In today's episode, "The Spiritual Potency of the Persecuted Church," we're diving into the experiences of those who stay strong in their faith, even when things get really hard.
Our guest, Greg Musselman from "Voice of the Martyrs," knows a lot about this. He's spent a long time helping people who are persecuted for their beliefs. Tune in as Greg shares real stories that show how faith can become even stronger in tough times. We'll talk about how people facing religious persecution find a kind of inner strength that many of us might not fully understand.
For more about Greg and Voice of the Martyrs, visit: https://www.vomcanada.com/
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
In today's episode, "The Spiritual Potency of the Persecuted Church," we're diving into the experiences of those who stay strong in their faith, even when things get really hard.
Our guest, Greg Musselman from "Voice of the Martyrs," knows a lot about this. He's spent a long time helping people who are persecuted for their beliefs. Tune in as Greg shares real stories that show how faith can become even stronger in tough times. We'll talk about how people facing religious persecution find a kind of inner strength that many of us might not fully understand.
For more about Greg and Voice of the Martyrs, visit: https://www.vomcanada.com/
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
00;00;18;21 - 00;01;00;10
Greg Musselman
Because everywhere we are is a mission field. You know, when I left, you know, television sportscasting, we go to Bible school. Well, if I'm a serious Christian, I got to go to Bible school and I got to become a pastor. I totally think differently now. In fact, some of the best opportunities I've had, you know, in terms of witnessing have been with fellow broadcasters.
00;01;00;12 - 00;01;03;28
Murray Dueck
Welcome, everybody, to Voices from the Desert.
00;01;04;01 - 00;01;05;08
Joshua Hoffert
Desert deserves.
00;01;05;14 - 00;01;10;22
Murray Dueck
Our moon. Whoo hoo!
00;01;11;08 - 00;01;14;10
Joshua Hoffert
there's a there's a conservative voice there, isn't there?
00;01;14;15 - 00;01;20;22
Murray Dueck
Yeah. That was the good loving coyote pack. That was. That was. That was actually pretty realistic.
00;01;20;22 - 00;01;22;03
Joshua Hoffert
So we love it when our Greg's.
00;01;22;03 - 00;01;24;00
Murray Dueck
Coming back now, after that.
00;01;24;10 - 00;01;25;14
Greg Musselman
yeah, for sure.
00;01;25;16 - 00;01;28;28
Joshua Hoffert
Love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00;01;29;00 - 00;01;59;24
Murray Dueck
So? So, everyone, we are just really, really fortunate here to have Greg Musselman with us Voices from the tour, as do the voices from the desert. Voices of the Martyrs, which is even more than voices of the desert. Although there are some martyrs out there too. And just his experience of seeing what's going on in the world right now in the church, and I just being willing to put himself out there to do that and be a witness and then come back and, you know, bring the church into it, it's just quite brilliant.
00;01;59;24 - 00;02;19;29
Murray Dueck
So we were just really looking forward to this podcast. And so, Greg, you know, tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got into that, because you were a sportscaster at one time back in the day. And I think people will maybe pick that up in your voice still. How did you go from sportscasting to Voice of the Martyrs?
00;02;20;00 - 00;02;21;03
Murray Dueck
That must been great, I think.
00;02;21;05 - 00;02;26;16
Joshua Hoffert
Isn't it? Isn't it technically sportscasting to pastoring?
00;02;27;09 - 00;02;27;19
Murray Dueck
yeah.
00;02;27;19 - 00;02;45;26
Joshua Hoffert
I was anchoring to TV show personality like there's a number of different. I was looking at your at your bio. Greg, you and I have known each other for a number of years now. Yeah. As I was just loving, putting the pieces in there and. nice talking with you and your family, with Arlene and all of that.
00;02;45;28 - 00;03;11;09
Joshua Hoffert
And your wife Arlene and when you initially went to school for media or. Yeah. Communication and media, right? Yep. And then you went back to school for. To the Bible College. And so what's like. Tell us the story. How do you get from how do you get from sportscasting to. I'm an advocate now for the persecuted church.
00;03;11;12 - 00;03;34;18
Greg Musselman
Yeah, well, I grew up in Coquitlam, born in Vancouver. Mom and Dad had moved out. You know, from to the coast, from Saskatchewan farm kids. yeah. And yeah, So I grew up in Coquitlam and in high school I was I wanted to be a police officer that was kind of my first. I like the RCMP uniform, but what about grade 11 and Centennial High School and Coquitlam?
00;03;34;20 - 00;03;51;15
Greg Musselman
I started to get interested in radio, so I'd listen to the disc jockeys on 14 keep on Vancouver, and and that's what I want to do. I want to be a rock and roll disc jockey. And so I went to the Columbia School of Broadcasting to learn how to be an announcer. And so I was 18 years old.
00;03;51;15 - 00;04;08;17
Greg Musselman
And then right away out of high school, I got a job in Weyburn, Saskatchewan. Wasn't there very long. And then shortly after that, I went to Regina and I was a country announcer. And that's not what I wanted to be. But I thought, okay, I got to pay my dues here. And I actually ended up really enjoying country music.
00;04;08;17 - 00;04;31;08
Greg Musselman
The highlight in Regina meeting The Man in Black, Johnny Cash. Yeah, I got to a concert. Yeah, in Regina. Yeah, that was great. And then. And then I went to Langley out back out to the coast and was a country announcer there. And then I started to realize that, you know what? I'm not sure that I want to be a country and Western disc jockey the rest of my life.
00;04;31;11 - 00;04;55;22
Greg Musselman
And so I started transition to sports from Langley. I went to Red Deer, and then from Red Deer, I went to Medicine Hat, and that's where I got into television sports. So I've been doing announcing country, announcing in Red Deer. I started transition into sports news and then I went to Medicine Hat, and that really was probably the, you know, just one of the, you know, I guess many highlights in my life.
00;04;55;22 - 00;05;15;00
Greg Musselman
But in terms of career, over the next year, I got all over, you know, the over the nervousness that I had. In fact, when I was in high school, I couldn't get up in front of my classmates and read. I got so nervous. And in fact, the job I had in Weyburn, I only lasted like a week and a half because as soon as I got to do the news, I just get so confused and nervous.
00;05;15;03 - 00;05;34;26
Greg Musselman
So, you know. So anyway, I was able to overcome that. And when I was in Medicine Hat, they put me on television all the time and then I was doing news and just and then on radio as well. And then a year later, I got a huge break. I got a job at C K View. It's no longer called that, but one of the television stations in Vancouver.
00;05;34;28 - 00;05;51;25
Greg Musselman
So here I am, 22, 23 years old, and I'm working in my hometown. And so I'm Method Man, I've got it made. This is great. But I was still feeling an emptiness. And, you know, I've given my testimony, you know, over the years, many, many times, you know, talking about, you know, how Jesus, you know, came into my life.
00;05;52;01 - 00;06;20;12
Greg Musselman
But I really do think a lot the way he allowed me to have some success and still feel empty. And so I was still searching, you know, the next job, the next career thing. So whatever it's going to be and so one of the pivotal, pivotal things that happened in my life as I was with my dad and we had the radio on, they always had the radio on in their house and the news came on c k in Vancouver, the news station, and one of the news reports were about these young fellows from Coquitlam.
00;06;20;14 - 00;06;37;26
Greg Musselman
They were in a van. It flipped over and one of the guys was killed and his sister was in my class. And then he was a year younger than I was. And then my dad and I started talking and I said, Dad, what happens when you die? Like, I had very limited Christian experience. My grandparents were from Norway.
00;06;37;26 - 00;06;53;17
Greg Musselman
There were Norwegian Lutherans. Mom took me to church, you know, a little as a kid. And then when I was old enough not to go, I stopped going. Always had a God consciousness, I believe. And so that's, you know, so dad said, Well, when you die, that's it goes to black. And I said, Well, what's the point then?
00;06;53;17 - 00;07;13;05
Greg Musselman
Like, you know, if I'm going to build a career and I've, you know, striving for something, what's the point? And I believe that really started to lead me on to a search. And so and not long after being in Vancouver, maybe eight months, I got two job offers simultaneously, one from Edmonton and one from Calgary. The independent stations.
00;07;13;05 - 00;07;24;04
Greg Musselman
And I chose Edmonton, I think, because they had Wayne Gretzky. Yeah, great players of all time. And so I knew that. And yeah, so I end up in Edmonton and the only person actually.
00;07;24;04 - 00;07;25;11
Joshua Hoffert
Holy decision I guess.
00;07;25;12 - 00;07;47;18
Greg Musselman
Yeah. absolutely. You know, I mean the flames were okay but the Oilers had that, you know, Gretzky and Messier and of course we know they would go on to win five Stanley Cup. So that was the golden years for sports. So and it was great time. I enjoyed it. But when I got deep into the only person I knew in Edmonton was this girl that I had met in Madison had, you know, a year and a couple here.
00;07;47;19 - 00;08;11;15
Greg Musselman
He got about two years before that. And so she was living in Edmonton. Arlene, now my wife of more than 40 years. And so we started dating. And interestingly, she came to visit me in Vancouver before I, you know, moved to Edmonton. And we had this discussion at the Vancouver airport about religion because I you know, I was searching at this point and she came from a Christian, reformed Dutch background.
00;08;11;15 - 00;08;33;01
Greg Musselman
So she grew up in church but was not at that point in church, kind of, you know, straight away a little bit. And I remember having this discussion with her at the Vancouver airport saying that when, you know, when you die and if you've done more good than bad, then you're going to get to go to heaven. And even though she was not, you know, engaged in the church much at that time, she said no, you got to believe in Jesus and he died for your sins.
00;08;33;01 - 00;08;45;02
Greg Musselman
And I'm going at the most narrow minded, bigoted thing I've ever heard. I'll never see her again. You know what? She she was really good looking and I want to see her again. Okay, I'll. I'll. I'll. Well, you know, we'll deal with that later. I mean.
00;08;45;02 - 00;08;48;07
Joshua Hoffert
The technical term for that is called dating evangelism, isn't it?
00;08;48;07 - 00;08;53;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah, our missionary dating. Missionary dating, back dating.
00;08;53;14 - 00;09;19;07
Greg Musselman
And that was fine for me, but not for my kids anyway. So I so we started dating in Edmonton. This is like 1981, December 1981. And so I'm, you know, start dating her and a guy actually that I that I worked with in Red deer and he took the job in medicine hat and then we changed jobs He came back to red dry I went to Medicine Hat its name is calling and so he was also now living in Edmonton.
00;09;19;07 - 00;09;46;29
Greg Musselman
He was doing some work for broadcast news, you know, doing interviews after hockey games. So we would hang out at the Oilers games and sit in the press box and watch the games. So I knew he was a Christian and he was actually the guy that brought the Vineyard Vineyard Christian Fellowship to Edmonton. That's how I would end up getting engaged with with the Vineyard and so Colin and I had been friends and then so he's at the Oilers games, there's Arleen and then the guy that's the anchor man, guy named Doug Mayne at ITB in Edmonton.
00;09;47;01 - 00;10;03;14
Greg Musselman
He was one of those born again. And I was warned, stay away from that guy. He's one of those born again guys, you know, But I his his testimony intrigued me. You know, he and he shared it, you know, publicly many times. You know, he was, you know, his partier and left his wife and was with a younger woman.
00;10;03;21 - 00;10;24;00
Greg Musselman
She became a Christian and then prayed him back into the marriage. And he had accepted Jesus. So I had these three people around me. And so after going to this little Baptist church in West Edmonton, I made the decision to follow Jesus. At that time, I felt there was something that God would have me do. I didn't know what that would be.
00;10;24;02 - 00;10;41;05
Greg Musselman
So I continued on in my broadcasting career, watched the Oilers win some Stanley Cups, and then 1987 felt a call to full time ministry, went to the Bible College, Northwest Bible College in Edmonton, which is now Vanguard College. And it was great experience. And then I got in, you know, let.
00;10;41;08 - 00;10;47;06
Joshua Hoffert
Me just back up just a second. You can you just because we like story right?
00;10;47;08 - 00;10;47;21
Greg Musselman
00;10;47;26 - 00;11;05;27
Joshua Hoffert
And so what you said you felt a call into the full time ministry. What was what was the catalyst there? Was it just a deep sense or conviction? Was there a moment, an encounter, a prophetic word? What what was it that it was like? I've been arrested now and I think I need to go in this direction because it's a pretty big departure from where you were.
00;11;06;00 - 00;11;27;15
Greg Musselman
Yeah. You know, and I think, you know, when over time, of course, your memory or, you know, you try to say when or how did that happen and why did I feel this call? And either be honest, I there was a show called 100 Huntley Street on TV, which interestingly enough, and we may get into that, I end up being one of the hosts later on, but I saw that program because it was airing on our station.
00;11;27;21 - 00;11;45;29
Greg Musselman
And so I'm a new Christian, I'm a sportscaster, and I'm still enjoying that, but I'm thinking that that's probably going to run its course at some point. And now I want to combine my faith in Jesus and in broadcasting. But I was a new Christian, so I felt that I needed to get some Bible training and understand the Scripture.
00;11;46;02 - 00;12;03;03
Greg Musselman
So that's why I went to, you know, the Bible College. And I did never wanted to be a pastor, but the course that I was taking was, was really geared towards pastors. So I ended up becoming a pastor. And so I go, yes, I leave my job at ITV and think, that's it for broadcasting. I'll never do that again.
00;12;03;03 - 00;12;21;23
Greg Musselman
Of course, that, you know, I became very much more involved in media and things even after that. But I ended up going down to La Duke, which is by the Edmonton Airport, people not familiar with that part of the greater Edmonton area. And I was youth pastor down there and it was while I was and that was only one semester in the Bible College.
00;12;21;25 - 00;12;40;05
Greg Musselman
And while I was at that church there was a ministry called Open Doors with Brother and who, if you're familiar with that ministry, they also work with persecuted Christians. An amazing guy used to smuggle the Bibles in his Volkswagen into the communist countries and my brother Andrew passed away not that long ago. But what an amazing man, an amazing ministry.
00;12;40;07 - 00;12;54;24
Greg Musselman
And so I heard about persecuted Christians in 1988 and like Arleen said, my wife said that something entered into you at that moment. Some. And you could never shake it. Not that I was trying to shake it. It just something that became a big part of who I am.
00;12;54;24 - 00;12;55;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;12;55;09 - 00;13;21;25
Greg Musselman
And and I would you know, I pray for the persecuted church. We support open doors ministry and but I continue on in pastoring and and had a real desire to do something media wise with you know, the persecuted church but that door never as they say the door open door to open doors never seemed open. Yeah I wasn't you know obviously God was, you know, telling me in a sense, I believe that I wasn't ready for that yet.
00;13;21;27 - 00;13;40;29
Greg Musselman
And so I ended up, you know, doing some pastoral ministry. I came back to Edmonton. I was just too much, you know, being in Bible school, small children, and then the drive and everything, you know, living outside the city. So I moved back to Edmonton, got and then it turned out I went back to ITV because the guy that replaced me moved to Winnipeg.
00;13;41;01 - 00;14;02;23
Greg Musselman
And so the last two years of Bible school, I continue to do sportscasting fact one of the interesting what later on when I would get involved with TSN when I was living in Winnipeg, they had the Canada Games and Newfoundland and they said, Is there something kind of unique that you've done that nobody else has done? And I thought about I said, Well, as far as I know, I don't know anybody that's done.
00;14;02;23 - 00;14;31;18
Greg Musselman
A sportscaster performed a wedding ceremony on the same day. And it's so anyway, so I was in. So I continued to pastor. I was doing media, so I never got too far away from broadcasting and then into, you know, did some Christian radio in Edmonton and different things in media. Eventually we would move then to Winnipeg and it was 1996 and we went down in some, you guys know David Ruess and The Vineyard.
00;14;31;21 - 00;14;38;03
Greg Musselman
Just an amazing church. We got involved and I was working for a ministry there called It's a New Day Trinity Television, Betty and Willard.
00;14;38;03 - 00;14;40;19
Murray Dueck
T yeah, yeah, yeah.
00;14;40;21 - 00;15;10;11
Greg Musselman
So I was doing a news Christian news segment there and, and there was kind of getting used to using the Internet and, and I was a lot of the stories were on persecuted Christians so I got, you know, more and more interested in that And then while we we also planted a vineyard church while I was in Winnipeg and there was a family that I had interviewed for my Christian news program, they were from South Sudan, and they started coming to our church and we had a small little church in in Winnipeg.
00;15;10;13 - 00;15;37;04
Greg Musselman
And so we started just really praying for South Sudan, heard about all the death, 2 million people that died this war, and Islam and Christianity and oil and all these things are going on. And so we started to pray. And a part of the what we had in the Vineyard DNA list of the Vineyard Winnipeg Church there with David was pastoring is that 10% of everything that came in went to the persecuted church.
00;15;37;06 - 00;15;57;19
Greg Musselman
David, as you know, was a worship leader. And he traveled all over the world and he would encounter persecuted Christians everywhere. And so that's what we had as our model. And so we started praying for South Sudan. And long story short, as a guy from the Voice of the Martyrs, a ministry that I never heard about, guy named Glenn PENNER was coming through Winnipeg, so I invited him to come and speak at our church.
00;15;57;19 - 00;16;15;28
Greg Musselman
He stayed with us and then I shared the burden that I had about South Sudan. Now, by now I had also learned how to run a video camera, how I saw sold like all these pieces that the Lord was adding. Then I go, I don't want to be. I'm not. I'm a in front of the camera. I don't know how to run the camera by its saints kind of thing.
00;16;16;01 - 00;16;35;04
Greg Musselman
And so I started doing that. And then that prepared me for what would happen next. When I was invited by Glenn as he stayed with us about South Sudan, after I'd shared this burden I had for South Sudan, which I didn't really know much about until I met this family and started to study a little bit about it and all the persecution going on.
00;16;35;06 - 00;17;05;04
Greg Musselman
And so in January 2000, I traveled to South Sudan and that's and prior to that, we stopped off in Ethiopia, and it was actually in Ethiopia that we met. Some persecuted Christians would actually come from Orthodox families, but they had become followers of Christ and they were being persecuted. Those were the first interviews I had done. And then we went into South Sudan, heard all those stories and it was, yeah, I mean, at that point I'm still thinking I'm, you know, I'm a reporter, I'm reporting on this.
00;17;05;06 - 00;17;33;16
Greg Musselman
But as I when I got back to Winnipeg and we started putting the stories together and airing them on It's a New Day on the news segment I had then I was invited by churches in Manitoba, you know, a very strong Mennonite community down there. Yeah. Yeah. And invited to churches all around. They're starting to speak and and share some of my stories because I was, you know, went to Egypt and then into Indonesia, then back to South Sudan and Ethiopia and then, you know, 50 countries later, it's been it's been quite a journey.
00;17;33;19 - 00;17;58;17
Greg Musselman
And so and then during some of that time, I was also working with TSN and I was doing like the sidelines on the CFL games and stories, because by when we got there, 96, the Winnipeg Jets were just leaving for the desert of Arizona, the Phenix Coyotes, Arizona Coyotes now. And so I was doing freelance work, so I was doing and then a radio program also in Winnipeg, a job, the station there.
00;17;58;20 - 00;18;21;06
Greg Musselman
And so, yeah. And then in 2004, after the voice of the martyrs hired me, we moved then back to Alberta and then I've been here ever since. And, you know, the persecuted church has become a big part of my life in not only reporting, but, you know, the connections and the friends. And, you know, many people I have met on the field.
00;18;21;09 - 00;18;31;08
Greg Musselman
You know, over time, we become friends because of social media. You can connect better with people. So that's kind of how I went from the sidelines to the front lines. From there.
00;18;31;08 - 00;18;32;08
Joshua Hoffert
You go.
00;18;32;10 - 00;18;34;05
Greg Musselman
To the persecuted church. I might be.
00;18;34;07 - 00;18;39;13
Joshua Hoffert
I might be the title of the episode, too, from the sidelines to the front lines.
00;18;39;14 - 00;18;40;21
Greg Musselman
I Yeah, yeah.
00;18;40;21 - 00;18;45;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, well, you're kind of like you have a thing for media, don't you?
00;18;45;14 - 00;19;04;00
Greg Musselman
Yeah, I, you know, from a you know, when I'm actually that's the name of my book from, from the sidelines of the front lines from the person, you know, from sportscasting to the persecuted church and you know, you know, broadcasting is something that's, you know, I've done it all my life. I mean, I got in for, you know, my own reasons.
00;19;04;00 - 00;19;21;23
Greg Musselman
I want to be a rock and roll disc jockey, as I said in Vancouver, playing the hits, man, you know, and and yet something that I remember even being at a meeting and I think it was in Winnipeg somewhere. And when the people said, You need to lay down your broadcasting, you know, at the foot of Jesus, okay, I'll lay it down.
00;19;21;25 - 00;19;41;13
Greg Musselman
And then I keep laying it down. It's like a boomerang. It keeps coming back at me right? Right. And so I thought, okay, I I'm just going to ride out this thing and see where the Lord takes it. And, you know, it's been a big part of my life. I love broadcasting. I you know, I've enjoyed, you know, whether it be hosting on Huntly Street or podcasting or whatever I've been asked to do.
00;19;41;16 - 00;20;03;11
Greg Musselman
It's been a thrill. But to be able to tell the stories of the persecuted Christians, that to me is the greatest joy that I have, is is giving them a platform to share their stories about what you know, they've gone through the pain, the suffering, but also how God was in it, even in the midst of the most difficult situation.
00;20;03;14 - 00;20;33;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So so we've gotten you so you get to voice of the martyrs. You're working for them now. Now entirely full time, right? Right. But you've been with them for about 20 years and something like that. And you also host a podcast that's kind of right in line with Voice of the Martyrs Closer to the fire, where you interview people who are either on the ground or running ministries that support the persecuted church to highlight the stories.
00;20;33;08 - 00;20;47;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right? So which is we'll talk about that also, but which is awesome. So with what what exactly do does Voice of the Martyrs do like tell us a little bit about Voice of the Martyrs as a ministry?
00;20;47;24 - 00;21;13;23
Greg Musselman
Well, if you're familiar with Richard Worm Brand, Richard and Sabina Worm brand, they were a Romanian pastors. He was imprisoned in Romania for his faith in Jesus because he refused to go along under Stalin and the Communists and then, in fact, he stood out, stood up at a meeting that was being broadcast right across Romania at the time, and pastor after pastor was going around and giving allegiance to Joseph Stalin.
00;21;13;23 - 00;21;44;24
Greg Musselman
Yes, the church. And you know, we can. Yeah. I mean, it was so Sabina worm brand. You know, something along the line is that somebody wiped the shame off the face of Jesus. Wow. And yeah. And so he he was you can imagine being in that situation knowing that if you stand up and say and that's what he said to Sabina, if I stand up and say that that, you know, we I worship only Jesus, you know, you you're going to be my year, I'm going to be in prison, or you become a widow and.
00;21;44;27 - 00;21;46;17
Joshua Hoffert
Basically a Bonhoeffer moment, too.
00;21;46;17 - 00;21;56;18
Greg Musselman
Yeah, exactly. And then she and then her famous quote was, I'd rather be a widow than married to a coward. wow.
00;21;56;21 - 00;21;58;04
Joshua Hoffert
And so he.
00;21;58;09 - 00;22;20;10
Greg Musselman
Woman and he stands up and he's just says, you know, is he is allegiance is only to Jesus. And at that moment, you know literally things were exploded in the in the building. People were, you know, standing up. And some of the pastors, I think, that had felt intimidated and yeah, yeah, we'll go along with, you know, this this Joseph Stalin and this communism and all that.
00;22;20;12 - 00;22;59;23
Greg Musselman
And they also they got courage and then so not long after one pastor, Warren Brown, was arrested and during two stints, he spent about 14 years in prison, was tortured. His famous book, when he was finally able to get out of Romania called Tortured for Christ, one of the most translated books, Christian books ever. And so he eventually comes to the United States, and he sees a real void in the teaching from the scriptures about suffering for righteousness, and also that Christians in the West were not remembering or didn't know about what was going on behind the Iron Curtain in terms of suffering of Christians.
00;22;59;25 - 00;23;20;15
Greg Musselman
So he started a ministry called Jesus to the Communist World, eventually changed it to the voice of the martyrs. And so it's still to, you know, to be a voice, you know, to the martyrs. It's interesting, like the difference between, say, voice of the martyrs and open doors. Open Doors was a little more quieter, you know, you know, brother and would go in with the Bibles and smuggle them in.
00;23;20;15 - 00;23;37;18
Greg Musselman
So they were a little bit lower profile. I was pastor weren't brand not we need to make this we need to proclaim this we need to tell people what's going on and, you know, pressure government leaders and things like that to to make awareness of what's happening to our, you know, Christian brothers and sisters. So there's that awareness part.
00;23;37;20 - 00;23;56;25
Greg Musselman
And then over time, we've done a number of projects. We support Christians in countries like Nigeria, like Pakistan, like India, I mean, all over the world, dozens of countries to help them so they can be faithful in their witness for Christ. And so, you know, those are the basic things. So getting the word out so people will pray.
00;23;56;25 - 00;24;17;28
Greg Musselman
It's the most important thing that we can do, you know, while Yeah, will pray and then we'll get them Bibles and know pray, Holy Spirit gets a hold of our hearts, and then we do what He wants us to do. So whether it's bringing Bibles or food or teaching, I mean, one of the components for the Voice of Martyrs Canada now is the whole area of teaching the theology of persecution and discipleship.
00;24;18;01 - 00;24;47;28
Greg Musselman
And, you know, and originally the idea was and we do this is to go into countries. In fact, one of our colleagues just getting back from West Africa, teaching this theology to, you know, to pastors. I've been in Nigeria, been in Pakistan, to North Korean defectors and taught this course on the theology of persecution. But now we've been also teaching it in Canada because there there is a just a void in our understanding overall within the church of what it means to suffer for righteousness.
00;24;48;01 - 00;25;05;05
Greg Musselman
And that one of the main themes of the Bible is, you know, from Genesis to Revelation is suffering for righteousness. I mean, again, it's like, can you put your glasses on? And all sudden you're looking and you can see clearly and it's a while and people say to me, Well, that's because that's what you're in the voice of the martyrs.
00;25;05;05 - 00;25;22;27
Greg Musselman
You hear all these stories. Yeah, but it's still it's it's one of the main things we see in Scripture. And so we're, you know, wanting to equip, you know, the church in whatever way that we can, you know, to be a voice for the voiceless, but then also to strengthen so I can revelation your strength and that which remains.
00;25;22;27 - 00;25;43;27
Greg Musselman
I know that's also kind of theme verse for Open Doors as well, remembering those in prison as if you were in prison with them. You know, if one part of the body suffers, we all suffer. Paul writing to the Corinthians. So that's kind of what Voice of the Martyrs does and and helping and again, strengthening and bringing awareness of what's happening around the world to our our family and God.
00;25;44;00 - 00;25;45;24
Greg Musselman
00;25;45;26 - 00;25;52;01
Murray Dueck
Wow. Well, here's here's a question just just a personal one before, because I'd like to go over this.
00;25;52;03 - 00;25;52;10
Greg Musselman
Sure.
00;25;52;17 - 00;26;14;23
Murray Dueck
Theology of suffering, because I'd really like to hear that. But, you know, when you think about your radio days, your immediate days being, you know, longing to be a rock and roll disc jockey and and and, you know, still walking in that culture, because I would imagine that culture, that media culture is pretty. Hey there, baby. You know, it's pretty glitzy, showy.
00;26;14;25 - 00;26;46;26
Murray Dueck
And you're in the church. But, you know, your draw is to something exactly the opposite, which is voice of the martyrs. It's as far away from that as you can. And yet you can somehow maintain those two worlds. And and how did did it? Because, you know, when I went to the mission back in the day, you know, way back when 94 came back from youth of the Mission, just met God, had this encounter and I got involved in the church and and eventually, you know, most people that went came back and just went back to their normal lives.
00;26;46;26 - 00;27;05;08
Murray Dueck
It just died out in them. And I could never understand that, you know, I mean, for you, you know, you have a good reason for it to die out. You've got prayer, you got you know, and you're in a church that mostly, you know, doesn't really talk about martyrs, but you you maintain the fire. Why? How did that happen?
00;27;05;10 - 00;27;26;17
Greg Musselman
Well, I think because for me, the there was an emptiness in pursuing my broadcasting career. Yeah. I mean, I there's a part of it I enjoyed it was in its strokes your ego. I mean, at that time, the station I was working at here in Edmonton TV, I mean, we had really good ratings. You know, there were certainly way less channels up there, you know, as there are now.
00;27;26;22 - 00;27;42;12
Greg Musselman
I mean, I hardly ever watch the evening news a little bit because, you know, but I mean, I'm, you know, on this thing, you know, you're following what's going on in the world and I'm a news junkie. Yeah, admit that. But we were a big deal back then, and you get recognized and you know, it stokes the ego, little, you know, ego.
00;27;42;14 - 00;27;59;13
Greg Musselman
And then because I had that profile, I was being invited, you know, the full gospel businessmen and youth groups and, you know, churches would ask me to come and speak and give my testimony, you know, share my story of how I came to Jesus. So right away, I was thrust in a ministry and I was I ready for everything.
00;27;59;13 - 00;28;12;01
Greg Musselman
Like when I became the youth pastor at the church in the Duke? No, just because I was a kid, you know, as public speaking was something I could do. Doesn't mean I knew anything about how to manage teenagers. You know.
00;28;12;08 - 00;28;13;10
Murray Dueck
That. So.
00;28;13;12 - 00;28;15;09
Greg Musselman
Yeah, that was another I'll.
00;28;15;10 - 00;28;22;00
Joshua Hoffert
Take I'll take all the lessons that you can give me. We've got we're a couple of years away, so we need much preparation.
00;28;22;14 - 00;28;45;25
Greg Musselman
yeah. No, I'd say yeah. It's an interesting time. And now I'm a grandfather, so I'm. I'm enjoying that. But no, I think for me, it, it, it all became, you know, what really matters. And at the end of life, I'm going to be before Jesus. I'm have to give an account of what I've done. Now. I'm I used to be when I first became a Christian and follower of Christ, became very legalistic.
00;28;45;28 - 00;29;07;13
Greg Musselman
And and I regret some of those things that I did affect my kids in their view of church and things like that. You know, fortunate. I have embraced grace, but I also embrace holiness and yeah, yeah, it's like the tension between, you know, Jesus came full of grace and truth. Well, how do we proclaim truth in a culture that doesn't, you know, want to hear about truth?
00;29;07;17 - 00;29;27;14
Greg Musselman
And how do we, you know, how, you know, have grace, You know that, you know, for people that we the disagree with us and may mock us, how do we, you know, love them. And but I try to always have this eternal perspective. And I think, you know, as I've interviewed hundreds of persecuted Christians who have lost everything, families have been killed.
00;29;27;17 - 00;29;46;29
Greg Musselman
You know, their wives have been, you know, molested, children, kidnaped. And, you know, you hear these stories and I keep saying, well, you have to have an internal perspective. And so I try to have that, I think. So when you look at maybe having a successful career in broadcasting or whatever, it might be, that in light of eternity, that doesn't matter.
00;29;46;29 - 00;30;06;00
Greg Musselman
Like, okay, I'm a hockey fan. I, you know, I still follow, you know, the local team here, the Edmonton Oilers, it's a diversion for me and I like to talk about it's fine or whatever, but at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter how many Stanley Cups they won. And I probably good for our friends in Calgary because they've only won one and we got five.
00;30;06;00 - 00;30;22;25
Greg Musselman
But anyway, in the big picture, does it matter? Right? So I think that's what's kept me grounded. What matters. And as you get a little bit older, you start to realize, you know what, I'm just passing through here and, you know, we know all the things the Bible talks about. We're just like a vapor. We're just like a blade of grass.
00;30;22;29 - 00;30;43;07
Greg Musselman
Yeah. Before we know what it's going to be gone. I mean, many of the people that I looked up to and admired as Christian leaders, they've passed on. You know, Billy Graham is gone. John Wimmer is gone. You know, and you go down the list of people that influenced you and, you know, they had their time and they're gone.
00;30;43;07 - 00;31;05;26
Greg Musselman
And that's going to be my case. So I think that's what keeps me grounded from and I'm not saying that there's times when you you know, I like to do you know, maybe do more of that or whatever. But I think when it comes down to it, what really matters for eternity. And so now at this stage of life, even with this theology of persecution in discipleship, you know, is encouraging other leaders.
00;31;05;29 - 00;31;29;14
Greg Musselman
You know, when I was recently in Nigeria and I'm in Kaduna State and I'm in a room full of pastors and these guys, they paid the price. Some of the they've had people in their churches have been killed. They've been forced to flee. At times, their families are under threat. And here's me teaching them. And again, I'm going, I don't deserve to be here, but I'm only I'm teaching, what with the Bible teaches about this.
00;31;29;20 - 00;31;51;07
Greg Musselman
And then the fellowship, the encouragement that we have, and then again, to hear the stories keeps me grounded from, you know, wanting to go back and, you know, have a whatever career and broadcast thing, which would just not would not be that something. And again, I say that for those that are in media, because everywhere we are is a mission field right.
00;31;51;11 - 00;32;11;12
Greg Musselman
You know when I left you know, television sportscasting to go to Bible school. Well, if I'm a serious Christian, I got to go to Bible school and I got to become a pastor. I totally think differently now. In fact, some of the best opportunities I've had, you know, in terms of witnessing have been with fellow broadcasters. When I was working at TSN.
00;32;11;14 - 00;32;34;23
Greg Musselman
These guys, you know, come back from somewhere, you know, in October-November and, you know, getting ready for the playoffs in the Canadian Football League and it's cold in Winnipeg and I've got a suntan, a suntan, you know. And I said, Well, I just got back from, you know, Nigeria or Pakistan. What's going on there? Then I start telling him the stories and they just like you could see like kind of short circuiting, like, why do this?
00;32;34;23 - 00;32;58;11
Greg Musselman
You know? So I think it's would you need to answer the question which I ran gone way too long hair on it but is having an internal perspective and I really believe I was put on this planet, as all of us are for a reason. Many followers of Christ don't fulfill the gifts and the talents of what God has given them to do.
00;32;58;13 - 00;33;12;15
Greg Musselman
I want at least fulfill some of what He's called me to do in my life, and I believe that is to be a voice for persecuted believers and then also live my life and share the gospel and witness and do whatever I can to advance the kingdom of God.
00;33;12;18 - 00;33;26;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. I just I just want to thank God that you were a hockey fan and not like a baseball or basketball fan, because those things do have eternal consequences. Hockey does pass away.
00;33;26;21 - 00;33;30;05
Murray Dueck
So,
00;33;30;07 - 00;33;35;09
Joshua Hoffert
That's the American takeaway from this part of the conversation. So.
00;33;35;11 - 00;33;37;08
Greg Musselman
That's right. I forgot. You're a California guy.
00;33;37;09 - 00;33;44;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. You know, the Dodgers and many more pennants that that actually does have eternal consequences.
00;33;44;29 - 00;33;54;12
Murray Dueck
I think God just gave Americans over to a hard heart and a seared conscience. Yeah, they could figure that hockey. It's like. Well, it's. It's divine retribution. That's all it is.
00;33;54;15 - 00;33;54;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Right.
00;33;55;00 - 00;34;07;20
Greg Musselman
It's a good teams. Danny. I remember when Jack can't cook. He was the original owner of the Los Angeles Kings, and they weren't drawing very well. You know, when they back in 67, when they doubled from 6 to 12 games, that's.
00;34;07;20 - 00;34;09;29
Joshua Hoffert
Not a real name. Jack can cook.
00;34;10;02 - 00;34;11;08
Greg Musselman
Jack can't cook.
00;34;11;08 - 00;34;17;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, Jack can't. That's not a real name. You just made that up. I'm sure you can Google it.
00;34;17;08 - 00;34;19;20
Murray Dueck
Google it.
00;34;19;22 - 00;34;38;09
Greg Musselman
Anyway, they weren't drawing very well. I says, Well, there's all these Canadians live in California. It's all the Canadians that move there that don't like hockey. But they wouldn't because we loved, you know, California so much. We sent our best player, Wayne Gretzky, this year, the L.A. Kings, and that was where the NHL really exploded.
00;34;38;11 - 00;34;43;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, there you go. I just like Jeff. Yes, we have. We have love for each other.
00;34;43;22 - 00;34;44;25
Greg Musselman
We do? Absolutely.
00;34;45;02 - 00;34;51;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So what what is what like, like Murray was saying about this theology of suffering.
00;34;51;10 - 00;34;52;07
Greg Musselman
Yeah.
00;34;52;09 - 00;35;14;06
Joshua Hoffert
Suffering. I liked it. You make the clarifications suffering for righteousness, right not just suffering because you did something stupid. And sometimes people think that that's the kind of suffering the Bible is talking about. You, you know, you either sinned or mistreated someone or whatever, and they get angry with you and now you're suffering. Well, no, you're talking about a significant thing here.
00;35;14;06 - 00;35;24;13
Joshua Hoffert
So when why don't you can you in a nutshell, lead us through what a theology of suffering looks like, especially when you're on the ground in a place like Ethiopia or Pakistan.
00;35;24;13 - 00;35;25;11
Murray Dueck
Nigeria.
00;35;25;11 - 00;35;42;22
Joshua Hoffert
Or Nigeria, right? These places where they're confronted with suffering, maybe less Ethiopia, more Nigeria and Pakistan. Yeah. What does that what does it look like? What are your kind of core teaching points or principles that you're helping people to understand there?
00;35;42;24 - 00;36;06;00
Greg Musselman
Well, the first thing we know we need to understand is you go right back into the Book of Genesis and we see where a man fell and, you know, talks about, you know, the heel being injured. Right. And crushing the head so the enemy gets crushed. But there's also this injury. It's it's the prophetic first prophetic, you know, scriptures they're referring to the coming Messiah, Jesus.
00;36;06;02 - 00;36;31;03
Greg Musselman
And so right from the beginning, there was suffering. God uses suffering to restore his world again. It's something I, you know, well, why would he have to do it that way? I don't know all that. But I do know that he uses suffering, even uses the suffering of his children to advance the Kingdom of God. And that's why forgiveness is such an important part when we go through suffering.
00;36;31;05 - 00;36;52;24
Greg Musselman
So one of the first things that, you know, when I'm teaching the course is to remind people when the Bible's talking about persecution and suffering, it's in the context of suffering for righteousness. Now, does God care when somebody gets sick, somebody gets cancer, somebody dies in a family, in a car accident, or the suffering by just living in a world that's full of sin.
00;36;52;27 - 00;37;17;00
Greg Musselman
I mean, people are dying every day because of bad decisions from leaders around the world, because of greed and religion and everything that goes on. But when we're talking about suffering in the biblical context and God, again, he cares. Does he care about us individually? Absolutely. That's that's a given. But when we talk about persecution and suffering for righteousness, it's because the kingdom of God is advancing.
00;37;17;03 - 00;37;34;20
Greg Musselman
So when we talk about even well known Scripture, when Jesus says the gates of hell or the gates of Hades won't prevail against the church, it's not that the church is just hanging on. I think there's that sort of that that, you know, the enemies come and bang, bang, bang on the church and we're just hanging on till Jesus comes back.
00;37;34;20 - 00;38;04;05
Greg Musselman
No, it's. It's actually us advancing, you know, the advancing of the kingdom by force and, you know, some translations, some of that, you know, even violently. So it's the advancing of the kingdom against the gates of hell, and the church will prevail. People come to know Jesus, and that's, you know, it's a part of it. So when we understand right from the beginning that God uses suffering to restore his creation, that's that's the way he he works.
00;38;04;05 - 00;38;34;03
Greg Musselman
And again, we don't understand it. But, I mean, he he was so invested in this, he sent Jesus who would suffer brutally and then and you and you guys love church history and, you know, the New Testament, you know, where the disciples were all kill the apostles. And then the early church. And we see throughout history where there's been so much bloodshed and so many have died, like there's a I just looking I was doing a podcast with a guy named Mark LIPTAK of Stefano's Foundation.
00;38;34;03 - 00;38;59;22
Greg Musselman
So he works in in Plateau State, Nigeria. And there was a massacre just around Christmas time in Plateau State. And the last stats that I had heard or you know, he had gone in, investigated more than 240 Christians murdered just in that space. And in over the last 20 years or so, more than 52,000 Christians have been killed in Nigeria because of their witness for Christ.
00;38;59;25 - 00;39;21;12
Greg Musselman
So suffering is something that's going to continue right to the end. Even we see it from the fifth SEAL and the Book of Revelation, Revelation six, where, you know, it talks about, you know, the, you know, crying out, you know, how long holy and sovereign Lord, until you judge inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood. So they're crying out the martyrs are crying out.
00;39;21;14 - 00;39;40;00
Greg Musselman
And then he puts a white robe on them, tells a wait a little longer until the numbers, those who were killed was completed. And then we believe in the return of Jesus. I mean, people can have their different eschatology. Never. But we do know that Jesus is going to return and the martyrs and those will die for Christ right up until the end.
00;39;40;00 - 00;40;10;06
Greg Musselman
So when you see how suffering for righteousness began in Genesis and then all through the Old Testament, you know, you get through you know, Daniel and Jeremiah and, you know, Ezekiel, the minor prophets, and then things really ramp up. In the New Testament, you see the book of Acts where there's times when there's great fever, thousands are coming to Jesus, and then the wave of persecution which drives the church out of Jerusalem, and then they spread, and then the gospel to the world.
00;40;10;06 - 00;40;37;15
Greg Musselman
So God uses persecution, you know, and we can get into it, too, you know, like this persecution always caused the church to grow. And why does it look like in some places, like, say, North Africa, where you have many of these are well known church fathers, you know, Tertullian and Saint Augustine and so North Africa was Christian. And then what happened in about seventh century when Islam came in and it's been under Islamic rule for centuries.
00;40;37;15 - 00;41;00;09
Greg Musselman
That's yeah. And because I was in I won't say the place I was in, but I interviewed probably a dozen or so leaders from North Africa. So we're talking Libya, Tunisia, Mauritania. You know, these these you know, Algeria. And I think all but one of the Christian leaders that I interviewed were all Muslim background guys and lady. Wow.
00;41;00;13 - 00;41;26;12
Greg Musselman
And they all came to Jesus in various ways, some dreams and visions, some through somebody witnessing to them or finding a a Bible, you know, verse on this on the street or something like that. And so God is God is stirring that. But but there was this decimation, you know, in North Africa, like what happened there, why you know, why it is why, you know, the Christianity basically, you know, just go underground with a few believers there and now it's reemerging.
00;41;26;17 - 00;41;53;19
Greg Musselman
But then you persecute the church in China and it's growing like crazy. What one of our differences there, from what I can gather in talking to people from North Africa that have studied these things, is that the church was weak. It was more of a state church. They didn't have proper Bible translation where in China they're underground because they don't want to go along with the Communists that's we're talking about the house churches or underground church, which really no such thing as an underground church because of technology.
00;41;53;19 - 00;42;20;10
Greg Musselman
They can monitor everything the Chinese government there but they're being persecuted because they are spreading the gospel, they're evangelizing. They are serious about, you know, following Jesus. They're praying. And so you start to draw, okay, here's here's a weak church or state church, and here's a church that's growing because of passion for Jesus and evangelizing. And that's why and people say, well, you know what?
00;42;20;16 - 00;42;26;09
Greg Musselman
We're praying that persecution will come to Canada, then the church will grow. Will it?
00;42;26;11 - 00;42;29;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Right. That's that's an excellent point.
00;42;29;08 - 00;42;50;13
Greg Musselman
So I think that and I mean, I'm just I've had the privilege of of, you know, being in many of these places. And I think it's my curiosity. Yeah. You know, and well, why is this happening and why is the church here like Cain? I know, Josh, you've been in India now. Why 2000 years of history? I mean, is history tells us Thomas Doubting Thomas went to India.
00;42;50;13 - 00;43;11;06
Greg Musselman
The St Thomas Church is there. Right. But why is it such a small percentage after 2000 years? Now, what you're seeing and what I'm seeing in India is now the churches are starting to grow, especially in these rural areas. And then then what's happening? Persecution is coming from an environment in India with the BJP that if you are Indian, you are Hindu.
00;43;11;08 - 00;43;15;25
Greg Musselman
So there's this intense persecution and not only against Christians but Muslims there as well.
00;43;15;29 - 00;43;17;03
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. That's very true.
00;43;17;07 - 00;43;47;08
Greg Musselman
As as these believers are advancing the gospel passionately following Jesus. They're, you know, they're pushing on the gates of hell, and that's causing a reaction. But then that causes the church to grow. So, again, when you look at how God uses persecution to advance his kingdom, absolutely. But persecution in itself is not necessarily going to grow the church unless the church has already, you know, been committed to Jesus.
00;43;47;08 - 00;43;56;20
Greg Musselman
And that's not just a form of Christianity. And I think we're in a very and as you guys know, we're Canadians are almost a Canadian. Are you Canadian citizenship.
00;43;56;22 - 00;43;58;16
Joshua Hoffert
Permanent residence or permanent residence?
00;43;58;16 - 00;43;59;23
Greg Musselman
Okay. Yeah, we.
00;43;59;26 - 00;44;01;14
Joshua Hoffert
Grafted in, but not.
00;44;01;20 - 00;44;02;09
Greg Musselman
Grafted in.
00;44;02;12 - 00;44;03;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;44;03;07 - 00;44;07;03
Murray Dueck
Well, why do you accept the hockey thing he's in? Yeah, he's, you know.
00;44;07;05 - 00;44;09;00
Joshua Hoffert
Hey, I like poutine now, so.
00;44;09;26 - 00;44;10;04
Murray Dueck
a little.
00;44;10;04 - 00;44;10;26
Greg Musselman
Back.
00;44;10;29 - 00;44;12;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;44;12;14 - 00;44;34;07
Greg Musselman
But. But I think when we look at, you know, we look at Canada and what's going on now, there's a whole lot of compromise going on. And I understand it because there's there's fear out there and we want to be loving and we get misled. We misunderstand again what it is to speak the truth, but in love, of course.
00;44;34;10 - 00;44;50;14
Greg Musselman
And if you if you go on any of these extremes, like I'm a man and I'm just a man of truth, and you condemn everything with no grace and no love, what's going to turn people off? That's that becomes religion. If you go the other end, take love. And I don't think we can ever, you know, have outdo the love of God.
00;44;50;22 - 00;45;16;05
Greg Musselman
But when we we distort it and thinking, you know, love is by not telling people the truth. So I think that's where we are in Canada. But the good thing and again, in my travels and I know you guys travel as well, so you see the church and there's some really healthy things going on in the church in Canada, but there's a lot of other things that are going on, including people that I know that have been in church all these years, that there's this compromise happening.
00;45;16;08 - 00;45;23;00
Greg Musselman
And so the, you know, nations where there's persecution, they're not exempt from having some of those issues as well.
00;45;23;03 - 00;45;25;06
Murray Dueck
Well, well, go ahead.
00;45;25;09 - 00;45;59;03
Joshua Hoffert
Let me ask this question and you can opt out if you want on answering this one. If you opt out, maybe I'll just edit it out. But just given everything that you said, because one of one of Mary and I did a long series on the podcast on ancient prophetic ministry, ancient early church practices and prophetic ministry, and then looking at the contemporary state of prophetic ministry and how contemporary prophetic ministry lines up with the early church prophetic ministry, similarities and differences and what, what.
00;45;59;03 - 00;46;36;16
Joshua Hoffert
And we put out a list of seven things that we think would call prophetic ministry back in North America to a healthy expression. And and so so given that context, I want to ask this question. There's some some in not everybody in prophetic ministry, some really great prophetic ministries out there but there's this there is this bent towards prophesying eventual political leaders, political movements, national kind of a nationalistic rise into, you know, the kingdom is going to come in our nation and all this kind of stuff.
00;46;36;16 - 00;47;03;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And and when you're saying when you're saying, you know, there may be some similarities between what happened in North Africa and a weak church and what's happening in Canada and in America, decline in church attendance. I in our kind of, you know, our our prep document for interviewing Greg, I threw out some Barna research numbers, the decline of Christianity and specifically in America.
00;47;03;04 - 00;47;38;15
Joshua Hoffert
But, you know, in Canada, it's even further along than that. And so is is you know, it seems to me, given what you're saying, that pointing prophecies towards the political landscape versus pointing prophecies towards the church and maturing the church, you know, that seems to there seems to be an congruency there. And and I'm wondering if in one if you can comment on that, if you're comfortable with that and then to looking at, you know, you were like you were said you were just in North Africa interviewing these people.
00;47;38;23 - 00;48;01;07
Joshua Hoffert
You've been to 50 countries and you've been working with the persecuted church. Do you see some of the similar trends when it is prophetic ministries alive everywhere, you know, to certain degrees or in in certain countries, But do you see the same kind of practice is in persecuted countries where a played a significant part of prophetic ministry is prophesying eventual leaders and the change in government and all that?
00;48;01;09 - 00;48;06;08
Joshua Hoffert
Or is there more of a focus on the building up at the local church?
00;48;06;10 - 00;48;21;24
Greg Musselman
Yeah, I think you have a mixture in all that, you know. I know is it, you know, and I follow I find it very interesting. Yeah. Just causes despair sometimes to right when you see what's going on. And you know, for.
00;48;21;24 - 00;48;34;02
Joshua Hoffert
The record by the way, before you say that, not that we would ever say God can't speak to politics. We're not saying that. It's just no. Observing a pretty significant trend that this seems to be like 90 of prophetic words or something like that. That's all.
00;48;34;07 - 00;48;37;17
Murray Dueck
Go back and see previous seven episodes to get a clear insight.
00;48;37;20 - 00;48;58;03
Greg Musselman
Yeah, no, I'll definitely look back on that because, you know, I have concerns, you know, in Canada, but you know America as well because we do put a lot of stock in to, you know, if we get the right political leaders in, it's going to change. And certainly the Bible talks about, you know, when you've got godly leaders, it's going to affect in a positive way.
00;48;58;05 - 00;49;24;28
Greg Musselman
I mean, you see the history of Israel when you've got an evil leader, it causes massive problems. Very true. But to put all our stock into leaders and in politics, I think we missed the point again. Do we need to vote yes? Do we need godly politicians? Absolutely. Are people call to that? Yes. I mean, I don't see I don't think my skin is tough enough to be in politics.
00;49;25;00 - 00;49;44;13
Greg Musselman
I mean, it's tough. I you know, I admire those that they can go in there and you know, and represent Jesus. And I know Christian politicians that are trying to in Canada that are trying their very best, you know, to do and operate in a godly way. It's not easy. That's a very difficult environment, like being an actor, Christian actor in Hollywood.
00;49;44;20 - 00;50;10;06
Greg Musselman
You know, they're you're in a situation where it's very, very contrary to many of what things that you believe. But I think we have to be careful, you know, when the when there's too much emphasis on earthly governments, you know, now God allows these things. And no matter if I was living in North Korea, how you allowed Kim Jong un and, you know, the Kim dynasty that hates Christians and imprisons and kills them, right?
00;50;10;09 - 00;50;38;26
Greg Musselman
I mean, I don't I mean, we wrestle with some of these things about obeying the government and praying for them. Yeah. And I find myself even praying more for our prime minister in Canada politically. Yeah, I there's a lot of things I disagree with. I'll pray for them. I don't hold the utmost hope for the government I, I hold to the Kingdom of God and the rule and reign of Jesus and, and bringing light in that.
00;50;38;28 - 00;51;02;26
Greg Musselman
And I think and, you know, when you talk about prophecy, you know, and it's you know, I've been around, you know, the charismatic, you know, movements and, you know, prophetic and all that for many, many years. And as is my wife. And we found ourselves even, you know, talking about this not long ago, is that over time, you kind of pull away from some of these things because of the excesses you see.
00;51;02;29 - 00;51;21;18
Greg Musselman
And while this was prophesied and that didn't come about or, you know, these guys are flaky and you know, I you know, people are, you know, having ministries is built on that. And it seems that there's some mixed, you know, agendas there. But I still hold to this is what the Bible says in the church that I go to here in Alberta.
00;51;21;21 - 00;51;47;08
Greg Musselman
It's a new church. And that and the pastor, young guy, does not have background in that. Now, there's a bunch of people like myself that have come along into the church that do have backgrounds in that. So, you know, prophetic ministry is absolutely important, but we have to make sure that we're not putting all our stock in government are, yes, we need to vote, we need to pray and all those kinds of things.
00;51;47;15 - 00;52;09;12
Greg Musselman
But to me, it it it pales in comparison to what really matters. And that's the advancing of God's kingdom. Right. And then I think that's hurt the church in America particularly, and maybe in Canada as well, where there's been too much emphasis, you know, on a particular person or political party where that the focus then is on that.
00;52;09;12 - 00;52;31;01
Greg Musselman
And then there's all this frustration when you don't get your person in there or you see ungodly leaders and you're frustrated. You know, our you know, we're supposed to have our attention on Jesus and advancing the kingdom of God, and he needs people to have humble spirits to deliver in the fear of God, these prophetic words that that need to be spoken.
00;52;31;01 - 00;52;51;07
Greg Musselman
And I believe it. I ever have a good friend of mine. His name is her most Sharia, and he has a ministry called Iran A Life that I'm going to be interviewing him for an upcoming podcast. And he's a muslim. He came from Iran. And interestingly enough, he has his Ph.D. in artificial intelligence. And and his story was, yeah, I know.
00;52;51;15 - 00;52;52;24
Greg Musselman
And this is like 1970.
00;52;52;24 - 00;53;00;08
Murray Dueck
People say about me or.
00;53;00;10 - 00;53;13;28
Greg Musselman
Anyway, he he was in in Iran during the 1979 revolution. Remember that the ayatollah and all the things are going on there. The Shah was deposed and he was one of those guys on the streets of Tehran. Death to America, spitting on the American flag.
00;53;13;28 - 00;53;14;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00;53;14;17 - 00;53;31;06
Greg Musselman
Except I want to go to one of their schools. So answer yes, of course. The University of Southern California, USC, you know, a great school and and gets his Ph.D. But during that time, his marriage was kind of collapsing and he was running into all sorts of problems and depressed and that and so I thought, well, I'm not serious enough Muslim.
00;53;31;06 - 00;53;48;25
Greg Musselman
I need to I need to study the Koran and. He just found it gave him no relief. He said, well, I must give the Bible a try. I'm going to read the New Testament. Well, he didn't get past Matthew chapter five. He's got into the Sermon on the Mount right. And, you know, love your enemies. Like long story short, her mother became a follower of Christ.
00;53;48;25 - 00;54;12;17
Greg Musselman
He has this ministry now called Iran Alive. And Joel Rosenberg, you know him, he calls her most the Billy Graham of Iran. And and what's interesting about him. So his testimony is is amazing. I did an interview them Huntly Street, and it's the most viewed interview I've ever had. It's like almost 700,000 views. And it's had, you know, multiple shares because he shares a story.
00;54;12;19 - 00;54;42;03
Greg Musselman
How he came to Jesus, which is powerful. But then he talks about a prophecy in the book of Jeremiah refer to the place is called Elohim, which is modern day Iran. And one of the things that her mom says, because it says that in Jeremiah is that God is going to, you know, set up worship in Islam and that and he and are in her most believes that Iran will become a Christian nation has the fastest growing church percentage wise in the world really.
00;54;42;04 - 00;54;58;10
Greg Musselman
The church is underground. It's hostile towards Christianity, you know, keep you know and it's it's not it's part of it is Islam and it's secular. And and as we know, Iran is like they're the biggest sponsor of terror in the world. I mean, what's going on in Gaza with Hamas and Hezbollah and.
00;54;58;17 - 00;54;59;12
Murray Dueck
And Yemen and the.
00;54;59;12 - 00;55;29;03
Greg Musselman
Moment on and in Yemen with the Houthis. And I mean, you see all these things and like Iran is involved in all this chaos, and yet people are turning to Jesus in Iran because they have given up on this supposed utopia that was supposed to be brought in back in 1979. And so, you know, his belief is, yeah, this is going to be a Christian nation and God is going to set up and he sets up shop everywhere, but there's going to be something visible there.
00;55;29;05 - 00;55;49;23
Greg Musselman
And so you know, you pray, of course, you know, for the leaders there, even if you see them as evil and causing all sorts of problems, God's plans and purposes will come about. That's not to say we just sit back and do nothing here. But but the Lord is working and and, you know, and I you know, as a Canadian, I believe that God has a special place for this land.
00;55;49;26 - 00;56;07;16
Greg Musselman
The nations are here. I mean, I heard recently that there's more people groups in Canada right now. And Toronto would be, you know, everybody's in Toronto, every nation is there. So there's something significant. And of course, we're having all this struggle now with immigration, what's going on. But the people are here. Canada's to be a healing to the nations.
00;56;07;16 - 00;56;25;29
Greg Musselman
I've heard that for many years. I believe I said, well, how is that going to work? You know, 20 years ago now, you see all these people coming to Canada. And, you know, when you talk about even this Barna research in America, which could be similar to Canada and the decline of the church, well, we're the church is growing as amongst the ethnic groups.
00;56;26;01 - 00;56;43;29
Greg Musselman
I heard about a church in downtown Edmonton, 96 streets called Church Street. There's all you know, there's a few square blocks and there's all these churches, and it's called Rhema Chapel. It's a pastor's Nigerian. And so when I went there a couple of weeks ago, I was the only white guy in the place. But it's it's it's growing like crazy.
00;56;44;03 - 00;57;13;19
Greg Musselman
And God is this they're planting churches. And I know another friend of mine, he's also from Nigeria. It's the All Nations full Gospel church and it's out of Toronto. But they're planting these guys are church planting. They're they're aggressively going and God has brought them here. And so when I see everything that's going on, you know, in our nation and the world and, you know, when it comes to politics and everything that's happening and of course, a big election coming up in the United States, things in Canada, you know, all these things going on.
00;57;13;21 - 00;57;36;05
Greg Musselman
But yet there's that foundation that we have in God's kingdom that cannot be shaken. But we still need to also there needs to be the prophecy we need to encourage. I mean, prophecy is to encourage the saints. So, hey, we're God's in control. We're not going to give up. And I see so many good things happening. And I also see some distressing things happening when it comes to Canada and even the nations where I drop.