What would a healthy expression of prophetic ministry look like today? How does church history inform who we are and how we are today? Join Murray and Josh as they breakdown a prophetic manifesto for the modern church. On the docket for today: prophetic ministry ought to be known for a robust interpretation of scripture and the primary function of prophecy is to reveal the heart of God.
The seven marks of historic prophetic ministry (The Prophetic Manifesto):
- The reputation of Macarius the Great.
- The Desert Fathers (aka the prophets in the church) were sought for their great understanding of Scripture.
- The primary function of prophetic ministry is to reveal the nature of God/heart of Christ. A secondary/tertiary function is telling the future.
- An intense regards for humility, solitude, and silence (see the aforementioned Macarius)
- A hesitancy to use a gift to build a platform. Prophets/those in prophetic ministry ought to desire to be hidden rather than seen and to see the gift used in hidden ways.
- De-shackling the function of prophecy from end-times eschatology
- A healthier understanding of 5-fold ministry (admitting that we don't know what we are talking about). How has it been applied in ages past?
For more about Joshua Hoffert visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
For more about Murray Dueck visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
Eden's Way Farm Sanctuary: https://edenswayfarmsanctuary.ca/
Leadership Mentorship: https://www.windtrainingacademy.com/becoming-a-better-leader-mentorship-program
Dream Interpretation Mentorship: https://www.windtrainingacademy.com/dream-interpretation-mentorship
What would a healthy expression of prophetic ministry look like today? How does church history inform who we are and how we are today? Join Murray and Josh as they breakdown a prophetic manifesto for the modern church. On the docket for today: prophetic ministry ought to be known for a robust interpretation of scripture and the primary function of prophecy is to reveal the heart of God.
The seven marks of historic prophetic ministry (The Prophetic Manifesto):
- The reputation of Macarius the Great.
- The Desert Fathers (aka the prophets in the church) were sought for their great understanding of Scripture.
- The primary function of prophetic ministry is to reveal the nature of God/heart of Christ. A secondary/tertiary function is telling the future.
- An intense regards for humility, solitude, and silence (see the aforementioned Macarius)
- A hesitancy to use a gift to build a platform. Prophets/those in prophetic ministry ought to desire to be hidden rather than seen and to see the gift used in hidden ways.
- De-shackling the function of prophecy from end-times eschatology
- A healthier understanding of 5-fold ministry (admitting that we don't know what we are talking about). How has it been applied in ages past?
For more about Joshua Hoffert visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
For more about Murray Dueck visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
Eden's Way Farm Sanctuary: https://edenswayfarmsanctuary.ca/
Leadership Mentorship: https://www.windtrainingacademy.com/becoming-a-better-leader-mentorship-program
Dream Interpretation Mentorship: https://www.windtrainingacademy.com/dream-interpretation-mentorship
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Joshua Hoffert
Hey, Voices from the Desert Listeners. This is Joshua Hoffert, one of your co-hosts. I want to take a second to let you know about two upcoming mentorships that we are hosting. The first one is called Becoming a Better Leader. And in this mentorship, you'll learn how to determine your core values disciple. Others become a joy filled leader to develop joy filled people.
00;00;31;23 - 00;00;53;12
Joshua Hoffert
And in the second one, it's a dream interpretation, mentorship with hands on training, lots of practical exercise, lots of practical application. And if you're working with other people in both mentorships to grow and develop as a leader and as a dream interpreter, so those are two separate mentorships. They start November eight and they're every Wednesday, and you can find more information at links in the podcast description.
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Joshua Hoffert
Without further ado, let's get to the podcast.
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Murray Dueck
Welcome, everyone, to In the Desert and.
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Murray Dueck
Desert.
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Joshua Hoffert
And eight in the dog is like too old enough to really start.
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Murray Dueck
Well.
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Murray Dueck
I was thinking of maybe actually just now recording because he does do. He's quite a howler.
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Murray Dueck
there you go.
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Murray Dueck
16 weeks old. 17 weeks. And I bet you he weighs at 17 weeks. £60.
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Joshua Hoffert
He's a doe. I saw. He's an adorable puppy. It's like I can see him on the video, guys, where Murray and I see each other via video, but you may not see us, though Murray also has a few new kittens as well.
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Murray Dueck
Yes.
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Murray Dueck
So and they're having to learn how to get along. And that's.
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Murray Dueck
Been quite a.
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Joshua Hoffert
Metaphor of church life, isn't it?
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Murray Dueck
Yes. Cats and dogs. I'm Tanya. Yeah. I just know firsthand. It's a great.
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Joshua Hoffert
You're different than me. I'm not sure if I like you.
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Murray Dueck
That's why. Is your tongue the size of my head?
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Murray Dueck
Exactly. Then, yes.
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Joshua Hoffert
Unfortunately.
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Murray Dueck
The cats in the dog, their mouths like. Yeah, Yeah. Well, the.
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Joshua Hoffert
Cats and the dogs. Unlike the church, people generally learn how to get along.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah, they're working on it.
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Murray Dueck
They're working on it.
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Joshua Hoffert
We are. We are. The church people work on it. We do. That's true.
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Murray Dueck
And since they're black cats, when is sleeping? At night. They sneak up on and whack him in the head. So you know that that can.
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Murray Dueck
Be another.
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Joshua Hoffert
Metaphor for church life as well.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah.
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Murray Dueck
I was thinking about that. Yeah, absolutely. So.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;02;25;07 - 00;02;30;12
Murray Dueck
They're working it out. So. But yeah, if you want to see more, go to Eden's Way Farm Sanctuary.
00;02;30;12 - 00;02;36;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You really should check it out. Maybe. Maybe even put in a request to come stay and volunteer with you guys right now.
00;02;36;14 - 00;02;45;14
Murray Dueck
Can you even do that? Yeah, we have a room up. A room where we'll meet with people, and if they want us to pray or do life coaching or spiritual direction, we're here for you.
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Murray Dueck
So you good, right?
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Joshua Hoffert
We'll put the link in the in the podcast description.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah.
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Murray Dueck
And Samuel's mantel is kind of the the other end of that of the two things that I seem to be do. But anyway, Josh, let's go back to moving away from metaphors. Although we're pathetic people, we tend to you can.
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Joshua Hoffert
Dovetail back in.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah.
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Murray Dueck
So, you know, we've took a couple of weeks. Josh has been traveling. He's been in India since last time we talked. He's been in Singapore just, you know, follow in the Lord. And you know what? Maybe we'll hear more about that next week because I guess first we talked about my animals. Next week we'll talk to Josh about.
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Murray Dueck
There we go.
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Murray Dueck
People's Animal Heart.
00;03;25;14 - 00;03;26;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;03;26;17 - 00;03;47;27
Murray Dueck
We'll talk about his trip, but we want to spend some time getting back into the saddle here because we've had a couple of weeks off now and we want to go back to that, that the manifesto that Josh has written because we've got some good comments on that and it seems like people are, you know, they're appreciative. I'm not sure everyone agrees, but a lot of people are writing.
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Murray Dueck
Thank you. And and and, you know, as we go through it, you'll probably figure out why. So we want to get back on the bus here and and continue onward. So Josh, over to you to read through it and we'll get back into deep water here.
00;04;01;13 - 00;04;21;28
Joshua Hoffert
Well, and we're not with with with all the things that we're saying here, Right. We're not we're not trying to offer the fact, though, this is how it should be or this is how it has to be. What we've what we've been trying to do in and this has been now I kind of I think it's spiraled out of control really for us.
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Joshua Hoffert
Right.
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Murray Dueck
We started talking about prophecy and yeah, we should.
00;04;25;15 - 00;04;30;07
Murray Dueck
Be talking about desert father stuff and we're both back into our alma matter.
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Murray Dueck
That's.
00;04;30;27 - 00;04;34;03
Murray Dueck
Got our wagon wheels back in the into talking what we want to talk about.
00;04;34;03 - 00;05;01;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right. So and so. Yeah. Like I said, it's spiraled out of control. It we just we initially started talking about the, the prophecy and the how that all the church practice prophecy in history. Right. And now we've been talking about how how does that offer us some insight into what we, how we can practice it today maybe how what it should look like today, what it might look like today, what it looks like today, and what what are some problems that we see today.
00;05;01;03 - 00;05;22;26
Joshua Hoffert
So that's we've just been kind of working through that. We had our good friend Eric Janzen on who talked about his book Ponder a Way to process prophetic words. Really, really good. I loved his language of encountering the father's heart as the litmus test for does a prophecy land or not just just some wonderful stuff. Some of our you some of you guys have been listening.
00;05;22;26 - 00;05;32;15
Joshua Hoffert
You've listened to at this point, probably both the episodes with Matt Esquivel on a Theology of Martyrdom in Augustine.
00;05;32;18 - 00;05;33;23
Murray Dueck
Alleluia. Yes.
00;05;33;23 - 00;05;39;21
Joshua Hoffert
Hallelujah. That's right. And and so that's just we love Matt and what Matt is.
00;05;39;22 - 00;05;40;19
Murray Dueck
Now so good.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, so, so good.
00;05;42;00 - 00;05;58;27
Murray Dueck
It really actually healed some of my paradigms of stuff I was taught in my back in the day at my Mennonite Bible school. Right. Did not know we're kicking around my soul about Saint Augustine. And he was quite a quite a seer encounter guy in the end of his life. Like pretty a pretty amazing.
00;05;58;29 - 00;06;13;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Well, we're I'm just just one reflection is he taught Matt talks about how there are there are stories of Augustine stomping mid sermon to practice deliverance in the middle of church so it's church services.
00;06;13;24 - 00;06;14;21
Murray Dueck
Right And.
00;06;14;21 - 00;06;26;04
Joshua Hoffert
He's like how the guy was thoroughly charismatic in the sense of seeing the supernatural happen, right? And and integrated into church life and integrated to his own life. So anyway, he's got.
00;06;26;04 - 00;06;33;29
Murray Dueck
Some of the best quotes too. Like, like his early one before he got saved. He was just about saved. He said, God, give me chastity. But not yet.
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Joshua Hoffert
And when you said that, Matt said, You might not have really said that.
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Murray Dueck
I think it's quite historically document.
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Murray Dueck
It could be.
00;06;41;29 - 00;06;52;19
Murray Dueck
You look it up, everyone. You could see you get it right do some research on the other one is like I won't get it quite right but it's pretty brilliant. God first thought us so that we might learn to see God.
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Joshua Hoffert
that's a good one.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah, Yeah, that's a good one.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. His. His. I mean, the confessions of Augustine are full of quotable moments. So many.
00;07;01;27 - 00;07;23;28
Murray Dueck
everyone. Yeah. Please, please enjoy that. I again, it's so encouraging to see again, you know, from my, you know, Mennonite brethren background, which, you know, I always joke that we're Baptists without guns. You know, we're we're pretty similar. We're pacifists. But how we're taught, how we were brought up, right? Except when you play hockey, then you pass the fish.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah. There you go. yeah.
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Joshua Hoffert
For for our American friends, hockey is a little game that Canadians play to pass the time away when it's super cold outside.
00;07;34;08 - 00;07;59;03
Murray Dueck
Well, pretty much I'll give you that. That's probably true. Yeah, we could argue about this, but in the end, I don't think my position is defensible. But ever so. So basically my, my point there is that, you know, theologically speaking as a as the evangelical mindset of of how we're taught, you know, church history begins in some ways.
00;07;59;03 - 00;08;05;01
Murray Dueck
There's a church, there's a canon canonization of the Bible. And then suddenly Luther.
00;08;05;03 - 00;08;07;19
Murray Dueck
And everything around. Right, right, right.
00;08;07;22 - 00;08;27;23
Murray Dueck
And and to see the Holy Spirit functioning throughout church history, never talking, training the bride being with the bride, developing the bride and all of these people. And we skip them and and we skip so much, we're not just skipping them. We're skipping the work of the Holy Spirit upon the earth.
00;08;27;24 - 00;08;28;15
Murray Dueck
Right.
00;08;28;17 - 00;08;44;10
Murray Dueck
And and you know what? It these people, their own churches came against them because they were fighting fighting for leaving out the charismatic experience of what? Being filled with the Holy Spirit and having a personal relationship with God.
00;08;44;11 - 00;08;45;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's right.
00;08;45;08 - 00;09;06;04
Murray Dueck
And and that's why, you know, people like Augustine, from our point of view, from who do enjoy action and our I can say is an important person. And anyway, as father would say, and I'm sure Father Mike would say, he's quoting someone else here, religion is not the worship of ashes. It's a preservation of fire.
00;09;06;06 - 00;09;07;11
Murray Dueck
That's right. There you go.
00;09;07;11 - 00;09;11;01
Joshua Hoffert
As a really good one. Yeah. That's not an original to Father Mike.
00;09;11;03 - 00;09;13;09
Murray Dueck
Encapsulated very well. Yeah.
00;09;13;11 - 00;09;36;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's very good. Yeah. And you know our hardest obviously to it with all this stuff when it comes to prophecy is just to, to introduce the you the listener to maybe two ways of thinking about the nature of prophecy and the function of prophecy within the context of the contemporary church, things that you may not have thought about before or where you've gone.
00;09;36;04 - 00;10;00;06
Joshua Hoffert
Something about this doesn't seem right. You know, Mary was talking about some friends of his that reached out to him and said, we've been hearing some of these things these other people have been saying and or something about it. Right. Didn't seem just seemed off. And so we're trying to have a broader conversation that's not denigrating to any particular prophetic ministry or person, because that's not our goal.
00;10;00;06 - 00;10;21;07
Joshua Hoffert
Our goal is to look at the practice of prophecy and and let it inform how we practice it today. And our goal is not to get anybody to change our goals, to put good, good insight and information out there that we think the Holy Spirit will breathe on and will help. We'll help shape how we practice prophecy going forward.
00;10;21;07 - 00;10;31;05
Joshua Hoffert
So that's, you know, the language of manifesto, maybe a little. You know, there's a little sometimes Mary and I could be a little racy. Maybe I'm the one who's a little racy.
00;10;31;07 - 00;10;32;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I'm. Yeah.
00;10;32;17 - 00;10;40;23
Murray Dueck
No, but that's not entirely true. If we were if we were to record half of the things that we talk about for an.
00;10;40;23 - 00;10;41;19
Murray Dueck
Hour, just say it on the.
00;10;41;19 - 00;10;43;13
Joshua Hoffert
Recording more than Mary does. That's.
00;10;43;13 - 00;10;44;10
Murray Dueck
That's the difference.
00;10;44;10 - 00;10;50;23
Murray Dueck
I get it all up beforehand, you see know right? While you wait today we get record and it becomes well.
00;10;50;23 - 00;11;13;02
Joshua Hoffert
The problem is you you have shaped how my news thinks you think it is. It's coming out though we were talking about doing a whole series on the news in the makeup of mankind. So we might we might do that as well. So anyway, getting back to the topic at hand, we're talking about the practice of prophecy in a contemporary context, looking at the history of prophecy and how it's been practiced.
00;11;13;04 - 00;11;51;25
Joshua Hoffert
So the what, what I put together and Mary's largely in agreement with the list is seven marks that we might consider healthy expressions of prophetic ministry today as informed by what we see in church history. And so in in the last episode where we were talking about prophecy, you know, before you listened to their Jansen interview, before you listened to the Matt Esquibel interviews, you can go back to the episode called The Manifesto a prophetic manifesto, because this is a follow up on the seven marks Are that prophecy be known by the reputation of MacQuarrie?
00;11;51;25 - 00;11;59;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yes, and we we I mean, the bulk of the episode that we did before is pulling apart the reputation of vicarious Coleman.
00;11;59;28 - 00;12;01;09
Murray Dueck
Back there pre everybody you can.
00;12;01;09 - 00;12;28;27
Joshua Hoffert
Back there for you Pullman Pullman shares a very affectionate very affectionate language about the mark that Mccarrick's left on the people he led. And then we also talked about how the the desert fathers and to a greater degree than the the prophets or prophetic movement in church history, which is really preserved through the monastic communities. And that's where we see it practiced.
00;12;29;01 - 00;12;40;26
Joshua Hoffert
Almost all the contemplative authors on the Orthodox or the Catholic side throughout church history have usually have something to say about prophetic revelation.
00;12;40;28 - 00;12;41;18
Murray Dueck
Yeah, absolutely.
00;12;41;21 - 00;12;42;18
Joshua Hoffert
You know, and it's still.
00;12;42;18 - 00;12;44;13
Murray Dueck
Going on in those like in the.
00;12;44;15 - 00;12;45;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah, for sure.
00;12;45;23 - 00;13;11;09
Murray Dueck
You know the people I Broughton connect with I mean Father Mike's my main connection you know so you know these guys in there as Father Mike said when we talked with him on the oasis I love the quote I it makes me chuckle all the time. We have guys that that glow in the dark and smoke do, but we also have people after church service go sit in the back of the church steps and smoke.
00;13;11;11 - 00;13;14;19
Murray Dueck
Right? Yeah, I love that. But yeah.
00;13;14;24 - 00;13;34;03
Murray Dueck
Put it together. But yeah, you know, they don't it's just interesting that, that their church culture never stopped thinking that. What do you mean? Like, God, good talking. Like, how could you ever believe that? Like, how? Like, that's. That's a ridiculous notion. Matter of fact, if you know, Josh and I have been listening, it'd be be worth your time.
00;13;34;03 - 00;13;42;10
Murray Dueck
Everybody. There's a guy named Bishop Irini Steinberg, and you know you he takes his first name off erroneous.
00;13;42;12 - 00;13;45;15
Murray Dueck
Either E and the.
00;13;45;18 - 00;13;49;05
Joshua Hoffert
Irony is I r and I think ah e.
00;13;49;07 - 00;13;50;15
Murray Dueck
I think.
00;13;50;18 - 00;13;51;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah yeah bird.
00;13;52;01 - 00;14;10;28
Murray Dueck
On mysticism and he and he's teaching in a university and it's a three part series really worth your time. But he starts out by saying, you know, I told my spiritual father who's a monk, that I was going to speak in a university and he goes and he was so aghast by it, he only gave me his blessing if I.
00;14;11;01 - 00;14;28;12
Murray Dueck
What did he say? If I if I promise to make sure I put this in the context of It's not about your head, it's about me. That's the only reason you even give is because because their their concern is in our Western culture. Again, if you get a degree or go to a conference or a seminar, we think we know it.
00;14;28;18 - 00;14;29;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;14;29;14 - 00;14;46;24
Murray Dueck
But, but for the for the desert father, for the Orthodox guy's a a theologian is one who sees God. Right. So and so, you know, you know, he says the fear is, is that I'm going to come and tell you these things and that now because you sat here, you think you know, but you don't know.
00;14;46;24 - 00;14;47;17
Murray Dueck
Right? Right.
00;14;47;17 - 00;15;14;04
Murray Dueck
And that's the fallen nature for for all of us. And for them, it's a big deal. And and I'll just quote this one last thought there. This lady goes to see a monk and she says to him, I've been reading Saint Maximus the Confessor. And he goes, You've been reading Saint Maximus. How then will you be saved? And the point being, you know, saved there mean working out your salvation, you know, being disciple, that's that.
00;15;14;07 - 00;15;47;08
Murray Dueck
You know, as evangelicals or charismatics, we would put those words in there. But the point is, his fear is, well, now that you've read it, you think you know it. But you haven't actually walked the life to understand what he's actually talking about. And and and that's kind of even getting back to the manifesto to understand, you know, for all of us as we as we journey with the Lord, I mean, I'm sure all of you look back now, unless you're 20 years old watching, you're looking back at life as a 40 year old going, if you could go back and talk to your 15 year old, you, what would you say?
00;15;47;12 - 00;15;48;29
Murray Dueck
Right. Right.
00;15;49;01 - 00;16;11;10
Murray Dueck
And you would go, Man, I wish I would have known these things because because there's wisdom and then there's knowledge. Right. And and, you know, without the wisdom of the church having walked with the spirit all the time, we think the knowledge is enough. If I just read it in a book, if I just but but even in our own lives, all we have to do is go back.
00;16;11;13 - 00;16;27;10
Murray Dueck
You know, I honestly think I would like to do a poll on this if I would go back in my life every seven years and I could go back like the the the 1984 version of me for Youth of the Mission could go back to the high school version of me. And I say, guess what? God speaks today.
00;16;27;13 - 00;16;46;05
Murray Dueck
I would go, What are you crazy? You know? And if the 1994 version in me, which was Toronto airport renewal, could go back to the 1984 version to me, and I go, Guess what? You're going to be flopping on the ground and barking like a dog. You know which which. Okay. That I mean, I'm being facetious. I got massively healed when the spirit touched me in Toronto.
00;16;46;05 - 00;17;01;16
Murray Dueck
Massively. You know, we won't get into that. And then if I could go back to the 2000 version of me after burn out learning about symbolism, and I could tell the 1994 version, to me it was all about revival. And I would go, Guess what? It's not really about that. What are you talking about?
00;17;01;19 - 00;17;02;16
Murray Dueck
Like, Right.
00;17;02;18 - 00;17;14;23
Murray Dueck
And I can go through my life like that, right? And, and and the thing is, we've taken the history of church where all this progress has happened, and we said, it doesn't matter. I just got to go take a course.
00;17;14;25 - 00;17;16;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's right.
00;17;16;06 - 00;17;35;01
Murray Dueck
And it just isn't like that. And then, and then that's what's happening in some ways with the prophetic today, you know, you know, let's are we not listening to those who've walked with the spirit through through decades and decades and decades of just being with God. And we're not hearing their voices and then we're writing books going, well, you know what?
00;17;35;01 - 00;17;38;20
Murray Dueck
We should be calling it down fire and brimstone, because that's what prophets do.
00;17;38;23 - 00;17;39;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;17;39;23 - 00;18;00;02
Murray Dueck
Is that the history of the church is that the wisdom garnered by the Holy Spirit. So. So that's why these manifestos, I think, is very important because we're basically taking an overview. And if you read Joshua's work on the Desert Fathers and Mothers, it really is brilliant. Go to Go to the Wind website, read these guys his lives.
00;18;00;05 - 00;18;22;06
Murray Dueck
Because because you look at the context we're Josh is pulling from these these points. Right. And it's taking the wisdom of history and again, you know, religion is not the worship of ashes. It's a preservation of fire. There's preservation of fire there. And it comes out in this manifesto and that's why it's important to meet. So I got in a bit of a rant there.
00;18;22;06 - 00;18;26;00
Murray Dueck
I'm drinking coffee and Matty at the same time, very dangerous.
00;18;26;05 - 00;18;27;11
Murray Dueck
Very dangerous combination.
00;18;27;11 - 00;18;29;14
Murray Dueck
But I'm I'm very passionate about this.
00;18;29;14 - 00;18;30;15
Murray Dueck
So, yeah.
00;18;30;17 - 00;18;44;13
Murray Dueck
Your position is important based on because we need wisdom and revelation. That's the spirit gives both of those things. And if you're applying wisdom without revelation, it's like you're driving a bicycle with one tire. You know, you need both of those things.
00;18;44;15 - 00;19;11;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, You know, it's an observation around the, the popularization of spiritual formation and spiritual formation practices and the language of spiritual formation. there's a little kitten right now that Marie is playing with, just so everybody knows. Very, very true. One, that the popularization of spiritual formation in the language of discipline, words and formative practices and things like that is becoming odd.
00;19;11;13 - 00;19;41;11
Joshua Hoffert
You know that you even Mary, talking about being a spirit, doing spiritual direction, is becoming a very popular pastime for people, especially pastors. And and it's good. I'm not critiquing at all in that sense. I think it's a good thing. What my one observation is that sometimes it because it becomes intellectual, It's we read a book, we study some stuff on silence and solitude and go, well, okay, to be a Christian, we spend time in silence and solitude and prayer.
00;19;41;25 - 00;19;44;03
Joshua Hoffert
that was something just fell over.
00;19;44;12 - 00;19;45;01
Murray Dueck
my God.
00;19;45;01 - 00;19;46;10
Murray Dueck
You guys, you actually heard that on the.
00;19;46;10 - 00;19;49;29
Murray Dueck
Mic? I could hear that like, okay, maybe.
00;19;49;29 - 00;19;52;13
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe on the recording. I'll amplify it times ten.
00;19;52;22 - 00;19;54;08
Murray Dueck
my goodness.
00;19;54;11 - 00;19;57;21
Murray Dueck
Even the dog Woodside heard it. No, I went in on this.
00;19;57;21 - 00;20;01;20
Murray Dueck
What happened? Yeah, there was some, some calamitous thing.
00;20;01;23 - 00;20;05;05
Murray Dueck
You know, cats, when they go into the crazy kit mode and two of them at the same time.
00;20;05;12 - 00;20;09;00
Murray Dueck
yeah, yeah. Collision. So well.
00;20;09;00 - 00;20;35;22
Joshua Hoffert
So when we intellectualize the the practice of solitude for instance and what's a is a thing that we do, we write, we've read about it, we've studied it, it's a thing that we do, we add it into our current practices. And a lot of the the reason it's sold to us is because we experience anxiety and fear and depression, the chaos of the inner life.
00;20;35;22 - 00;21;02;10
Joshua Hoffert
So practice solitude and that'll help. Well, the reason to practice solitude is not to be disciplined or not to do another thing or not, because that's what the Christian does. The reason solitude is a thing is because solitude creates space for the other. Being the father to be with me, for me to recognize his presence. That's solitude is simply the result of wanting to be next to him and being with him.
00;21;02;13 - 00;21;22;14
Joshua Hoffert
And and so, you know, there's just there's just things that there's a language and concepts that we're that we're trying to grasp that we can't just make them intellectual, just like we're talking about with prophecy. We can't just make it an intellectual exercise. But this is this is what we read a verse and it says, This is what it's about.
00;21;22;14 - 00;21;43;12
Joshua Hoffert
So this is what it's about. So that's what we're talking about. But so let's let's Marie, let's do this about the manifesto. Let's just let me keep I only got to the first two. When we start we started talking about it. You're muted more by the way. Murray muted himself.
00;21;43;14 - 00;21;44;27
Murray Dueck
Yes, I'm here now.
00;21;44;27 - 00;21;50;22
Joshua Hoffert
He's here. Yeah. So the I, I got I didn't. I don't think you.
00;21;50;22 - 00;21;52;18
Murray Dueck
Want me to have a mute button.
00;21;52;20 - 00;21;53;19
Murray Dueck
And yeah.
00;21;53;20 - 00;22;17;03
Joshua Hoffert
That'd be good. I would if I had a mute button, who would I mute. And I won't say so that the first part that okay going back to that prophecy would carry with it the reputation of vicarious. The second one is that that the desert fathers were known and sought for their defense of Scripture when there were theological disagreements.
00;22;17;05 - 00;22;35;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So Augustine Athanasius actually Euphemia was another one. Anthony Saint Anthony was another one. There's yes, like a number of them are sought for insight into the scriptures in regards to the nature of God, especially as it pertains to the.
00;22;35;17 - 00;22;35;24
Murray Dueck
Saints.
00;22;35;24 - 00;22;37;02
Murray Dueck
In the New Theologian.
00;22;37;05 - 00;22;37;22
Murray Dueck
Exactly.
00;22;37;22 - 00;22;43;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. So and you know, with Bardem and.
00;22;43;15 - 00;22;44;18
Murray Dueck
I was just trying to think about.
00;22;44;18 - 00;22;47;07
Murray Dueck
That Bardem and gone.
00;22;47;10 - 00;22;49;09
Joshua Hoffert
What's his name?
00;22;49;12 - 00;22;51;02
Murray Dueck
The Divine like.
00;22;51;05 - 00;22;54;06
Joshua Hoffert
Gregory Pablo Yeah. This is an Orthodox guy's right with.
00;22;54;06 - 00;22;55;06
Murray Dueck
A huge wart.
00;22;55;06 - 00;22;56;04
Murray Dueck
On that.
00;22;56;06 - 00;22;57;12
Murray Dueck
Very important study.
00;22;57;12 - 00;22;58;16
Joshua Hoffert
So, so.
00;22;58;19 - 00;22;59;14
Murray Dueck
Present day.
00;22;59;14 - 00;23;24;29
Joshua Hoffert
Contemporary prophetic ministry is not known for its robust appreciation of scripture. And I'll tell you one of the reasons why we we don't we dove into this. I just want to throw one thing out there. The let's see, there is I've got a quote here and let's see. I'm not going to tell you who the quotes by because it's just I'm going to critique it.
00;23;25;02 - 00;23;29;14
Joshua Hoffert
So I'm just going to talk because it's not important. It's not it's not it's not important who the quotes by.
00;23;29;19 - 00;23;31;07
Murray Dueck
But you're going to tell me later, though, right?
00;23;31;10 - 00;23;35;17
Joshua Hoffert
The concept. It's the concept. And that's why I have the quote. It's the concept.
00;23;35;20 - 00;23;36;21
Murray Dueck
Okay.
00;23;36;23 - 00;23;45;25
Joshua Hoffert
And if people want to dive into it, they can see who is by. I don't really have a problem with the person who wrote this, but I just I'm not trying to call the person out. That's why I just want the code out there, right?
00;23;45;28 - 00;23;47;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;23;47;13 - 00;24;06;26
Joshua Hoffert
Says the quotations. There are Old and New Testament prophetic scriptures, which must be must be fulfilled before Christ can return. Okay. The prophets have been given the anointing and responsibility to receive from Christ the proper revelation and application of these Scriptures. They are hidden from the eyes of men until God's time for that truth to be restored and established.
00;24;06;28 - 00;24;09;23
Joshua Hoffert
I have a huge problem with that, because that.
00;24;09;25 - 00;24;10;23
Murray Dueck
That.
00;24;10;25 - 00;24;12;14
Murray Dueck
Everything I said about wisdom and.
00;24;12;21 - 00;24;31;15
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly it's now our now it's up to the spurious interpretation of a prophet to tell us what the scriptures actually mean and how they apply to the the coming of Christ and the end times plan. Because this the new check, the new old, the New Testament, prophetic scriptures have to be fulfilled before Christ.
00;24;31;17 - 00;24;33;05
Murray Dueck
Fingers on the chalkboard. To me it.
00;24;33;05 - 00;24;51;27
Joshua Hoffert
Really is, because then the anointing and responsibility of prophetic ministry is to reveal the application of the scriptures. That's not true. The the the anointing and responsibility of prophetic ministry is to reveal the heart of Christ and the nature of the Father and point the church back to him. That that is what we insert.
00;24;51;29 - 00;25;02;15
Murray Dueck
You know, insert the scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail of of of the peasants going, How did you become king then? Did someone lobbies cemetery at you? I mean.
00;25;02;18 - 00;25;03;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah.
00;25;03;21 - 00;25;10;21
Murray Dueck
I mean so what makes somebody a prophet then, you know, how did you become a prophet. The lady of the Lake clan.
00;25;10;24 - 00;25;13;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah, right. Some crazy lady.
00;25;13;23 - 00;25;16;15
Joshua Hoffert
Offering up swords from the bottom of a lake.
00;25;16;18 - 00;25;17;05
Murray Dueck
That's right.
00;25;17;05 - 00;25;20;27
Murray Dueck
It's a no no system of justice.
00;25;20;29 - 00;25;21;16
Murray Dueck
Like.
00;25;21;18 - 00;25;23;10
Joshua Hoffert
No system of governance.
00;25;23;13 - 00;25;26;03
Murray Dueck
How did you become king, then? Well.
00;25;26;05 - 00;25;29;02
Murray Dueck
That's just got some water. Retard. Threw a sword at me.
00;25;29;02 - 00;25;29;16
Murray Dueck
That's right.
00;25;29;16 - 00;25;30;12
Joshua Hoffert
Water retard through.
00;25;30;12 - 00;25;32;03
Murray Dueck
It's learned. That's right. That's what he said.
00;25;32;03 - 00;25;33;09
Murray Dueck
It put me away.
00;25;33;11 - 00;25;34;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;25;34;22 - 00;25;59;23
Murray Dueck
So, I mean, and the reason you know, so those of you don't mean to be that that offended you just you just have to have to realize that again. You know what I said about wisdom before? I mean, if you look at a book like The Critical Journey, which we should talk about that more. But but, you know, the church has always believed in stages of life growth, predation, illumination, deification, predation, purge.
00;25;59;23 - 00;26;20;22
Murray Dueck
You know, deal with your junk stage illumination. Hey, you're starting to get it. Do you have occasion? You're becoming like, Christ, you know, John Wesley Glorification. I know how to go against sanctification. Just justification, sanctification, glorification. It just changes the words out. Yeah, but, but so for example, if you don't understand, there's going to be a division of your soul and spirit.
00;26;20;27 - 00;26;57;26
Murray Dueck
The sword. If you don't understand that, that let's say Joseph, you know, he gets the king, the dream of his brothers bowing down 13 years in slavery, David prophesied over, He's going to be the next king. Three and a half years being chased. You know, if you don't understand that process and you're giving prophetic words and you haven't been through that, yeah, your prophetic words are going to be about a be about be doing winning you versus the other guy victory because you haven't walked through the process, because God as a prophetic person can't tell you things if you haven't garnered the wisdom and you're just doing a knowledge because you don't have the life
00;26;57;26 - 00;27;20;05
Murray Dueck
experience to do that. And then people are writing books where they don't have the journey. They have a gift, absolutely, But they don't have the wisdom of life experience because you can't hear through what you don't have right? Yeah. And and, you know, and, you know, we could talk about that, too. You want some verses like the throw them at you, right?
00;27;20;05 - 00;27;36;14
Murray Dueck
Ezekiel 14 four. When an elder comes to me and they stand before me and they have an idol in their heart and a wicked stumbling block before their eyes, I'll answer them and keep it right. So, so. So it's a dangerous thing to just go, Well, I'm a prophet and I'm going to write a book.
00;27;36;16 - 00;27;38;23
Murray Dueck
And I'm yeah, you know, one.
00;27;38;23 - 00;27;40;21
Joshua Hoffert
Hundred percent. And one of the one.
00;27;40;21 - 00;27;47;11
Murray Dueck
Of the history of the church here. Yes, right. The history of the prophetic people. How they've walked with God.
00;27;47;13 - 00;27;57;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. And that's that's one of the problems I have with this and this this book is written by what people would consider a senior level prophetic voice like, I mean.
00;27;57;05 - 00;28;01;21
Murray Dueck
And they might they might be really great in everything everybody says, you know, you don't want it is just that.
00;28;01;24 - 00;28;03;03
Murray Dueck
Well, what would it do this?
00;28;03;08 - 00;28;51;03
Joshua Hoffert
It says there's a blind spot that says this is what prophecy is about. And so then it becomes a self-fulfilling assumption because this is what prophecy is about. So that's how my gift will function. So that's what we do. So it it rips it rips the actual function of prophecy. So and this is why I point this out, because what we're saying about prophecy or or the prophets of the coming into the early church age were sought for their defense of Scripture and the nature of God Trinitarian theology, all this kind of stuff is that when our assumption about prophecy is guided by this statement, these kind of thoughts where the purpose of prophecy is
00;28;51;03 - 00;28;56;14
Joshua Hoffert
to reveal the revelation and application of end time scripture.
00;28;56;25 - 00;28;57;07
Murray Dueck
God.
00;28;57;09 - 00;29;19;23
Joshua Hoffert
When that's the purpose of when that's the purpose of prophecy. Right? Well, what happens is we bastardized we bastardized scripture to make it mean what we think we want it to mean. And so then so then there's a there's you can think, just let me just look up. There's a particular verse, just look at this.
00;29;19;23 - 00;29;21;08
Murray Dueck
Okay.
00;29;21;11 - 00;29;23;14
Murray Dueck
All I need in your healing, I want to tell you right.
00;29;23;14 - 00;29;25;03
Murray Dueck
Now, Larry, does see that you're seeing.
00;29;25;09 - 00;29;27;29
Joshua Hoffert
In real time Murray's trauma coming to the.
00;29;28;01 - 00;29;28;11
Murray Dueck
Front.
00;29;28;15 - 00;29;33;02
Murray Dueck
I'm melting down here. Somebody get me a professional counselor.
00;29;33;05 - 00;29;34;23
Murray Dueck
Yes.
00;29;34;25 - 00;30;00;13
Murray Dueck
It's just that I've tried this everybody for 30 years and and you again, quote, you know, re-insert. How did you become king man right there? You know, you can't overcome the enemy with your gifting. You overcome the enemy with your relationship. Right? Intimacy intimidate the enemy. If it was about your gifting, Jesus would not have said, Lord, Lord, we heal the sick.
00;30;00;13 - 00;30;22;18
Murray Dueck
Raise the dead. The part for me, I never knew you were a new Adam New Eve, right? It just the gifting should mirror an intimate relationship, right? And it shouldn't mirror a job description or an event. It should remember a person. And. And you know what? We'll come back into that a little bit, but that's why I'm grinding my teeth a little bit.
00;30;22;18 - 00;30;23;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah, it is. And that's.
00;30;23;20 - 00;30;32;11
Murray Dueck
Promising. You should do this. No prophecy should be about who you know and whose you belong to.
00;30;32;17 - 00;30;56;07
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. So, so here's, here's one of the ways that a a belief framework like this causes us to reinterpret scripture through this lens and then miss the point of Scripture. So this particular book, there's a there's a passage in Acts three, which will read I'll read X three, 19 to 21, just to give you the context. It says this is and this Acts three.
00;30;56;07 - 00;31;22;13
Joshua Hoffert
This is, of course, Peter's preaching. And let's see, he says Peter says it's repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out so that the times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord and that He may send Jesus Christ who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things which God has spoken by the mouth of all His Holy Prophet since the world began.
00;31;22;15 - 00;31;57;08
Joshua Hoffert
So that the So then in this particular lens, because the purpose of prophecy is to point out the application of Scripture to end times, then this verse become it means that that the Old Testament prophets aren't pointing forward to the coming of Jesus in what they said, and that's the restoration of all things. The Old Testament prophets are speaking towards the end times and they all point towards a time after Jesus when the Old Testament prophets are pointing towards Jesus.
00;31;57;08 - 00;32;02;00
Joshua Hoffert
That's clearly what the Old Testament prophets are pointing towards. And that.
00;32;02;15 - 00;32;03;07
Murray Dueck
God, so.
00;32;03;07 - 00;32;03;24
Joshua Hoffert
So it takes.
00;32;03;24 - 00;32;07;26
Murray Dueck
A I just have to breathe my breath as you're talking.
00;32;07;28 - 00;32;28;05
Joshua Hoffert
It takes an interpretation of the prophets in the Old Testament and says they're talking about the end times when they're talking about Jesus, and then it interprets the Old Testament prophets as pointing to the end times rather than revealing the coming of Jesus and pointing towards the magnificence of the incarnation, which is what the Old Testament prophets do.
00;32;28;08 - 00;32;32;13
Joshua Hoffert
So that's what I mean, is that when that's your lens, then you start reading all the passage of.
00;32;32;16 - 00;32;34;12
Murray Dueck
The Bible in a completely different way.
00;32;34;12 - 00;32;52;09
Joshua Hoffert
And you and you actually miss what the what the Old Testament prophets are all about. And then you read verses like this one in Acts 321 and say, he's talking about how the prophets today are pointing towards the restoration of all things. Jesus was the restoration of all things He inaugurated, the restoration of all things He didn't.
00;32;52;16 - 00;33;14;09
Joshua Hoffert
It's not final, but it's being summed up in him and it's going to happen. This is the point of Revelation 21 and 22, but he is the beginning of it. And and so that's what all the prophets point to. So this is what I mean. This is where we've we've we've decided that there are ways that prophecy is supposed to function that have actually thwarted our attempts to understand scripture.
00;33;14;09 - 00;33;30;07
Joshua Hoffert
And this is pervasive in the charismatic prophetic movement. It's one of our one of our very good friends we've had on the podcast, Steve Schroder. He's the Lord, said to him one time in prayer, You know, Steve, I really don't like it when people take my verses out of context.
00;33;30;22 - 00;33;33;10
Murray Dueck
boy. I thought.
00;33;33;13 - 00;34;00;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I could really see the Lord going, Yeah, no. And, and so that's when we talk about the the prophetic manifesto, you know, we're talking about coming back to a much more centered way of seeing prophecy. And one of the ways we do that is that we look at how the church has interpreted these passages throughout history and we go, How does what I'm seeing line up with that?
00;34;00;16 - 00;34;20;27
Joshua Hoffert
Not how do I create a new spurious interpretation that helps me see how to apply this to the end times? That is a recipe for misleading people and misunderstanding the actual passages and frankly, negating the beauty of God and the Old Testament and pointing forward to the coming of Jesus and talking about what He would look like when he came.
00;34;21;00 - 00;34;28;29
Joshua Hoffert
So, you know, I just find it so problematic. So that that that's just point two. We've already been talking for a long time, so.
00;34;29;02 - 00;34;47;19
Murray Dueck
Well, let me just add one little thing here to just kind of a read a review. I mean, C.S. Lewis, everybody would say you need to read the Church Fathers every hundred years back. Like like what stood the test of time? Like what? What has God been saying to the church? Right. What throughout time? What's what's he saying?
00;34;47;19 - 00;35;10;26
Murray Dueck
How how do I mean human beings? We're still the same broken mess out here, Adam. We've always been. So how is God been dealing with that for to that, you know? Wow, I thought your 6000 years, whatever it is. And, you know, so again, that's one reason this is kind of important. And we all have to just realize that we now see in a mere dimly write.
00;35;10;26 - 00;35;28;01
Murray Dueck
In other words, we're not getting it all, but then we'll see face to face. So so let me give you an example of that just quick, because we all you know, most of us think, I got it pretty right. You know, I'm doing I'm doing pretty good. I think I'm reading it all right. So, so so think about this.
00;35;28;03 - 00;35;44;19
Murray Dueck
So I remember I said the father Mike and I've heard this before, but I think it's a good moment for it because it it changed my life. This this statement, I said, you know, why do you have all these guys in monasteries? You know, why these you know, they should be doing something? And he goes, Well, it's not that they're not doing anything.
00;35;44;19 - 00;35;59;14
Murray Dueck
You know, they're praying and they might pray for 20 or 30, maybe more years and you can go and hang out with one of them and they'll become your spiritual mom or dad for the rest of your life. How do you find spiritual moms and dads and your church culture?
00;35;59;16 - 00;36;00;18
Murray Dueck
Yes.
00;36;00;21 - 00;36;12;19
Murray Dueck
And and you're all drawing a blank. Pretty sure you all want it, But it ain't probably happening. It's starting to. It's beginning, I would say. But why? Because we've made church about knowledge and about doing.
00;36;12;21 - 00;36;13;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;36;13;11 - 00;36;42;29
Murray Dueck
Well, the church has been about becoming and growing. And you know what? We're not even aware of it in our church culture because we have a longing, but because we don't see it, we go almost be something wrong with me because, boy, I sure wish I could get someone. Just a mentor. Yeah. You know what? Church has been doing it for 2000 years, but because of our Western civilization, based on knowledge and, you know, doing it with our churches, sometimes we mirror our culture rather than our culture mirroring the church.
00;36;42;29 - 00;36;44;01
Murray Dueck
That's right.
00;36;44;03 - 00;36;56;22
Murray Dueck
So. So I mean, there's just one example of of we have lenses where we're reading scripture through our current set of glasses we're wearing. And and you know what, George is talking about? This book is kind of doing that.
00;36;56;24 - 00;36;57;17
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You know.
00;36;57;17 - 00;37;01;00
Murray Dueck
It's like, here's my culture. I'm going to go back and read Bible through my culture.
00;37;01;04 - 00;37;02;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah, right.
00;37;02;04 - 00;37;04;26
Murray Dueck
And I could anyway.
00;37;05;02 - 00;37;24;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So let me let's let me do this. Let me go through the next five and then one then. Yeah, Murray's covering his mouth now so he won't say anything. He's got much more to say. I love that. I've got him really stirred up I guess. I guess. Murray, I guess you didn't say all the controversial things before we started recording.
00;37;24;04 - 00;37;28;15
Joshua Hoffert
No, they're. They're just sitting there in your heart, I guess.
00;37;28;18 - 00;37;30;02
Murray Dueck
I mean.
00;37;30;05 - 00;37;33;14
Murray Dueck
It's a pet peeve topic of mine. You know, One of them.
00;37;33;14 - 00;37;34;01
Joshua Hoffert
Of me, too.
00;37;34;09 - 00;37;42;23
Murray Dueck
Let me let me. I'll just.
00;37;42;26 - 00;37;49;08
Joshua Hoffert
You just hold on. You got your Murray, your nut. You're like, muted for some reason.
00;37;49;08 - 00;37;53;28
Murray Dueck
I think that was the Lord. I think Jesus hit mute. I didn't do it. So let's just keep going.
00;37;54;03 - 00;37;54;16
Murray Dueck
Okay?
00;37;54;17 - 00;37;59;01
Joshua Hoffert
There we go. Well, you've got Murray just. He said something that none of us heard.
00;37;59;03 - 00;38;04;07
Murray Dueck
And it wasn't bad. I was just. I have one more point. And then Newt came on. I'm like, You know what? Maybe I.
00;38;04;07 - 00;38;34;12
Joshua Hoffert
Don't. Maybe not. Okay, good. Okay, so let me run through the next five and then we'll start. We'll go well, we'll just start with number three and go. So the next five marks that would define prophetic ministry. What are the primary function of revealing the nature of God and the heart of Christ, secondary function of telling the future an intense regard for humility, solitude and silence, hesitancy to use a gift to build a platform, rather a desire to see the gift to use in hidden ways.
00;38;34;14 - 00;38;55;08
Joshua Hoffert
D shackling the function of prophecy from in times eschatology and a healthier understanding of five fold ministry. So those are the other five. So reputation of Aquarius that the prophet prophetic movement would be known for its it's its regard for Scripture and its interpretation of Scripture, primary function of revealing the nature of God in the heart of Christ, and secondarily of telling the future.
00;38;55;08 - 00;39;19;01
Joshua Hoffert
So we'll camp on that one for a second because what I, what I want to it dovetails very well with what we've been talking about because of this. When we're looking at when we're looking at the Old Testament. Right. And we're looking at the prophets of the Old Testament then and here's that. Here's a verse we were just talking about this verse actually earlier today.
00;39;19;01 - 00;39;50;29
Joshua Hoffert
And here's another another example. Okay. So Amos 37, surely the Lord God does nothing unless he reveals his secrets to the servant, his servants, the prophets. Right. Okay. So if my lens for prophecy is end times, you know, this, this like revealing of everything, right? Then what that verse tells me is that as a prophet, God's going to tell me secrets about things that are going to come, right?
00;39;51;02 - 00;39;56;16
Joshua Hoffert
And so now that's my lens. So now I find the interpretation of the verse proves my lens.
00;39;56;18 - 00;39;58;13
Murray Dueck
Right? Okay.
00;39;58;16 - 00;40;12;23
Joshua Hoffert
But here's the thing. Paul said that the mystery of God has been revealed. The mystery of God has been revealed, and the mystery was hidden in the ages. And the mystery is Christ. Jesus says it very clearly in Ephesians three.
00;40;12;25 - 00;40;13;08
Murray Dueck
So.
00;40;13;11 - 00;40;34;15
Joshua Hoffert
Amos three. Sure, Lord God does nothing unless he reveals his secrets to his servants. The prophets is actually a messianic prophecy. This is talking about the nature of Jesus. Okay, so the that what what Amos 37, is saying is that God has a secret and you don't know what it is yet. And his prophets are alluding to it.
00;40;34;15 - 00;40;40;25
Joshua Hoffert
And Jesus says this right, Jesus indicts the Pharisees because he says the the the.
00;40;40;25 - 00;40;43;15
Murray Dueck
Only not number one measure is talking about.
00;40;43;18 - 00;40;44;20
Murray Dueck
You know, we're going.
00;40;44;23 - 00;41;17;17
Joshua Hoffert
It's all pointing to me, guys, and you guys have missed it, right? So Amos, 37, the prophets point to Jesus. So the context of prophecy is not a is not primarily a future oriented gift. It's not like a prophecy is intended to reveal the future. The nature of prophecy, when we properly understand it, is to reveal the nature of God and or to that matter, the heart of Christ, which is what Amos, 37, does.
00;41;17;19 - 00;41;41;24
Joshua Hoffert
So it reveals that there's a secret that's coming, that God's whispering to his servants, the prophets. And if you'd pay attention, which Israel didn't. You'd see that something was coming down the pipeline. So now when I have the proper context for understanding the prophetic books, which is not end times eschatology, but is the revealing of the heart of God, then the the function of prophecy in the Old Testament had a future oriented bent to it.
00;41;41;24 - 00;42;01;06
Joshua Hoffert
Why? Because it was revealing the eventual coming of Jesus and Jesus Christ. But it wasn't because it was supposed to reveal the future, it was because it's revealing the coming of Jesus prophecy happens in the Old Testament when the Word of God and the Word of God comes to me, right? The Word of the Lord comes and speaks to Isaiah.
00;42;01;06 - 00;42;02;04
Joshua Hoffert
To Jeremiah? Yeah.
00;42;02;06 - 00;42;03;24
Murray Dueck
Word of the Lord. Who's that guy?
00;42;03;27 - 00;42;11;19
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly what prophecy is Jesus talking about Himself. That's what the Old Testament prophecy is.
00;42;11;22 - 00;42;17;21
Murray Dueck
And if you want to sum that up in a verse, everybody wears that in the Bible to him and from him who Jesus was all thing.
00;42;17;28 - 00;42;28;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, there. There you go. Exactly. So prophecy, prophecy is in a very secondary way, reveals the future. It only revealed the future in a secondary way.
00;42;28;25 - 00;42;28;29
Murray Dueck
In a.
00;42;28;29 - 00;42;43;18
Joshua Hoffert
Secondary way. It revealed the future in the Old Testament because it pointed to Jesus. That's why it revealed the future. Because the primary thing was revealing the nature of God. The secondary thing was the future. The future happened because the primary thing was functioning.
00;42;43;21 - 00;43;01;09
Murray Dueck
And you know what, guys? Let's just let's just I'll throw in my little bit here, too. Okay. Second most powerful thing Father Mike ever said to me, I got to give kid props where props are due. So I was. And Father Mike, again, I like to pick fights. You know, as you can tell already, I'm just. you get me going.
00;43;01;09 - 00;43;21;21
Murray Dueck
I'm going to do this thing, you know, so. And I said, okay, Father Mike, why do you guys, as Orthodox guys, have Jesus on the cross in your church? That's why, you know, we you know, we can be pretty cocky about this. Our God's not dead. He's he's risen. You know, we'd never put Christ in the cross. And he says to me, so he says, Well, let's think about it this way.
00;43;21;21 - 00;43;31;10
Murray Dueck
Do you believe that Jesus is the exact representation of the Father? So everything's about him, which is what we're talking about. Do you believe his exact representation of the father? I'm just giving you a good.
00;43;31;15 - 00;43;33;23
Murray Dueck
You argue with that because the Bible's clear.
00;43;33;23 - 00;43;49;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And I'm like, Yeah, well, you can't argue with that. So he goes with you. So then when Philip says, you know, show us the father then will believe in Jesus. God. When you see him, you see the Father. Do you believe that? Yes, I do. So then and he says to me, When you're looking at Jesus on the cross, you're looking at perfect theology.
00;43;49;25 - 00;44;15;16
Murray Dueck
I go, Okay, what do you mean, What does God look like? Does he reign in power or does he glow in the dark? Does he have, you know, so coming out of his mouth? Absolutely. What is God? Look like? He also looks like Jesus on the cross. Humble, merciful, kind, forgiving, meek. Jesus is modeling what the father looks like.
00;44;15;23 - 00;44;16;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah, Yeah.
00;44;16;29 - 00;44;34;05
Murray Dueck
And if that isn't showing up in your eschatology, then there's a problem. So with that, you know, everybody read the book of when you read the Book of Revelations, you have to be reading it about Christ, not about events.
00;44;34;07 - 00;44;35;23
Murray Dueck
That's right. So I mean, that's very so.
00;44;35;23 - 00;44;53;03
Murray Dueck
When you when you look at the Book of Revelation, then what is it? What is it about if we're like, if Christ is a center, it's about a marriage, it's about a marriage ceremony, it's about the nature of Christ. There is no one found on the earth above the earth or under Earth that could open the scroll. And I was weeping.
00;44;53;05 - 00;45;09;12
Murray Dueck
And then one of the elders says, Look, you know, the line of the tribe of Judah has overcome. And you're picturing in your mind this line of power. He's going to win and he's going to ruin who and what happens. He looks and there is a lamb looking as if he was slain on the center of the throne.
00;45;09;15 - 00;45;31;23
Murray Dueck
Why? Because it ain't about power. It's about writing your life down. And look at the revelation of the nature of Christ in the Book of Revelation. And then he gets a bride out of mankind. That the book of Revelation, if if you're making it about the revelation, the revelation about Christ prophecy has to be about that.
00;45;31;25 - 00;45;32;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;45;32;12 - 00;45;33;10
Murray Dueck
Or it's not prophecy.
00;45;33;18 - 00;45;34;15
Murray Dueck
That's been our.
00;45;34;15 - 00;46;06;08
Murray Dueck
In time things happening around the Book of Revelation. Absolutely there. But in behind all those events is how Christ is getting himself a bride. Everything is forming this in mankind. They're just they're just side issues. They're just addendums. They're just filling in spaces As time rolls forward and God out of mankind snatches for himself a co-ruler. I mean, you know, it ends with the spirit and the bride say, come see.
00;46;06;10 - 00;46;33;08
Joshua Hoffert
Looking, looking at the the thing that Father Mike said to you, the the the reason people are uncomfortable with, I think. Anyway, my my thought, the reason why evangelicals are uncomfortable with the picture of Jesus on the cross is because the picture of Jesus on the cross has been used to bludgeon evangelicals over their sinfulness.
00;46;33;11 - 00;46;37;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah, exactly. And that's not what it's about. But it's not the cross.
00;46;37;07 - 00;46;46;19
Joshua Hoffert
The cross. Jesus on the cross is the revelation of mankind's sinfulness. That's what that's the that's the evangelical right. Because all the wrath is poured out of Jesus on the cross, Right?
00;46;46;27 - 00;46;48;06
Murray Dueck
boy. There's a massive topic.
00;46;48;06 - 00;46;50;01
Joshua Hoffert
It's a huge topic. It's a huge topic.
00;46;50;01 - 00;46;51;06
Murray Dueck
So super important.
00;46;51;06 - 00;47;16;10
Joshua Hoffert
It is really important because it gives us context for why prophecy reveals the heart of God. And it's another one of those theological underpinnings that we've gotten totally off base that that and this is now we're getting even bigger because the the problem is the way that evangelicals typically interpret the scriptures is they place at the center revelation of the scriptures mankind's sinfulness and need for God.
00;47;16;13 - 00;47;45;10
Joshua Hoffert
That's the central revelation of the Scriptures in evangelical Christianity. And that's what when you talk about the cross, when you talk about the death, burial, the resurrection of Jesus, it's all about mankind, right? And yeah, the Bible in actuality, from the get go, the very first and the very first in the beginning, God created the very first verse is about God, and the very last verse is about God.
00;47;45;16 - 00;47;54;04
Joshua Hoffert
When the Spirit and the bride say, Come, the very last thing is about God. So and all the middle bits are about God. By the way.
00;47;54;07 - 00;47;55;19
Murray Dueck
Every prophecy.
00;47;55;19 - 00;48;25;26
Joshua Hoffert
Prophecy in the Old Testament is the revealing of the of the coming of God in the Incarnation. Everything points to this central event. The Incarnation. The Incarnation is the revealing of what God is like. So. So here's the thing. What when, when we read in the Scripture the revelation of man's sinfulness, we the actual point of Scripture, the actual point of Scripture is the revelation of God's nature, which is goodness, kindness, tenderness, love and mercy.
00;48;25;28 - 00;48;41;14
Joshua Hoffert
And when we and here's the thing, though, when we see that our sinfulness becomes apparent, not because we've seen our sinfulness, but we've seen ourselves in light of a good, wise, kind, tender father. So when we get there.
00;48;41;16 - 00;48;42;13
Murray Dueck
We get the cross.
00;48;42;13 - 00;49;04;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right or the cross Jesus On the cross is the revelation of the tenderness of God. Then I can look at it and I can see my sinfulness in light of his tenderness, not because I'm trying to figure out how sinful I am. And then when the central revelation is a sinfulness, a man like you don't need revelation to tell man how sinful he is.
00;49;04;05 - 00;49;26;01
Joshua Hoffert
Just read a history book. That's all you need. So the thing is, when the revelation of Scripture is my sinfulness, it if that's the if that's the point, which in evangelical church circles that tends to be the point. If that's the point, then all of my practices are about managing that sin.
00;49;26;04 - 00;49;26;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;49;26;14 - 00;49;45;04
Joshua Hoffert
And so everything I do is trying to not sin. So I pray in order to not sin, I attend church in order to not sin, I tithe in order to not sin that I might offend God. Right. Verses every once I've caught a glimpse of his beauty on the cross, in his tenderness. Everything I do is to reorient my life around him.
00;49;45;06 - 00;50;15;27
Joshua Hoffert
And so now he is the accompaniment on the journey. Because I've joined him on the journey. And once I find him on the journey, now I preserve that relationship rather than trying not to practice my evil ways. And so when the central revelation is even even 1% off base, the practice is become incredibly thwarted. And and this is and this is even going back to the purpose of prophecy, not to reveal the future, but to reveal the nature of God.
00;50;16;03 - 00;50;37;02
Joshua Hoffert
Prophetic ministry today ought to be pointing people back to what God is like and hear the sick. So if I have a personal, prophetic word for Mary right email, it may include something about the future, Murray's future, right. Like it may be, you know, Mary, you can be doing this or even doing this, whatever, right. Whatever it is.
00;50;37;08 - 00;50;55;09
Joshua Hoffert
If I have a personal prophetic word about Mary, it could include his future. Why? Is it because prophecy reveals a future? No, it's because prophecy reveals the heart of God. And the heart of God has a particular thought about Mary, and that might include some of the things Murray's going to do. And so prophecy reveals God's heart for Mary.
00;50;55;09 - 00;51;19;29
Joshua Hoffert
And by revealing God's heart for Mary, a secondary function of that might be some of the things that Mary is going to do in his life. And so the secondary function becomes the revelation of the future. The primary function is the revelation of his heart. And we see this very clearly in first Corinthians 14 when it says the unbeliever or the uninformed person comes into the midst of the gathering and at the word of prophecy, the secrets of their heart are laid bare and they declare that God is among you.
00;51;20;00 - 00;51;39;26
Joshua Hoffert
Well, the secrets that look like the secrets of the heart are something no man can know. Only God can know. So God, the revealer of secrets reveals what's in the heart of man. Because he alone knows that. Because he's the one who knows the secrets. So just by revealing the secrets in the heart of men, the nature of God is revealed.
00;51;39;28 - 00;51;56;18
Joshua Hoffert
And so prophecy might be a future oriented because of that, but not primarily as a function of prophecy. You know, not primarily. It's not a function of prophecy to reveal the future, primarily as a function of prophecy, to reveal the heart of God.
00;51;56;21 - 00;52;23;06
Murray Dueck
And and if you look in Scripture for that, I mean, you know, Beatitudes blessed are the pure and heart for they shall see, think Revelation eyes open. See what? See God. There it is. How about Ephesians one? I pray that God would give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation. Why? That you may know the glorious father and I pray the eyes of your heart would open, that you would know the hope of your calling.
00;52;23;09 - 00;52;40;06
Murray Dueck
You're going to get married to the king someday. His glorious inheritance of the saints. What he gets out of you, a bride and is incomparably great powerful who believe right or your ticket to Revelations you will want to go Revelations 1901 The Spirit of Prophecy.
00;52;40;08 - 00;52;41;13
Murray Dueck
In 1910.
00;52;41;13 - 00;52;58;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah, 1910. Thank you. So think about the word testimony in this context. What's the testimony? If you ask me for my testimony, you know, go back to episode one. Super good. If you want to get the framework or glasses, there it is that you have this encounter with God, it wrecks you. You know, this is where this comes from.
00;52;58;29 - 00;53;15;29
Murray Dueck
It's right there. But testimony, it's how God has been good to me and kind to me and healed me and showed me his nature and provided for me that that's a testimony. Right? So if prophecy is the testimony of Jesus, it has to do that. It has to reveal the nature of God. That's what a testimony is.
00;53;16;01 - 00;53;17;01
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;53;17;04 - 00;53;31;14
Murray Dueck
Right. So, so to think that his testimony is just telling you the end times, that'll be a part of it. But his testimony is telling you the nature of God revealed to mankind and super duper. I'm I don't even know.
00;53;31;14 - 00;53;38;08
Joshua Hoffert
You know what? I don't even know if it will be a part of it. Like, look at this. Like revealing the end times thing. Look at this. Okay.
00;53;38;10 - 00;53;39;23
Murray Dueck
I was just.
00;53;39;27 - 00;53;41;20
Murray Dueck
Waiting to know.
00;53;41;23 - 00;53;55;03
Joshua Hoffert
Just reading this today. Well, where was it? It's in Revelation. It's in my revelations, in my Bible reading. Just. Anyway, look, give me just a second while I pull this back.
00;53;55;04 - 00;54;11;05
Murray Dueck
Well, yeah. No, I said, why would you want to know? I guess some people are like, Why wouldn't you want to know? Well, you know, if you get to know God, right? I mean, guess what? You're going to see God in your lifetime. Every one of you face to face. You know what it might be for me? Maybe it'll BMI, very last breath when he comes to get me.
00;54;11;09 - 00;54;20;17
Murray Dueck
But I'm going to see him, Right? He's coming. And I don't need to wait for the rapture. I have a certain amount of time on this earth. I'm going to see him.
00;54;20;19 - 00;54;21;25
Murray Dueck
Right? I'm.
00;54;21;28 - 00;54;41;12
Murray Dueck
Why do I care about the Rapture? I will see God and be taken to heaven. And so will you. And I love the court of Saint Francis, and I don't know that much about of his life. And I wish I did, because, you know, he loves animals and and I'm an animal sanctuary. And but but the last somebody says to him, if Jesus came back today, what would you do?
00;54;41;15 - 00;54;53;18
Murray Dueck
And he goes, I'd finish hoeing this row of peas. And that's an important quote, because you know what? When you're living with God every day and you have a relationship, why would you do anything different than you're doing?
00;54;53;21 - 00;54;54;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;54;54;18 - 00;54;55;06
Murray Dueck
Because you're with.
00;54;55;06 - 00;54;56;10
Murray Dueck
Him. Yeah, exactly.
00;54;56;10 - 00;55;11;11
Murray Dueck
If we want some future event and see, that's the problem. If you if you don't know, God speaks and you're hanging out with him, you have what are you waiting for? A future event where I can have revelation. I can see him. I can be with him, I can feel him because I can't do it now. So I better wait for it then.
00;55;11;13 - 00;55;20;18
Murray Dueck
Well, you know what? Why don't you learn to hear him now, feel his presence now and be with him then? You don't have to. Yeah, because it's about intimacy. And he right.
00;55;20;18 - 00;55;45;05
Joshua Hoffert
There. We'll look at this, right? Like, okay, Revelation ten. This just struck me today, by the way, Revelation ten, I still I saw still this is the seventh. The seventh, the seventh angel that has come me right. So revelation not. Yeah, the seventh. The seventh angel. I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. Cloak with a cloud And a rainbow was on his head.
00;55;45;05 - 00;55;59;26
Joshua Hoffert
His face was like the sun in the street. Like the pillars of fire. You had a little book open in his hand. I love that the book is little. And he said his right foot on the sea, in his left foot on the land and cried with a loud voice is when a lion roars. When he cried out seven Thunders uttered their voices.
00;55;59;28 - 00;56;15;10
Joshua Hoffert
Now I'm going to just I'm going to skip verse four and come back to it in a second, right? The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised up his hand to heaven and swore by him, who lives forever and ever, who created heaven in the things that are in the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it.
00;56;15;12 - 00;56;33;29
Joshua Hoffert
That there should be no be delay, no longer. But in the days of the sounding of the seventh Angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God will be finished as declared to his servants, the Prophet prophets. Okay, so if this is about let's just even give that this is about end times. Okay? Now let's just give it to someone, okay?
00;56;34;01 - 00;56;53;15
Joshua Hoffert
All right. Let's talk about end times, because the the mystery of God to be finished, declared by his servants, the prophets. This is in the in that wheelhouse. That's about end times. Right. And so this is so the angel. And he speaks and what he talks about is going to be about when the mystery of God is going to be finished.
00;56;53;17 - 00;57;18;23
Joshua Hoffert
And this is what the seventh Angel sounds right? Okay. Verse four when the seven Thunders uttered their voices. Right? Because this is what when the angel spoke, when he cried out, verse three when he cried out, thunders utter seven, thunders out of their voices when the seven Thunders uttered their voices. So this is the voice of the angel talking about the mysteries and the air and and that there'd be more no delay till the end.
00;57;18;26 - 00;57;23;10
Joshua Hoffert
Mysteries of God to be finished. Blah, blah, blah. Are you following me there?
00;57;23;12 - 00;57;24;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah.
00;57;24;16 - 00;57;40;05
Joshua Hoffert
So the angel cries out. His voice sounds like seven thunders, and it says this in verse four. Now, when the Seven Thunders uttered their voice, I was about to write, but I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, SEAL up the things which the Seven Thunders utters and do not write them.
00;57;40;08 - 00;57;40;28
Murray Dueck
00;57;41;00 - 00;58;03;18
Joshua Hoffert
So does he care that you know what's going to happen in the end? He told John. John heard the Voice seven Thunder and it was going to write what they said and the voice said, Don't write it. And those seven Thunders have to do with the mystery of God and the final consummation of his plan, and he won't even write about it.
00;58;03;21 - 00;58;28;01
Joshua Hoffert
Okay, so the point is, prophecy is not concerned with revealing the future. It's concerned with revealing the heart of God to invite you to walk with him. That's the primary function of prophecy. It's true in the Old Testament, everything pointed through. I can see why people would make the mistake of assuming prophecy was about revealing the future and end times things because of the way prophecy functions in the Old Testament.
00;58;28;04 - 00;58;51;24
Joshua Hoffert
It only functions that way because it's revealing the heart of God, which is the mystery of Jesus, which is fulfilled in the Incarnation. Now prophecy exists to point back to the coming of Jesus, the revelation of the heart of God. This is what He is like and the invitation to know Him. Occasionally it reveals a future because God does have a thought about your future, but not it's not intended to reveal it.
00;58;51;24 - 00;58;54;07
Murray Dueck
So you can become his bride and become like him.
00;58;54;07 - 00;58;55;02
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly.
00;58;55;05 - 00;59;03;02
Murray Dueck
We were unveiled faces. We behold his glory, so we may know in time event. No. So we may be changed from glory to glory in Christ Jesus.
00;59;03;04 - 00;59;08;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right. That's right. Let's let's cover the next one just for a few minutes and then maybe we'll on our.
00;59;08;28 - 00;59;13;05
Murray Dueck
Well, we got to go back to this one. No, we're not. I mean, next week I got where to say, okay, go ahead.
00;59;13;05 - 00;59;14;28
Joshua Hoffert
Well, let's just let's just keep going for a few more minutes.
00;59;16;00 - 00;59;17;05
Murray Dueck
you got it.
00;59;17;07 - 00;59;19;14
Murray Dueck
Well, you know.
00;59;19;17 - 00;59;22;12
Joshua Hoffert
We don't have to move on, but it's our podcast. We can do whatever you want.
00;59;22;12 - 00;59;34;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I mean, I got another 25 minutes on this one. I think that get. Okay, so one, you know, I just going to quote Rick Joyner. I love that guy. Yeah. And not the right.
00;59;34;01 - 00;59;37;00
Joshua Hoffert
For the record book was not written by Rick Joyner.
00;59;37;03 - 00;59;57;08
Murray Dueck
No, no, no. This is something completely different. It's just this I heard this story and he was after and it's on Sid Roth. He was interviewed by Sid Roth on the Supernatural, and I guess he was asked to write a book. And as he's off to write this book and I guess he's written 40 books, the Lord says to him, You know, Rick, I couldn't get anyone to write a book.
00;59;57;10 - 01;00;27;12
Murray Dueck
I just want you to be my friend. And he says, That's it. I don't know how to be God's friend. You know, you can watch it. I've been a good servant all these years. I have. You don't know how to be his friend. Like, wouldn't admission, you know. And you know, what have we trained people to do? And and I just love that I haven't watched the whole episode, but I sure want to because from somebody who has walked that prophetic journey for the Lord to bring it back to that, what we're talking about is, is is crazy.
01;00;27;12 - 01;00;42;17
Murray Dueck
And, you know, and I'll just see this one more one more thing. But and I'll do it quick. But it might not do it justice. We might need to come back to it. And so again, it's about how we read scripture and what lens we're using, right? Are we using this Old Testament lens making it about events? Are we making it about him?
01;00;42;19 - 01;01;03;10
Murray Dueck
Well, what does Jesus have to say about that? Right. So so everybody think about think about Luke ten. So Luke, Jesus sends out the 70. So remember, Moses had his 70, right? And Jesus is supposed to do the works of Moses. You know, we could get into that. But when, when they see Jesus multiply bread, you know, he's feeding everybody.
01;01;03;12 - 01;01;20;04
Murray Dueck
I think that's John. John six And they go, Surely this is a prophet coming into the world because Moses said, A prophet like me will come, right? They want to make him king by force and Jesus disappears. Okay, So he sends out the 70 and he says, you know, heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out the demons.
01;01;20;09 - 01;01;42;23
Murray Dueck
And I'm paraphrasing four time. I'm not sure if he could raise the dead in that, but definitely casted image of the sick. And they come back and they make the statement, Lord, even the demons submit to us. They're very excited about their anointing and power. What does Jesus do? He rebukes them and he says, Guys, don't rejoice. Said that that demon submit to you the power you have.
01;01;43;00 - 01;02;00;17
Murray Dueck
Rejoice. Your names are written in the book. I mean, what a stupid thing to say. Why would you care that your name is written in some dusty old book? It doesn't make any sense. Right? Right. And then turns to the father right in front of them. So think about the father standing right there. And he says to the father right in front of them.
01;02;00;20 - 01;02;27;05
Murray Dueck
Father, thank you. Didn't reveal these to the wise and learned and think he's glancing over at the disciples, but to the little children. And then he says to the disciples, Right, They're children. No one knows the father unless the sun revealed that he's making an introduction between father and children. Okay, gone. Now this is important. Those words Jesus uses are only in Scripture name written No in one other place, one other place in the whole Bible.
01;02;27;07 - 01;02;47;20
Murray Dueck
And that's in numbers 28, 32 and 33. So they've been worshiping the golden calf. Moses throws down the Ten Commandments and he goes, God strikes me out of the book you've written, and God says, Hey, get moving. You know, that's not up to you. So. So and then it gets there. They're in the tent, a meeting, and God says, I'm not going with them.
01;02;47;26 - 01;03;04;14
Murray Dueck
And Moses goes, Well, you need to go with that. You know, I'll go with you. God says, And Moses it was, No, no, no, no, you have to go with us. And then God acquiesces to Moses and you got, you know, Moses twist this rubber arm because, you know, he's praying what God wants in the tree. And this is because I know you by name.
01;03;04;14 - 01;03;31;01
Murray Dueck
I will do what you've asked. So there are those three words, written book, no name. There they are. And Jesus is quoting memory sent out the 70. Moses has gone 70. You know, he's referring back to this. And here's the point. Psalm 139 All my days are written in his book before one of them came to bear. So there was a day I was journaling in my in my my diary, in my dream, you know, And Jesus said to me, you know what?
01;03;31;01 - 01;03;43;18
Murray Dueck
I've got a book too. And someday we're going to compare your book and my book and they're going to match it. That's the book we're talking about. It's not a book of judgment. It's a book of intimate relationship. You know.
01;03;43;20 - 01;03;45;00
Murray Dueck
That's so good, right? Yeah.
01;03;45;01 - 01;04;09;13
Murray Dueck
So what is God saying? Rejoice so and think Moses, because I know you by name, I will do what you ask. So the word there is Adam New Eve, right? We're talking intimate knowledge. So let's see. Let's see into the room right now. There's Josh and I and into the room walks Francis chan. I like Francis chan.
01;04;09;15 - 01;04;10;13
Murray Dueck
I like Francis.
01;04;10;20 - 01;04;21;22
Murray Dueck
And I like them too. And he says, Mary, how you doing? So good to see you. Josh. We go, How in the world is Francis Channel? Murray You would have to assume because he knows my name. We have an intimate relationship.
01;04;21;23 - 01;04;22;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
01;04;22;22 - 01;04;39;19
Murray Dueck
Right. So what Jesus is saying, you guys, you rejoice not in what you do. The power you have, you rejoice that your name is written. You're known in heaven by your name throughout eternity and everything about your life has been recorded because you are so loved.
01;04;39;22 - 01;04;42;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Joy and that. Yeah.
01;04;42;03 - 01;05;02;28
Murray Dueck
Guys point your gifting in another direction. And and when you're hearing things talk about the end times talk about doing the Lord rebukes people for not making it about the intimate relations present the spirit of his son doing into our heart who cries out study the end times. No he cries out. Have a father.
01;05;03;01 - 01;05;05;24
Murray Dueck
Right? Right. Yeah.
01;05;05;28 - 01;05;09;27
Murray Dueck
We need to read Scripture and understand what's happening here. Right.
01;05;09;29 - 01;05;11;14
Murray Dueck
Let me in the gifting.
01;05;11;16 - 01;05;12;18
Murray Dueck
Let me get things happening.
01;05;12;22 - 01;05;14;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah, for sure.
01;05;14;11 - 01;05;21;06
Joshua Hoffert
Let me use an analogy to underscore underscore your point. There's just. Just. I love that point. Such a beautiful point.
01;05;21;08 - 01;05;22;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
01;05;22;21 - 01;05;29;17
Joshua Hoffert
If if our our our oldest son, he's eight and he loves playing Fortnite.
01;05;30;01 - 01;05;31;19
Murray Dueck
God, that's his thing, right?
01;05;31;25 - 01;05;35;27
Murray Dueck
My son's 30 and he loves playing Fortnite.
01;05;36;00 - 01;06;01;27
Joshua Hoffert
So and you know, it becomes a bit all consuming for kids and so you got to navigate that and everything, right? So I could walk our house when I get home this evening and I could ask my wife, What do you think about Fortnite? And I can have a conversation with her about how frustrated she gets by Fortnite and how our son gets so caught up in it.
01;06;01;27 - 01;06;03;22
Joshua Hoffert
He's presently grounded from playing.
01;06;03;22 - 01;06;06;07
Murray Dueck
It, have it.
01;06;06;10 - 01;06;14;15
Joshua Hoffert
That's one thing about traveling with kids in our modern age is when you're on the plane for 13 hours, they play a lot of video games.
01;06;14;27 - 01;06;16;10
Murray Dueck
for sure. Yeah.
01;06;16;13 - 01;06;34;18
Joshua Hoffert
So? So he's grounded from playing right now so I can go home and I can ask her about what she thinks about Fortnite and have a conversation with her. Right. And probably a lengthy conversation with her. Right. She can tell me about how our son's been frustrated. She can tell me about what he said. She can tell me about how frustrated she is over how dumb this game is.
01;06;34;18 - 01;06;43;15
Joshua Hoffert
She doesn't care about it. She wishes we could just throw the switch in the garbage and tender switch in the garbage and blow up the whole Internet. I know I can predict the conversation we.
01;06;43;15 - 01;06;43;23
Murray Dueck
Were.
01;06;43;28 - 01;07;10;10
Joshua Hoffert
Right. We would have a conversation because I'd ask her a question right about Fortnite. And I could. I could and she would. She'd leave frustrated and I'd leave not very edified, but with information. Right. Or I could come home and ask her how her day was. I could come home and ask her how she's feeling. I could come home and ask her, Did you read anything interesting today?
01;07;10;12 - 01;07;26;08
Joshua Hoffert
I could come home and ask. I know one of the things, Erin my wife loves to talk about is the makeup of the human heart and how to bring healing to that. Right. Could I ask about that? And I just get her talking and talking and talking about something she's really passionate about. Right. So here's here's my point with what Mary is saying.
01;07;26;08 - 01;07;47;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right? My question can dictate the flow of the conversation, how I approach the relationship will determine what I get out of the relationship. If I ask her about something that frustrates her, she'll talk about it right, Because she loves me and we have a relationship. But may not be the things she really wants to talk about. Listen. Something prophetic people don't understand.
01;07;47;08 - 01;08;05;16
Joshua Hoffert
See, they think, God, just spoke to me about that. Well, know, you've been offering a question. You've been bringing a question to the table over and over and over again. And oftentimes it's about what's going to happen. I'm anxious. I'm afraid. I have people that are afraid. They're asking me, I've got a ministry to run. I've got money and bills to pay.
01;08;05;22 - 01;08;23;25
Joshua Hoffert
I need to earn money. I need to hear something from God. So people are edified. What do people want to hear? They want to hear about this stuff. So oftentimes we bring all kinds of questions to the table and that determines the conversation we get out of it. And so what Mary is saying here is you're Jesus is saying ask a different question.
01;08;23;27 - 01;08;49;00
Joshua Hoffert
Come to the table and recognize the father's right there and he wants to talk to you about something far different than power and authority and all the great things you've done. He wants to talk to you about how he knows you by name, and he's written that name down and he cherishes how he's written that down. So when we talk about the primary function of prophecy, prophetic people need to understand the reason why prophecy looks like revealing the future is because prophetic people are asking about the future.
01;08;49;02 - 01;09;08;12
Joshua Hoffert
But it's not the thing the father wants to talk about. That word of the Lord shows up prophesies about the coming of Jesus. Jesus is the Word of the Lord. God likes talking about Himself. That that is what we see. That narrative is what we see. He likes talking about himself.
01;09;08;14 - 01;09;28;11
Murray Dueck
And that's so brilliant. And you know what? I'm going to finish with the John Jackson story, of course, so much we need to come back to this next week because I but just because, you know, John Paul was a good influence on both of us and we do from a distance. So he shares his story. And you have to correct me a little bit because he might know it better than me.
01;09;28;13 - 01;09;44;00
Murray Dueck
I just remembered so well. And and he says, you know, there was a time I didn't smile for two years. And my wife said to me, John, why don't you smile? Because how can I smile? There's going to be an earthquake in the Middle East. There's going to be a famine in Africa. I don't remember the exact location.
01;09;44;00 - 01;10;03;10
Murray Dueck
Sure, sure. And it's going to be a typhoon. And and it goes, How can I smile these all these horrible things, events, future they're going to happen. And he goes, and how the Lord fix that? He goes, I had this dream about my dad and he goes and in real life you need to know my dad. He's a real puncher and he likes to tell jokes.
01;10;03;12 - 01;10;23;00
Murray Dueck
And and if he tells a funny one, I just pretend to look as dower as I can. Because if I. If, if, if I laugh, he's going to just tell more. Right? So in the dream, I'm sitting with my brother and my dad and my dad is telling these horrible jokes and and I'm trying to look as dour as possible to get him to stop.
01;10;23;02 - 01;10;40;02
Murray Dueck
And then he tells one, That's funny, and then he tells one about me. And it's so funny. I snort and then I fall to the ground because I snort it and I'm laughing hysterically and tears in my eyes, rolling on the ground laughing. And my father in the dream leans over with his hands on his knees with a big smile on his face.
01;10;40;02 - 01;10;46;09
Murray Dueck
And he says, John Paul, I don't need you as much as you think I do.
01;10;46;24 - 01;10;47;27
Murray Dueck
that's so good.
01;10;47;29 - 01;10;58;10
Murray Dueck
So why is God telling him all this stuff to get him to do things? Or is he just sharing it because he wants a friend? He can talk to you.
01;10;58;16 - 01;11;02;01
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah. Very different. That's.
01;11;02;01 - 01;11;26;03
Joshua Hoffert
That's a very different context for practicing the gift of prophecy. And this is and this is, you know, this is going back into looking at MacQuarrie, you know, what strikes me about some of the, the stories of prophetic people in the early church thinking of I'm thinking specifically of John the Prophet Barson obvious in John in the sixth century.
01;11;26;07 - 01;11;29;19
Joshua Hoffert
John the prophet was known for prophetic revelation, right?
01;11;29;22 - 01;11;30;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah.
01;11;30;07 - 01;11;58;23
Joshua Hoffert
And and he'd have these these prophecies that were, you know, they were, they, they bore the test of they, they came true. Right. So and they were future oriented. And it what strikes me about them every time I read them there's a few of them that you can read that he spoke all of them are about a person, none of them are about some kind of vague national identity all around a person.
01;11;58;23 - 01;12;20;17
Joshua Hoffert
This person God is going to make the King or magistrate over this area. Right. And they're all super simple. Wow. They're so they're like one sentence. Right. And and he was credited that he's he's one of the only he's one of the only fathers I've seen that's called like, you know, Anthony the great. Gregory The biologist, you know.
01;12;20;17 - 01;12;38;25
Joshua Hoffert
Gregory Wonder Worker is another one, right? All of these you know, the what the appendix to their name. Right, was appended to their name John of the Cross. Blah, blah, blah. Right. And he's the only one I've seen that's called John the Prophet.
01;12;38;27 - 01;12;39;12
Murray Dueck
Wow.
01;12;39;15 - 01;12;41;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah. I can't think of any other.
01;12;41;22 - 01;13;03;29
Joshua Hoffert
Simple, simple revelation. And oftentimes a revelation is simply instruction on how to offer the heart to God. And It's but it's prophetic because he knows what's happening in the context of the person he's writing to. So and there's always a little couple sentences that say, John wrote this because he discerned by revelation that this was happening in the community.
01;13;03;29 - 01;13;32;17
Joshua Hoffert
And so he writes, you know, here's three instructions for keeping your heart before God given your community is going through. Right? So so John, the prophet, the the the future oriented prophecies he had were always simple and about an individual. And most of what he wrote in terms of revelatory ministry was simple instruction on how to navigate difficult circumstances that he'd discerned by the spirit were happening in the community and and he became known as a prophet because of that.
01;13;32;19 - 01;13;57;19
Joshua Hoffert
So he his context is friendship with God. Yeah. Tenderness and affection. The people that he leads and is responsible for, and occasionally a future oriented thing. But the vast bulk of his quote unquote prophetic ministry is simple instruction that is the result of him discerning what's happening, the difficult things that are happening in a particular area. And you can read about it in the letters of John and Carson.
01;13;57;19 - 01;14;19;12
Joshua Hoffert
If yes, they're it's they're all translated into English. You can find the whole collection there. And it's just a beautiful thing when you see his affection for the father drove his affection for his people and his affection for the people, it came out in in what he, quote unquote, prophesied by giving them instruction on how to walk things out.
01;14;19;14 - 01;14;35;14
Joshua Hoffert
And that's just a totally different dynamic than we're used to today. Yeah. And in terms of movie, in terms of the the public kind of brash voice of prophetic ministry, there's definitely people that walk like what we're describing today.
01;14;35;17 - 01;14;53;17
Murray Dueck
You know, maybe I'll just share one quick little story just to put in kind of a modern context, because it just happened yesterday. I, you know, go to this little prophetic event and people come that that, you know, we don't know and we get to pray for them, which is which is great so, you know, this gal comes you know, I've met her once before, pretty rough.
01;14;53;19 - 01;15;16;07
Murray Dueck
And and she just sits in the chair, her turn. And her name is Sarah, you know, tattoos everywhere and just, you know, been through some stuff, great parents, but been through some stuff. And she sits in the chair and I go put my hand on her and that that old, you know, song, you know, is it a song or some little ditty, so Ross or Ra or whatever will be will be.
01;15;16;07 - 01;15;32;22
Murray Dueck
I told I'm not going to sing it for you because I can't stand bitch. But as you just all learn And I'm like, You know, Sarah, as you're sitting here, this little ditty of a wordplay comes to my mind and she gasp and goes, Do you mean, Cyrus era? I go, Yes, I do. And, you know, we kind of sing it together a little.
01;15;33;01 - 01;15;52;09
Murray Dueck
so my parents have been singing that over my life since I was a baby. And God keeps bringing it back to my mind. And then this prophetic word, Well, here's how God knows you. Here's how he loves you. Here's what he's going to do for you. Here's how he's going to hear you heal your soul. Here's what's going to happen as you walk with him as a father is your future stuff there?
01;15;52;11 - 01;16;00;10
Murray Dueck
There is. But why is it there? Because it's about God shaping. Her into his image. That's right. As you walk with her as a friend.
01;16;00;13 - 01;16;01;12
Murray Dueck
That's right.
01;16;01;15 - 01;16;03;22
Murray Dueck
Read the Book of Revelation from that point of view.
01;16;03;22 - 01;16;04;16
Murray Dueck
That's right.
01;16;04;18 - 01;16;15;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And that's what we're talking is this is revelation happening? Yes. But why? It's about the formation of the human being into the image of Christ.
01;16;15;10 - 01;16;15;21
Murray Dueck
That's right.
01;16;15;22 - 01;16;21;05
Murray Dueck
Ending the formation of humanity as a partner for Christ. Eternity.
01;16;21;07 - 01;16;22;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
01;16;22;25 - 01;16;25;00
Murray Dueck
Like it's it's huge thought. Yeah.
01;16;25;01 - 01;16;25;27
Murray Dueck
So huge thoughts.
01;16;25;29 - 01;16;28;15
Murray Dueck
Anyway, I just thought you were talking. I'm like, wow, that just happened.
01;16;28;17 - 01;16;51;26
Joshua Hoffert
Such a good such a good example. Such a good example. And, you know, life, life, prophetic ministry. The thing is, prophetic ministry is full of examples like that. They're just they're just hidden and they should be right. What happens is we get the the loudest voice determines what people think about prophecy and the smallest voice, you know, the hidden voice.
01;16;51;28 - 01;16;59;07
Joshua Hoffert
That's where and that's, you know, part of the the next point is an intense regard for humility, solitude and silence.
01;16;59;09 - 01;17;01;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that'll be yeah, a.
01;17;01;24 - 01;17;13;05
Joshua Hoffert
Whole nother topic that, you know, we've been thinking and we said, we've got we'll probably have like two or three, two, maybe two more episodes on this prophecy stuff. We might have a lot more to go here because there's just.
01;17;13;12 - 01;17;25;19
Murray Dueck
One, you know, everybody, how did we this out? Just so you know, because when we were younger men at an earlier stage of development, we went through hell and screwed up.
01;17;25;22 - 01;17;27;04
Murray Dueck
We went through hell and screwed up.
01;17;27;11 - 01;17;33;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And the Lord fill this out. And again, you don't know what you don't know.
01;17;33;05 - 01;17;33;17
Murray Dueck
Yes.
01;17;33;19 - 01;17;49;18
Murray Dueck
And so to I mean, you know, when you know, we're thinking about people in prophecy today, you know, God loves everybody at every stage. It's not about right or wrong, really. It's about, you know, God loves a baby as much as he loves a toddler as much as he loves a teenager, as much as he loves an adult.
01;17;49;21 - 01;17;52;21
Murray Dueck
And we need to think that everybody is changing and growing.
01;17;52;26 - 01;17;53;07
Murray Dueck
That's right.
01;17;53;09 - 01;18;04;28
Murray Dueck
And but but we but with that, we also need to understand somebody are writing books and making declarations as a five year old that maybe they wouldn't as a 25 year old in the things of the spirit.
01;18;05;00 - 01;18;06;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You know Yeah.
01;18;06;11 - 01;18;14;12
Murray Dueck
And and we need to have that that wisdom as we're listening to voices and go and how do we where does wisdom come from.
01;18;14;13 - 01;18;14;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
01;18;14;26 - 01;18;17;05
Murray Dueck
To him and through him and from him are all things.
01;18;17;06 - 01;18;17;28
Murray Dueck
That's right.
01;18;18;01 - 01;18;19;25
Murray Dueck
Does it look like Jesus.
01;18;19;27 - 01;18;21;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And.
01;18;21;17 - 01;18;29;08
Murray Dueck
And you know, and again would put you all back to the first two episodes of How did you end up here, Right.
01;18;29;11 - 01;18;39;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right, That's right. There's, there's a I want to say does it look like Jesus and does it point me back to him.
01;18;39;23 - 01;18;41;15
Murray Dueck
And does it reveal the nature of.
01;18;41;19 - 01;18;43;17
Murray Dueck
Yeah, right, right. That's right. Well.
01;18;43;19 - 01;18;46;00
Murray Dueck
And back to that testimony word and.
01;18;46;02 - 01;18;48;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's so good. Okay.
01;18;48;00 - 01;18;51;17
Murray Dueck
I hope everybody again that book ponders awesome.
01;18;51;19 - 01;18;53;25
Murray Dueck
Take a look at everybody before.
01;18;53;28 - 01;19;05;18
Murray Dueck
Listening. You know Joshua's writing on the desert fathers and mothers. You know, this is why we want to ground ourselves in the history of of these wise people who live their life pursuing what did they for.
01;19;05;21 - 01;19;06;15
Murray Dueck
That's right.
01;19;06;17 - 01;19;08;09
Murray Dueck
And they learn stuff like this.
01;19;08;16 - 01;19;08;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
01;19;08;24 - 01;19;14;03
Murray Dueck
And and yeah, it's just it's just so important.
01;19;14;06 - 01;19;18;05
Joshua Hoffert
It is. It is. Well, we got lots more to say and yeah.
01;19;18;12 - 01;19;18;25
Murray Dueck
I sure.
01;19;18;25 - 01;19;21;18
Joshua Hoffert
Do. Not any more time because you have.
01;19;21;21 - 01;19;23;12
Murray Dueck
I got to go.
01;19;23;15 - 01;19;25;19
Joshua Hoffert
You've got to winterize the farm. That's right.
01;19;25;23 - 01;19;26;17
Murray Dueck
Yes.
01;19;26;20 - 01;19;40;04
Joshua Hoffert
So as always everybody has been such a blessing to be with you, to hear your stories and your journey and send us an email message, Instagram message, all that, any of those things, let us know. Give us a review on whatever.
01;19;40;04 - 01;19;41;17
Murray Dueck
Podcast platform.
01;19;41;20 - 01;19;45;06
Joshua Hoffert
You follow us on and tell your friends about these episodes.
01;19;45;06 - 01;19;47;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah.
01;19;47;04 - 01;19;59;03
Joshua Hoffert
We're we're just happy to be able to have the time together to talk about the things we're passionate about. We're happy that your listeners are enjoying listening, so it's awesome. So until next time.
01;19;59;08 - 01;20;00;20
Murray Dueck
We will be back.
01;20;00;28 - 01;20;01;12
Joshua Hoffert
Same.
01;20;01;15 - 01;20;48;18
Murray Dueck
Time, same place with another house will come together. I'll buy everybody Miles.