Join hosts Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck in this episode of "Voices from the Desert" as they sit down for part 2 of an interview with Michael Sullivant to explore the intricacies of brain health, relational mode, and honing essential brain skills. Gain valuable perspectives on living a life deeply connected to the heart of Jesus, as Michael shares his expertise in merging faith and neuroscience. Michael Sullivant is the Director of Relational Networks for Life Model Works.
For more about Michael Sullivant, Life Model, and the resources discussed in this episode, visit: https://lifemodelworks.org/
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
Join hosts Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck in this episode of "Voices from the Desert" as they sit down for part 2 of an interview with Michael Sullivant to explore the intricacies of brain health, relational mode, and honing essential brain skills. Gain valuable perspectives on living a life deeply connected to the heart of Jesus, as Michael shares his expertise in merging faith and neuroscience. Michael Sullivant is the Director of Relational Networks for Life Model Works.
For more about Michael Sullivant, Life Model, and the resources discussed in this episode, visit: https://lifemodelworks.org/
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
00;00;22;00 - 00;00;39;28
Michael Sullivant
The right hemisphere is designed to be dominant. It's your brilliant leader, your brilliant inspiration leader, your left hemispheres, your manager. Your manager. We fired them. We fired the leader and we promoted the manager to be the leader. And then we wonder why our culture is misguided.
00;00;40;00 - 00;01;00;07
Murray Dueck
Wow.
00;01;00;10 - 00;01;29;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Yeah, that's right. So what I want to dive into in the next little bit is what you use the term Emmanual lifestyle in your book. The biblical thinking through the life model biblically and. And you actually I think you did a conference and there you can get some. There was a conference in the session or something on your the profile on your page for the life model works about living in a manual lifestyle.
00;01;29;03 - 00;01;51;07
Joshua Hoffert
And and so I'm I'm what can we do unpack that what is yours because it's one thing to say well I'm going to have I'm going to meet with Michael or Murray or whoever, and we're going to offer you some some some practices and some insight and some wisdom. But what does it look like to integrate some of these things into a daily life, into a daily rhythm?
00;01;51;09 - 00;01;54;05
Joshua Hoffert
So what's an Emmanuel lifestyle all then?
00;01;54;07 - 00;02;11;06
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. Well, you know, it's all it's been called historically abiding. Right. And so it's very much about abiding, which is the word home, you know, related to the word home. Jesus said, I'm going to make my home in you.
00;02;11;07 - 00;02;11;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;02;11;27 - 00;02;30;02
Michael Sullivant
And the father also makes his home in us. That's the word Monet in Greek. It's it's only used two times in the New Testament, both in John 14, and it's where we get the word monastery also. Yeah, Jesus makes his monastery. yeah.
00;02;30;06 - 00;02;33;05
Joshua Hoffert
You just made me so happy.
00;02;33;07 - 00;02;34;28
Murray Dueck
Wow.
00;02;35;00 - 00;02;58;23
Michael Sullivant
And so, John 14, You know, when he says, Don't let your hearts be troubled, Don't be afraid. I'm going to go away, but I'm going to come back again and be with you so that you can be where I am. And I'm I'm making a dwelling place for you. And that that has been translated mansions and people think of it as mansions and heaven.
00;02;58;29 - 00;03;24;04
Michael Sullivant
I don't think it's that at all. I think it's he's saying I'm going to make my monastery in you. And it's about him coming back to us in his resurrected state. You know, he came back to them in his resurrected state physically, and then he sent the Holy Spirit. So I think John 14 is all about this union, you know, of abiding and Jesus and the father making their home and us.
00;03;24;06 - 00;03;47;21
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. So the Emmanuel lifestyle is welcoming the father and the son in the spirit to be at home in us where they can be who they really are. That's who you are at home. You let your hair down, you relax. So, father, son, always come and be who you really are in me and with me. And we're going to do this life together.
00;03;47;23 - 00;04;11;25
Michael Sullivant
And so it's it's the Emmanuel is God with us. Right? So it's the with part of this that you're not alone and you were never meant to be alone. God created human beings to be his temples, to be his dwelling places. This is the upgrade of the temple from the Old Testament to the new. Is he in dwells the human being.
00;04;11;27 - 00;04;38;03
Michael Sullivant
And so I know I'm not God, but God lives inside of me. And maybe that's the secret of life, you know, is if God lives inside of me. So. So the Emmanuel lifestyle is is a real experience. It's father, son, and Holy Spirit in dwelling me. And I've never been alone. And now I'm really never alone because I've been redeemed.
00;04;38;06 - 00;05;14;06
Michael Sullivant
And I've become his temple. He wasn't just near me. Now he's within me. Not just with me, he's within me. And we're living my life together. And so the the Emmanuel lifestyle is a consciousness of the living God actually, in dwelling us. And so another way of saying it would be this we're not just and this is where the life model I think takes some of the classic spiritual disciplines to the next level.
00;05;14;08 - 00;05;39;04
Michael Sullivant
It's not just contemplating God, it's not just thinking about God, it's thinking with God and God's thinking with you. He's actually putting thoughts into your mind and into your heart. You know, Christians all over the world agree Satan can put thoughts into people's minds, but they don't give they don't give God the same credit flow.
00;05;39;04 - 00;05;39;24
Joshua Hoffert
True?
00;05;39;26 - 00;05;43;17
Murray Dueck
Absolutely right. It's like if one team gets to do it, why not the other?
00;05;43;20 - 00;05;46;01
Michael Sullivant
Come on. Come on.
00;05;46;04 - 00;06;03;04
Murray Dueck
You have a friend. You like this? He he's a he teaches on hearing God's voice as well. And if he goes, sometimes he gets invited into these, you know, churches that are just kind of moving that way. And people. So how can you believe God speaks today? So he'll say to them, Do you believe in conviction? Well, yes, I do.
00;06;03;04 - 00;06;19;14
Murray Dueck
You know, they got to say that is a good evangelical. So you believe God can point to a certain sin done at a certain time, in a certain place? Yes. And you can tell you what you need to do about it. Like talk to someone. Yes. Do you not believe that's God speaking? I never thought about it that way.
00;06;19;14 - 00;06;37;11
Murray Dueck
I guess it is. And then he says, Isn't that interesting? We all believe God can convict us of sin and tell us what to do. And then we. But. But that's the only time he's allowed to talk to us is when we're bad. Then why do we call him ABA? And they're like, I never thought about that.
00;06;37;11 - 00;06;50;13
Murray Dueck
Right? So and, you know, the paradigm put upon us by the church of, you know, if God is going to talk to you when you're bad, Sure. But other than that, you know, it's pretty shocking.
00;06;50;15 - 00;07;12;18
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. Yeah. So this is the Emmanuel lifestyle thinking with God. God thinking with us. And as you experience it, there's times when you don't know, you know, is. Is that my thought or is it God's thought? You know, we have to test it and see see what the outcome is. And after a while you go, that was really God's thought, Hey, how wonderful.
00;07;12;18 - 00;07;32;23
Michael Sullivant
You know, this is the renewing of the mind and this is the best passage in the Bible for the prophetic, I think is first Corinthians chapter two, where Paul says it has not. He quotes the proverb, You know, I has not seen ear is not heard. It has not entered into the heart of man, all that God has prepared for those that love him.
00;07;32;28 - 00;07;35;21
Michael Sullivant
But to us He has revealed these things.
00;07;35;24 - 00;07;37;22
Murray Dueck
Yes, by the Spirit.
00;07;37;25 - 00;07;58;05
Michael Sullivant
And he ends up saying, So who's the Lord's counselor? Well, nobody's going to be his counselor, but we have the mind of Christ. We have the mind of Christ as a redeemed human. And we just find it hard to believe, but absolutely, to help each other overcome our unbelief.
00;07;58;08 - 00;08;22;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's that's I mean, you basically just saw what Mary and I did, like 15 part episode, 15 episodes on prophetic ministry. And you basically just summed up everything in one verse and that that would be the anchoring point, the Mind of Christ and in a prophetic ministry gets known today for predicting national events and political outcomes and everything as opposed to.
00;08;22;28 - 00;08;24;21
Michael Sullivant
The prophets aren't doing too well on that.
00;08;24;21 - 00;08;39;10
Joshua Hoffert
No, they're not. They really aren't. But but that what you just what you just described as prophetic ministry as God, making his thoughts known deep in the heart of men. And and that's that that is the context that Scripture gives us for prophetic ministry. So that's and.
00;08;39;10 - 00;08;49;29
Michael Sullivant
Then Paul says, I would combine spiritual thoughts with spiritual. Yes. So now we're speaking the word of God, you know, that's living and active and sharper than any two edged sword.
00;08;50;02 - 00;09;15;06
Joshua Hoffert
You know, it's interesting, the whole the early church had a robust understanding of how to deal with spiritual thoughts, and they called them Loki's Moye, which is that which is the Greek word. And they would look at thoughts that had potent energy both both that would lead you to darkness and that would lead you to God. Right. And there was there's a whole way of dealing with these kind of fostered a robust teaching on that.
00;09;15;08 - 00;09;19;23
Joshua Hoffert
It's and we're recapturing that today. I really think we are right. But it's it's right.
00;09;19;23 - 00;09;38;15
Murray Dueck
There and that our thoughts are not are not us necessarily. Yes. That and boy, that's a hang up point for for most Christians. I am my thoughts. Well, my goodness. If that's true. Right. Well, how do we take thoughts captive, you know, and tear down the stronghold if I'm my thoughts, it's the part of you taking a captive.
00;09;38;18 - 00;09;44;16
Murray Dueck
That's you with the Holy Spirit. And the churches always believe that there's in the day.
00;09;44;16 - 00;09;47;06
Joshua Hoffert
There's a story in the desert, others of.
00;09;47;09 - 00;09;48;00
Murray Dueck
Transformation.
00;09;48;05 - 00;10;12;09
Joshua Hoffert
There's a story of the desert fathers of two brothers who locked themselves up for a year after sinning and and one of them spends his time repenting, fasting, calling about, you know, I'm just such a wicked, awful, evil person. And the other guy spends his year thanking the father for how comfortable he for how comforting is, how tender he is, how forgiving he is, and and fat.
00;10;12;10 - 00;10;32;28
Joshua Hoffert
Both of them, you know, same constitution, same spent, same time fasting and praying. And both of them come out after a year. And the people that observe him are stunned because one guy comes out wasted away with a pale complexion and the other guy comes out full of life and vigor. And I'll let you guess which one comes out full of life and vigor.
00;10;33;04 - 00;11;02;16
Joshua Hoffert
I think it's pretty obvious which one and it the one who fills himself with the thoughts of God's beauty, wholeness, goodness, forgiveness and love and tenderness and mercy is full of vigor. And and they look at it and they go, well, both of them accomplished what they were doing, which was repentance. One of them may have turned out a little bit better than the other one, but you know, this this is this is again, this should be basic Christianity.
00;11;02;18 - 00;11;11;24
Joshua Hoffert
And we're just recapturing it today. What you guys have in in life model you guys have is it 18 brain skills? Is that what it is.
00;11;11;27 - 00;11;12;27
Michael Sullivant
19, 19.
00;11;13;00 - 00;11;13;22
Joshua Hoffert
Brain skills.
00;11;13;22 - 00;11;15;28
Michael Sullivant
1920. So I.
00;11;16;00 - 00;11;20;15
Joshua Hoffert
Do. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, those secret hidden ones, I guess, out there. All right.
00;11;20;17 - 00;11;22;13
Murray Dueck
So what's it called?
00;11;22;16 - 00;11;24;17
Michael Sullivant
Skill Zero. We just added skills.
00;11;24;17 - 00;11;25;27
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. Right. There you go.
00;11;26;02 - 00;11;26;16
Murray Dueck
Nice.
00;11;26;19 - 00;11;48;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we do need skill zero. So what? So that's part of the Emanuel lifestyle, right? Would be the brain skills and then some of the some of the exercises. So just, just, you know, highlight some what what are these relational brain skills? What are some of them how do they impact us? How might people practice them and where can they go to find out some information about that?
00;11;48;02 - 00;11;54;16
Joshua Hoffert
I know there's a whole book about it, like transforming Your Brain. Is that what is? I have it back there on my on the bookshelf somewhere.
00;11;54;16 - 00;12;32;07
Michael Sullivant
But yeah, Transforming Fellowship. Transforming fellowships. Right. One of our colleagues, Chris Corsi. So this is where the life model adds something to what Dallas Willard taught about the classic disciplines. So the classic disciplines are are taking place, they're intentional. And you talked about that earlier. It's the it's the indirect influence upon the identity of a person. So you you do things that indirectly give you power to be different than you've been.
00;12;32;09 - 00;13;10;07
Michael Sullivant
Right. The brain skills are different. And from that the brain skills are in the fast track of your brain. So they're happening at in the pre conscious part of our being. And there are beautiful, beautiful virtues that are embedded in the fast track of your brain and they are relational in their dynamic. And so it's it's faster than your conscious thoughts and your conscious decisions or will so it's it's faster than the will, faster than rational thinking.
00;13;10;09 - 00;13;34;14
Michael Sullivant
So a lot of times when people think about the brain, they think, that's our rational thinking. No, your brain does much, much, much more in your life than your rational thinking. Right? We all know that it regulates your heartbeat and helps you to go to sleep when you need to go to sleep. There's all kinds of inbuilt pre conscious powers that God has invested in our beings and in our bodies.
00;13;34;17 - 00;14;05;00
Michael Sullivant
And so the life model has learned how to reach into the pre conscious part of the human being and unleash these powers that are faster than conscious thought or faster than conscious. Well, so the practices that we recommend partner with the classic disciplines. And so I call the classic disciplines humility drills. They keep God big and they keep you small and that's their purpose.
00;14;05;00 - 00;14;42;29
Michael Sullivant
And they are indirect in their effect upon us. But the relational brain skills are are not disciplines. They are powers that are latent that get unleashed inside of you. And so practices like if if you and I are friends and you come to my door and I open the door and we look each other in the eyes quickly, there's actually six exchanges of joy that happened between us before we even have a chance to call each others names or say hello.
00;14;43;01 - 00;15;15;02
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, So joy is relational. Joy is glad to be with you. Glad to see you. That's what joy is. Joy is relational and it's and it's not something that's conscious. You're when you're glad to see what I'm glad to see one of you guys at my door. My fresh water goes across my eyes involuntarily. Pools in the bottom of my eyelids picks up more light from the environment around us and reflects it back to you.
00;15;15;02 - 00;15;17;24
Michael Sullivant
And that's why my eyes sparkle when I see you.
00;15;17;26 - 00;15;18;23
Murray Dueck
Interesting.
00;15;18;23 - 00;15;45;08
Michael Sullivant
And I'm glad to see you. And you're glad to see me. Six exchanges of joy before we can even say hello. So incredible. This is what Christians haven't known about. They haven't known about the neuroscience that is relational in its base and its base. You know, it's a relational experi ence. And so we we, for instance, with greeting one another, that's one of the practices.
00;15;45;10 - 00;15;57;09
Michael Sullivant
So when you come to the door, I look you in the eye instead of avoid eye contact. So I look you in the eye. Not a staring contest.
00;15;57;12 - 00;15;58;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Couple.
00;15;58;22 - 00;16;33;17
Michael Sullivant
Couple seconds. Right. And my eyes sparkle and your eyes sparkle. And then I greet you intentionally. I slow down my life to greet you. And this is the New Testament, you know, talks about greeting one another in a robust way. So that's one of the practices that we would recommend to people is slow down when someone comes into your presence, cause it only takes a couple seconds, look someone in the eye and greet them warmly.
00;16;33;20 - 00;17;07;08
Michael Sullivant
Another practice would be gratitude. Gratitude turns on your relational circuits, and your relational circuits are in the right hemisphere of your brain. Yes, non-verbal, faster. Typically faster than conscious thought. And that's. And they're actual circuits in. Wow. It's it's that's what these relational. How do I know I'm in relational mode? You know I know I'm in relational mode when and so you want to live with your relational circuits on and our culture hasn't taught us to do that.
00;17;07;10 - 00;17;09;11
Michael Sullivant
Our culture has taught us to keep them off.
00;17;09;13 - 00;17;19;22
Murray Dueck
Can you can you go over some of those points of when you know you're in a relational mode because everybody will sit out there listening, going, and you take it through their look over their life. That'll be great. Just yeah.
00;17;19;24 - 00;17;26;16
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. You know, I'd have to read them. If you have them handy, pull them up and you can read them for us.
00;17;26;16 - 00;17;27;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I have.
00;17;27;12 - 00;18;00;23
Michael Sullivant
You do that because that's a way of that. That's a way of knowing, you know, am I in relational mode or not? But another way to turn your circuits on is to be grateful. Gratitude turns on your relational circuits. And so what we've discovered now is that gratitude is interactive. It's the easy onramp into hearing the voice of God because God inspires a grateful heart and he speaks back just like when your kids are grateful to you, right?
00;18;00;25 - 00;18;16;08
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. What does it do? And your go all they noticed and you respond, yeah. Evokes a response. So your gratitude evokes a response from God. And that is a relational brain skill. One of the 20.
00;18;16;10 - 00;18;19;01
Murray Dueck
So, you know, guys, you guys listening? Can you.
00;18;19;04 - 00;18;19;23
Joshua Hoffert
Can you see those?
00;18;19;23 - 00;18;21;16
Michael Sullivant
Michael Yeah.
00;18;21;18 - 00;18;24;05
Murray Dueck
Okay. Do you want to read it? Michael Or do you you.
00;18;24;05 - 00;18;26;25
Michael Sullivant
Go, you hit.
00;18;26;28 - 00;18;42;24
Murray Dueck
And so I can only see the number eight, so I guess you can scroll it up. Josh Yeah, I can, yeah. Okay. So everyone, you know, just as you hear this, just kind of look where your thoughts go. Look what happens in your brain and what you're thinking about. Here we go. How do you know you're in relational mode?
00;18;42;26 - 00;19;13;02
Murray Dueck
I know I'm in relational mode when I listen to others without my answer running you. So you're not answering everything. You're actually listening. I know I'm in a relational mode. When I spontaneously pause to greet someone warmly. I know I'm in relational mode when my voice tones, cadence and volume are fitting for the subject and setting, I know I'm in relational mode when it feels natural and easy to make appropriate eye contact with others.
00;19;13;04 - 00;19;35;25
Murray Dueck
I know I'm in relational mode when I do not tense up or feel threatened when others express a different viewpoint than I have. I'm sorry I had a memory right there. I know I'm in relational mode when I am not striving to prove that I'm right or to win an argument. Being right is too often a booby prize in life.
00;19;35;28 - 00;19;55;13
Murray Dueck
I know I'm in a relational mode when I'm not secretly wishing or planning to be at a different situation. I know I'm in relational mode when I shed tears because another person is or people are suffering a couple more. I know I'm in relational mode when I'm planning on how to show kindness to another person.
00;19;55;13 - 00;19;56;20
Joshua Hoffert
That's a good one.
00;19;56;22 - 00;20;13;22
Murray Dueck
I know I'm in relational mode when I am free to share a personal need, failure or weakness with others. Brilliant being it being and acting in a relational mode is not passivity but a mighty spiritual weapon. To neutralize is an overturned evil in our father's world.
00;20;14;05 - 00;20;18;23
Joshua Hoffert
I love. I love the selling point.
00;20;18;25 - 00;20;21;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah, it ties it up nicely.
00;20;21;02 - 00;20;22;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;20;22;17 - 00;20;40;23
Murray Dueck
But you're right. I mean, we don't even. I just wanted to read that because when I read it, I realized, you know, it should be natural to have to know these things, But. But when you see the checklist, you realize, you can see very clearly when I'm doing it or I'm not doing once you see the checklist.
00;20;40;25 - 00;20;47;18
Murray Dueck
But to do it automatically, well, we've lost that in our culture. You know, it's it's we're so busy.
00;20;47;18 - 00;20;48;06
Joshua Hoffert
So can you.
00;20;48;06 - 00;21;12;01
Michael Sullivant
See your relational circuits are in the cingulate cortex, primarily in your right hemisphere, and they are literal circuits and they literally go on or they turn off and we are meant to live with them on and on. So we have to notice when they go off so that we can turn them back on. And we need to notice when they go dim so that we can re-energize them.
00;21;12;04 - 00;21;39;23
Michael Sullivant
And we can. And our culture has taught us to turn them off old. And so this what this does is it forces us into left hemisphere capacities that are not designed by God to be dominant in our over our lives. The right hemisphere is designed to be dominant. It's your brilliant leader, your brilliant inspirational leader. Your left hemisphere is your manager.
00;21;39;28 - 00;21;49;01
Michael Sullivant
But we have the manager. We fired them, we fired the leader, and we've promoted the manager to be the leader and and then we wonder why our culture is messed up.
00;21;49;03 - 00;22;08;01
Murray Dueck
Wow. I think I think I remember reading this quote by this guy named Roger Sperry, I think was his name, who did was a big brain science guy. And yet I think he said after just after high school, you've taken 2400 tests or 24,000 tests, something crazy. And the left side of your brain actually weighs a bit more than the right.
00;22;08;04 - 00;22;15;07
Murray Dueck
Jessica That it's got all that use. And the other side is like, what have we done with it in school? You know, it's it's just been kind of dormant.
00;22;15;07 - 00;22;26;20
Joshua Hoffert
So can you can you talk maybe a little bit, Michael, just in briefly, because you mentioned the the fast track mode of the brain.
00;22;26;23 - 00;22;27;05
Murray Dueck
Yes.
00;22;27;05 - 00;22;47;14
Joshua Hoffert
And and when I when I read about that in the renovated book, I that was eye opening to me because one of the points that Jim while there makes is that most of our discipleship models are based on the slow track and and they don't actually address the fast track because the fast track is quicker than the speed of thought.
00;22;47;17 - 00;23;11;02
Joshua Hoffert
And it's you getting angry when someone cuts you off. You don't plan for that to happen. It just happens. And he and he talked about a mutual mind with the father and and I and it's caused me to reflect back on the people that have influenced me that faster than the speed of thought. I am thinking who are my people and how do we respond to this?
00;23;11;09 - 00;23;27;28
Joshua Hoffert
That that to me was really, really insightful, informative and helpful when it comes to thinking about my life transformation, who I put myself around, the kind of people I turn to, that kind of stuff. So maybe you could just, you know, to go into it.
00;23;27;28 - 00;23;28;15
Murray Dueck
Really.
00;23;28;18 - 00;23;32;13
Joshua Hoffert
Deeply, but we'll just see where it goes. But if you can touch on that.
00;23;32;16 - 00;23;45;10
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, so the life model through neuroscience we've discovered in most of our neuroscience comes from Dr. Alan Shaw out of UCLA. He's done seminal work on this for decades with his teams.
00;23;45;15 - 00;23;49;11
Joshua Hoffert
And he has a real doctorate. It's not one of those fake doctorates from a degree, right?
00;23;49;14 - 00;24;28;08
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, he's he's a he's a professor at USC now. UCLA, not UCLA. UCLA Pretty professor. Alan Shorter. Yeah. Incredible. So the you're you're Brant you you process we process reality along a pathway in our brains so we knew information comes into our spinal column through our sensors there are brain signals and the first part of your brain that receives the signal is deep deep inside the right hemisphere.
00;24;28;10 - 00;24;55;24
Michael Sullivant
And it's your attachment center. And your attachment center is well-developed at birth. And also the attachment center is filtering out reality because you can't pay attention to everything. You only pay attention to what's personal to you. So you're so if it's personal to you, then your attachment center grabs, it lights up, is active the next the next level.
00;24;55;24 - 00;25;21;25
Michael Sullivant
And it's it's a hierarchy. So it begins in the thalamus and nucleus accumbens down deep inside the right hemisphere. That's where the signals start. And then they fire. And then the next level it goes to is the amygdala. And these are well known that fight flight or freeze chemicals that are released. If it's bad or scary, if it's good, then they don't.
00;25;21;28 - 00;25;45;20
Michael Sullivant
And so we're you know, we respond accordingly. If it's something good, then the signals carry through, carry on. They go up to the next level, the cingulate cortex. This is where you experience a mutual mind with another person. In other words, when I see your face, it's facial recognition. When I see your face, I have a sense of what you're thinking.
00;25;45;22 - 00;26;15;02
Michael Sullivant
I'm able to have a mutual mind with you. And and so this is a very important relational reality in our lives, is to have good faces, loving people, good people who shine their face on us. And this is how we mature and it's also how we regulate the big disruptive emotions like you mentioned, anger. So sadness, anger, disgust, shame, fear and despair hardwired into your right hemisphere.
00;26;15;05 - 00;26;45;16
Michael Sullivant
And what maturity is, is learning how to manage and animate and metabolize those big emotions because God intends them for good to help you mature. And so Satan means them for evil to wipe you out. So this the cingulate cortex is level three, and this is where the relational circuits are, and this is where we manage big emotions and it's where we experience a mutual mind state with another person.
00;26;45;18 - 00;27;08;04
Michael Sullivant
Level four is the identity center, the joy center of your of your brain. And this is like the executive control center. It has the mute button. It's able to mute the amygdala when it is able to say, Wait a minute, you don't need to be afraid of that dog. That's not a bad dog. And it means the amygdala is that want to fire the fight flight and freeze chemicals.
00;27;08;06 - 00;27;45;29
Michael Sullivant
And so a well, the goal is to regulate each level and then harmonize the levels and and synchronize the levels so that you're right, hemisphere is humming with good things and it unleashes virtuous motivations that are not related to our spiritual disciplines. It unleashes joy, it unleashes peace, it unleashes love, it unleashes your group identity. And it unleashes your your awareness of who you are.
00;27;46;06 - 00;28;09;14
Michael Sullivant
You're right who you are and what your people are like. So that's kind of a quick overview of the way the brain is structured. Then those signals, as they process all the way through without interruption, they pass them their wisdom over to the left hemisphere and then the left hemisphere processes it back down the other way and it files the information.
00;28;09;16 - 00;28;33;05
Michael Sullivant
But it's good information because your right hemisphere is working well. A lot of people don't. Their right hemisphere has never been taken to the gym. It's never been worked out and their signals are getting disrupted and short circuited and they're ending up not being who God intended them to be. So this is about becoming the person God intends you to be and has always intended you to be.
00;28;33;07 - 00;28;50;06
Murray Dueck
Wow. So I notice as we're going through it, so much of this is community based. You know what I see when I connect you? You want to see a little bit about that, the effect of people on people here with the presence of God and.
00;28;50;06 - 00;29;11;29
Michael Sullivant
Well, yeah, I mean, God, God intended, intends us to live in community and in the Western world. We become so individual, individualistic that we don't have we have a skewed view of reality right? That's not real. You're born into a family. Hello. You didn't take care of yourself when you were a little baby. Somebody took care of you.
00;29;12;01 - 00;29;35;27
Michael Sullivant
This is normal. This is. This is the kingdom of God. God is delegated in a very significant way the maturation process to the human family and to the spiritual family. And where the human family fails, that's where the spiritual family is meant to come in and make up the difference. And so no man's an island. The great poet John Donne said.
00;29;35;29 - 00;29;52;18
Michael Sullivant
And the great songwriter Paul Simon said, Yes, you know, I'm a rock, I'm an island. I don't need you. I don't need love. Forget all that stuff. I am a rock, I'm an oil. I got my poetry books. You know, I can make it on my own.
00;29;52;20 - 00;29;53;14
Murray Dueck
Wow.
00;29;53;16 - 00;30;09;11
Michael Sullivant
You know, we're meant to be in the body of Christ. We're meant to be in family, you know? And the body of Christ needs to return to being a family, whether it's a big church or small church. It's got to be family. So we got to bring the family dynamics back in.
00;30;09;14 - 00;30;30;07
Murray Dueck
Well, and and, you know, just reading through a little bit of your stuff, that's a real inter, you know, intergenerational thing, right? Like have everybody there valuing because back in the day, you know, I don't remember in the nineties it was that the I don't know if you want to use the term generation of the righteous that's a little bit different.
00;30;30;07 - 00;30;45;03
Murray Dueck
But the young people were going to do it. The young people and, you know, you hear all these words, right? And and it's so good to hear everybody together. It's family and yes, sir.
00;30;45;05 - 00;31;05;29
Michael Sullivant
We've separated the generations, you know, artificially. And we need to it's not that you can't have a youth group or something like that. That's an okay. But it's we've got to keep the generations knit together, learning from each other. And we need those. We need to strengthen the vitality of youth, but we need the wisdom of the elders.
00;31;06;01 - 00;31;28;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's all. I mean, I'll tell you, the the people that I think about when it comes to who are my people and how to respond are generally 60 plus. But it's they are not, you know, 30 and below. Yes. I'm thinking about the the men and women that have poured into my life and given themselves and affection.
00;31;28;22 - 00;31;51;24
Joshua Hoffert
And, you know, when I. yeah, that's I have a great affection for that person. Warms my heart. I'm you know, I'm wondering if if not switching gears but just taking it in in a appointed direction. I remember being in the life model groups and I was you know.
00;31;51;24 - 00;31;52;28
Michael Sullivant
I was a little.
00;31;53;00 - 00;32;21;05
Joshua Hoffert
Surprised by almost everybody on there was a leader wanting to integrate these kind of practices into the either their, you know, their ministry dynamic, their personal lives, their church function. You know, we had we had senior pastors, associate pastors, ministry leaders going, I want to learn these relational exercises. And and I was, you know, pleasantly surprised by that.
00;32;21;08 - 00;32;43;05
Joshua Hoffert
And, you know, I was a leader on there wondering, you know, how do we implement these into the life groups that we're going to be launching? And I'm just thinking of leaders, you know, seeing a group of leaders come together and that's it. I'm I'm assuming a lot of the life model groups that you run are full of pastors, leaders, vocational ministers, that kind of stuff, looking at those.
00;32;43;05 - 00;33;09;18
Joshua Hoffert
So and we've seen obviously, just even looking in the last few years, the kind of devastation that happens on a leadership level when a leader lacks healthy relational practices. You know, from as big as Ravi Zacharias a couple of years ago, just devastating people, you know, to some of the stuff that comes out with with the Who, I don't even I can't think of the name.
00;33;09;18 - 00;33;36;04
Joshua Hoffert
The guy in Hillsong was the pastor that was having the affair and fell. And we just we just see it time and time again. There's a there's a a quote from Isaac, the Syrian in the in the sixth century or seventh century where he says, you have said the church has been dealing with this for a long time, is what I'm trying to say with this, where he says we have we have I'm going to paraphrase, but we have men and women who have had great impact by their by their example.
00;33;36;04 - 00;34;04;01
Joshua Hoffert
They've saved many. But because they failed to take care of their own souls, they've shipwrecked more than they've saved in the first place. And and he's lamenting the fact that we don't care. And it literally because we have because they failed to take care of their own souls. And so I'm I'm just wondering what in the context of leaders and helping leaders, you know, what what's the deal?
00;34;04;02 - 00;34;25;09
Joshua Hoffert
What seems to be why do this? Why does this keep happening in the sense of Christian leaders who I mean, these men and women aren't starting off thinking I'm going to fail miserably. They're starting off with passion. They're starting off with purpose and vision, going, you know, they're the six year old on the car going, God's real. And he's called me, right?
00;34;25;11 - 00;34;57;10
Joshua Hoffert
But somewhere along the way, you know, this this harmonization doesn't happen. So. So how do you see that happening? What are what are ways that, you know, resources for leaders to reach out to practices that leaders can engage in you? Maybe it's just as simple as saying, well, we've already been talking about. But what what might you say to two camps of Christian leaders starting out that has the gusto and the guy who's in his fifties or sixties, he's been a vocational minister for 20 or 30 years going, I'm struggling and what do I need to do?
00;34;57;12 - 00;35;00;16
Joshua Hoffert
What might you say to both those those groups of people?
00;35;00;18 - 00;35;49;04
Michael Sullivant
Well, the first thing I'd say is that we've got a problem in our culture with leadership and that we we have gravitated to gifts as the primary, you know, qualification for leaders and we've overlooked that Sometimes the giftedness is in a very unhealthy relational context. Right? And so we've promoted people that are gifted, gifted orators, gifted thinkers, gifted speakers, gifted with spiritual gifts, sometimes like the Corinthians, you know, where do we go to learn about the gifts of the Spirit, First Corinthians?
00;35;49;04 - 00;35;53;18
Michael Sullivant
Where do we go to learn about carnality in the church? First thing it's, you know, so.
00;35;53;20 - 00;35;54;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right.
00;35;54;29 - 00;36;22;09
Michael Sullivant
Carnality and gifts aren't the same. You know, they're they're two different things. Yeah. And so we've learned very much about giftedness that causes people to to create celebrity celebrity culture. And our culture is just full of celebrity. Right. That's what everybody aspires to be is a celebrity. I'm exaggerate it. But this is the part.
00;36;22;16 - 00;36;43;17
Joshua Hoffert
I exaggerate too much on that one. I mean, that it's it's becoming more and more prevalent with social media. I mean, you still look at the studies now, young adults, they're they're I mean, they fail to find happiness if they're not known on Instagram. That's what they want to be. They want to be known. It's like, you know, 40, 50 years ago, it was I want to be successful.
00;36;43;20 - 00;36;49;18
Joshua Hoffert
I want to have a family. Right. And today it's I want to be known. It's it's it's not slowing down.
00;36;49;21 - 00;37;22;26
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. Yeah. So to me, this is the cultural problem. Yeah, there's cultural forces, evil powers at work, too, ignite people's ambition, selfish ambition. And we've kind of crucified that now as Christians. Yeah, some of this got to go to death. Yeah. And and we've created a religious world where selfish ambition has been allowed to be rampant, and we actually capitalize on it, and we promote those people.
00;37;22;26 - 00;37;48;01
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. That have those, that kind of charm. And this is where we need the ancients to help us, you know? Come on, come back to true humility here. Come on. You know, I think a lot of people aspire to leadership because they want to be wealthy and they want to be famous. It's like those are two things we got to crucify right?
00;37;48;03 - 00;37;51;18
Michael Sullivant
Not not promote and capitalize.
00;37;51;20 - 00;37;51;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;37;51;29 - 00;38;17;23
Michael Sullivant
Yeah. So this is a big problem. And and then just being confused about gifts and holiness, you know, that giftedness is not the same as health. Yeah. Holiness and healthiness are together. So this is that sound mind piece of the Holy Spirit's work. We, we want to promote people that are of sound mind and we don't we promote people that are not of sound mind because they're gifted and we need their gift.
00;38;17;23 - 00;38;37;23
Michael Sullivant
And it's it's helping us be, quote, you know, make an impact or be successful. So I think the whole system is skewed, generally speaking, and that's what we need to reform. We need to be reformers who are bold and say, no, we're not going to do it that way. We're going to do it the way we read about it.
00;38;37;23 - 00;38;50;02
Michael Sullivant
You know, remember the gospels, remember, you know, the book of Acts. Let's do it like that, you know, and let's do like the early church fathers, you know, who had their heads on straight.
00;38;50;04 - 00;39;13;13
Murray Dueck
You know, just an interesting question with that. You know, like if I'm just thinking about, you know, I've been through a bunch of church splits, unfortunately. And so often it you know, it happens around a person's vision mainly, or inability to do their vision and sometimes teaching. But they sure never happens around love. You know, you don't see anybody breaking a church up.
00;39;13;13 - 00;39;43;14
Murray Dueck
There's too much love there. I couldn't take it anymore, you know, And and when you look at, you know, life model and, just the questions that we went through on there, they're all very right brain they're very activating that that you know, that gratitude center like you said. But when you look at even spiritual gifts I mean pending what model you're throwing them through, they're very left brained in so many ways, like vision building can be left brain, you know, admitting building models, building, even building the church.
00;39;43;14 - 00;39;58;18
Murray Dueck
We need more leaders. We need a deliverance center. We need, you know. Ed And do you see that as you change what aspect of a person's brain they're living out of, Do you see the church changing? Can you see effect there?
00;39;58;20 - 00;40;29;25
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, Yeah. These are the right hemisphere is a host to attachment love. This has got to this is attachment theory. And we need to have our models of maturity and sanctification built around attachment love. This is biblical. The attachment. Love is biblical. It's the word hassid. And in Hebrew. So love. And then when there's true love, there's joy.
00;40;29;28 - 00;41;05;14
Michael Sullivant
We need a lot more joy. Yeah, yeah. And when there's joy, there's peace and shalom. First, three aspects of the fruit of the Spirit. Lovejoy Peace that lead to the fourth, which is patience, resiliency, endurance. These are the virtues, these are the virtues that are hosted in the right hemispheres of our brains that need to be unleashed. These are pre conscious virtues that happen because of relationship, healthy, wholly loving relationships with God and with God's people.
00;41;05;16 - 00;41;10;13
Michael Sullivant
And so I can't remember your question now, but I tell you.
00;41;10;15 - 00;41;12;11
Murray Dueck
You're on top. You're just right on it.
00;41;12;14 - 00;41;17;09
Joshua Hoffert
As you as you move into a healthier expression. How have you seen a change and help?
00;41;17;11 - 00;41;45;22
Michael Sullivant
I see I see people I see people experiencing a lot more love from God and a lot more love with God. Back to God. I see a lot more peace. I see a lot more joy, a lot more. We're not talking about just a little bit. Lot more. Yeah. And and these are the things that that cause the church to to be the true church to to work.
00;41;45;22 - 00;42;13;17
Michael Sullivant
Well, you know, like James warns us about a wisdom that doesn't come from above but is earthly natural and demonic. You know, they contrast that with the wisdom from above and just read through the virtues of the wisdom that comes from above. These are the kinds of things Colossians chapter three, you know, set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
00;42;13;17 - 00;42;23;27
Michael Sullivant
Well, what are those things above and he lists them, It's love, it's patience. It's very practical stuff. It's not contemplating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
00;42;23;27 - 00;42;27;05
Murray Dueck
Yes, right. For a queen, it's love.
00;42;27;05 - 00;42;50;02
Michael Sullivant
Your love, your neighbor, love your enemy. Forgive. Be patient with one another. Just look at the virtues. There. Colossians chapter three. He says, These are the things above. From above. The things of the earth are also really clear. They're not your home and how you dress, your clothing and whether you're eating or not or it's not that stuff.
00;42;50;02 - 00;43;15;02
Michael Sullivant
It's it's lust and greed and avarice and, you know, cursing and all that stuff. So they're very, very practical lists. And these are the things that we need to build into the lives of our children and the lives of our spiritual children. And we got to make sure that our spiritual parents have a good amount of that stuff going on.
00;43;15;04 - 00;43;18;13
Michael Sullivant
Amen.
00;43;18;15 - 00;43;20;22
Murray Dueck
Well, I got one more question, I think.
00;43;20;24 - 00;43;21;24
Joshua Hoffert
Go ahead.
00;43;21;27 - 00;43;25;20
Murray Dueck
Okay. This whole this idea of the golden moment.
00;43;25;23 - 00;43;29;10
Joshua Hoffert
I was just going to ask about that. That's great. Yeah. Go for it.
00;43;29;14 - 00;43;30;26
Michael Sullivant
Or mutual mind.
00;43;30;29 - 00;43;31;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah.
00;43;31;28 - 00;43;33;14
Murray Dueck
You go right there.
00;43;33;16 - 00;43;45;22
Joshua Hoffert
We've said Murray and I just as a side note, Michael book, when we're going to the mutual mind thing where we're going to record an episode, we usually end up talking for an hour and a half, mistakenly before hitting record.
00;43;45;28 - 00;43;49;05
Murray Dueck
Just about, yeah, why didn't we record that? Why didn't respect that?
00;43;49;05 - 00;43;52;12
Joshua Hoffert
And yeah, yeah. So yes, very much so.
00;43;52;15 - 00;44;12;23
Murray Dueck
Boy, a lot, lots of stuff on there. So a golden memory, you know, I bought off, I got to in the middle I've all these little questions around that but, but so the golden memory are moments in people's lives and they may not even remember the right moments in people's lives. You're God is touch them deeply, like when you were a kid on top of that car, for example.
00;44;12;25 - 00;44;43;04
Murray Dueck
Right. Or maybe being down in Dallas. Willard for the first time or the spirit of God touching there they are, right? There's lots of them in our culture. When we think of church culture, especially the charismatic culture, we're trained to go forward. What's the next revelation? What's the next conference? The next thing? And it's almost like when God touches it, they get forgotten, forgotten, you know, And and I like to tell people, you know, you've got to live prairie inside of you, of moments with God books on your show that you need to go back and pull them down.
00;44;43;06 - 00;45;04;16
Murray Dueck
Right and and and they're still full of the same presence That presence is there And and we've so trained people to look forward in almost not backwards. They don't know their own journey anymore, it seems to me. You know. And and so when you're working with people, how do you how do you see this? A couple of questions, right?
00;45;04;17 - 00;45;24;28
Murray Dueck
How do you see the the effect of finding a divine moment, a golden moment, And and how do you reconnect people to that? Like, how do you do that? And what do you see happen when they they start to? Because those golden moments are full of the encounter, the peace, the love, the joy, whatever. Right. It comes back that that must be right.
00;45;24;28 - 00;45;26;08
Murray Dueck
Brain.
00;45;26;10 - 00;46;08;18
Michael Sullivant
You know, it happens easily. The golden memories happen easily. Generally speaking, if you can find one. Because what we do is we just invite God to speak to the heart of the person as they relive the sights, the sounds, the smells, the emotions of those moments. And it's easy to connect with God in those beautiful spaces. And so I'll just read a few phrases to everybody because this is how the golden memories get remembered.
00;46;08;21 - 00;46;45;19
Michael Sullivant
Is it's a moment in your life where everything felt it was as it should be. It was a moment in your life when the beauty of God's creation affected you and you were captivated by it, or it was a moment in your life when all of your gifts and talents were working together and you weren't striving to perform, but you were performing at a peak level because everything was working together and it was like second nature to do what you were doing and you were doing it really well.
00;46;45;21 - 00;47;21;06
Michael Sullivant
It might have been a moment when that a sense of transcendent peace came upon you that you couldn't explain. It might have been a moment when you were like, I think I know why God put me on the planet. A sense of purpose it might have been when you shed tears, but not tears of sorrow, but tears of wonder or tears of joy or or maybe it was a story or a song that was touching you and you started crying and you didn't even maybe know why you were crying.
00;47;21;08 - 00;47;56;10
Michael Sullivant
Maybe it was a moment where you felt just you're like you were more fully alive than you normally are, or it might have been an awareness of God's presence. Like, God is right here, right now. Or it might have been a moment when you knew that you were being loved well by another person. So those are some of the phrases I speak out as we get into a place of prayer and people start remembering these special moments.
00;47;56;12 - 00;48;06;18
Michael Sullivant
If you get two or three of them, you're starting to get wealthy, you know? But I have many, many more in my life. I have over 200 Wow memories.
00;48;06;21 - 00;48;10;22
Joshua Hoffert
So do you. You keep a record of them. You journal about them? Yeah.
00;48;10;24 - 00;48;23;20
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, yeah. I've put them in a list. And once you've nickname them, then when you see the nickname, you can go back to it right fast track and you don't even have to consciously think through it all. Just all the feelings come back instantly.
00;48;23;26 - 00;48;40;26
Joshua Hoffert
So. So the nickname. So that's part of the exercise, right? So can you just give us the the for people that are listening, if they wanted to practice this at home, what are the what if you were to lead someone through the exercise? What are the questions and what do you have them what do you have them dwell on?
00;48;40;26 - 00;49;11;02
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, I'd say go back and listen to the things I read. Yeah. You know, off number one. And then just see what comes to mind. And then when something comes to mind, relive it. Sights, sounds, smell, emotions, the setting, relive it, and then ask the Lord, Lord, I remember that so well. It's indelibly imprinted upon me. It's an iconic moment in my life.
00;49;11;04 - 00;49;40;10
Michael Sullivant
Surely you were nearby. Where were you? Were you there? And Lord, were you whispering something into my heart that I'd never heard before? Maybe you did hear something, but maybe you didn't. Most of the time you didn't. Because we just tend to go through these experiences in life and chalk them up to experience, but we don't necessarily interact with God around them, so we go back and fetch them and then we say, Now, Lord, what were you saying to me?
00;49;40;12 - 00;49;50;06
Michael Sullivant
And the Holy Spirit is all over those beautiful moments of your history. And He will show you something.
00;49;50;08 - 00;49;54;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And then and then you out, you say nickname the memory.
00;49;54;05 - 00;50;07;02
Michael Sullivant
And the nickname. Yeah. So one of mine is the Fireflies. And I saw thousands of fireflies. I never even knew they existed. I mean, these little bugs whose butts light up, you know?
00;50;07;02 - 00;50;08;22
Joshua Hoffert
Like what? What?
00;50;08;25 - 00;50;25;11
Michael Sullivant
How is this possible? I was five years old. Yeah, and I've gone back into that memory because it was so vivid to me. Yeah, I never forgot it. And I said, Lord, where were you? He said, my God, I was there. I'm the father of lights.
00;50;25;22 - 00;50;28;11
Joshua Hoffert
wow. Right.
00;50;28;14 - 00;50;41;08
Michael Sullivant
And I have made you to be a person from long ago who's fascinated by my lights. And I'm going to show you all kinds of divine lights throughout your life.
00;50;41;10 - 00;50;41;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right?
00;50;41;22 - 00;50;43;26
Michael Sullivant
So be on the lookout.
00;50;43;29 - 00;50;51;15
Joshua Hoffert
Wow. So. So now you hear the fireflies and immediately you're back to there. You've got it.
00;50;51;15 - 00;50;51;28
Michael Sullivant
I go.
00;50;51;28 - 00;50;52;14
Joshua Hoffert
Back.
00;50;52;17 - 00;51;07;16
Michael Sullivant
I'm doing it right now. I'm there. I'm. Yeah, I'm right there. Remember the smell in the air? I remember my my siblings and my cousins being there. I remember the feeling of catching these fireflies in jars. my God.
00;51;07;16 - 00;51;39;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah that's beautiful. We've been using that a little bit in those that kind of idea in training prophetic people to get them relationally connected before they prophesy. Yeah. And so here, let's do a little connection exercise let's find the father. And then and I found that even in because one of the things you did in the group was you had you opened it up for okay, well let's hear and I love you just said let's hear your title, your nickname right then that evokes curiosity.
00;51;39;01 - 00;52;02;01
Joshua Hoffert
And we want to know more about each other. Right? And so when I said when I had people a golden moment and golden memory, I having people share them and then asking, then having like I had this, this I had them sharing that had now asked the Lord what he might say through you to that person about their memory.
00;52;02;07 - 00;52;03;17
Michael Sullivant
Ooh, right, love that.
00;52;03;21 - 00;52;25;28
Joshua Hoffert
And so now you've got the relational exercises going the golden moments. They're the spirits. They're they're hearing for themselves, they're hearing for others now and prophetic ministry and it's integrated. Context is the mind of Christ being made known. And it's like it's just one step away to prophesy from that place now and speak into that place. And so I love those kind of exercises because I find them.
00;52;25;28 - 00;52;27;03
Murray Dueck
To ring brilliant.
00;52;27;05 - 00;52;50;20
Joshua Hoffert
Much a better context for, okay, now let's line everybody up and now get a word and give a word. And now everybody has 52 life saving words, and some of them might be national, right? It's it is it's just a better context for teaching people the simplicity of prophecy and sharing the father's heart. Okay. One last thing, Michael, if we can, and I'll let you go.
00;52;50;22 - 00;52;52;11
Murray Dueck
We will rise out.
00;52;52;13 - 00;53;17;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we've rung. Yeah, we've right. We could probably go four more hours the way I just love all that you're sharing. One of I found one of the most impactful exercises that you let us through was the Psalm 139 exercise. And, and so, you know, I'd encourage anybody listening to to practice the golden moment exercise exactly as Michaels laid out.
00;53;17;10 - 00;53;21;20
Joshua Hoffert
And I'd encourage Murray, who's listening now, to listen back to it.
00;53;21;22 - 00;53;25;18
Murray Dueck
I want to ask the question in some ways.
00;53;25;21 - 00;53;26;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.
00;53;26;02 - 00;53;27;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah, there you go.
00;53;27;09 - 00;53;56;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, there you go. The the Psalm 139 exercise. Can you describe that? And, you know, seeing seeing the sing the face of God, the aspects of God and and I loved how you led us into the last couple of verses, see if there's any way of pain within me. And that was just a beautiful thing. So as a as another relational exercise connecting with the father and seeing as seeing him anyway, can you what?
00;53;56;04 - 00;53;58;21
Joshua Hoffert
What's the exercise?
00;53;58;23 - 00;54;03;22
Michael Sullivant
Yeah, I've never thought of it as an exercise. I thought of it as a biblical meditation.
00;54;03;22 - 00;54;06;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Well that that's a good yes. Yeah.
00;54;06;01 - 00;54;34;06
Michael Sullivant
That's the DNA, right where you pray the scripture. Yeah. Right. So, so Psalm 139 is it's, there's no other Psalm like it, this amazing psalm David wrote. And like I say, I've never heard a Bible teacher or theologian suggest David It was only true of David, you know. Yes. And if it's if it's not just if it's not just for David his life, then it's for everybody, right?
00;54;34;06 - 00;55;02;16
Michael Sullivant
It's for all of us. And it is a universal psalm about how God created us out of love. And there's something more original about us than sin. And it is the good creation. And he's the one who made us in our mother's wombs. He knit us together in the depths of the womb, and then David comes out of the womb, in a sense, and he's looking in the mirror.
00;55;02;16 - 00;55;28;09
Michael Sullivant
He says, Wonderful, are your works. He's looking at himself. I'm one of your works. Wonderful are your works. My soul knows it very well. So do you know that you're created? You're an image bearer. You were created by your Heavenly Father. Satan never created a human being, only God. And so He's our Creator. And many Bible teachers will say this God, you belong to God twice.
00;55;28;11 - 00;55;49;24
Michael Sullivant
You belong to Him through creation first, and then you belong to him a second time through salvation. You mean so? So this is beautiful. This is all the way back to your genesis. All the way back to your nativity and. And that. Where can I go from your spirit? You know, I go to the highest heaven, the deepest hell.
00;55;49;24 - 00;56;14;04
Michael Sullivant
I go to the farthest reaches of the sea. Lord, you're there in your hand is upon me. You're the God who is there. And then, you know, that's the first part of the psalm. And then he says, Even in the darkest times of my journey, it's all light to you. There's no darkness. You see it all, and you've always been there in our darkest times.
00;56;14;06 - 00;56;50;05
Michael Sullivant
You've never left us alone. And then he says this amazing thing, and there was a book that was written of all of my days before I lived any one of them. And this is God's plan for our lives and so this is the the theological basis of of the Emmanuel lifestyle. God was always nearby. This is what Paul told the Athenian in 17 that that people are ordained to seek the Lord in hopes.
00;56;50;08 - 00;57;16;20
Michael Sullivant
This is the hope in God's heart that they will grope for Him and find him. Though he's not far from each one of us, he's telling pre-Christian Pagan idol worshiping philosophers that God's not far away from each one of them. So this is, you know, we've overemphasized separation from God in theology now. And it's it's it's a caricature ization of the way it really it's in my DNA.
00;57;16;23 - 00;57;41;08
Michael Sullivant
So. So this is Psalm 139 then at the end, of course, he has that interlude where he says about the wicked, you know, God, just destroy all the wicked, You know, we got to spiritualized that. We got to call our enemies, the demonic forces, not human forces, right? Yeah. Yeah. So we are flesh and blood are not our enemies, but the spiritual forces of darkness are, so we can apply it to that.
00;57;41;10 - 00;58;02;17
Michael Sullivant
And then finally he says, Search me. God. And know my heart. Right? So in verse one, he says, You have searched me, Lord, but now he's welcoming by the last verses, his welcoming in the search. Search me now, Lord, Yes, you love me. You've been with me. You're the you're the you're the good God, You're the great God.
00;58;02;21 - 00;58;28;01
Michael Sullivant
You're the God who has always been nearby me. Your God who has preserved me, protected me, Provided for me. Now yes, Lord, search my heart and know me and see if there be any, you know, different translations. King James Wicked way in me. But that doesn't fit. Wicked doesn't fit the context very well. But what does is the Hebrew.
00;58;28;07 - 00;58;53;24
Michael Sullivant
Search me. Lord, try me. Know my heart. See if there is a way of pain in me. And resolve. Resolve of the way of pain in my life so that I'm not driven by my pains. I'm not reacting out of my pains in life. And the pains are come from three sources our own failures for sure, great pain.
00;58;53;26 - 00;59;18;23
Michael Sullivant
But it's not just our failures, it's also the injustices of life that have happened to us. And then it's also just the events of life that sometimes happen that seem tragic and create pain. So those are the three sources of pain that break the human heart. And the psalmist is saying, Lord, come and heal my broken heart. This is what this what the Messiah does.
00;59;18;23 - 00;59;47;19
Michael Sullivant
He's come to heal the broken hearted. So we receive forgiveness for our failures. We are released from bitterness and resentment, from the injustices of others against us, and we forgive them. And then with the trials of life that happen and the pains of life that happen, you need to know that God was always right there and He'll reframe the story and tell you a better story.
00;59;47;19 - 00;59;50;25
Michael Sullivant
They man about what really happened.
00;59;50;28 - 01;00;15;19
Joshua Hoffert
And that brings us full circle. Yeah. Murray, do you have it? Thank you so much for bringing that out, Michael. That I love how you've expanded on Psalm 139. I found it very rich and I think you emailed me your thoughts at one point. I probably wrung your arm a little bit to get it out of you. You did?
01;00;15;21 - 01;00;20;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I think I did. Yes. And I found it very helpful.
01;00;20;04 - 01;00;21;12
Michael Sullivant
Share. Share away.
01;00;21;17 - 01;00;22;24
Joshua Hoffert
Share, share.
01;00;22;27 - 01;00;23;26
Michael Sullivant
Share away.
01;00;23;29 - 01;00;29;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. So, Murray, any part any last thoughts?
01;00;29;22 - 01;00;44;04
Murray Dueck
sure. I mean, there's always more more thoughts and more questions, but I think we should maybe give Michael a break here. We've had him sit there for 2 hours without food or water, and maybe I'll just ask.
01;00;44;04 - 01;00;45;14
Joshua Hoffert
It's during that asking of him.
01;00;45;21 - 01;01;06;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah, very monastic of you. And maybe I'll just say this. You know, it's interesting. When I used to read Luke ten and these disciples come back, Lord, even the demons submit to us, you know, and Jesus says, Don't rejoice in that. You know, rejoice. Your names are written in the book. And he turns to the father and says, Father, thank you've revealed these things not to the wise and Lord, but to the to the to the to the little children.
01;01;06;00 - 01;01;22;15
Murray Dueck
And he and you have to kind of picture him turning to the disciples. At that point, nobody knows the father unless his son reveals them. There's an introduction going on there. You know, and those three words name written in No, the only recur or occur in one other place, and that's Exodus 33. You know, Moses says, Strike me out of your book.
01;01;22;15 - 01;01;42;14
Murray Dueck
32 And then him and have that chat. And he goes, Who are you going with this or not? He goes, Because I know you by name, and Jesus uses those three words, and it's that book. It's this relational book. Jesus says, Rejoice in the you're known forever. Every freaking day, every everything about you. God knows, rejoice in that.
01;01;42;17 - 01;01;59;23
Murray Dueck
That's Luke ten and it's just the way you did. It was so brilliant because that's what Jesus was saying there, you guys, to rejoice in what you do. You rejoice that you're no, I. Anyway, it's just brilliant. Anyway, I just thought that was a brilliant full circle. So there you go. I had something saying I should.
01;01;59;24 - 01;02;01;12
Michael Sullivant
Thank you, Murray. Beautiful.
01;02;01;14 - 01;02;18;09
Joshua Hoffert
So. So, Michael, it as we're as we're wrapping up any how can people get a hold of the resources, get in contact with life model. They have more questions. Maybe they want to join one of the groups What, what what kind of stuff can they do?
01;02;18;15 - 01;02;19;02
Murray Dueck
We would love.
01;02;19;02 - 01;02;21;20
Michael Sullivant
Life model works dot org and.
01;02;21;20 - 01;02;23;20
Joshua Hoffert
We'll we'll link that in the podcast for sure.
01;02;24;01 - 01;02;58;02
Michael Sullivant
life model works dot org. And then we have these three sections, three sections that speak beginning belonging become in. And so if you look under belonging then you can find the study groups and it just tells you what you need to know to join a group. So when you go to our website, check it out, kind of dance around the website, you'll find what you're looking for and and then certainly make friends with me on Facebook.
01;02;58;02 - 01;03;02;22
Michael Sullivant
I'm a Facebook guy. So nice. Make friends with me on Facebook. I'd love to be your friend.
01;03;02;25 - 01;03;24;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, those those the relational. You're no, you're in relational mode. Statements that Murray read all came from Michael's Facebook. He'd been he's been posting them daily on Facebook for the last week and a half or so and very, very timely. Good stuff. There's there's always two things you post, Michael, that I'm like I want to know more Post another one.
01;03;24;05 - 01;03;26;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
01;03;26;09 - 01;03;27;07
Michael Sullivant
Good.
01;03;27;09 - 01;03;49;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So thanks so much for coming on the podcast. It's been such an honor, so rich the time together, and I'm just praying that each one of the listeners is as enriched as I feel right now. And yeah, that's full circle right now. And we're just, we're just like, Thank you for saying yes when you were six to that moment.
01;03;49;25 - 01;03;50;11
Murray Dueck
Yes.
01;03;50;11 - 01;03;57;18
Joshua Hoffert
And, and the fruit that it's born for us today. And so yes, yes.
01;03;57;20 - 01;04;02;11
Michael Sullivant
I must say it happened faster than my choice.
01;04;02;13 - 01;04;04;11
Murray Dueck
You live in your model. There you go.
01;04;04;17 - 01;04;08;04
Michael Sullivant
Happen. It's just happened. God engaged me.
01;04;08;07 - 01;04;13;25
Joshua Hoffert
So I guess I won't. I won't. Thank you for saying yes. I'll think the father for giving it to you. Yes.
01;04;13;25 - 01;04;15;00
Murray Dueck
There you go.
01;04;15;03 - 01;04;38;04
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. So. Well, everybody, it's been a great time together. I hope that you're you're enriched, you're full, you're fed. And and take a look at the life model, work stuff and and implement some of these practices. And, you know, if you're wrestling as a leader, wrestling with burnout, wrestling with temptation, wrestling with these things, I don't find Michael on Facebook, you know, find Marie.
01;04;38;04 - 01;05;03;01
Joshua Hoffert
And I would we will get you connected with resources that will help you. Yeah. Because it's something that we're passionate about is helping, especially helping leaders that are really struggling to find their way and find their settled this in the Lord. So, yeah, like, like reach out to us and we'll help. So thanks everybody. Murray Thanks for jumping back in after your power went out and well, until next time, everybody.
01;05;03;03 - 01;05;04;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. God bless.
01;05;04;15 - 01;05;05;08
Murray Dueck
Thank you, everyone.