, that's brilliant.

00;56;58;23 - 00;57;04;07
Murray Dueck
It's so helpful for even me to hear because, you know, reading all of that, you have to get that. And that's wonderful.

00;57;04;10 - 00;57;28;03
Joshua Hoffert
You've got to pull it to pull it apart. So luckily, I love reading. So here's the story in the life of Anthony the Great that I think underscores that pretty well. Where Anthony the Great is is praying one day in in his you know in his lived call it in a cell right which is you know side note as I was staying at the Catholic monastery of it sustain a cell which is just a little one bedroom or one bedroom.

00;57;28;03 - 00;57;30;15
Murray Dueck
You're sitting right.

00;57;30;17 - 00;57;42;05
Joshua Hoffert
Well, it's a monastery, so I'm guessing they call it a cell anyway. Yeah, it's not the monastic cells because all the monks stay in a separate wing. But whatever made me feel kind of monastic for a day or day. So.

00;57;42;07 - 00;57;43;05
Murray Dueck
Anthony, it must have.

00;57;43;05 - 00;58;03;00
Joshua Hoffert
Worked well now, actually to Trappist Monastery. So the Trappists don't have any regulations about beards, and most of them are just clean shaven for a bit. It's it's kind of an interesting juxtaposition, having stayed with the Orthodox monks before, staying with the Catholic guys who are totally clean shaven, it's like, I don't know if I like that or not.

00;58;03;00 - 00;58;03;26
Joshua Hoffert
It's it's like.

00;58;03;26 - 00;58;04;21
Murray Dueck
All those.

00;58;04;21 - 00;58;20;12
Joshua Hoffert
Weird anyway, that's just my take. So Anthony's in a cell and he hears a voice, and the voice says to him, I'll read this. Anthony, you have not yet attained to the of such and such a cobbler who lives in Alexandria. The cobbler would be a shoemaker.

00;58;20;19 - 00;58;20;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;58;20;27 - 00;58;43;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. He's staying in a cell and he hears a voice comes to him. You have not attained to the stature of this particular shoemaker in Alexandria. So Anthony is like, huh? So he says he gets up, takes his staff and makes his trek down to Alexandria. Now, this isn't like a short trek, all right. Anthony would have been at this point in northern Egypt.

00;58;43;17 - 00;58;52;15
Joshua Hoffert
Alexandria was in Alexandria, in Egypt. It's not super far away, but it's far enough away that he's got to go down to Alexandria. Right. So this is.

00;58;52;15 - 00;58;53;28
Murray Dueck
That walking down a mountain and then.

00;58;54;01 - 00;59;18;20
Joshua Hoffert
Through again mountain through a desert. Exactly. He doesn't hop into a bus and then he's there the next day. Right. So he finds the cobbler in Alexandria and and asks him because now he's curious. Right. What what about this cobbler makes him so great? Why does God what is God want to use him to show me of reaching the stature that God wants me to reach?

00;59;18;20 - 00;59;49;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right? And so he asks the elder, basically, what do you do? I said, What's so special about you is what he asks the call. He doesn't tell the cobbler why he's there. You just says, What do you what do you do? Tell me your needs. And the and the cobbler says this above. I am not aware of having done anything good, except that when I get up in the morning to sit in my workshop, I say to myself, All the inhabitants of this city, from the least to the greatest, are going to enter the Kingdom of Heaven because of their righteousness, while I alone will inherit hell because of my sins.

00;59;49;26 - 00;59;50;15
Murray Dueck
Nor am I.

00;59;50;22 - 01;00;13;27
Joshua Hoffert
And again in the evening. Right. And that's this is standing at the edge, peering into the abyss, taking a step back in the evening before I go to sleep, I say the same thing. So that's all he does outside of work. All right. The morning in the evening, he examines himself and goes, I, I, all of the other people here, he prefers them essentially is what he's doing.

01;00;13;27 - 01;00;36;20
Joshua Hoffert
They all are inheriting the kingdom. And I'm not Right. And you know, we can we can obviously in some people can I what I don't want to do is have people listening to this who already struggle with inferiority going berserk. You know, that that's it's just hammering home the fact that I'm nothing and I'm worthless. No, no, no.

01;00;36;20 - 01;00;55;00
Joshua Hoffert
See, the thing is, he's not thinking of himself. He's thinking of them. That's the whole point. Is he's got his eyes off of his inferiority and on to the people that God loves. So he's so this is that this is the issue here, right? It's not. I'm horrible. Don't hear. I'm horrible here. They're amazing. That's a big difference.

01;00;55;01 - 01;00;55;11
Joshua Hoffert
Okay.

01;00;55;13 - 01;00;56;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

01;00;56;06 - 01;01;15;15
Joshua Hoffert
So then Anthony says this In truth, you are like a goldsmith, right? You work gold, you sit in your house at rest and you've inherited the kingdom. So, you know he's inherited the kingdom because he's seen others inheriting the kingdom. Love that about Anthony. But I, with my lack of discernment, have been living all my life in the desert.

01;01;15;15 - 01;01;17;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yet I have not caught up with you. Okay.

01;01;17;27 - 01;01;22;00
Murray Dueck
Wow, what a blessing to that cobbler to hear somebody show up and say these things to. Yes.

01;01;22;00 - 01;01;45;12
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, for sure. Exactly. That's that's that's a wonderful insight, Mary. So Anthony has an encounter with the Lord, right? The voice speaks to him. Says you haven't achieved the status of this cobbler. Right? So now Anthony gets to peer into his heart and and and it takes a few days walking, peering into his heart because, ah, what's so special about this cobbler?

01;01;45;15 - 01;02;14;24
Joshua Hoffert
Like, what is God going to show me about him? So now he's already if you think about it, you know, putting yourself in Anthony's shoes, he's already thinking and processing and approaching it. He gets there. What do you do? The cobbler says I do nothing special. All I do is prefer other people. And so Anthony, in an encounter, opens up his heart, sees the radical love of the cobbler, who loves the other people and doesn't love himself, you know, doesn't consider himself.

01;02;14;24 - 01;02;34;18
Joshua Hoffert
He just he does his work because he loves the people and he wants to care for them. He's a goldsmith. He's inherited the kingdom. Right. And so Anthony Anthony is convicted by that and sees the pure humility of the cobbler. So peers into his art, sees my own depravity, but also sees the love of God in the midst of it all.

01;02;34;25 - 01;02;56;07
Joshua Hoffert
And then it goes on to say that the the that Anthony always had was that even though he was humble, he was always aware of the spiritual gifts that God had given him, which were greater than most people alive at that time and the things he'd accomplished. Oh, wow. So it's it it says he specifically says about Anthony.

01;02;56;07 - 01;03;21;01
Joshua Hoffert
The problem Anthony had was that even though he was so humble, he was very aware of what God had done through him. So for him to see the cobbler was a direct inspiration from God, because Anthony wants to embrace humility, But fights with this, I've I've accomplished so much, it's difficult for me to forget my accomplishments. And he sees the cobbler whose grip it was greater in.

01;03;21;06 - 01;03;41;00
Joshua Hoffert
And the whole point of the story is not that we need to emulate the cobbler, he said. We need to understand humility. Yes, humility is one of the desert fathers, he said as the breath. It's this is Polman, the shepherd, as the breath which comes out of his natural nostrils, so does a man need humility in the fear of God?

01;03;41;03 - 01;04;03;09
Joshua Hoffert
So. So it's like it's not so much a practical habit you acquire as it is a response to a God breathed moment, peering into your own heart and seeing the heart of God, seeing the difference between those two things, and then finding the grace in the midst of it and beginning to think of yourself less and prefer the other person more.

01;04;03;11 - 01;04;27;06
Joshua Hoffert
And so it's not so humility doesn't it doesn't isn't the result of years of discipline. Humility is the result of seeing God and participating in who He is. And when his life comes to you, like in, in like and this is the point with Anthony is Anthony had an encounter and that encounter began to work humility in him by convincing him of his own unworthiness, but also showing him what love actually looked like.

01;04;27;06 - 01;04;48;22
Joshua Hoffert
So so this is this is so germane to the topic of humility, because it's not like, well, I'm not humble. So what do you need to do to practice humility? What you need to do to practice humility is see the love of God and and consistently and not just, you know, like haphazardly or Oh, God loves me. I know that.

01;04;48;22 - 01;05;15;07
Joshua Hoffert
But actually putting yourself daily in the place where you receive from him. Because once you start seeing him, everything else changes his life. Taking shape in your life because he is the perfect image of humility. Yes, humility starts to work its way out. And what happens, like in the case of Murray and his driving story is God is faithful to bring us back to that place of humility because we wander from it.

01;05;15;09 - 01;05;39;04
Joshua Hoffert
And you can't you can't grab it on your own because it's supernatural. But he brings you back to it by showing you yourself and showing you him. And we move back to it because that's the life taking shape within you. And the more it takes shape within you, the less you depart from it. One of the Catholic mystics, Thomas Hilton, he said, if you you know, this is he uses old English, right?

01;05;39;08 - 01;05;48;08
Joshua Hoffert
If thou would consider themselves more humble than anybody else, you must consider the grievous sins in others as greater than the venial sins in yourself.

01;05;48;11 - 01;05;50;04
Murray Dueck
Wow.

01;05;50;06 - 01;06;15;04
Joshua Hoffert
And so it starts in I'd even say with with Hilton, it starts one step back. Further than that, you must see the love of God. Without seeing the love of God. You can't get there because you can't practice it yourself. There's no routine or discipline that can get you there. Because if if the discipline is looking at my own sin, then I'm still stuck on myself.

01;06;15;07 - 01;06;16;04
Murray Dueck
Yes.

01;06;16;06 - 01;06;24;25
Joshua Hoffert
And that's not humility. That might be a good place to start by people. A good place to start, but it definitely shouldn't be the place you end.

01;06;24;27 - 01;06;31;11
Murray Dueck
Very good. You know it all. They can keep going. I don't know. Do want to keep going or we might.

01;06;31;12 - 01;06;36;29
Joshua Hoffert
Well, maybe we'll. Maybe we'll call. I think we're at over an hour in recording, so we should probably call an episode.

01;06;37;01 - 01;06;58;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, maybe I'll throw out one thought that just went through my mind that people can practice. Sure, But my brain has gone on blank on this particular, you know, practice. I may be more Catholic than than than the desert fathers. I'm not sure when it started. And I'm trying there is like Divina. And then there is the other one.

01;06;58;23 - 01;07;00;09
Joshua Hoffert
Prayer of examine.

01;07;00;11 - 01;07;06;16
Murray Dueck
Yes, prayer of examine. Thank you. And and so everybody, the prayer of examine.

01;07;06;19 - 01;07;11;19
Joshua Hoffert
Before you even go there. All right. Oh, I'm going to tell you, you said this might be more Catholic. Okay.

01;07;11;22 - 01;07;16;02
Murray Dueck
So I'm not sure where that came from. So you can you could fill this in, please. That would be great.

01;07;16;02 - 01;07;22;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I will. I will. Here. I'm going to tell you what I will just. Well, just.

01;07;22;25 - 01;07;32;06
Murray Dueck
I'm just thinking years of when it came. I think 1400 1600s. So it's not back in our time frame, but I guess that doesn't really matter, right? I'm just like.

01;07;32;08 - 01;07;34;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, so it is.

01;07;34;15 - 01;07;35;18
Murray Dueck
Can be Benedictine.

01;07;35;18 - 01;07;43;23
Joshua Hoffert
Do know it is here. Hold on. I'm going to bring up the quote because I've got the quote right here.

01;07;43;24 - 01;07;44;19
Murray Dueck
Oh, good.

01;07;44;22 - 01;08;10;25
Joshua Hoffert
It's right here. Hold on just a second. Right. It's just just one. Let's see the kids all just let's see the kids all just ran in, so.

01;08;11;02 - 01;08;12;16
Murray Dueck
Oh, good. No. So.

01;08;12;16 - 01;08;15;04
Joshua Hoffert
But I can cut that out.

01;08;15;06 - 01;08;17;08
Murray Dueck
I didn't hear it, so, you know.

01;08;17;10 - 01;08;33;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I ask cause I muted it. And so we're going to cut. Okay, getting back, blah, blah, blah. So there's a there's a quote. So whether it's Catholic or not, right. This exercise the prayer of examine, which essentially, as Mary, I'll describe it in just a second.

01;08;34;00 - 01;08;34;21
Murray Dueck
Yes.

01;08;34;23 - 01;08;52;19
Joshua Hoffert
The openness there. So does her father says this A monk must take stock of himself every evening and morning and say which of those things that God wills have I done and which of those things that he wills have I not done? He should pass his whole life in this way.

01;08;52;21 - 01;08;53;16
Murray Dueck
Oh, very good.

01;08;53;16 - 01;08;56;04
Joshua Hoffert
But we get the prayer of examine all the way back to the Desert Fathers.

01;08;56;04 - 01;09;00;22
Murray Dueck
Okay, There we go. Well, I even. I think the cobbler was kind of doing it, too. Evening. And Morning. You know.

01;09;00;26 - 01;09;02;17
Joshua Hoffert
You. You know, it's true.

01;09;02;20 - 01;09;25;18
Murray Dueck
So great book, everybody. By a guy named Charles Bellow. He was a vineyard overseer and he's he goes through the in a very modern way so we're just throw that out there called prayer is a place great you know if you're looking for a good resource but so prayer of examined basically at the end of the day and I'm going to quote it now Charles Bellow maybe would lay this out because it's fairly an ancient form.

01;09;25;20 - 01;09;47;16
Murray Dueck
So we'll call it the highs and the lows. That's what we should call it. There are other words for this, of course, but we'll just modernize that. So at the end of your day, so try this though. So think of it in context of, you know, quoting Silwan one earlier, you know, walk over to the abyss and look down and then take three steps and have to think, just think about that.

01;09;47;22 - 01;10;05;11
Murray Dueck
So the one you want to look at the highs of your day, what what drew you closer to the Lord? What was your high point? You know, where God, you just felt like God touched you somehow could could just or you feel good about yourself, you know, and take some time, sit with the Lord with that, bring it up, Lord, what was the high point of the day?

01;10;05;11 - 01;10;36;00
Murray Dueck
You could even ask. Good Lord, what was your high point? You could do it that way. But you know, what was the high point? And just sit with the Lord in it and let him love you. Just let him love you and and just what that feels like. You know, what you're experiencing the love of God. Okay? And then when you're done that, go to your low point of your day where maybe you cut somebody off in traffic or maybe your critical or maybe you're too hard on yourself, or maybe, you know, and then bring that up before the Jesus.

01;10;36;02 - 01;11;00;18
Murray Dueck
Right. And let him love you exactly the same way instead of going, Oh, what a loser I'm so broken. Oh, I hate myself for that. Allow yourself to be vulnerable. Allow yourself to be open and then allow God to love you with his love the same way he loved you on your high. Because if we just let him love us on our high, we're still working for it.

01;11;00;18 - 01;11;22;11
Murray Dueck
I did really good. So now we deserve love instead of, you know what? I can earn this anyway. Lord, I'm kind of broken. I see my screw up. I'm just going to hold this in your presence. Please love me. And you know what he's going to do? He's going to come in love on you, and then you'll realize it's not about you earning it or doing anything.

01;11;22;13 - 01;11;42;29
Murray Dueck
It's about you seeing it. Yes, it is. It's about you transforming. Yes, it is. But he's going to take care of those things in the midst of his love. And then the judgment. You have on yourself will slowly fall away. And also what other people think about you will also slowly fall away because you're seeing your stuff in the of God.

01;11;43;01 - 01;11;44;08
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;11;44;10 - 01;11;47;03
Murray Dueck
And you practice that all the time.

01;11;47;05 - 01;11;56;04
Joshua Hoffert
One of my favorite forms of the Jesus prayer, you know, Lord Jesus, have mercy on me is Lord Jesus Christ. Let me know your tenderness.

01;11;56;07 - 01;11;57;11
Murray Dueck
Oh, that's so good.

01;11;57;14 - 01;12;07;20
Joshua Hoffert
Because that's the word for mercy is essentially tenderness. And let me your tenderness. So in the midst of when I in my low point, let me know your tenderness In my high point, let me know your tenderness.

01;12;07;20 - 01;12;08;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

01;12;08;17 - 01;12;12;07
Joshua Hoffert
Because his life taking shape in me is what's important.

01;12;12;10 - 01;12;32;24
Murray Dueck
Brilliant. I like that. I'm going to. I'm going to do that myself. Because it's funny in our culture when sometimes if I'm doing good, I realize mercy means kindness, tenderness. And when I'm doing bad, I tend to go, Oh, God, have mercy on me. Don't tell me I deserve it. I'm flip. I flip back into kind of a, you know, yesterday.

01;12;32;26 - 01;12;33;22
Murray Dueck
So that's brilliant.

01;12;33;22 - 01;12;39;22
Joshua Hoffert
So very good. But what we'll have to do some more talk on humility because we've just scratched the surface.

01;12;39;24 - 01;12;45;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Didn't even get into the book. Final Quest. We're going to talk about that.

01;12;45;09 - 01;12;58;17
Joshua Hoffert
I know, but humility begins an encounter and you know, using our charismatic lingo, it's a participation. The Orthodox guys would say it's a participation in the divine energy of God.

01;12;58;17 - 01;13;01;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah, we need to talk about do what that means.

01;13;01;04 - 01;13;02;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yes, it's we're.

01;13;02;08 - 01;13;03;23
Murray Dueck
Going to do it. We never got there.

01;13;03;26 - 01;13;13;12
Joshua Hoffert
And, you know, as a as a tying back into the to all the episodes we did on the Oasis, which is kind of a constant theme because it is the journey.

01;13;13;15 - 01;13;13;27
Murray Dueck
That's right.

01;13;13;27 - 01;13;33;24
Joshua Hoffert
It's humility. It's not so much something you do or accomplish, it's what you become out of a shared union with the heart of God. And as I peered some period into something that I don't understand and I'm constantly trying to assimilate it.

01;13;33;27 - 01;13;35;24
Murray Dueck
Hey, man. Yeah.

01;13;35;26 - 01;13;47;23
Joshua Hoffert
Well, we're so happy you guys have tuned in and you get to listen to Murray and I meander and have the conversations we love having, and so we're glad that you guys are part of that.

01;13;47;23 - 01;13;50;01
Murray Dueck
And thank you for coming along on Journey.

01;13;50;02 - 01;14;14;11
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Check. Check out everything I'm doing it Win Ministries. Yeah that's wind with the Wind Ministries dossier and check out everything Murray's doing at Samuel's mental XCOM at us on Facebook. You can search Murray Duke, That's just for you. It's Bill Murray and then you c k Yeah, you can search Joshua hoffert h0ffert on Facebook and I'm sure you'll find us there.

01;14;14;11 - 01;14;31;19
Joshua Hoffert
And so follow us and send us a message. Let us know what your are on humility and how the Lord has been challenging you lately. And we'd love to have a conversation. And so we next week I think we have a guest.

01;14;31;22 - 01;14;33;02
Murray Dueck
Oh great.

01;14;33;04 - 01;14;55;28
Joshua Hoffert
And if the cards all align, which it looks like they are, we'll be having a conversation. And with a very good Anglican friend of mine about communion from the various different theological perspectives, the Eucharist and so this would be this would be a great thing. So looking forward to it all and we'll see you next time.

01;14;56;00 - 01;14;57;03
Murray Dueck
Until next time.

01;14;57;05 - 01;15;04;04
Joshua Hoffert
And you probably just heard my youngest one in the background, so maybe not, but he's wondering when I'm going to be done.

01;15;04;04 - 01;15;07;23
Murray Dueck
So great. That's beneath him. Humility. He needs to play Lego.

01;15;07;25 - 01;15;10;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right? So I'll get everybody by.