In part 2, Ryan dives into catching a vision for who God has made you to be, dealing with the hooks of the enemy, building culture, the difference between purpose and calling, and much more. Tune in!
Church Untitled is a gathering place in downtown Vancouver, BC. In the midst of a busy city rife with an increasingly antagonistic culture, this church is building an altar of worship in the downtown core. Ryan Johnson, the pastor of Church Untitled, never envisioned himself as a church planter. In fact, the church began out of deep brokenness and hurt. This is his story, and the story of those who are gathering in the downtown core of one of the most bustling cities on the West Coast of North America.
Join Joshua and Murray as they welcome Ryan on the show. You'll laugh, you'll cry, but mostly you'll see the faithfulness of God to see the treasure in a young man who was struggling to find himself and the call of God on his life. Seriously. Listen to this episode.
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
For more about Ryan and Church Untitled, visit: https://www.churchuntitled.com/
In part 2, Ryan dives into catching a vision for who God has made you to be, dealing with the hooks of the enemy, building culture, the difference between purpose and calling, and much more. Tune in!
Church Untitled is a gathering place in downtown Vancouver, BC. In the midst of a busy city rife with an increasingly antagonistic culture, this church is building an altar of worship in the downtown core. Ryan Johnson, the pastor of Church Untitled, never envisioned himself as a church planter. In fact, the church began out of deep brokenness and hurt. This is his story, and the story of those who are gathering in the downtown core of one of the most bustling cities on the West Coast of North America.
Join Joshua and Murray as they welcome Ryan on the show. You'll laugh, you'll cry, but mostly you'll see the faithfulness of God to see the treasure in a young man who was struggling to find himself and the call of God on his life. Seriously. Listen to this episode.
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
For more about Ryan and Church Untitled, visit: https://www.churchuntitled.com/
00;00;20;16 - 00;00;38;05
Ryan Johnson
You just lost track. Wow. Very good. Yeah. And so that's been our journey for stuff, no matter the cost. Get out of step as it happens. Okay, You go back.
00;00;38;07 - 00;01;03;24
Joshua Hoffert
To the cloud, which is where the core values us. I want someone. I'm walking with this. Why is your shirt? That's local to me. And not far away.
00;01;03;27 - 00;01;29;25
Murray Dueck
Well, you know, the other powerful thing mean I'll just make this statement is you don't even pursue it. But, you know, when you look at right now, unfortunately, where we're all looking at what's happening in Kansas City and, you know, make fits and all that stuff, and and and so often we don't understand that, I think because so many people are like, I can't listen to his voice anymore and I'm deleting all the apps.
00;01;29;25 - 00;01;49;12
Murray Dueck
I just had this conversation with someone today and like everything that was ever said here is now false. And I can't, you know what? What am I going to do? And and the ability to realize God works with broken people and he just wants to be with people so badly that that, you know, he's in the midst of broken people as God.
00;01;49;20 - 00;02;12;04
Murray Dueck
I remember Graham Cooke saying, If you ever find the perfect church, don't go there, you'll ruin it. You know, it's but to be able to navigate where we're finding the spirit of God, having it change your life, and then realizing there's broken messiness all around it and being able to somehow separate that out, that one doesn't quite disqualify the other.
00;02;12;07 - 00;02;22;16
Murray Dueck
But in fact, God is happy. He doesn't like the mess, but he's a companion in the journey through the mess. And and to hear that through this is quite encouraging.
00;02;22;19 - 00;02;23;11
Joshua Hoffert
It is.
00;02;23;13 - 00;02;24;16
Murray Dueck
Encouraging.
00;02;24;18 - 00;02;44;02
Ryan Johnson
You. Yeah, Well, I mean, I think there's there's moments in my story where, you know, for example, you set out to do what God's called you to do, and then it becomes the most painful thing you've ever done because it exposes the spaces in you that are not yet living into the thing that he's called you to. Right.
00;02;44;09 - 00;03;02;26
Ryan Johnson
And that's that's the beauty of of God, I think of the story in in Old Testament word where they're on their journey and it says the stages of the journey of things and at numbers which is and God brought them to this place where there was no water. Yes. Why? Why, why are you highlighting that blip on the radar God in your in your word?
00;03;02;26 - 00;03;26;03
Ryan Johnson
It seems like you've used bad leadership. No, but this led them to a place. That's right. They did. They did not have what they needed to survive. And all the sudden, right next to slavery. Well, what what, what what were they deprived of? Most likely, if they were not performing well or doing well at being slaves, I probably am not going to give you water.
00;03;26;05 - 00;03;42;24
Ryan Johnson
I'm not going to give you the things you need and your God brings them to this place and brings up all of this stuff is better than this. Go back to Egypt right? But then we see that God in that space of need reveals Christ. We see inner strength is like the rock, right? Reveals himself in that place.
00;03;42;24 - 00;04;05;04
Ryan Johnson
And I think that's what he does for us in our lives. Is he as a good shepherd, brings us to these places in our hearts that actually don't have room for him because of pain, because of unmet expectations and so on and so forth. Yeah. And he lets us encounter exposes that place. Right? And oftentimes it's like, you know, Satan's exposure in a sense.
00;04;05;12 - 00;04;06;01
Murray Dueck
for sure. Right.
00;04;06;01 - 00;04;36;21
Ryan Johnson
Where where the Satan is as city like we put like in the shifting gods, God's desire, intention is to heal. The enemy wants to expose for shame, God wants to expose to you. And so I think that's that's the journey of the story of like, are we partnering with God in that space? Are we are we continue to try to keep that stuff aside in a way, or are we allowing the exposure to be something we bring to the Lord so he can heal it because that's how he fathers is what he does, right?
00;04;36;24 - 00;04;51;13
Ryan Johnson
There's things operating in us that don't allow his word to take root. He's going to, as a good, good farmer, a good gardener, to go to those every rock in our heart that can't receive his word and deal with it. But it requires our partnership.
00;04;51;15 - 00;05;07;27
Murray Dueck
You know, it's a it's a funny thing, you know, when you read scripture and it took me a long time to get this. That was it. Matthew 1516 somewhere right there where where the Pharisees are criticizing you. Why do your disciples, you know, eat the grains without washing their hands? And why do you, you know, blah, blah, blah?
00;05;07;27 - 00;05;23;12
Murray Dueck
And and, you know, Peter says, you know, why did you say these things to Jesus? Very, you know, encapsulating? And he says, it's not the things that are outside things at the file of man, it's the things that come out right. Right. And it's it's funny that in our culture, usually we, you know, talking about this, we look at all this stuff.
00;05;23;12 - 00;05;42;19
Murray Dueck
Well, you caused this to happen. You did this. And we're not not understanding that it's actually coming out of our own hearts. You know, all the bitter and anger and rage and and that and to be able to to find the father in the midst of that. I mean, that just happens throughout your story. Again and again, which is brilliant.
00;05;42;22 - 00;05;59;08
Murray Dueck
I mean, you know, to put it in a nutshell, you know, I, I think I'm a pretty good driver. I just have this thing. I don't know why and and and which makes me really critical of everybody else. You know, that guy is too slow. That guy's too fast. Who is that person? Mercedes drivers. Lord have mercy on me.
00;05;59;08 - 00;06;23;05
Murray Dueck
You know, it's until one day I slid through a stop side in the ice, and the guy that was passing me looked at me through the window and he goes, you know, he's like, that was embarrassing, you know? And you know what? I didn't criticize everybody driving for about a week. I was like, I learned a few things like, well, that, you know, I feel sorry for you because I got a good look at my own heart, you know?
00;06;23;08 - 00;06;41;25
Murray Dueck
And and so you just I don't know how much more time we have, but I'm going to ask this question. So with your own experience of walking people through brokenness, letting stuff of their heart come up and not saying, look at the junk in you, like, Hey, how are you going to find that father here? Like, because because, you know, like you said, you could accuse and point out the enemy, right?
00;06;41;26 - 00;06;58;11
Murray Dueck
Or Yeah. Or you could go, okay, how is a father going to heal? What's coming up in you? You know, this isn't happening externally. This is exposing internal stuff. Yeah. And how are you doing that in your body? How how is that happening in church? Untitled. Because all this stuff is still going on in everybody's hearts all the time.
00;06;58;11 - 00;07;04;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You know, How do you find yourself applying that? I mean, I hope I'm sorry of that question.
00;07;04;05 - 00;07;29;28
Ryan Johnson
No, it's okay. Yeah. No, I think I think a big one for me. I maybe I mean, my personality or my gifting or just some of the positive is vision when you can see obviously in Christ who you've been meant to become. Then you can track, you can measure. Like if you go this way, are you are you moving towards that vision or you are becoming more like him now?
00;07;30;00 - 00;07;43;12
Ryan Johnson
Becoming more like him is is you know, sometimes we wrestle with that because it's kind of what does that even mean? Become like Jesus. But I had a friend, Nate Edwards in in Redding. He says this. He says, The more you look like Jesus, the more you look like yourself.
00;07;44;03 - 00;07;45;10
Murray Dueck
brilliant. Nice.
00;07;45;12 - 00;08;03;20
Ryan Johnson
And so you're not. You're not saying I have, you know, any harps on, like, the less of me and more of him thing, right? Like, it's the more of him, the more of me. Not not in that I'm God in my life. But. Yeah, yeah, I become. I become who I've been born to be, Right? Because my paradigm is that Jesus came to show us what it means to be human.
00;08;03;23 - 00;08;05;09
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. And fully guys.
00;08;05;11 - 00;08;05;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;08;05;26 - 00;08;32;09
Ryan Johnson
Fully satisfied. So if we have a vision for what life is like in him, which is, as I mentioned, there any peace, joy, satisfaction, fulfillment, if we believe that following Jesus is a pathway to fulfillment, not this worldly fulfillment. Right. So making Him why I'm fully alive, then then we will align everything towards that end. Like when the scriptures say nothing else, satisfied or you love is better than life.
00;08;32;11 - 00;08;54;02
Ryan Johnson
Like, that's extreme language. But I found that to be true. So even if I'm confronted with pain, whether it's mine or someone else's, if my desire, my goal that I'm aiming at is like to to deliver the fulfillment and satisfaction Jesus said he came to bring us, then I'm going to align everything towards that end. So for me, it's vision.
00;08;54;05 - 00;09;19;07
Ryan Johnson
If we have a vision for for where we're going, then we align everything with that vision. Well, so I got Jesus language right if you want if you want to be my disciple. But he sets the conversation up. If you actually want to go down this route, here's what it's going to look like. And you know, when you want to lean into bitterness, when you want to leave it being, it's anger and strife and all of these things, self-preservation, you guys deny that stuff.
00;09;19;09 - 00;09;42;09
Ryan Johnson
But it's not denial unto denial. It's denial into a greater vision. Right When they held up against the other. You have one to choose. And so again, father's love in and what it means to be a son and like that to me is become the marker. Like there's nothing greater than knowing who you are in it. I just found that to be true.
00;09;42;12 - 00;10;05;27
Ryan Johnson
And when something comes and tries to compromise that or tell me something other than that, then that's the space that I got to step up and live from what he's already shown me. Or if I don't feel like I'm equipped to ask for it. And so it just becomes that. And so for me, visions number one, like I don't preach to the people in our church, like, like it's their first day in church.
00;10;05;29 - 00;10;26;02
Ryan Johnson
I preach like, like Jesus in the room right now and like, I don't care where you are, if you just get a glimpse of him in the fall, who he is. I'm not trying to paint him a different way. I'm not trying to cover up these things like this is who he is. If that's what you heart wants, then let's go after, right?
00;10;26;04 - 00;10;27;02
Ryan Johnson
Wow.
00;10;27;04 - 00;10;48;14
Joshua Hoffert
That's interesting. I remember listening to a a it was an Instagram just a little cut from some prophetic guy saying he was he was talking about how the first thing he needed to deal with to deal with sin in the life of the people he's leading is vision gone? His his and his point. And this is where I'm I love what you've just clarified.
00;10;48;14 - 00;11;08;27
Joshua Hoffert
His point wasn't the vision of God. It was the vision of all the great things you're going to accomplish in your life. And so his point was, the bigger you see your calling, you know, verses, you know, maybe we can use that language versus vision. The less you're going to sin because you'll be too occupied with fulfilling your call.
00;11;08;29 - 00;11;39;07
Joshua Hoffert
And I and I, when I heard that, I was like, okay, whatever. But what you're saying is catching a vision of him and, you know, being convinced like, you know, this is I there's a prayer that Augustine prayed that this the whole concept reminds me of in a nutshell, and it's one of Augustine's famous prayers in the confessions.
00;11;39;09 - 00;11;49;28
Joshua Hoffert
So basically we're comparing you with one of the greatest church gods. Teach me to know myself that I might know you.
00;11;50;00 - 00;11;50;22
Ryan Johnson
Yeah.
00;11;50;25 - 00;12;16;19
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And it's. It's. Let me catch a vision of who you are. And so in catching a vision of who you are, I begin to know myself. And I can't know myself without knowing you. And I can't know you without knowing myself. Right. And this is the picture of freedom in that sense that you're saying is it is not a vision for the grand plan in your life.
00;12;16;22 - 00;12;39;25
Joshua Hoffert
It's a vision for how grand he is and all the things he's done and he's said about you and who he is and how that impacts you. It's real. And essentially it's a matter of do you believe that what he's said is actually true? Yeah. And and I think some of the language you use and I was there was what kind of hooks does the enemy have in you.
00;12;39;28 - 00;12;46;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And and how can he keep how can he pull you away from that vision of loveliness. Right.
00;12;46;24 - 00;13;04;13
Ryan Johnson
Well, that's that's like the how to function in the world without the world functioning right where Jesus comes and says the Prince of the world is coming, but he has nothing in me. Yeah, yeah. And that's that's vision for our life. Yeah. Scripture say for it is for our sake that he became sin, you know, so that we might become the righteousness of God.
00;13;04;13 - 00;13;30;10
Ryan Johnson
Like He's showing us in himself and giving us the power, providing the power by his blood for everything. Well, as he looks at the has had in our lives to be pulled out. So there's no hold. Right. So so nothing of the enemy's influence can function in you. But I just see that. And as you're saying right, like in acts it says it says that, you know, Peter's sermon, he says that he came first to bless you.
00;13;30;13 - 00;13;35;08
Ryan Johnson
Right. First to the Jews, of course. But he came to bless you by turning you from your wicked ways.
00;13;35;10 - 00;13;35;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;13;35;28 - 00;14;05;07
Ryan Johnson
Right. Like there's there's like there's there's something that stands in the way of blessing and it's written and we we label them and we have paradigms of sin in our life. But really, I think the theology there is that anything that keeps you from his blessing is something that he wants to turn you from. Right. And so turning to what I think one of the things that I've discovered is that God's plan was to build a culture of blessing.
00;14;05;09 - 00;14;26;08
Ryan Johnson
Right. That's what he was doing through Israel. I mean, first the Adam and Eve, by God, go forth and multiply and build culture like this, have it spread heaven, this garden to the ends of the earth. Right. And he keeps on bringing that back. He brings it back to, you know, it wipes out Nephilim and all. All the stuff in the world brings it back to them and then starts it again with Abraham.
00;14;26;11 - 00;14;42;04
Ryan Johnson
I'm going to bless you. So abundantly the world through you is going to be blessed right? His whole thing was a culture, a blessing. And that's influence. Culture is influence. He had the culture, the world around you, and he had a culture of his blessing. Now, the point was, is that this culture affects this culture, Right?
00;14;42;11 - 00;14;43;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;14;43;07 - 00;15;04;02
Ryan Johnson
The culture of heaven affects the culture. Reverse through Abraham. Right. Yeah. And and obviously fell completely in Jesus. But that's his agenda. That's what he's doing. He wants to he wants to bless. He wants to fill that lesson, not for self. You know, look at me, but so that the world around us can be blessed in the conversation of culture.
00;15;04;05 - 00;15;31;17
Ryan Johnson
Like there's something that he wants to do in such a solid way in his people that the world has nothing to offer. His people like the influence comes when, when, when you can't be bought. Right. Yeah. You can't you, what you have discovered is way greater than anything anybody can sell you. Right. So, so we talk about and we've talked about, you know, brought up like bitcoin, all these kind of like things that have come up.
00;15;31;17 - 00;15;45;23
Ryan Johnson
I mean, I think the Lord is, you know, is grace is sufficient. Of course, I'm not talking about salvation, but we are talking about influence. And I think for a long time there was a tolerance on the separation between external and internal.
00;15;45;26 - 00;15;46;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right?
00;15;46;26 - 00;16;00;19
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. What's actually happening in the heart versus what's happening externally? And we we've we've created room for that to flourish. I do. I do think and I believe that the Lord is is wanting the blessing to come from the inside out.
00;16;00;21 - 00;16;01;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;16;01;18 - 00;16;24;28
Ryan Johnson
And so, you know, it's not perfection, but it is it is the people who say, God, I want your life in every area of my heart and I want no hook and the enemy in there. And I believe that can be my reality, because what I see in Jesus, you mean. Yeah. Right. And so I think it's it's that high vision for what life can be, for what freedom actually looks like.
00;16;24;29 - 00;16;37;17
Ryan Johnson
You know, it's Paul's call to stand firm and freedom. And he says, don't burden yourselves again, like Christ has completely set you free. Stop getting in complicated relationships with what you've been set free from.
00;16;37;19 - 00;16;37;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;16;37;29 - 00;17;01;14
Ryan Johnson
Right. And, you know, to. To kind of give away my heart a little bit more. I mean, this to me, goes back to what? What? Yahweh assistant Abraham in Genesis 15 says, I am your shield and your very great reward. And at stake, he he speaking to the human condition where we're wired to pursue reward.
00;17;01;17 - 00;17;02;18
Joshua Hoffert
00;17;02;20 - 00;17;12;19
Ryan Johnson
And our world is beating us incessantly. Reward that dopamine. Our dopamine system is being hijacked every single day.
00;17;12;24 - 00;17;17;11
Murray Dueck
That's why Little Lane, that's the root game on my phone all the time.
00;17;17;13 - 00;17;38;08
Ryan Johnson
Exactly. Exactly. Or the Instagram scroll or like, you know, the Internet or whatever. You know, from. From from pornography to money to power to all the things. Right. Some of them are big overt. Some of them are deceptive. But even even Silicon Valley knows this. four we're wired to pursue reward. And here it is. You always seem to.
00;17;38;08 - 00;18;06;00
Ryan Johnson
Abraham, I am. You're very great reward. And so if we if we, you know, Mark in our hearts, that to be human is to the whole relationship with God is the highest reward that and becomes the vision pursuit of our lives. You know, it's Paul's statement, like I considered everything garbage for the sake of knowing him, right? He's become he's become my prize.
00;18;06;03 - 00;18;26;09
Ryan Johnson
And even suffering is is a way of knowing him more. Yeah. Because when I count the cost of suffering, I consider that worth it compared to the value that I have in Christ. Like, to me, that God is the language of my heart. Like, And again, I haven't arrived. Paul said, I'm not there yet, but I'm going to pursue it.
00;18;26;11 - 00;18;56;08
Ryan Johnson
And I've just made up in my mind and I want to lead our people towards this in the middle of our city, like Vancouver, where reward is being offered everywhere. That to be human is to have a relationship with God. Knowing him, that is the highest reward we could ever have. It's written in your genetic code, and when people actually discover that in real time by being lost with his presence is falling down their cheek, feeling his love, that's a marking moment.
00;18;56;11 - 00;19;16;28
Ryan Johnson
And it's a moment that we have to point to consistent and say, that's what God wants for you every single day, right, for the rest of your life. That is heaven. That is eternity. But what we have to do now in relationship with God is pursue it. And to say I will not pursue other sins. I will pursue him.
00;19;17;00 - 00;19;37;27
Ryan Johnson
And so this isn't piety, is not religiosity. It's actually the mark like a note literally in my biology to say, even though I've given myself two other loves in my life, even though I have rewired my brain to pursue this as reward God in his power to set me free from that stuff is giving me something better. A better reward in meant.
00;19;38;03 - 00;20;01;15
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. So even even the language. I know I'm going off this good good of Paul and for strength is not he. He talks about like even an athlete will like leverage their entire life to to to win a race, to win a crown that fades. And he's like, I don't run aimlessly like a boxer beating the air.
00;20;01;17 - 00;20;22;02
Ryan Johnson
He says, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave. That that after preaching the gospel, I might not miss out on the prize. And so I think a lot of what we shaped in the church is like the administration, the gospel being the prize, or like building church ministry or the accolades or the prize.
00;20;22;05 - 00;20;42;01
Ryan Johnson
To Paul's prize. Paul's prize is to know God. And so everything like that's the highest reward in any reward that tries to come in the way of that. It's got to go like other language from him, like, I'd rather go be with him. I really I really like peace out. But for your sake, I stay. But ultimately, you know.
00;20;42;04 - 00;21;21;02
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, I'm living for the father's will. And then we see that in Jesus, right? Like he. He lived completely and died to fulfill his father's will. That's it. And it was the love of his father that propelled him to go redeem and rescue the world. And so that's just something I can't unsee now. And I had to learn in the midst of ministry, in the midst of all this pain, in the midst of being a father, in the midst of all this stress and turmoil and all of it, what it meant to be a son.
00;21;21;05 - 00;21;42;14
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. Like, you know, I see that moment in Joshua five where where he takes Israel out of Egypt and the next generation comes and then he marks them again, is circumcised because they're about to go do ministry. They're about to go establish something. They're about to go build something. They're about to go bring this culture to the earth.
00;21;42;16 - 00;22;06;00
Ryan Johnson
But it was pertinent to that God. They knew that they were sons and not slaves anymore. Mean, I guess what they built as slaves would be dramatically different than what they built. This son he meant. And I'd say that's it. It's like nothing else matters more than me knowing who I am in him. And I'm going to build from that place.
00;22;06;00 - 00;22;37;02
Ryan Johnson
I lead from that place and establish from that place. So I can't be I can't be swayed by metrics. I can't be swayed by the world's image of success. And so my my success is in the will of my father. So that that those are the things that that has shaped me and shaped us shaped the church. And there are some crazy people out there like me that will not settle for anything less than the fullness of his promise.
00;22;37;05 - 00;22;58;04
Ryan Johnson
And some people want it otherwise. And that's okay that, you know, if that's what they've chosen, they can do that. But we don't settle for that. Yeah. So we're going to create a culture made up of people who will leverage everything to know him. And then once we do know him, we're here to fulfill his will, which then touches the Earth, transforms the city.
00;22;58;06 - 00;23;04;14
Joshua Hoffert
So you, you. I just. I just a couple more minutes, Murray. You got a couple more minutes.
00;23;04;17 - 00;23;10;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're minutes after that. You got so many more questions. I could go, like another hour.
00;23;10;26 - 00;23;34;22
Joshua Hoffert
But I love everything you just said. And it was really touching on the culture building piece that I know. Yeah. The thing that you've pursued significantly in the last seven years, and I'm sure that whole what you're articulating today and the clarity of it in the sense and I, you know, I love that, that I wrote down a note, I wrote down what you just said.
00;23;34;22 - 00;23;51;22
Joshua Hoffert
What you build as a slave is dramatically different than one you built as a son. That was so profound. And so I'm wondering, like what? Because the way you articulate it today, I'm sure, is is much clearer in your head than it was seven years ago.
00;23;51;24 - 00;23;54;26
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, absolutely. So I had to find this stuff out. Yeah.
00;23;54;28 - 00;24;11;19
Joshua Hoffert
Sure. For sure. As you're trying to figure out, who are we? Who am I? How does this all work? So you started DNA classes. DNA DNA nights with your church? Pretty. Pretty close from the get go, I think. Right. At least five or six years ago.
00;24;11;21 - 00;24;13;23
Ryan Johnson
You know, we started the magic of it. Actually.
00;24;13;26 - 00;24;22;16
Joshua Hoffert
It wasn't after Calvin. Okay, Well, I mean, you were doing culture coaching with your team before COVID. Is that what I.
00;24;22;16 - 00;24;28;26
Ryan Johnson
Think cultures and cultures kind of like? You know, something we've had an eye on, of course. Organization. How did.
00;24;28;26 - 00;24;49;16
Joshua Hoffert
Was this? How did that? Where was the where were where were the beginning parts of, we actually need to form something here that people can draw on that inform us who we are of who we are. And because you do that really well at this point, right. And I'm sure in ten years you'll do it even better.
00;24;49;17 - 00;24;57;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right. That and but you do it better than you do it today than you did when you first started. So what what were some of.
00;24;57;04 - 00;25;05;08
Ryan Johnson
Well, I think, like, you know, if we consider the church like one entity, like one organism, one person.
00;25;05;08 - 00;25;09;10
Joshua Hoffert
You mean the Catholic Church?
00;25;09;13 - 00;25;13;20
Ryan Johnson
Well, in everything that it.
00;25;13;22 - 00;25;18;12
Joshua Hoffert
Is, everybody is okay. Catholic just means universal, that's all. I'm. Yeah.
00;25;18;14 - 00;25;50;06
Ryan Johnson
Okay, well, even even like a local body. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, you know, images like we just singular Temple one. Yeah. Body one. Bride one Yeah. But like, you know, people have character and organizations or organisms have culture. And just like, we need formation in our character as people, and that takes time and experience. We need that same formation as an organization.
00;25;50;09 - 00;26;08;09
Ryan Johnson
And I don't mean a world organization, right, but just in the sense of like a group of people. And so one of the things that was clear to us is that we weren't going to, like, superimpose that culture. We weren't going to say, here's a model who's administering use of the things that our denomination that that we're going to superimpose on these people and make people conform to it.
00;26;08;15 - 00;26;34;21
Ryan Johnson
Right. One of the things that was important for me from the get go was I appreciate you saying, hey, this language just formed over time because I don't want to sound like I had to put together and I'm still working it out. But but it is clear now than it was. But some of the some of the pertinent things at the beginning was like I, I wanted and we wanted the expression in the church to be come from the people that were part of the church.
00;26;34;26 - 00;26;46;02
Ryan Johnson
Right. So as we as we met people where they were and we actually walk through formation with them and we walk through discipleship with them, then it was really up to God about what the expression this church looked like.
00;26;46;03 - 00;26;46;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;26;47;00 - 00;27;06;10
Ryan Johnson
So. So one of the things we say is that, you know, substance is way more important than style. Now we have a creative church. Esthetically, I love it. And, you know, we're appealing to some of those, you know, sensibilities in our city creatively. But that comes from a place we're not trying to cover up a place with that stuff.
00;27;06;11 - 00;27;26;06
Ryan Johnson
It's like we have to find out what our authentic selves are. That becomes the culture of the church. And so the DNA classes were really just a result of our story, Like, here's what the Lord has done. Here's the things that we found out. Here's the language that's really that really matters to us. So think of the few of us that started the church.
00;27;26;08 - 00;27;45;20
Ryan Johnson
We're going to be the whole time. But then you have someone who comes, you know, two weeks ago that is just loving this environment, but they don't know where it came from another language. They don't know how to be part of it. And we want we want to invite people into the story. And so part of the major for us at DNA is being grafted in.
00;27;46;05 - 00;27;56;11
Ryan Johnson
Right. So, like, you know, Gentiles being drafted into the Jews, you now want bodies like we want at the moment. You step foot in our church and say that this is where I want to be. Like you're now part of the story.
00;27;56;13 - 00;27;57;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;27;57;21 - 00;28;19;18
Ryan Johnson
And and so it isn't like us and them. And like, you know, you don't take a while. You know, one day you'll be part of this. Not like the body that was called together. It becomes the expression. And so that's that's why culture really matters to us. But even in light of what we were talking about in the city, like we have to know who we are.
00;28;19;20 - 00;28;20;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;28;20;14 - 00;28;47;12
Ryan Johnson
To be able to say no to who we aren't. Yeah. And as much as that is appropriate for the city that we live in, it's also appropriate for the church, right? Like the other churches and the church. Because if there's reformation that's required, if the Lord is doing something that doesn't look the way it did, if you know what worked in the generation past is, you know, yeah, evolving and changing in this generation, then we can't we can't just go with what's always been done.
00;28;47;14 - 00;29;07;18
Ryan Johnson
And so, you know, a lot of if the listeners are going to be okay with this, but like, you know, we consider we don't consider ourselves but it's been said, you know, you know, it's a little bit punk rock, right? Punk rock being the thing that was kind of like not the norm.
00;29;07;25 - 00;29;08;12
Joshua Hoffert
The alternative.
00;29;08;12 - 00;29;29;24
Ryan Johnson
Of mainstream. Yeah, but then it then but then it starts to form something later. It starts as something that is outside. And, you know, there's always a different motive for why people do things differently. And we had to keep our hearts pure, not because we condescended anybody else or we're angry at something else we want it to be because that's flawed from the beginning.
00;29;29;26 - 00;29;33;04
Joshua Hoffert
Because it's the cure. The ordinances, Green Day, basically.
00;29;33;07 - 00;29;34;02
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. There you go.
00;29;34;08 - 00;29;35;01
Murray Dueck
Nice.
00;29;35;03 - 00;30;13;27
Ryan Johnson
There you go. Yeah. And, you know, it's like, who are we? And God want us to be us. If he called us, he wants us to be us. And we we had to we, we had to go the route of him developing who we were, which took way longer than we apprenticed right? Way longer. So any church planner out there that thinks, you know, you want it to be a thing tomorrow, it's not the way it works because there's formation that's that's a part of what's happening.
00;30;13;29 - 00;30;35;12
Ryan Johnson
And so that was really important for us to to like be established just as a as a teenager becomes a man or a young woman becomes an adult. Like, it takes time to formation. You think you know who you are, and then you look back to like, no, actually I had to learn and grow. And so even as an organization, that was really important for us.
00;30;35;12 - 00;30;49;14
Ryan Johnson
But then we had the market which put language to it. Right. Language is the clarity of culture, right? So that was really important for us. Wow.
00;30;49;17 - 00;30;51;03
Murray Dueck
And then we we had.
00;30;51;03 - 00;31;05;02
Ryan Johnson
To give it away. We have to give it away. If there's something the Lord wants to do through us, we have to have the tools and the means to articulate what it is that you said. What are these these done and what is required of us?
00;31;05;04 - 00;31;21;26
Murray Dueck
It's so cool listening to to what you're saying in conjunction with how we we've covered past the present, so to speak, you know, and there's so much more we could do. But but you know, your your thought about, you know, God doesn't need a slave people going into the promised land, you know, he he needs sons and daughters and just listening.
00;31;21;26 - 00;31;46;06
Murray Dueck
You know, when you think about that story and, you know, like the Lord saying to the Joshua, this void stones of gill gal, you know, drop these in the river. And so people will say, when you see these things, tell them what happened. Right. And and that that you guys have these stones of Gil gal moments individually that shaped you but then corporately and now you're telling people, hey, look at this, this is who we are and how you put that whole thing together.
00;31;46;06 - 00;31;47;27
Murray Dueck
It's quite brilliant.
00;31;47;29 - 00;32;08;15
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, it's. I mean, again, it's just. It's. It's keeping a sip of the spirit. It's really important. You know what One of the cool narratives in the. In the New Testament, when Jesus is a boy, 12 years old, he's going to Jerusalem right to and for the festival with his parents and and and and this time.
00;32;08;15 - 00;32;25;11
Ryan Johnson
Right. Like he's in the temple listening to the teachers and being there and parents go back home colleges not their says marriage really upset about this. Right. Why are you with me And she comes back and Jesus says, the knowing about my father's will. And then it says to Mary, Treasure these things in your heart.
00;32;25;18 - 00;32;26;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;32;26;23 - 00;32;40;19
Ryan Johnson
And it's really important because for 11 years they did the same thing. They went to Jerusalem and they came home. And with the. I mean, they came home. What did you. And then all of a sudden Jesus doesn't do what they've always done.
00;32;40;21 - 00;32;41;07
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;32;41;07 - 00;32;59;18
Ryan Johnson
And it did it mean that did it did it mean that Mary didn't love her son? She just lost track of him. She lost sight of him. And I think that's what happens in the church is like we this is what we've always done. This is how we do it. And then we get mad because Jesus is with us.
00;32;59;20 - 00;33;20;24
Ryan Johnson
And then we go and we say, yeah, your Lord, your King, even though you're my son. Mary speaking like I know who you are and I'm going to follow you. But the important part was that she treasured it in her heart. Right. Yeah. It was humiliating for her to lose her son and for her son to kind of undermine her motherly leadership.
00;33;20;27 - 00;33;43;22
Ryan Johnson
But at the end of the day, she remember, yeah, this is his deal, not mine. Yeah. Yeah. And us, us as the church and as leaders need to remember that this is the Lord. And if he wants to stay in Jerusalem, when, when, when we want to go home, because this is what we've always done. Right. And Paul says, keep in step with the spirit you want to gratify desires the flesh, sometimes desires the flesh are little comfort.
00;33;43;25 - 00;33;54;28
Ryan Johnson
We just want to go home. We just want to do things the way we know are predictable and that can get results and all these things. And we've just lost track of Jesus.
00;33;55;00 - 00;33;56;02
Murray Dueck
Wow. Very good.
00;33;56;08 - 00;33;56;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;33;56;20 - 00;34;12;12
Ryan Johnson
And so that's been our journey is like we want to keep in step with him no matter the cost. And then when we get out of step, because it happens, we, we, we repent, we come back to our first love and then we treasure it in our hearts and say, that's never going to happen again.
00;34;12;15 - 00;34;13;28
Murray Dueck
Wow.
00;34;14;00 - 00;34;35;03
Joshua Hoffert
Which is where the core value of I want someone that I'm walking with that's wiser and more mature than me. That's local to me and not far away from me. And I've seen leaders walk it. Well, when you walk with people that are far away from you, it's easy to keep them at a distance and they only see the best moments.
00;34;35;03 - 00;35;04;13
Joshua Hoffert
You know, you have your your board meetings and your leadership meetings and share your reports and then you never hear about what's actually happening on the ground day to day. You hear about what's happening, the best foot forward. You know, it's reminding me of just what you're saying. Is Peter going, let's go fishing again? Right. And we go back to what we know because we lost sight of who he is.
00;35;04;15 - 00;35;39;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And then John saying, hey, I think that's Jesus over there. And Peter catching a vision form again and jumping right back in the right, back in the water and going, I'm going to stand right with him. Yeah. So. Yeah. I love how language you said language brings clarity to culture and one of the things, Steve, our good friend of all of us, says language creates culture.
00;35;39;19 - 00;35;53;20
Joshua Hoffert
And and I and I like adding that to it. Language brings clarity to culture as well. And what you talk about, you eventually. Well, what you talk about, hopefully you practice and you become you know some people talk and then don't become.
00;35;53;23 - 00;36;01;19
Ryan Johnson
Well, that's the thing, I think. I think culture is language and example. Yeah. And, and to have integrity in culture is to have integrity between the two.
00;36;01;26 - 00;36;03;07
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Yeah. Know.
00;36;03;10 - 00;36;29;15
Ryan Johnson
You say what you do and you do what you say. And then too. But the more clear your language, the more accountable you are with your behavior. Right. So anybody can walk in a room and say, Hey, you say this, but I don't see this. But if it's such a treasure, we have the opposite. When people walk into a room and they feel it, encounter it first, and then you bring language to it and they're like, yeah, that's what I've felt.
00;36;29;17 - 00;36;30;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;36;30;11 - 00;36;35;24
Ryan Johnson
That's what we experienced. Yeah. And that's, that's a high standard. But, but, but why not?
00;36;36;01 - 00;36;37;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;36;37;09 - 00;36;38;13
Ryan Johnson
Right. Like, that's integrity.
00;36;38;14 - 00;36;41;08
Joshua Hoffert
It's, that should be the normal standard. Really.
00;36;41;11 - 00;37;00;10
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. And you know, we say it's a value. We have cultural values, which means you'll move towards what you value. Right. It's not a standard in the sense that that if we miss it, then we're, you know, we're worth nothing. It's a value. We want to continue to point each other to that space. And so, yeah, I think language is huge.
00;37;00;10 - 00;37;19;09
Ryan Johnson
And for us it's accountability really what it is. Like you said it and so it's clear to everyone we make what was formerly implicit, now explicit, and that, you know, Brené Brown, when she say clear as time do it, even if, it's hurtful.
00;37;19;12 - 00;37;38;21
Murray Dueck
Wow, that's a good statement. Lots to chew on. Lost. I'm still back with how you applied it and married and treasured these things that are heart. You know, put up a flag post there and never forgot it. I mean, that's quite brilliant. Anyway.
00;37;38;24 - 00;37;41;14
Joshua Hoffert
Back here.
00;37;41;20 - 00;38;00;21
Ryan Johnson
I think, you know, for me, one of my one of my big bents and I think this is kind of the call of God on my life is, you know, helping church leaders. You know, it's one of the passions of mine is to lift burdens off of pastors and leaders, the burdens that don't need to be that great.
00;38;00;21 - 00;38;22;01
Ryan Johnson
When Jesus says my yoke is easy, my burden is light. Like, that's not the narrative that we have in the Western church. Like people are slaves to ministry and they give their lives and their mental health and their inner world and divorce and sin and all of these things. And, you know, is that is that the model we want to perpetuate.
00;38;22;04 - 00;38;50;10
Ryan Johnson
And so I think to have a standard of of peace and of joy, not for shame if we don't have it, but for vision to say, hey, I'm not I'm actually not going to pursue ministry if it's going to cost me the thing that Jesus didn't ask at the cost me right? And so we actually, you know, in a in our in our church, in our staff and in our leadership, we bring language this way when we talk about many people of hurt high can really low control.
00;38;50;13 - 00;39;16;01
Ryan Johnson
But when we say accountability, we talk about accountability to our calling with each other, right? That are our first accountabilities to our calling. But this is where we get nuanced in the language, is that calling isn't a vocation. Calling isn't like out there calling us to him. And so all of our calling this a service to be filled with him is to know him.
00;39;16;03 - 00;39;36;26
Ryan Johnson
And then from there comes our purpose. But many of us are trying to walk in our purpose without walking in or calling first. Right. And so we're not sustained in our purpose. We don't have the grace to do what we've been called to do because we're not walking or calling, which is his priority, which is to be filled with him.
00;39;36;28 - 00;39;55;11
Ryan Johnson
Right. I think of it you're both spoke. I think of it in terms of basketball, like the purpose of a basketball. Right. Or I was to put it this way, the calling of the basket, what is it calling them? Basketball. Most people would say to go to the hoop or to be in the hands of Michael Jordan or, you know, to bounce up and down the court.
00;39;55;11 - 00;39;58;16
Ryan Johnson
And I would say no. I think the calling of a basketball is be filled with air.
00;39;58;19 - 00;40;03;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right, Right. Yeah. If you don't have that, it's pretty much pointless.
00;40;03;11 - 00;40;29;06
Ryan Johnson
Exactly. And the purpose of a basketball is to go to the hoop. But if we understand that we're a basketball, try to fulfill its purpose without living in its calling. That's come along with our life is like sometimes in ministry or even just as we're trying to walk this thing out without being filled daily with this presence, without knowing it, without living from the place of his love, his clarity, his voice, living it, sons and daughters.
00;40;29;08 - 00;40;51;12
Ryan Johnson
And when we do that first we live our calling and our purpose. If we have the grace upon grace, grace to do things that we couldn't naturally do at our own strength. And so I think that to me, is the solution for the epidemic of burnout and failure in church and so on and so forth. Like we got to get people in love with Jesus again.
00;40;51;14 - 00;41;18;00
Joshua Hoffert
Did you would you say that the the misconstruing of all that calling purpose and and how you know you you were about walking with pastors and alleviating the burden and how those kind of things get so twisted calling and purpose. Would you and and you know Rob's the joy of what the father wants to do in the midst of all that they're doing.
00;41;18;02 - 00;41;36;04
Joshua Hoffert
Would you say your the brokenness part, in one sense, the brokenness of you growing up in a home with so much focus on ministry? Did you see that happening on a day to day basis as a young boy in your family? Is that.
00;41;36;07 - 00;41;39;06
Ryan Johnson
I think so. I again, I wouldn't I wouldn't have articulated.
00;41;39;12 - 00;41;48;18
Joshua Hoffert
of course. But I have an eight year old boy, so I what they articulate is fart and poop. Yes. Yeah.
00;41;48;21 - 00;42;11;22
Ryan Johnson
Daniel? Yeah, for sure. I think. I think, like, I'm a I think I'm a I'm a purist in that sense. I think like when when Jesus when Jesus says his yoke is easy, this burden is light. Like I like I take him seriously. Right. And, you know, he talks about, like, your obedience. His joy would be complete in our something like a life full of joy.
00;42;11;24 - 00;42;21;17
Ryan Johnson
My God. Right. The world can offer that. And if that's what you want from me as I follow you, then I can measure everything against that.
00;42;21;19 - 00;42;22;25
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;42;22;28 - 00;42;47;15
Ryan Johnson
Right. Not this worldly joy, not self-satisfaction, but satisfaction in that. And if. If the metric of of like my kind of obedience to him is actually these things that are life giving to me, then then that is the greatest walk ever. And so to answer your question, I think I think I was aware of like the the basketball player.
00;42;47;18 - 00;42;48;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yeah.
00;42;48;24 - 00;43;03;10
Ryan Johnson
This is not what it's supposed to be right. And so discerning enough, I think, to know it came out as rebellion for me. Sure. Not sure if I had prophetic inside. It would be like to rip people to shreds that you know, that I didn't think were walking the walk.
00;43;03;14 - 00;43;05;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;43;05;06 - 00;43;24;00
Ryan Johnson
And so, you know, I think I have compassion for that in the world to of like the critical critical thought and the seeing through stuff. But, you know, one of my greatest passions is is the or one of the greatest kind of badges of honor, I guess, in the church is that we have many pastors, kids in the church.
00;43;24;02 - 00;43;42;26
Ryan Johnson
Right. And many people who have pastored other churches like finding refreshment. Right. Not settling for super I, settling for service level things. And considering that the gold standard we want, we want to go to the depths of what you said and what he means. And so we hold ourselves to that. So anyways so.
00;43;42;29 - 00;43;43;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;43;43;13 - 00;43;45;15
Ryan Johnson
So my prerogative when it comes to the system.
00;43;45;16 - 00;44;05;13
Joshua Hoffert
It's the audacity of taking the Gospels at face value. Yeah. Yeah. And what Jack says at face value, he must have meant it if he said it. So I think sometimes we try and execute ourself out of a problem so that we don't have to actually be anxious for nothing. Like he says, know the invitation. Right?
00;44;05;15 - 00;44;26;18
Ryan Johnson
And yeah, so that's why I think like we we have a world of examples around us and I think maybe in our in our Western kind of pursuit of the American dream or prosperity or whatever, stumbled onto comfort, that example is eroded. And then, you know, Paul and Philippians three is, is that if you think otherwise, he's talking about pursuing God as the prize.
00;44;26;21 - 00;44;36;14
Ryan Johnson
The consuming garbage is like if you think otherwise, like, wait. Got to commit to you. And then he's like, like, fine, those who live this way and follow them.
00;44;36;16 - 00;44;38;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Right.
00;44;38;22 - 00;45;01;27
Ryan Johnson
This guy's transfixed by by God. He's got every accolade in the world and he's like, That's garbage, because I've seen him. I was knocked off like the road to Damascus with an encounter with Jesus. And now I can't help but, like, live from that account. I can't unsee what I saw. Yeah, In fact, I'm going to leverage everything in my life to know him and like that.
00;45;02;01 - 00;45;25;15
Ryan Johnson
Now, two years ago, that struck when I was in pain points in ministry that struck me in like, yeah, I actually got to play my part. I got the spoon, feed me everything. I can actually pursue it, right? And so, so that that's the number one thing is our focus is building ministry or making a name for ourselves or fill in the blank.
00;45;25;18 - 00;45;46;09
Ryan Johnson
Then we've missed placed what matters most, and we're not actually living in what it means to be human in fulfilling that internal reward system, which is to know in nothing can touch your neurology. Yeah, and I mean that like nothing can touch the way that you were made. Like his presence.
00;45;46;11 - 00;45;48;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;45;48;10 - 00;46;11;02
Ryan Johnson
And so we have to settle that in our hearts as leaders that that even though this thing is shiny and it looks like it's going to satisfy me or I've got so much going in my life, I have to settle for this. He's got something way better. And his grace is sufficient to fulfill and to meet me and my desire for it.
00;46;11;04 - 00;46;19;08
Ryan Johnson
All I have to do is desire it and then learn how discipline myself towards that end. Yeah.
00;46;19;11 - 00;46;31;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. I mean, there's like I, there's like a billion different and I mean, I think we're going to call it to a close, right as we're going into the next couple of minutes.
00;46;32;01 - 00;46;33;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah. There's so many there's.
00;46;33;06 - 00;46;34;26
Joshua Hoffert
Just because I mean I want it to.
00;46;34;28 - 00;46;36;02
Murray Dueck
Grow as we get table.
00;46;36;04 - 00;46;36;26
Ryan Johnson
I want to talk.
00;46;36;29 - 00;46;57;03
Joshua Hoffert
I want to talk about being a husband and a father and living a disciplined spiritual life, and that since I know right now, Ryan, for those of you that are listening, you won't see this. But he's in the furnace room in his place in Vancouver. And this is this is his quote unquote, prayer closet. That's where he goes to be alone with the father.
00;46;57;07 - 00;47;25;17
Joshua Hoffert
And so I think it's a great privilege that we get to interview him when he's in the firm. That's where he yeah, that's where he goes to burn it. And so just, you know, there's there's a whole nother conversation about the lifestyle of a leader to make space for that burning to happen. Yeah. And you know, you're talking about being convinced that these things are true and then living as if you're convinced that they're true or because you're.
00;47;25;17 - 00;47;25;23
Joshua Hoffert
How do.
00;47;25;23 - 00;47;26;04
Ryan Johnson
You.
00;47;26;07 - 00;47;37;05
Joshua Hoffert
Do that? How do you do that? Know that's a big thing. Then the other thing is I want to interview his wife and and ask if all this stuff you saying is actually true, Does he really does he really live this way?
00;47;37;08 - 00;47;42;23
Murray Dueck
And then ask her about, you know, what he's told us about when he met his future wife?
00;47;42;26 - 00;47;43;22
Ryan Johnson
Would you think about that?
00;47;43;22 - 00;47;48;06
Joshua Hoffert
Well, that's right. I'm sure she would corroborate every story.
00;47;48;09 - 00;47;48;23
Ryan Johnson
Yeah.
00;47;48;26 - 00;47;53;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's just I mean, there's just so much that it's been. Yeah. Go ahead.
00;47;53;06 - 00;47;55;20
Ryan Johnson
Josh, can I take one minute? Can I take one minute?
00;47;55;22 - 00;47;56;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;47;56;19 - 00;48;15;04
Ryan Johnson
This is something that's so near and dear to my heart When. When Paul talks and first is not about pursuing the prize running to win the prize, that that radically transformed my life because I knew what it meant to be a basketball player, to be an athlete, you know, And I'm not a professional by any means, and I didn't make it very far.
00;48;15;04 - 00;48;40;11
Ryan Johnson
But when I think a guy like Michael Phelps, one of the most accomplished Olympic athletes in the world, the what was required of him to actually win the prize. Right. Like, you know, I can eat a cheeseburger if I want supposed I was talking about like, you know, all things are are permissible and all things are beneficial. And if I if I want to win the gold, it's not a sin for me to eat a cheeseburger.
00;48;40;13 - 00;48;57;24
Ryan Johnson
But if I really want the prize, I'm going to put that thing away. And I think that is that's the thing that struck my heart about the Lord that I'm actually called to pursue the Lord like a professional athlete, which to me is the language from my heart.
00;48;57;26 - 00;48;58;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;48;58;25 - 00;49;18;11
Ryan Johnson
Other people know what it means to spend four years, eight years, ten years in school pursuing a degree or pursuing a woman or pursuing a calling or whatever it is. People know what it means to pursue something. And all of a sudden, hey, the thing that you have set in your life towards in pursuit of that, you will not compromise for anything in that towards the Lord.
00;49;18;13 - 00;49;19;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;49;19;09 - 00;49;36;14
Ryan Johnson
And so when he says I strike a blow to my body, make it my slave saying my body's not going to tell me what to do, I'm going to tell you what to do. But it's not. It's not to become pious and it's not to become holy. It's not to become a good pastor or minister preaches on. It's to know him.
00;49;36;16 - 00;49;55;23
Ryan Johnson
And so I'm going to pursue the Lord like a professional athlete. And again, this is a goal. And I'm again like Paul pursuing it and getting better. But I need to act like I want to know him. Amen. So God is it's changed everything for me. Yeah.
00;49;55;26 - 00;49;56;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;49;56;22 - 00;49;58;29
Murray Dueck
You.
00;49;59;02 - 00;50;07;11
Joshua Hoffert
I love that, Ryan. I really like you. One day we'll play basketball together.
00;50;07;13 - 00;50;15;26
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. Let's go. Yeah, let's go. I mean, I talk a mean game. It's all spiritual realities for me now.
00;50;15;29 - 00;50;43;02
Joshua Hoffert
I use it. I. I think I just use the analogy the other day, a couple of weeks ago, when I was preaching about shooting free throws to I go to get the form back, you know, like the warm up, the warm up routine never changes. Right. To practice the basics so that in the game I perform well. And then it's not like it's not like, I don't it's been ten years.
00;50;43;02 - 00;51;17;14
Joshua Hoffert
I haven't practiced the basics. I need to get back to practicing the basics when it comes to sports, right? It's it's constant. My whole thing is shooting. I'm a good shooter. And the older I get, the more I have to work on that. So it's my bread and butter and if I'm if I'm not shooting, well, if I don't warm up right by by shooting free throws, going through my warm up routine, just the basics of shot structure, making sure my elbow is in alignment, my feet are in the right position, I've got the right dip and the movement and everything with the shot.
00;51;17;16 - 00;51;35;12
Joshua Hoffert
It is all about energy, Energy transfer to the ball to get it with the right arc into the basket with the right backspin. Right. And and there's a lot of mechanics to it. So I just practice and practice and practice. And then when I'm in the game and someone passes me the ball, I can shoot it automatically, right?
00;51;35;13 - 00;51;55;11
Joshua Hoffert
But it's not like I ever you never move past the need to practice the rhythms of the basic shot structure. You just never do. So you can't. You can't get past it. You can't go. I don't need to practice for ten years. You think about some of the great basketball shooters in NBA history. Ray Allen. Steph Curry Right.
00;51;55;13 - 00;52;17;07
Joshua Hoffert
Klay Thompson The two guys. Now what? Klay Thompson is not playing as well anymore. But but these guys that they're like you see their warm up routine and they're out before the game for hours shooting basic shots over and over and over and over again so that in a 48 minute window they can perform at a high level.
00;52;17;10 - 00;52;45;25
Joshua Hoffert
Not so that like it's not they're not playing the game. You know, it's not like as a as a leader, it's not like you're preaching in front of a crowd of people every single day. I mean, your life is is you preaching. Right? But those basic fundamental rhythms, it's like, I don't understand how you can expect as a leader, how you can expect to experience the freedom Christ promises without living the lifestyle.
00;52;45;25 - 00;52;47;08
Joshua Hoffert
He demonstrated.
00;52;47;11 - 00;52;47;24
Ryan Johnson
It.
00;52;47;27 - 00;53;02;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right where he invites us to freedom and then goes, Hey, by the way, I'm going to go to the mountain and be away with my father overnight because I just need to be with them. Right, right, right. And it's like for me to to think I don't need to do similar. You know, there's no mountains in my soul.
00;53;02;27 - 00;53;21;24
Joshua Hoffert
I can't. You guys have mountains there? We don't have mountains here, so I can't go to the mountains. But I can for sure go to a furnished room and pray, you know. And, you know, one of the things that you you actually you when I was there and we were chatting after the Sunday service, we had coffee at a really good coffee place.
00;53;21;24 - 00;53;45;19
Joshua Hoffert
By the way, there's some great coffee places in Vancouver and and Ryan's a coffee guy, just so you know, for all of our coffee people out there. The you had talked about being up at 3 a.m. in your furnace room encountering the father in preparation for the Sunday morning. Right. And it's not even just so you can preach a better sermon.
00;53;45;19 - 00;54;05;14
Joshua Hoffert
It's because you're so I want to bring the people that he's entrusted me in to freedom, the same kind of freedom that he's given me. And so that's a that's a sacrifice. But that's that is because after church. Right. You're going to I mean, church wasn't done to like 4 p.m. that day. But but after church, your kids want you right?
00;54;05;18 - 00;54;29;00
Joshua Hoffert
Your wife needs attention. You're your kids want energy from you. They want to play with you with their dad. Right? They want emotional investment. And you're up at 3 a.m. like you get home from church, you can be tired. And so there's there's practical sacrifices to walking out, to beat, taking seriously the challenge of the gospel, to bring freedom to people that God's entrusted to you.
00;54;29;03 - 00;54;50;24
Joshua Hoffert
And and I just want to say I'm you know, I joke about having your wife on your to corroborate everything, but think looking at what I know about you, you walk the walk and and that's that's the challenge to leaders in this season is you're not going to see the fruit that you want to see without walking the walk because people can you can smell inauthenticity from a mile away.
00;54;50;26 - 00;55;19;04
Joshua Hoffert
You know, we're confronted with it on a daily basis in our culture. Is the the fake social media profile. The the you know, the Instagram story that perfectly curates what life looks like. Now. We're confronted with it daily on a daily basis. And just by the nature, you know, the analogy is that of how they I don't know if this is true, but I've always heard people say how they teach a bank teller to recognize fake notes.
00;55;19;06 - 00;55;41;15
Joshua Hoffert
They just give them a million real notes. And you get so accustomed to what's real that you can pick out what's fake in the middle of a whole stack. Yeah, yeah. And and the challenge I think in our in in the season that we're in with the church is like, like you're saying the, the old model doesn't work because it's empty and hollow.
00;55;41;18 - 00;55;57;14
Joshua Hoffert
So like we don't even know why we're doing it anymore. The old way is just like we're just, just what we do and it's inauthentic. It's not who is not who Ryan is. It's not who Mary is. It's not who I am. And it's like, Well, we'll just keep doing it because all we know how to do is go fishing again.
00;55;57;17 - 00;56;16;15
Joshua Hoffert
And it's like when we were coming out of that, I remember talking with a number of leaders who were going, Well, no one's coming back to church in North America, right? There was this precipitous drop off in church attendance after COVID for a lot of churches, not every church for a lot of churches. Well, you know what? When we did citywide prayer initiatives, people came.
00;56;16;15 - 00;56;50;20
Joshua Hoffert
So let's do that again. Right? Right. And you're like, well, but is the father asking you to do that or is that just Peter going, let's go fishing because we don't know what else to do, right? Where's John pointing the way to Jesus and saying, He's over there, guys. He's not in the boat fishing. And I think that the the my observation is that if we keep like, like if John wasn't on the boat and pointing out Jesus in John 21, I think all of them would have gone thanks Mr. to the guy on the shore for the great strategy.
00;56;50;22 - 00;57;08;28
Joshua Hoffert
We'll come back tomorrow and do the same thing. Right. We caught 153 today. We're going to catch 140 tomorrow, but we're still successful because it's over 100, Right? And then the next day we're at 125, and the next day we're at 110. And a year later we're catching three fish. But we're still doing it because that's what we did.
00;57;09;01 - 00;57;30;07
Joshua Hoffert
But because if John wasn't there, it's like a scary thing to me. If John's not there to say, Jesus is over there, guys is not in this anymore, then we get stuck doing the same structure in the same pattern and it's just empty service and the world smells out from a mile away and Christians smell it from a mile away and.
00;57;30;09 - 00;57;32;13
Ryan Johnson
John was the one who put his head on Jesus chest.
00;57;32;13 - 00;57;52;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right? He was. He's the one that hurt. Like he heard the heartbeat. He was right there with his head on the bosom of Jesus. He was he was. You know, what's interesting is I didn't catch this until it was really in the last year or so. I've been anyway, is when Peter denies Jesus. I think it's in Matthew 18 three times.
00;57;53;02 - 00;58;17;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right in the in the Matthew rendition. No, in the John Rendition. I think it's John 18 when Peter denies Jesus and it says that, you know, he does it by a fire of coals, which is interesting that Jesus invites him to a fire of coals only two times in Scripture. That particular term exists. So Peter denies it when fire of calls and Jesus restores him over a fire of coals.
00;58;17;21 - 00;58;35;08
Joshua Hoffert
But when Peter denies him the third time, John standing right there. John And John came out couched for him and said, Hey, this is this guy needs to come in, he can come in. And then the woman says to him, are you one of his disciples? He says, No. So John doesn't deny him. But Peter does John standing right there.
00;58;35;13 - 00;59;00;07
Joshua Hoffert
And what was the difference between John and Peter? I think the difference between John and Peter at that particular moment was that John was convinced that he was loved and that Jesus was love. Right. And Peter was still wrestling with that. And, and so John is John's the one. He goes right into there with Jesus and Peter wrestles with, Can I be seen and known or will I lose everything?
00;59;00;09 - 00;59;17;23
Joshua Hoffert
And then when he goes out and anyway, it's it's, it's like there's a lot of leaders that are like Peter today and Jesus is gone. Come on, get out of the boat and come be with me. Let's talk about the struggles. Talk about the difficulties. Like I'm a lot more I'm a lot kinder than you think I am.
00;59;17;25 - 00;59;33;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You said that about your friend, right? I think Jesus is a lot kinder than you think he is, John. But, you know, it's like the the the C.S. Lewis. Aslan, Right. He's not safe. He's a lion, not.
00;59;33;23 - 00;59;34;09
Ryan Johnson
A Tanium.
00;59;34;09 - 00;59;35;10
Joshua Hoffert
Liar. He's not a team.
00;59;35;11 - 00;59;36;11
Ryan Johnson
Like he is good.
00;59;36;11 - 00;59;47;19
Joshua Hoffert
He's good, but he's not safe. He'll call you too. Everything. So I. Anyway, I've really, really loved our conversation, so I'll step down off the soapbox.
00;59;47;22 - 00;59;48;25
Ryan Johnson
Thank you, guys.
00;59;48;27 - 00;59;49;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, Thanks, Ryan.
00;59;50;00 - 00;59;53;14
Murray Dueck
That was great. Boy, just trying to keep my mouth shut at this point.
00;59;53;16 - 00;59;56;28
Ryan Johnson
Like, we can do it again. We can do that. Yeah.
00;59;57;01 - 00;59;58;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we will be good.
00;59;58;07 - 01;00;23;23
Murray Dueck
Because, like, you know, I'll just say this one thing, you know, because it's interesting can culture because because quoting verse, you know, I, I consider all things like that. I mean, know him, you know what I was taught. I didn't even figure it out till five years ago. You know, you pursue that on and and the version I read was the press on to the higher calling in Christ, my Lord I always took higher calling to mean what's your what's your vision for life?
01;00;23;23 - 01;00;44;17
Murray Dueck
How are you going to build church, What's your call in with your mix? And and it didn't hit me until years later. That's not what it means at all. It's what you said. The word no hymns. Fellowship happens five times, I think, in there, right? Yeah. And that my church culture, it taught me that the high value is doing instead of the high value is being.
01;00;44;17 - 01;01;03;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You know, I would love to pick this conversation up because you're still getting people coming in who think like I thought or pastors have trained that way. What is your calling? What's your high calling? And and you're shifting the shape of culture there as you have been shaped. Yeah. And anyway, I just like, man, we got to come back to that.
01;01;03;19 - 01;01;09;28
Murray Dueck
Like just that moment alone right there. So anyway, thank you for being here, right? Yeah. Just talking about these things. Like, I.
01;01;10;00 - 01;01;10;10
Ryan Johnson
Guess.
01;01;10;17 - 01;01;12;05
Murray Dueck
I'm a stirred up.
01;01;12;06 - 01;01;13;08
Joshua Hoffert
My heart is I.
01;01;13;09 - 01;01;13;19
Murray Dueck
Know that.
01;01;13;26 - 01;01;15;11
Joshua Hoffert
My heart is warmed.
01;01;15;14 - 01;01;17;07
Murray Dueck
It's snowing open was right?
01;01;17;08 - 01;01;19;00
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, it's. It's the furnace room.
01;01;19;06 - 01;01;20;19
Joshua Hoffert
It's the other furnace.
01;01;20;19 - 01;01;21;29
Ryan Johnson
And it's warming. All of us.
01;01;22;06 - 01;01;42;27
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe you need to start your own podcast called The Furnace Room. So. Well, everybody, welcome. Thanks for so much for joining us on this journey and and listening. And we hope every one of you is here your courage to say something that in fact, your Boston father God. So, Ryan, we're so thankful for you, what you're doing in Vancouver just now and who you are.
01;01;42;29 - 01;01;48;28
Joshua Hoffert
And as always, great to spend time with. Yeah. So until next time.