Happy New Year everybody! The Voices from the Desert crew is back at it for 2024! We have some exciting interviews and topics coming in the next few months, stay tuned!
Join Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck for part 2 of their interview with Bruce Friesen. Bruce is the founder of Children Arise Ministry, which disciples nations by discipling the next generation through the sphere of education. He is the founder of Lifetree Churches and the Global Transformation Collective, which focuses on the transformation of all spheres of influence, by discipling people in the truths and principles of God’s Word.
Today we dive further into the topic of apostolic ministry. What kind of space exists in the church today to expression the apostolic grace of Ephesians 4? Is there any place where that is being done well? Let's dive in with Josh, Murray, and Bruce!
To find out more about Bruce, visit: https://childrenarise.org/
For more about Joshua Hoffert visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
For more about Murray Dueck and the Samuels Mantle school visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
Check out Josh's new book on Amazon "Silent Fire: The Collection": https://www.amazon.com/Silent-Fire-Collection-Joshua-Hoffert/dp/B0CPPSXTMM/
Happy New Year everybody! The Voices from the Desert crew is back at it for 2024! We have some exciting interviews and topics coming in the next few months, stay tuned!
Join Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck for part 2 of their interview with Bruce Friesen. Bruce is the founder of Children Arise Ministry, which disciples nations by discipling the next generation through the sphere of education. He is the founder of Lifetree Churches and the Global Transformation Collective, which focuses on the transformation of all spheres of influence, by discipling people in the truths and principles of God’s Word.
Today we dive further into the topic of apostolic ministry. What kind of space exists in the church today to expression the apostolic grace of Ephesians 4? Is there any place where that is being done well? Let's dive in with Josh, Murray, and Bruce!
To find out more about Bruce, visit: https://childrenarise.org/
For more about Joshua Hoffert visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
For more about Murray Dueck and the Samuels Mantle school visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
Check out Josh's new book on Amazon "Silent Fire: The Collection": https://www.amazon.com/Silent-Fire-Collection-Joshua-Hoffert/dp/B0CPPSXTMM/
00;00;13;01 - 00;00;41;14
Bruce Friesen
Some of them seem like nonsense, but I think that the majority of places, given the pressure to perform in and that we are amongst something as well, but it's not. We're totally sold off to the market.
00;00;41;17 - 00;01;00;11
Murray Dueck
Through the question that you if you don't like it, that's a big statement. Let me just say in regards to the size of middle.
00;01;00;13 - 00;01;30;19
Bruce Friesen
So anyway, was one of those or some of my friends that I wanted to see the information because that we're going to equip the body. That means empowering the body and evil in the body. And so we have to new theological understanding, new methodology that's going to change our cultures from from spectators to participants, from consumers to contributors, from static to connect.
00;01;30;21 - 00;02;00;03
Bruce Friesen
And I think we need all the five Q And I used to see them in a sequential order of the Apostles were the excavators, and they laid the foundation and others built upon that. The framers come up, the roof comes on and and then the electrical, the plumbing, the drywall, and then we know the sequential order. But now, because of Alan Hirsch and his concept, he said, look at it more like a bicycle.
00;02;00;06 - 00;02;42;12
Bruce Friesen
It has a frame, it has two wheels, it has a chain and pedals that are connected to gears. It has a seat and a steering wheel. It has to be assembled and it has to be aligned for the bicycle to fulfill its function of getting you from point A to point B and maybe point C and on. And I recognize now that the healthiest churches, the healthiest government, the healthiest businesses, the healthiest education systems are the ones where they has a5q team and I'll say the immature apostle, immature prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher.
00;02;42;14 - 00;03;14;27
Bruce Friesen
They want everybody to be like them, and they can't value the unique distinctiveness of each gifting and recognize the need they have for one another. So in the immaturity stages, they can't handle one another. Quite often in our churches, when the apostles of the prophets, which are pioneers, explorers, disruptive innovators, they get the foundation established, they are genetically engineered out of the equation.
00;03;15;00 - 00;03;44;24
Bruce Friesen
And people say, that's Canada. And apostles and prophets can't function in Canada because of the spirit that's here. And yet you see Paul in Second Corinthians, the three places identified how the Corinthians were no longer recognizing or acknowledging his apostolic authority. So he had the same problem. And we need the settlements. We need those that are pastors, teachers, and just to be able to establish things.
00;03;44;26 - 00;04;10;18
Bruce Friesen
But we're going to lose our edge when we genetically engineer the apostolic and the prophetic out of the equation and so I think the maturity is we recognize we still need the disruptive innovators all the time. And the disruptive innovators recognize nothing you're going to lay a foundation for or is going to be built upon without the pastors and the teachers.
00;04;10;20 - 00;04;34;26
Bruce Friesen
And so we have to recognize our need for one another. If we look at in the natural, let's say Steve Jobs was an apostolic leader once things were going, he's such a disruptive innovator. He was a pain in the butt for everybody. He was difficult to work with. So they removed him and then everything starts to decline, no matter the cost, they bring it back.
00;04;34;29 - 00;05;00;16
Bruce Friesen
If you look at John Calvin, he was so demanding of we've got to be able to build a city and a nation on God's Word that it was his strictness and rigidity and passion that drove everybody crazy. So they drove him out of Geneva. Geneva started losing it. Great decline, incredible disorder. And so what did they do? They bring John Calvin back.
00;05;00;18 - 00;05;33;21
Bruce Friesen
And because they recognize the apostolic leader and the prophetic leaders, especially together, bring a significant amount of order back and bring the necessary edge that's always focused on expansion and growing. Once a church or an organization, the government stops thinking in terms of expansion and growth in depth and with the breadth, all the they begin to decline. So we need all five working together.
00;05;33;24 - 00;05;42;20
Bruce Friesen
And the reason I'm identifying those as problematic is because that's more of a tendency to remove the apostolic and the prophetic.
00;05;42;26 - 00;06;11;02
Murray Dueck
So. So with that verse, could you like as we're talking about this with this team and how it works, if you could imagine or give even an example, you know, of, of how again, I think I think people tend to not remember theology, but they do remember story or parable really well. You know, they just grabbed him so, so of like, how do you see the prophetic and apostolic working in a local church?
00;06;11;02 - 00;06;17;18
Murray Dueck
How would you how would you if you could give an example, where have you seen that work? Right.
00;06;17;20 - 00;06;48;12
Bruce Friesen
Well, I've seen it in different locations. One place that I'm thoroughly enjoying is called Zion Church and doing a mass movement, which we just opened up a university in October that they are on 153 acres. And what I see is I see the gift in working together, not only the apostle, the prophet, evangelist, shepherd teacher, and the health of the relationship on the maturity of recognizing and valuing one another's distinctive gift is of callings.
00;06;48;15 - 00;07;25;01
Bruce Friesen
And I'd say it's a rare thing, but I think part of it is got to be able to go. We have to recognize this is a pattern of God's wanting us to build according to a pattern of having the five fold and the five Q all in operation within the local church. Now, some of them may have less maturity and they may not all become apostolic resource centers, but I think that it's all only of the immaturity when we value the way that we are wired and think that everybody should think the way that we think that it doesn't.
00;07;25;01 - 00;07;26;03
Murray Dueck
Absolutely.
00;07;26;06 - 00;07;49;21
Bruce Friesen
But I'd say the most the healthiest that I think that I've seen over the years is the church called Zion Church in Brazil, in Sao Paulo, Brazil. Now, that said, they have many relationships in 40 different nations, but not they don't have to brand all of the churches of Zion churches. So it's a network, it's relational. And so I see it there.
00;07;49;21 - 00;08;11;04
Bruce Friesen
But the Save the Apostolic and the prophetic working together, I think that that's part is usually seemingly much simpler. They're both both disruptive innovators. But to see the opposite all across the prophetic working effectively sometimes with the evangelist or the pastor or the teacher.
00;08;11;06 - 00;08;11;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's.
00;08;11;22 - 00;08;22;19
Bruce Friesen
More problematic because I think there's a larger gap in their thinking and their motivation and their value systems.
00;08;22;22 - 00;08;24;19
Murray Dueck
So it's funny.
00;08;24;21 - 00;08;26;05
Joshua Hoffert
Go ahead.
00;08;26;07 - 00;08;41;09
Murray Dueck
Well, it just reminds me, I guess we'll have to have Stu Schroeder on here, like he's a he's an apostolic father to me. You know, he's got this ability and and it's funny that the Lord told him, I guess he was tapping into the Lord's ask me for something or what do you want me to ask you for?
00;08;41;12 - 00;08;58;16
Murray Dueck
The Lord goes, Ask me for the old Save-On-Foods grocery store building, and hope He goes, I don't want to ask you for that, but I want you to I want you to want to ask me for that. So then he does all this miraculous stuff happens and they get this building. I mean, it's a massive, like, you know, Safeway building or a big grocery store chain.
00;08;58;16 - 00;09;16;17
Murray Dueck
They get the building and it just and then so, you know, apostolic by faith, he sets it all up and then he sets it up into a center where other churches can use it. And Lord says, don't put your name on it. By the way it goes. Okay. And then he walks around the building. There is this other church.
00;09;16;17 - 00;09;39;22
Murray Dueck
He's going to be involved up on a ladder, putting their name up on the building. And the Lord's is. I want you to go hold their ladder. Tell them it's kind of windy on this side of the building till they tell them to put it up stronger. He's like, Yes, Lord, here's this apostolic guy that starts something that he's got to learn how to trust other people and just let go right of what he wants to build.
00;09;39;22 - 00;10;00;19
Murray Dueck
And yeah, so how do these guys like you see that kind of thinking emerging where there's mutual submission to each other? Because I mean, the reason I'm asking this question, I can't tell you how many times that that, you know, I've been in groups where somebody finally says, Well, I'm the apostle, you have to do what I say.
00;10;00;26 - 00;10;18;16
Murray Dueck
All right. But but it's pretty clearly in the church that what's going on is a pastoral issue. And what needs to happen is somebody with counseling skills needs to come in and the apostle is actually shut up and sit down somewhere, please. You know, but but he thinks, well, you know what? We just all got to work harder.
00;10;18;16 - 00;10;32;10
Murray Dueck
Let's push more. You know, And it's like, no, that's not this issue. But so how do they get to the point They're really hearing and observing what's happening and submitting to one another out of love and it actually functions like.
00;10;32;12 - 00;10;59;22
Bruce Friesen
It's it's all immaturity and it's only brokenness. You know, really the dynamic of if we look at shake up the name change happening River Gilbert and because he's always scheming and he's always he's just building his old empire and so on. But remember the guy's name, prayer as a place system is the blood.
00;10;59;24 - 00;11;01;01
Murray Dueck
Charles Bellow.
00;11;01;04 - 00;11;02;25
Bruce Friesen
Charles Bell. That's it.
00;11;02;28 - 00;11;06;17
Murray Dueck
And now you gave me that book. That's how I know this.
00;11;06;19 - 00;11;24;28
Bruce Friesen
Is pastoring a church. I think it was the first time. And this elderly couple that I think they're elders in the church. And they said, Charles, you know, basically, you're a nice guy. We love you, but we're getting pretty old and we don't have enough energy to be able to grow another pastor.
00;11;25;00 - 00;11;25;22
Murray Dueck
Charles Dickens.
00;11;25;22 - 00;11;53;12
Bruce Friesen
Is drawing the church, but the church is growing a pastor. Parents may be raising children, but children are raising and growing parents and so we translate in the immature stages. We have to recognize everybody's in a place of growth and they're going to do things out of insecurity, rejection, fear of rejection. They don't they're not secure in their identity.
00;11;53;15 - 00;12;23;00
Bruce Friesen
They're not secure in their authority. It's like Jesus is water baptized, the heavens open, and this is my beloved son. And who Manuel pleased is what the father says from heaven. Well, please means totally satisfied. And so then the temptation in the wilderness is if you are the son of God, turn the stones and the bread. Rubens. It's a pressure to prove it right and throw yourself down from the pinnacle of the temple.
00;12;23;00 - 00;12;43;26
Bruce Friesen
It's a pressure to perform. Yeah. So I think that we are. Jesus was under the pressure to perform, to produce, and to prove that he's the Son of God. As response was as well that he didn't feel the pressure because he says, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.
00;12;43;28 - 00;13;05;27
Bruce Friesen
In other words, yeah, I'm hungry. I haven't eaten for 40 days and 40 nights, but my father hasn't told me to turn the stones, so I'm not going to let my natural physical hunger determine what I'm going to do with the power and authority that's mine. As the Son of God, I'm going to do it as a man under authority.
00;13;05;29 - 00;13;31;01
Bruce Friesen
And because I'm really setting a model. But then whether then the dynamic of, you know, let yourself down from the pinnacle of the temple or he showed him the splendor and the majesty of the kingdoms of this world. And so the mind to give him to have or I will Jesus didn't debate that, but he knew, Satan knew that Jesus came for the kingdoms of this world.
00;13;31;03 - 00;13;35;06
Bruce Friesen
A kingdom. And it's like a shortcut to God's way.
00;13;35;08 - 00;13;36;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;13;36;07 - 00;14;06;11
Bruce Friesen
What took Jesus 40 days and 40 nights to get secure in his identity is taking the last 40 years or longer. If we even get there right, to be secure in our identities and not of, you know, fear or rejection, not the insecurity, no longer concern what anybody else thinks. I love my wife when she turned 50. She just did your lover Before that, he didn't care.
00;14;06;14 - 00;14;11;28
Murray Dueck
I thought it was too easy to say what earlier.
00;14;12;00 - 00;14;39;06
Bruce Friesen
Got stranger what anybody thought anymore. And so she everywhere would say what she think, what she thought, what she felt, you know, which most of the time I appreciate it. Yeah, there were there were times that I may not have well, but especially when it was maybe directed towards me.
00;14;39;08 - 00;14;43;17
Joshua Hoffert
I'm going to I'm going to clip that out. Just that and send that to Lorraine.
00;14;43;19 - 00;14;49;14
Murray Dueck
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't come back. We're sending this.
00;14;49;17 - 00;15;21;05
Bruce Friesen
Yeah, that's right. She knows that this we document these things, but I'll tell you that security of our identity is a lifelong journey and that I think that the majority of us are still in places that we've given to the pressure to perform, to produce, to prove who we are, and that we are loved and accept that as well, that we're told that we're totally satisfying to the father.
00;15;21;07 - 00;15;44;00
Murray Dueck
And I want to throw in a question on that, too, if you don't mind, because that's a big statement, what you just said in regards to the five fold ministry, because because if we follow your thinking through here, you have to come to the conclusion it's not about your success, it's about your your progress. It's about your becoming through life experience, mature, so we can carry something.
00;15;44;00 - 00;16;04;03
Murray Dueck
It's not about your success, like in your first church flat or your first, you know, five fold ministry. Because because we make it about our success and we fail in like, well, if I am what I do, well, obviously I'm finished. But if it's about a growth and it's about seasons of life and it's about becoming, then everything is whether it's good or it's bad.
00;16;04;03 - 00;16;07;23
Murray Dueck
It's just formation, which God loves either way.
00;16;07;25 - 00;16;32;11
Bruce Friesen
Absolutely. What about our highest calling as sons and daughters is to grow into becoming fathers and mothers that we're reproducing ourselves. If the best thing that I feel like I ever got from John Winberg is for you guys. You know, I was a vineyard pastor and I was part of that movement. As John Weber, he continued to teach us, Give it away.
00;16;32;14 - 00;17;00;02
Bruce Friesen
He gave people the platform authority space. For many of them, we would say even way too soon, but sort of Jesus. And we just and because of their failure, because of Judas failure, Jesus obviously wasn't very discerning or he should have never and he should have never given them the responsibility of oversight for the money. Like Jesus. What were you thinking?
00;17;00;05 - 00;17;36;00
Bruce Friesen
And I think it's an invitation. It was an opportunity for you, for Judas, and that he had a choice. And so for people to fail, I think we need to give people enough rope to hang themselves. Are not states to be able to fail and recognize they're going to fail, but there's going to be the growth. So if we're tried to be so safe and secure and we protect everything instead of giving it away, what about as fathers and mothers going, how many sons and daughters do I have and measuring my effectiveness and fruitfulness?
00;17;36;00 - 00;18;05;24
Bruce Friesen
And I'm not even saying that I'm reproducing my gift, but they're true fathers and mothers or the reproduction dynamic of I love this of, let's say, making disciples. I like the concept of making the site learners and not just disciples. So Paul says to Timothy second, Timothy to saying that as a beloved father, my dear son Timothy, that's what you've heard me teach in a multitude of witnesses.
00;18;05;24 - 00;18;33;09
Bruce Friesen
I want you to now be a father to entrust to reliable men who are qualified to teach others. We could see this as a leadership pipeline or generational succession, but it's for generations. Paul is a father telling his son, You're mature enough now you need to teach, invest in the qualified others, and to them those that are qualified and have the ability to teach and the others.
00;18;33;11 - 00;19;05;22
Bruce Friesen
And you really when you have four generations, you have a movement. And so it's like looking at a baby. The highest thing is to be fought, the sons and daughters to be growing into becoming fathers and mothers, and that being measured by not let's see how many churches we planted, how many ministries or organization we built, but how many people have we reproduced ourselves into, and that we have sons and daughters.
00;19;05;24 - 00;19;30;02
Murray Dueck
And it's such a such a foreign concept. I don't know if everybody gets how foreign that is. It's such a brilliant way of thinking of stifled ministry here. You know, it's it's but it's application to, you know, and, you know, I'll just throw this out. I remember Father Mike saying to me I was picking a fight with him and I'm just going to throw this out here to give it a little bit of context.
00;19;30;04 - 00;19;53;25
Murray Dueck
And I remember I said, Why do you lock all your best people up in monasteries? You Well, we don't lock them up. You know, I you know how I like to pick fights. So I always come on, what language can I use to really dig you up? So. So he goes, Well, these people, they pray for 20 or 30 or more years and you can go hang out with them and you'll become friends with one of them and they'll become a spiritual mum and dad in your life.
00;19;53;25 - 00;20;19;22
Murray Dueck
For the rest of your life. How do you find spiritual mums and dads and your church culture? And I'm like, I have no answer to this because we don't. Right? But in some ways what you're talking about is taking five fold ministry to be mums and dads like that, like two up and coming, right? And because most of the time I think in our Western culture we work, pastors got a vision.
00;20;19;27 - 00;20;37;23
Murray Dueck
I go to the church, I do his vision. That guy is close to God, he's got a vision. So therefore if I want to be close to God, that guy is close to God. I do his vision and, you know, visionary leaders tend to be so friendly while they're recruiting you, but often once they do, they move on to recruit new people.
00;20;37;25 - 00;20;47;23
Murray Dueck
Right? So because the vision is the baby, not the people being disciple. And so what you're thinking is pretty radical.
00;20;47;25 - 00;21;14;23
Bruce Friesen
Absolutely. And we've got to recognize, you know, the vision may be from God and but it's there to be able to serve God. And we may have the primary vision and be the custodian of the DNA, because I think apostles are the custodian of the DNA. But I think that it should be helping everybody, finding their vocational identity and calling on the development of their spiritual gifts.
00;21;14;23 - 00;21;38;02
Bruce Friesen
The fueling that comes from knowing your motivational gifts of what brings you right and if we are able to bring those three elements together, I think that we're one. And people define their place, that they're they're a piece of the puzzle and they're a part of it, that they find their life and their identity and their fulfillment and their vision, maybe within the vision.
00;21;38;05 - 00;21;58;26
Bruce Friesen
And if they're not a fit that we send them to, maybe, you know what? Maybe you're going to be work, invest and really thrive if you start working with a Josh offered because this is who Josh is. And then I think maybe there going to be, you know, like pursue a synergistic relationship with people have a collaborative heart.
00;21;58;28 - 00;22;31;18
Bruce Friesen
Sure. Common values and goals. That's my sequential internal checklist. Yeah there's there's the relationship. That's great. I'm bringing out the best in them, the bringing out the best in me. We're inspiring one another. Then can we collaborate of doing work together? And I go, No, we can't. This is a great friendship, but the working relationship isn't there. But if we can collaborate together and we have common values and goals, all my four points of a checklist of sequential order are there.
00;22;31;20 - 00;23;01;12
Bruce Friesen
Because if that's there, then there's exponential kingdom potential for acceleration and multiplication. And so I'm looking I'm looking still for events in the kingdom. I know it's the relationship and I feel like maybe the metrics for the greatest success is how much of I reproduce by self and others and how much I do. I have a father's heart that I want everybody that I am reproducing myself in to go farther than me.
00;23;01;14 - 00;23;25;27
Bruce Friesen
Because I'll have I'll say, Murray, you know the story. I don't know if Josh, you do, but I've been in the places where I feel thought I had a spiritual father and that loved me and cared for me and wanted just my best interest and gave me a lot of space other than when I feel like my favor and my influence started to exceed theirs.
00;23;26;00 - 00;23;49;05
Bruce Friesen
And I was being given invitations. They would invite people to do a conference. These people would connect with me and my wife, Lorraine, and I'd be getting the invitations to the conferences with them, or even though I'm maybe an associate and I'm not even the primary leader, I'm invited to be the leader of the ministerial in our city.
00;23;49;08 - 00;24;02;06
Bruce Friesen
I've been given opportunities locally and global that they had aspired to, and that once that continued to happen in a repeated way, the empty and the jealousy that crept in.
00;24;02;09 - 00;24;02;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right was.
00;24;03;01 - 00;24;20;16
Bruce Friesen
Difficult. And so it revealed to me what I thought was the father really wasn't the father. I want to say, just for those of you that might be listening and knowing some of what I'm talking about, my friendship and relationship with this person is really good. Now.
00;24;20;18 - 00;24;21;26
Murray Dueck
That's wonderful.
00;24;21;28 - 00;24;53;03
Bruce Friesen
It is. And I've had similar experiences in other relationships where, whether envy or jealousy or selfish ambition, this is what James says. This is why this wars and arguments among us, because of our motivations, which he says are demonic envy, jealousy, selfish ambition of why they start breaking apart. It's not that we don't understand each other and we're thinking differently and valuing differently.
00;24;53;05 - 00;25;16;23
Bruce Friesen
It's about the dynamic of the motivation that makes something demonic and makes it dangerous. So when they're building the Tower of Babel, they're building that fire to make a name for themselves. And they don't want to be ordered because they want to have influence over these people. And God says if they do this, if they do this in a united way, nothing will be impossible for them.
00;25;16;26 - 00;25;51;02
Bruce Friesen
So what does God do? God gives them different languages. Why they don't understand one another and they are scattered. And the work, because of the motivation being idolatrous and the empire building, it's destroying anything that is building an empire and is about building a name for ourselves. What happens is eventually we don't understand each other. I want to say the lack of understanding in a relationship is not just about the dynamic of language.
00;25;51;04 - 00;26;22;07
Bruce Friesen
The main undergirding thing that you can't come to a place of understanding one another is of either me or the other person. Those models of envy, jealousy or selfish ambition. One or more of those motives are there, and those motivations are demonic. And it will the work that you're doing will collapse. And I think the dynamic of the maturity of the five fold, they help keep the unity of the faith.
00;26;22;10 - 00;26;51;07
Bruce Friesen
There's an increase of the knowledge of the Son of God, and there's a technique to maturity where we can work with one another. So if we start thinking in terms of maybe the relational issues, aren't the differences just of values or of lack of different language, but but even if they are different, if we can't resolve it, it's because there's some underlying unseen issues that are related to motivation that we consider and understand each other.
00;26;51;09 - 00;27;25;28
Bruce Friesen
But if you stay at the table, then you're wanting to understand. You're first seeking to listen and understand before being heard and understood. You'll come to a place of unity, even though you might be in disagreement. But if you have an idolatrous motivation that's connected with envy, jealousy and selfish ambition, usually those relationships don't get resolved. They're broken down from somebody inside and they come and say, You know what?
00;27;26;00 - 00;27;37;05
Bruce Friesen
I just realized I was so full of envy and jealousy and I let it get the best of me. I hope this is making sense and I hope anybody watching this maybe.
00;27;37;06 - 00;28;01;03
Murray Dueck
I think I think it's really help. Yeah. Just just from the point of view of because you're thinking apostolic. I mean, as you're talking, I, I find myself listening to somebody who is functioning as an apostle in their thinking. Right. And, and you're, you're describing how to work things out, to build unity, to keep the ball going down the road, to see everybody come into their into their colleague.
00;28;01;10 - 00;28;11;08
Murray Dueck
I mean, that that that's apostolic thinking or how I think apostolic thinking should be right. So Joshua, I have one more question I want to ask. Unless, you know.
00;28;11;08 - 00;28;15;01
Joshua Hoffert
You're you go ahead. You're asking the questions that I would be asking. So go.
00;28;15;06 - 00;28;17;19
Murray Dueck
okay. So so have you just said what is.
00;28;17;19 - 00;28;25;00
Bruce Friesen
So prophetic for Joshua House?
00;28;25;02 - 00;28;26;20
Murray Dueck
He is by.
00;28;26;22 - 00;28;26;28
Bruce Friesen
God.
00;28;26;28 - 00;28;29;03
Joshua Hoffert
So we are.
00;28;29;06 - 00;28;56;21
Murray Dueck
Doesn't know this every week. I just look into his eyes. So. So okay so that's kind of how I'm tracking this is is I see apostolic application happening in front of me so and this is boiled down then to these four things you look for are you've mentioned it a couple of times that these four things you look for in relationship, in building who you can work with, who you connect with.
00;28;56;26 - 00;29;03;17
Murray Dueck
Could you go over those things in some little bit more specific? Because I think that type of story I think is I've.
00;29;03;17 - 00;29;38;14
Bruce Friesen
Developed other internal checklists over time, but I feel like the Holy Spirit is given. So when we were in Brazil, this started developing. So I went there with Michel Megawati. We're speaking in universities and government leaders. It was, I think, ten cities in eight days, so multiple universities, multiple different diverse settings. And we're looking for people that are going to have the same heart for education revolution, for having a revolution within the university or the education system.
00;29;38;17 - 00;29;47;28
Bruce Friesen
So we've got a place now, I would say the name I'll just say it's the largest university in South America and I won't tell you the name, but if.
00;29;48;00 - 00;29;49;09
Murray Dueck
You look at Google later.
00;29;49;13 - 00;30;22;21
Bruce Friesen
At the competency and the capacity of this university, and they would be having the greatest potential by if we use competency and capacity to be able to integrate and disseminate the concepts of education, revolution and racial says what do you think? I said, Well, they have the competency and the capacity. They may even have the character to a certain extent, but they don't have the commitment, the kingdom concept of the commitment that I think that we need to be looking for.
00;30;22;24 - 00;30;51;12
Bruce Friesen
And everywhere we went, then it started I started looking at character, competency, capacity and commitment. And we actually ended with a group that they had 153 acres, but they didn't have a university, they only had a plant really. And God said, This is who you're supposed to work with, all right. Because they have the checklist of the character competency, capacity, commitment.
00;30;51;12 - 00;31;02;05
Bruce Friesen
And now I call it my four seed checklist or or see the future. That's right. I know somebody like Bob Jones.
00;31;02;05 - 00;31;06;27
Murray Dueck
Now you're a prophetic guy. We would have all taken it first if we would have known.
00;31;06;28 - 00;31;08;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;31;08;15 - 00;31;20;12
Bruce Friesen
I foresee things by looking Is there the character, the competency, the capacity of the commitment, because the eyes of the Lord are searching throughout the whole earth to show himself strong. Not us, but himself strong.
00;31;20;13 - 00;31;20;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;31;20;27 - 00;31;55;15
Bruce Friesen
On behalf of those whose hearts are fully committed to him right. And so the commitment to me is the sealer. But I'm even I look at it in that order. But there the bottom line is the commitment. But I would say people that I'm working with, I call it networking alliances and partnerships. So network, whether apostolic or prophetic people or in particular those that are working in Kingdom Transformation and spheres of influence, I'll network with all of those.
00;31;55;18 - 00;32;29;07
Bruce Friesen
But an alliance is I'm actually willing to do work with them events that are temporary. So there's got to be enough of my check list of synergy, collaboration, values, goals to be able to work with them. But I won't form a partnership with anybody of this incredible close covenant relationships where we partner on on everything and that we're like equal partners and all the partners are equal partners and equal stakeholders.
00;32;29;09 - 00;32;52;01
Bruce Friesen
And so there's a reason I'm saying these elements, because as you can see, I have a few of them, but they, they even work together. So my partnerships is what I'm looking for the most is the people that can be the partnership and the partnerships have the character, the competency, the capacity, commitment. But most of all, if there's synergy.
00;32;52;06 - 00;33;24;01
Bruce Friesen
So synergy is sometimes defined as or described as two chemicals mixed together that greatly enhanced each other's effectiveness and thereby they also create something new by that chemistry. So if the synergies there and we're bringing out the best in each other, then I look at can we collaborate, can we work together or are they going to be dominating?
00;33;24;03 - 00;33;43;17
Bruce Friesen
Are they are they wanted to be in control of direction and can we really collaborate and work together? Then other common values of not only I used to be drawn by if we had people that people have the same vision, I was drawn to them.
00;33;43;19 - 00;33;44;25
Murray Dueck
00;33;44;27 - 00;34;07;22
Bruce Friesen
But as I walked with them, unless how can to walk together, unless they agreed, I realized, well, it's not agreement on the vision. It's agreement on the values, values of how we're going to just the values of how we're going to do it. It's not sometimes the values can be wrong. Sometimes they're just so different that it still doesn't work.
00;34;07;24 - 00;34;08;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah, for sure.
00;34;08;23 - 00;34;44;22
Bruce Friesen
So the values have to be there and then there has to be common goals. But I say if there is a synergistic relationship with somebody who has a collaborative heart and we share common values and common goals, there can be exponential kingdom potential and acceleration and multiplication. So I'm looking for the relationships, first of all, that they're synergistic in their collaborative common values, common goals Goal Kim en route calls it Revelation Ships.
00;34;44;25 - 00;35;18;27
Bruce Friesen
And I'll go for whether you guys whether for me of those listening unquote if you don't have a significant prophetic revelatory direction I'll look for the relationships. And the relationships Are God leading you? Who are the people that bring out the best in you and you bring out the best in them. You really together, you have each other's effectiveness and then experiment product, collaborate on a project and of that, do something together.
00;35;19;00 - 00;35;24;07
Bruce Friesen
See how well you work together because you know there's so much hope when there's synergy.
00;35;24;10 - 00;35;25;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;35;25;03 - 00;35;52;18
Bruce Friesen
And then you move to collaboration. You go, you either go, I don't know, or you'll say, This is awesome. And so it's moving along those lines because I'll tell you, when you are there, you're going to be the most satisfied because you're created to bear fruit for the glory of God. And it's not just about the king, the vision, the bit we're drawn together to one another because of sharing common visions.
00;35;52;20 - 00;36;18;16
Bruce Friesen
But when those the synergy of those, the collaboration and the values and the goals, it's the relationships that keep you together. It's the relationships that determine whether the things going to succeed. When I'm valuing and my identity is wrapped up into my piece of the vision and that success is more important to me. And my identity is there rather than in the Lord and in my relationships.
00;36;18;18 - 00;36;24;29
Bruce Friesen
I will exploit, I will manipulate, use you guys, your time, your energy, your gifts.
00;36;25;02 - 00;36;27;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Josh, he's going to use you may.
00;36;27;28 - 00;36;31;11
Bruce Friesen
Be able to fulfill the vision that I have from God.
00;36;31;13 - 00;36;32;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right?
00;36;33;00 - 00;36;56;01
Bruce Friesen
Because you exist to fulfill the vision that Mark's given me. Because I have the vision. And that's what you guys are here for, is to help me fulfill. That was I think about the stoic father is wanting to find out what's in the people. And I may have a vision, but I want to be able to find out if this is a fit of us being a partner and why and what you do in working together.
00;36;56;04 - 00;36;59;17
Bruce Friesen
If not, I want to redirect you. Instead of trying to harvest you.
00;36;59;19 - 00;37;03;13
Joshua Hoffert
You might and not be harnessed.
00;37;03;13 - 00;37;33;25
Bruce Friesen
We're going to be harnessed together side by side, you know. And so those are the relationships that I think we need to be able to look for. And then when you find them, it is so good. So every organization that I'm a part of now, those elements are there. I've been a part of organizations that are focused on transformation and it's Soul Kingdom, the stories, the elements.
00;37;33;27 - 00;37;56;11
Bruce Friesen
But there's still an empire building sort of mentality on the meter. It's his vision, it's his baby, and everybody exists to serve his baby and his vision because his life and identity is in this thing instead of our life and identities in the Lord directly and the grace that we experience in a relationship with one another.
00;37;56;13 - 00;37;57;27
Murray Dueck
Amen.
00;37;58;00 - 00;37;58;18
Bruce Friesen
This is why I.
00;37;58;18 - 00;37;59;22
Murray Dueck
Love that Grace.
00;37;59;25 - 00;38;16;21
Bruce Friesen
Community. And just because we have dysfunctional, unhealthy community, we can't give up on community. We can't give up on the body. But I tell you, I haven't given up. But I sure have. I'm sure have developed internal checklists.
00;38;16;24 - 00;38;17;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;38;17;14 - 00;38;24;18
Bruce Friesen
And my my bells and whistles and red flags go off way quicker than he used to.
00;38;24;21 - 00;38;25;20
Murray Dueck
All right.
00;38;25;23 - 00;38;59;16
Joshua Hoffert
You know, it's one of my favorite passages in in scripture just in the last couple months has been just so appreciate what you're saying has been Romans 16. It's one of those chapters that I've typically read right through as quick as possible, you know, and then because it as you're talking, it just reminds me of Paul and one of my favorite biblical characters right now is Eponymous who Paul says is his beloved, who has the first fruits in a car.
00;38;59;19 - 00;39;23;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right. It it's Paul had such an affection for a for this and he talks about it throughout Romans 16. But the affection he has for the people that he walks with and he works he works with. And so what you're describing to me is exactly what I see in Paul. There is these are people I have a deep affection for that I trust I'm committed to the work with.
00;39;23;26 - 00;39;43;29
Joshua Hoffert
And and we do everything together. You know, he talks about Priscilla and Aquila, who stuck their necks out for me. Yes. And I you just I've read it so much through his. You know, I used to read Paul as the visionary leader who was key to the end goal. Right. And I'm starting to read Paul as the affectionate father who loved the people.
00;39;43;29 - 00;39;59;13
Joshua Hoffert
He walked with so much so that he has multiple people in Romans 16 that we only know them because he mentioned them as his beloved. And that's it. Yeah. And his and it sounds to he's like, I'm commending these people to you because I love them, not because they're a great gift.
00;39;59;15 - 00;40;00;11
Murray Dueck
They work so hard.
00;40;00;12 - 00;40;29;28
Joshua Hoffert
I wanted or they work so hard. He's just I just love them and so I'm seeing Paul the father more than Paul, the quote unquote apostle, apostolic visionary leader. And I love I love what you're saying that and and and it's just it's like it's like when you hear biblical truths brought to light. MURRAY And I've said this a number of times, it's like you just go, that just feels right.
00;40;30;00 - 00;40;55;24
Joshua Hoffert
And it brings a sense of peace and calm where where, you know, in apostolic ministry or faithful ministry, it's say it's that you had said I was thinking this earlier as you were talking about it, that we've got a world where what you're seeing is a move away from an apostle as a functional role. Yeah, well, this is my functions and now I build everything around it.
00;40;55;26 - 00;41;17;08
Joshua Hoffert
And one of the things we've said in the prophetic manifesto is that gifts are not a reason to build a platform. And the and so that's, you know, that's one of the one of the things that we're saying. But what I see you saying is that this is far more you can't help but be an apostle. It's just I look and I see solutions that need to happen.
00;41;17;10 - 00;41;43;27
Joshua Hoffert
You don't go, well, now someone prophesied it or I read about it or I thought about it and I'm building a ministry. But you look and you see this. I can't help but be this person because this is who the father is wired me to be. So I just love Bruce. What you're saying, it's it's, you know, I'm listening going, I need to listen to this again, because I can see a way of thinking that I don't think like that I'm attracted to.
00;41;43;27 - 00;41;44;16
Joshua Hoffert
So a.
00;41;44;17 - 00;41;45;24
Murray Dueck
Man. Yeah.
00;41;45;27 - 00;41;48;09
Bruce Friesen
And I asked to ask you a question.
00;41;48;11 - 00;41;49;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yup.
00;41;49;20 - 00;42;02;06
Bruce Friesen
Murray can answer too. But what is the most intimate, demonstratively affectionate chapter in the Bible?
00;42;02;08 - 00;42;05;05
Joshua Hoffert
Just a single chapter. We have to go with.
00;42;05;07 - 00;42;06;14
Bruce Friesen
Chapter.
00;42;06;17 - 00;42;26;00
Joshua Hoffert
And oak. I mean, I've got probably three that I'm thinking of off the top of my head, the one being the Last Supper, and then the other one being Song of Solomon one. So what do you think, Murray?
00;42;26;02 - 00;42;42;27
Murray Dueck
Believe it or not, off the top of my head, thinking about how Paul is writing the letter and what he's saying to the people, believe it or not, I would go with Ephesians one. The word lavish loves with all understanding, putting this upon you.
00;42;42;29 - 00;42;49;27
Joshua Hoffert
Is that What are you talking about in the King James or the passion translation.
00;42;49;29 - 00;42;58;10
Bruce Friesen
This is just for this is just for fun. And yeah, it may not even be accurate, but I say the passage that what you just said. Romans 16.
00;42;58;12 - 00;42;58;29
Joshua Hoffert
Okay.
00;42;59;01 - 00;43;03;17
Bruce Friesen
Right. It's something like 20 some odd times that he says, Greet one another.
00;43;03;19 - 00;43;04;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;43;04;22 - 00;43;34;07
Bruce Friesen
One another actually means to enfold in the arms. It's fully embracing. Yeah, it's completely accepted. It's celebrating somebody with incredible affection. Wow. It's like the person you love maybe the most. And you haven't seen them for ten years. 20 years. And so when you look at the amount of times that he says to greet one another in Romans 16, it's mind boggling.
00;43;34;07 - 00;43;38;18
Bruce Friesen
But Greek is such an inadequate.
00;43;38;20 - 00;43;40;12
Murray Dueck
for sure. Swear that expert.
00;43;40;14 - 00;44;09;12
Bruce Friesen
Interpretation to what it actually means. It's like this incredible excitement of you just are not with the arm it says it's enfolded them in the arms and it's like a full embrace. But it's also say, I fully accept you. I completely celebrate you. It's the excitement of seeing the person that you just so dearly love and so close to it.
00;44;09;19 - 00;44;21;09
Bruce Friesen
But you haven't seen for a long time in Greek. Had a nice insider so far Greek. You know the list and you when you look at the word do the Greek search on it.
00;44;21;11 - 00;44;22;22
Joshua Hoffert
They will.
00;44;22;25 - 00;44;36;06
Bruce Friesen
man, this is the most demonstrably affectionate passenger in the Bible. Right. And you do see the father heart of Paul, and not just the vision, but I think these things might be inside.
00;44;36;09 - 00;44;37;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah.
00;44;37;21 - 00;44;42;13
Murray Dueck
Wow, That's so cool. Just see that right there of us.
00;44;42;17 - 00;45;13;24
Bruce Friesen
Coming up, one in the Old Testament. We see again the tabernacle in the wilderness worship, the possessing the land, common enemy for common inheritance, warfare, building the wall around Jerusalem taught of been a common benefit for eight common work. So I say worship, warfare and work are the three temple objectives cause us to be one we need worship or for work is the only way that we can be one.
00;45;13;26 - 00;45;41;04
Bruce Friesen
So the kingdom and that's the vision of Paul, the depth of the relationship that he feels the most affection for the ones that are the most kingdom committed to the vision. So I don't think there's a separation that we can write. We just see relationships instead of pursuing the kingdom and pursuing Jesus, we're never going to have the quality and the health of the relationships, right?
00;45;41;04 - 00;46;06;21
Bruce Friesen
Just pursuing happiness apart from seeking first the kingdom. And then this happiness being some of the things that you have need of will be added to you. I would say the same thing is if we're genuinely pursuing the kingdom and not our kingdom but his kingdom, that we're determined, like David's meant to make David King and establish his kingdom.
00;46;06;23 - 00;46;18;05
Bruce Friesen
Christ is king, but we want it to be seen as king and we want to see his kingdom established on Earth as it is in heaven. I'll tell you the quality of our relationships are incredible.
00;46;18;07 - 00;46;29;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Wow. That's that is saying goodbye. Yeah, well, with that, I was just going to say with that, I think we'll call the episode to a close that that's just.
00;46;29;29 - 00;46;32;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I have to go see a doctor. I got an appointment so Yeah.
00;46;32;16 - 00;46;40;02
Joshua Hoffert
So we've got, we've got now we've got lots of stuff to process off to have. Yeah. That Bruce back. We already have. We get married.
00;46;40;04 - 00;47;07;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You're going to have to have me back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just to break down again. Everyone, if you listen to this, I hope you can listen to it twice and just listen to too. Bruce Apostolic an application for what's going on. But then look how he's processing it. And it's not just about division, it's about, it's about who is there too, and how they're connecting.
00;47;07;11 - 00;47;17;21
Murray Dueck
And it's quite brilliant, right? So, yeah, and you know, just these lists that you're going through and how you develop them and life experience, we need to just come back and talk about.
00;47;17;21 - 00;47;20;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right. That's okay. So anyway.
00;47;20;11 - 00;47;20;29
Murray Dueck
I have to Right.
00;47;21;03 - 00;47;28;12
Joshua Hoffert
We're having we're going to have Bruce back on. Thanks so much, Bruce, for coming on. Thanks, Murray. So next time.