Today it is common to plan your ministry strategy around worldwide impact and a social media platform. But is it normal to think about building around a gift given by God? Join Josh and Murray as they dive into point 5 of the prophetic manifesto: a hesitancy to use the gift to build a platform.
The 7 Points of the Prophetic Manifesto:
- The reputation of Macarius the Great.
- The Desert Fathers (aka the prophets in the church) were sought for their great understanding of Scripture.
- The primary function of prophetic ministry is to reveal the nature of God/heart of Christ. A secondary/tertiary function is telling the future.
- An intense regards for humility, solitude, and silence (see the aforementioned Macarius)
- A hesitancy to use a gift to build a platform. Prophets/those in prophetic ministry ought to desire to be hidden rather than seen and to see the gift used in hidden ways.
- De-shackling the function of prophecy from end-times eschatology
- A healthier understanding of 5-fold ministry (admitting that we don't know what we are talking about). How has it been applied in ages past?
For more about Joshua Hoffert visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
For more about Murray Dueck visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
Eden's Way Farm Sanctuary: https://edenswayfarmsanctuary.ca/
Today it is common to plan your ministry strategy around worldwide impact and a social media platform. But is it normal to think about building around a gift given by God? Join Josh and Murray as they dive into point 5 of the prophetic manifesto: a hesitancy to use the gift to build a platform.
The 7 Points of the Prophetic Manifesto:
- The reputation of Macarius the Great.
- The Desert Fathers (aka the prophets in the church) were sought for their great understanding of Scripture.
- The primary function of prophetic ministry is to reveal the nature of God/heart of Christ. A secondary/tertiary function is telling the future.
- An intense regards for humility, solitude, and silence (see the aforementioned Macarius)
- A hesitancy to use a gift to build a platform. Prophets/those in prophetic ministry ought to desire to be hidden rather than seen and to see the gift used in hidden ways.
- De-shackling the function of prophecy from end-times eschatology
- A healthier understanding of 5-fold ministry (admitting that we don't know what we are talking about). How has it been applied in ages past?
For more about Joshua Hoffert visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
For more about Murray Dueck visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
Eden's Way Farm Sanctuary: https://edenswayfarmsanctuary.ca/
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;44;21
Unknown
When you waffle somebody's timeline, you will see that when they think their major ministries started coming out of school, just coming out or whatever, it's not. There is going to be a year and a half to three years of complete isolation and rejection. And then after that period of time of being alone with God, they're actually now you're like, What?
00;00;44;24 - 00;01;36;18
Unknown
Norman taught me that everybody. And welcome back to another episode of Voices from the Desert. Desert. Actually, when I'm editing the episodes, I call it v v f t d Voices from the Desert. So we're vectored. So unlike a disease, it's actually kind of does, doesn't it? Yes. So, everybody, we're back. I'm Joshua Offord. I'm here with my dear friend Murray Duke.
00;01;36;18 - 00;02;08;23
Unknown
We've been chatting for the last two and a half hours, continuing to forget to hit record. Yeah, not that we are actually recording, but that's the story of our lives, right? Is, is yes. Yeah. Our it's the story of our time together. So. Yeah, Yeah. So now here we are, we're, we're continuing on. We've been on this, this trajectory of rethinking and looking at the historical practice of prophecy.
00;02;08;25 - 00;02;48;28
Unknown
The, the way that the, the, the nature of spiritual gifts has been thought of. You know, one, one of the, I know one of the, the thought processes that go into the idea of a spiritual gift is and this comes from kind of the secessionist camp. So so what do you think about this? MURRAY The the idea is that God still heals today because most most people that were are in the camp that would or are of the persuasion that would deny the existence of spiritual gifts, would not deny the effective power of God to heal sovereignly.
00;02;49;01 - 00;03;10;06
Unknown
They wouldn't say that God doesn't heal. But what they would say is that God doesn't give a gift to heal to an individual, doesn't give a gift to prophesy to an individual. Yet that would make said so those gifts, they would say those gifts ceased with the apostles. Maybe they ceased with the canonization of Scripture. But those gifts in that way ceased.
00;03;10;06 - 00;03;33;17
Unknown
And they're no longer necessary today because we have the Holy Scriptures. And so why would we need a gift? That's kind of the idea, right? And I think people make that argument. Absolutely. There are people that make that argument. And and that's quite a quite one of the one of the the the leading arguments for the and the people that would adhere to secessionism, God would heal.
00;03;33;17 - 00;03;57;25
Unknown
But he doesn't necessarily give people a gift to heal and when. But one of the things that we're looking at when we look at the the context of early Christianity is that there were absolute past the apostles. There are absolutely men and women that were looked at as having a gift to heal. And there were men and women that were looked at as having a gift to prophesy.
00;03;57;25 - 00;04;14;21
Unknown
Paul The simple, who was a disciple of Anthony the Great, was said to have the gift, to look upon the face of a person and see the state of their heart. So, so, you know, that's that word, that very liberal, that doesn't that sound very simple. How did you get that name? How do you get the name Paul?
00;04;14;27 - 00;04;43;09
Unknown
Now you don't want to know. Paul The symbol was called Paul The symbol because he was in fact quite a simple man. So there's a there's although he can know everything in somebody's heart. Very interesting. It is true. So the flip side is that he's chastised by Anthony at one point because he in the context of a meeting with fathers, he asks quite a ridiculous question about what comes first, the prophets or the gospels.
00;04;43;11 - 00;05;06;22
Unknown
It's the simplest question. And Anthony actually gets frustrated with him, tells Paul to sit down and be quiet, and two weeks later Anthony is convicted and has to go back to Paul and apologize to him because Paul doesn't say anything after Anthony says that for two weeks, he's so obedient to the instruction of his spiritual father. Right. So Paul was simple in the sense that he was actually simple.
00;05;06;26 - 00;05;33;25
Unknown
All right. He didn't he didn't really understand the stuff. So he didn't know. Did the prophetic books come first or the Gospels come first? Right. And to which Anthony goes, you should know this already. Anyway. So so we look at you could look at someone like Paul, and that's the case. But we can look at even if we were looking at of course, earlier in our series Mysterious, who was said to have a revelatory, revelatory gift every time people got around him.
00;05;33;27 - 00;05;55;09
Unknown
He knew what we were going to say before we set it right, so that he's talked about having a gift in particular resident with him. And then we can look at people like Cassian, a major figure in the early church. In his interview with Nestorius, Nestorius talks about holy men having gifts within them owing to the holiness of their lifestyle.
00;05;55;11 - 00;06;17;04
Unknown
And so, you know, so anyway, so we're looking at this broader context for how the, the early church looked at spiritual gifts and then how that might inform what we practice today. Right. And so so for any of you that have been following along, that's great. We're going to continue following along. I'm going to punt it over to Mary in just a second.
00;06;17;11 - 00;06;40;08
Unknown
But for those of you that are newly tuning in, look back to some of the episodes that we've talked about already. We've been going over what we're affectionately termed our prophetic manifesto. And and so like I said, my name is Joshua Horford. I'm here with my friend Murray Duke. I run a ministry called Wend Ministries and Murray runs a ministry called Samuel's Mantle.
00;06;40;15 - 00;07;00;09
Unknown
And it's our it's really our deep passion that people would encounter the love of the father, be transformed into his image, find that place of rest in their heart, and then be used by him. And and so however, we can help facilitate that happening. This podcast is really one of the ways that we're trying to, you know, be us be a service to the body of Christ.
00;07;00;09 - 00;07;20;09
Unknown
And so we're continuing on with the prophetic manifesto today. What's up on the docket today, my dear friend Murray, I just have to say, every time I hear the word manifesto, I hear I hear soldiers marching in jackboots. But I it's yeah, it's it's such a I mean, it's such a good word. It's like this is what I stand for.
00;07;20;09 - 00;07;40;21
Unknown
What am I about? But it's so funny how it's been used. Yeah, it's true in our culture that we're. So you mock me every time because I was the one who used the term manifesto. I know. I laugh. I snicker every time I hear the word. I have this image in my mind of soldiers marching in jackboots. So I think you did you did refer to Mein Kampf one time when I did.
00;07;40;21 - 00;08;20;21
Unknown
I didn't say it on the manifesto. I didn't say it out loud, at least, but I did. I know that Josh has brought it into the light. I confess. I guess you do confess. That's right. That's good. Nice. And humble. Yeah. Thank you. So we had last last episode, we we kind of did a two parter talking about the, the basis for contemporary prophetic ministry, drawing inspiration from the the early church age would be that prophetic ministry would have a high value for humility, solitude and silence.
00;08;20;21 - 00;08;43;15
Unknown
Why don't I just read the the point of the manifesto again? Good idea. I think that's a good idea. And then I'll turn it over to George again that the first the first point of the manifesto in review is the that prophetic ministry would be known to have the reputation of vicarious. We broke that down in the first episode of the Desert Fathers.
00;08;43;21 - 00;09;07;12
Unknown
The prophets of the early church age were sort in the desert for their defense, in their robust interpretation of scripture, their understanding of Trinitarian theology. The primary function for prophetic ministry is to reveal the nature of God in the heart of Christ, not to tell the future. That would be a tertiary function. And then we'd have an intense regard for humility, solitude and silence, which I said.
00;09;07;14 - 00;09;35;10
Unknown
And then that there'd be a has an idea for use a gift to build a platform rather desire to see the gift used in hidden ways, and then shackling the function of prophecy for many times eschatology, and then a healthier understanding of five full ministries. So where are we at today, Mert? And what are your thoughts? Yeah, I mean, today we're picking up, you know, not building, using the gift to build a personal ministry and maybe read it word for word one more time, because that's where we're at.
00;09;35;10 - 00;09;53;01
Unknown
We'll just take it, you know, as its own sermon acceptance. There may be a hesitancy to use a gift to build a platform We're going to regret regardless whether it's a prophetic gift or not. That's right. Hesitancy to use a gift to build a platform, rather a desire to see the gift used in hidden ways. Now we're applying it to prophecy, of course.
00;09;53;04 - 00;10;26;03
Unknown
So hesitancy to use a gift to build a platform, a desire to see the gift used in hidden ways. And, you know, you know, if you think back to, you know, I think sometimes people, they don't remember theology, but people do tend to remember story. Yeah and and good rabbinical teaching style and I would suggest to everybody that ago, you know, the best answer you're going to get for this is to go back and listen to, to, to, to, you know, my, you know, my or Josh's first two episodes of how we ended up here.
00;10;26;08 - 00;10;48;24
Unknown
Yeah. And and I think that we'll say, how did you guys come to this particular conclusion And you'll find it there. I mean, I you know, I basically heard God speak to me audibly after trying to build this really big ministry. And what he said was, I've beaten you. I mean, it took me about another five years to figure out what that meant, you know?
00;10;48;26 - 00;11;18;15
Unknown
What do you mean? Like I'm. Aren't I doing this for you? You know, look at the people that are going to get saved and, you know, those kinds of things. And yeah, yeah. It's interesting how the Lord looks in the heart and the motives and and we don't always look there, you know, And I and this is kind of very, very important that there's a great book, again, a modern book, but I think it's worth looking at called The Making of a Leader by Dr. Roger Clinton.
00;11;18;17 - 00;11;42;23
Unknown
And you know, if you want some modern application here, so use a Fuller Seminary professor. I think he's passed away now. And this book was about the process of of developing leadership. And he you know, he goes through about a thousand different well known Christian leaders all the way back from biblical times to modern times. You know, watchmen knees in there.
00;11;42;23 - 00;12;13;17
Unknown
I mean, lots of people and for modern, you know, And he says that when you follow somebody's timeline, you you'll see that when they think their major ministries starting, they're coming out of school, they're coming out of whatever. It's not. There is going to be a year and a half to three years of complete isolation and rejection. And then after that period of time, of being alone with God, their actual ministry begins and you're like, What?
00;12;13;19 - 00;12;36;14
Unknown
No one taught me that. Well, let's just think biblically here for a second, because we're going to go to the desert fathers here in a minute and just go, Well, has a church. What does the church believe? How does the church model this? But Joseph dream of his brothers bowing down, sold into slavery 13 years. Right. Right. Moses Act seven says he was an eloquent speaker and a gifted leader, by the way.
00;12;36;16 - 00;12;56;26
Unknown
And that you know, this is Stephen talking in Act seven that Moses when he killed that guy, he thought his people would realize that God was using him to free them. And of course, desert for 40 years. David prophesied over that he'd be the next king, you know, chased around in caves for three and a half years. I mean, on and on we go, right, right.
00;12;56;27 - 00;13;27;18
Unknown
And and, you know, every one of them was there had to be a looking inside the heart for the word of God is sharper than any double edged sword. He cut for joint joints and marrow, soul and spirit, discerning the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. If there is no rest, as Hebrews three and four talks about, that needs to be exposed and those things of the heart that have grown into fear or worry or pride or identity, they need to be dealt with before the resting of the presence of God on someone for major work.
00;13;27;24 - 00;13;46;14
Unknown
Yeah. And and so I'm just going to read a little bit out of Mona's and just we been look talking about him for a couple of weeks and this book was written by a guy named Dervis Chiti who, by the way, I'm going to get a goat and his name is going to be. Dervis. I just sorry. DERVIS Perfect.
00;13;46;16 - 00;14;19;19
Unknown
And maybe you should have. It's one name. DERVIS And one named Chitti commenting where you should, if you seen the expression on my face, I was about a thousand thoughts that went through his mind about how that word Chitti might come out. A big shovel, as you say, right there. But my mind was pure in that one. Okay, Well, you know, I write a letter.
00;14;19;21 - 00;14;43;14
Unknown
I own many, many shovels that obviously will be following Dervis around. So so from letter 12, the one we quoted a while ago, I just thought I'd throw this out. Letter 12. This is Dervis G. Talking about a bonus from letter 12. It becomes evident that the effectiveness of their prayer for others lies above all in their having overcome their self-will, which is, you know, we're talking about Moses in the desert.
00;14;43;14 - 00;15;05;25
Unknown
We're talking, you know, when Joseph, his brothers, come to see him, he says, You know, God sent me ahead of you. God sent me 13 years in prison, right, in slavery. And Psalm 105 says about Joseph, and he and he and and he and he sent a man ahead of them. Joseph is I'm doing this off the top of my head.
00;15;05;25 - 00;15;23;17
Unknown
You won't get it quite right. His feet were put in bars of bronze and his hands in shackles of iron until the word of the Lord proved him true meaning of the dream. He got it. But his brother's bowing down and proved true. There is like you take a sword, you bang heat it, you put it in the fire, and then finally put it in the cold water and it hardens.
00;15;23;17 - 00;15;48;12
Unknown
It's proof. True. Then you can translate. The word prove is purged. Ah, there you go. Where the Lord purged him. And then? And then Favre comes and he becomes the trainer of Pharaoh's. You know, it's. But there's a process. And and so when we're talking from, you know, Dervis is talking about the desert fathers who we're going to look at some of these guys again today.
00;15;48;12 - 00;16;13;25
Unknown
It becomes evident that the effectiveness of their prayer for others lies above all in their having overcome their own self. Will the person of prayer, who, at all outward appearances, has withdrawn from the world, in fact grows increasingly involved in it and comes to play a central, if often hidden role in society. So in other words, there is a real effectiveness, but but not in building their own ministries.
00;16;13;25 - 00;16;32;09
Unknown
And often you'll you know, we'll talk about a few of these guys here. But but like our seniors who I'll let you I'll kick that back over to Josh but the Lord says to, you know, how can I be saved and alerted, flee into the desert. Like what? So why in the world would you do that? I mean, you're you're Christian.
00;16;32;09 - 00;16;55;13
Unknown
You should be helping people. You should be serving people. You should be doing stuff. Why in the world are you running away to hide in the desert? How could that be the voice of God? That's got to be the devil, right? So but they're having to work on personal self-will first. So Saint Seraphim of Seraph would say, work on yourself first.
00;16;55;15 - 00;17;19;10
Unknown
I'm throwing the word first in there in brackets, and thousands will be saved. Yeah, that's right. You know, so over there, I'll kick that over to you and. And you can break down that Joseph passage because you've done some good work on that. Well, you know I actually, I want to read or, or there's a, there's a short little quote that was kind of a saying in to the early desert monastics, you know, the fathers and mothers.
00;17;19;13 - 00;17;40;22
Unknown
And I don't know if you've heard this one. It's a really short one. You know, it's seven words and I think you're really going to like it, though, more So this was kind of a constant refrain that they would remind themselves that it's not attributed to any one person in particular. Okay. And the saying was this, give your blood and receive the spirit.
00;17;41;11 - 00;18;04;12
Unknown
no, I've not heard that. That's that was a that was one of the, you know, a slogan, I guess, if you will, of the desert life. Give your blood and receive the spirit and which means struggle until you die, right? Yeah. And receive the spirit essentially is what it's saying. And and that's what we see in the desert life.
00;18;04;12 - 00;18;36;26
Unknown
And that's why, you know, following from our last point was an intense regard for humility, solitude and silence, because humility when humility, silence and solitude are worked within you, they don't leave you. And that's part of the point of a monastery. Actually. In letter 12, one of Mona's is talking a Mona's talks about how someone who has come to love silence before the father is very hesitant to leave that place unless they're sent specifically by God.
00;18;36;28 - 00;18;55;20
Unknown
Yeah. And and this is what we say once these things are worked within, you know, the outworking that we see is that you don't want to use your gift to build a platform. Actually, there's a hesitancy to even be moved in that way or to use your to be used in that way. So I do I really want to go here.
00;18;55;20 - 00;19;22;05
Unknown
I'd rather just be in silence. Right. Give your blood and receive the spirit. So our Stanislas was a a Christian serving in the Emperor's court. He was a man of the rank of a senator, which is pretty high up when it comes to the Roman court. Yeah, And and he's praying one day, and like Marie alluded to, actually, he was a tutor to the sons of Theodosius, the first.
00;19;22;05 - 00;19;52;07
Unknown
So this is like, he's an important dude. You know, this guy is he's got some clout to him is is tutoring the sons of the emperor of the emperor. Yes. Yes. So well-educated man. And it says that, well, he was living in the palace are seniors. This is in the songs of the desert Father, the sayings of the Desert Fathers, the collection there that our seniors praise Lord, lead me in the way of salvation.
00;19;52;09 - 00;20;17;25
Unknown
And he hears a voice speak to him and says, Our seniors, our seniors flee from men and you will be saved. Go to the desert and you will be saved. And this kind of thing is a constant refrain in especially in the kind of the short anecdotal sayings of the desert fathers in the desert. Yeah, yeah. Because we see something similar in the in the story of Mary the Harlot.
00;20;17;27 - 00;20;51;00
Unknown
Mary, Mary the Harlot was a a you know, there's a couple different renditions of the story, but as the story goes, a desert father named Abu Zosimus goes into the desert, sees a kind of an ethereal figure when he describes her, and he stumbles across Mary, who's been in the desert for something like 30 years. Yeah. Yeah. And and she tells her or she tells Zosimus her back story, you know, her her Marvel character, MCU origins.
00;20;51;04 - 00;21;15;08
Unknown
Ha ha ha. Yeah. And it's that she was full of wanton lust. You know, she's trying to seduce all these men on this. On Pilgrim pilgrimages, and she ends up in the city, tries to walk into a walk into the church, and she's repelled by an invisible force. She's actually she can't get in and fights and fights, and she's hit with conviction.
00;21;15;10 - 00;21;36;20
Unknown
She she humbles herself and repents, has a divine encounter, and then she hears the words and then she can get into the church. Then she can get into the church that you can walk right in and. my goodness, exactly. And then she gives her life to the Lord. And here's the phrase I say is, Flee across the Jordan and you will find rest.
00;21;36;20 - 00;21;55;00
Unknown
And which would be flee to the desert. You'll find rest and that doesn't mean that when she fled, she immediately found, as she describes, an 18 year struggle with her own heart before she finds that place of all that stuff of of wanton lust and all that stuff, she locked into that prostitute. She rescued it for 17 years.
00;21;55;00 - 00;22;19;02
Unknown
17 years? Exactly. And you know what is interesting? She talks. She she keeps quoting scripture when she's talking with Zosimus. Right. And she doesn't have a Bible. She doesn't have a Bible. And it says this. This is I'm just reading from the story. When Zosimus heard how she drew her witnesses from the scripture, from the books of Moses and Joab with the Psalms, you said to her, Have you learned the Psalms then Mother, and read the other books of Holy Scripture?
00;22;19;04 - 00;22;40;03
Unknown
When she heard this, she smiled and said to him, Believe me, I've seen no one since I crossed over the Jordan until I saw you today. Not even an animal or any kind of creature since I've come into this desert, never in any way did I learn letters, nor have I ever heard anyone reading or singing them. But the Word of God, living and active teaches itself, itself teaches man knowledge.
00;22;40;06 - 00;23;07;03
Unknown
That is enough about me. So. So, Mary, just like our seniors, right? Different context. But both of them hear these words Go to the desert and you'll be saved. And and it reminds me actually of Psalm 139, one of the very last verses in Psalm 139, not about fleeing to the desert, but David says to his he's praying this deep, heartfelt prayer to the father.
00;23;07;03 - 00;23;34;23
Unknown
Right. And he says, search me and reveal any way of pain within me and lead me in the life everlasting. And and so this is all of this work is see, I think sometimes we get this this kind of idea. So one there's one stage of and I want you to tell maybe the one of those dreams we were talking about.
00;23;34;26 - 00;23;52;05
Unknown
No. Yeah, yeah, right. Because we, we get this idea where on one set, on one level, it's like I'm going to be a successful person. You know, maybe we see the way someone has used God on a in a public way before, and we're like, I'm going to do the same thing, You know? It's awesome. I want to be like that.
00;23;52;05 - 00;24;11;14
Unknown
I'm going to be up there. I'm going to preach and teach and prophesy and heal the sick and all that, and God's going to use me. Have an amazing, amazing ministry and impact so many people, right? Yeah. And so there's this there's one level where we get all gung ho about being used by God, right? And then and then without ever dealing with the things of the heart.
00;24;11;14 - 00;24;40;11
Unknown
And then there's another level where we go, okay, I'm going to do the David prayer because now I'm starting to realize, well, maybe there's some preparatory work involved here, Right? But but I'm going to do the David prayer right. Search me in and reveal any way of pain within me. And then lead me in the way everlasting so that I can get to the point where now I'm influencing and leading people and have a public ministry and have this great national acclaim.
00;24;40;11 - 00;25;09;27
Unknown
I can prophesy and lead people and heal people, right? Yeah. So it's so it's like it becomes one stop along the way. And what we're trying to say is that when we look at historic Christianity and the practice of how the idea of spiritual gifts was practiced is actually there wasn't a willingness to use it, there was a hesitancy to use it, not a willingness to build a platform or to influence, but a hesitancy too.
00;25;09;27 - 00;25;37;04
Unknown
And in fact, we look at one of our favorites, Basil, the Great Basil, the great trained as one of the best up and coming philosophers of the day. He was going to be a leading key, you know, public speaker, a rhetoric Titian, Greek orator. He was turned in all the all the philosophical schools and he comes out of his training and his sister recognizes his pride and says, you need to go to the desert and deal with yourself.
00;25;37;06 - 00;26;02;15
Unknown
And and Basil, sensing within himself is essentially says something like this, sensing within himself the tendency towards hidden pride. He removed himself from the public life and went actually, he went onto a mountain in modern day turkey and lived a life of silence and solitude for years before anybody came around him. And so he had he had the best education, He had all the opportunities.
00;26;02;22 - 00;26;21;17
Unknown
You had all the invitations to be a wildly influential theologian in the day. And he goes, I'm going to run from all of it, because I can tell that it's just going to make me prideful. And then he has he doesn't try and reenter or reengage the public sphere. It's all like he goes, okay, now I've worked. Now humility is part of me.
00;26;21;17 - 00;26;47;02
Unknown
Now I can go be public again. That's right. Right. And I think that's where we get this. This is where the value for the hesitancy to use the gift is. What we're talking about is once God has worked within you and a a love for silence before him, I actually don't want to be used in the same way anymore.
00;26;47;04 - 00;27;20;28
Unknown
And I'm very comfortable being hidden. Whether he ever brings me out of that, hidden this or leaves me in that, hidden this. I know I'm seen by him and that's all that matters. And so there's that's the principle we're talking about. The hesitancy to use the gift to build the platform and word. And and essentially what happens is you become very comfortable giving someone a prophetic word on a Sunday morning anonymously or just, you know, calling up a friend and saying, hey, I felt like the Lord said this, this or I had a dream or whatever.
00;27;20;28 - 00;27;48;00
Unknown
Right. But it's like it's like those become those become the moments of great glory is when God uses you to touch the heart of one individual, not when God uses you on a platform to show everybody how gifted you are. Right? Tough enough to learn that man. I still I if it is. Well, you know, I realized it was a few years ago that I'm you know, you get this thing right where you're where you're you're involved in prophetic ministry somewhere.
00;27;48;00 - 00;28;04;10
Unknown
And you do the public ministry thing. You're pointing people out, Right? We did this at our school years ago, a couple of years ago together. And people come up to you afterwards and they tell you all that was so good. Thank you so much for that word. It was so accurate. It means this and this and this to me.
00;28;04;12 - 00;28;21;00
Unknown
Like, I'm sure you get that and just and Murray shaking his head. Yes. And I and people do that with me. If I'm if we feel like the Lord is steering us in that way and I'm I, like want to run at this point when someone comes up to me to tell me that afterwards, I don't want to know.
00;28;21;02 - 00;28;40;05
Unknown
I actually don't I would rather not know because I and I'm realizing I'm so much more comfortable being hidden than being seen by them. I don't I don't need to be seen by them. I don't want to be seen by them. I don't want the accolade. I don't want the affirmation. When I was younger, it used to be like, that's so wonderful.
00;28;40;05 - 00;29;11;03
Unknown
Thanks so much. Goodbye. That it's awesome. But I realized the Lord really had to strike a death blow to an addiction to the buzz of the prophetic gift in me. Right. There's one there's one element of addiction to the fame or the acclaim or the, you know, the the recognition, right? Like, like I think on some level, that's one of the things that drives most of humanity is that we want to be known and seen and celebrated.
00;29;11;10 - 00;29;33;05
Unknown
And we and we use our prophetic gift to do that. And the Lord out to deal a death blow in me to that. But there's another one, which is when you get addicted, like you said to the buzz, it's like I get addicted to the opening hit. You know, you get it exactly. I get a dopamine hit when prophecy happened and the Lord had to kill that addiction in me.
00;29;33;05 - 00;29;52;24
Unknown
Actually, that scared me more than the addiction for to pride or anything like that was prophesying because I liked how it made me feel. Or the other thing that comes with it too. It's like I'm hearing I'm hearing well, for other people, I'm banging them over the fence today. I must be really close to God and I must be real.
00;29;53;07 - 00;30;23;00
Unknown
yeah, right, right. And neither of those things are true. So if you're using your gift as your mirror. Wow, Look at me. That must be. I'm just meeting God's image here. I'm finally developing, developing, looking like Jesus so everybody can see it. Yes. And. And yeah, you know, everybody. You know, if you don't know this is, you know, Bill Johnson would say it's a good quote, God's on you for others in you, for you.
00;30;23;03 - 00;30;50;20
Unknown
And and I think that's true. It's and we think if somebody has a gift, that must mean they're close to God. I mean, I think we've read the news enough now over the last 15, 20 years already going back to Jimmy Swaggart and all these guys. Right. And Jimmy Swaggart, you know, his big fall, he his big statement was you all ask me, why didn't Jimmy Swaggart get good prayer?
00;30;50;23 - 00;31;10;23
Unknown
And his response was, well, who could pray for Jimmy Swaggart? Meaning I'm still high on the talk. I couldn't go up to anybody else because there wasn't anybody I mean, my goodness. You know, and and, you know, you read the story of a Alan, who's one of these big 1950s revival guys, you know, crazy miracles following that guy around.
00;31;10;26 - 00;31;34;26
Unknown
And so the story goes, here's Alan outside in the parking lot. I think, and there's this demonized guy trying to get him. And there are six guys holding this demonized guy down and Alan just leaning on this car and he throws off all six of these guys charges. Alan almost has his hands around his throat and Alan goes, come out in Jesus name, and the guy's delivered, right?
00;31;35;01 - 00;31;50;06
Unknown
And the guy, the six guys pulling themselves off the ground, go, Why didn't you do that sooner? And he goes, Well, I had a vision of this very thing last night, but in the vision the car was orange. And in real life it's black. And I was wondering why that was. When the sun began to set the light glinted off the car.
00;31;50;10 - 00;32;09;20
Unknown
It turned orange and I knew I had the anointing. An amazing story. But what you don't realize is a Alan ends his ministry going to preach with a prostitute on each arm, drunk out of his mind, and they would try to prevent him from getting on stage and he would slur the words. When the anointing comes, it'll all be fine and get on stage.
00;32;09;25 - 00;32;30;01
Unknown
The anointing would come. He'd heal the sick cast of the demons leave with the prostitutes, right? Because the calling, the calling is, you know, the rainfalls and the just unjust or the, you know, you know, let the weeds and tear grow together or, you know, the gifts and calling of God or without repentance. And so we think if we're moving and a gift, therefore I must be holy.
00;32;30;04 - 00;32;47;21
Unknown
No God is on you for others, in you, for you and and and the desert fathers understood that. And they talk a lot about Don't go out and Minister, before you've dealt with your inner battle, you have to deal with the flesh first. And. Okay, so let's just look at that. Maybe I'm going to read you a dream.
00;32;47;21 - 00;33;05;21
Unknown
But but you know, theologically, where do we see that? Well, if you if you read Paul and I'm going to read this dream to you, this this will give it some good context about the story I just shared about why flee to the desert, about. But let's look at Paul. So here's Paul and we're going to talk about his.
00;33;05;24 - 00;33;24;24
Unknown
It's better to be weak than to be strong and his thorn in the flesh. That's where we're going. But but let's just read him in Philippians three for a second. Let's see here. What is more, I considered everything a loss compared to the surpassing great knowledge of and look for the word knowing Christ how many times that occurs here.
00;33;25;13 - 00;33;46;29
Unknown
Maybe I can get Josh to count it. Whatever. So he talks about being if anyone thinks he has reasons for confidence in the flesh, I've more circumcised. The eight day tribe of Benjamin Hebrew of Hebrews, a Pharisee zealous, persecuting the church, righteous, faultless. But whatever was to my prophet, I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.
00;33;47;02 - 00;34;08;07
Unknown
What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ. Jesus, my Lord, for whose sake I've lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.
00;34;08;13 - 00;34;28;19
Unknown
I want to know Christ in the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, which would be no Christ. Again, if we want to becoming like him in death, and somehow to attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I've already obtained it. All this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold that that which Christ has taken hold of me.
00;34;28;22 - 00;34;49;00
Unknown
Brothers, I do not consider yet taken hold of it. But one thing I do, forgetting what is behind eyestrain for what is ahead. I press on towards the goal to win the prize for which Christ is called me. So I think the new King James as to the higher calling. Okay. Now the reason I read that is I've always been taught higher calling.
00;34;49;00 - 00;35;14;14
Unknown
They're pressing on to the prize. The higher calling is my vision. What am I doing for God? Right? What is that? But if you read the passage, you know, he never talks about his vision or his calling. Once he about knowing Christ four or five times, that's the higher calling to you, direct references to knowing Christ. And then for at least three or four extra references to the knowledge of Christ.
00;35;14;17 - 00;35;34;02
Unknown
Yeah. Fellowship, right? Yeah. Like if you look at it in context, that's what he's talking about. Yeah, that's what he's pressing on, not his vision. So now just keep that in mind and let's, let's just look at Paul and draw. You might, could grab a couple of verses, but I just wanted like, how do we read this as charismatic evangelicals?
00;35;34;05 - 00;35;55;20
Unknown
So, I mean, Father Mike, I remember there's a great letter. Maybe you can post it. It's not online anymore called contracting Your vision. And he and he talks about how this young man in Bible camp has has been told next week everyone needs to come and tell about the great deeds they're going to do for Christ. Right. And he's like, well, what should I say?
00;35;55;22 - 00;36;17;24
Unknown
You? Well, tell them you're trying to work on inner peace. Which which of course, that's what the desert fathers are saying. But it sounds so lame. It sounds a limp wristed. Yeah, that's right. I'm going to save hundreds. I'm working on inner peace. It's like, but okay, so think about that. Here's Paul turning the known world upside down is a Tom Holland.
00;36;17;24 - 00;36;41;12
Unknown
He's an actor, but there's a historian named Holland and him and he's talking. He's Tom Holland as well. And he said it wasn't the Romans that brought us democracy. It was it was the apostle Paul. I mean, here Julius Caesar kills a million, Gauls, enslaves another million, and he gets old when people are holding signs, kill more. You know, it's it's it's Paul's letters, you know, And he's like, this is what brought democracy.
00;36;41;20 - 00;37;07;28
Unknown
You think about that. So here's this guy touching objects. Objects touch people, they get healed, turn in the world upside down. If he was alive today, he'd have a website, he'd have books published, he'd have film crews follow him around. And what does the Lord do? He gives them a thorn in the flesh. Paul. And Paul says, Because of my great pride, I was given this thorn in the flesh that I ask the Lord to take away.
00;37;08;00 - 00;37;31;04
Unknown
Right. Because. Because why His inner reality? Because I press on to the higher goal so I don't miss it. I could miss it myself. I could save other people and be excluded. How does he know he has to do the inner work himself up and against his own ministry? Even if you should work and more you should save and more people you should be.
00;37;31;04 - 00;37;50;08
Unknown
Egos know your inner world counts and for Paul's sake, he wasn't paying enough attention to it. So he had to be given this thorn in the flesh. And then he makes a statement for it is in weakness. Strength is perfected, right? So I mean, so I'm going to read this dream in this context, and then I'm going to kick it over to Josh.
00;37;50;11 - 00;38;15;25
Unknown
But so here's a dream. So, so inner world and I'm going to read the Dragon Dream. I'm going to read that particular dream. But you know, the Lord gives me dreams about this, you know, having to work on my own issues. A lot. Lord have mercy. As Saint Sarah from a seraph would say, Work on yourself and thousands will be saved.
00;38;15;28 - 00;38;42;12
Unknown
So, you know, it was not like we're not wanting that. We just, well, let's do it in that order then. Even the Apostle Paul there is saying so. So in the one dream I'm with this nationally known, internationally known healing anointing guy, the anointing and he's got a group of about 30 people with him and you know, the power gods come in and money's coming in and there's thousands and thousands of people in the stadium and I'm following them around and I'm watching his 30 guys.
00;38;42;12 - 00;39;00;13
Unknown
He's, he's mentoring them. And at the end of the dream, I could zoom up and listen to what's going on in their heads. And his main guy's like, Someday I'm taking over. I'm going to take over this ministry. It's going to be me. And then it zooms in to the next guy. I finally found a place to be.
00;39;00;13 - 00;39;17;16
Unknown
No, I fit and it zooms into the next guy. You know what? I'm not alone anymore. And then it zooms in to the next guy. You know what? I can. I can start something on my own out of this. I just need to be here for a little while. And every single one it was talking about their heart.
00;39;17;16 - 00;39;48;26
Unknown
Right. And I think I will read this other dream. I think I'll go for it. Why not? Yeah. Okay. So. So in this regard, building this idea because sometimes story consider this a parable helps get ideas apart. Let me just say that. Go ahead. Yeah, just just very briefly. What what dream illustrates is exactly what we're talking about when it comes to when it comes to the prayer of David in Psalm 139, reveal if there's any way of pain within me, I see a way of pain manifests in wanting more.
00;39;49;01 - 00;40;16;16
Unknown
It's going I need to cover the thing within me that hurts. And so I use fame to do that recognition, to do that acceptance, to do that, approval to do that. And so and then we have these hidden motivations, which Psalm 68 talks about how the hit the hidden schemes of the heart that David refers to. And they the the the deep heart of man devises iniquities and plots schemes is what David said is right.
00;40;16;19 - 00;40;42;06
Unknown
And so that that part being exposed because once that part is exposed and I can see it and hold it. Okay, now formation can begin. And this is where we start to develop this rich appreciation for hidden ness. And and we're hesitant to actually be used on the platform because we know our own sinful tendency, our own proclivity to that, and that I could easily go there.
00;40;42;13 - 00;41;08;28
Unknown
So I just wanted to give give that context what it's illustrating, though. Rupert And it's not. And by the way, the point of the dream was not to convict Murray that other people are have these motivations. It's because it was about me. One of the words for vision is directly related to the word for Mirror. Did you know that Murray, that no vision, no vision has the tendency to reflect yourself back to you?
00;41;09;08 - 00;41;36;07
Unknown
yeah. And you know, so so that's what we're looking at there, is that okay. This is letting me know to be very conscientious about myself. So anyway, go ahead, Murray. I read the Dream Dragon. Dream or Dragon? The Dragon and Jesus. So. So I maybe I'll change a couple of names in here just for. So I had this project, the Innocent, the Stones, the Dragon, and had this dream.
00;41;36;07 - 00;42;00;16
Unknown
We were hanging out with Jesus. Today, in 2023, I was one of the disciples. So is my friend Bob. He was too, and I knew the others as well. Jesus had chosen us just like the TV show. Just like the TV show. And we were waiting for big things to happen. So we're just like the show chosen. We had been, you know, cameras, them showing us around.
00;42;00;18 - 00;42;24;16
Unknown
So, ah, I should have capitalized. We were chosen there and we're waiting for big things to happen. His popularity continued to increase. More and more TV stations were picking up what was what he was doing. The crowds were getting bigger. It felt like being a part of something very big that was going somewhere. Jesus was pretty enigmatic, though you could never quite know what he was going to do or say to keep to keep building the audience.
00;42;24;16 - 00;42;41;16
Unknown
It was quite frustrating as he almost didn't seem to have the people skills to pull it off. He was missing some tact or something and it was almost as if he needed people to help him get get the word out. He just didn't have enough tact. But the miracles were always happening, and so you could at least put up with that.
00;42;41;18 - 00;42;58;18
Unknown
He was always offending people and saying stupid things. And you began to wonder if in the dream, if he was autistic, like, do you not have the people? Do you not understand you're offending all these people? Aren't we building something? Quit everybody. You're ruining your own ministry. You know, that's kind of what we're thinking. The big outreach was just about to happen.
00;42;58;25 - 00;43;22;09
Unknown
All his miracles were about to be put on display on national television. But Jesus had become more enigmatic and even rude also as as we disciples had become more famous, being interviewed on The View and talk shows to get the word out, he seemed more strange, talking in riddles, disappearing, not spending time with us or explaining things. I personally felt very left out and lost.
00;43;22;12 - 00;43;40;12
Unknown
Jesus hadn't talked to me personally for weeks and when he was around he was always answering everyone else's questions and giving him tasks, but not me. I felt like the second string goalie who was always sitting on the bench watching everyone else play. I wasn't the only one feeling like this. My friend Bob had gotten angry and disappeared.
00;43;40;15 - 00;44;02;00
Unknown
Another disciple decided to challenge Jesus on live television. This disciple had really hit it off with the news media and become their voice. I remembering, watching, watching Jesus walk out of a building and this, this and the disciples were standing there with the news crews ready to challenge Jesus to his face. Jesus was not doing what everyone expected, and it was messing up primetime and all the TV ratings.
00;44;02;02 - 00;44;24;13
Unknown
People had committed to following him. And now they were turning the channel and the TV channels that had committed to him were very angry about it all. Like Jesus had done this to them on purpose. In the midst of all of this, it felt like we had we had had in the midst of all of this, it felt like we had all held it together just long enough to get to the final airing of the one big show.
00;44;24;16 - 00;44;48;09
Unknown
It was going to be held in a giant Costco building. Big, big, big store. We all walked in with Jesus and the building was empty. Just a white tiled floor, not even a shelf. Jesus said, Well, this isn't going to happen. And walked out. No meeting, no TV cameras, no people, no miracles. People were done angry, I think enough to kill them here.
00;44;48;09 - 00;45;09;18
Unknown
We thought Jesus had come to do something special for mankind, but it turned out he was just always offending us, abandoning us, ignoring us. We were done with it. We had left everything to follow Jesus for this. A few of us who were left had no idea where Jesus had gone or if he was coming back. It felt like we were all national embarrassment on public TV.
00;45;09;20 - 00;45;30;17
Unknown
We were tired, abandoned, disheartened. It felt like we were beaten all black and blue by our expectations. What people thought of us. Jesus continually changing his mind and then disappear thing. And what this all meant for our personal lives and our families. As a few of us remaining were sitting around the table talking, it was as if we hadn't slept for days in brackets.
00;45;30;19 - 00;45;53;01
Unknown
One of us began to read out of the Bible, and I think it was a text Jesus had given us personally, like a little note he'd left behind. As this person began to read, we began to understand from the Scripture about dragon eggs. So symbol, a little clarifying thought in brackets. The egg was actually gemstones of great value as this person read, we began to see everything that had just happened with Jesus in a new light.
00;45;53;04 - 00;46;14;28
Unknown
According to this text, we mankind were incredibly broken. In fact, we had taken on many aspects of the dragon, and at this moment my fingernails even looked like little bit like the little talents in the dream. I looked down and went, it's true, I've got talons. But it was like, Yes, Louis, that's. But it was. I just thought about that Voyage of the Dawn Treader, right?
00;46;15;00 - 00;46;34;17
Unknown
It was like all of us, without knowing it recovered in Dragon scales, but inside each of us were hidden all of these precious jewels. But the only way to discover the precious jewels was first to see that we were covered in dragon scales. Then the hate, the dragon scales, and want to be rid of them. And then you could get at the treasure that was really buried deep inside of each of us.
00;46;34;19 - 00;46;58;04
Unknown
The only way was the only way to do that. All of this was to hate the praise of people, to forget about your own personal needs and futures, and to quit comparing ourselves to one another and choose to love anyway and believe we are loved by God. Once a person can do all of this, a little pouch would open up inside our arms and the dragon scales would fall away and these jewels would just fall out and everyone would see them.
00;46;58;04 - 00;47;19;09
Unknown
At that point, they were hidden inside of us the whole time. And suddenly all of Jesus's enigmatic actions, slight direction, pretend meetings, all made sense. He was trying to offend the mind, to reveal the heart. He was trying to get us to see the dragon scales we were covered in trying to get us to see all the self capital E.L.F.
00;47;19;09 - 00;47;44;00
Unknown
We lived in the begin to hate it, but then to find the jewels the kingdom hidden inside of ourselves that was only revealed losing our lives to find it my weakness instead of strength. Right as we were sitting around the table beginning to understand these things, the Holy Spirit came upon all of us. And when we understood finally the love of God individually for each of us, He was just waiting to pour the Holy Spirit upon us.
00;47;44;06 - 00;48;12;03
Unknown
But we first needed to be offended, to discover love of self, then hate. It did choose to love despite. And then freedom from the things of the world came. Then the precious jewels of the Holy Spirit could be revealed. Wow. I think you just read the gospels. Yeah, it really was that. And you know, you really need to read Philippians three and then Paul about talking about weakness in after reading that dream.
00;48;12;09 - 00;48;44;15
Unknown
Yeah, At least I did. Yeah. Yeah, that's. that's so good, Mary. I love. I love you as all you don't understand. And you think he's the problem. That's right. Exactly. You're like, he's doing this to us on purpose. Yes. You screwed my life over. Yes, Yes. And you know, the interesting thing about a dream like that is that once you see the dragon skin or the dragon scales, right, it's like it's like, I'll say it this way.
00;48;44;17 - 00;49;06;16
Unknown
I think I don't ever want the memory of sin to leave me. Right? I want to be consciously aware that I have hurt his heart. Right? I you know, I've been thinking about this lately, actually. You know, I was saying last week when we were talking that I've been kind of stuck in the in second Samuel seven. Right.
00;49;06;16 - 00;49;29;13
Unknown
And I was talking about the prophetic word to David. And when after Nathan gets done speaking to David, the word of the Lord. Right. You know, you say you're going to build me a house, I'm going to build you a house, blah, blah, blah. All right, then the first thing David says, this is verse 18 after this. Great.
00;49;29;13 - 00;49;49;01
Unknown
This one of the great prophetic promises in scripture, right? David says this A King David went in and sat before the Lord. This is verse 18, and he said, Who am I? Lord, And what is my house that you brought me this far? Okay, so God reveals himself, or I'm just thinking about this in light of your dream, God reveals himself, right?
00;49;49;03 - 00;50;15;21
Unknown
Like David, You think you're going to build me a house? I'm going to build you a house. I've been with the people. I've been moving with the people. Everywhere you went, I was there. Right? So God reveals himself to David through the prophetic word. And the first thing David says is, What am I? Yeah, right. It's his first response to the revelation of God is to see himself the first responses, and to see his inadequacy in the midst of it.
00;50;15;21 - 00;50;40;05
Unknown
All right, Who am I? Lord, What is my house that you've brought me this far? So God reveals himself and David sees his own worth, his own ineffectiveness, or his I want to say worthlessness, but I don't mean he's worthless. But you know what I mean. He's come to grips with I'm weak and nothing. So and this is what and this is, I think, what the desert fathers and the early church fathers are trying to say.
00;50;40;05 - 00;51;02;15
Unknown
When God is revealed, you don't go, Wow, look how amazing I am. I want to be used to be even more amazing when God is revealed, you go, I don't have what he is and I'm nothing and all I can do is in him. So David goes on and he he like you can see that he's he's trying to describe God.
00;51;02;15 - 00;51;25;10
Unknown
He actually says this. What more can David say to you? That's what he says. I don't have any language to even express it anymore. David saying, right, God reveals himself. And David says, I can't even describe to you who you are. That's how ineffective I am. Is what David is saying. Right? And then David goes on to say, And who is like your people, who's like the nation of Israel, Right?
00;51;25;12 - 00;51;52;10
Unknown
So David goes, I'm I can't do anything. I'm weak and I'm helpless. God, you're amazing. I can't even describe you. And then he says, your nation is amazing. So at the revelation of God, David sees how amazing God's people are, how incredible God is, and how low He is. And it's like we think we like think of this so backwards that when God reveals himself, when prophetic ministry happens, everyone's going to see how great I am, how much better than the people I am and how much God needs me.
00;51;52;12 - 00;52;12;28
Unknown
Yes, it's like that. And then I give an example. They go for go for it has been reflecting on this lately. it's so horrible. Confession. Time to go for it. You'll you'll love this. So I was just hit the ball out of the park. You're prophetically right? So I go to this little prophetic gathering and this was partly this is probably like 30 years ago, right?
00;52;12;29 - 00;52;31;10
Unknown
No, no. This is like, give me I'm giving you an out. Okay, great. Thank you. no. You're like how it ends really bad. I just crashed the car right into the wall here. Good. So you'll think this is great. It's so embarrassing, but it's so true. The human heart, right? Yeah. And I just found this great quote by Mccarey is to sum it up.
00;52;31;10 - 00;52;56;22
Unknown
So. So I just. We have this group. My my spiritual dad likes me praying for people, so I go help him out. So I go pray. So I'm praying for the pastor. He sits down on the chair. You know, there's like 30 people there. And, you know, I see I just see you. You're in a stadium and you've got this javelin and you take three steps back and you throw it up into the sky and God catches it and, you know, goes on and on.
00;52;56;23 - 00;53;13;25
Unknown
And when he stops, he goes, I have to tell everybody, I was just in my office drawing this picture as I sat there asking God about my life. Right? So I'm like, I felt pretty good. I got to tell you, it felt good. I prayed for this gal I might have been the week before, and her name's Sarah.
00;53;13;25 - 00;53;31;14
Unknown
And I'm like, you know, I hear the Lord singing this silly little ditty over your life. And she goes, and I open my mouth. I'm going to start singing it, which is, you won't like that it because is it sera, sera, whatever. Exactly. I mean, I had it word for word, right? I was like, Yeah, come on, Hiccup.
00;53;31;16 - 00;53;53;29
Unknown
So the other day, so, you know, we live on this animal Farm rescue and this fellow had signed up to come help build things. Right? And and, you know, I built a bunch of things here. I don't know what I'm doing most of the time, but I figure it out eventually. But sometimes builder guys can be kind of, you know, if you ever go into like Home Depot is actually pretty good.
00;53;53;29 - 00;54;11;03
Unknown
But but some of them, you go into these places and you try to describe what you need to buy. You don't know they give you this look like you idiot kind of thing. Like, what an idiot. I hate that. I really hate that. So I'm stunned. They're building something. I'm building this cat cat house and I've got my saw.
00;54;11;09 - 00;54;26;17
Unknown
And sometimes we need to talk about oppressive thoughts. And now the enemy gives you thoughts, and it goes through my mind. I'm just building. I'm thinking about this guy. I'm a little bit nervous, and I think, you know what? What if he's one of these guys? What if he's one of these guys that's going to come here and judge all the stuff I built?
00;54;26;20 - 00;54;43;05
Unknown
What if he's going to judge the equipment I use and I start to get really worked up like, my goodness, I got to meet this guy on Saturday, right? I mean, I should have got a hold of myself. Pretty stupid, right? And I'm like, you know what? If he looks at my saw and he sees that I cut the cord off of it before because it's taped, you know what I'm going to do?
00;54;43;07 - 00;55;06;06
Unknown
I'm going to kick him off my property. And then right then there is this flash of light and my saw quits working and I've cut the cord off. My saw. And I looked down. I go, yeah. I let those thoughts get a little carried away. There did not look, I'm the same guy that gave those two prophetic words earlier.
00;55;06;06 - 00;55;25;28
Unknown
Yes. I'm the same guy that's out of the same heart. Yeah, isn't it? That's right. And so here's McCaffrey's the great on the heart of. Yeah, I know exactly what you're going to read. Go for it. The homilies of Saint McCaffrey has developed the idea of the heart, the part that the passions are in, that God wants to, you know, work on yourself that ultimately will be saved.
00;55;25;28 - 00;55;48;22
Unknown
The Seraphim would say the heart governs and reigns over the whole bodily organism. And when Grace possesses the ranges of the heart, it rules over all the members and the thoughts it should be ruling. It wasn't there, was it? For me, through there in the heart is the mind and the thoughts of the soul and its expectations. And this way, grace penetrates also to all the members of the body.
00;55;48;24 - 00;56;11;23
Unknown
Within the heart there are unfathomable depths. Boy, that's see that five times there are reception rooms and bed chambers in it, doors and porches and many offices and passages in it is a workshop of righteousness and of wickedness. And it is death and it is life. The heart is Christ Palace. There Christ comes the King and take His rest with the angels and the Spirit of the saints.
00;56;11;23 - 00;56;34;01
Unknown
He dwells there, walking within it and placing his kingdom there. It's a small vessel, the heart. And yet dragons and lions are there and they're poisonous creatures and all the treasures of wickedness. Ruffin And even paths are there and gaping chasms there. Likewise is God. There are the angels and life of the kingdom, their light and the apostles, the heavenly cities, all things are there.
00;56;34;03 - 00;56;58;19
Unknown
So just think about all the stuff in the out of the heart. The mouth speaks as Jesus would say, right or in I think it's Luke. Chapter two, where Simeon, the old guy, comes in, prays over Baby Jesus. This child will cause the rising and falling, so the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. You know, or again, Hebrews 412, for the Word of God is sharper than any double edged sword.
00;56;58;19 - 00;57;27;11
Unknown
He cuts between joints and marrow, soul and spirit, discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. So just look at my heart there. Your God's using me and all this cool stuff. And look what came out of the tap. my goodness. You know, and and again, this is why the desert fathers go on their deathbed. I have not even begun to repent because they you know, they have this idea that your gifting doesn't show you who you are.
00;57;27;14 - 00;57;46;27
Unknown
You know, God came and loved on me just as much after I cut my power cord off as he did after I gave those those really good prophetic words. And you know what? I think that might be a little bit of a sign of progress for me that I didn't beat myself up really badly. What an idiot. I was right there.
00;57;46;29 - 00;58;08;10
Unknown
But I could accept maybe his love for me as a fool as much as I could when of being an Avenger. You know that as Bob Jones used to say, If you raise the dead or sweep the floor, the pay's the same. That's right. You know, just. Just to. Just also to give legs to what MacQuarrie has said.
00;58;08;12 - 00;58;36;02
Unknown
Yes. That's a big there's lots of theology in there. Some were going going to go, What's dwelling in my heart? my God, You know, we'll get there. Yeah, we'll get there. Yeah. You just keep following the podcast, we'll get there. So MacQuarrie is a great MC. Curious is born. His dad's a priest. His mom's a very revered woman, and she actually has a dream before he's born when she is pregnant.
00;58;36;02 - 00;58;55;21
Unknown
Actually, even take it a step back. His dad gets sick and goes to a church and to recover from his sickness. Right. Because there's no healing that's happened. He encounters an angel and the angel says, Go home and know your wife and your wife will conceive a baby. I love that the angel told him to go have sex.
00;58;55;24 - 00;59;25;19
Unknown
That's amazing, honey, Because what? God told God, That's what God told me. So she gets pregnant. She has it. She has an encounter. He has an encounter where the life of miscarries is prophesied. So this is the way the MCU origin story from a curious so curious shows a very an aptitude. As a young man he becomes a reader and a deacon in the in the church and eventually he finds him so they want him to get married is want to get married.
00;59;25;19 - 00;59;57;11
Unknown
All this stuff happens. He leaves that. He leaves the town. He ends up living as a kind of a semi hermit outside of a local village serving as a priest. And he is at one point accused by a young woman of getting her pregnant. And the young woman has actually gotten pregnant from a young poor boy. And she's ashamed of the fact that the poor boy is poor because she comes from a rich family and which would have been quite a shameful thing at that time.
00;59;57;11 - 01;00;27;00
Unknown
So she accuses me curious. And my curious response is, well, MacQuarrie is now you have a wife and so curious. Rather than refuting and arguing, he just starts working to support the eventual baby that's going to come so mysterious. Then nine months go by, you know, as is the course of these things. And she is she's about to give birth and she goes into labor and she's in labor for one day.
01;00;27;02 - 01;00;47;12
Unknown
She's in labor for two days. And now she's so desperate, she realizes that it was either in the second or the third day that she realizes that unless she exonerates materials, she's never going to give birth to this baby, shouldn't be stuck in labor forever. And so she cries out and says it's not vicarious. It was actually this boy who got me pregnant.
01;00;47;12 - 01;01;12;09
Unknown
So mysterious becomes a bit of a local celebrity right now. Now that he's demonstrated this spiritual aptitude, if you will. Right. He's going is whether this false accusation and he's just humbly served the people where he became a pariah because of it. Now he's celebrated. So now he's got a line of people waiting for him. Right. They wanted to pray for him.
01;01;12;09 - 01;01;46;14
Unknown
They want his blessing. They want his insight. They want his wisdom. And and so you can you can just kind of imagine this happening, right? MacQuarrie is this man who you just heard within the heart are unfathomable depths, right? Where there's dragons and lions, they're all things are there right and and McCaffrey is goes okay now it's time to start Saint McCaffrey Ministries right now we need to have order forms Here's all you you know here's your $5 prayer, your $10 prayer, whatever.
01;01;46;14 - 01;02;09;02
Unknown
Right? No, of course not. McCaffrey leaves. That's what he does. He flees to the desert and finds Anthony the great. This is when Anthony becomes a spiritual father to him. So he flees to the desert and finds McCaffrey is because McCaffrey is doesn't want to be known all he wants to do is serve. He ends up becoming a priest and serving in the in the monastic community.
01;02;09;02 - 01;02;37;16
Unknown
But he doesn't want recognition. It's not the thing that's within his heart to grasp. He doesn't grasp now that it's right in front of him. Right. Fame, power, prestige, influence. Only I'm coming into my destiny. Finally, I had my breaker anointing. Exactly. It's all right there in front of him for the taking. And it's like today, would you fly it or would you grab it?
01;02;37;18 - 01;02;59;27
Unknown
What would you do? What would you do? Would you flee it or would you grab a will? Finally, this is the day of my anointing, right? Like Mary. Mary was saying that that very insightful. You know, when you think it's going to be the moment of your breakthrough, it's usually another three years, right? McCaffrey just goes. But here's the thing.
01;02;59;27 - 01;03;42;24
Unknown
McCaffrey is goes. I don't even want it would I'll say this would that we could be with that same attitude when it comes to fame influence power all these kind of things that we would go, actually I'm going to force God to make me famous, right? I'm going to do everything I can to not be that person. And then and then McCaffrey is becomes kind of the de facto, you know, group of guys that are the the heirs of Anthony the great and his influence McCaffrey is becomes one of the main guys and but he runs from fame and I'll tell one of the stories of doing all those years everybody he's praying and fasting
01;03;42;24 - 01;04;17;25
Unknown
search my heart know my heart right and so and so this is the thing like when will we see this? Always in scripture, when when like think about it, when Paul says when Paul sees like Mary references, right. The the thorn in the flesh. When Paul sees incredibly wondrous things, he has God revealed to himself. And the very next thing that's revealed to him, the very next thing is in your weakness.
01;04;17;25 - 01;04;43;00
Unknown
I'm strong. So God is revealed. And by the very fact of God being revealed are in ability is revealed. That's the whole point. So that we can see in him I could be sustained, but in me I can't. Right. This is I mean, this is all the way throughout scripture. This happens. So another story and then we'll we'll bring our recording to a close to finally get the time.
01;04;43;02 - 01;05;06;03
Unknown
So there's the story of a desert father as well as, you know, another one of these kind of what we look at is the kind of the defacto prophetic, the ongoing prophetic move in church history. And his name was Longinus. And so Longinus had a reputation that if you prayed for, if he prayed for you, you would be healed.
01;05;06;05 - 01;05;30;13
Unknown
And so this, this woman, she hears about Longinus, his reputation. She decides to go into the desert to find him, which is already a controversial thing that a woman would go find a desert monastic, you know, in the in the sense of that day and age, the the monks were not necessarily favorably disposed to entertaining women, lustful thoughts, all this kind of stuff.
01;05;30;13 - 01;05;47;11
Unknown
They were actually quite opposed to that. Most of the time. So anyway, she goes in there, she's she's searching in the area that he's in. She finds a couple of people and she says, Hey, have you guys seen Longinus? Can you point me in his direction? And they said, Yeah, this is the place that he typically hangs out.
01;05;47;11 - 01;06;07;25
Unknown
It's over there. Just go hang out. You'll find it. So she makes her way over there and she finds this dude hanging out in a tree and she calls out to the guy and she says, Hey, can you point me to Longinus? And the man in the tree says, Well, what do you want with that imposter? And she says, Well, I have I have this physical condition.
01;06;07;25 - 01;06;28;04
Unknown
And it it was something like breast cancer, you know, something like that. And so she points to the physical condition and she says, I was hoping Longinus would pray for me, that I would be healed. And he says, You don't need anything to do with him. You just make the sign of the cross over yourself, turn and go back where you came and God will heal you.
01;06;28;06 - 01;06;50;13
Unknown
And so she does just that, right? She makes the sign of the cross. She turns, she walks away. She's instantly healed. And so she goes away praising God, going, He's amazing. God's amazing. So she stumbles upon the group of people she found earlier who pointed towards Longinus, and they say, Hey, whatever happened? Right? And she says, I've been healed, radically healed, miraculously healed.
01;06;50;16 - 01;07;05;09
Unknown
And they said, Well, what like, did you find Longinus? She says, No, I never found him. Well, what happened while I was looking for my found this guy hanging out in a tree and he said, I didn't need Longinus, right? I just needed to make the sign of the cross and turn and God would heal me. And I said, Well, what did the guy in the tree look like?
01;07;05;09 - 01;07;24;02
Unknown
And so she described his appearance and they said, Well, that was Longinus. So the point in a story like that and and coupled with a story like McCaffrey is, is, you know, you've got these guys teaching deep principles of the spiritual life, the curious within, talking about the depth of the heart, all that you find in the heart.
01;07;24;02 - 01;07;47;19
Unknown
McCaffrey is wrote the 50 spiritual homilies in the great letter, incredible instruction when it comes to the life of the spirit. But none of them wanted recognition. Longinus has a reputation for healing, but doesn't even want it. So we would we would look at that and go, I, I now. Okay, now I'm starting to have a reputation. People are getting healed.
01;07;47;23 - 01;08;08;16
Unknown
I probably need to start all the Longinus Healing Ministries dot com. We probably need a launch shot. Right. We need it now. We need to make it an itinerant ministry. We need to travel around. We need to reach out to all the churches. We need a couple different endorsements. We need different people to speak well of us. We're going to put a couple of YouTube videos out so people will invite us.
01;08;08;18 - 01;08;31;10
Unknown
And then and then, you know, with our help, Right. With our help, God will really look good. All right. Yeah, that's essentially the mentality. With our help, God will really look good. And this is that, you know, to me, that's the same as the arc, right? Is that that the arc stumbles and what's his face? The guy goes, Well, let me fix it.
01;08;31;13 - 01;08;51;26
Unknown
With our help, God will really look good. That's what needs to die. A death blow in the heart of prophetic ministry. Today, with our help, God will be will be made known. God will be enough. People will know that God exists because I'm there. And the prophetic word let's take let's give one more shot at this quick. So thinking, you know, as you're talking, I'm thinking about Saint Simeon, the style.
01;08;51;28 - 01;09;12;07
Unknown
Here's a guy probably late five hundreds living on top of a pillar. So you've got a lot of ancient pillars hanging around and Rome is about 40 feet up. So this guy decides to move on top of this pillar and just hang up there right. And all these people start to gather around the bottom. You know, I guess he might have been the first one.
01;09;12;07 - 01;09;31;18
Unknown
But, you know, people are weird it into these, you know, a set of guys that do weird things and people start to get healed and they start to gather on the bottom and they start to tell their friends and they get healed. And he's trying to get away from people. That's why he's up there. Yeah. And finally the bishop and all these guys are hearing about all this and they're like, Well, what are we going to do?
01;09;31;20 - 01;09;55;16
Unknown
Like if this guy is legitimate, we don't want to stop what God's doing. But but if he's not of God, we need to stop this. And he had had just just he had had already a number of bouts of intense asceticism they found problematic. Before the pillar. He had tied him belt around himself or a rope around himself and let it rub himself raw until it ate into his flesh.
01;09;55;18 - 01;10;17;09
Unknown
Boy. And and so the fathers had actually expelled him from the monastery because he was a bad example for the other monks. He chained himself to a rock on the top of a mountain and nearly killed himself because he subjected himself to extreme weather conditions. And the fathers were already quite concerned about him. So when he started the pillar thing, they were going, This guy again, not this guy again.
01;10;17;09 - 01;10;37;26
Unknown
Yeah, and people were coming to him. So Merry, go ahead. Just to give that that context, miracles are happening so and so they decide to go up to him and command him to come down and just start yelling at him and debriefing him. And then they realized that if he didn't come down, therefore he was too committed to his own ministry.
01;10;37;29 - 01;10;59;25
Unknown
Right. But if he did come down and submit himself, then he was serving the Lord. Right. So they they gather around the pillar and they all the bishop and everybody starts yelling down, We got it. We have a bone to pick with you. Yeah, come down, Come here. The tribunal, whatever. And he comes down and he falls on his face before them all and humbles himself.
01;10;59;27 - 01;11;20;15
Unknown
And then they say, okay, now you can go back up. Yeah, but what was in his heart needed to be needed to be shown. Yeah. Right. What was in his heart needed to be shown. And, and his humility is what prove to them that God had called them to do that thing because He didn't need to be recognized, He didn't need to be seen, he didn't need any validation.
01;11;20;15 - 01;11;38;16
Unknown
He wasn't looking for any kind of acclaim or any kind of self-promotion or anything. He was just trying to be closer to God. Now it's it doesn't the thing is, it doesn't. When we read it through a modern lens, it doesn't make a lot of sense to us. Right. Like, well, it's interesting to look at the picture, though.
01;11;38;16 - 01;12;13;15
Unknown
Everybody of all the people gathered around the base and they're all wanting here. They want encounter with God, They want healing, they want breakthrough. They want, you know, and and this may be hard to put this when that's happening. It's easy to have that reflect back to your core values, like a mirror, like Josh said before about vision being like a mirror and and to be able to to walk away from it like that and say, I can just let it go.
01;12;13;15 - 01;12;40;12
Unknown
That quickly. It's okay. Yeah. And, and to get and to get there and, you know, like all these guys, you know, why are they and and I think if we, you know, this would've been a great place and everyone I would go back to listen to our last maybe episode or when we read a Mona's letter. Number 12, you know, the last two because we were talking Yeah and we're he talks about, well, you're in the desert and finally the spirit of God comes on you.
01;12;40;12 - 01;12;59;29
Unknown
You deal with your stuff and then you want to stay there and then the Lord sends you back, Right? But there is this process of of transformation and humility, you know, that that clothes you and you. You recognize that. and so I what was I going to say if I. Well, let me say this and then hopefully.
01;13;00;03 - 01;13;25;01
Unknown
Sorry, I just remembered my last point. Go ahead. Ahead. my goodness. The thing is, you realize if you go like like you were just telling us, telling me about that, you're now is an extreme example. But yet the principle here, your the the story you heard about the the monk who was being taken somewhere, I can't recall the context, but he wanted he wouldn't look at anybody.
01;13;25;01 - 01;13;51;15
Unknown
He covered his head too. Yeah. Yeah. Wouldn't look at anybody because he didn't want his communion with God to be interrupted. Right? Yeah, right. This is a modern day monk, like. Yeah, he was going to Father Mike's kind of. Yeah. Spiritual father. There's a guy in a in a maximum security prison in Colorado somewhere who they had correspondence, and, you know, he wanted to see him one last.
01;13;51;18 - 01;14;18;04
Unknown
So to go, he made sure he sat in a wheelchair and put on dark like blackout glasses so he could not see anything or anybody because didn't want his communion with God broken just by just by the defilement of of of being around people in their stuff, just been distracted like distracted, Right? Yeah. Yeah. So, so go ahead.
01;14;18;06 - 01;14;38;14
Unknown
Yeah. Well, you know, if we just think about that St Simeon example, did you say Let's just put that in a modern context. I'll cause a little bit of trouble here. This will cause some trouble. But it's okay. Everybody will just breathe through this. But just, just think about how they tested his heart. Come from there, you heretic, or whatever they said to him.
01;14;38;14 - 01;15;00;13
Unknown
And he did humility and they. Okay, now go back up. Could it be could it be everybody? Could it be that with the prophets who are prophesying, Trump would be the next president and he wasn't? And those ones who said I was wrong and they admitted it, they came down from the pillar and laid themselves on the ground to show their humility.
01;15;00;20 - 01;15;24;13
Unknown
Yeah. And that's what God was really looking for, to Show what was in the heart. Yeah. I think interest usually it's usually pretty interested and in showing what was in the heart so we want to we prove somebody is holy or anointed if they get it right. The Lord proved somebody who's holy and anointed when they get it wrong and it shows up within their dome.
01;15;24;15 - 01;15;44;24
Unknown
Yeah, I remember Paul Cain said, I'll throw this out. One last thought to Paul Cain, a brilliant, brilliant guy who, you know, he had some stuff to do, right? He's doing this ministry with Jack Dear in in Australia, probably a vineyard thing. And the first night he's given these cracking words and the power God shows up and all these crazy things happen next night he's walking to the podium.
01;15;44;24 - 01;16;01;04
Unknown
If I remember the story correctly, he drops his own reading glasses, steps on them, bends down to pick them up, hits his head on the podium. You know, he can't find his note page. Everyone's laughing and he just walks off the stage. It was like a clown show. And Jack Deer is just so offended and hurt and angry.
01;16;01;09 - 01;16;16;22
Unknown
These people paid all this money. They did all this stuff. You know, it's going to look bad on on, you know, if it was Vineyard Ministries back in those days, you know, he's up that he's and they're walking on the beach the next day to. Get ready for the next meeting. And Jack says to Paul Cain, what happened last night?
01;16;16;22 - 01;16;46;23
Unknown
Paul? And Paul Cain says, We have this power in jars of clay. And sometimes God wants to show off the power. Sometimes he wants to show off the jar. You know, it's not up to me. Yeah. Are you okay with that? Yeah. This is the that Mona says point was that, you know, just. Just thinking about all of that in context.
01;16;46;25 - 01;17;16;29
Unknown
Yeah. That last part of that letter was so a mona says point was if I go, communion risks being broken. Yeah. So, so I don't want to go because this is to this point of rest and peace and knowing him and being aware of him is too important for me to go. If he says to go, I will because I trust him and I love him.
01;17;17;02 - 01;18;03;20
Unknown
But again, this whole thing, the hesitancy to use the gift to build a platform, Why? Because I'm hesitant. Because I know how easy it is for me to communion. So I'd rather be used in hidden ways to preserve communion. That's the through line that we're talking about here. Yeah, right. That that that humility. And then beyond that humility, that intense recognition and desire to be just known and seen by, you know that's that's when it comes back to re rebalancing or just just, you know, taking a fresh look at prophetic ministry to the eyes of the early church and applying those principles today.
01;18;03;20 - 01;18;25;21
Unknown
That's what Marie and I are talking about, that the the the lifeblood of prophetic ministry is not being seen and heard. The life of the prophetic ministry is is being hidden and being seen by him and not how great your gift is. So that's that's essential. We're trying to see I hope we communicated that throughout the context of this whole episode.
01;18;25;24 - 01;18;45;08
Unknown
So any last thoughts were, Well, this one little quote from a monness I you know, you guys, you should track this thing down. I'm sure you can find it online. The letters of them, Amona, the letters of Amona, the bishop, translated by Dervis Chiti the Dervis Treaty. The Yes, No, he's not a goat at this point is not.
01;18;45;08 - 01;19;15;01
Unknown
Yes, but not yet. But those who are sent from God do not want to go away from their quiet, knowing that through it they have obtained the divine power. But order. But in order not to disobey the Creator, they for the spiritual edification of men in imitation of him, for as a father, sent his very son from heaven to heal all their infirmities, thus all the saints who come a moment to heal them, follow the example of their creator that they might be made worthy of adoption.
01;19;15;04 - 01;19;35;04
Unknown
And he says, But but monks at the present time have been unable to persevere and quiet and heal their souls because he cannot overcome self-will for this reason. They live among men all the time, since they're unable to despise themselves and flee from the company of men. So they need to be around everybody because they get their identity.
01;19;35;04 - 01;19;52;21
Unknown
Their Who am I? Where do I fit? What do people think about me? What's my purpose? Yeah, just don't worry about all those things. Hang out with Jesus. Let him level on you. You know, we community don't. That's not what I'm saying. But identity, you know, when the spirit comes upon you, is ministry going to happen? Absolutely you will.
01;19;52;24 - 01;20;19;09
Unknown
But why? Purity of heart. That's right. Blessed are the poor and heart, for they shall see God. And you know, that's not it's for the faint of heart, you know, but to develop this personal time with the Lord away from the prying eyes of people, you know, to have that time to develop, really realizing it's important and how the enemy lies, you're wasting your time and no one's going to see you.
01;20;19;09 - 01;20;43;16
Unknown
What's going to happen your life and and just realize, you know, you know all that's not true. There are Isamu Heaven. That's right. You're surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses. And that's right. And we're, you know, we're so told by our parents, our teachers, our friends. So what are you going to do with your life? You know, it's drilled into us so young.
01;20;43;18 - 01;21;01;07
Unknown
Yeah. You know, maybe the answer would be, I'm going to go spend some time with Jesus. I'd be a good answer. And and, you know, I think that could sum up and let him heal the heart and fix our humanity and let us see who we are. Love on his anyway, you know, and take care of those things.
01;21;01;12 - 01;21;23;29
Unknown
So good. Yeah So I think that's a good way to. Yeah, well yeah I think with that we'll we'll call this this episode of Voices from the Desert to a close and we've got a little bit more that we want to say going forward on the prophetic manifesto and we're going to cover the rest of the points. Hopefully I think we might be able to get through the rest them next week, So we'll see.
01;21;23;29 - 01;21;49;13
Unknown
But yeah, I think we might pound through it, but we never do that. Yeah, What I don't think we need to. I mean, I don't know. This has been great for. Yeah, yeah. Lots of fun. I got to share a couple. It's fun to sneak some dreams in everybody because, you know, Josh and I are these crazy, prophetic people and we it's good to show, you know, the show that side that, you know, it's not that we have stopped being charismatic.
01;21;49;14 - 01;22;13;13
Unknown
No far from it. But our view of how we're being charismatics is forming more through a historical lens. Yeah. Because of the purity of heart issue and and hopefully, you know, I know there's people out there that go, you know, I'm prophetic. I hear things. I see things. I need a lens. It's not working. Why isn't it working?
01;22;13;16 - 01;22;35;28
Unknown
Well, one of the reasons it's not working is identities coming from from doing rather than being, you know, So hopefully, you know, you guys, as you hear this you can go there is a historical Church of Saints for thousands of years backing you up to just love Jesus first. That's right. And everything else will take care of itself.
01;22;36;01 - 01;22;57;10
Unknown
Yeah. Amen. Amen. Well, with that, everybody, we're we're going to say goodbye. And and so I'm going to go fix my power cord and and and get that thing duct tape back up, work on getting a go, naming it Darius, That Dervis Chitty is coming. Okay. Thanks, everybody, for tuning in, and we will see you next time. Okay.
01;22;57;15 - 01;23;38;29
Unknown
Bye. For now, everyone is.