Join us for Part 2 of the Voices from the Desert interview with Greg Musselman from Voice of the Martyrs. In this episode Murray, Greg, and Josh talk about the need for prophetic reform, when Christianity becomes too political, the gifts of the Spirit, and much more!
For more about Greg and Voice of the Martyrs, visit: https://www.vomcanada.com/
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
Join us for Part 2 of the Voices from the Desert interview with Greg Musselman from Voice of the Martyrs. In this episode Murray, Greg, and Josh talk about the need for prophetic reform, when Christianity becomes too political, the gifts of the Spirit, and much more!
For more about Greg and Voice of the Martyrs, visit: https://www.vomcanada.com/
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
00;00;20;23 - 00;00;41;15
Joshua Hoffert
For every political, national prophetic word someone gives, they should at least feed ten people on the street. Then if they did that, then I would say, okay, now we'll start to listen to you. That's I think that's my you know.
00;00;41;17 - 00;00;42;28
Murray Dueck
That should have been your age point.
00;00;43;05 - 00;00;45;25
Joshua Hoffert
That should be the point of that.
00;00;45;28 - 00;01;17;04
Murray Dueck
Look, you know, try to keep this grounded. I mean, I had a good question around how to, like, have you make you well, you know, sort of this John art story. John Hurt It was I heard him speak at an ease, he said because they had some work or something going on in Iran. And I guesses tribal guys up in the mountains.
00;01;17;04 - 00;01;35;15
Murray Dueck
All their leaders had this dream of somebody bringing these books, you know, the Bible, right? And they're like and they all, you know, these leaders that talk to each other, You had the same dream. You had the same dream. So John was connected to somebody who was smuggling Bibles to Iran. So they were taking him up through the mountains, you know, to get away from everybody in the dark.
00;01;35;17 - 00;01;54;10
Murray Dueck
And their van breaks down in the middle of the night in this village. And they see all these lights coming and they're surrounded like, no, what's going to happen? And they roll down the windows. And the people go, Did you bring the books? And here they are. Right. So you you had mentioned it with these North African guys and some of them had come to the Lord through dream and vision.
00;01;54;12 - 00;02;08;23
Murray Dueck
So is that common with these guys to have experiences like that and find Jesus? Because, I mean, that means prophetically speaking, God is working, planting already ahead of people. He's already doing it. Like what? What's the experience with that?
00;02;08;25 - 00;02;38;12
Greg Musselman
Well, it seems to be predominantly in the Muslim world. You know, people coming to him. Now, it also happens in the Hindu world and the Buddhist world and amongst atheists. I mean, God uses whatever, but it just seems to be something that's really happened in the in the Muslim world. And I had heard in the last 20 or 30 years and the number of mission organizations that have studied this, that more Muslims have come to Jesus in this last few decades than the previous, you know, 1400 whatever years of Islam.
00;02;38;14 - 00;02;59;10
Greg Musselman
So there's something happening. And as you know, that Muslims are not allowed to question the religion. You if you convert and many countries have these, you know, in Pakistan and and even if it's in the constitution that, you know, there's freedom of religion in reality doesn't work out that way. And so there's all these blasphemy cases that go on in countries like Pakistan.
00;02;59;12 - 00;03;22;25
Greg Musselman
And but then God is overrides that. I mean, we heard even and you guys may have even seen this, that there was a report coming out and I saw it Christian Broadcasting Network, CBN. And they're, you know, pretty thorough in the way that they investigate these things is that in one night in Gaza during this terrible war thing is going on, there is that 200 Muslims had a vision of Jesus in a dream.
00;03;22;27 - 00;03;46;16
Greg Musselman
And and it was somebody had come to the church, as I understand the story, and had lost a number of loved ones and was distraught and he'd come to the Lord and and this was happening. So this is going on all around the world. And again, we see the Book of Acts being lived out in the supernatural power of God, but then also on the suffering and the death of his children.
00;03;46;18 - 00;04;13;07
Greg Musselman
And there's this this tension and and that's just going on. But and I asked at this particular conference I was at in Europe and where they brought all these, you know, North African and Middle Eastern Christian leaders. And interestingly enough, many of them had come from Canada. But I was I think maybe the only white probably not, you know, born in Canada, many people that come from, you know, Egypt and Lebanon and different countries living in Canada now.
00;04;13;10 - 00;04;31;09
Greg Musselman
And and I asked I said, what in what you've seen, again, this is not scientific, but, you know, as you talk to, you know, Muslims that have come to Christ because it's I mean, there's hundreds of them in this place at this conference. And you say, well, how how did they come to the Lord? Was it through dreams and visions only?
00;04;31;09 - 00;04;53;03
Greg Musselman
No. And it was like about one of them told me about 30%. And that's how And then it's shockingly high. That's high. And then there's there's the the radio broadcast and television, and then there's, you know, getting the Bibles in on, you know, these little cards. You know, somebody again, coming across a track, you know, that has Bible verses on it or somebody gives them a Bible.
00;04;53;10 - 00;05;11;18
Greg Musselman
I mean, these things are all happening in in a way that's unprecedented. And I and I've heard it said a number of times, and I believe this to be true, that we are living in the most dangerous time in history, but also the most exciting time in history to be a follower of Jesus and is there a falling away?
00;05;11;25 - 00;05;28;16
Greg Musselman
Yes. And many people are falling away from the Lord, you and I. And, you know, it's three We know people that have quit going to church. Okay. I get that, you know, COVID, you know, I can I'm not going to come to church. I don't know if even believe anymore. And, you know, this is happening. Many of you know our kids.
00;05;28;16 - 00;05;50;18
Greg Musselman
You know, I don't know if I believe in this thing called the organization of the church, and I'm not putting up with that. So there's all these things are going on. And yet while that's taking place, the Holy Spirit's being poured out and my heart in this is that the Lord will get a hold of our, you know, our hearts, but also the next generation, because they need to see a movement of of God.
00;05;50;20 - 00;06;11;09
Greg Musselman
They need to see the power of the Holy Spirit, the organization of the church, that many churches look similar. And I'm not saying it's wrong, you know, with contemporary worship in that, but it is there is this engagement with the Holy Spirit and to see what God is really doing. And and that's something that we need to be seeing in our world today.
00;06;11;11 - 00;06;46;16
Joshua Hoffert
You know, I was I was at a church gathering overseas in a persecuted country. And the the gathering started off with worship. And the worship was a cappella. Yeah. Because there's these gathering people that come from all over the nation that we're in. And none of them had like, a sound system, worship, stage, guitar, even guitar or anything that we would be so accustomed to here, right?
00;06;47;02 - 00;07;06;27
Joshua Hoffert
And so when they started singing and they were singing in their native language, so I couldn't quite understand what they were saying, but I could get what they were, what they were singing. And they were singing songs about Zacchaeus coming down from the tree. They were singing songs about Jonah and the belly of the whale, right?
00;07;06;28 - 00;07;28;01
Joshua Hoffert
These are songs that we would probably have sung in Sunday school, and this is what constituted their worship service rhyme. And it was so beautiful. And the power of the Holy Spirit was so present and it was like it was eye opening to me, right? If there's no like flashy lights or and I love that, right? I'm not I'm not like complaining about that right now.
00;07;28;08 - 00;07;53;12
Joshua Hoffert
I love a really good worship service. I'm you know, I'm definitely put a YouTube video on whatever. Right. It's awesome. The the availability we have there. But I was like the simplicity of a heart dedicated singing a song about Zacchaeus in a native land. They were doing all the hand motions and everything right to get all pastors and leaders, all pastors.
00;07;53;12 - 00;08;09;25
Joshua Hoffert
And we are doing this right now. This isn't like that. You know, it's not even laypeople or anything for that, but all pastors and leaders doing it, doing all the hand motions and joyfully singing and dancing around, I was like, this is another level. This is totally different. And this is the evidence of the Holy Spirit working in their midst.
00;08;09;25 - 00;08;12;24
Joshua Hoffert
I loved that, right. The simplicity of it, too.
00;08;12;27 - 00;08;32;23
Greg Musselman
Was the gospel in, you know, we complicated. And again, I, I like, you know, the power points and, you know, worship. I, you know, go to church where we've got, you know, some excellent musicians and right, right. And it's great. And they're you know, they're learning and and, you know, trying to understand the in practicing the presence of God and all these things.
00;08;32;26 - 00;08;43;25
Greg Musselman
But I yeah, I mean, I'm like you, Joshua, been in places where no sound system you know, if that happens in our church in Canada you think, boy, like I get to my PowerPoint.
00;08;44;02 - 00;08;46;11
Joshua Hoffert
You might as well just go, yeah, yeah.
00;08;46;14 - 00;09;12;01
Greg Musselman
Yeah, go home. I can't do anything here. I'm like, That's Paul. Yeah. Jesus. He didn't need it because he was so powerful and, you know, whatever. When he spoke. And so we just. Yeah, the Jesus Paul way. But I remember being in a church in Ethiopia, and we had gone into this area where they, you know, Christians had been persecuted and, and I was sharing a little bit and I had my video camera with me and I was, you know, getting some, you know, video them worshiping and and so they're singing.
00;09;12;01 - 00;09;33;02
Greg Musselman
And then all of a sudden it's, you know, it's ten very simple building dirt floor and all sudden these rocks start hitting. You can hear it hitting the side of this tin building and thinking. And I'm immediately going, I cover the persecuted church. I don't plan on being one of them. Right. Well, you know, I'll just turn the camera on myself and here's me being persecuted.
00;09;33;02 - 00;09;57;21
Greg Musselman
Yeah, but when that happened, they just started to sing louder and joyfully, you know? And I'm thinking this is way more impacting. And again, not to diminish what we have in Canada, but it was just it was a deeper level. It's like the underground church when you're in a place where if you're caught, you could be thrown in jail.
00;09;57;23 - 00;10;22;20
Greg Musselman
You know, even as a foreigner, they may kill you or whatever. Who knows what might happen to you or kidnap or whatever. And but you're meeting there and you're with people that they want to be there now. Because, you know, a church ago in Canada, if they don't have good coffee, well, I'll try another church, you know, or they I know they're not singing enough for the whatever the popular, you know, worship songs or Bethel or whatever is being sung.
00;10;22;22 - 00;10;24;01
Joshua Hoffert
Or they're singing too many Bethel.
00;10;24;01 - 00;10;33;20
Greg Musselman
Songs or they're singing too many. Yeah. I mean, we have new ones every week now, and I don't want to be one of those. I sing songs and I, you know, live in your nineties. I'm like, Those are the song.
00;10;33;22 - 00;10;36;07
Murray Dueck
Of the anointing. Yeah, right.
00;10;36;09 - 00;10;36;28
Greg Musselman
But, but.
00;10;37;04 - 00;10;39;05
Joshua Hoffert
That's about YouTube's for.
00;10;39;07 - 00;10;40;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;10;40;08 - 00;11;00;15
Greg Musselman
But it's within the simplicity of the gospel. Yeah. And, and I'm not saying that we go underground in Canada, I mean if that happened it would happen. Right. But you know, and I've, we've tried the whole church thing and some have had success at it. But you know, you also have to appreciate where your culture's at. And, you know, so there's there's this wrestle of trying to figure out how what's the best way.
00;11;00;15 - 00;11;15;02
Greg Musselman
And I mean, we Arleen and I, we did the year in a Bible, you know, and one of those things and so we were always on the same page and we talk about stuff and and over the last few years I've also done with Nicky Gumbel, who started at the Alpha, and he has a, you know, a daily program.
00;11;15;02 - 00;11;33;23
Greg Musselman
And so I read through that and commentary and, you know, every time I, you know, read it, then I see something, you know, some fallen leader or some abusive pastor or some bizarre thing going on in Nigeria or, you know, with the word or the prosperity gospel message in Nigeria. And you think thinking, how can this be going on in south Nigeria?
00;11;33;28 - 00;11;51;16
Greg Musselman
Yeah, and the North Christians are being killed and these guys are it's all about prosperity and all that kind of thing. And does God prosper? Absolutely. But not in, you know, material things all the time. We focus, we get I know if, you know, a guy named Gordon C was a Pentecostal theologian. And I remember he spoke in our Bible college.
00;11;51;16 - 00;12;11;22
Greg Musselman
And I mean, you hear a lot of things, a lot of sermons, a lot of all that. But one thing that really stood out was when you take any doctrine of the Bible and extend it more than it was intended, it becomes false teaching. So if you take if you take the prosperity, you know, part of it, and then you make that the center of it, well, that's not the gospel anymore.
00;12;11;26 - 00;12;34;25
Greg Musselman
Or if you were to take it, if you don't suffer and if you're not beaten up for Jesus, then you're not really serving him. So you're taking these extremes. And again, we're human, you know, And whether it's a prophetic ministry or healing or anything, you know, we get excited about, we make that the only thing. And if we're listening to the Holy Spirit, he will guide us back, you know, get us out of the ditch and back into the center of the road.
00;12;34;27 - 00;13;10;18
Greg Musselman
You know, I think probably now I'm you know, I'm wanting to engage more in the prophetic ministry again. You know, again, you see excesses and you see problems in it. But that doesn't mean you throw the whole thing out, you know, because, you know, I when I was speaking at the Christian Ministers Association and I and my friend Jan Stephan, you know him from actually Kamloops Arie Vineyard pastor, and he he brought it up to my attention because I you know, a lot of things you might say kind of say like, he said that how that come out I was I'm not arguing anymore about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, whether they're for
00;13;10;18 - 00;13;29;28
Greg Musselman
today. They are for today. And if you want to do ministry with your hands tied behind your back, go for it. I'm not smart enough and I'm not gifted enough. That's God's kingdom without, you know, the gifts of the spirit and the power of the Holy Spirit. So I think we have to just keep getting back to the simplicity of the gospel God loves.
00;13;29;28 - 00;13;51;29
Greg Musselman
You know, he sent his son Jesus. That's why he came, That's why he died. And whether we live a long life or were killed, like many of our brothers and sisters in places like Nigeria, that we continue to move forward. And if you start to focus on, you know, just the suffering of our brothers and sisters and yes, we need to be praying, but that will cause despair and wanting to give up.
00;13;52;02 - 00;14;08;27
Greg Musselman
And so we don't want to give up. We want to keep advancing the kingdom. And in order to do that, we need to stay close to him. We need to stay close to his word. And when it comes to, you know, prophetic and the gifts, the spirit, the Bible gives us the parameters on how we are to, you know, to live out our faith in Jesus.
00;14;08;27 - 00;14;26;21
Greg Musselman
I haven't figured it out yet. Probably won't until I die. But I know that he's with us and he's got more invested in the kingdom than we do. And even when we mess up, he and we're humble about it and we repent and get back on track. He can then take us and use us and even takes the bad stuff and turns it around for good.
00;14;26;23 - 00;14;29;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right. That's awesome. Great. Well, what do.
00;14;29;08 - 00;14;31;13
Murray Dueck
You have time for? One more question. Are we.
00;14;31;15 - 00;14;33;06
Greg Musselman
Sure? Yeah. I got a few more minutes here.
00;14;33;07 - 00;14;51;24
Murray Dueck
Okay. Okay. Well, you know, there's. There's an old legend out of a legend. Story of a could have been an emperor. And he said, I think it's time to persecute the church again. And he says to one of his generals, What do you think about that? And the general goes, The church is an anvil that has worn out many hammers.
00;14;51;27 - 00;15;15;01
Murray Dueck
Yes. And the persecution was called off. You know, true story. I don't know who it was about, but I just with that, I mean, we look look at the Western church and deconstruction ism, you know, all the stuff that's going on. Right. And then you look, you look at the church that you just talked about. These guys were having, you know, Muslims or whoever they are in their particular persecuted country, smashing rocks at the side of their building.
00;15;15;08 - 00;15;41;07
Murray Dueck
They're singing louder like and here under persecution, the church is growing. And in the western church it's coming down. Like, what is the belief system different about these people, about Jesus and community and the church, that that is so different than what's happening here? Like there, there must be some very different views because they're paying the price for something while here people are walking away like, how do they read their Bible different than us?
00;15;41;09 - 00;16;17;21
Greg Musselman
Like, yeah, I think that's a yeah, and it's how we read the Bible. And one of the dangers is, you know, in following particular street terms or theologies, you know, if it's the prosperity gospel and that's what you're being fed constantly, and then you're reading scriptures that will back that up. And then and when you come across and again, that's one of the beauties of of of reading, you know, through the Bible is you are coming across, you know, things that are that doesn't really fit into what my pastor teaches you.
00;16;17;21 - 00;16;40;05
Greg Musselman
Either my pastor's wrong or what? Or yeah, I and you know, it's what I appreciate even about, you know, going with, with Nicki Gumbel because he's had an international, you know, influence and, you know, people want to come to his church. So he's interviewed a lot of persecuted believers at his church, and he talks a lot about that, you know, when it comes to those passages about persecution.
00;16;40;07 - 00;16;59;19
Greg Musselman
Now, if you're listening to that or you're reading the scriptures or you're, you know, falling what's going on, like, say, through Voice of the Martyrs, Open Doors or Ministries and work with persecuted church, you have to be blind to that, ignore that and say, well, that doesn't that doesn't apply to me. You know where Paul's writing to Timothy?
00;16;59;22 - 00;17;29;21
Greg Musselman
If you desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus, you will be persecuted unless you live in Canada or America or Australia or whatever country, right? It doesn't say that. So if you're if you're striving to live a God life, Paul is telling Timothy, warning him that there's going to be persecution when you fall after Jesus. The challenge that many Christians are having in Canada, and I, of course have many friends that are believers here is how do we navigate what's going on?
00;17;29;28 - 00;17;52;04
Greg Musselman
the the governments, they got all these things and it's against the church. And I mean, it's it's so skewed this. Well, why should we be surprised, Right? There's an enemy that's trying to bring deception. And the sad part is that many are falling away. There's a lot of compromise. That's why when and not everybody at every church wants to hear what I'm talking about or telling these stories.
00;17;52;04 - 00;18;08;14
Greg Musselman
And I get it. I think they're wrong. I mean, we need to hear about these things because if we if we believe and I know, Josh, as you've traveled and you have friends in India now, you consider them friends. And when you hear something happening to them, it breaks your.
00;18;08;14 - 00;18;10;00
Joshua Hoffert
Heart. Yeah. You know.
00;18;10;02 - 00;18;27;11
Greg Musselman
Like there was a girl I interviewed, we called her Leena. And if you're listening, you can go to the Voice of the Martyrs website or Huntley Street or whatever. But Lina was a girl that I had met. She was about 14 at the time, and it was in in Plateau State, so central part of Nigeria. She was from the north.
00;18;27;14 - 00;18;48;18
Greg Musselman
She'd been married off at 12 years old, illiterate and, you know, and just guy was like three or four times older than her. She didn't like it. Anyway, she eventually left and she got out of that relationship by leaving and and then befriending some Christians. She started to hear about the gospel and became curious. And she wasn't ready to make a decision.
00;18;48;18 - 00;19;08;13
Greg Musselman
She just want to learn more. So she starts going to the church, hears the gospel message, and and her father, who was an imam, you know, Islam, later found out that she'd been at the church. He beat her, locked her in a room, and he had, I think, multiple wives, multiple children. And apparently she was the favorite. But he was so angry with her and locked her in the room.
00;19;08;16 - 00;19;26;25
Greg Musselman
And again, she didn't even made a decision to follow Jesus. Eventually she does get out of there and escapes. So I meet her and she's at a discipleship school. And so I had a chance to interview her. She was just a really bright girl and she had made a decision to follow Jesus, and now she wanted to learn more.
00;19;26;27 - 00;19;46;01
Greg Musselman
And in her heart was to become a pastor, go back into her community and lead them to Jesus. Now, of course, we know there's there's you know, there's not easy thing to do. So I interviewed her. We called her Lena on the video. I had to hide her face. And then a few months later, we heard that the marriage to this older man was annulled and we were rejoicing in that.
00;19;46;03 - 00;20;07;03
Greg Musselman
And then not long after that, we heard that she had been raped and had conceived a child and then went to, you know, back to our brother, actually, you know, said, hey, I want to meet with you, and had his friend there lock the door. And he was she was raped and became pregnant. Want to have an abortion?
00;20;07;05 - 00;20;28;27
Greg Musselman
Our friends at Christian Faith Ministries in Joss, they said, no, don't do that. You know, have the baby. And then maybe he'd give it up or maybe a raise it or whatever, because now she's like 16 or 17 years old. And so she's just in a real difficult time. Anyway. So she has she goes through and has the child and is raising the child.
00;20;29;03 - 00;20;47;00
Greg Musselman
So I had a chance to meet her and and to see the child. The child. I always get emotional about things they call the child Kona, which means love. Wow. And this little four year old, because I saw I spent a lot of time there on my last trip and she'd walk up to me and hold my finger.
00;20;47;00 - 00;21;04;23
Greg Musselman
And I walked in and got, you know, here's Lena's story and just a wonderful lady. And and now she's super smart and she wants to be a lawyer and wants to help out those that are offering as well. And so little counter was kind of like my adopted grandchild there.
00;21;04;23 - 00;21;05;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah.
00;21;05;09 - 00;21;24;06
Greg Musselman
And of course, I want to bring them back here. And I actually had my four year old grandchild and we got a photo and anyway, I sent a little message to to Hannah, my granddaughter here, and but I see how God has taken something so negative. And there's like over 200 girls, women, young women, and it's called Mary's house.
00;21;24;06 - 00;21;47;21
Greg Musselman
And we did a project with Huntley Street. It's for traumatized girls. And all of them had these stories, just horrible abuse. And all these children, many of them the product of rape. And yet you know what? I'm when I you know, I saw I'm going to make sure I don't use her name. Lena's real mare, the name that we used is when I saw her and I saw a little cow and I thought, you know, it's like Joseph story, what was meant for evil.
00;21;47;24 - 00;21;56;29
Greg Musselman
God is turned to good, right? And so we need to hear those stories. We need to hear how God is working in the midst of. He Got time for one more quick story.
00;21;57;04 - 00;21;58;13
Murray Dueck
I would love to hear some story.
00;21;58;13 - 00;22;21;01
Greg Musselman
Yeah. Yeah. So? So 2007 I was in Nigeria and a place called Ogun State, and Abeokuta is the name of the place. And so Voice of the Martyrs Canada and some of our other partners around the world were supporting this orphanage in school. And there were hundreds of kids there, and most of them had lost one or both parents due to persecution in the north.
00;22;21;03 - 00;22;41;17
Greg Musselman
And so I met this little young boy named Nampak Koussa, and he was like 13 years old. And about four years before that, there was an attack on his village. His brother, his sister and his parents were all murdered. He was hit with a machete and he was shot. He survived. He ended up finding his mother's lifeless body.
00;22;41;20 - 00;23;01;29
Greg Musselman
And so I'd interviewed him and there was two or three other children that I interviewed Young, that were being taken care of at this orphanage. And so anyway, Nampak was, you know, his story really impacted me. And so we did a DVD and we had on the front of the cover the DVD of a photo of an crack with this tear running down his face.
00;23;02;04 - 00;23;24;15
Greg Musselman
boy. And so the story, of course, is stayed with me. And then a couple of years later, I saw another picture of him. He's about 15 and he'd grown quite, quite a bit. And, you know, and, you know, then you go on and you know, I've done hundreds of interviews. And so one day I'm working on my computer and I just, you know, had Facebook up and I saw a message and it was from Nampak.
00;23;24;15 - 00;23;42;20
Greg Musselman
And I go and it's like, wow, that's you know, I immediately knew it was Yeah, yeah. And and I saw and it says, Hello, Hello Mr. Greg. I don't know if you remember me and you know, then, you know, my parents died and you interviewed me, you know, Steven Center in Abeokuta and, you know, of course I, you know, remembered him.
00;23;42;27 - 00;23;58;24
Greg Musselman
Then I went into my the other room where I keep my DVDs and all these things, and it's not the most organized system, but I was able to find that DVD. Now, the problem is I don't have a, you know, on my computer. I don't have a DVD player, but I did have found a DVD player and played it.
00;23;58;27 - 00;24;14;27
Greg Musselman
And anyway, then I you know, I messaged Jim back and I said, yeah, Nampak, I remember you. You know, I've done hundreds of interviews, but your story really impacted me. And and he told me how he had, you know, when he when I interviewed him, he said he want to be a doctor. And he had he was a microbiologist.
00;24;14;27 - 00;24;33;20
Greg Musselman
Now he's 30 years old. And and then he, you know, says, I still want to be a doctor. And and I applied at a couple of universities, one in McGill and in Quebec and the other the University of Alberta. And and I'm thinking, wow, this is interesting. And so I emailed them back and know I told them, yeah, I remember your story.
00;24;33;20 - 00;24;50;20
Greg Musselman
Then he sends me a message back and just says, Yeah, you know that you made my day and I'm glad you remembered me. So we've been in conversation and then I was able to get the DVD on to a file so I could send it to him, which he now has. And I'm planning on doing a podcast interview with him.
00;24;50;26 - 00;25;19;26
Greg Musselman
And when I'm there in May. The plan is now to interview him. And now and here's the weird I mean, again, God pulls these things together, but the day I was interviewing a guy named Mark LIPTAK from Stefan, his ministry. So it's Stefan, his foundation. They work with persecuted Christians. And I hadn't seen Mark in many years. He works with one of our partner organizations in the UK, and it was about that massacre of the 240 or more Christians that died around Christmas in Plateau State.
00;25;19;28 - 00;25;44;02
Greg Musselman
So I interview him. Then I get this message from Nampak and Nampak is now working for Stefan, his ministries with persecuted Christians and he sent me some photos of when he went up into this village where all these Christians had been killed and they were bringing food and supplies. Wow. And so you know, I mean, I got other stories and I know you guys as well of the personal connection.
00;25;44;04 - 00;25;47;24
Greg Musselman
And of course, now, if I mean, if he wants to come to Canada, come on, live in my house or whatever.
00;25;47;24 - 00;25;48;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah.
00;25;48;18 - 00;26;15;21
Greg Musselman
Right. And because he wants to become a doctor still and so God is God works and you have these personal relationships in it, it kind of puts the wind back in the sail and it shows that God is on his throne. He's in control. Even when things look like they're out of control, whether it's, you know, anywhere in our world, we see what's happening in Ukraine, in Gaza, Sudan, Yemen, all over the world, even in our own nations, you know, kind of in America.
00;26;15;24 - 00;26;32;17
Greg Musselman
But yet in the you know, in the middle of all that, God is working by his Holy Spirit. And we just have to be listening to what he is saying and what he's doing and not get overwhelmed with all that. The things that are going on in our country and places. And then if you watch too much news, you can get a little bit jaded.
00;26;32;19 - 00;26;56;21
Greg Musselman
But let's keep that that love of Christ flowing from us and and just sharing, you know, the gospel, why things that we do on Monday nights in Edmonton, we go downtown in the inner city and people living in tents and in front of him following what's happening here. But you've been trying to clear all these tents out and then they just come back and, you know, people are so broken and mental illness and addiction, but let's just go show them the love of Jesus.
00;26;56;24 - 00;27;10;29
Greg Musselman
It's the simple things of keeping us grounded in him and not thinking too much of ourselves, not thinking too little because God loves us and he created us in his image. But how we can then be effective in sharing this amazing message of Jesus?
00;27;11;01 - 00;27;38;28
Joshua Hoffert
I think I think, you know, I, I just want to say this. Maybe this is too controversial for every political, national prophetic word someone gives. They should at least feed ten people on the street. And then if if they did that, then I would go, okay, now we'll start to listen to what you have to say. That's that's I think that's my deal from here on out.
00;27;39;01 - 00;27;40;14
Murray Dueck
That should have been your eighth point.
00;27;40;20 - 00;27;41;29
Joshua Hoffert
That should be the point.
00;27;41;29 - 00;27;42;11
Murray Dueck
Of.
00;27;42;13 - 00;27;44;03
Joshua Hoffert
Top of the list.
00;27;44;05 - 00;27;46;07
Greg Musselman
You know what I say keeps us grounded. I mean.
00;27;46;11 - 00;27;48;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
00;27;48;12 - 00;28;08;16
Greg Musselman
Yeah. The challenge with public ministry, you know, for whatever reason, the Lord has allowed me, whether it's hosting Huntly Street or speaking in churches, conferences, in whatever it is, you can get kind of puffed up with that. You know, Look at me, man of God, you know, whatever. And as soon as you get that attitude, you're on your way to destruction.
00;28;08;16 - 00;28;31;16
Greg Musselman
I mean, we've seen leaders in Canada, in America, around the world, prominent leaders. I'm still here by the way. My camera just went off. But no, no, we're on audio, so don't worry about it. That's all right. But but when you look at these leaders that have fallen, you go, well, how did that happen? Now, I'm not judging because I got feet of clay like anybody else.
00;28;31;19 - 00;28;52;14
Greg Musselman
But, you know, we have no there's no place for pastors to be or leaders to be, you know, abusing their people or manipulating and to building their kingdom on Earth, you know, you know, not using funds properly. We need to be people that are humble. And and I like what your point is. Let's let's just do the basic things.
00;28;52;14 - 00;28;57;25
Greg Musselman
What did Jesus tell us? We know he told us to feed the poor, Right? You know, to love the broken hearted.
00;28;57;25 - 00;28;59;24
Murray Dueck
When did we see you? Right.
00;28;59;27 - 00;29;07;01
Greg Musselman
We say, you know, Yeah, I like, well, I was on TV. Didn't you see me on TV? Jesus, don't you get Huntley Street in heaven? You know?
00;29;07;04 - 00;29;09;28
Murray Dueck
And he saw you a you.
00;29;09;28 - 00;29;28;22
Greg Musselman
In tears about that. It's, it's like, you know. Well then good and faithful servant is what the goal should be, you know, rather than building kingdoms on earth. And I mean even some of these prominent leaders, I think they thought they may be fooled. Everybody. Then it ends up coming out in the end anyway. Yeah, they will be revealed.
00;29;28;22 - 00;29;46;09
Greg Musselman
And I mean, this is still a loving God. He's not vindictive, but it is a warning to the rest of us that are still here that, hey, keep your head low. It's like there was this and I believe this. What a good prophetic word is that, you know, Jesus has got the sword any and if you bow, he will need you.
00;29;46;11 - 00;29;50;11
Greg Musselman
And if you're standing straight up. Well, let me reiterate.
00;29;50;14 - 00;29;57;06
Murray Dueck
So I think John Jackson used to say that when the land more of God comes, if you want to be the lowest blade of grass.
00;29;57;07 - 00;30;01;19
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. That's easy to say. Yeah, I like that. I was just going to say that one reason.
00;30;01;19 - 00;30;03;20
Greg Musselman
That I'm using that.
00;30;03;22 - 00;30;08;11
Joshua Hoffert
This better to be a low blade of grass when the lawnmower of life comes by. That was.
00;30;08;13 - 00;30;08;16
Murray Dueck
The.
00;30;08;17 - 00;30;35;00
Joshua Hoffert
Statements we had hovering around streams. That's right. Yeah. Well, we lost. We lost that right. That that absolute value for humility. You know, there's a there's a dialog that happens in the desert father movement in the early church where a disciple comes to his father and says, why do we not see the same kind of spiritual power that we saw earlier in the movement?
00;30;35;02 - 00;30;53;25
Joshua Hoffert
And and the father says, but the reason why is because we've exchanged we've exchanged the actual work for the secondary work, which is the actual work is the work of love. And he says the secondary work is the vocation that we that we take up. And he says, But what happens when a brother says, Come, can you come to me?
00;30;53;25 - 00;31;30;14
Joshua Hoffert
I'm sick, Can you help me? We say, I'm too busy, I have work to do. So we've exchanged the secondary importance for the primary importance and we no longer actually practice love. And because the love is grown cold, the power grows cold as well. Wow. And it's I mean, it's an excellent, excellent point, but it's basically exactly what you're saying is we've gotten so caught up with building a ministry, building a kingdom, building a church, building an apostolic network, you know, building an influence, building an empire, whatever, that we've totally lost sight of what actually makes the kingdom thrive.
00;31;30;18 - 00;31;58;26
Joshua Hoffert
It's interesting in the in Daniel, when Daniel is interpreting Nebuchadnezzar as dream and Nebuchadnezzar, you know, the trees cut down seven times seven, whether it's seven days, months, years, whatever, you're going to be roaming the fields like a crazy person, Daniel says. Is he? He gives him advice. He gives Nebuchadnezzar advice. If you'll humble yourself, take care of the poor and do good to those people around you who have nothing.
00;31;59;00 - 00;32;10;15
Joshua Hoffert
Perhaps God will relent from his judgment. It's like, what? Know that God was so concerned about the poor that Nebuchadnezzar, who needed to be cut down.
00;32;10;19 - 00;32;11;02
Greg Musselman
Could have a.
00;32;11;02 - 00;32;38;14
Joshua Hoffert
Levee, aided the judgment that God promised just by feeding the poor. Well, that's crazy. That is crazy. Yeah. If you'll do this, maybe God will relent from the judgment that he has coming. And it's like, man, if we just capture that idea that the fundamental works of the gospel are feeding the poor, taking care of the sick, keeping yourself unsupported from the world, being it being in that place of humility and love and tenderness.
00;32;38;20 - 00;33;05;06
Joshua Hoffert
And it's not the secondary work of building everything, and it's the primary work of building up the local church, building up the local people, like you said, going down to the street, going down to the the the homeless camp, you know, basically once a week and taking care of is as uncomfortable as that can be. Right? Because you've got mental health issues and you're going to hear some stuff that you probably not comfortable hearing and, you know, some rougher language and all that kind of stuff.
00;33;05;06 - 00;33;08;11
Joshua Hoffert
Right. But it's it's that's where the spirit is.
00;33;08;14 - 00;33;26;13
Greg Musselman
That's the father just keeps you grounded in before he goes. The one thing I just want to say to is like, how come I was doing an interview recently and this kind of stuck in my mind is, you know our persecuted Christians, more spiritual than, you know, us, that maybe live in the West. I mean, we debate that or whatever.
00;33;26;16 - 00;33;34;03
Greg Musselman
But they certainly are single focused. And one of the things a persecution does, right, it keeps us focused on what really matters.
00;33;34;03 - 00;33;34;15
Joshua Hoffert
Sure.
00;33;34;20 - 00;33;55;21
Greg Musselman
So if you're being persecuted in Nigeria, you're not worried about some of the things of the world. You know, it's it's you want to survive. You're worrying about your family and and you want to share the gospel and you want to see the kingdom of God move forward. So it in a sense, it it sharpens our minds. And I a friend of mine, his name is Madani JEREMYSCAHILL, he's from Eritrea.
00;33;55;28 - 00;34;18;18
Greg Musselman
And so 2002, they shut the church evangelical churches down because they're a part of the CIA and they're spies for Ethiopia. And so they started putting the pastors in prison. In fact, there's two pastors I met in 2004 that this may it'll be 20 years that they hope, like Gideon. Yeah. Wow. And there's a whole back story to that in terms of how our deep personal connection.
00;34;18;18 - 00;34;21;20
Joshua Hoffert
I was thinking three months or something when you're telling us, right.
00;34;21;22 - 00;34;44;16
Greg Musselman
All the years and they're still there because the church in Asmara, the capital city in Eritrea, was 10,000 people and the church was growing so rapidly in Eritrea and it still is growing even though they put, you know, Christians and shipping containers and military prisons and some have died, some have died trying to escape the country. But one of the guys that I'd met while I was there and he spent two and a half years in prison.
00;34;44;16 - 00;35;06;07
Greg Musselman
Kanani Gebre Mescal is his name. He actually lives now in California and he's actually stayed in my home. And so after many years he was able to, you know, find me and we ended up talking on our face time and we commented about how we were a little grayer than the last time that we had met, you know, 20 years before or 15 years before, whatever the time frame at that point was.
00;35;06;09 - 00;35;37;15
Greg Musselman
But I ended up interviewing him for my podcast in Front straight. And one of the things I said, well, how you know, you're in prison, what do you take from that? He said, it was a free gift I got to suffer for Jesus and I'm gone. Like, either you're insane or this is true. And because I know him and I know his character and again, we've spent time together in person and then on, you know, emailing and texting and, you know, face time, things like that is I know that that is authentic and true.
00;35;37;17 - 00;36;01;16
Greg Musselman
And so there's something about when we're persecuted because we're doing the right things. Now, there's also, too and I've seen it in places like Iraq where Christians there from historic churches were being killed by, you know, Al Qaida and these different Islamic groups. And they had no idea why they were being persecuted. You know, they probably didn't have a personal relationship with Jesus.
00;36;01;18 - 00;36;22;24
Greg Musselman
But, you know, whether it was in Iraq or, you know, people that had come from Syria that that were nominal Christians that came in a personal relationship with Jesus, and it flipped the switch. And they are so passionate and doing amazing things for God's kingdom. So does persecution can have an effect on the church. Absolutely. But it's where we are postured.
00;36;22;24 - 00;36;41;07
Greg Musselman
And if we are in a place where we are trying, you know, our best to follow the teachings of Jesus and loving our enemies and doing the things he wants us to do, and then we're suffering, he will definitely give us the grace to endure that. And even if it means our death, well, then we get to be with him forever.
00;36;41;10 - 00;36;49;24
Greg Musselman
Which we will some point anyway. We're all going to die with that little blade of grass. We just want to get under that, you know, blade and the lawnmower, Right.
00;36;49;24 - 00;37;08;01
Joshua Hoffert
So yeah, yeah I love that that the that the like if you're going to boil it down to anything, the persecution keeps the focus very singular. Yes. And that Jesus said right. If you're, if your eye is single. Right. If it's seeing things as they are, if it's single, if then your body will be full of great light.
00;37;08;01 - 00;37;36;28
Joshua Hoffert
You know, there's it seems to be very much in line with that. So that's just I love that. Well, Greg, we won't take any more of your time. So for you've got a podcast called Closer to the Fire. And so everybody you can check out the podcast. I want to get a hold of you or a voice of the martyrs and, and, you know, if they donate support, whatever way they can come alongside what's the best way for them to do that?
00;37;37;00 - 00;37;41;18
Greg Musselman
Yeah, I would go to the website V or M Canada dot com. We'll put.
00;37;41;18 - 00;37;42;05
Joshua Hoffert
A link.
00;37;42;08 - 00;37;42;15
Greg Musselman
Yeah.
00;37;42;16 - 00;37;43;29
Joshua Hoffert
We'll put that in the description. Yeah.
00;37;43;29 - 00;38;12;15
Greg Musselman
Appreciate that. And you can, you know there's and we also have it's called the Prayer and Persecution Alert which comes out on a weekly basis. We have, you know, three or four items every week to be praying for and yeah, then to find out more about what we're doing and, you know, stories and if you download the videos, use them in your churches, small groups, put them on Facebook or whatever, you know, to get the stories out so people can hear from our brothers and sisters and, you know, to be inspired and encouraged by them.
00;38;12;15 - 00;38;23;10
Greg Musselman
But yeah, so anything you need and if you want to get a hold of me and invite me to speak in a church or something like that, you can do it through the website in our office, which is in Oakville, Ontario.
00;38;23;12 - 00;38;29;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, and we've got, we've got you coming out to the Maritimes in March and you're going to be speaking here at the church.
00;38;30;00 - 00;38;30;19
Greg Musselman
Looking forward to.
00;38;30;19 - 00;38;52;14
Joshua Hoffert
It. And so so yeah, looking forward to it as well. So as I think the old statement, I don't care how old it is, but I'm pretty sure it's an early church, one where the the seed of revival is the blood of the martyrs that, you know, I'm just reminded of that and love what you're doing great.
00;38;52;18 - 00;38;57;24
Greg Musselman
What are the martyrs Is the seed of the church kind of like that? It was guy named Tertullian. And Julian.
00;38;57;24 - 00;38;58;15
Joshua Hoffert
Said that. Okay.
00;38;58;22 - 00;39;06;29
Greg Musselman
And it's and it's interesting because that can't be a blanket statement. There needs to be some context in that in terms.
00;39;06;29 - 00;39;07;10
Joshua Hoffert
Of.
00;39;07;13 - 00;39;36;25
Greg Musselman
Why that's happening. But there's definitely truth and I remember being in a church up in northern Pakistan and near China, and there had been a significant Christian population there, you know, 500 years ago. And then Islam came in and they wiped out, you know, basically the church. They went underground or they left the area. And so some young Bible school students went up there and actually the guy that was leading it at a Bible school, he graduated in Lahore and had a vision.
00;39;36;29 - 00;39;55;06
Greg Musselman
And he saw people with, you know, these wraps that you see like in Afghanistan and some of these places. And so he knew it was northern Pakistan and, you know, the big mountains up there and the rushing river and all that. And so they went up there and they went to the, you know, the village leaders and said, look, we're going to start a church here.
00;39;55;06 - 00;40;19;06
Greg Musselman
Is that okay? And they go, well, there's no Christians here. yeah, yeah, there's Christians. While the drug addicts, the prostitutes and Nama and all Christians, whatever. And so they started to disciple them. And then by the time we got up, there's probably a church of 200 or whatever, and they started a sewing school. And so the Muslim women and you know, you had the Sunnis and the Shia and the Christians who all didn't trust each other and all became friends.
00;40;19;13 - 00;40;27;00
Greg Musselman
And then the church started grow and that was actually where I found out in the Urdu language. When you say muscle man, that's Muslim. Muslim.
00;40;27;02 - 00;40;29;02
Joshua Hoffert
Hence I really.
00;40;29;04 - 00;40;52;10
Greg Musselman
I don't know. So if I'm ever captured, they go Christian, a muslim muscle man. Yeah, yeah. But, but the point of the story was, is that and I said to this particular pastor, we call them Parvez on our video, and I said to them, I said, you know, no church or at least I mean, there's always a remnant somewhere, whether it's underground or whatever, but now it's visible and it's growing.
00;40;52;17 - 00;41;11;10
Greg Musselman
And I said, you know, what do you to that? And why has there been no church here for hundreds of years? And he said he believed that the blood of the martyrs was crying out for that part of Pakistan and then the Holy Spirit gives this young Bible school student graduate this vision, and then other team members come with them and then voice the martyrs.
00;41;11;10 - 00;41;39;12
Greg Musselman
We're able to help them build a church. And they expanded the sewing center. And so there's something, you know, when Tertullian made that, you know, that comment there's there's a lot of truth to that and that there's places in the world and that's why like you know even historically where the church was strong and where it was almost annihilated and now it's coming back, you know, whether it's in Africa and, you know, and we see in the Middle East in some of these place, India, you know, God is working.
00;41;39;12 - 00;41;47;17
Greg Musselman
And I think we we get to you know, we have a front row seat in many ways to see what the Holy Spirit is doing. But then we also see a lot of the pain as well.
00;41;47;19 - 00;42;08;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right. That's right. Well, Greg, thanks so much for sharing and sharing so candidly and just sharing your heart as well. And could you maybe we could end could you lead us in a prayer and our listeners in a prayer over the persecuted church and all over, you know, over the Western church and how we can and how we can be praying for them?
00;42;08;16 - 00;42;33;18
Greg Musselman
Sure, Father, just thank you, first off, for the opportunity that we have to be able to openly talk about you and with the work of your Holy Spirit, whether it's Canada, America, Nigeria, Pakistan, Eritrea, Somalia, all over the world where you are working by your spirit. And so we thank you for that incredible privilege. We do pray, Lord, that you will help us to remember those that are in bonds, Those are in prison.
00;42;33;21 - 00;42;54;23
Greg Musselman
I think of countries like North Korea, where there's 30,000 or so followers of Jesus in these concentration camps. It's horrible. And where they can't meet any more than two or three or they could be caught and killed and even found with a Bible. So we pray for the protection over these North Korean believers. We hear of all the violence that continues in Nigeria.
00;42;54;25 - 00;43;16;26
Greg Musselman
Would you protect our brothers and sisters in Christ that you would heal those that have had their hearts broken? God, you are one that brings hope and healing into some of the most desperate situations. So we do pray, Lord, all over the all over the world where your church is under attack. And even here in Canada, where and wherever people are listening, there's a there's a real enemy.
00;43;16;28 - 00;43;39;07
Greg Musselman
And it looks different in different nations. But he is trying to destroy your church to try to destroy you. And now he's going after your people. And so we pray, Lord, that you'll help us in Canada to remain strong, that not to compromise, but wrestle between that love and grace and truth and holiness. We can only do this by the Holy Spirit.
00;43;39;09 - 00;43;55;14
Greg Musselman
And so we thank you, Lord, for what you're doing. And continuing to do that. We get to participate in it. I pray for those that are listening, and maybe they're wrestling with what you've called them to do. I pray that you just make it very clear as you lead in God, you're not trying to hide it so that you frustrate people.
00;43;55;14 - 00;44;21;06
Greg Musselman
But there's also a part of this searching and digging in and getting in that deep and intimate place with you. And so, again, I thank you for all you're doing for Josh and Mary and work. And again, we get to participate in the Kingdom of God and continue to use us for your glory. And because is a day that we will stand before you to give a count of all that we've done with the gifts and the talents and the life that you've given us on this planet to serve the King of Kings.
00;44;21;06 - 00;44;24;11
Greg Musselman
And we pray this in the powerful name of Jesus. Amen.
00;44;24;13 - 00;44;42;20
Joshua Hoffert
Amen. Amen. Well, thank you so much, Craig. Thanks, guys. Thanks, Mary. It is always great to hang out with all of you guys, and we'll have to have you back on Greg and talk. I want to dive into early church theology with you because you you obviously know what you're talking about. So I'm off to do a follow up.
00;44;42;22 - 00;44;47;05
Joshua Hoffert
And everybody, thanks for listening. And until next time.