Ever wondered how the early church perceived Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers? Join Josh and Murray on Voices from the Desert as we explore the Prophetic Manifesto and what the early church had to say about Five-fold Ministry. Uncover insights into how these roles were embraced in the early church, shaping its spiritual fabric. Reflect on their significance then and consider how that applies to contemporary leadership today. How did the early church envision these vital roles, and what lessons can we draw from their understanding? Tune in for a fascinating journey through history, contemplating the relevance of Ephesians 4 in our modern spiritual landscape.
The 7 Points of the Prophetic Manifesto:
- The reputation of Macarius the Great.
- The Desert Fathers (aka the prophets in the church) were sought for their great understanding of Scripture.
- The primary function of prophetic ministry is to reveal the nature of God/heart of Christ. A secondary/tertiary function is telling the future.
- An intense regards for humility, solitude, and silence (see the aforementioned Macarius)
- A hesitancy to use a gift to build a platform. Prophets/those in prophetic ministry ought to desire to be hidden rather than seen and to see the gift used in hidden ways.
- De-shackling the function of prophecy from end-times eschatology
- A healthier understanding of 5-fold ministry (admitting that we don't know what we are talking about). How has it been applied in ages past?
For more about Joshua Hoffert visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
For more about Murray Dueck and the Samuels Mantle school visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
Ever wondered how the early church perceived Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers? Join Josh and Murray on Voices from the Desert as we explore the Prophetic Manifesto and what the early church had to say about Five-fold Ministry. Uncover insights into how these roles were embraced in the early church, shaping its spiritual fabric. Reflect on their significance then and consider how that applies to contemporary leadership today. How did the early church envision these vital roles, and what lessons can we draw from their understanding? Tune in for a fascinating journey through history, contemplating the relevance of Ephesians 4 in our modern spiritual landscape.
The 7 Points of the Prophetic Manifesto:
- The reputation of Macarius the Great.
- The Desert Fathers (aka the prophets in the church) were sought for their great understanding of Scripture.
- The primary function of prophetic ministry is to reveal the nature of God/heart of Christ. A secondary/tertiary function is telling the future.
- An intense regards for humility, solitude, and silence (see the aforementioned Macarius)
- A hesitancy to use a gift to build a platform. Prophets/those in prophetic ministry ought to desire to be hidden rather than seen and to see the gift used in hidden ways.
- De-shackling the function of prophecy from end-times eschatology
- A healthier understanding of 5-fold ministry (admitting that we don't know what we are talking about). How has it been applied in ages past?
For more about Joshua Hoffert visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
For more about Murray Dueck and the Samuels Mantle school visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;40;29
Unknown
Hi, everyone. I'm Ernie from Voices from the Desert. Thought I would tell you something that I'm not to. We are doing a year one Samuel Mandell beginning in January, where we're going to teach you or whoever comes along how to listen to the Lord, how to picture, how to three, how to switch theater. Sensitivity is how to bring joy to the father's heart using your gift.
00;00;40;29 - 00;01;11;19
Unknown
And if that sounds exciting to you, go to the Sammy's magic Facebook page or the website that we used that was fabulous. Microsoft Microsoft.com. For more information, it's by donation. Do you know of anybody? Join us in January and become part of the family. Bless you, guys. Thanks, Maria. And this is your other host. Joshua offered not only to take a second to let you know that I'm releasing a new book actually coming out in just a few days called The Silent Fire Collection.
00;01;11;21 - 00;01;35;19
Unknown
We're taking all the devotionals we put together on the Desert Fathers in the desert mothers and putting them in one big collection with a new introduction, talking about the lives of these figures in the desert. Do you buy bios for each one of them? A new format for each one go. That's going to be awesome. So take a look at the link in the podcast description for Samuel's Mental and verse School and also this new book that we have coming out.
00;01;35;19 - 00;02;03;08
Unknown
So take a look. And then without further ado, to the podcast, welcome everyone, to Voices. From the desert. Desert, desert desert routes. Murray Desert Better than I do. So yeah, usually I used to do the intro to do the how I went totally WWE ANNOUNCER in 1980s vintage there. Yeah. Yeah. You had the microphone drop from the ceiling.
00;02;03;08 - 00;02;24;29
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. I think that'd be good. Ready to Voices from the desert. That's right. There you go, everyone. I got cost effective gifting totally till the tone me there as a young man's name. Paul. I don't think the young and say Poland anymore. What was that? you're kidding me. That was a new word not long ago, I think.
00;02;24;29 - 00;02;44;05
Unknown
I think you're showing your age a little bit. I was like, maybe now they say, no cap. I think that's one of the things. No cap. No cap. Yeah. Murray doesn't know what that means. I know I've seen some of these things. Sometimes my kids just to annoy them. So, yes, there's other ones. I don't know what what the No cap means.
00;02;44;08 - 00;03;06;26
Unknown
No cap means. That's true. You're not lying. Like if you say, then you could say I call Cap. I means you're lying. You know so. Well, anyway. Yeah, it sounds funny when someone who's 40 plus says it probably must say that. So in my house, my house is literally full of bro, brah. Dude, bro, I know, brah.
00;03;06;26 - 00;03;40;26
Unknown
Brock Well, this isn't just my two boys, my daughter. also. bro. Dad, bro, I get that, bro. Dad, I it's. Yes. Yeah. That's why we need hermeneutics in the church. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly like this. I try to. We're trying to elevate the conversation a little bit, and it's like, although I did it, I had a conversation with my daughter this morning about the Trinity, and she says, I told that she was talking about a friend.
00;03;40;26 - 00;04;08;17
Unknown
I told him it's like an apple. You've got this for the skin and the core and the ugly. You know, she's using the analogy. And I was like, well, I'm try to think, okay, that's a Gratz. I love your understanding, but I'm like, but that doesn't really work. So so I was trying that not, you know, my theology mind was going, yeah, but, but my dad mine was going, that's awesome.
00;04;08;19 - 00;04;36;25
Unknown
Yeah. Well Brian they both delighted and I didn't know what to say. Wow. Very cool. Yes, that reminds me of that thing on the trinity of the two. The two Irishmen you sent me, you guys. yeah. That was all about this. Yeah, we've. We've mentioned it before. It's st Patrick and it's. so Harris's something is the name of the video.
00;04;36;25 - 00;05;04;23
Unknown
And anyway, if you want a good laugh, look up Saint Patrick. The Harris's cartoon video. Yeah, it's really funny. Yeah. Bad heresies are bad analogies. That's what it's called. Yeah. Yeah. Saint Patrick. God, analogies. Look up. That is a really funny video logo, bro. Yeah, bro. Dude, no. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yes. Yeah. So, Murray. All right, let's get back on it, guys.
00;05;04;24 - 00;05;36;21
Unknown
We're blowing off steam here, so, you know, let's go over again. Josh is manifesto points. Yeah, I'm going back to wrestling. Welcome, everyone. Judges, manifesto points. Let's go over them again one more time. We're at the last one here. Let's get ready to manifesto and then write the music to put in right there to talk to John, you know, So because they're all building on each other and we're at the last one here, so let's, let's go from the beginning and just go over them and then we'll camp on the last one.
00;05;36;21 - 00;06;06;03
Unknown
Break it down. Yeah, because we're on we're on point number seven right now. And why seven points? There's no real reason. It just when we're of an incomplete number of perfection, it's a seven spirits of God. That's why. No, it's there was just this I just was writing out going man if if prophetic ministry was known for these things and I was thinking about it through the lens of how the early church practiced and what they thought we'd be in a better place, not to say they didn't have problems.
00;06;06;03 - 00;06;26;29
Unknown
Right? We talked about that in earlier episodes. So you can go back almost about 15 episodes now to see when we started talking about prophecy from the lens of the early church. So we've been on this kick for a long time. And what it would look like if contemporary prophetic ministry took some inspiration from prophetic ministry in the early church.
00;06;27;02 - 00;07;12;00
Unknown
So the first the first point of the manifesto is that prophetic ministry would be known through the reputation of MacQuarrie as the great. And we referencing a quote where Pullman observes mysterious in his prophetic gifting and just how tender and humble mysterious came across so that that was point number one. Number two is that prophetic ministry would be known for the robust interpretation and defense of Scripture, much like the the desert fathers, the prophets of the early church, The desert fathers were seen in light of that, a primary function of prophetic ministry is to reveal the nature of God in the heart of Christ and a secondary or a tertiary function is to reveal a
00;07;12;00 - 00;07;42;25
Unknown
future that's not the primary. So we talked about that. We we looked at an intense regard for humility, solitude and silence. We spent a while camping on that and that prophetic people should seek to be silent more than they should seek to be heard. They should seek solitude more than they should seek a platform. And we got our our friend Chris Hawthorne commenting on that one on social media.
00;07;42;25 - 00;08;04;02
Unknown
And that was cool. Yeah. I like Chris. You said he's a he's a good guy. I know. I know his brother quite well. And then the next one was a hesitancy to use the gift to build a platform, rather desire to see the gift used in hidden ways and, and so we talked about that, right? We looked at examples in the early church where that wasn't the case.
00;08;04;08 - 00;08;25;19
Unknown
And these all compound and build upon each other then de shackling the function of prophecy from end times eschatology. And and we asked the we posed the question, what would it be like if we asked the question, what is the kingdom like in the midst of calamity? Not what's the outcome of the calamity? And, you know, where's the father in the midst of all this?
00;08;25;22 - 00;08;50;07
Unknown
And we talked through the reading scripture here and reading the prophecies in the Bible and then seeing prophetic ministry today through the bridal lens paradigm, bridal intimacy now. And I love how Murray pulled out the Matthew 24, how much comfort Jesus was offering to the people not be afraid. All these things are going to happen, but be assured that the father is going to take care of you.
00;08;50;09 - 00;09;12;01
Unknown
And so he's stirring faith. So and then the point the point number last point seven is and we've been holding this off to last because it's the last on the manifesto. Not that it's last as it's more important or less important. It's just where it happened to landed on land on the list as I was writing it out, a healthier understanding of five fold ministry.
00;09;12;01 - 00;09;34;23
Unknown
And so that's where we're at today. And you know what? I hate to say it, we should have done those like David Letterman's top ten list. Everyone said, Yeah, I'm still in that mood. Yeah, they should have intro music and address moral for each one. So. That's right. Yes, that's where we are. So if we had a podcast producer that wanted to do all the editing and everything to do this right, then it would happen that out.
00;09;34;23 - 00;09;55;19
Unknown
Volun It's a volunteer position, but you'll get lots of accolades from us and someone that wants to do that, we'd be happy to have you on board the team. So yeah, there you go. Yeah. I'm going to enable our innate sense of humor. That's right. Yes, that's right. Yeah. Take advantage of both of our quirkiness. Yeah, it would be fun.
00;09;55;26 - 00;10;35;16
Unknown
I don't I a a friend, not a guy. I know he's not a friend. I don't know him well. He's just. He's just someone I, he's connected through kids sports. Said we're friends on Facebook now. And he said, Hey, I saw you have a podcast. What's your podcast about that I Aaron said the the he he did not expect the answer that I gave him because it's church history and we look at monks and study the lives of the men and of these men and women that were crazy and went off into the desert and you could he was like, total Ishmael gay just like I was like, as I said to them, it's
00;10;35;16 - 00;10;38;17
Unknown
a niche podcast.
00;10;38;19 - 00;10;56;01
Unknown
But yeah, it's funny when someone, when someone who has no clue goes people out of podcasts about that. And you could tell that was the he's a, he's a really nice guy. It was just it was a funny interaction. What what's your podcast about? You're not going to expect it. You know, I got to ask your friends. You look at me the same way.
00;10;56;04 - 00;11;18;04
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's true. Exactly. That's right. Yes. Those are ministers. And you go, What? That's right. I completely agree with you. Yes. Like Mary and I and I'm sure many of our listeners go, they don't seem to fit in a lot of the places that I end up. And I don't even know how to tell you where I fit in.
00;11;18;04 - 00;11;43;03
Unknown
When someone says, What do you do? I go, I'm still trying to figure that out. Yeah, I often hear that Christmas song from Remember Christmas Island with Rudolph. There's this island called The Island and. yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. We are on the island of Misfit Toys. Yeah, I'm a boat that doesn't float. Yeah, yeah. I think that's the phrase I most identify with is the.
00;11;43;03 - 00;12;08;15
Unknown
The Motley Crew. Yeah. Not the band. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, it's, it's definitely. But it's interesting. It's nice to see that people out there, prophetic people that have been through, you know, some stuff. I remember John Paul Jackson said he read John Sanford's book. Elijah Teske, Great book, everybody. Yeah. I think the first book written on the prophetic.
00;12;08;15 - 00;12;26;29
Unknown
And where was his book on dreams, like in 200 years or something crazy like that? Sure, I probably have the wrong book there. But his dream book I heard I was told that anyway. I mean, it's a classic, basically. And he read John Paul Read in there. It takes 15 years to make a profit. And he threw the book down, picked it up, kicked it across the room.
00;12;27;01 - 00;12;45;23
Unknown
You so mad. And then he then and then I heard him say at this conference, you know what? He's wrong. It takes 25 years to make a profit. And if you've been through that process, you end up here. I remember I remember talking with John Paul about that, actually, I'm pretty sure John Paul said, if I know this, I this is a while ago.
00;12;45;23 - 00;13;06;15
Unknown
But he talked with John about that. John Sanford because John Sanford, he'd considered a spiritual father and John Sandford. It was just like I just had to put a number out there. It actually takes a lifetime. Ah ha ha ha. Knife, right? Yeah. So anyway, and where do we agree? Like, well, and that's the case like we're always being formed, right?
00;13;06;15 - 00;13;28;27
Unknown
I mean that, that process never stops. That's right. I don't, I don't think it, it stops when we're in eternity. I just think it keeps going. Yeah, that's right. You know, walked out of a whole podcast. And what does eternity look like now? We're going, Yeah, I guess it might be a short podcast. We could be like Paul, It's going to be interesting, but we don't really know, right?
00;13;28;28 - 00;13;46;28
Unknown
But I love I love the language of Paul trying to work it out, right? Well, we've got bodies so terrestrial, earthly bodies, but then we're going to have celestial bodies. But who knows what that's even going to look like right there. And you can even see the gospel writers wrestling with Jesus just kind of appeared and ate and he walked through a wall.
00;13;46;28 - 00;14;20;00
Unknown
But he's still with us. And then he had nails in his hands. But and we didn't recognize him at first when he was walking with us. It wasn't until he broke bread. Like, you can see this kind of wrestle with what does it look like? Yeah, that's kind of sanctified humanity anyway. Or if the risen, the risen Christ anyway, But today we're talking about five fold ministry and I think the the Asterix that Marie and I have to put on this is by no means do either one of us consider ourselves experts.
00;14;20;07 - 00;14;51;26
Unknown
boy. And and I might even go as far to say, even as a non-expert. But I think one of the reasons why I'd go I don't I don't consider myself an expert, but I'm I would say I partly because I haven't been satisfied with anything I've seen where people say, this is it. And and I think that's probably my my dilemma is we look across the face of the earth and we go, there's, you know, this apostolic network.
00;14;51;28 - 00;15;11;20
Unknown
I remember getting an email from someone about the five marks of an apostle. This is some like, I don't know, apostolic networks thing, whatever, right? There's lots of those things out there now. And it was and I just looked at the five marks and I went, That's just what it means to be a Christian. Like, that's not what makes an apostle.
00;15;11;20 - 00;15;35;07
Unknown
It's just sometimes people exchange these terms, apostle, prophet, all these things as what it looks like to be a fully alive person to Jesus. Yeah, because they mistake it, because they go. The people that are fully alive to Jesus were passionately inspired by. So we want to follow their example. And and, you know, we talked about how we've talked about that in the podcast.
00;15;35;07 - 00;16;01;16
Unknown
I won't belabor the point about how contemporary Christianity tends to allow for seeing itself as saved in name only and not in lifestyle. And and, you know, Mary, you've made the point that the first 600 years of Christian history, looking at your quoting written Kelsey and Morton Kelsey talking about how people didn't become Christians outside of encounter. Yeah.
00;16;01;16 - 00;16;29;09
Unknown
And and so today we don't necessarily look at people becoming a Christian because of encounter. We look at people becoming a Christian because of a prayer or you know, they attended an alpha course or something like that, you know, and those are all great. I'm not saying they're not. We're just saying, you know, that that people don't seem to understand apostolic, prophetic, evangelistic, pastoral teacher, these kind of five fold ministry functions.
00;16;29;09 - 00;16;53;04
Unknown
And I'm I've been unsatisfied in what how people describe it. So with that said Mary and I do plan to have some guests on to talk about these things people that yeah and the reason being that that again I've been through like eight church splits and you know I don't need to number them off, but most of them come down to in the end somebody saying, well, I'm the apostle, you have to do what I say, you know And right, like pulling rank, pulling rank, right.
00;16;53;04 - 00;17;19;00
Unknown
So making it instead of about relationship or even getting healing, making it about the vision, the program or the title and and well, as I said to Josh, you know, off camera or whatever, off microphone, no cap and, you know, in in Greece today, you know, you'll see. I got it wrong, didn't I? I, I don't know. I don't know how these things these days.
00;17;19;03 - 00;17;44;27
Unknown
You tried you sounded you sounded really hip, though. Thank you. So in Greece today in the newspaper, there will be an ad apostle needed must have owned bicycle because? Because the word apostle is messenger. Right. But you see, why don't you make it a title instead of a function. Right. And and then it's problematic in the church. I remember Rick Joyner saying you can't you can't throw a rock and a crowd anymore without hitting an apostle here, you know.
00;17;44;27 - 00;18;07;19
Unknown
And it used to be that that that was prophet and then all of a sudden, over time, while apostles even better than prophets, we all want to be apostle. I want to be close to God. I need a better title. So. you know it. And what does that do in our relationships when we're functioning out of out of a title or a position rather than out of out of intimate love.
00;18;07;21 - 00;18;25;10
Unknown
And we're all orphans, then we're each other, right? Yeah, we're all orphans. And so we yeah, we're going to cover some of these things because, you know, I know many of you are watching this because you know, you're you've come to the same conclusions, know just with messengers back and forth with a bunch of you. Like, like there has to be.
00;18;25;15 - 00;18;46;10
Unknown
What's wrong here with, with the way the church is functioning. And, you know, it comes into this thought right here, a little bit of how the church is currently seeing five fold ministry and then then the outworking of the application. You know, I see all previous episodes. So, you know, we may end up like we'll just see where we talk through this.
00;18;46;10 - 00;19;06;14
Unknown
We might it might be multiple episodes. Like Mary said, we and we may just end up talking about Apostolic and maybe we'll deal with each one individually because you really could. But I think just just right off the bat, we can say a couple of different ways that quote, you know, quote unquote five fold ministry has been characterized.
00;19;06;14 - 00;19;40;04
Unknown
And for those of our listeners that don't know what we're referring to when we say five fold ministry, because, you know, that's a distinctly charismatic language, the the references of Ephesians four where Paul lays out the the certain graces that are given to the body of Christ and he says he gives some to the apostles, this is I have it right in here, but it's verse 11 and in chapter four he gives some to the apostles, some to be pastor or some to the apostles, some prophets, some evangelists and some pastors and teachers.
00;19;40;06 - 00;19;57;07
Unknown
And so that's typically what those five graces are called, five fold ministry. So just a couple of things right off the bat. We can say you could characterize it because we want to look through the lens of the early church. That's kind of our goal here is how they thought about that. So the first thing, how to apply it.
00;19;57;10 - 00;20;18;01
Unknown
Yeah, how do you think about it, how they apply it? So the first thing is it was never today. Sometimes people apply it as a leadership structure. You need to have an apostle on staff, you need to have a prophet on staff, you need to have an evangelist. And if you don't have that person, he needs to be under an apostle or it needs to be under an apostle, because then the anointing on the apostle comes down on you.
00;20;18;01 - 00;20;44;22
Unknown
So you need an important work. Yes. So or and then they'll say like if you don't have a a prophet on staff or in your, you know, in your church, in your ministry, then you can connect with another prophet who can bring his grace and sidle and walk alongside you. And, and so all of that what's and so we might need to have to explain all of that.
00;20;44;25 - 00;21;22;00
Unknown
Yeah. It would not understand anything. We just said that. And so the first thing I want to say is when we look through the lens of the patristic age, that this, this passage was never once treated as a prescription for leadership. So you can't find anywhere where they interpreted that and said, well, we need to have an apostle and a prophet and an evangelist and a pastor and a teacher in every one of our church places, and that we have.
00;21;22;02 - 00;21;51;17
Unknown
Okay, great. We have apostle so-and-so, you know, we have Apostle Tertullian here or we have an Apostle Basil here like you just you just don't see it at all. And and today that's kind of a popular thing to say. Well, we have this apostle here and this is the like either this is the apostle that we're under or this is the apostle that is the apostle of this church and this is the prophet that's on staff of this church.
00;21;51;20 - 00;22;12;29
Unknown
And I don't want to denigrate I don't want to denigrate, you know, kind of church governance or ecclesial ecclesiastical structure. We're not trying to denigrate that. We're just saying in the early church that was not looked at as a as a formal structure for leadership. And some some people look at it today that way, everybody so God gave them.
00;22;12;29 - 00;22;37;27
Unknown
But for, you know, to model a relational paradigm. So so and maybe I'll just throw in a thought here to Josh, if you don't mind. So me when when this thinking really started to come into the church, at least the churches I was involved in, in the nineties kind of mid, early mid nineties, the statement would be would be like this, you know, churches are not built on pastors and teachers in scripture.
00;22;38;04 - 00;23;01;25
Unknown
You know, they're built on apostles and prophets. And the problem with the church today is when you build just a church on teachers and pastors, you have good you have theology, but you've got no presence and you're built on pastors. You're just building on people's needs. If you're building on an apostle, you're bringing in this ding ding diamond ism, dynamic dynamism, thinking, dynamo, dynamism.
00;23;01;25 - 00;23;29;19
Unknown
Yeah, that's what you're looking for. No Chaparro Yeah. So the new one. That's the word. Yeah, the filler word. So and so we all thought, that's great. That's what we need to do. We need to make sure that as a churches we're connected to or under the ministries of apostles and prophets, because the prophets will bring in the spirit, you know, maybe we're just a teaching slash pastor church, and then the apostle will bring in this builder dynamic.
00;23;29;19 - 00;23;55;01
Unknown
MC About the vision, Sure. And you started to get this real shift in the church structures believing because because people are thinking, why aren't we growing? Why aren't churches growing? Why aren't lots of people getting saved? this is why. Yeah, that's always the problem to me is there's always it seems to me we have this ulterior motive that more or less rethink it and reinterpret it because we're not seeing what we want to have happen.
00;23;55;04 - 00;24;24;12
Unknown
But go ahead. That kind of became a bit of a foundation here that got things off. If we just if we just do this, then our churches will grow. And when you make it about that, your foundation is already faulty. You know, Lord, Lord, we healed the second rate that did the part for me. I never knew, you know, you know, we're again, not looking at the reason these gifts are given, which is to bring the body, the body to maturity, the body to maturity.
00;24;24;14 - 00;24;47;10
Unknown
So yes. And anyway, so well, let's let me just say let me say this, okay. In relation to that, that that because this is the assumption, the I don't care where the verses but it's in the New Testament that the apostles and the prophets are the foundation of the church, right? Yes. All right. Let's just that's what Murray was just was just referencing.
00;24;47;13 - 00;25;24;25
Unknown
So apostles and profits are the are the foundation and I'm just going to look it up really quick. Yeah. So the question that we can properly, you know, are the foundation. Let's see, this is where's our visions to Ephesians two verse 20. Okay, so let's just bring the, the, the verse up. So verse 20 now therefore you no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with saints and members of the household of God.
00;25;24;29 - 00;26;02;03
Unknown
The context for all of this is bring as is is essentially the the division between God and man and Israelite and Gentile being destroyed. So we're all one in Jesus, right? This is the whole point of Ephesians two is that Jesus is reconciled non God people and God people and humanity and divinity. He's reconciled these things, right? He's broken down the middle wall of separation and he's abolished this flesh, the enmity that's between them, the law that is the law of commandments.
00;26;02;05 - 00;26;20;19
Unknown
And he creates one new man. This is how it whether it's talking about context, context, context, night and verse 19, you're no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, meaning the has been broken down between the two and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone.
00;26;20;27 - 00;26;42;02
Unknown
Okay, so the context for having been been been built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets is the breaking down of the wall of separation between the Gentiles and the Jews between man and God. Okay. And so now he's saying, you're all fellow citizens, and everyone's been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. What's he what's Paul saying?
00;26;42;05 - 00;27;06;01
Unknown
Paul is saying he's not saying that every church needs to have the foundation of an apostle and a prophet. He's saying the church, the bride. What's been the New Kingdom movement that's been ushered into the world through Jesus is built on the foundation of the prophets in the Old Testament who foretold the coming of Jesus and the Apostles who explained the message of Jesus to the people.
00;27;06;03 - 00;27;32;14
Unknown
So that's the context of Ephesians two. It's not going well. We all need apostles of prophets, it's going the foundation are the prophets because they prophesied Jesus is coming. And this is this is clear. When you read things like Tertullian, who makes the case to the Jews that the prophets are now with the with the church, they're no longer with the Jews, because and he's not so much talking about prophetic gift, although there's implications to that, and he does talk to that.
00;27;32;14 - 00;27;54;14
Unknown
But when he's saying it, he's saying the prophetic scriptures point to the coming of Jesus. And now those are with us because the church is built on the foundation of the prophets, meaning the Old Testament prophets. That's the foundation. And and this is the reason why Elijah shows up on the mount of Transfiguration with Jesus, because you've got the law in Moses and the prophets and Elijah.
00;27;54;16 - 00;28;18;12
Unknown
And then so Jesus said, The law and the prophets continue up. Tell me Elijah represents the prophets. Moses represents the law. So. So this is not telling you again, this is the problem as we read it as a leadership, functional parameters. This is what it's supposed to be like. All church needs apostles of prophets. No, that's not what it's saying.
00;28;18;14 - 00;28;41;01
Unknown
Okay? And I'm not. This isn't an argument that says apostles and prophets don't exist today, so this is just not what the verse means. Yeah, I mean, look at the ministries that we do. The you know, if the prophetic didn't exist today, we wouldn't be exactly ministries. You're Samuel's manual. It's not the point. The point is identity from position.
00;28;41;03 - 00;28;56;29
Unknown
Yeah. And then, and then using that to build yourself some kind of network or having people say, well, you've got to do what I tell you, because look at my title, you know, look at my position. And then when you when you're using it in that way, it becomes very harmful and destructive and you get a lot of spiritual abuse.
00;28;57;03 - 00;29;18;01
Unknown
There's a lot of people. That's right. And, you know, one reason we're talking about that is, is for you that have been hurt. Hey and there like and there's some people that because it's so ingrained I failed I didn't do my calling. I didn't do what the apostle told me. They live in all this guilt. Yeah. No, you know, God, maybe the Lord told you it was time to leave.
00;29;18;01 - 00;29;35;17
Unknown
Maybe the Lord told you to get out of there for your own health. Maybe the Lord had a new assignment. Maybe, you know, Don't. Don't should on yourself. Have you ever heard that statement? Ever should in yourself for that? That's a one that one of our people that we want to bring in to talk about five fold ministry.
00;29;35;19 - 00;29;57;00
Unknown
Bruce, That's one that I heard him saying a lot about. Bruce and it's an important talk because so many people end up there because once you make your relationship with God, but what you do, then it's about success or failure. God loves me. If I succeed, God loves who doesn't love me if I don't. And it's it's such a falsification of Christianity.
00;29;57;00 - 00;30;20;06
Unknown
Yeah, that's right. And, you know, we just that's just a part of this. And why, you know, right, right away is to break this down. No, that's not what this verse is about. You can't use that to pistol whip people into doing what you tell them. And yeah, that's right. Well myself a couple of times and, and yeah I think that's one very important.
00;30;20;08 - 00;30;46;16
Unknown
Well and I think another thing to address is how like some of the language that we use when it comes to leadership, when when these become functional leaders and titles is that then they are it's the office of an apostle or the office of a prophet. Now, if people want to use that language, whatever, that's fine. And I'm sure some of the people that we would have come on and talk would probably use some of that language.
00;30;46;19 - 00;31;14;03
Unknown
But again, we're just looking at the lens of the early church. And so they didn't they there there is actually Jerome does in his and he comments on effusions for he does consider them offices like he does he does use that language offices but but in terms of a functional leadership style it was it's not well it's not an office in the sense that you know the the we have apostle so-and-so down the street.
00;31;14;03 - 00;31;44;08
Unknown
That's not how it functionally worked. He's just his it's just a different context. And then so I don't you know, I could take it or leave it in terms of the idea of an office. So the, the distinction that would be made in a contemporary teaching would be that everyone can prophesy, right? Not all are prophets. Yeah. And then there are some people who are prophets, but they're not all in the office of a prophet, and the office of a prophet would be referred to in a Ephesians four level prophet.
00;31;44;10 - 00;32;28;27
Unknown
And that that person, Ephesians four level prophet is going to be speaking to national events. They're going to be influencing governments and kings, they're going to be speaking to the broader church at large. So again, it's all through the lens of function, the office and the thing is with Ephesians four, Ephesians four lays out very clearly what it what it what it sees, what Paul saw as the outworking of these graces being established in the church, that the grace of prophet and it says it starting in first Ephesians four verse 12, the equipping of these graces are poured out for the equipping of the saints, for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the
00;32;28;27 - 00;32;47;12
Unknown
body of Christ. So we come to the unity of the measure, of the knowledge of the Son of God to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature, of the fullness of Christ, no longer being children tossed to and fro, carried about with every window doctrine by the trickery of men and the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, speaking the truth and love that we may all grow up into all things into him.
00;32;47;12 - 00;33;15;26
Unknown
It was at Christ So so and there and it goes on, you know. I know I just ran through that very quickly, but the the whole purpose of the grace being established in the church is the building up of the church and the members of the church. So the context for quote unquote, office of a prophet here has nothing to do with international ministry, has nothing to do with influencing governments and kings has nothing to do with speaking to World War II event worldwide events.
00;33;15;26 - 00;33;43;16
Unknown
It literally says to equip the body for the work of ministry. So so, you know, if we're going to characterize it through, if we're going to call Prophet an office and tie that into Ephesians four, then we should probably see what it's defined as. Its primary function is to equip the church to establish unity in the church and to establish Jesus in the church.
00;33;43;16 - 00;34;14;17
Unknown
And there's a reason why when it comes to prophecy. And so let's just get into this really quick measure. Again, going through the lens of the early church. We were talking about this earlier. So when we look at Ephesians four and again, the lens being early church fathers, well, first actually before looking at that, because what I want to look at is Paul's use of Psalm 6818, that's brilliant.
00;34;14;20 - 00;34;52;02
Unknown
That's really good. I just once again, just because we did it earlier and I had never heard this before, it's quite I want to mention this though, before that because because just on the on the train of a a leadership or an ecclesiastical structure that mark contemporary church tends to pull five fold ministry into than the early church the the apostle on some level became synonymous with the bishop.
00;34;52;05 - 00;35;17;22
Unknown
Yes. And so bishops being the overseer of a region responsible as a father to many priests and responsible for the proper instruction of the priests in good and healthy doctrine, the the bishop and the apostle, the words almost became interchangeable. And and you had like one example would be how Polycarp was referred to in the martyrdom of Polycarp.
00;35;17;25 - 00;35;48;20
Unknown
He's referred to as an apostolic and prophetic teacher. So you have three of them, right? And and a bishop there. And so the bishop was the the quote unquote position, which is what the Bible uses those terms in the New Testament. Right. Bishop, Priest, Deacon Elder. And those are those are the I think Bishop is is it priest mentors or is that priest Anyway, the Greek word means overseer.
00;35;48;23 - 00;36;15;28
Unknown
And so but it is the word bishop. So that's the word that was used in the, in the, in the early church was bishop and they would see apostles kind of taking that place of, you know, the continuing manifestation of that up. There's I've got a quote here somewhere which sums that up by I think it's pseudo Athanasius so it could be.
00;36;15;28 - 00;37;04;22
Unknown
Athanasius That's what that theoretical regard And let's see, let me just see. No, no, no. It's, it's Ambrosia Pastor who was another early church father that apostles are bishops and prophets. He considers interpreters of Scripture, which goes in line with Gregory the Great and who we covered, where he talks about how one function of the gift of prophecy is to reveal a mystery hidden in Scripture and so and then also in terms of leadership, structure and style, technically, and I think it's Jerome who points this out is that the Scriptures don't separate Pastor and teacher.
00;37;04;24 - 00;37;46;03
Unknown
And there's a I'm just looking for a particular quote that that addresses that. I thought I had it sitting right here. I'm sure I can pull it up really quick, though. Yeah, it's Jerome. He says it's supposed that he has a lot of different it's not supposed that he has a lot of different offices to shepherds and teachers, for he does not say some shepherds, some teachers, but some shepherds and teacher teachers, meaning that he who is a shepherd, should at the same time be a teacher.
00;37;46;06 - 00;38;07;27
Unknown
And so not one in the church. Even a saintly person should take himself to the name of Shepherd, unless you can teach those whom he feeds so that so the because he goes some some in the context of Ephesians four right. Is that each one is a grace. So some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers.
00;38;07;27 - 00;38;24;00
Unknown
So the grace so so Jerome In the sense of if we're going to use the five fold language, Jerome would have called it four fold. He would say there's a grace that exists for pastors and teachers. It's the same grace because a pastor needs to be able to teach and a teacher needs to be able to shepherd.
00;38;24;02 - 00;38;50;29
Unknown
So so even even there, we're starting to see some fumbling of the five fold system as a leadership governance thing. Yes, right. But well, let's but let's dive in to what I find kind of really to be the crux of the matter when it comes to Ephesians four and the five fold narrative, because it becomes vital narrative becomes center stage.
00;38;50;29 - 00;39;35;14
Unknown
You know, we even even have people that are convinced that this is the the what was it in the seventies? In the eighties, the prophet was restored in the forties and fifties and sixties. Evangelist was restored in the nineties into the 2000s, the apostles being restored. Right. And the thing is that I understand why people see that because of the emphasis, but I always find it to be a very narrow subset of the church that that is applicable to and, and there's always some really favorable interpretation to how we see those things happening, just because I think in a way it's because people got tired of evangelists and so they were like, well, this all
00;39;35;14 - 00;39;57;11
Unknown
prophesy and they got tired of prophets screwed everything up. So it's like, well, now it's about apostles. Yeah, I don't know if I would so much see it as God restoring something because I don't think the church ever lost it. But I think, you know, if you're if you characterize it through the Protestant church, that there's a lot that became divided over the Protestant Reformation.
00;39;57;11 - 00;40;40;11
Unknown
And so, yeah, I think we might still be seeing the outworking of some of that today. And that's why we're all thinking my Mennonite church, a lot of times apostles in some regard would have been considered missionaries. yeah, yeah, yeah. And that and that. So there's another actually, before we even get to that, that let me let me just mention this because there's a there's kind of a, a popular teaching going around and I've heard this from a few different people where the word apostle Apostolos meaning sent one was actually a Roman term that that had to do with a function within the army, that when a people were conquered they would leave an
00;40;40;11 - 00;41;26;14
Unknown
apostle and not a would. You've heard this before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the apostle would be there in place to Roman denies the the area of that area. Yeah. And, and it's a it's a you know, it's a wonderful idea. I just I've tried to find evidence of that and so if someone's listening it has come across actual Roman texts that talk about that or I've never found an early church father once referenced that and I've never seen a Roman text and I've looked right now, it doesn't mean I have every resource under the sun, so some people may be able to bring that up.
00;41;26;16 - 00;41;48;17
Unknown
So that's an appeal to our listeners. If you've got a reference that says that was that was an ancient world reference that can directly relate to that because that's then saying, well, then apostles have, because the idea then is that apostles are heavenly ambassadors with a mandate from heaven to establish heaven on earth. And then and so they have a vision.
00;41;48;19 - 00;42;06;26
Unknown
And so then the same way that Romans commissioned a person to establish the Roman rule in that area, the Apostles are commissioned by having to establish heavenly rule in that area. And I, you know, it's a great idea, but I just I can't find the connecting point there. So if someone has it, great, please share it with us.
00;42;06;29 - 00;42;45;00
Unknown
Yeah, I've tried to find it. I haven't been able to. So it's a it's an interesting idea, but it's not there. But I haven't been able to find it there. When, when you look at the apostolic thing to do, when you're looking at, say, the the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, Isaiah is actually called an apostle that the the prophet Isaiah is called an apostle in Isaiah six when he says who shall I send the gospel word apostle, Whom shall I apostle.
00;42;45;02 - 00;43;09;12
Unknown
So Isaiah has a prophetic message as an apostle to the nation, Isaiah doesn't build anything in the sense like Jeremiah is called the builder, right? He's the one who helps. There's he's you're going to build up and you're going to establish this in Jeremiah one. But Isaiah is not called to build anything. He's he's called to call out the hard heartedness of the people.
00;43;09;12 - 00;43;38;03
Unknown
So he's got a prophetic message as an apostle being sent to the nation. So so again, that kind of puts another wrinkle on it that that that Isaiah as a prophet is called an apostle. Also same word in the Greek Old Testament as in the New Testament. So anyway that should give people food for thought. So let's look at this Psalm 68, eight six, 918 that because I find this to be really fascinating.
00;43;38;03 - 00;43;59;15
Unknown
So just starting at four seven, okay, because this is where we kind of start off with the the five fold ministry thing. It says this is a Ephesians four, but to each one of us, Grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore, he says when he ascended on high, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men.
00;43;59;16 - 00;44;18;12
Unknown
Now, verse nine, we're going to deal with that in a second. Now this he ascended. What does it mean? But that he also first descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is also the one who ascended far all the heavens that he might fill all things. And he himself gave some to the apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers.
00;44;18;12 - 00;44;40;22
Unknown
So that's the that's the verse. And and that's the only place where we have a compilation of the five fold in a in a direct reference. Right. So we don't see it all throughout the, the New Testament. There's a few different references. Maybe First Corinthians 12 talks about apostles and prophets and mentions a few others. But in terms of a direct here it is only place it's laid out.
00;44;40;24 - 00;45;08;05
Unknown
So Paul quotes Psalm 6818. That's verse eight. When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men. And and then Paul says he's he's he's commenting on Psalm 6818 and most of your study Bibles will have it in parentheses because it's it's purportedly Paul commenting on what Psalm 6818 means. Now this he ascended so he's referring to when he ascended on high.
00;45;08;08 - 00;45;33;18
Unknown
What does it mean by that? He also first descended. So that's Jesus coming from the the throne of the father, right? He descended. This is Philippians two. He emptied himself and took on the form of a servant. He descended. This is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens. So he's looking at Jesus. If he ascended and gave gifts to men, then he also has to have descended before he ascended.
00;45;33;18 - 00;45;56;00
Unknown
Right? So to ascend, you have to descend first. So he's saying he's the one who descended from heaven and ascended back to heaven. And so he's referring to the the literal ascension. Ascension here, right? He's referring to the them Seeing Jesus ascend to the Father have not yet gone to be with my father says to Mary in the garden.
00;45;56;02 - 00;46;15;20
Unknown
And then hangs out with the apostles. And then in the beginning of acts they see him ascend, right? So he's referring to the ascension. So he ascended and gave gifts to men. So that's practical, right? He ascended and the gifts that he gave were grace that was given to us, which is what he says. And in 72, each one of us grace was given.
00;46;15;22 - 00;46;34;06
Unknown
So according to the measure of Christ's gift and the and so the functional timeline for that is the ascent at the ascension. He gave these gifts and these are the things that he gave he gave some grace. You give grace for some to be apostle, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, some to be pastors and teachers.
00;46;34;08 - 00;47;06;15
Unknown
Okay. So that's the context there. So he sends and he gives. Okay. So what is fascinating about this myrrh, if you turn with me in your Bible to Psalm 6818, it's always an interesting thing to quote the original verse. Okay, so let's just look there we look at and if you're listening along, do it with me, because this is one of those things that will shock you, I think, and shocked me enough that I have basically memorized the location of this verse.
00;47;06;17 - 00;47;30;03
Unknown
Okay. So Paul quoting this, bringing it in as proof of the ministry of Jesus, the ascension of Jesus, because you got to you have to remember, we'll get to that in a second. Psalm 6818 says this You have ascended on high. Okay, There we go. He ascended. You've led captivity captive, right? That's same thing he says there he led captivity captive.
00;47;30;05 - 00;47;52;22
Unknown
You have received gifts among men. Okay. Well, that sounds different, doesn't it? So when Paul says it, he says and gave gifts to men. When the psalmist writes it as a prophetic thing, he says he received gifts among men. So which is it? Because Paul changes it? It's like it's like I want to say the audacity of Paul.
00;47;52;24 - 00;48;22;27
Unknown
Right? Why is it you can do that? Yeah. The apostles get to change the Bible, right? And and so why, why? And this is this is something that the early church fathers actually wrestled with. Why did Paul change it from received to gave And and when you when you look at this Paul okay Paul's been working through in Ephesians one, two and three the Ministry of Jesus and what Jesus has accomplished and what we're seeing on the face of the Earth.
00;48;22;29 - 00;49;00;28
Unknown
And now he's saying, we know he ascended right, We know he ascended. This is we know he ascended it. Well, let's just get to this. Okay. I want to read you a quote from let's see from somewhere there from Jerome. He says this Let me see. Yeah. Jerome in his epistle to the Ephesians, why this difference he's specifically referring to from 1618.
00;49;00;28 - 00;49;31;14
Unknown
So just reading the quote, why this difference since in the Psalm the act had not yet occurred but was promised in the future, the phrase was accordingly he received. And so these are the Psalms talking about he received because he's talking about an act in the future. Well, I'm interesting, but the Apostle is seeing this as a promise earlier, given and later fulfilled at the time of this writing, Christ had already made the gift and churches have been established throughout the whole world.
00;49;31;16 - 00;49;57;17
Unknown
Accordingly, he is said to have given to humanity rather than received gifts among humanity. So Paul's looking back at what Jesus did and saying He gave gifts the Saul Moses looking forward to Jesus and saying he received gifts. Why says this, Athanasius? Athanasius says this. So we're building a whole case, right? This is not just one your father saying so, Jerome.
00;49;57;19 - 00;50;24;18
Unknown
Anyway, Athanasius The word was not in need and did not come into being, nor were humans able to give these gifts to themselves. So the word is basically saying the word Jesus had no need, never came into being right. There's the never there's never a time when Jesus, as the word did not exist. And in John one, obviously, John says in the beginning was the word and the word was with God.
00;50;24;18 - 00;50;50;14
Unknown
So we have God with God and God being in the Word in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God. The word was means to exist. So in the beginning existed. The word and the word existed as God with God, so God with God. So we already have at least a duality here in the Godhead, right?
00;50;50;16 - 00;51;12;29
Unknown
So God with God. So the the word always existed and had no need for anything. So never came into being. And humans weren't able to give themselves gifts in terms of spiritual gifts. Right. So he goes this, but through the word they've been given to us for these reasons. They were given to us after being given to him for his purpose in becoming a man.
00;51;12;29 - 00;51;34;00
Unknown
Was that having been given to him, they might be passed on to us. So this is Athanasius and Jerome working out this passage, right? The passage being that Jesus received gifts while among men as a human in order that in his divinity, because he had no need for the gifts, because he's fully divine. But as a human, he receives them.
00;51;34;00 - 00;52;00;02
Unknown
And the reception of those things, by the way, is the incarnation. The reception is the divine assuming human form. So as soon as the divine assumes human form in the in the womb of Mary, the gifts are there because the gifts are with the divine right. So then he gives gifts. According to Paul. But after he received the gifts as a human and he gives the gifts in the context of the leading captivity captive, that's human.
00;52;00;02 - 00;52;21;19
Unknown
He's captured humanity back, leading humanity back to the father, back to the place of divine Sonship, and in the context of leading humanity back to Divine Sonship. He's given them the gifts that he received as a human. So that's the solemn 1618 thing. So then the gifts, the graces that were given our apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher, right.
00;52;21;22 - 00;52;47;27
Unknown
So, so Paul saying we know he ascended and we know this verse speaks about him because these things are active within the body today. So Paul's using the what we call five fold ministry as proof of the ascension of Jesus and the divinity of Jesus is in because we see these things active in the church today apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors, teachers, the grace has been given.
00;52;47;27 - 00;53;13;01
Unknown
Psalm 6818 has been fulfilled, and we see this in Jesus when he ascended. So if they didn't exist today, they would we would we would look at and say, Well, Jesus was just a man then, because he never could give gifts, but because he gave gifts. We know he's divine, He's ascended, is with the father. So. So Paul's not going, Hey, guys, we all need to figure out who the apostles are, who the prophets are, and who the evangelists and who the pastors and teachers are.
00;53;13;01 - 00;53;44;23
Unknown
Or Hey, guys, this is the church leadership model for all times. He's going, Hey, we see these graces operational in our midst, and they're telling us that Jesus has given them to us and he's with the Father. Some 6018 shows us that. So the gifts are proof of his ascension. And so as such, the gifts always point back to him, which Paul's very clear that the outworking of the gift is that we'd come to the measure in the stature, the fullness of Christ, because the gifts are received by him because they're all divine.
00;53;44;23 - 00;54;10;20
Unknown
You can't have a gift. The gift only exists within God. The capacity of man to reflect God is basically what a spiritual gift is. And so now Jesus gives them to us and they reflect Him so that within that context, every gift, especially as it pertains to the ones listed out here, whether you want to call it five fold or whatever, just spiritual gifts, whatever every gift is to back to Jesus.
00;54;10;20 - 00;54;30;12
Unknown
And so, you know, you're. Murray you brought up the example of people that go, well, you have to listen to me. And I'm a I'm an apostle, right? I have authority. Well, the point of apostle was to point to Jesus Jesus. Isaiah 42 tells us about Jesus as he never cried out aloud, never demanded that his voice be heard.
00;54;30;15 - 00;55;08;09
Unknown
Wow. Yeah. Everybody listen to him. So if an apostle supposed to reflect Jesus, that apostle should have the characteristic of Jesus, because that's the whole point, is that these things are aspects of Jesus and point back to him. So if an apostle needs to demand to be heard, I would make the contention that he's not an apostle. If a prophet has to demand to be heard, I would make the contention that there may be a promise in the sense of a call, but to be actually realized requires the pointing back to the nature of Jesus, which is in the lifestyle, which is exactly what we see the early church talking about is prophetic ministry is
00;55;08;09 - 00;55;45;12
Unknown
seen in the Lifestyle Apostolic Ministry as seen in the lifestyle. Why? Because they're all reflections of Jesus. That's what Ephesians four tells us. So five fold ministry as such is a manifestation of the nature of Jesus and, and, and meaning that the characteristic of the person who's walking in the grace is always pointing people back to Jesus. So that's how the early church saw this passage as proof that he's ascended and that the outworking was what we would look like Jesus and point people back to Jesus.
00;55;45;15 - 00;56;06;05
Unknown
And, you know, it's just a couple of things with that. I'm going to I'm going to just throw in this crazy story and I don't think I've shared it before, but I think one of the things that we get caught on here, this whole apostle prophet thing then where we think that that the gifting show's relationship with God, right.
00;56;06;07 - 00;56;23;06
Unknown
It show what Christ did and it tells tells us what Christ did, which is exactly what you're saying. But sometimes I think where we go by mistake because we don't understand all of this and I'm going to go listen to this again because it's it's it's such a I'll write a book on that. I'm writing a book that includes this.
00;56;23;06 - 00;56;46;05
Unknown
So I'm going to buy that book eventually. You'll buy the book? Yeah. You better believe it or I'll get it for free. well, what the. Okay, let me hear an example. Maybe that would be the best, because we think the guy's got a gift. He's got a calling, he's got a gift, he's got the calling, therefore he's intimate with God, therefore he's got gift and calling you.
00;56;46;05 - 00;57;02;08
Unknown
Then I'm with God if I serve him, therefore, I'm intimate with God, you know, And we make all these leaps of logic because because we're looking at the gift rather than the gift pointing to Christ. So, you know, and I remember Bill Johnson saying, God's on you for others in you, for you. All right, you want to bring that down.
00;57;02;16 - 00;57;33;03
Unknown
But they talk about Aylett, you know, Allen was a big fifties revivalist, you know, with Oral Roberts and, you know, all these big guys. Right, Right. And so I don't want to be part of the latter reign, I think all healing revival movement, right? Yeah, yeah. You know you know, you can read this yourself. So the story goes Allen is is I don't he's in the parking lot of meetings coming up and there's this demonized guy trying to get his hands around his throat and there's these six guys pinning this demonized guy to the ground.
00;57;33;03 - 00;57;51;21
Unknown
And Allen is there and he's leaning on this car while this demonized guy throws these six guys off charges. ALLEN And almost has his hands around his throat when Allen goes in the name of Jesus come out and the guy is delivered while the six guys pulling themselves off the ground go. Why didn't you do that sooner? Yeah.
00;57;51;21 - 00;58;09;23
Unknown
And he goes, Well, I had a vision of this very thing last night, but in the vision the car was orange and reality. It's black. And I was sitting here wondering why that was when the sun began to set and the light glinted off the car and it turned turned orange. And I knew I had the anointing. Right?
00;58;09;25 - 00;58;27;14
Unknown
Well, what you don't know is that Allen ended his ministry drunk. Right? Like with a with a prostitute on each arm. And he'd go to his meetings to minister and they try to keep him off the stage and he would slur his words one time on the stage. The anointing will come and he'd put his way on stage.
00;58;27;14 - 00;59;01;10
Unknown
The presence of God would come and people would be healed and delivered. He'd leave with the prostitutes. Well, how is that possible? Because the gifts point to Jesus. They don't point to your character, Right. And just to put that in a nice little nutshell, where we're making a very big mistake there and we wonder how can all these ministers that we're looking at that are known as apostles and prophets keep crashing and falling all the time because we're looking at their gifting, thinking it's telling us about their character when it's pointing to what Christ did on the cross.
00;59;01;13 - 00;59;37;09
Unknown
And they still have to work out their salvation with fear and trembling, just like everyone else does. Right? So, you know, I'm just I'm just thinking about about Paul and Paul's language about himself as because he he refers to himself as an apostle, right? He's yeah, Yeah. And where's the passage where he says you have many fathers or you have many teachers, but not many fathers.
00;59;37;11 - 01;00;11;03
Unknown
Yeah. First Corinthians four and, and so just, just looking at Paul's language right, looking at first Corinthians three and four and I just, I just want, you know, given that I love that, let's just look at Paul and his view of his apostle ship first characterized in first Corinthians and then characterized in Romans 16. So Paul talks about how, you know, there's strife in Ephesians, in first Corinthians three, there's strife among the people.
01;00;11;06 - 01;00;41;00
Unknown
Some people are saying, I'm a Paul, I'm of Apollos. You know, I've I'm of Jesus, right? I'm a pacifist. I love the ones that go, well, you're of Paul, you're of Apollos, you're of Peter. I'm of Jesus. Right. I love that person. That sounds like the most pretentious one of them all. And and then he talks about how, you know, we're we've all been we've been building you as wise master builders.
01;00;41;00 - 01;01;01;25
Unknown
And I wanted to come to you with more to tell, but you guys have all been kind of arguing back and forth and so I couldn't come to you as deeply spiritual people had to come you as infants and Christ because of your arguments and your divisions. And so this is all the context. Right? And, you know, we one man planted one man.
01;01;01;25 - 01;01;25;03
Unknown
WATERS God gives the increase. So I've laid the foundation, another builds on it. I'm a wise master builder, blah, blah, blah. Right? That's the whole context of Ephesians three. And then in Ephesians four is when he talks about we're all servants of Christ, we've been given this mystery. He goes in there and he says, I don't write these things to shame you like, like this.
01;01;25;03 - 01;01;43;26
Unknown
All this context of calling out their judgmental ism and their division. I don't write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children, I warn you, for those you have 10,000 structures in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers for in Christ Jesus, I begotten you through the Gospel. So Paul's talking about his like you think you see the tenderness of the father there, right?
01;01;43;26 - 01;02;00;20
Unknown
Of him as a father to them. So Paul had no problem referring to himself as a father. By the way, I know it's people who get all up in arms when we call. I have a my Anglican priest friend, father call him. You know when people call a priest, Father Well, Jesus said, don't call any man. Father Well, Paul told all of them to call him a father.
01;02;00;20 - 01;02;23;13
Unknown
So for day his father. So I think you have to rethink that. So anyway, so, Paul, you're my beloved children. I've. I've forgotten you in Christ. I'm a father to you. So this isn't saying that you need more fathers. It's saying you need to recognize the role of people in your life and respond accordingly. I'm not trying to shame you, but I'm trying to help you grow.
01;02;23;15 - 01;02;42;27
Unknown
Right? You see the tenderness of Paul there. And Paul later refers to himself in the context of in first Corinthians nine, Am I? He says this Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not sinned? Jesus Christ, our Lord, Are you not my work in the Lord? If I'm not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you, for you are my seal of my apostle ship in the Lord.
01;02;42;27 - 01;03;06;05
Unknown
And so Paul connects is you're you're my seal of a Paul. Your proof of my apostle ship because you were brought into the kingdom through me and and so so he connects his apostle ship to his fathering. Okay He doesn't think of his apostle ship as different than his fathering. So I'm your father? Yeah, very nice father. So to Paul, the role of an apostle was you.
01;03;06;12 - 01;03;30;09
Unknown
You can't disconnect it from the role of a father. So an apostle is not a dynamic leader who wields authority. An apostle is a father who brings people to Jesus because they've seen Jesus. Great. And then you see how he thought of like, just like we could just look at Romans 16, how he how Paul thought of the Romans 16 years later in his ministry.
01;03;30;09 - 01;03;53;24
Unknown
Right. So, Paul, as a father talks of his people this way. Just just just listen to this. This is Romans 16. I commend starting verse one. I commend to you, Phoebe, our sister, who was a servant of the church and can trio if that's how you say that receiver in the Lord and Emmanuel men are worthy of the saints and a sister and whatever business she has need of you for.
01;03;53;24 - 01;04;15;05
Unknown
Indeed she's been a helper of many and of myself. Also, think of the tender affection she has for Phoebe in the way he talks about her great Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ, who risked their own necks for my life, to whom I not only give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. So, man, I really care about these people because of their sacrifice on my behalf.
01;04;15;07 - 01;04;30;23
Unknown
Greet my beloved epigenetics. Who is the first fruits of a care to Christ we don't know anything about up at us except for in a cave. He was one of the first people that Paul led to Jesus. Right. So. And he's the beloved of Paul, my beloved. That's all he talks about up in it is this I love up in that us.
01;04;30;23 - 01;04;56;00
Unknown
Because the only thing we know is that he was beloved to Paul, the great Mary who labored much for a St Andronicus and Junior, my countrymen and fellow prisoners who are of note among the apostles who also were in Christ before me. Just think of the tenderness that he's carrying for these people right in his language. Greet impious, my beloved in the Lord, another one that I really like because he's just all we know is his beloved of Paul or Bernice or fellow worker in Christ.
01;04;56;00 - 01;05;25;17
Unknown
And Steak is my beloved greet a palace approved in Christ greet those are in the household of Aristo bullies Greet Herodian my countrymen greet those who are of the household of narcissists who are in the Lord. So all I'm saying is look at the way he talks about these people and you can see looking at first Corinthians three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and that whole narrative there where he's correcting them and going, I'm a father as a father, I'm as an I'm a father.
01;05;25;24 - 01;05;43;15
Unknown
And then as a father, I have a tender affection for these people, my beloved up. And that is my beloved. Amelia's great. Phoebe, she she was with me. Greet Priscilla in Aquila. They stuck their necks out for me. These people I have a tender affection for. So what does it say about Junior? There? Read that party game. Yeah.
01;05;43;16 - 01;06;09;07
Unknown
Great Great. Great. Andronicus in Junior, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners who are of note among the apostles and who are not among the apostles. Yeah, Who? And so was a woman. Yeah, that's right. And so that. That you thinking they have to be all men? That's right. Because there's there is there is. I'm on the I'm on the the page of women apostles.
01;06;10;25 - 01;06;31;08
Unknown
and, and I've got some it's like not just like women empowerment right. I'm not just talking about that. I'm just if you look at the early church, I think I think you can still find maybe the King James Bible has junior Junius because he got sometimes translated that way. Yeah, I'm gay. Male male, actually, Actually just as maybe we'll have to do.
01;06;31;08 - 01;06;56;13
Unknown
I don't want to get too into the weeds with this, but when Paul's speaking to Timothy and the the King James Butcher's, the translation of the first Timothy three, if this is a faithful saying, if a man desires, the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. Right. Okay. This is just a title. This is You just got us into the weeds.
01;06;56;13 - 01;07;21;13
Unknown
So this is your story because of what you just said. I'm just going to throw this out there for people. Okay? Look it up yourself. This is a true saying. If the word for if a man desires the office of a bishop is it's gender neutral. It's just if a person, if anyone that's that. It doesn't it's not it's not the word man.
01;07;21;16 - 01;07;48;02
Unknown
It's the word anyone. Okay. So it's gender neutral, all right? And and if a man or if anyone desires the office of a bishop, you want to know the other thing about this word? Office of a bishop episcopate. It is in the feminine in gender. really? Yes. So if anyone desires the office of a bishop, that word is female bishop.
01;07;48;04 - 01;08;12;12
Unknown
It's a it is a it's a it's episcopate. It is the feminine form of episcopate. And then in verse two, he said a bishop then must be blameless. The husband of one father, when he says that it's the gender male word for bishop. Whoa, isn't that weird? Who starts off with any one gender neutral then says Desire's the office of a bishop, which is gender feminine.
01;08;12;18 - 01;08;32;02
Unknown
And then when he talks about a husband, he talks about as a husband of one wife all the qualifications. Then he talks about the gendered form of the word is the male interest. And so then he lays up, lays out qualifications for men and women. He talks about widows, he talks about the women and how they should be.
01;08;32;10 - 01;08;59;21
Unknown
So anyway, you know, you got to rethink some of these things and why he why that's all that way. So that's that's a side note. And the you can see you know, in our what we'll just get into the weeds with this so yeah I'll just leave it at that. That's fine. I'll leave it at that. We're looking at it and it's you know, maybe it's germane to apostolic ministry because we're talking about Junior.
01;08;59;23 - 01;09;28;17
Unknown
But Junior was considered among the Apostle and I. I just thought that it's important again, we have all these preconceptions of what this word means. Yes. And here, Paul, here. Here's an example of Paul throwing it out. Just throwing it out about this. Go look. And so I don't really have a problem with, you know, anybody the way they want to interpret or apply, quote unquote, five fold ministry, right offices, whatever.
01;09;28;17 - 01;09;50;16
Unknown
You know, people can call themselves apostle, whatever, if they want to do that. And I don't looking at it through the lens of the early church, they don't see them doing that. They largely looked at the office of or the role of a bishop as an apostle. And then, you know, practically the ground there were traveling prophets who would visit churches and encourage and instruct.
01;09;50;16 - 01;10;17;02
Unknown
And then you had as as time went on, you had a bit of a clash between the prophetic people on the teacher people. And you see that between the shepherd of Hermes in the second century and then hippolytus his on the apostolic tradition where Hippolytus is emphasizing the role of a teacher because he's going what's what's important is right doctrine and instruction.
01;10;17;05 - 01;10;40;13
Unknown
And Hermes is emphasizing the role of prophet and juxtaposing it over and against the role of a teacher. When he sees the false prophet sitting, essentially sitting in the chair of the Roman teacher in the in the imagery that he shares. So So you had a you had a bit of a clash going on between it's almost we might characterize it today as the difference in word and spirit people.
01;10;40;13 - 01;10;59;13
Unknown
I don't know that that's quite fair, but people it can be helpful to see it delineated through that. But Hippolytus doesn't say prophecy is not for today. He says teaching is more important. And then he says if someone has a gift of revelation or a gift of healing, then by the gift they'll prove whether the gift is actually from God.
01;10;59;13 - 01;11;22;21
Unknown
So. So he gives some instruction there. And so, you know, I echo that too, because, you know, one of the things that I think I discovered very, very early on that that, you know, you're in a church that doesn't have a particular thing in your gift makes you need to go find someone who carries that and bring them into your church to impart it.
01;11;22;21 - 01;11;45;14
Unknown
You really do. And, you know, that's one reason, again, Josh and I do what we do. We don't have any problem with that at all, but it needs to be done. It Yeah. It's Grace is given to the body to equip the church. Absolutely. So these roles are super important, but they're not about your identity or your right to bully other people right out of title.
01;11;45;20 - 01;12;09;11
Unknown
Not all the culture which. Yeah. And so you saw those you saw those those roles actively functional within the context of early. And you know you would think you know I remember with John Wimmer they asked him, do you call yourself an apostle? He said, no, that that's not something you can say yourself. It's something other people say about you.
01;12;09;11 - 01;12;32;00
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I think there is a totally and there's there's almost a well we didn't and today you know like your, your your statement earlier that I think you said it was Rick Joyner said you can barely get through a general rockin or getting an apostle. Yeah. It's like, it's like we weren't important enough when we called ourselves prophets.
01;12;32;00 - 01;12;47;16
Unknown
And so we need to get even more important and call ourselves apostles and. John Paul used to say he he refused to refer to himself as a prophet. Lots of people call him a prophet, but is it as soon as you call me a prophet, then what happens if God wants to do something new and increase the increase?
01;12;47;16 - 01;13;12;13
Unknown
What prophetic ministry looks like now you're going to have to start adding superlatives to the word prophet. Now, I'm an international prophet. Yes, that's right. And so so you just have to start adding things to it. And now eventually we're like, we're not even prophets anymore. We're apostles. And I think I suspect actually what what's happened with that is I've been reading this book on and off.
01;13;12;15 - 01;13;39;29
Unknown
Great, great book about has to do with theology, not in the direct sense. Anyway, actually, I saw an interview with Jordan Peterson in this guy a while back, and so I picked the book up. Ian Gilchrist This book here, I'm Sean Murray. On the video, the master and his emissary, John, it's how the brain works in me. Gilchrist is a neurologist and the master and his emissary are the two hemispheres of the brain.
01;13;39;29 - 01;14;08;03
Unknown
And so in me, Gilchrist is kind of exploding how the the right and left brain popular notion is mythology and going into the way it actually works. And so one of the things he talks about is and this Emery you're just going to laugh at this and what's Murray showing me? Apostolic We led and prophetically influenced. Yes, that's somebody little in there.
01;14;08;03 - 01;14;38;14
Unknown
That's what they who they are. Yeah, that's right. You know, we get this, but we get these kind of messages all the time on social media. I'm apostle so and so I'm prophet. So no, it's really popular. So but regarding that go you know I started out as a prophet Benjamin I'm an apostle, right? So in the master and his emissary I just couldn't help but laugh at this in the master and his emissary there are he talks about the brain, the function of the brain, and he use the example of a sparrow in Central Park in New York.
01;14;38;17 - 01;15;16;06
Unknown
Okay, So a sparrow has two and right and left hemispheres are a fact of creation. Like almost every functioning brain in a animal has them, right? So a sparrow, in order to plot its course to pick up a piece of bread that's dropped on the ground. Right. Has to be hyper focused on that bread. Okay. So that there is one of the hemispheres is totally active when it comes to the hyperfocus right now and then and that's the pharaoh with the sparrow Pharaoh.
01;15;16;08 - 01;15;41;14
Unknown
So I read too much Bible. The sparrow has to also be able to pay attention to its surroundings to plot and notice any obstacles in its path, any danger in its path, anything like that. So it it has to be able to focus in a narrow way on the bread to plot the path. But it has to be able to see the bigger picture to be able to account for any dangers or obstacles that might present itself.
01;15;41;14 - 01;16;02;26
Unknown
Right. So one part of the brain tends to operate on the narrow focus and the other part of the brain. One hemisphere of the brain tends to operate on the broader focus. And so that's the master and his emissary. And he's saying, so his point is Western society has built itself on the narrow focus and missed the bigger focus.
01;16;02;28 - 01;16;29;28
Unknown
And so anyway, you have to go through the whole book. But I couldn't help but think about prophetic people because one facet of of the ability to prophesy is the ability to be hyper focused, narrowly because everything else bleeds away when you're in the moment of prophecy, right? It's like I think it's it is absolutely a facet of the makeup of a prophetic person's brain to be able to be focused without distraction.
01;16;29;28 - 01;16;51;29
Unknown
One track mind, we might call it, you know, in our in our culture. And so you prophesy and it's like a mirror. You could attest to this. It's like the rest of the world fades away when you're prophesied. Right. And and like when you snap out of it, you're like, that's right. Other people exist, you know. And and I think most prophetic people could could agree with that.
01;16;52;02 - 01;17;22;28
Unknown
And so it seems to me that a a making a few logical leaps because I haven't done a brain scan on someone prophesying though that would be interesting. It seems to me that the part of your brain that is responsible for narrow focus is probably on overdrive when you're prophesying. Yeah, I would. I would guess that a lot of prophetic people, the part of the brain, this ability to focus narrowly is really well developed, probably at the expense of their ability to see the bigger picture.
01;17;23;01 - 01;17;45;22
Unknown
And so then, you know, they start growing and maturing. They go through a couple of shake ups and they start seeing a bigger picture and that part of their brain starts to develop where they see the surroundings. They account for the various different factors and they start seeing the errors, the warnings that the, you know, the problems and all of that.
01;17;45;24 - 01;18;11;02
Unknown
And they go, I see the bigger picture now. I must be an apostle when it's really they've just grown. And the part of their brain that was underdeveloped is now developed. And so a prophet goes, I'm an apostle because I see a bigger picture, but has as the the functional call or grace shifted at all, or have you just grown up a little bit and all smart.
01;18;11;02 - 01;18;35;17
Unknown
And so I wonder, you know, I ponder through those things and so I, I, I think when it comes to the, the Ephesians four thing, five fold thing that we have to take into account kind of all the stuff that we've talked through. And as I was trying to say that we earlier and then I interrupted myself by having another thought.
01;18;35;19 - 01;18;58;05
Unknown
Yeah. Is I don't I if you, if someone wants to go well we're our church has a five fold ministry dynamic and that's all our leadership are. We have a prophet on staff, an apostle on staff and evangelist on staff, pastor and a teacher on staff. And that's that's what we call them. And I'm apostle so and so and I'm prophet so and so that's that's whatever, you know, whatever floats your boat, that's fine.
01;18;58;05 - 01;19;23;26
Unknown
I'm just saying I don't think the early church did that. But if you want to do that, that's fine. I think what we can say firmly is that if you want to do that, prove it by your character, prove it by your lifestyle. Be tender and affectionate and show people what Jesus looks like. And if you want to characterize your ministry model that way, or your church leadership model that way, that's fine.
01;19;23;28 - 01;19;44;11
Unknown
But what makes it real is that it looks like Jesus. What makes it real is not that you've implemented it. What makes it real is it points people back to the maturity of Christ, the tenderness, his affection and the way that he walked when he was on Earth. And so if you're apostle, whatever, to the nations, do it as a father and.
01;19;44;11 - 01;20;06;01
Unknown
Do it in a way that's tenderly affectionate to the people that you lead. Like you see Paul in Romans 16 commending the people that he walks with and calling them his beloved and and and actually mean that, you know, not just they're my beloved because they do things for me, my beloved and my beloved is nothing else, just my beloved Amelia's.
01;20;06;03 - 01;20;26;13
Unknown
Yeah. Not that some of them did stuff for him, right? I. Phoebe or Aquila. Priscilla. Nicola, by the way, he names the woman first, which is of note. But actually you're still in Aquila. And, you know, they stuck their necks out for me. But Amelia's and Epping Ennis didn't do anything for me and I'm still call them beloved.
01;20;26;15 - 01;20;48;26
Unknown
So. So that needs to be the tenor of what's expected for anybody in your quote unquote offices, if that's your ministry model. But don't try and pretend like that ministry model is the de facto way is the only way, and it's what God is restoring today, because the early church understood it and had a way of thinking through it that was implementing it.
01;20;48;26 - 01;21;11;20
Unknown
The bishops are apostles. We have traveling prophets. We have teachers like you've got it there. Yeah. And it's not like it was lost and somehow they forgot that Ephesians four existed and now there's something being restored. It it was proof to the early church that Jesus ascended. The point of Ephesians four is not ministry model gifts and positions.
01;21;11;21 - 01;21;43;28
Unknown
The point is Jesus is being witness to in all the stuff that's happening on the ground and we know he's the son of God because of it, because we couldn't do this stuff if it wasn't for him. That's what Paul saying in official for. So really. So that's how I see that. And like I said, I, i, i, I, I kind of wrestle with seeing any, any particular group trying to go here's five fold ministry is supposed to look like this.
01;21;44;01 - 01;22;11;05
Unknown
And, you know, when I look through the lens of what we just laid out, I go, I don't know. I'm not sure that I see it. It just like Amway Pyramid. Pyramid scheme. Right. Exactly. Yeah. I think I would see particular people and go, you know, they would I, you know, one of our dear friends would never that we would see is apostolic would never even refer to himself that way and not even see himself way.
01;22;11;05 - 01;22;50;20
Unknown
Right. And and if you said it he be a bit embarrassed that you said it. You know it's probably it's absolutely Yeah. And and and I think that's the greatest looks like that just makes us even more so go Yeah that's you're probably walking in that so yeah. Anything to add Mary. No, I mean I'm just thinking about what you said about when you were in India and that we need to talk about that yet and, and a couple of people to interview and I, you know, it's just such a good points you made here on passage It's it's quite telling you know I wish I would have heard this back in the nineties to
01;22;50;20 - 01;23;17;14
Unknown
be honest with you was 1018 I think I was ten or 11 maybe. I was born in 81. So, you know, with the same things with Lego blocks, I would have said, Yeah, that's right. I was not at that point like 12 year old Jesus. Astounding with 13. Yes. Yes. Well, I know there's always lots more we could say about it.
01;23;17;14 - 01;23;36;21
Unknown
And, and but at some point we have to call it to a close. So, you know, there's only so much we can we can go on. So go ahead. No, I was just going to say here, I'll have to trim this little bit off. Right. I would imagine. Right. And then we'll have to do an actual close here.
01;23;36;23 - 01;24;01;13
Unknown
But yeah, you know, I wonder if I wouldn't if you could drag Steve on. Now, you don't want to be bringing your gear with you to to the Fraser Valley. But sure. Yeah, it would be it would be good to be good to talk to Steve this, you know, in particular because he's, you know, having the calling, he, he's really in this culture, you know, the people he's ministering to are these people.
01;24;01;15 - 01;24;23;00
Unknown
And and, you know, it's it just it gets because they just get so weird, you know? I mean, me and Steve went to this meeting in and you could ask him about it in theory and jump out at me fun was there not John Paul Jackson John Sanford son who know he wrote a couple good books on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01;24;23;03 - 01;24;43;00
Unknown
He's a prophet. And the head of their organization, Who's the Apostle, is there. And we walk in and they're talking about how the Chinese are going to invade America and they're going to make a beachhead in California. And and and they both look at each other again and go, I Guess we're not being invited to Bethel. And we're like, I was like,
01;24;43;02 - 01;25;05;20
Unknown
And then the pastor goes, You know, I don't know what to say about this. I'm just the pastor. I don't know. And I'm like, Wow, that is probably the wisest man in the room. But I think, yeah, that's right. You know, John Sanford, son, you know, eight months later is dead of COVID, right? So, yeah, it's just. did they reach out like they were?
01;25;05;23 - 01;25;22;28
Unknown
There is a woman almost shaking in fear right now. I'm thinking this is what you're doing to your body by saying you're an apostle. You get to say these things. Where's the fathering here when you're creating terror amongst your the people in the room? Yeah, because You know, the judgment of God's coming because we didn't evangelize hard enough, basically what they were saying.
01;25;22;28 - 01;25;48;10
Unknown
Right. So, I mean, just the amount of abuse that we're we're looking at here, it's quite astronomical. And Yeah, and we talk about what we did. You know what, You could cut all that out. I might end with this. You know, everyone is so important what we're talking about today, because when you see, you know, these gifts are given by Jesus, you see his lover, his church.
01;25;48;13 - 01;26;11;21
Unknown
But when you when you also realize that they're not titles, they're functions, I hope it gives you some freedom to go a person, a person isn't their gifting, it's their character. Right. So so they can function in these gifts. But but at the same time, you know, you know them by their fruit. Peace, joy, goodness, patience, mercy, humility.
01;26;11;23 - 01;26;30;22
Unknown
You know, there's a likeness of Christ. There is. We want these gifts functioning in the church, but, you know, but, you know, the abuse that that you see is that the apostle becomes the CEO and has the next vision. And everyone has to do it because that guy is the apostle and it gets us a lot of people really, really hurt.
01;26;30;22 - 01;26;52;21
Unknown
And, you know, I do a lot of spiritual direction and life coaching. And I must say I spend an inordinate amount of time putting people back together. Yeah, I really do. And because they're called and they're gifted, well, who's going to release them? Well, I better find an apostle or a prophet, right? And, and, and the level of burnout is, is pretty astronomical.
01;26;52;27 - 01;27;13;19
Unknown
So when you make it about your gifting or your vision, not about the nature of Christ, Mary is chosen what is best, right? It will not be taken from her. And I just need to get it in the right order. I mean, that's the thing. I remember listening to some prophetic guy talk about how this is just a short clip.
01;27;13;19 - 01;27;36;26
Unknown
So it was it was, you know, you can take the clip out of context. I it has nothing to do with the guy. It was just the the principle he said to to deal with sin in your life. I first have to deal with your vision, says if your vision's not big enough, then it'll be easy to sin because you'll lose sight of your vision and you'll fill it with something else.
01;27;36;29 - 01;27;55;21
Unknown
So I've got to deal with your vision, make your vision bigger, and then you can walk away from sin. Wow. And I thought, Man, that's. That was just so indicative of. Well, and I don't I don't you know, I don't think you know, you're mentioning John Sanford, son and all that. I don't think any of these people were awful.
01;27;55;21 - 01;28;28;03
Unknown
People like you're the books that he wrote. I've read them and I find them very helpful. Yeah, very good on understanding prophetic people and there was another one, two really good books on prophetic ministry. And so I don't you know, I don't none of them are like they're not like trying to go out and actively disrupt people. But it's just Marie and I are looking about it, looking at it, taking a step back and go, look, the, the, the language and culture and reasons for doing this are what are broken.
01;28;28;06 - 01;28;50;08
Unknown
Yeah. And it's the bigger thing that's not that that is a miss some that's a bigger thing off kilter not a miss off kilter. Well let me share one more example because it's quite telling. So we had we had a guy come to church, very gifted, wonderful, wonderful conference, very gifted guy, Spirit of God, moving lots of favor, very funny people getting healed.
01;28;50;11 - 01;29;10;27
Unknown
Right. Very good. But something just felt really off to me and I know I remember getting prayer. Am I judgmental? What's going on? You. My discernment gift is the light on the dashboard, black flashing yellow, you know? Yeah. And finally, we had this meeting in the back with just leaders, and he says something must have come up about leadership or apostles.
01;29;11;00 - 01;29;34;28
Unknown
And he says, Well, you know, we see this clearly in where you have Paul and Barnabas. You know, Barnabas is the one who introduces Paul to the to the to the apostles. He brings him in. But eventually Paul becomes the leader of that group. It's Paul and Barnabas. Paul becomes the leader. And you'll see at the crux moment when they bring Mark on the trip with them and then Mark abandoned them Banning Barnabas and Paul.
01;29;35;01 - 01;29;51;05
Unknown
Barnabas wants to bring Paul and Mark along again. And Paul's like, No way, this guy's not come in. And he says, We know, we know. Barnabas was right about Mark at the end of Paul's life. He's in prison and he says, Please send Mark to me. Right. So we know we know that Barnabas was right about Mark. Give the guy a chance.
01;29;51;07 - 01;30;15;04
Unknown
But because Paul was the apostle and Barnabas went after him and confronted it, you never read about Barnabas again because Paul was the apostle and Barnabas disappears from Scripture because it doesn't matter. The apostles right and wrong. He has the anointing like, wow. So in other words, you don't have to have a holy life, you don't have to deal with your stuff.
01;30;15;04 - 01;30;36;15
Unknown
You don't need to admit you're wrong, you got a title and you can do whatever you want. We've just assumed so many different things and that's just shocking theology and what permits abuse. So and we just don't want anybody to be abused by that. We want you to function with good apostolic people. But as John Wimmer, you know, John, earn it.
01;30;36;17 - 01;31;04;28
Unknown
I think Bob Mumford would say never trust a leader without a limp. I think that's a good statement. Yeah. You know, it's it's interesting that and I. I have to go. It's 1208. I will. Let me just show you this. Okay. That this is one a little bit one of the letters of Barnabas. So these people assume all kinds of stuff.
01;31;04;28 - 01;31;29;08
Unknown
The early church had letters from Barnabas. Well, I mean, many people think the Book of Hebrews is written by Barnabas, which I think I mean, there's you can question the authenticity because people sometimes appended names to letters. But this letter was quoted as far back as Clement. wow. And was looked at as being a letter from Barnabas to the so to say that Barnabas disappeared because Paul wielded apostolic authority.
01;31;29;10 - 01;31;49;15
Unknown
Yeah. Hogwash. Because the early church had letters from Barnabas to them and preserved them and quoted them. And actually some of the early fathers looked at what Barnabas wrote as being part of scripture. So that's just it's just again, we get this this whole gets so broken, so look like Jesus and things are going to work themselves out.
01;31;49;18 - 01;32;28;07
Unknown
Yeah, this whole last bit should probably be segway through another, another episode. We might have to do one more. Yeah. So anyway, thanks everybody for tuning in. Thanks, Murray, for your time. Murray's got to run, he's got another appointment and it's been awesome being together and awesome. Thanks so much, everybody. And it's all next time. I.