In this episode of Voices from the Desert we delve into the timeless teachings of the early church age on prophetic ministry and explore their profound relevance in our modern world. Join us as we embark on a thought-provoking journey through the seven key points of The Prophetic Manifesto.
Today, we shine a spotlight on the pivotal role of solitude and silence in prophetic ministry. How do the ancient practices of solitude and silence enrich and deepen our understanding today? Let's navigate the intersection of ancient wisdom and our contemporary world.
The 7 Points of the Prophetic Manfiesto:
- The reputation of Macarius the Great.
- The Desert Fathers (aka the prophets in the church) were sought for their great understanding of Scripture.
- The primary function of prophetic ministry is to reveal the nature of God/heart of Christ. A secondary/tertiary function is telling the future.
- An intense regards for humility, solitude, and silence (see the aforementioned Macarius)
- A hesitancy to use a gift to build a platform. Prophets/those in prophetic ministry ought to desire to be hidden rather than seen and to see the gift used in hidden ways.
- De-shackling the function of prophecy from end-times eschatology
- A healthier understanding of 5-fold ministry (admitting that we don't know what we are talking about). How has it been applied in ages past?
For more about Joshua Hoffert visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
For more about Murray Dueck visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
Eden's Way Farm Sanctuary: https://edenswayfarmsanctuary.ca/
To dive into the Desert Fathers, visit: http://thedesertfathers.ca/
In this episode of Voices from the Desert we delve into the timeless teachings of the early church age on prophetic ministry and explore their profound relevance in our modern world. Join us as we embark on a thought-provoking journey through the seven key points of The Prophetic Manifesto.
Today, we shine a spotlight on the pivotal role of solitude and silence in prophetic ministry. How do the ancient practices of solitude and silence enrich and deepen our understanding today? Let's navigate the intersection of ancient wisdom and our contemporary world.
The 7 Points of the Prophetic Manfiesto:
- The reputation of Macarius the Great.
- The Desert Fathers (aka the prophets in the church) were sought for their great understanding of Scripture.
- The primary function of prophetic ministry is to reveal the nature of God/heart of Christ. A secondary/tertiary function is telling the future.
- An intense regards for humility, solitude, and silence (see the aforementioned Macarius)
- A hesitancy to use a gift to build a platform. Prophets/those in prophetic ministry ought to desire to be hidden rather than seen and to see the gift used in hidden ways.
- De-shackling the function of prophecy from end-times eschatology
- A healthier understanding of 5-fold ministry (admitting that we don't know what we are talking about). How has it been applied in ages past?
For more about Joshua Hoffert visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
For more about Murray Dueck visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
Eden's Way Farm Sanctuary: https://edenswayfarmsanctuary.ca/
To dive into the Desert Fathers, visit: http://thedesertfathers.ca/
00;00;21;28 - 00;00;31;23
Joshua Hoffert
That it's very easy to get distracted when it comes to not even just prophetic ministry, but pastoral ministry when it comes to.
00;00;32;06 - 00;00;32;11
Murray Dueck
for.
00;00;32;11 - 00;01;03;13
Joshua Hoffert
Sure, you know, teaching ministry, healing ministry. Let's go after this next great thing, because we need people to continue to watch, to listen and think about us. Just like now. We need to check that at the door.
00;01;03;16 - 00;01;13;20
Murray Dueck
Welcome, everybody, to Voices from the desert. Desert, desert, desert, desert. I wonder what that is.
00;01;13;22 - 00;01;16;16
Joshua Hoffert
What noises a roadrunner make.
00;01;16;18 - 00;01;19;08
Murray Dueck
I a little bit a little liberal about that.
00;01;19;09 - 00;01;22;05
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe we can start doing that, too. Yeah.
00;01;22;08 - 00;01;23;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah, you're right.
00;01;23;15 - 00;01;27;00
Murray Dueck
If we could make that the sound that the roadrunner makes when he takes off.
00;01;27;03 - 00;01;29;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, And let's meet Meep. Isn't that what it is?
00;01;29;05 - 00;01;32;27
Murray Dueck
Meet me up there in that particular moment. Okay, so all.
00;01;32;27 - 00;01;35;10
Joshua Hoffert
Over again, Murray, do the voices from the desert.
00;01;35;12 - 00;01;44;00
Murray Dueck
Okay, well, okay, Wait a minute. Wait. You can't do it.
00;01;44;02 - 00;01;45;11
Joshua Hoffert
But he's laughing too hard to.
00;01;45;12 - 00;01;56;11
Murray Dueck
Try to do it in gate. Welcome, everyone, to Voices from the Desert. A little.
00;01;56;13 - 00;01;58;14
Joshua Hoffert
There we go. Yeah, Yeah. All right, we got it. All right.
00;01;58;15 - 00;02;04;00
Murray Dueck
I don't know if that works it out, but, you know, we were talking about humility today, so. Yeah, yeah, that's right. There you.
00;02;04;00 - 00;02;13;29
Joshua Hoffert
Go. There's there's if if, if you can if you if the only thing you can do with humility is just to humiliate yourself, you might as well start there.
00;02;14;02 - 00;02;15;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You've got to start somewhere.
00;02;15;07 - 00;02;16;21
Murray Dueck
Take the low, sit at the table. Right.
00;02;16;21 - 00;02;46;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm got in regards to humility, right, Like Philippians two says that lettuce esteem others is better than themselves. Right. And so I've, I have oftentimes thought of that verse in my younger years as let each esteem themselves is worse than others and that that's functioning humility, right? When humility is actually thinking of others and preferring others over and again, over and above yourself, not preferring yourself less than others.
00;02;46;18 - 00;02;55;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right. You're still focused on yourself there. But with that said, okay, if the place you have to start is thinking of yourself, less than at least start there.
00;02;55;29 - 00;02;58;04
Murray Dueck
So yeah, at least that's.
00;02;58;04 - 00;02;59;02
Murray Dueck
What it takes to get off.
00;02;59;02 - 00;03;00;06
Murray Dueck
The throne. Yeah.
00;03;00;07 - 00;03;25;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Well, and that's what the desert fathers talk about, right? Is, is self accusation is actually a discipline in the contemplative literature. And, and I think the reason people misunderstand it is because they think you're supposed to stay at self accusation. Just tell yourself that you're horrible often evil all the time. But the problem is most of us need that shot in the arm because we need to break the rough exterior of the heart before we can actually realize pure humility.
00;03;25;22 - 00;03;27;03
Joshua Hoffert
So anyway.
00;03;27;06 - 00;03;28;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah, you know.
00;03;28;12 - 00;03;31;28
Joshua Hoffert
That's not really the topic at hand today, but I guess it kind of is.
00;03;32;00 - 00;03;49;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah, it kind of fits in, you know. You know, again, like I'll say it again because it fits in. But I you know, I really do think I'm a pretty good driver. I don't know why that is, but, you know, had some fast cars in my life. And and it was interesting, one year in the winter, maybe it was last winter, probably.
00;03;49;22 - 00;03;58;06
Murray Dueck
There's this piece of road. It's a little bit uphill to a stop sign. Uphill to a stop sign. There's no way you can slide. Of course, hit the brakes. I slid.
00;03;58;09 - 00;04;00;14
Murray Dueck
Through the stop sign and there's a.
00;04;00;14 - 00;04;06;03
Murray Dueck
Guy driving by. He's got a Christmas tree in his car and he points at his head and then he pointed me out.
00;04;06;03 - 00;04;10;01
Murray Dueck
His window as he drives by. You use your head? Yeah. Yeah.
00;04;10;03 - 00;04;13;21
Murray Dueck
I was a lot nicer to every driver on the road after that.
00;04;13;24 - 00;04;15;11
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Right.
00;04;15;13 - 00;04;16;18
Murray Dueck
So but it took.
00;04;16;18 - 00;04;21;05
Murray Dueck
A good hard look at like, you know what? Maybe I'm not quite as good as I think I am.
00;04;21;05 - 00;04;21;23
Murray Dueck
Yes.
00;04;21;23 - 00;04;29;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. There's a in. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's in the book The Mountain of Silence, which is a good.
00;04;29;08 - 00;04;30;28
Murray Dueck
That's a good primer for authors on.
00;04;30;28 - 00;04;36;01
Joshua Hoffert
Primer for some some thoughts regarding orthodox spiritual formation.
00;04;36;03 - 00;04;37;17
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Good primer, everybody.
00;04;37;20 - 00;04;46;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yes, Father Maximus is the the monk in general who's he didn't write it, but yeah.
00;04;46;13 - 00;04;47;25
Murray Dueck
He's. He's a styling.
00;04;47;27 - 00;04;49;23
Joshua Hoffert
Mike. Mark. Kids or something like that.
00;04;50;00 - 00;04;51;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah, something like that. Very good.
00;04;51;25 - 00;04;55;22
Joshua Hoffert
A Greek guy who was interviewing the guy during assignment.
00;04;55;25 - 00;04;56;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;04;56;19 - 00;05;30;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yes. So in the in the book, The Mountain of Silence, the the Father Maximus is kind of leading the philosopher, the scientist. It's coming to him through the understanding of what the early what the fathers have taught through the fight locally about the, about the heart and spiritual growth. And essentially what Father Maximus says is the harder the surface, the the harder the strike needs to be of the hammer to break it apart.
00;05;30;27 - 00;05;42;28
Joshua Hoffert
And I don't know of a true statement that has been said. So the harder the surface, the harder the strike against it to break it apart. And and so it is with our hearts, right?
00;05;42;28 - 00;05;44;23
Murray Dueck
Is that yeah.
00;05;44;23 - 00;05;47;27
Murray Dueck
We're going to do a whole bunch of stuff on the heart at some point everybody. So it's coming.
00;05;47;29 - 00;05;49;21
Joshua Hoffert
It is coming. Coming. That's right.
00;05;49;21 - 00;05;51;02
Murray Dueck
That's right. That would be a good.
00;05;51;02 - 00;06;05;06
Murray Dueck
Book to read that would really prime you of of some thoughts like if you're interested in kind of you know how the modern church, especially the Orthodox Church, is applying this the patristic mark embodies is the guys I think it turns.
00;06;05;07 - 00;06;07;01
Joshua Hoffert
Out that's right. Yeah I'm Archimedes of.
00;06;07;06 - 00;06;16;17
Murray Dueck
Mountain of Silence. You know, it's kind of a a sketch drawing in red of of, I think, Mount Athos. So, yeah, I'd recommend it to everybody.
00;06;16;20 - 00;06;17;12
Murray Dueck
Maximus.
00;06;17;14 - 00;06;22;13
Joshua Hoffert
Maximus. What was it? Mount Athos. Mount Athos. What? Mount Maximus was from Mount Athos. But his.
00;06;22;14 - 00;06;23;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah.
00;06;23;08 - 00;06;30;28
Joshua Hoffert
And I always wanted to go back but so he would have a, an Athena night approach to it. Yeah. So anyway, I.
00;06;31;04 - 00;06;31;24
Murray Dueck
Your offer.
00;06;31;24 - 00;06;37;06
Murray Dueck
Wanted to go to Mount Athos, but never got there though. But he ended up meeting Father Maximus in Cyprus or.
00;06;37;06 - 00;06;38;21
Murray Dueck
Something like that. Yeah, something like that.
00;06;38;21 - 00;06;41;01
Murray Dueck
And it's a brilliant it's, it's really worth your time.
00;06;41;06 - 00;06;42;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah, it is.
00;06;42;15 - 00;06;46;08
Murray Dueck
It is a lot of good questions to ask everybody.
00;06;46;09 - 00;06;50;04
Murray Dueck
Questions please. That's right. That's right. Really appreciate your.
00;06;50;04 - 00;06;56;22
Murray Dueck
Questions. We'll get to them all. We're going to get through. Josh, this is very cathartic for Josh. Everybody, this manifesto.
00;06;56;25 - 00;06;57;19
Murray Dueck
He's got to get it.
00;06;57;19 - 00;07;01;06
Murray Dueck
Out for him to just like, just be able to sleep at night.
00;07;01;06 - 00;07;07;12
Joshua Hoffert
So there's episodes well, there's certain episodes that have been cathartic for me and certain episodes that have been cathartic for you.
00;07;07;15 - 00;07;10;19
Murray Dueck
For sure. Yes. So we got to get through this.
00;07;10;19 - 00;07;12;11
Murray Dueck
Just for Josh's sanity.
00;07;12;13 - 00;07;13;01
Murray Dueck
So. Right.
00;07;13;01 - 00;07;13;15
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
00;07;13;20 - 00;07;14;04
Murray Dueck
Yes.
00;07;14;10 - 00;07;35;21
Murray Dueck
But it's very important because I, I, I have some friends asking me again about I mean, lots of crazy stuff going on in the prophetic world community right now. And, you know, we don't need to talk into that because I think we did last week. But a lot of people are asking like, you know what? What do you guys what do you think about this?
00;07;35;24 - 00;07;43;01
Murray Dueck
And I go, you know what? Just listen to Josh's manifesto. That's it. Just that because it's going to be like 10 hours.
00;07;43;03 - 00;07;47;18
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;07;47;20 - 00;08;00;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right. Well, I mean, we had we had obviously the the kind of the present thing that hit the charismatic church was the Mike Pickle thing, which again, we're not we're not commenting on because we don't know anything about it really. But it's just that.
00;08;00;20 - 00;08;04;00
Murray Dueck
Mike has has a good he's done a lot of good for the.
00;08;04;00 - 00;08;06;01
Murray Dueck
Church. Yeah. So let's just.
00;08;06;02 - 00;08;10;27
Murray Dueck
Say, you know, and they brought in a, a third party law firm.
00;08;10;29 - 00;08;11;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;08;11;09 - 00;08;13;10
Murray Dueck
To, to walk this outside.
00;08;13;15 - 00;08;14;23
Murray Dueck
They're doing it really, really well.
00;08;14;26 - 00;08;21;26
Murray Dueck
I mean we're so far away. I mean, our opinion is, is opinions are like belly buttons.
00;08;21;28 - 00;08;23;28
Murray Dueck
Everybody's got one. Yeah. Yes.
00;08;23;28 - 00;08;27;10
Murray Dueck
Although the original version of that is a little bit Clint Eastwood in Dirty Harry.
00;08;27;10 - 00;08;31;09
Murray Dueck
I think it's a little different. But but our opinion is, you know.
00;08;31;12 - 00;08;37;12
Joshua Hoffert
Everybody everybody needs are like belly buttons. Everybody's is full of lint. And. Harry.
00;08;37;14 - 00;08;41;19
Murray Dueck
That's right. Except for when the Adam and Eve Did Adam and Eve have a belly button.
00;08;41;24 - 00;08;43;03
Joshua Hoffert
I think that has.
00;08;43;03 - 00;08;45;01
Murray Dueck
That is it's.
00;08;45;03 - 00;08;46;12
Joshua Hoffert
I think we're way off base at.
00;08;46;12 - 00;08;46;25
Murray Dueck
This. Well, I.
00;08;46;29 - 00;08;49;15
Murray Dueck
Asked Jesus about this. I want a dream by next week.
00;08;49;16 - 00;09;11;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I will. I'm going to ask that he give you a dream. Come on. Someone can write in and tell us their opinion. The well, we don't. And you know, looking at basically looking at as we've looked at how the early church practiced prophecy. Right. And then looking at how we might incorporate that in a contemporary setting. Right.
00;09;11;07 - 00;09;44;09
Joshua Hoffert
That that's where we see things like what's happening, you know, the what what happens in IHOP there. And regardless of what the outcome is, we just see so much division in the church, so much hurt, all this kind of stuff. And so that's where we're again, we're not with our podcast commentary on social issues. We're just looking and going, Wow, this is why we want to revisit what prophetic ministry should actually look like and what it should look like, incorporating incorporated into a contemporary Christian context.
00;09;44;12 - 00;09;45;23
Murray Dueck
Which which is why.
00;09;45;23 - 00;09;48;25
Murray Dueck
This point is so, so important.
00;09;48;25 - 00;09;52;26
Murray Dueck
And because.
00;09;52;28 - 00;09;56;11
Joshua Hoffert
Well, there's just as you're thinking that there's.
00;09;56;11 - 00;09;56;27
Murray Dueck
Also I.
00;09;56;27 - 00;10;00;00
Murray Dueck
Opened my mouth and I'm like, if I say what I'm going to say, we're going to be talking for half.
00;10;00;00 - 00;10;01;10
Murray Dueck
An hour or so. That's, you.
00;10;01;10 - 00;10;04;18
Joshua Hoffert
Know, that's good. I like talking with,
00;10;04;21 - 00;10;07;01
Murray Dueck
The Murray would be talking at you.
00;10;07;07 - 00;10;09;14
Joshua Hoffert
Went, That's fine with me too.
00;10;09;16 - 00;10;13;00
Murray Dueck
I like listening to recordings.
00;10;13;02 - 00;10;44;16
Joshua Hoffert
There's there's with you know there's that situation there there's, there's a few kind of in the prophetic camp that's connected with the Elijah list and all of them right You've got Kat Kerr and Robin Bullock and Hank Huberman and and these kind of names. Right. Which is which is I'm not saying anything about those three, but a number of the people that have all been involved there are starting to argue with each other about who's right and who's wrong.
00;10;44;25 - 00;10;45;05
Murray Dueck
boy.
00;10;45;06 - 00;10;56;26
Joshua Hoffert
And so you've got Mario Murillo came out and called them all out and Lance Wall now came out, call them all out, and they really responded, yeah, They've been sending videos back and forth and.
00;10;56;26 - 00;10;57;29
Murray Dueck
Online like,
00;10;58;01 - 00;11;18;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, you on YouTube. You can Mario Murillo put out a video within the last 6 to 8 months or so, and Lance will now put a response video out and all this so all that I'm just are you just look at the dynamic within prophetic ministry and you're just like this people are all fighting with each other. Yeah these people are all arguing back and forth.
00;11;18;22 - 00;11;29;14
Joshua Hoffert
They're all and I'm not saying that there's not a place for good, solid criticism of practice. I'm saying the fact that that argument is happening tells us we have lots of problems.
00;11;29;17 - 00;11;31;16
Murray Dueck
Especially publicly. Publicly.
00;11;31;17 - 00;11;51;09
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly. So, I mean, that's all I'm saying is where you look at what's happening in the context of the the charismatic, you know, the explicit, the expression of the spiritual gifts in contemporary Christianity, you know, in our charismatic and evangelical circles. And you're just going it's just broken. It's just totally broken.
00;11;51;12 - 00;12;12;28
Murray Dueck
And so funny fitting in today. I had a friend they they came out of a really well known charismatic church, and they're probably in their seventies now. So they made this transition for me, if you want to put it that way. And the church blew up. I mean, very well known church. John Windsor used to come and everybody used to come.
00;12;12;28 - 00;12;33;20
Murray Dueck
Sure. You know, and it was probably a church of 1200 people. And I'm told like 4 to 500 people don't go to church anywhere anymore of this church, which is really sad. And she was like, God, what happened? And she's walking down a country road and on the country road there, there is a series of power lines, you know, going through this big country field.
00;12;33;22 - 00;12;53;03
Murray Dueck
And the Lord says breaks into her Thorson's and say, what do you see in that field over there? And she goes, Well, I see the power lines. And Lord goes, You know what? I see the field. And she goes, What do you mean? You're looking for the power? I'm looking for the green pasture. You want to move power to where you want to move it?
00;12;53;06 - 00;12;57;22
Murray Dueck
I'm looking for someone who's living in seasons with me and watching what's happening in the field.
00;12;57;25 - 00;13;00;24
Murray Dueck
And she's like, yeah.
00;13;01;00 - 00;13;17;22
Murray Dueck
And part of the problem with the charismatic church, we're trying to figure to get the power and get the power where it needs to go, where the Lord's saying, you know what? He dwells in the secret place or rest under the shadow. A thousand may follow your one side ten at the other and won't come near you. Rest is the weapon there.
00;13;17;23 - 00;13;18;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah, right.
00;13;19;01 - 00;13;26;17
Murray Dueck
And you know, living in season, walking with God, which I had a Sorry, go ahead.
00;13;26;18 - 00;13;32;18
Joshua Hoffert
Well, I was just going to say that actually leads us to the topic at hand, really in in terms of the manifesto.
00;13;32;18 - 00;13;34;11
Murray Dueck
So yeah, I did that on purpose.
00;13;35;12 - 00;13;37;15
Joshua Hoffert
look at that. I'm tracking with Mary there.
00;13;37;18 - 00;13;40;04
Murray Dueck
So. So I'm going to do a Segway.
00;13;40;07 - 00;13;42;28
Joshua Hoffert
Let me just say this. I'm going to turn it back over to Marie because I want you to.
00;13;43;04 - 00;13;45;16
Murray Dueck
no. Okay. You'll like this next.
00;13;45;19 - 00;13;51;08
Joshua Hoffert
And I know and I know you've got some more. He's got this great quote from Isaac, the Syrian.
00;13;51;08 - 00;13;52;11
Murray Dueck
Quoting.
00;13;52;14 - 00;14;23;04
Joshua Hoffert
Basil, the great Basil accessory. So you've got now we're like quoting the quote of the quote, That's pretty awesome. So if for those of you there and following along, this is our third part, or we're talking about the prophetic manifesto that we put together just an essential meaning of the word manifesto, we find it's it it I found it comical, but it's actually not comical because that there's there's actually actual manifestos that are going around.
00;14;23;04 - 00;14;24;09
Joshua Hoffert
But anyway.
00;14;24;11 - 00;14;26;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah, so.
00;14;26;04 - 00;14;54;22
Joshua Hoffert
So it's not a threat to anything. We're just, we're just putting forward principles that we think would help to balance prophetic ministry words out. And so we've covered points. It's seven points. The manifesto, it's seven points. We looked at the reputation of MacQuarrie as as a model for what prophetic ministry should be known for. We looked at how the desert fathers and in the in as continuation of the prophets and the prophetic move in the church were known for their robust interpretation of scripture.
00;14;54;25 - 00;15;13;26
Joshua Hoffert
And so that's something that prophetic ministry is not known for today, that that was captured in the early church, that the primary function of prophetic ministry is to reveal the heart of God in the nature of Christ. Secondarily, a tertiary function is revealing the future, but a primary function is revealing God, and we see that in the Old Testament.
00;15;14;00 - 00;15;38;03
Joshua Hoffert
It only revealed the future because it revealed God and God was coming in the future. So we would and we've been looking at an intense regard for humility, solitude and silence. And we camped on that last week. We're in a camp on that a little bit this week. And then the other three we're going to cover is there's a hesitancy to use the gift to build a platform, rather a desire to see the gift used in hidden ways and shackling the function of prophecy for men.
00;15;38;03 - 00;15;55;13
Joshua Hoffert
Time's eschatology will cover that and a healthier understanding of five fold ministry. So those are our other points that we're going to cover. But today we're we're diving back in to really the outworking of the intense regard for humility, solitude and silence. So, Murray, go ahead and continue your thought.
00;15;55;16 - 00;15;59;22
Murray Dueck
I totally forgot what I was going to say, but it'll come back to me.
00;15;59;26 - 00;16;09;06
Joshua Hoffert
It was it was going to be the most profound mind blowing. It so profound it blew your mind and went.
00;16;09;09 - 00;16;10;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that.
00;16;10;03 - 00;16;12;25
Murray Dueck
Right went in here. One went out the other.
00;16;12;25 - 00;16;13;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00;16;13;29 - 00;16;44;20
Murray Dueck
Still in silence. Like there's so many misconceptions around this. As a charismatic and and, and that's changing. I do believe that we're starting to see I mean, believe it or not, I had this dream and before I even knew what the word contemplative meant. And so. So in the dream, I mean, I'm in a, in a kind of a stadium with the people of this former church that I was a part of that was the charismatic church.
00;16;44;20 - 00;17;02;12
Murray Dueck
And, you know, John Weber used to come in all these people and it blew up. And in the dream they're doing all of these sports. They activations like the Olympics, right? But they're all bad. Some guys in a car, they're all waving at me. They drive into a brick wall and the next group of them, you know, they're dropped in an elevator.
00;17;02;12 - 00;17;20;21
Murray Dueck
I'm like, You know what? This does not seem to be healthy. And and this guy walks up to me and says, The pope would like to meet with you. I'm like, what? I mean, I have no regard for the pope at this time at all. And there's a reason for that, because I was a mennonite. And anyway, that's a whole nother story, however.
00;17;20;28 - 00;17;41;18
Murray Dueck
So I finally meet with this guy. I have to I get he passes me this piece of paper that's all Latin and arithmetic, and I've got to figure it out where this guy is. So I finally find him and he's in this apartment, third floor. And have you ever seen a in a movie when an elevator opens halfway and you've got to crawl out, you've got to get on your hands and knees to get in there?
00;17;41;21 - 00;17;41;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;17;41;27 - 00;17;43;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Okay.
00;17;43;07 - 00;18;13;00
Murray Dueck
His whole apartment wall was completely open, but it was like that You'd have to get on your hands and knees to crawl in, and I turn around. He's standing behind me, kneeling. He's actually originally kneeling on some sawdust in the corner and he and his miter, the pope hat is bright pink like a tulip. And he walks over to me and takes my hands in his hand and says, Big smile your job is to bring the contemplative and the prophetic together, right?
00;18;13;02 - 00;18;16;15
Murray Dueck
And I'm like, Yeah, what's contemplative?
00;18;16;17 - 00;18;17;15
Murray Dueck
I didn't know what it meant.
00;18;17;15 - 00;18;35;29
Murray Dueck
I did like and I didn't realize, you know, learning how to picture and rest is being contemplative. I mean, I just didn't know the language and but I see that all over the place now. I'm not the only one who's, you know, I'm not necessarily you got to take the meat, spit out the bones, so to speak. I'd have bene in pray for me in a heartbeat.
00;18;36;01 - 00;18;54;12
Murray Dueck
Doesn't mean I buy a power suit and have bodyguards and, you know, drive around and stretch a limo to you, take the meat instead of the bone. So. But. But, you know, there is something going on, I think, in the charismatic church, which I think is honestly one reason I do this podcast is because of that dream. That's what we're doing.
00;18;54;15 - 00;19;24;16
Murray Dueck
You know. But but with that, we come back to these points. What about stillness then? And this has been a big contemplative function in the church for a very, very long time. Well, while in our church culture, it's something that, you know, be still and know that I'm God. We know the verses there. But but I was taught in my Mennonite church back in the day and I and I think it would follow me into my charismatic church never steal your mind because the devil will get in trouble, you know, make sure you're speaking in tongues.
00;19;24;16 - 00;19;46;26
Murray Dueck
Make sure you're you're doing all this and that. So but but let me read you Saint Basil here. This is St Isaac, the Syrian quoting Saint Basil on stillness. Why is this important? Why does David say, I think it's Psalm 4610 be still and know that I am God, right? He's not talking about being still for stillness sake.
00;19;46;28 - 00;19;53;15
Murray Dueck
You could maybe rewrite this verse as saying, Be still, and then you will know God is God.
00;19;53;17 - 00;19;54;17
Murray Dueck
Yes, right?
00;19;54;19 - 00;20;14;23
Murray Dueck
Could probably rewrite it like that. It might be more helpful. So I'm going to and I'll. I'll stop every once in a while just for you to throw. And this is only about three paragraphs, but it's a pretty loaded three paragraph based on stillness. Stillness, as Saint Basil says, is the beginning of the soul's purification. So stillness equals purification, right?
00;20;14;23 - 00;20;36;29
Murray Dueck
A little mathematical for me right there. And now he's going to break down that thought for when the outward members cease from their outward activity and from the distraction caused, they're by then the mind turns away from distractions and wandering thoughts that are outside its realm and abides quietly within itself. And the heart awakens for this searching out of deliberations that are within the soul.
00;20;37;02 - 00;20;48;24
Murray Dueck
So in other words, hey, there's somebody else in there. If we shut up long enough to listen, we're going to figure that out right? You know, there's the Marie Amplified version.
00;20;48;26 - 00;20;49;28
Murray Dueck
Of authority.
00;20;50;00 - 00;21;13;09
Murray Dueck
Is nothing else than, say, forgetting an unfree mode of life and departing from its habits. How and when will a man purify his soul who actively of himself or through others, renews in himself the memory of his former habits? It's a heart is defiled every day. What it will be cleansed from. Defile it. But if you cannot even withstand action upon him of outward things, how much less will be able to purify his heart?
00;21;13;15 - 00;21;21;11
Murray Dueck
Seeing that you stand in the midst of the camp and every day here is urgent tidings of war. So think put in brackets Doomscrolling. I mean.
00;21;21;12 - 00;21;21;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.
00;21;22;00 - 00;21;44;02
Murray Dueck
How much time can we stay off the internet and just be alone? It's so you know, it's the old story of again, I might have said it last week of the of the other sorry, counselor with the minister. And he says to the minister, go away for a three day retreat, just be quiet. And you know, he comes back and sees the counselor in account.
00;21;44;09 - 00;21;59;15
Murray Dueck
So how did you go? I read books. I wrote sermons. I listened to tapes because I didn't ask you to read sermons and listen, you know, read books and and listen to me. Teach me teaching. It goes, Well, what would I do? I drive yourself crazy. Isn't that what you do to your congregants? Yeah.
00;21;59;15 - 00;22;00;27
Murray Dueck
Okay. Yes. So.
00;22;01;03 - 00;22;34;29
Joshua Hoffert
So here. But just. Just a reflection on that. Yeah. And Antiochus, who we've talked about, right, All the Antiochus. I don't know if you've if we actually know. I don't know that we have talked about Antiochus. He's. He's a desert. Father is a desert father. He said the good Spirit, meaning the Holy Spirit, which greatly gladdens the soul and illuminates the intellect and and again, we're talking about doing a whole series when it when the the desert fathers in the early fathers talk about intellect, they're not talking about your rational thought process.
00;22;35;02 - 00;22;35;11
Murray Dueck
Right.
00;22;35;16 - 00;22;43;28
Joshua Hoffert
They're talking about the capacity of the human of the human to receive and be imprinted by the divine image. That's essentially what they mean.
00;22;44;01 - 00;22;44;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;22;44;28 - 00;23;04;16
Joshua Hoffert
So the news. The news, Yeah. The soul greatly gladdens the soul and illuminates the intellect cannot act or manifest itself where there are noise and agitation for through them. Fantasies about earthly and worldly objects take possession of the soul. So same same kind of idea, right?
00;23;04;21 - 00;23;05;10
Murray Dueck
Absolutely.
00;23;05;15 - 00;23;31;01
Joshua Hoffert
That when there is wars and rumors of wars, it's very difficult for us to yearn after God to to recognize his presence with us and to be with him. And so that's why the beginning. The beginning and it's really the beginning, the middle and the end, it begins in stillness is sustained by stillness and it ends in stillness.
00;23;31;03 - 00;23;44;12
Joshua Hoffert
And and so it's in the sense of, well, there's more that Marie's going to read with that, but I want to share just what I was saying earlier about the second, second Samuel seven thing with David.
00;23;44;27 - 00;23;48;13
Murray Dueck
for sure. That's great. Yeah, it's going to come back to and it'll.
00;23;48;13 - 00;24;11;24
Joshua Hoffert
Come back to that as well. So in in second Samuel seven it says, which is, which is the place where David expresses his desire to build a house for God. And Samuel will come to Nathan comes back to I'm sorry, Nathan comes back to him and says, you know, this great prophecy about the house that God is going to build for David.
00;24;11;26 - 00;24;33;16
Joshua Hoffert
But what it starts off with and second, Samuel seven, verse one, it says, Now it came to pass when the king was dwelling in his house and the Lord had given him rest from all his enemies all around. Now, when we're talking about Scripture and the interpretation of Scripture, there's on one level, there's the just the practical historical interpretation of what happened with David.
00;24;33;22 - 00;24;53;04
Joshua Hoffert
David had established his kingdom and he was given rest from his enemies around. But the the patristic theology always looks for the deeper hidden meaning in the text. And so when we read a passage like that, we go the king's dwelling in his house and the Lord has given him rest from all his enemies all around. What might that be teaching us about the nature of the spiritual life?
00;24;53;06 - 00;25;16;06
Joshua Hoffert
Well, when we're dwelling in our house, when we're dwelling in our heart, when we're in that place of stillness, then that's when the Lord gives us rest from our enemies all around. So when we're dwelling in our stillness and we don't have rest, we're not dwelling in stillness. So the enemy, the Lord and the Lord is the one who gives David rest, not David, doesn't it?
00;25;16;06 - 00;25;41;14
Joshua Hoffert
Don't say David actually does the fighting, but it doesn't say David gave himself or as I said, the Lord gave him rest. So there is an actual actionable element when it comes to stillness, but it's the Lord who actually works through us. So. So David is dwelling in his house, dwelling in his art, completely aware of himself, totally and totally in the place of receiving the affection of the father.
00;25;41;14 - 00;26;04;27
Joshua Hoffert
We could say that. And the Lord has given him rest all around, right? This is the place of stillness. There's no longer agitation, there's no longer worldly cares and what happens? Well, what bubbles to the surface is this thought. I dwell in the house of cedar. This is what the king says to Nathan, the Prophet. I dwell in the house of Cedar, but the Ark of God dwells inside ten curtains.
00;26;04;29 - 00;26;42;00
Joshua Hoffert
So what? What bubbles up from his heart when he dwells inside and God gives him rest is this thought of How can I bring pleasure to God? And so the natural disposition of the human craving, desiring, loving and longing, the presence of the father rises to the surface in this place. And this is really what Isaiah is quoting Basil getting to and what Antiochus is saying when there's so much war and turmoil around, how do you expect to even have the natural desire of your heart rise to the surface?
00;26;42;02 - 00;26;45;29
Joshua Hoffert
Okay, so go ahead, marry.
00;26;46;02 - 00;26;50;00
Murray Dueck
It, back to it. And here we go.
00;26;50;02 - 00;26;51;29
Joshua Hoffert
You know, actually, one last thing.
00;26;52;05 - 00;26;52;16
Murray Dueck
yeah, please.
00;26;52;22 - 00;26;55;16
Murray Dueck
I got to I don't know, my glasses. I got to squint really hard.
00;26;55;16 - 00;27;25;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it it is. You know, it could be said like there's a there. There are things that I desire on a carnal level, Right. And you know that you could. Or humanity in general. Money, fame, power, sex, greed, lust, all these things. Right? There are.
00;27;25;24 - 00;27;28;00
Murray Dueck
There are.
00;27;28;03 - 00;27;29;07
Joshua Hoffert
I can walk down a.
00;27;29;07 - 00;27;30;12
Murray Dueck
Mall.
00;27;30;14 - 00;27;58;18
Joshua Hoffert
And there's Victoria's Secret. Victoria's Secret right there. Right. Scantily clad women on a on a massive picture that are about ten times the size of me. And I can give myself over to the craving of looking at that or I can mitigate that. Right? There's a there is a craving that naturally comes all you see a good a good, attractive piece of food in front of you.
00;27;58;18 - 00;28;00;25
Joshua Hoffert
There's a natural craving that comes over you.
00;28;00;27 - 00;28;01;16
Murray Dueck
Yes.
00;28;01;18 - 00;28;32;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right. But there's also deeper desires that I have that maybe not as chemically driven OC desires to be a good husband, desires to be a good father, desires to build up in love. The people around me, a desire to be, to embrace the humility of God, to look like Jesus, to look like the Father. Right? There's these deep urgings and longings within me, and there's also these other urgings and longings within me.
00;28;32;11 - 00;28;38;28
Joshua Hoffert
And so what what happens when I'm confronted all the time with the pressures of the world.
00;28;39;01 - 00;28;39;27
Murray Dueck
00;28;40;00 - 00;29;26;20
Joshua Hoffert
With the wars and rumors of wars that that Isaac is quoting Basil or what Antiochus has said is I'm actually always moved by the chemical desires greed, power, fame, lust, wealth, envy, all these things. And they become what defines me. The things that I want intensely become the things that define me. I've never actually given space for the true longing of my heart to begin to rise to the surface because I'm constantly assaulted by the things around me and and part of my my concern with prophetic ministry in regards to that regards with what we're saying is there's this need to be seen to be known, to be visible, to be successful, to have people
00;29;26;20 - 00;29;46;28
Joshua Hoffert
think well of us, to have people praise us. There's these are basic human things that we have a chemical reaction to. And unless we can move be moved from the place of actually like David, what do I want to do? I want to build something for God. Now, David doesn't actually get to build something for God because God goes, Hey, I love your heart, but I'm going to build your thing, right?
00;29;46;28 - 00;29;47;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;29;47;22 - 00;30;12;29
Joshua Hoffert
But, but the longing of his heart starts to bubble up to the surface when he's at rest and God has put his enemies to rest. So now you can start to see what is it I actually crave. Not a kingdom, not power, not authority, not lust, not wealth, not greed. What I desire is that the Lord would be pleased with who I am So.
00;30;13;02 - 00;30;27;00
Joshua Hoffert
So that's. That's. I'm just thinking as as Murray is sharing that it's very easy to get distracted when it comes to not even just prophetic ministry, but pastoral ministry when it comes to.
00;30;27;10 - 00;30;27;15
Murray Dueck
for.
00;30;27;15 - 00;30;43;15
Joshua Hoffert
Sure, you know, teaching ministry, healing ministry. Let's go after the next great thing, because we need people to continue to watch, to listen and to think about us. It's like, wow, we need to check that at the door.
00;30;43;18 - 00;31;04;06
Murray Dueck
And yeah, you know, I'm just going to add a bit on that too, because you're talking about ministers. But you know, for you listening, if you're not a minister, you know as, as well that you know what you know, how are you using prophetic ministry And let's just break that down into hearing God's voice because that's basically what is you listening Give it away, right?
00;31;04;08 - 00;31;09;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;31;09;26 - 00;31;27;28
Murray Dueck
One thing that I and I think it's true of anybody who's got a prophetic gift when people come to you, oftentimes, you know, we all want to be healed. We all want to be you know, we talked about it earlier. God provide for us. You know, we we want direction. We want. Right. We want right. We want our things.
00;31;27;28 - 00;31;32;22
Murray Dueck
We want, we want, we want. And I me, mine is the center of our world. What's good.
00;31;32;22 - 00;31;33;27
Murray Dueck
For me that's.
00;31;33;27 - 00;32;05;01
Murray Dueck
Mine. I need this, you know. And so really on our throne there. Well, you can you can approach a prophetic minister and be completely there. I need the breaker anointing. I need a destiny word. I need, you know, and and I think sometimes when we go get prayer and we don't get our break through or nothing's happening, the question that would be spiritual in that case would be, okay, so God hasn't taken away my pain at this moment.
00;32;05;04 - 00;32;24;20
Murray Dueck
God has not. I mean, remember, you know, Paul prayed, Lord, let this thorn in the flesh be taken for me. And God said, My grace is sufficient for you. So, yes, there is some biblical background for this. Yeah, but but I think if we're always just thinking about what we're going to get out of it, maybe a good question sometimes that we should ask it.
00;32;24;26 - 00;32;33;07
Murray Dueck
So, Lord, if you're not taking this away from me right now, how could you use what I'm going through to shape me into your image? Or what are you.
00;32;33;09 - 00;32;34;05
Murray Dueck
Taking to me through.
00;32;34;05 - 00;32;51;25
Murray Dueck
This? Right. Because that's a Christ Christ centric statement, right? Where you're actually like, man, but I want to escape it. I mean, that that can still be a passion, right? And, you know, we should ask, you know, Jesus acid cross would be taken away? Paul asked. But Lord said no. And I and I think I mean, I'll give you an example.
00;32;52;00 - 00;33;09;00
Murray Dueck
We were I was at a prayer meeting yesterday and it was kind of cool, you know, like I got that. I got to pray for the pastor and it was good. And I just I had this cool word about him throwing a javelin, you know, And then he he goes, You know what? I just drew that in my office before I came to the meeting.
00;33;09;03 - 00;33;10;05
Murray Dueck
Wow. That's pretty neat.
00;33;10;09 - 00;33;11;01
Murray Dueck
Yeah, well.
00;33;11;04 - 00;33;22;11
Murray Dueck
The next lady sits down, so I think I'm hearing pretty good, right? Sits down for prayer. And the Lord says to me, You know what? She's doing really well. She's learning to shut up.
00;33;22;14 - 00;33;25;16
Murray Dueck
And it and.
00;33;25;19 - 00;33;51;12
Murray Dueck
The problem is, is that she wants God to fix her husband, fix my husband, fix my husband. And isn't looking at maybe what she needs to fix. Right. What is Christ need to be for you in this situation. And and but humility and stillness and silence would teach you. Just shut up and sit there. What is Christ teaching you here?
00;33;51;15 - 00;34;06;26
Murray Dueck
Feel that in your heart and do that with Jesus. You know, be there, you know. And and I mean, just that little thought redefines prophetic ministry, right? It's about becoming not about what you're doing or what you need, you know? Right.
00;34;06;28 - 00;34;13;01
Joshua Hoffert
It's not it's not about your gift. It's about seeing him and being moved by him.
00;34;13;03 - 00;34;20;29
Murray Dueck
And, you know, I'll throw this out right here to just in this regard, because I think it fits in. I might have said it before, but, you know, anything that's really a gold from heaven is worth.
00;34;21;02 - 00;34;24;26
Joshua Hoffert
Just and just a minor. A minor tip for people is, yeah.
00;34;24;28 - 00;34;26;09
Murray Dueck
I never told her that face to face.
00;34;26;09 - 00;34;30;04
Joshua Hoffert
You might not want to say to someone, shut up in a ministry setting.
00;34;30;05 - 00;34;30;28
Murray Dueck
But she told me.
00;34;30;28 - 00;34;48;11
Murray Dueck
You're supposed to shut up. You know, I witnessed, you know, my spiritual father. I didn't tell her that at all in a public setting. I didn't tell her that at all. I just told my spiritual father goes, Yeah, that's actually we've had this talk and that's actually what's happening. So that's how I knew that's what God was doing.
00;34;48;11 - 00;34;50;05
Murray Dueck
It wasn't just, just.
00;34;50;06 - 00;34;52;20
Murray Dueck
You know, good prophetic application there, right?
00;34;52;20 - 00;34;54;15
Murray Dueck
Yes. You know, that's not very pastoral.
00;34;54;15 - 00;34;58;06
Murray Dueck
I mean, if my spiritual father would say, you know, she really needs to hear that, I would have told her.
00;34;58;06 - 00;34;58;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;34;58;14 - 00;35;09;11
Murray Dueck
Because he word said it with a smile and a wink. Right. He wasn't furrowing his brow, like finally, you know, he's like, you know, she's learning to control her need to control people with her mouth. That's good.
00;35;09;14 - 00;35;13;03
Murray Dueck
You know, that's that's a good thing. That is a good. So yeah.
00;35;13;05 - 00;35;30;17
Murray Dueck
So. Well, let's go back to business. Let's. Let's go. Let's do it that way. no, I'll, I'll, I'll share this with you. It's a piece of gold that that changed my life in this regard. I really needed an answer from the Lord. And like most of us, right, I go for a walk. My favorite place to hang out with God.
00;35;30;17 - 00;35;51;28
Murray Dueck
Got my cup of coffee, gets me in the zone and I'm worshiping. I'm thinking the Lord And I go, and finally I just go, God, I need an answer. What? What's the right answer? And he says, What do you think of those bushes over here? Those nice bushes? And I'm like, What? I can't be God, your AC race or, you know, go start walking, start worship and start thinking about the problem.
00;35;52;01 - 00;36;03;19
Murray Dueck
Very big problem. And I say, God, what am I supposed to do? And he goes, What do you think of those trees? Aren't those nice trees? And like, what? And then I realized I can hear God really, really well.
00;36;03;21 - 00;36;04;17
Murray Dueck
He just didn't want.
00;36;04;17 - 00;36;05;22
Murray Dueck
Talk about what I wanted.
00;36;05;22 - 00;36;07;19
Murray Dueck
To talk about, right? Yeah. Yeah.
00;36;07;21 - 00;36;37;16
Murray Dueck
Because I wanted the right answer to do the right thing. Right? Well, God wanted to spend time with me in relationship. And as I spent time with him to be converted into his image and become the thing I needed. Yeah, right. That that's very, very different. And you can tell everybody when you're doing this, when we get into our soul being stirred up and all these thoughts are happening in our passions, our emotions are getting out like, and usually what happens is you hear God, you're not getting your answers and you start to beat yourself up.
00;36;37;16 - 00;36;55;02
Murray Dueck
Well, got me because doesn't love me. Maybe he doesn't care. Maybe just want to talk to me. Maybe I can hear. You know what I ask God about anything else? Your friend, your church and anybody else. And if God speaks to you, that means you have no problem hearing. He just doesn't want to talk to you. What you want to talk about.
00;36;55;04 - 00;37;20;01
Murray Dueck
And will he? Eventually, Yeah. But when we're in our souls wanting to hear for our own salvation or, you know, sometimes we need a bit of a journey. We need to spend that time in intimacy, which stillness and and quiet the Lord or a big part of because there's this wiring that just gets going. Right? But do that if you can hear on on a topic, change the topic.
00;37;20;04 - 00;37;22;01
Murray Dueck
Yeah. See, I've got to talk to you about something else.
00;37;22;02 - 00;37;33;02
Joshua Hoffert
So, so good. It's it, it equally I just had this thought, Mary, as you were sharing that equally as important as the ability to prophesy is the ability to be formed.
00;37;33;04 - 00;37;33;18
Murray Dueck
Exactly.
00;37;33;18 - 00;37;37;18
Joshua Hoffert
And I think that's the part we're missing in prophetic ministry. The value we go.
00;37;37;18 - 00;37;42;02
Murray Dueck
You don't really right there is that, you know, that's the fulcrum of the bicycle wheel right there.
00;37;42;02 - 00;37;44;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah. What is it all about being formed?
00;37;44;27 - 00;38;09;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. And if you think if you think I have the ability to prophesy, therefore I should prophesy. No, no, no. You have the ability to prophesy. That's fine and dandy, but let's talk about your ability to be formed in his image and to to see him and become like him. Let's talk about that. That's that's where Mary and I are coming from when it comes to this intense regard for humility.
00;38;09;15 - 00;38;12;00
Murray Dueck
So glasses, you wear.
00;38;12;03 - 00;38;15;10
Murray Dueck
Whenever you pray for somebody or you hear God for yourself.
00;38;15;10 - 00;38;16;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right.
00;38;16;21 - 00;38;23;17
Murray Dueck
How does this form me? Yes, right. Because Jesus is looking for a bride, you know, He's not looking for a business partner.
00;38;23;17 - 00;38;33;28
Joshua Hoffert
If it's not if his image isn't being formed in me, then I tell the lady to shut up. When he says when he says that right. I never pause and go. How? What's the wisdom of application here?
00;38;34;01 - 00;38;35;17
Murray Dueck
Right? Yeah, it's a good example.
00;38;35;18 - 00;38;53;12
Joshua Hoffert
Just tell the person I remember being in a ministry setting and having a someone I was training. Tell the the why the husband wife couple were in front of us. Tell the wife that I feel like the Lord. Show me that you're really angry with your husband.
00;38;53;15 - 00;38;54;15
Murray Dueck
00;38;54;18 - 00;39;18;25
Joshua Hoffert
And that all that does is get people shackles up, right. There's a wisdom about it might be true. Now, I would contend that the person who received that revelation had problems with people in marriages. There's a whole other issue there. But but there's a wisdom of application that I can now pause, reflect, dialog with the Lord and say, How am I coming across with your tenderness and heart in this situation?
00;39;18;28 - 00;39;24;27
Joshua Hoffert
And if I don't have the ability to be formed, then I will hurt people with my ability to be prophesy.
00;39;24;29 - 00;39;28;23
Murray Dueck
And we have an orphan spirit. You we have an orphan spirit.
00;39;28;25 - 00;39;54;02
Joshua Hoffert
And that's that's, you know, that's another thing you could say that the the the disciplines of solitude and silence. One of the things Mary and I'll get to is the disciplines of solitude and silence lead us to the attitude of stillness. And the the attitude of stillness is really what it means to eradicate awfulness in the heart, because it means I don't actually need to move or do anything to prove myself.
00;39;54;09 - 00;39;57;04
Joshua Hoffert
I can just be. And, and, and.
00;39;57;05 - 00;39;57;26
Murray Dueck
That's just the.
00;39;57;26 - 00;39;59;01
Murray Dueck
Lifestyle you take.
00;39;59;01 - 00;40;00;25
Murray Dueck
It becomes of you as you do stuff.
00;40;00;27 - 00;40;09;12
Murray Dueck
Right? Your heart becomes still and you're doing stuff and you know your motives. You know why you're doing it? Because you have this still place inside of you with Jesus.
00;40;09;17 - 00;40;12;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right.
00;40;12;14 - 00;40;28;02
Murray Dueck
And by the way, anytime I prophesy over anybody, everybody, I always go, just so you know, I'm going to do my part for us. Only in five Do you agree with Spirit? Do you not despise prophecy? Now you do your part, test everything, hang on to the good. Because just because I say it isn't going to make it right.
00;40;28;03 - 00;40;29;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Fruit enter.
00;40;29;13 - 00;40;35;11
Murray Dueck
Witness confirmation. Bounce it, people Scripture. Right. And if I'm wrong, please tell.
00;40;35;11 - 00;40;38;07
Murray Dueck
Me you know what's funny. That's always the way to to go.
00;40;38;07 - 00;40;40;03
Murray Dueck
Because you want a humility, right?
00;40;40;05 - 00;40;47;21
Joshua Hoffert
Just you know what's funny? Just an aside to that, Mary. This this would probably send us down. We don't have to talk about this because it'll send us down.
00;40;47;24 - 00;40;48;29
Murray Dueck
Topic is I.
00;40;48;29 - 00;40;50;11
Murray Dueck
Love podcasts because you can do it everything.
00;40;50;12 - 00;40;51;25
Murray Dueck
That's true it's not like.
00;40;51;28 - 00;41;11;09
Joshua Hoffert
When when Nathan prophesies to David in second Samuel seven right and the the same in Second Chronicles Maybe it's first Chronicles. Maybe the first Chronicles is recorded and first chronicles the Nathan's prophecy to David. It's not the same prophecy.
00;41;11;11 - 00;41;11;28
Murray Dueck
00;41;12;00 - 00;41;14;11
Joshua Hoffert
It changed. It changes from one to the other.
00;41;14;13 - 00;41;15;13
Murray Dueck
You know that.
00;41;15;13 - 00;41;41;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, there's it's almost identical, but there's there are there's one sentence that changes drastically between the two. And it's when he says in in second Samuel seven, it's verse 14, he says something to the effect that if, if he commits iniquity I will chastise him with the rod and you know, and my mercy will never depart from him that doesn't exist.
00;41;41;21 - 00;41;44;05
Joshua Hoffert
In the first Chronicles passage.
00;41;44;08 - 00;41;45;06
Murray Dueck
He says, he says.
00;41;45;07 - 00;42;03;23
Joshua Hoffert
Something different so that the author changed what Nathan said by one sentence between the two different authors. Anyway, just food for thought for people. You know, these these kind of. Anyway, I don't want to go down the whole rabbit trail, but.
00;42;03;25 - 00;42;05;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's a gold teaching right.
00;42;05;02 - 00;42;06;02
Joshua Hoffert
There. That's a whole.
00;42;06;02 - 00;42;07;05
Murray Dueck
One. You can find.
00;42;07;06 - 00;42;10;14
Murray Dueck
Stuff like that, just so you know, Joshua's website.
00;42;10;14 - 00;42;11;18
Murray Dueck
LOTZ That's right.
00;42;11;21 - 00;42;13;18
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
00;42;13;21 - 00;42;16;12
Murray Dueck
And you've got some other podcast, too, which people can look up if they want.
00;42;16;16 - 00;42;25;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, just you can look up the Wind Ministries podcast. Yeah. We published so periodically from different series that we've been teaching, that kind of stuff.
00;42;25;04 - 00;42;26;05
Murray Dueck
Yeah, good stuff.
00;42;26;09 - 00;42;28;09
Joshua Hoffert
Okay, getting back to baseball.
00;42;28;11 - 00;42;51;02
Murray Dueck
Back to okay, let's see here did it. Only when a man enters stillness can his soul distinguish the passions. So stuff we've been talking about lusting after things, desiring things, putting yourself on the throne, you know, Why did that? Why did that make me angry with that person? Said, you know, distinguishing, you know, our motives and all these things.
00;42;51;02 - 00;42;52;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's the.
00;42;52;13 - 00;43;23;09
Joshua Hoffert
The contemplative literature refers to the things like greed and lust and power and control, that kind of stuff as passions. That's, that's the that's the terminology for then for those that aren't familiar with that terminology. Yeah. That's the terminology that the in the patristic age they used to define the, the disintegrating effects of humanity as the things that kind of the kind of make us less than human and take us away from a place of love and affection and tenderness to the father.
00;43;23;09 - 00;43;29;27
Joshua Hoffert
So they're juxtaposed you could think vices do. It's kind of a similar concept. Yeah. They're juxtaposed with.
00;43;30;00 - 00;43;31;03
Murray Dueck
The old man.
00;43;31;03 - 00;43;48;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, the old man. They're juxtaposed with the virtues so that the life of flesh in four in Galatians VI versus the life of the spirit vices, passions versus virtues. So that's what when Murray says the the passions, that's what essentially they're referring to. So sorry, Murray, just giving people context for that.
00;43;48;24 - 00;44;27;24
Murray Dueck
no, no. It's actually very, very good because we're going to run again. Anytime we quote this, it'll come back many, many times. Only when a man enters stillness can he, his sole distinguished use the word discern there the passions and prudently search out her own wisdom. So the result of all of this is what then the inner man also awakens for spiritual work, and day by day he perceives the hidden wisdom which blossoms forth in his soul and and the point is, is that underneath all this flotsam and jetsam that is going through our thoughts and our emotions underneath all of that is the river out of flowing out of our own hearts.
00;44;27;27 - 00;45;00;23
Murray Dueck
And it's there. But and, you know, the contemplative writers like Teresa, I think if Avila had said, you know, it sounds like my thoughts are a thousand birds in the trees all cackling at the same time, you know, it's I remember Father Saint Simeon, the new theologian, said since the fall, the enemy has access to our thinking, you know, so I think the best colloquial expression for that would be, you know, you think you can't keep a bird from flying over your head, but you can keep it from building a nest in your hair.
00;45;00;26 - 00;45;02;13
Joshua Hoffert
I heard I heard Luther said that one.
00;45;02;13 - 00;45;05;01
Murray Dueck
Actually, that's. was it the last part about the bird?
00;45;05;01 - 00;45;05;21
Joshua Hoffert
Not the bird?
00;45;05;21 - 00;45;07;21
Murray Dueck
No. I didn't know who said that colloquial expression.
00;45;07;21 - 00;45;11;01
Joshua Hoffert
But I'm not. I can't corroborate that. But I've always heard that it was a loser.
00;45;11;06 - 00;45;12;08
Murray Dueck
I hope that's true.
00;45;12;16 - 00;45;13;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;45;13;06 - 00;45;30;04
Murray Dueck
So the point is, all these thoughts and we all have them. They're going on all the time. But underneath it, underneath it all, there is something. If we gave it time, be still and No. Yeah, you still are. No. Adam knew Eve. I think that could even be that word there. Well.
00;45;30;06 - 00;45;30;19
Joshua Hoffert
You know.
00;45;30;19 - 00;45;31;28
Murray Dueck
You look it up, it could be.
00;45;31;29 - 00;45;55;04
Joshua Hoffert
Where it says distinguish the passions. And I love I love the analogy because I'll just add one other thing to that, Mary, that the the flotsam and jetsam that are that are just on the surface there that that we see. I would say that when you look at the contemplative authors or the desert fathers, that beneath the flock, the floats them and the jetsam is that's that's where the passions are.
00;45;55;07 - 00;45;59;16
Joshua Hoffert
And then beneath that, then we start to discover the river, because what happens.
00;45;59;16 - 00;46;00;17
Murray Dueck
Is, yes.
00;46;00;20 - 00;46;03;23
Joshua Hoffert
Mary Murray says an unkind thing to me.
00;46;03;26 - 00;46;04;17
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;46;04;17 - 00;46;09;21
Joshua Hoffert
And so I respond in anger. Right? This is the passage I.
00;46;09;21 - 00;46;10;18
Murray Dueck
She would never do that.
00;46;10;18 - 00;46;33;28
Joshua Hoffert
This is the. No, I never would. This is the passion that flames out and lashes out at Murray when he says something unkind to me. Right. But if I were to be in that place of stillness and the anger started to come up, I would catch the anger and go, Why is that anger coming? And I would see that below the flow and the jetsam is actually rejection.
00;46;34;00 - 00;46;34;23
Murray Dueck
00;46;34;26 - 00;46;59;17
Joshua Hoffert
And so now actually I have a rejection. And so I have a wound that is manifesting in a passion. And so now I can go, God, bring your spirit here. Bring healing to this wound of rejection, because I'm only responding and I'm reacting not out of your character, not out of I know who you who you are, but out of my wound in my pain.
00;46;59;19 - 00;47;24;28
Joshua Hoffert
So that actually one one particular author writing about the Desert Fathers says our passions are our inner wounds. And wow, coming to grips with those things and seeing them transformed is actually the process. And and so now beneath that, now that I can start to go, I've caught the anger. I recognize its source, the Holy Spirit's bringing comfort to that place of rejection or reminding me that he's for me and he's with me and he loves me.
00;47;25;05 - 00;47;35;15
Joshua Hoffert
Now beneath that, I start to see that place of stillness. And I'm right back in that in, you know, it's that, it's the you know, if you're at the water park, right, it's the lazy river that you just get to float along.
00;47;36;05 - 00;47;37;04
Murray Dueck
I love that.
00;47;37;07 - 00;47;56;12
Joshua Hoffert
Nice and gentle right now. Now I've caught myself back from the flame of the passion and brought myself right back into that place of stillness. And so that actually the the the the contemplative authors call that the other word they use for stillness is dispassion.
00;47;56;15 - 00;47;57;17
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's right.
00;47;57;18 - 00;48;26;06
Joshua Hoffert
That doesn't mean to to lack passion in the sense of we think, you know, caring about something that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that it means not being moved and and the not being moved is actually probably you can think of it this way, actually. Gregory the Great says this specifically in regards to prophetic ministry. He says, You are ready to cleave that.
00;48;26;09 - 00;48;50;06
Joshua Hoffert
How does he say to anyway, he talks about the the words you use, but anyway, he says it this way. He says, When you are not moved by the praises of men to pride or moved to anger by the criticism of men, then you're ready to be used. Specifically is tying that into prophetic ministry in the homilies on the Prophet Ezekiel.
00;48;50;08 - 00;49;12;01
Joshua Hoffert
So when you're not moved too much by praise and crushed too much by criticism, now the Lord has something you can start to work with. And and I wholeheartedly endorse what Gregory has to say right there, because now we've now we're in that place of stillness, because I've put myself in solitude, in silence. I've quieted the stuff around me.
00;49;12;04 - 00;49;30;14
Joshua Hoffert
I've recognized that it's the grace of God to give rest to my enemies. Right? Psalm 23 says that she makes me lie down in green pastures. Not I lie myself down. He makes me lie, makes me right. That's the be still in know that I am God. I can only be still if I know that he's gone So makes this thing come to rest.
00;49;30;14 - 00;49;47;19
Joshua Hoffert
And now that he's made it come to rest, when the anger comes up, I go, that's anger. That's not natural to who I am. That's trying to get me to lash out at my friend who I know cares about me openly. That anger is rejection or anxiety or worry, you know, or whatever happens now, the Lord brings healing to that.
00;49;47;19 - 00;50;01;17
Joshua Hoffert
Now I'm back in that place of stillness. So. So that's that is really he brings us to the place of rest, and then we can capture that. And the desert fathers actually called up the mystics call it watchfulness of heart.
00;50;01;19 - 00;50;03;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I actually was going to go right there.
00;50;03;10 - 00;50;04;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Go follow.
00;50;04;29 - 00;50;25;28
Murray Dueck
All this. And, you know, there's one more sentence left which fits in with it. And you can find this quote. If you type in Isaac the Syrian basil on stillness, it'll come up. Let's see here. Then. The inner man also awakens for spiritual work, and day by day he perceives the hidden wisdom which blossoms in his soul. And here's a summation.
00;50;26;00 - 00;50;49;19
Murray Dueck
So if you do all this, everybody, what happens? Stillness. Mortify the outward senses and resurrects the inward movements, whereas the outward manner of life does the opposite. That is, it resurrects outward senses and deadens the inward movements. So, you know, if you give in to anger, you're not paying much attention what's going on inside you, right? If you learn to be still and not engage, boy, this is a good opportunity for anger.
00;50;49;24 - 00;51;11;23
Murray Dueck
I think I'll just stay in thankfulness. Yeah. Lord, you're talking to me. So. And I'll quote, Has a kiss right here, because one of the great writers on attention and sobriety, you know, which is pay attention what's going on in your heart Once the heart has been perfectly emptied of mental images. So all the flotsam and jetsam, he's not saying don't think.
00;51;11;23 - 00;51;31;21
Murray Dueck
He's saying, hey, get all that junk out of there. It gives birth to Divine and mystical concepts that play within it. Just as fish and dolphins play in a calm sea. As the sea is rippled when a soft the breeze moves over it. So it is with the heart's a bit moved by the Holy Spirit as it is written because you are a sun.
00;51;31;22 - 00;51;50;25
Murray Dueck
God has sent the spirit of your son into your heart. Crying Abba Father, It's like, this is going on and we're just not aware of it, you know? And I'll give you guys an example of, of this. So and then maybe we'll talk just a little bit how to do it, you know, because because you might be like, well, how do I do that?
00;51;50;25 - 00;51;53;18
Murray Dueck
You know, I sit there and just hold my breath. I go, don't take, don't think, don't think.
00;51;53;18 - 00;51;55;21
Murray Dueck
I know that's not the way to go. Yeah.
00;51;55;22 - 00;52;18;20
Murray Dueck
So anyway, so I was went through kind of a nasty split. This is years ago. I've been through like eight or nine, so I'm just referring to one particular one. And these people left my left the ministry and were very, very angry. And she was kind of going through a bit of a cancer scare and he'd lost his job.
00;52;18;22 - 00;52;31;19
Murray Dueck
And so I didn't say what I needed to say. I just took it on the nose, you know, just what was what. You know, you don't want to hurt people more. But I honestly, for about a year in my brain, I would be driving around just well, I would say this, that you'd say this and I'd say this.
00;52;31;19 - 00;52;48;06
Murray Dueck
And it was really, really hurtful. Hurt my family, hurt, hurt by white. It was very hurtful, you know, very good friends of mine. And and what I did was so there was a passion. It it hooked me and I and I thought it was unfair and maybe I should have said what I needed to say at the time.
00;52;48;06 - 00;53;12;28
Murray Dueck
I think maybe I probably should have at least kindly. And and so I began to just sit with the Lord, you know, maybe I would just stand. So I'm 23. That's the way to do it. Just soak yourself in scripture. You know what God's given you Some 91 huge walls in a secret place will rest. Think of that.
00;53;12;28 - 00;53;30;29
Murray Dueck
The little river right at the at the water slide under the shadow of the am. I say 10,000 will fall at your one side, a thousand on your other, but it will not come near you. Stillness is very powerful. And so one day, and this is quite a way in maybe eight months I'd have these thoughts come at me and they'd make me angry.
00;53;31;04 - 00;53;48;20
Murray Dueck
I get this thought, Why those people? And then I'd get angry and then I'd want to say stuff and I go, You know, I need to stop this. I mean, it's out of my wounding. You know, I got hurt. It was it was painful. And, you know, I just practiced loving on Jesus, just ignoring it. Yeah. I got into healing.
00;53;48;20 - 00;54;11;06
Murray Dueck
Yes. I rebuke the devil. I got people to pray for me. I confess. I said I did all that stuff, which we should all do. I think it's important. And one day I was just having a shower, getting ready for my day, doing pretty good. And this thought goes through my brain. Why those people? They did this? And I'm like, Wait a minute, why am I thinking about that?
00;54;11;08 - 00;54;38;20
Murray Dueck
I haven't thought about that in days. And I realized, you know what? That wasn't my thought. That was the enemy popping something into my brain disturb me up. And, you know, I hadn't been still enough to catch it because I was willing to engage in that argument and that fight. I was willing to engage it. And instead of just ignoring it, you know, rebuke the enemy, we take every thought captive, right?
00;54;38;20 - 00;55;03;00
Murray Dueck
And we pull down strongholds and and, you know, sometimes just being still gets rid of that layer where, you know, the enemy accuses. And you know what happened to me actually, yesterday, I was just for some reason I'm in the in the just working on the farm, doing my stuff. And I'm like, you know, that leader, if that wouldn't have happened And I'm like, where is that coming from?
00;55;03;02 - 00;55;25;20
Murray Dueck
Why am I thinking about this? You know? And learning to let the peace of God guard your heart in your mind. It means that like set and that would be called sobriety or attention. Just learning how to catch this layer and stillness. You know what it teaches you to just stay in a loving gaze of Jesus. So. So anything you want to add to that?
00;55;25;20 - 00;55;39;28
Murray Dueck
And then maybe I'll, you know, I'll just tell people, hey, here's how you can practice. It's just very we're going to do a lot more on this at some point on Prayer of the Heart and and.
00;55;40;00 - 00;55;45;04
Joshua Hoffert
You know, I had.
00;55;45;06 - 00;55;49;26
Murray Dueck
And I'm in again we need to go back and now talk about what do you mean thoughts? Those weren't your thoughts. I mean, yeah, you.
00;55;49;26 - 00;55;51;12
Murray Dueck
Know, a whole other topic also.
00;55;51;19 - 00;55;55;00
Murray Dueck
And I would recommend again The Mountain of Silence. I was asked about this.
00;55;55;06 - 00;55;55;22
Murray Dueck
Quite a bit.
00;55;55;22 - 00;55;56;06
Joshua Hoffert
Say that.
00;55;56;06 - 00;55;59;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah. Their book we recommended earlier. Yeah.
00;55;59;06 - 00;56;24;14
Joshua Hoffert
There's got to come full circle. Right. The, the, the mountain of silence. There's, I like the metaphor that we're working on with the flotsam and jetsam. Yeah. That, you know, you're talking about the stuff that's hitting the surface ice and going deeper and deeper than that. Right? And not not letting the surface things be the place that you stop and you know that.
00;56;24;20 - 00;56;54;20
Joshua Hoffert
So the mountain of silence, what what Murray's referring to there is the the teachings in the fathers about the nature of the thought life. And basically they talk about things that are you you could call potent thoughts and their thoughts that are more than just kind of the passing fancy, but they try and lodge themselves in and and the and the teachings of the fathers basically say, look, you're not strong.
00;56;54;20 - 00;57;08;20
Joshua Hoffert
These are more than just a a a natural thought. These are thoughts that have a spiritual backing, a spiritual backing to them so that the the technical term is the Greek word like is.
00;57;08;20 - 00;57;09;22
Murray Dueck
My.
00;57;09;24 - 00;57;40;08
Joshua Hoffert
Leg, is my and so so anyway, so they'd say you can't fight against them because they want to, they want to create a battle. So so Murray's advice is actually excellent advice, finally, because the advice is not and this is something that I find is so helpful, especially dealing with, you know, lustful thoughts and angry thoughts, because those things grab us right?
00;57;40;11 - 00;57;41;24
Joshua Hoffert
And they happen to us.
00;57;42;02 - 00;57;42;22
Murray Dueck
This kind of thought.
00;57;42;28 - 00;57;51;25
Joshua Hoffert
We don't plan for them to happen to us. You know, I use the early example of walking down the mall and catching a glimpse of the Victoria's Secret model on the wall. Right. I don't.
00;57;51;25 - 00;57;53;04
Murray Dueck
Plan.
00;57;53;06 - 00;58;05;04
Joshua Hoffert
For a lustful thought to happen to me. It just happens, right? Someone cuts me off. I don't plan to get angry. It just happens. And so the problem is not so much the lustful.
00;58;05;04 - 00;58;05;27
Murray Dueck
Thought.
00;58;05;29 - 00;58;19;18
Joshua Hoffert
Being the flotsam and jetsam or the angry thought being the flotsam and jetsam. That's not the problem. The problem is when I try and grab it and go, Let me get rid of this piece. Now, I'm not going.
00;58;19;18 - 00;58;21;19
Murray Dueck
Somebody says, don't think about an elephant.
00;58;21;24 - 00;58;23;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yes, not because now.
00;58;23;09 - 00;58;24;01
Murray Dueck
What you doing is.
00;58;24;01 - 00;58;25;00
Murray Dueck
Thinking about an elephant.
00;58;25;05 - 00;58;46;14
Joshua Hoffert
On. All I can do is think about the scantily clad woman or how angry I am, Right? That's all I can do. Because now I'm looking at it and I'm trying to fight the thought. But the thought has more power than I have to control the thought, because that's exactly what the enemy wants is like, let me give you something that's going to lodge itself into your consciousness, which is what Murray's describing there.
00;58;46;21 - 00;59;03;05
Joshua Hoffert
The enemy goes, Hey, let's let's keep thinking about how angry you are, because if I can keep you thinking about how angry you are, then you're never going to pierce, you're never going to peer down below the surface and see the river and see the movement of the Holy Spirit and see the tenderness of the Father and be with him.
00;59;03;09 - 00;59;21;27
Joshua Hoffert
Well, Murray had gone back to that place, so the thought was foreign, and Murray didn't say, Well, let me deal with the thought, Murray said. Let me get back to gazing at the father, because this thought doesn't jive with his presence. And that's the actual strategy and that's the strategy Most people miss. This is where I love the teachings of the mystics and the contemplative is.
00;59;22;00 - 00;59;45;09
Joshua Hoffert
I was just reading about this actually in the book I the Unseen warfare book that Theo Van translated was showing you Murray, where where the fight is not to remove the thought from your life. The thought is to or the fight is to get your gaze reoriented on the father, because he's the one that makes me lie down and still pastures, right?
00;59;45;12 - 01;00;07;25
Joshua Hoffert
He's the one that caused David to have rest from his enemies when David was dwelling in his heart. So God is the one who does the fighting. We don't have the power to do the fighting. Is it is inadvisable for you to fight against the thoughts that assail you. It is advisable for you to fight to get back to the gaze with the father.
01;00;07;27 - 01;00;27;20
Joshua Hoffert
I'm seeing him. I'm knowing him. I'm aware of him now. He fights on my behalf and and the thoughts diminish because I haven't given them place and they just go rushing on down that stream that's trying to get me distracted and then they're not there anymore. And I'm back there in that place of loving kindness and loving affection with the father.
01;00;27;22 - 01;00;44;18
Murray Dueck
I think I've read in a couple of places people actually talk about that like a stream, like there's a stream in the boat on it. And the boat, you know, they're floating by these boats in these rafts and they're like thoughts. And you can stand on the bank and watch them go by or you can get grabbed by one and get on that boat, right?
01;00;44;20 - 01;00;51;24
Murray Dueck
You got to get out, get out of it. Go back on the bank and observe it. there's one of those again. Let's just let it go by looking at Jesus.
01;00;51;27 - 01;00;53;07
Murray Dueck
That's right. Right, exactly.
01;00;53;09 - 01;00;58;04
Joshua Hoffert
And it's such a simple strategy. It was profound, which is profoundly impactful for me.
01;00;58;07 - 01;00;58;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah, me.
01;00;58;21 - 01;01;06;25
Joshua Hoffert
Too. You know, you get these strange thoughts that occur to you and you think your thoughts define you. And that's what the modern culture wants to say to you is your thoughts. Define you. You know your.
01;01;06;25 - 01;01;07;16
Murray Dueck
Thoughts are you.
01;01;07;17 - 01;01;08;11
Joshua Hoffert
Your thoughts are.
01;01;08;11 - 01;01;08;27
Murray Dueck
Your not.
01;01;08;27 - 01;01;19;24
Joshua Hoffert
Your and your most intense cravings are who are what define you. Right? And it's like that defines sexuality. Now that defines. Yes. Your your.
01;01;19;24 - 01;01;20;10
Murray Dueck
Horrible.
01;01;20;12 - 01;01;42;02
Joshua Hoffert
You know, the call that you know the craving for wealth defines the call in your life. I need to be powerful and I need to be wealthy or, you know, I'm I'm same sex attracted or I'm gender dysphoric or whatever, you know, it's like it's like it's like the world wants you to be convinced that every passing thought you have is what defines you.
01;01;42;05 - 01;02;03;00
Joshua Hoffert
And the father's going to actually know I'm way under the surface, drawing you to a place of loving tenderness. The gaze at me. And I think this is this is something that if someone hopes to be used in prophetic ministry, my prayer is that they grasp this concept and implement.
01;02;03;00 - 01;02;03;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah, and.
01;02;03;13 - 01;02;05;18
Murray Dueck
We could break it down a lot more than this.
01;02;05;21 - 01;02;06;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we really could.
01;02;07;00 - 01;02;08;06
Murray Dueck
And we will and we will.
01;02;08;06 - 01;02;14;03
Murray Dueck
But it's know as far as right now, this these are the Morton most important.
01;02;14;03 - 01;02;16;01
Murray Dueck
That's right. Bullet points.
01;02;16;04 - 01;02;17;27
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
01;02;17;29 - 01;02;21;10
Murray Dueck
And you know, if you're like, well, how do you do that? I would suggest.
01;02;21;12 - 01;02;23;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, let's go there. You know, it's great.
01;02;23;03 - 01;02;33;10
Murray Dueck
The desert fathers would say the heart is like a bowl of soup. You let it get cold, the flies get in. But if you keep it hot, it drives the flies away. Your only job is to keep your heart hot.
01;02;33;13 - 01;02;34;29
Murray Dueck
Yes, that's it.
01;02;35;01 - 01;02;56;10
Murray Dueck
So the flies then, and metaphor, of course, are are the demonic or these thoughts. And and so they would say think of it like this. Your era. You just got engaged and you just, you know, put put the engagement ring on your on your future wife's finger and you walk through a smelly, smelly garbage dump. Do you smell it?
01;02;56;12 - 01;03;03;09
Murray Dueck
No. You're so in joy and in love with your spouse. You don't even smell it. You could be in the stinky, horrible part of town. You're not even aware of it.
01;03;03;11 - 01;03;03;20
Murray Dueck
Right?
01;03;03;25 - 01;03;23;22
Murray Dueck
That keeping your heart hot for the Lord stay there with Jesus. Right. And so the thing you need to just kind of keep in mind is your heart is always opening or its closing. It's getting full of fear and anger and getting tight or it's getting full of rejoicing. And Thanksgiving an opening. And so the heart is like a muscle.
01;03;23;22 - 01;03;45;05
Murray Dueck
Whatever you're looking at, it's going to respond to. So if you're thinking angry thoughts, you're going to feel anger for thinking, judgmental thoughts. You're going to feel judgmental. If you're thinking peaceful thoughts, your heart responds. It opens like a gate, right? So that's why Paul would say these in prison people are freaking out. And he says to them, I pray God would strengthen you in the inner man.
01;03;45;07 - 01;04;08;27
Murray Dueck
Christ may dwell in your heart by faith. May you know, you could strengthen your inner man first. So you would know how high and wide and long and deep is a love of God that surpasses greatness, gnosis, head knowledge so that you may be filled to all this. Follow the spirit. You know that that's the end result. Inner man plus Christ in the heart, plus knowing all high and wide and long is equals being filled with the spirit, right?
01;04;09;04 - 01;04;32;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Can I say can I say this more? Just. Just because the practical application and I want you to keep going is I want someone I want people to see this though in the practical application is the if if you work backwards from Ephesians three in that Ephesians three passage, right, Paul's prayer is that you would be filled with the fullness of Christ.
01;04;32;20 - 01;05;01;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right. That's what, that's what the end result is. Yeah. Right. And so the, the step to getting there is knowing the depth and breadth and unlimited nature of his love. Absolute right. So you can't get too filled with the fullness if you don't enter into an awareness and appreciation of his love, his tender affection for you. Okay. And this is what this is.
01;05;01;17 - 01;05;19;01
Joshua Hoffert
This is the practical application, right? Is this. Well, I want to because because this is what people do right in is with what you've described is I'm angry and now I'm going to fight that anger. Okay.
01;05;19;01 - 01;05;19;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah, exactly.
01;05;20;00 - 01;05;44;10
Joshua Hoffert
Because I want to, as a Ephesians three said, be filled with the fullness of God. Okay. Paul doesn't pray that you'd be strengthened to fight against anger. He prays that you would be strengthened in your inner man to know the depth of the love so that you can look like him, right? Saying filled with this fullness. So to get to the point where we all want, you know, as Christians, we all want to look like Jesus.
01;05;44;10 - 01;06;09;14
Joshua Hoffert
We want to be filled with the fullness, the divine fullness, right? Ephesians three. But to fight the anger is actually to become aware of his love, not to fight the anger. And that's the practical step of being filled with his fullness, is becoming aware of his tender affection for me. So what what the practical step is getting away from fighting against all this stuff.
01;06;09;17 - 01;06;12;12
Joshua Hoffert
This will say, give up the fight.
01;06;12;15 - 01;06;15;00
Murray Dueck
Just, just and that. Did the Deborah's fathers teach?
01;06;15;02 - 01;06;23;05
Murray Dueck
Just what did Jesus do in the desert when the enemy was coming? Adam just quoted scripture and then quit the argument and didn't argue anymore.
01;06;23;09 - 01;06;25;28
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly. Yeah. So go ahead.
01;06;25;29 - 01;06;46;21
Murray Dueck
More so. So, you know, again, we're talking it's the heart awakening. You know, we're really just quoting Paul Philippians four, Rejoice again. I always say rejoice. Where's that? Where do you experience that in your heart? Let your I hate to translate it sometimes just read so badly. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand.
01;06;46;21 - 01;07;07;06
Murray Dueck
Do not be anxious about anything but in prayer and supplication with Thanksgiving. So let your request be known to God and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds. So that talks about a pretorian guard being around your heart that nothing gets in so thankful. I think. Think about the person walking through the garbage dump who just got engaged.
01;07;07;08 - 01;07;32;25
Murray Dueck
Doesn't smell it that love. When you're staying in thankfulness causes your heart to open and then the flow of the spirit flows through that. And if you look at Ephesians five might have this wrong. Do you not be drunk with wine but be filled with the Holy Spirit? How do you do that? Sing songs and spiritual songs to the Lord from your heart location with Thanksgiving, right?
01;07;32;26 - 01;07;59;14
Murray Dueck
So. So the thing you want to learn how to do very simply, I would suggest, you know, when you do your do your worship time, do your Bible study, and then sit with the Lord and just for 5 minutes, allow your heart to be warmed and be thankful and just love Jesus. How high and wide and long and deep and just sit there silently for 5 minutes or just quietly see Jesus.
01;07;59;14 - 01;08;05;12
Murray Dueck
I love you, I love you. And just let your heart be thankful.
01;08;05;14 - 01;08;05;22
Murray Dueck
Right?
01;08;05;23 - 01;08;23;25
Murray Dueck
Just start right there. And if you want to add a little piece to that, like what if my mind wanders everywhere? You know, I would recommend Madam John's little book and you can get it for free on Christian Ethereal library. And it would be called either experiencing the depths of Christ, I think it's called. They're a short method of Prayer.
01;08;23;27 - 01;08;24;18
Murray Dueck
And I do.
01;08;24;19 - 01;08;28;26
Joshua Hoffert
The same book. That's it's the same book. They're two different titles. Same book.
01;08;28;28 - 01;08;47;04
Murray Dueck
Just read chapter three. It's all you got to do. If you're really lazy, you could skip the rest. And you know what she does? She just take a psalm and read it until you feel the presence of God and then you stop. The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not be in want. there's a presence and just stop.
01;08;47;06 - 01;09;11;04
Murray Dueck
Be thankful that your heart or. And if your mind wanders, that part of you, that flotsam and jetsam, start quoting the scripture again. Either pick up where you left off. He leads me away. Still, waters he restores my soul and you feel the breath. Just stop and be still. Be thankful and just. Just practice that. That that's enough to get you started.
01;09;11;04 - 01;09;36;09
Joshua Hoffert
And if, if, if even that here, just let me add this. If even that is too difficult for you because maybe you go Well, I don't know what it's like to keep my heart warm. I've never had that experience. Right? Is talking about the presence of God. I know what that's like right before you start reading Psalm 23, or which are some 51 or 91 or 139, all these ones that really stand out to us, right.
01;09;36;09 - 01;09;45;15
Joshua Hoffert
That are really impactful before you start reading, spend a few minutes thinking about someone who made you feel loved in your life.
01;09;45;17 - 01;09;46;07
Murray Dueck
Wonderful.
01;09;46;11 - 01;09;51;03
Joshua Hoffert
Just who who in your life. Maybe it's a parent, maybe it's a grandparent, maybe it's an.
01;09;51;03 - 01;09;52;11
Murray Dueck
Animal.
01;09;52;13 - 01;10;23;24
Joshua Hoffert
You know, some some somebody that showed you enduring affection or, undying affection, you know, unending affection. Just think about that person. Just how did they make you feel? How did they make you respond? What were they like that impacted you? And then and then thank God for that person. Amen. Thank you, Father, for that person. Thank you for putting them in my life.
01;10;23;26 - 01;10;41;28
Joshua Hoffert
Thank you for showing me what you're like through them. Then get into 23. So just start with that. If you're going. I can't. I can't quite get to that place of warmth. Go. Well, just think about someone who made you feel warm. Was God gave you that? That person's gift from the father's heart to you to remind you of what he's like.
01;10;42;00 - 01;10;44;20
Murray Dueck
Amen. Given to you intentionally.
01;10;44;22 - 01;10;45;26
Murray Dueck
As a model.
01;10;45;28 - 01;10;46;17
Murray Dueck
Of the Heavenly.
01;10;46;17 - 01;11;11;29
Joshua Hoffert
Father. Exactly. That's Paul. Paul talks about this, right? Imitate me as you saw me imitate Christ. Right? Look at me. Remind yourself of me. And then go do the kind of things that you saw me do. So think about that person who made you feel safe, loved, cared for all that, and then get to the solemn thing because you go, that's what that's the that's the person I'm looking for.
01;11;12;01 - 01;11;18;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, because that's the person that reminds me of the father's affection, his tenderness, his love, his mercy, kindness.
01;11;18;06 - 01;11;22;21
Murray Dueck
And and Paul says very clearly what you've seen heard me do.
01;11;22;21 - 01;11;23;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right.
01;11;23;21 - 01;11;24;14
Murray Dueck
He's got.
01;11;24;14 - 01;11;25;07
Murray Dueck
A piece. Will be Will.
01;11;25;10 - 01;11;50;00
Joshua Hoffert
Remember how I was. And it'll remind you of how he is. That's what Paul's saying right there that remember how I am. And think about Paul's when Paul says that he's his. And sometimes we can miss this point. But if you want a perspective of Paul and his affection for the people that he led, look at Romans 15, like the guy loved the people he walked with.
01;11;50;02 - 01;11;55;24
Joshua Hoffert
There's there's certain people, one of them, one of my favorite people in all of scripture is up and is because.
01;11;55;28 - 01;11;56;10
Murray Dueck
really?
01;11;56;10 - 01;12;20;18
Joshua Hoffert
Only thing that's ever said about happiness is this is my beloved epithet is that's all that's all we know about him is that Paul loved him and and Paul didn't think he didn't need to know anything else about anything else except that Paul loved him. So wrote read Romans 15 through the lens of Paul's affection and then when Paul says, The things you've heard in me also do right, and the God of peace will be with you.
01;12;20;23 - 01;12;40;08
Joshua Hoffert
So Paul's going, Remember how affectionate I was for you? The father's the same way he'll be with you when you think about me, because this is the way I am with you, is the way he is with you. And that's what Paul saying, is he's absolutely using this is I mean, we could go into the nuances of brain science and all that stuff, like you're actually turning.
01;12;40;08 - 01;12;40;28
Murray Dueck
On primitive.
01;12;40;28 - 01;12;56;21
Joshua Hoffert
Circuits in your brain when you do that. And the father's designed you and wired you that way. So there's I know there's a number of people you talk to, you go. I try and it's just so dry. I don't know what his presence feels like. I've never been touched like that. And and I get that right. Like.
01;12;56;27 - 01;12;58;01
Murray Dueck
Like, for sure.
01;12;58;02 - 01;13;06;00
Joshua Hoffert
You know, I get it. That's a real struggle. I understand that. And the response isn't to get frustrated. The response is to cry out. Even the more is God.
01;13;06;05 - 01;13;07;03
Murray Dueck
That's right. And that's.
01;13;07;03 - 01;13;09;16
Murray Dueck
Their heart. Crying out more. That's your heart awakening.
01;13;09;16 - 01;13;10;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's.
01;13;10;01 - 01;13;11;01
Murray Dueck
Right. I want.
01;13;11;01 - 01;13;12;01
Murray Dueck
This. That's good.
01;13;12;01 - 01;13;13;14
Joshua Hoffert
Too. Yes, exactly.
01;13;13;18 - 01;13;18;22
Murray Dueck
Exactly And yeah, and, you know, everyone just to maybe bring it back.
01;13;18;25 - 01;13;19;20
Murray Dueck
Yes.
01;13;19;23 - 01;13;41;18
Murray Dueck
To to why this is in the manifesto, just to bring it back. Can You imagine if you're not practicing any form of taking control of your thoughts. You know, our weapons aren't carnal, but spiritual, full of pulling down and strongholds. We take every thought captive by that the peace of God guard your heart and your mind. What are you guarding from all this kind of thing?
01;13;41;20 - 01;13;55;06
Murray Dueck
Right? And you're not doing that, and yet you're running prophetic ministries and you're in your prophesying over people and you have no idea how to shut up your inner noise and tell the difference between you and the spirit of God.
01;13;55;10 - 01;13;56;25
Murray Dueck
You know.
01;13;56;28 - 01;13;59;05
Murray Dueck
It has to be in the manifest manifesto, but.
01;13;59;06 - 01;14;01;20
Joshua Hoffert
It has to be.
01;14;01;23 - 01;14;20;09
Murray Dueck
There needs to be a deeper place and it's, you know, we could just put right here in the manifesto in brackets Psalm 4610 be still and know that I am God and it needs to become it needs to become a lifestyle. And and for these very reasons that we've talked about.
01;14;20;11 - 01;14;48;25
Joshua Hoffert
Because what happens when it's not a lifestyle is that I look at in an election cycle and I go, well, God must not want the Democrats in. So I naturally assume he wants the you know, I'll go, God, man, is Trump right? Or I look at the news cycle, you know, Hamas and Israel. And so, you know, huge conflict, so nuanced, so devastating to people dying left, right and center.
01;14;48;28 - 01;14;54;27
Joshua Hoffert
And we get so divided because we think it's on this side or that side.
01;14;54;29 - 01;15;00;28
Murray Dueck
Or or let's talk about getting the COVID shot, which we're not going to do. Yeah, but but for me.
01;15;00;28 - 01;15;02;09
Joshua Hoffert
We're not going to talk about it. That's what.
01;15;02;12 - 01;15;04;23
Murray Dueck
Mean. We're not going to talk about it. But just, you know, you'll have enough.
01;15;04;25 - 01;15;10;08
Joshua Hoffert
You just made a political statement about it, right? You said, let's talk about the COVID shot, which we're not going to.
01;15;10;10 - 01;15;10;27
Murray Dueck
We're not going.
01;15;10;27 - 01;15;12;04
Murray Dueck
To. But yeah, you're right.
01;15;12;07 - 01;15;34;21
Murray Dueck
So but my point is, just because, as I see it, you'll have feelings and memories come back, Right? So so here's a point. Like for me right now, if I can't stay in stillness and rest, I will. I shouldn't be. I would like to say I don't, but that wouldn't be true. I that if I can't stay there, I can't read certain things.
01;15;34;24 - 01;15;48;16
Murray Dueck
But if I can stay and still look and feel the presence of God, feel the love of God in the midst, I can pursue it. But I know once it takes my peace because. Because peace, as John Paul Jackson used to say, peace is the potting soil of revelation.
01;15;48;16 - 01;15;49;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
01;15;49;24 - 01;16;17;14
Murray Dueck
And and and that peace was supposed to guard our hearts with peace. And again, that's inner stillness. Don't let this in, you know, And it's an it's an important thing. And, you know, and I'll give you an example. Unfortunately, in prophetic ministry back in like the, you know, area to the arts, they call it like 28 ish. You know, I know a major ministry that came out of British Columbia that was changing the world.
01;16;17;14 - 01;16;45;02
Murray Dueck
I mean, we we were in their offices for a while and they had 30,000 at that many. It was some crazy number of empty CD and DVD cases when when his ministry crashed. And it just because they were they were selling a million a month and and so what happened was kind of had a bit of a an affair or something happened really went off and got six months of prayer, ministry and healing.
01;16;45;04 - 01;17;03;21
Murray Dueck
But because he was gone, people could donate and people could listening numbers went down. He's got staff and a lot of staff had to pay for all of those people. He came back early before he was ready to, you know, about what he's feeling in his heart, what he's hearing in his mind, all these people demanding his time.
01;17;03;23 - 01;17;27;11
Murray Dueck
And he came back and, you know, well, it just got worse. The whole ministry blew up, got abandoned, and, you know, it was over. If he could have just stayed at stillness, if you could have just stayed there instead of all this. But, you know, that's that's part of the thing. What drives a ministry, what drives the money, what drives the book sales, what drives when that becomes the mark of your anointing?
01;17;27;11 - 01;17;35;15
Murray Dueck
I had this many hits on our website, as we've talked about previously, right? Instead of being known to stay in the presence of Christ.
01;17;35;22 - 01;17;36;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
01;17;36;23 - 01;18;03;16
Murray Dueck
Right. Again, why is it on the manifest manifesto right there? You know, we you know, we want to be people known for the presence and that's tough, tough to do because we want to we want to be known for what legacy am I leaving behind? You know, my fault. My spiritual daddy always says the answer to every question you have is the answer is always intimacy with Jesus.
01;18;03;18 - 01;18;05;02
Murray Dueck
What's your question?
01;18;05;04 - 01;18;07;14
Murray Dueck
You know. Yeah, that's right, David.
01;18;07;16 - 01;18;30;25
Murray Dueck
David. And he goes, You know what? Because I think sometimes we go, what if what kind of legacy am I going to leave behind? What's my legacy? What am I leaving behind? What is it? And always says, you know, if I could just be known as a friend of Jesus, that would be the best legacy. If I'm never know other than in heaven, that would be a wonderful legacy.
01;18;30;26 - 01;18;31;06
Murray Dueck
I like.
01;18;31;06 - 01;18;32;07
Joshua Hoffert
That.
01;18;32;10 - 01;18;37;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And and I think that gets us a good look into our the flotsam and jetsam a little. Yeah, right.
01;18;37;03 - 01;18;39;13
Murray Dueck
That's right. I still miss is important.
01;18;39;15 - 01;18;49;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right. I love that. And I thank you so much for sharing that. And I think with that will call this episode to a close and.
01;18;49;23 - 01;18;50;22
Murray Dueck
Yeah I think.
01;18;50;22 - 01;18;58;00
Murray Dueck
As far as why it's there, how to do it, why the fathers talk about it, where is it in Scripture. I think that ties it in and I think.
01;18;58;00 - 01;19;10;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I think we've covered it quite well and well. So we'll be back next week and we'll be moving on to the next few points in the manifesto, hesitancy to use the gift to build the platform.
01;19;10;28 - 01;19;13;09
Murray Dueck
And it's right there, which.
01;19;13;09 - 01;19;19;00
Joshua Hoffert
Really it really does. Yeah. So all of this dovetails in with each other Dish tackling.
01;19;19;02 - 01;19;20;14
Murray Dueck
Problem tackling yes.
01;19;20;14 - 01;19;26;11
Joshua Hoffert
The Shackleton prophecy from end times eschatology and then a healthier expression of the faithful ministry and.
01;19;26;11 - 01;19;27;13
Murray Dueck
And again everybody.
01;19;27;13 - 01;19;48;21
Murray Dueck
If you want to know like more about this whole thought thing again that book by Mark embodies I think is his name. He was a sociologist, professor, somewhere in the East Coast of the U.S.. Interview you interviewing Father Maximus, and the book was entitled Mountain of Silence. Yeah, definitely. If you want to go a little deeper, definitely. You should have that on your shelf.
01;19;48;25 - 01;19;49;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I'll see.
01;19;49;28 - 01;19;50;18
Murray Dueck
I went out.
01;19;50;19 - 01;19;51;13
Murray Dueck
I never get back.
01;19;51;14 - 01;20;08;19
Joshua Hoffert
I'll try and put a link to it on into Amazon. If you're in if you're in Canada, it'll be Amazon dot S.A. if you might, if you're in the States, you might have to look it up on dotcom, but at least put a link there that to the book so people can reference it. We like and we're like affiliates.
01;20;08;19 - 01;20;12;19
Joshua Hoffert
We don't get anything from it. That book just really was helpful for both.
01;20;12;19 - 01;20;15;02
Murray Dueck
Maureen I Yeah, yeah.
01;20;15;05 - 01;20;23;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So, so you can check that out. I think I said at the beginning of our show that this was our third episode, but I'm pretty sure it's actually our fourth one going.
01;20;23;15 - 01;20;24;09
Murray Dueck
Through really.
01;20;24;09 - 01;20;28;03
Joshua Hoffert
Manifest. Yeah, Yeah. And so for sure.
01;20;28;08 - 01;20;29;22
Murray Dueck
On the whole manifesto. Yes.
01;20;29;25 - 01;20;30;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
01;20;30;12 - 01;20;36;10
Joshua Hoffert
The fourth. Yeah, we're like episode 15 talking about prophecy though. So something like
01;20;36;12 - 01;20;38;08
Murray Dueck
Well you go back to the alma matter.
01;20;38;09 - 01;21;06;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah that's right. With something. Yeah. It's something we care about. So just, just so appreciative of your perspective mirror and love spending the time with you. And we hope that you, the listeners, have been enriched by the conversation and challenged given practical insights, things that you can apply and just just thoughts as we approach. What would it look like if prophetic ministry actually looked like prophetic ministry?
01;21;06;20 - 01;21;09;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, and that's the thought experiment here.
01;21;09;12 - 01;21;30;19
Murray Dueck
And, you know, and again, to put it in some context, just briefly everyone I really do recommend you go back to Wind Ministries, Josh his website and spend some time in his mothers and fathers, Abas and Oma's the stories of the desert fathers and you'll see these principles in their lives. The miracles, the dreams of visions, the charismatic stuff that we love so much.
01;21;30;19 - 01;21;54;05
Murray Dueck
Because, you know, but at the same time, you know, the, the, the you know, there's ortho praxis, right? Right. Doing an orthodoxy, right. Teaching you'll all see them how they're how they're thinking about it, how they're how they're they're practicing it, how their, their lifestyle dovetails. And it's really important. I mean, you know, a lot of times we talk theology, nobody remembers it.
01;21;54;05 - 01;22;10;28
Murray Dueck
What did they say? How am I going to tell my wife about this later? You know, go and read those stories on Joshua's website. It you'll see it all mixed in there and it might really help you. I'd really recommend that it's Josh did all this research out of these like a five volume set called their ever good Tino's.
01;22;11;00 - 01;22;13;16
Murray Dueck
You know well during the desert fathers I'm planning.
01;22;13;16 - 01;22;16;26
Joshua Hoffert
On compiling all that stuff into a into a book so.
01;22;16;28 - 01;22;18;03
Murray Dueck
It should be there.
01;22;18;05 - 01;22;37;08
Murray Dueck
And and you know it's well-written and nicely formatted and it's worth your time, everyone, to do that. And you'll go, that makes so much more sense. Now I hear it in somebody's life and reading their lives, so I just Hats off to Josh, such a brilliant work he did there and all and everyone. I recommend that to you.
01;22;37;09 - 01;22;42;14
Joshua Hoffert
All link to it. It's the it's the Desert Fathers dossier. We'll link you right to the all the.
01;22;42;19 - 01;22;43;04
Murray Dueck
Perfect.
01;22;43;04 - 01;22;49;09
Joshua Hoffert
The writing there. But the Desert Fathers dossier all link a link to it in the episode description too. So thanks so much for that. Murray.
01;22;49;18 - 01;22;51;25
Murray Dueck
it's.
01;22;51;27 - 01;22;53;29
Murray Dueck
I got Josh send me his other copy of the whole.
01;22;53;29 - 01;22;58;26
Murray Dueck
Set of the ever Catena's everybody, the whole set. I'm too nice. Get me down.
01;22;58;26 - 01;23;01;13
Murray Dueck
If I get free book too nice.
01;23;01;16 - 01;23;02;05
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
01;23;02;08 - 01;23;22;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So, everybody, thanks so much for tuning in and thanks. Thanks for your kind comments. Please leave us a review. Tell friends about the podcast, maybe share one of the episodes on social media. Let Murray and I know what's been impacting you and what kind of questions you might have. And we just love the we love the journey.
01;23;22;10 - 01;23;30;04
Joshua Hoffert
We love getting to know every one of you. We love the messages. And yeah, it's been awesome. So great time together yet again.
01;23;30;04 - 01;23;32;09
Murray Dueck
Murr Yeah, thanks.
01;23;32;09 - 01;23;34;22
Joshua Hoffert
Josh It's all next time, everybody.
01;23;34;24 - 01;23;37;05
Murray Dueck
Okay, let's you all hang out.