Voices from the Desert invites you on a transformative journey of apostolic thinking, exploring the depths of five-fold ministry. Join hosts Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck as they sit down with special guest Bruce Friesen, founder of the Global Transformation Collective. Uncover the wisdom of apostolic living and leadership in this thought-provoking podcast. What does it mean to think apostolically? And how does 5-fold ministry intersect with today? Join Voices from the Desert for practical insights into living apostolically today!
Bruce is the founder of Children Arise Ministry, which disciples nations by discipling the next generation through the sphere of education. He is the founder of Lifetree Churches and the Global Transformation Collective, which focuses on the transformation of all spheres of influence, by discipling people in the truths and principles of God’s Word.
To find out more about Bruce, visit: https://childrenarise.org/
For more about Joshua Hoffert visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
For more about Murray Dueck and the Samuels Mantle school visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
Check out Josh's new book on Amazon "Silent Fire: The Collection": https://www.amazon.com/Silent-Fire-Collection-Joshua-Hoffert/dp/B0CPPSXTMM/
Voices from the Desert invites you on a transformative journey of apostolic thinking, exploring the depths of five-fold ministry. Join hosts Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck as they sit down with special guest Bruce Friesen, founder of the Global Transformation Collective. Uncover the wisdom of apostolic living and leadership in this thought-provoking podcast. What does it mean to think apostolically? And how does 5-fold ministry intersect with today? Join Voices from the Desert for practical insights into living apostolically today!
Bruce is the founder of Children Arise Ministry, which disciples nations by discipling the next generation through the sphere of education. He is the founder of Lifetree Churches and the Global Transformation Collective, which focuses on the transformation of all spheres of influence, by discipling people in the truths and principles of God’s Word.
To find out more about Bruce, visit: https://childrenarise.org/
For more about Joshua Hoffert visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
For more about Murray Dueck and the Samuels Mantle school visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
Check out Josh's new book on Amazon "Silent Fire: The Collection": https://www.amazon.com/Silent-Fire-Collection-Joshua-Hoffert/dp/B0CPPSXTMM/
00;00;20;12 - 00;00;50;29
Bruce Friesen
As well as the isolation centers across animals that are like an apostolic and source of what they're going to be bringing a reformation in the context church I think a revival of a renewal of the Christian mind. I think we've lost so much in the Western world and we see immediate need of major reform of the Christian modern, but of the innocence of our nations.
00;00;51;00 - 00;00;53;02
Bruce Friesen
The first time I.
00;00;53;05 - 00;01;05;02
Bruce Friesen
Saw my position.
00;01;05;04 - 00;01;21;03
Joshua Hoffert
Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Voices from the Deserts. we've got if anybody could pick it up there, we've got a third voice.
00;01;21;06 - 00;01;23;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah, you're three witnesses.
00;01;23;07 - 00;01;36;26
Joshua Hoffert
Listen, this might be our most important episode yet, so maybe Precious. See? No pressure. No pressure. We agree. And no pressure. MURRAY That's right. Murray And I just.
00;01;36;26 - 00;01;43;20
Murray Dueck
Spit it out. I'm got to bail you out. Yeah, Okay.
00;01;43;22 - 00;01;49;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, Yeah, we've. MURRAY And I've been talking about putting this episode together for a while now.
00;01;49;17 - 00;01;51;23
Murray Dueck
And probably since we started.
00;01;52;01 - 00;02;12;27
Joshua Hoffert
Probably since we started, Yes. Yes. We've got a mutual friend on, and I'm very excited for this. So for those of you that are just tuning in, we're podcast where we talk about life and God and he kind of anything that fits Murray and I ah, fancy it but the the idea is how have we encountered him and how are we being formed?
00;02;12;27 - 00;02;34;26
Joshua Hoffert
We've been on a long series on looking at how the early church practiced prophecy and the spiritual gifts and all of these things, and then looking at in a contemporary context what that looks like. Murray And I've been going through the prophetic manifesto, and one of the points of the prophetic manifesto that we talked about last week was a healthier understanding.
00;02;34;26 - 00;03;00;09
Joshua Hoffert
What's necessary for a mature display of prophetic ministry is a healthier understanding of five fold ministry. And so this just slots right within the context of everything we're talking about because we're going to be diving into the the the idea of five fold ministry with a dear friend of ours. And so without further ado, I'll turn it over to Murray, who will let you guys know who our mystery guest is.
00;03;00;12 - 00;03;24;03
Murray Dueck
All right. So, everyone, I like to introduce you to a very good friend of mine, Bruce Friesen, who especially earlier on, he was so and he still is such a good mentor, spiritual father, lots of wisdom. You know, he's going to keep hold this recording against me later. Play it for me to hear whatever the guys say, we just have such a good relationship.
00;03;24;03 - 00;03;54;18
Murray Dueck
And and so, you know, when I need prayer, I go to him. He's one of the guys I go to and just a church planter. And Bruce has this incredible, incredible ability to take revelation and wisdom, which we talked a bit earlier and put them together. And and I just thought, you know, if there is one guy I wanted to talk to about this topic of five fold ministry and how it looks today and where is it, where it's going, it's Bruce.
00;03;54;20 - 00;04;11;00
Murray Dueck
So, Bruce, I'm going to just throw it over to you. Tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe even if some resources people could track down, but because we're going to talk about your journey quite a bit too yet. But what do you introduce yourself A little bit, a little more than that?
00;04;11;02 - 00;04;37;16
Bruce Friesen
Well, I think that I've been on a very interesting journey, which I think the journey he has, each one of us on is unique. First of all, in our spiritual formation and incarnation of a Christian living and where you know, it'd be I won't go too far back, but I recognize the dynamic of the shifts in my life where I've probably touched on all elements of the five fold.
00;04;37;19 - 00;05;02;13
Bruce Friesen
I'd say the very first thing in 1974, I was just passionate about evangelism and wanted everybody to come to Christ. I would be on the street, I'd be on the bus. Wherever I was, I'd be sharing Jesus, and I'd say what I started seeing happening is then I shifted and I started teaching and just digging into the Word of God and teaching in a significant way.
00;05;02;15 - 00;05;09;21
Bruce Friesen
And then a bizarre thing started happening. I started caring for people.
00;05;09;24 - 00;05;11;20
Joshua Hoffert
I imagine that.
00;05;11;22 - 00;05;36;18
Bruce Friesen
I realized I started having a shepherd's heart. A buddy of mine who's planted thousands of churches, he said he's always had the same problem all the time. He said, You know what happened is he'd be in a place, He plant the church, he'd get it goin, and everything was fine until the people realized he didn't like people.
00;05;36;20 - 00;05;40;14
Murray Dueck
At least he realized he did like he realized it.
00;05;40;15 - 00;06;11;02
Bruce Friesen
And so the dynamic of a shepherd's heart, I think, should be definitely there. And even all prophetic people have got a role in this. And I wish that every single prophetic person could either be in a ministry to the poor for a period of time, counseling for a period of time, or pastoring the church because a prophetic person without one of those three elements being developed in a context will will never be full of grace and truth.
00;06;11;02 - 00;06;12;03
Bruce Friesen
They'll just be full of truth.
00;06;12;03 - 00;06;14;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;06;14;02 - 00;06;14;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;06;14;13 - 00;06;50;18
Bruce Friesen
So historically, I think we needed all of those things. But I will say that I started realizing the prophetic gift was always there. But now I went from, you know, from evangelism, teaching, pastoral kicking into the prophetic, and it's probably still the strongest portion of me. But then after that, I'd say later there was this identification and people prophesying over me that I was apostolic and that I'd be going to the nations, I'd be a part of many networks.
00;06;50;20 - 00;07;14;24
Bruce Friesen
And I would say even when I was water baptized in 1974, I had Jeremiah one five given to me about before I was born. He called me and chose me to be a prophet of the nations. Well, in 1974, at age 17, I had no clue what a prophet was, a no concept zero. And so it was.
00;07;14;27 - 00;07;25;10
Murray Dueck
That's back to your earlier statement of what was it again, your not preconditioned, your potential is what your art yet.
00;07;25;12 - 00;07;53;08
Bruce Friesen
Yes. John Paul is a John Paul Jackson ism and he used to always say potentials. What you're not right. But so currently I'm engaged in a variety of different things because in 1999 then I had not Jeremiah but Isaiah 55, five of me calling to the nations and the nations calling to me because of the Lord has glorified me.
00;07;53;10 - 00;08;28;25
Bruce Friesen
And so I started moving towards the nations in a greater way. And whether engaged in planting churches, started ministries. And currently today I'm on one organization called the Institute for National Transformation. There are nine African countries. They are also have a base in London, in the UK and Atlanta, Georgia, and they are probably the the most they're probably the greatest practitioners of the transformation of any organization that I know of.
00;08;28;27 - 00;08;54;15
Bruce Friesen
But I'm also part of another one called Global Transformation Network. Mark Lyles, who leads that, and then one with Global Council of Nations, which is Mark Lyles and Dennis Peacock. So I'm part of that one. Then I'm a part of what's called the third Education Revolution, which I've got these wonderful 740 page books that are now translated into about different eight different languages.
00;08;54;15 - 00;09;34;19
Bruce Friesen
They're used to the university curriculum, the nation national leaders in Uganda have gone through it. The universities have gone out. And so it is having a significant impact. And then I'm a part of truth and transformation started Truth and Transformation Canada. And so there's the third education revolution, Canada. There's Kingdom Eyes Global, which is the coaching and consulting organization with leaders from many different nations that we've brought together to be coaching and consulting, whether the people in Britain best of government, business, education, arts, entertainment.
00;09;34;22 - 00;10;06;21
Bruce Friesen
So we've developed this coaching and consulting organization and what's currently burning, which hopefully I'll even talk to you guys more about and we'll see where it goes. Well, as automation centers across Canada that are like an apostolic resource center, but they're going to be bringing a reformation within the context of the church. I think a revival of the heart, a renewal of the Christian mind, because I think we've lost our Christian minds in the Western world.
00;10;06;24 - 00;10;09;14
Murray Dueck
Have lost my mind. A while ago.
00;10;09;16 - 00;10;54;27
Bruce Friesen
We need it. We need a major renewal of the Christian mind, but of a renaissance of our nations, and that I'm passionate about the soul of my nation. So I feel like it's shifted in such a crazy way, and I don't even know if I could, you know, put it down. Say, this is who I am. I see myself in a significant way now involved with coaching, consulting government leaders in multiple nations and just thoroughly enjoying the work that I'm doing, of looking at, well, how do we disciple a nation and if we have disciple a nation, what does that mean?
00;10;54;29 - 00;11;24;06
Bruce Friesen
I think it means the nation's been kingdom ized. I don't think it means everybody's saved. Sure, if we're deciding even people instead of just admirers of Jesus, but disciples of Jesus, that means they've been kingdom ized. What do I mean by that? It simply means that Jesus is not just Savior but His Lord, and He's Lord is now will not only obey everything we see in the context of this word and world, they know all of it.
00;11;24;09 - 00;11;51;17
Bruce Friesen
But we're also being even led by the Spirit of God. So I think we start off as principles, governance and then purpose driven. But the ultimate objective is to be presence led. And I think we're not. It's it happens by obeying what has been revealed. Why do we expect more to be revealed to us when we're not obeying what has been revealed in the context of Scripture?
00;11;51;20 - 00;12;28;21
Bruce Friesen
So I think even all of creation is groaning and traveling for King devised Christians around. When a person has been king, devised, I think they can have their merits King devised. I think it's the optimum of what God tells their family, their business, their organization. Everything can be transformed. So transformed people will transform systems, they'll transform organizations, they'll transform spheres of influence by really understanding where is this autumn alignment?
00;12;28;23 - 00;12;41;26
Bruce Friesen
I just stopped here because I want you to ask any other questions because I could go on a rant here for the next couple of hours.
00;12;41;26 - 00;12;44;02
Murray Dueck
And so that's what we watch.
00;12;44;04 - 00;12;50;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yes, we like Interactive. Mary goes on some theological rants occasionally on Voices from the Desert.
00;12;50;11 - 00;12;57;01
Murray Dueck
So if you use the word manifesto, that just gets us right.
00;12;57;04 - 00;13;30;26
Joshua Hoffert
So. Well, what I want the question I want to ask Bruce, just in what you described as kind of the brief overview of your journey and where you're at today is what are and specifically you mentioned you've kind of gone through, you know, starting with that evangelistic bent into that teaching bent pastorally, you know, what were what. And then in especially in 99 when you were getting more involved in national ministry, leadership, coaching, development.
00;13;30;26 - 00;13;55;10
Joshua Hoffert
However, you know, however you would describe that is what were some of the catalytic moments that, you know, was it prophetic words, were encounters with God? What what are some moments that were like here? I can point out that the Lord shifted how I saw things. Was it a moment? Was it a process? How did you go from one to the next?
00;13;55;13 - 00;14;05;08
Bruce Friesen
I would identify it as an epiphany on May 5th of 2008, and although I have the not the.
00;14;05;08 - 00;14;08;20
Joshua Hoffert
Answer I expected, by the way. Good.
00;14;08;23 - 00;14;42;26
Bruce Friesen
So in 2008, a friend of mine's Jonathan Conroe. Yeah, that we can put together seven teams to go to seven locations in Uganda to do seven evangelistic campaigns. And so I put together four teams and he put together three teams and I was at one place called Colombia Uganda. Excuse me, here are Colombia. Uganda. And for the first two days, nothing was happening for preaching the gospel.
00;14;42;29 - 00;15;15;07
Bruce Friesen
And we're seeing next to nobody responding. We're praying for the sick, hardly anything's happening. And it's as though the people were sort of indifferent. Anyway, I had our whole team fast and pray for that evening and the next day, as we began to share and I started just preaching, I felt like nothing was different. But all of a sudden I just said, you know, if there's anybody that needs healing here, please bring them up.
00;15;15;09 - 00;15;32;00
Bruce Friesen
You know, please come up or bring them up. They brought up the first two was a five year old and an eight year old boy. And they told us they were born blind, they were born deaf, and they were born dumb. Wow. And it's hard to say internally. I'm going, man, this is a tough start.
00;15;32;03 - 00;15;33;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Okay.
00;15;33;18 - 00;15;59;17
Bruce Friesen
You know, I've seen very little results. But as I began to pray and I'll say, their eyes looked like just a muddy pool of water and began to pray. And then all of a sudden their eyes started turning white and you could start seeing the color come to their eyes and the amazing iris. Wow. And their eyes are opened and they can see and everybody in the crowd, at least that's close up, can see what's happening to their eyes.
00;15;59;20 - 00;16;28;12
Bruce Friesen
Then their ears are open. Now you got to realize it was a massive crowd and the whole place is going absolutely wild. And if you've never been in this context before, you know, you think the boys are going to be full of joy. They matter. They were absolutely in terror. You've got to realize, never having seen, never having heard now you're seen and you're hearing what looks like a riot and people going wild.
00;16;28;15 - 00;16;49;12
Bruce Friesen
We saw many signs and ones that one are some miracles after that, many people saved from giving their lives to Jesus. But stage when the two boys were healed, I heard the Lord say, this is nothing in comparison to what I'm about to do. my mind, because of the context was going, Are you going to raise the dead?
00;16;49;14 - 00;17;16;11
Bruce Friesen
You know, are you going to grow limbs where there are no limbs? What could be more amazing than opening up the eyes of two boys or, you know, boys that were born blind, deaf and dumb, and opening up their ears and opening up their mouth. And the Lord's the Lord just said. And it was so surprising. He said, Uganda will be a prototype of a transformed nation, a light of hope to the countries of Africa.
00;17;16;11 - 00;17;25;14
Bruce Friesen
And it will send ripples of hope all around the world. And I wisely said, Lord, how are you going to do this?
00;17;25;16 - 00;17;28;01
Murray Dueck
You learn something ridiculous. I see. Good for you.
00;17;28;01 - 00;17;53;24
Bruce Friesen
Yes. And then he said, We are going to disciple nations by disciple in the next generation through the spear of education. And even though he said it to me, I just I just wanted to find out do the research on this. Is this biblical that we disciple a nation? I knew we disciple the nation because Jesus said that.
00;17;53;27 - 00;18;36;04
Bruce Friesen
And but I didn't know that it be to do by disciple in the next generation through the sphere of education. And so that's why I've been a part of writing an education revolution, part of the movement. So we started building schools in Uganda and with the homes for children at risk, digging wells, developing agriculture, micro-businesses, medical clinics, and rather than giving you everything in between, I'll just say I realize this is not the slightly a nation by disciple in the next generation through the sphere of education, we're doing education, but discipleship isn't at the center of this.
00;18;36;04 - 00;18;57;08
Bruce Friesen
We're coming to Christ. But I don't know that we're really making disciples of Christ or disciples of the Kingdom. And in my dissatisfaction, I started to pray and say, Lord, there's got to be a way to be able to make disciples of the next generation through education. And I said, Show me what's going on out there. I need some help.
00;18;57;10 - 00;19;28;28
Bruce Friesen
And I felt like a prompt phone in drain. A friend of mine who's planted thousands of churches and he lives in the UK is mostly planted them in Eastern Europe. And I called them and he said, there is a man that I know that's transforming education. And there's another man that I prophesied over 19 years ago. I haven't seen him since, but that he would come up with a whole new educational system that would transform education around the world.
00;19;29;01 - 00;19;49;27
Bruce Friesen
And I said, You have his contact. You said, Yes, I do. And so he connected the two of us. We set up a we set up a call, and as we're talking on the phone, I'm asking him things and he's answering my questions of what he's doing in education that's just blowing me away. And then he says, like, Who are you and what are you doing?
00;19;50;05 - 00;20;11;24
Bruce Friesen
I know Ian, he gave me this word, but who are you? What do you do? And I said, Well, I've been working in Uganda, and they share the story that I just shared with you, and I'm frustrated because we haven't been experiencing the transformation in education that I've been hoping for in Uganda, although we've been establishing multiple schools, doing great work.
00;20;11;26 - 00;20;20;18
Bruce Friesen
And so he said, you know, it was when I was in Uganda and I can't remember the year it was that God spoke to me.
00;20;20;20 - 00;20;22;23
Murray Dueck
This that's of Egypt.
00;20;22;26 - 00;20;42;11
Bruce Friesen
And then he give me a transformational education system. God started to speak to him about that while he was in Uganda, and he said, We need to get together and or we need to set up a Zoom call and talk. And he said, I'm going away for the next week with my wife and we're going we're going on a holidays, where are you going?
00;20;42;14 - 00;21;09;27
Bruce Friesen
So we're going to a place. It's called Victoria. British Columbia. Yeah. Where are you staying? He said. It's the Brit Wood Base Spa Resort, something like that. I said, Well, that's interesting. He said, Why? I said, That's about 3 to 4 minutes away from my home. You said, I thought you lived in Uganda. So I said, No, I'm there maybe three, four or five months of the year.
00;21;09;27 - 00;21;32;16
Bruce Friesen
But I live in Victoria. And then he got all excited. He said, My wife, when we go on a vacation, she wants to sleep in, then she wants to go to the spa and then she's not ready to go out or do anything until noon. But he says, I'm up at 5 a.m. would you get the other? So we got together at 5 a.m. till noon for the entire week.
00;21;32;18 - 00;21;34;01
Murray Dueck
wow. Incredible.
00;21;34;02 - 00;22;03;08
Bruce Friesen
Incredibly just stirred each other up. And it was one of those great relationships. And so because of working in Uganda, I also brought Michele Megawati, who is known as the foremost Christian intellect of our day by Christ Christianity Today I think it is and is known as sort of the fast Frances Schaefer of our day on the board for the C.S. Lewis Foundation.
00;22;03;11 - 00;22;44;23
Bruce Friesen
And so he and I had developed a bit of a friendship. So I had him and Lambda and then Tom Rudnick, who has a magical education, has been transforming education, all come into Uganda and having different events, meeting with government leaders. So I set up a time to to be able to meet with the Minister of Education. The Minister of Education just so happens to be the first lady of Uganda, know my Minister of Education and sport and I had a few friends that were connected to her, so I was able to develop a meeting to make a presentation of a marginal education.
00;22;44;26 - 00;23;06;16
Bruce Friesen
And so we were going to be going to do that. But the day before we did that, all night long, I dreamt the dreams that Janet Museveni was the first lady and she's the Minister of Sport and Education in Uganda. I just talked to her, her personal assistant, two days ago. And so the first lady wants me to get a hold of her.
00;23;06;16 - 00;23;29;18
Bruce Friesen
There's just a great relationship since. But it's when I woke up in the morning, I thought, Lord, I'm not speaking. Why are you showing me who this lady is? I guess you just want me to know her heart because I saw her up at 3 a.m. in the morning, on her knees, praying, praying for the next generation, and just crying out to God for her nation and for the next generation.
00;23;29;20 - 00;23;50;24
Bruce Friesen
And I saw her heart and soul and I thought, well, I guess, Lord, you just want me to know the heart of this lady, of who she is. And so we got there. And to my surprise, my friend, whose name is Benson Agboola, is a former member of Parliament. He was facilitating the meeting and I didn't know that.
00;23;50;24 - 00;24;15;03
Bruce Friesen
And so when he's facilitating and doing the introductions, he said, Mama Janet does They call her mama? And this is all happening because for the past ten years, Bruce Friesen has been coming here. He's been building schools for our children at risk. He's been building medical clinics, developing agriculture, and he's going on and on about what I've been doing.
00;24;15;05 - 00;24;43;12
Bruce Friesen
And I'm thinking, come on, transition to time sheet, mama. Janet interrupts Benson, and she said, I need to meet the man who shook the bushes. Who's the one that's bringing all of these leaders to our nation and these quality leaders to speak on education and so she he introduced me and said, This is the man. And she said, why are you doing this?
00;24;43;14 - 00;25;02;12
Bruce Friesen
And why are you bringing these leaders of this quality leaders to our nation and doing all the work that you're doing? So I shared the story of the Blind Boys being healed and what God said. And then I said, and I did this Probably this is hard for you to believe, Mary, especially you did this in under 3 minutes.
00;25;02;14 - 00;25;05;13
Murray Dueck
I do not believe that.
00;25;05;15 - 00;25;27;20
Bruce Friesen
Earth and I shared. And then I said I said, Mama, I think your heart is you're more concerned for the next generation. Their development, their education than you are about your own life or your own health. And that's what I had from the dreams. And she said, I think I've just met a man that knows me better than anyone.
00;25;27;22 - 00;25;50;04
Bruce Friesen
And then I said, Well, we are here to introduce Tom Rudman, because after this we have to go to the University Literary University and make a presentation. So Tom spoke and after he spoke and presented a marginal education, she said, This is what I've been praying for. This is an answer to my prayers. And our whole team is leaving to go to the university.
00;25;50;04 - 00;26;13;04
Bruce Friesen
And on the way out, she said, Could you stay with me? And I said, Sure, I can stay with you. My wife Lorraine, had already left and she said, What am I doing? My husband's getting to sit down with the first lady and I'm going to go, I don't need to have to be at the Southern meeting. So she was able to pass security, come back in, and we were sitting down with the first lady.
00;26;13;06 - 00;26;38;15
Bruce Friesen
I shared the dreams and more of what I believe, who she is. And this part, I won't get into the details. I just said, and there's a health issue, but you have to follow your husband and your doctor knows about. But if you walk it out, like I say, 58, and you continue to pray for the next generation and continue to work towards that, in time, you're going to be completely healed.
00;26;38;18 - 00;27;10;17
Bruce Friesen
And she has been completely healed of. So whether it's the word of knowledge, whether the dreams I would say and when I say this, this is 2008, now this is 2008. And I would say even though God spoke to me, my thinking is still daily being changed from the traditional conventional theology eschatology that I had that I think completely messed me up.
00;27;10;19 - 00;27;37;03
Bruce Friesen
And I have been going through the Word of God all over again with highlighter after highlighter and just doing searching for one of what God has to say about spheres of influence and that of a recognition. When Jesus said to make disciples of all nations that this was nothing new, that God disciple the nation of Israel through Moses.
00;27;37;10 - 00;28;01;01
Bruce Friesen
Right. He started with them orally. And he even says for this reason I chose Abraham because he would teach his children as children's children and those of his own household how to be in a strong relationship with me by walking in my ways, by doing justice and doing righteousness. And Abraham knew if he upheld his end of the covenant, God would uphold his.
00;28;01;04 - 00;28;26;14
Bruce Friesen
And that covenant was, I'll make you into a great nation. I'll make you a father of many nations. So I see more than provider, more than protector that a father is going to be a teacher. And teaching even those elements. But now that he's understood how to be in a strong relationship by walking in God's ways, doing justice and doing righteousness.
00;28;26;16 - 00;28;55;16
Bruce Friesen
Moses The curriculum that's given really is building upon what what Moses or what Abraham was all teaching. So I started understanding that God spoke to Moses in every area of life, and if applied, they became a great nation now till 300 years, till David and Solomon, that they finally started seeing a greater fulfillment of them and the nation becoming disciple.
00;28;55;16 - 00;29;22;11
Bruce Friesen
The memory area. So this is the kind of journey that I've been on, and it's a realization that I think that there's so much traditional theology and eschatology that is not in alignment with the Word of God, and we're in need of a great reformation, right? Once again, reformation should be ongoing, but we're in need. We're long overdue for a reformation again.
00;29;22;13 - 00;29;47;00
Joshua Hoffert
Bruce, just so that what you said, that God challenged one of your paradigms through Scripture and what I love, what you just pulled apart, that whole discipling a nation, but looking, you know, because Jesus says, I go disciple nations, but then seeing how God did that and I love that. I love your train of thought there. Abraham To Moses.
00;29;47;00 - 00;29;47;28
Murray Dueck
Yes, to David.
00;29;48;02 - 00;30;22;13
Joshua Hoffert
David And the 300 year journey of discipling the nation directly. Right. So there's one significant paradigm that gets blown up as you see Scripture, as you journey with the father and you see that stuff happening in your own life, right? What are what are and the need for reformation. So in your mind or in your observation, what are a few other paradigms that the father's going Let's do away with this that you see in the church presently today?
00;30;22;16 - 00;30;35;08
Joshua Hoffert
You know, you mentioned eschatology, some theological viewpoints or some that God has done a death blow to in your own heart. And you see it a totally different way of seeing things. What, what, what Maybe a couple others have you seen?
00;30;35;10 - 00;31;00;26
Bruce Friesen
Well, in all reformation, what I see is and just maybe just even to step back, if you look at there were slaves for 300 years. But it took another 300 years to come to a significant level of the nation being disciple, which I now call been king demise, where Jesus has also become Lord. Now, obviously, he's not Lord at that time for them.
00;31;00;29 - 00;31;27;06
Bruce Friesen
Sure. As they're applying the Word of God, they're obeying that of a recognition that the transformation should starts taking place. And they're doing this without the Holy Spirit. And so which is pretty significant of how far they were able to come right, without the Holy Spirit living in them, which is now possible because of what Christ is done, but I would say in all reformation.
00;31;27;09 - 00;32;00;27
Bruce Friesen
So when I say reformation, I would say Josiah, when he found the book, there was a great reformation, right? The book had been lost. It's a whole site that actually sent five governors. And this is, I believe, second product, Jules 79 and he's sending 11 Levites and they're doing circulatory teaching in the nation on God's Word. So it's not only about concern of the people, whether knowing God or having the relationship or we put it there saved.
00;32;01;00 - 00;32;28;23
Bruce Friesen
But it's about the dynamic of getting the kingdom into them, right? Supervised by just obeying more of the word of God, learning it, applying it. So we see great reformation at that period of time. Now, I'd say I'd rather live under the time of Ezra and Nehemiah than all the signs, wonders and miracles of the Exodus, because we have the greatest purity of heart after 70 years of captivity in Babylon, Right?
00;32;28;26 - 00;32;58;14
Bruce Friesen
The rebuilding the temple, but the rebuilding the wall around Jerusalem. And there's actually three temporal objective that fulfill John 17 prayer of that would become one that are there in the history of Israel. So that first of all, build the tabernacle in the wilderness corporately and that speaking of worship and the facilitation of his presence, then they're fighting a common enemy in the land and it's warfare.
00;32;58;14 - 00;33;32;19
Bruce Friesen
And even it's this is this is maybe the long version of the answer, but I love that they step off the banks of the normal, familiar of God at the Red Sea, and they pass through a vast sea of unknown and come into a whole new territory, I call it. Then also a spiritual topography, a spiritual dispensation time in Egypt, God shows himself as the judge of their enemies, as their Savior, by putting the blood in the dark pools as their deliverer, by opening up the Red Sea.
00;33;32;21 - 00;33;56;05
Bruce Friesen
And he shows a revelation of his name and who he is by what it by his works. But they step off that bank, and now that's still who he is. But everything changes. Now. It's a pillar of fire at night, a cloud by day, manna from heaven, water from rock. And you go, God is also my provider, my protector, my.
00;33;56;08 - 00;34;19;06
Bruce Friesen
And he's guided me through the wilderness by a pillar of fire and a cloud and providing water and metal. But then they have to step off the banks again of the normal familiar of this is who God is, because as soon as they cross the Jordan no more pillar of fire, no more cloud, no more manna from heaven, no more water from Iraq.
00;34;19;08 - 00;34;42;29
Bruce Friesen
And the only thing they experience as Joshua experienced is the Lord showing himself as captain of the Lord's Army. Why? Because they're going to be fighting for their inheritance. God said, I've given you possession. Begin to engage your enemy in battle. So there's a participation that we have to fight for every bit of the crown of our inheritance that God wants to give us.
00;34;43;01 - 00;35;06;06
Bruce Friesen
It's by grace, but there's also having to fight for it. But so he shows himself as captain of the Lord, of hosts of the Army of Heaven, because they need to know him as God, as their warrior in Exodus calls them the God of war. And so they need to have them know that way. They needed to know him as provider protector, died in the wilderness.
00;35;06;06 - 00;35;33;10
Bruce Friesen
They needed to know him as judge of their enemies and as savior and deliver in the wilderness. But there's a progression. I say we stop growing when we stop stepping off the banks of the known and the familiar and stop being willing to go through the vast unknown, where they're moving geographically, where they're changing what we're doing. I five and a half years ago, I stepped out of pastoring and so it was another time.
00;35;33;10 - 00;35;57;19
Bruce Friesen
But I think the older we get, the less likely we are to want to step off of the known and the familiar, which is secure and comfortable and completely different. I'm used to pastor churches doing prophetic schools, and I still feel like I'm finding my way of discovering what it is that God has for me now on this side of that.
00;35;57;21 - 00;36;27;24
Bruce Friesen
But I have to step off the banks, but I'll say apostolic prophetic people, you know, a lot of people that are pastoral teacher or administrator, they don't like change. So people are afraid they're going to die of boredom if something doesn't go right. So it's they're disruptive innovators. They are pioneers. They have to explore are they have they have they need adventure.
00;36;27;26 - 00;37;01;08
Bruce Friesen
And whereas there's other people that are not wired for exploration, for pioneering and for adventure, all they want the security and they want the comfort. But I'll say all of us are still challenged to make these steps. The reason that I'm stating that is because I think one of the great changes that's also taking place is that we're moving towards the Day of the Saints and where all creation's groaning and traveling for the Sons of God to be made manifest and Romans Chapter eight.
00;37;01;08 - 00;37;29;19
Bruce Friesen
But what that's talking about is for them to mature, for us to come into maturity. And yet the five fold are given to the body, to equip the body. So to become into the unity of the faith, the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature. And then it describes maturity until all body parts are functioning and the body's building itself up in love as each part is doing its work well, what's the work?
00;37;29;21 - 00;37;55;14
Bruce Friesen
And I'll say the work is either apostolic prophetic, evangelistic, pastoral worship. And so the five are equipping the whole body to have all five of those elements there. But I would also say the apostles predominantly are drawn and attracted to themselves. Those that are apostolic, you guys know the people that are most attracted to you are prophetic people because they're both prophets.
00;37;55;16 - 00;38;15;23
Bruce Friesen
So everybody wants to be around you because that's who are. And you have a maturity and their hope is you're going to unlock what's in them, but you're going to develop what's in them, that you're going to teach them how to cultivate what's in them so that you're reproducing yourself. So the concept is this this is a great idea.
00;38;15;26 - 00;38;50;29
Bruce Friesen
And I would say Alan Hirsch gave me language for what I already believed wrote Permanent Revolution. He wrote five Q Which is the reactivating of the original intelligence and capacity of the Body of Christ, and then a5q workbook. So the reactivating the original intelligence and capacity, when we say five, we all understand IQ and IQ five IQ is the same along those lines of a recognition that we need all five.
00;38;51;01 - 00;39;20;01
Bruce Friesen
And when I see this, Paul starts talking about this already in Galatians 115, he says Before I was born he called me. He chose me to preach the gospel to the Gentiles as an apostle. The first things are germane to every Christian. Before we were born, he called us. He chose us to preach the Gospel. But then we see Peter's audience was the Jews.
00;39;20;01 - 00;39;47;15
Bruce Friesen
Paul's audience was the Gentiles. You may have seasons where you see your audience differently prophetically, my audience is fathers and mothers more than anything. Now I say fathers and mothers. I say fathers and mothers, those that have a father or mother heart for their nation, for their city. They may be in government, they may be in education, they may be in media, they may be in and entertainment.
00;39;47;15 - 00;40;10;00
Bruce Friesen
They may be in business. But they have father and mother's heart. So I am getting downloads for people in leadership, but they have the fathers and mothers hearts. The most of my prophetic ministry is they're just out of curiosity. Have you guys seen where your prophetic ministry has changed to different audiences at times?
00;40;10;03 - 00;40;14;07
Murray Dueck
yeah. for sure, yeah.
00;40;14;09 - 00;40;36;04
Bruce Friesen
So actually I'd like to hear that in a minute, but I'll finish. I'll finish this thought. So Paul says this, then he reiterates that limitations three, seven and eight meditations for one. He says, I urge you, brothers, as a prisoner of the Lord, to walk worthy of the vocational calling you have received. So that word in most translations is just calling.
00;40;36;06 - 00;41;08;17
Bruce Friesen
But if you look it up in the in the Greek, it means your vocational calling. It's also identity. It's your vocational identity. So it's not just a function, but it's who you are. So an occupation might be if you're a doctor, and yet you're on a vacation with your wife and somebody has a heart attack. If it's just what you do for work and you're getting paid for, you're not going to respond Coming back, You're not to respond because I'm not getting paid for it.
00;41;08;17 - 00;41;36;02
Bruce Friesen
And it's my occupation, but it's what is your vocation and it's your identity. You're going to respond because there's somebody having a heart attack and to do something about it. So it's the person's identity. Then in Ephesians four seven, Paul says to each and every single one of you, Grace has been given once again by the client. You have received this path since Grace.
00;41;36;02 - 00;42;03;14
Bruce Friesen
You have been given is passed. And so when did we receive the grace? When we receive the calling? And then he said, he says he led captivity captive, in other words, prisoners of war. And he them and now they're his prisoners, these prisoners of war that were prisoners of the enemy. And he takes them another his prisoners, and now he's giving these prisoners as gifts towards men.
00;42;03;16 - 00;42;30;01
Bruce Friesen
Well, which ones of us were prisoners of war? All of us that didn't know Jesus were captive by the world. But by sin, by Satan. We were all captives. And now those captives have been captivated by His grace and by what he has done for us on the cross. And he's given us a gift towards men of some have been given the grace to be apostles.
00;42;30;01 - 00;43;04;03
Bruce Friesen
Some to be prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, some teachers to equip the body to do the work of the ministry. Well, what's the work of the ministry? One of the equipping the body to do their equipping the body to be apostolic, which in simple terms is the expansion of the. KING Do you think the evangelist does want to numerically to grow and more people see and they're wanting people to come to know Christ and populate heaven, the apostolic expansion of the kingdom?
00;43;04;05 - 00;43;25;05
Bruce Friesen
How much of the kingdom of heaven can we get on or how much of the will can be done on Earth? So each have a different role that I'd say we have to realize. This letter is been written to the church, an emphasis not to a few unique few or just to a few leaders. Right. It's written the whole church.
00;43;25;05 - 00;43;38;25
Bruce Friesen
So let's say vocational call and you have received all Christians in emphasis. This is a circulatory letter that goes to all the other churches as well. Oops. All these letters that are to the church.
00;43;38;28 - 00;43;40;07
Murray Dueck
Well, it's.
00;43;40;09 - 00;43;44;00
Bruce Friesen
All I guess we saw applause there for a moment.
00;43;44;05 - 00;43;46;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, You said letters. Yeah, there you go.
00;43;46;16 - 00;44;13;20
Bruce Friesen
And that the written to not only all Christians at that time, but I think the written to all Christians of all time and every Christian is an apostle prophet of Angelus shepherd or teacher. We'll have a primary gifting, vocational identity and a secondary, but they're equipping the body to do the work of the ministry so that the whole body becomes thinking of how do I extend and expand the kingdom?
00;44;13;22 - 00;44;55;05
Bruce Friesen
How do I, if I'm a prophet, teach people to see here to represent God in the context of my area of influence. And so what I say this I'll say at birth, the potential is there for us to reproduce. I mean, God's art was be fruitful, multiply, reproduce, fill the earth, have dominion, and in many ways this is the way that it happens, is the kingdom comes as we understand our vocational identity and calling and as mature, prophetic or apostolic or evangelistic pastoral teacher fathers and mothers, they're equipping the body.
00;44;55;05 - 00;45;22;05
Bruce Friesen
So back just reverse a little bit. But the potential's there at conception, but then maybe not until you're 12 or 13. Could you biologically reproduce yourself? Yeah, maybe not until you're 20. And some men, maybe until the 30 or 40. And can they reproduce themselves of their heart, their mind, their thinking. So I say somebody is thought an evangelist by Ephesians four.
00;45;22;10 - 00;45;50;14
Bruce Friesen
If they lead hundreds of thousands to Jesus, they're evangelists. If they're equipping the body to do the work of evangelism, we are now reproducing their gifts, their calling, their anointing, their way of thinking into another. So prophets, not a prophet, because he sees, he hears and prophesies even accurately, but they're equipping the body to see, to hear, to prophesy, to represent God.
00;45;50;16 - 00;46;29;25
Bruce Friesen
And they're reproducing themselves completely within others. The reproducing themselves as far as for the whole body of Christ should be seen and hearing and all being a prophetic people, all being an apostolic set one people, all being witnesses and all being able to teach to some level. But they may not all be this may not be their vocation or identity, but the objective is that they are equipping the body till we reach the unity of the faith, the knowledge of the Son of God becoming mature or attaining to full stature in Christ.
00;46;29;27 - 00;46;57;25
Bruce Friesen
And then it goes on until every member of the body is functioning and doing its part and the body is building itself up in love. Martin Luther restored the priesthood of all believers and the kingship that we're presenting. But I think we're coming to the Day of the Saints, where it's a realization every part of the body is one of these five.
00;46;57;27 - 00;47;25;22
Bruce Friesen
And as a primary and a secondary, they work best when they're together, but it's not on the four walls of the church where those within the four walls that make the apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers for the church or through the church, but they're those that are being equipped to be able to, in one sense be the church or the better word ecclesia within their organizations or their spheres of influence.
00;47;25;22 - 00;47;50;10
Bruce Friesen
If they're a teacher at a school, if they are part of a business, what does that mean? To see the kingdom come into every area. And so I think the day of the Saints that we're moving towards is everybody realizing their vocational identity and calling the gifts that are part of the tools that are given to do the work, the spiritual gifts, the audiences that are called in.
00;47;50;10 - 00;48;18;05
Bruce Friesen
So they might be called to the area of education, media, entertainment, family, government. They might be called to a different area, but it's equipping them to send them out because if you look at the work actually was taking place within the context of the marketplace in the Book of Arts, most all that's out there anyway, that's been a major shift in my thinking.
00;48;18;07 - 00;48;19;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right?
00;48;19;05 - 00;48;53;09
Bruce Friesen
And my heart is to see everybody empowered in their identity. And when I say your vocational identity, when you see in Revelation in Heaven, you see the wall with the apostles names on it. So it's not like it's temporary that and we're also kings and priests in let's see, it's revelations 510. It says that we will reign with Christ as kings, not in heaven, on earth with Christ as kings on earth that we're going to rule as kids.
00;48;53;12 - 00;49;18;29
Bruce Friesen
So the identity as a king, the identity as a priest, the identity as apostle or prophet, these are not temporary to serve a purpose, but they become part of our identity. Because you actually in revelation of prophets. Well, wait a minute. That's just a job description for a period of time down here. No, it's part of your identity, right?
00;49;19;01 - 00;49;47;26
Bruce Friesen
There's an empowering when we for us and for others, when they realize that, no, this is not the side, This is the way he made me. We're empowered because I'll say, are conventional systems that what we are doing to a large extent and not all churches are the same, but many of them, we are cultivating an environment that's producing spectators instead of participants.
00;49;47;28 - 00;49;56;17
Bruce Friesen
Everybody's watching the few doing the speaking and doing the work. We're creating a consumer culture rather than a contributor culture.
00;49;56;20 - 00;49;57;12
Joshua Hoffert
Or consumer.
00;49;57;13 - 00;50;25;02
Bruce Friesen
Name who's got the best worship? Where's the most the knight, the deep right, who's got the most children's programs? It's like a shopping or a checklist that I'm looking for things as a consumer, the church that I'm hunting for. And so what I see so often my picture is football players that should be on the field in the game that we've dressed them up like cheerleaders and they're on the sidelines cheering on.
00;50;25;04 - 00;50;26;05
Murray Dueck
What they really.
00;50;26;07 - 00;50;58;10
Bruce Friesen
In the game, on the field, participating contributing. And what happens is we're actually producing entropy, right. Which is a static body of Christ instead of a kinetic body. So what happens is it becomes the useless body of Christ. It's not functioning and everybody should be functioning. We even have concepts that are in relationship to this objects not being fed their ground.
00;50;58;10 - 00;50;59;18
Murray Dueck
Yes, for sure.
00;50;59;21 - 00;51;16;26
Bruce Friesen
And whereas Jesus concept to being fed is this He is that the heat of the day dripping in sweat, probably stinking because he has got the odor on comes to the same area. He's hungry. So the boys will look for food.
00;51;16;29 - 00;51;26;05
Joshua Hoffert
That's blasphemy. That's blasphemy. He's the son of God. He never stunk right.
00;51;26;07 - 00;51;46;05
Bruce Friesen
So he gets in this conversation with the woman at the well and we know the story of her ministering to her and she having an epiphany that this is the Christ, the son of God that goes and gets people. And when the boys come back with food and they're wanting to give them food is, Guys, I got food.
00;51;46;05 - 00;51;55;23
Bruce Friesen
You just wouldn't understand my food, my meat. And it's so satisfying. Is to do the will of my father and finish his work.
00;51;55;26 - 00;52;23;02
Joshua Hoffert
That's the biggest proof that he was both man and God, because there's three of us guys here. If anybody shows up with a meal, the first thing we do is go, yeah, yeah, let's have this meal. So proof that he was both man and God is that he said, No, let's not have the meal I need to teach you first because if he was just man this is telling as that meal right away Give me this.
00;52;23;04 - 00;52;26;12
Bruce Friesen
Isn't it cool though as well. Just the thinking difference.
00;52;26;14 - 00;52;27;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah. for sure.
00;52;27;20 - 00;52;35;02
Bruce Friesen
Consumer of going No, I'm having malnourishment because I'm not doing the will of my father or his work.
00;52;35;05 - 00;52;35;28
Joshua Hoffert
That's a paradigm.
00;52;35;28 - 00;52;36;19
Murray Dueck
Shift.
00;52;36;21 - 00;52;44;26
Bruce Friesen
Well it's it's maybe it's got to be a major shift and so on. People say I'm just not you. Then I'm going, You're not worse or you're starvation.
00;52;45;00 - 00;52;47;16
Murray Dueck
You just simply not the person.