In Part 2 of our interview with Steve Stewart of Impact Nations, we dive deeper into the desert journey of his heart and how it challenged all of his paradigms. The pivotal moments on his roadmap included burnout, the Charismatic move, and his rediscovery of the early church fathers.
In the midst of the simplistic narratives in traditional evangelicalism, Steve began questioning the limitations of his theology. What he found transformed him, the ministry, and how Impact Nations now engages with their mission. The significance of liturgy, sacraments, and the divine dance of the Trinity has been shaping a more profound understanding of God's love and presence in Steve's world.
For more about Impact Nations and Steve Stewart, visit: https://www.impactnations.com/
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
In Part 2 of our interview with Steve Stewart of Impact Nations, we dive deeper into the desert journey of his heart and how it challenged all of his paradigms. The pivotal moments on his roadmap included burnout, the Charismatic move, and his rediscovery of the early church fathers.
In the midst of the simplistic narratives in traditional evangelicalism, Steve began questioning the limitations of his theology. What he found transformed him, the ministry, and how Impact Nations now engages with their mission. The significance of liturgy, sacraments, and the divine dance of the Trinity has been shaping a more profound understanding of God's love and presence in Steve's world.
For more about Impact Nations and Steve Stewart, visit: https://www.impactnations.com/
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
00;00;19;14 - 00;00;25;19
Steve Stewart
The church has become the chaplain of the state.
00;00;25;22 - 00;00;28;12
Murray Dueck
A lot of went up with people back on that one.
00;00;28;15 - 00;00;29;12
Joshua Hoffert
Fighting words right.
00;00;29;12 - 00;00;32;07
Steve Stewart
There. Very, very true. And.
00;00;32;10 - 00;00;34;08
Murray Dueck
You know, they repeat it. You've got to repeat it.
00;00;34;09 - 00;00;59;28
Steve Stewart
It's the 21st century churches, because except of state.
00;01;00;02 - 00;01;25;17
Murray Dueck
So build it off Josh's last question, because this is where he was going with, you know, what happened in with your desert time there. And then again it with after the heart attack. Because, you know, our audience too, I think would really relate to this charismatics on a journey. So a lot of people out there, I think they would be thinking, well, why would you need to change your theology?
00;01;25;17 - 00;01;35;16
Murray Dueck
You're seeing the sick healed, you're seeing the power of God touch the world. Why? Why? Like you're getting everything we want. Why? Yeah.
00;01;35;19 - 00;01;58;15
Steve Stewart
You got it. The I saw a cartoon yesterday. Somebody posted of two ticket tickets and one was a spiritual gifts, and the line went forever, and the other was spiritual formation. And the guy's just sitting there. Bingo. That hit it. Yeah. Just let me talk about it for a little bit, okay?
00;01;58;19 - 00;02;00;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah.
00;02;00;07 - 00;02;25;29
Steve Stewart
You probably figured out from a thumbnail sketch I've been involved in some very profound spiritual activity since I walked into that church, you know, all those years ago. And. But even in the midst of all of that, a little voice in the back of my head, within three or four years started saying is, is this all there is?
00;02;26;02 - 00;02;32;23
Steve Stewart
That there's got to be more fact. Years ago later, years later, I had that on my business card. There's got to be more.
00;02;32;25 - 00;02;33;12
Murray Dueck
Wow.
00;02;33;14 - 00;03;19;09
Steve Stewart
I think what has happened and many people of my generation, guys in their sixties and seventies and guys who were part of charismatic movements, Assemblies of God movements, etc., there's been a real move towards something that is much more grounded historically. And I would say theologically, like part two, where although I've been a, you know, adult lifetime evangelical, the things that I just assumed as I started to think more and pray more and frankly, I think it was just the Holy Spirit pulling me.
00;03;19;11 - 00;03;43;06
Steve Stewart
I started saying, Wait a minute, you know, I've got I've got a dear friend who was one of the key, key leaders in the vineyard movement in California. I mean, key And he spent time with Dylan and Keith GREENE. And, you know, those kids, he got baptized. It'll be three years in May. I think he got baptized in the Roman Catholic Church.
00;03;43;08 - 00;03;45;04
Steve Stewart
Wow.
00;03;45;06 - 00;03;47;06
Joshua Hoffert
That's a pretty big shift. Yeah, yeah.
00;03;47;08 - 00;04;13;10
Steve Stewart
Yeah. But it's it is. But I used to think it wasn't knowing too much because, for example, I no longer go to a charismatic evangelical church. My wife still does because she can really connect with the Lord there. But I, I need I needed something that took me deeper, not only into the history of church, but deeper into the greater church.
00;04;13;12 - 00;04;44;03
Steve Stewart
Often on my on my podcast, I'll end up in the river of God's really wide. I go to an Episcopal in Canada, an Anglican church. And every week in every big region, one and a half over two services. But every week I know we're going to have three scripture readings and a song. I know we're going to say the Nicene Creed.
00;04;44;06 - 00;05;04;27
Steve Stewart
I know that we're going to have prayer that we're going to see together and we're going to have some times of our own prayer. And I'll be honest with you, all my years of working with pastors, if I had a dollar for every time they and I can't get our people to pray, I can't get our people to read their Bibles because we don't model it right.
00;05;04;28 - 00;05;35;01
Steve Stewart
If you come to a liturgical service for some of your listeners who may not know what that is, that can be Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, if you come through with liturgical service, which which goes from what's called the lectionary, I know this coming week with the scripture readings are going to be you will get more Scripture in one hour, then you're going to get in a year in your charismatic evangelical church.
00;05;35;02 - 00;05;35;19
Murray Dueck
Wow.
00;05;35;22 - 00;06;24;26
Steve Stewart
You're also going to be praying the prayers that establish the foundation of the church, the Apostles Creed, the I should presume, increase of the Apostles, the Nicene Creed is huge. I also recommend it for people in their own prayer life. I, I want that getting deep into me week by week by week. The other thing you will have and I the book after this one that's coming out of start of the text when I talk about the Eucharist right you going you see we I say we and I'm not an evangelical anymore I'm an extension but I don't ignore 45 years of history and all my friends.
00;06;24;29 - 00;07;01;07
Steve Stewart
But we emphasized on what we call communion or the liturgy or the Lord's Supper or the Lord's table. Take your pick. We emphasize do this in remembrance of me and the historic liturgical and bigger church. By the way, we evangelicals are not that big of a slice in the overall pie, which to us from the historical liturgical church emphasizes, This is my body, this is my blood, not this is a token of the I believe with all my heart.
00;07;01;12 - 00;07;44;25
Steve Stewart
There is a there's a spiritual transfusion that takes place for me. And and it's really, really important. And it's part of that overall journey of being more and more centered in Christ. So there's a book by a guy named Bevins who written about six years ago Ever Ancient ever knew, which is a quote. And Augustine and he's talking about this great move that is happening from mainline evangelicalism into liturgical, the Anglican slash Episcopal or the number one recipient.
00;07;44;28 - 00;08;26;09
Steve Stewart
Catholics are number two or 373. Why is that happening? Because I don't want more sounds and wonders on a Sunday morning instead of scripture, prayer, creed, and the Eucharist. You know, I've got a good friend named Brian Sund is a wonderful church, and he's brought the two together. If only I knew 25 years ago what I know now, I would have brought it all together because I still love great worship, because the church I go to, I only started going there a little over a year ago.
00;08;26;11 - 00;08;40;09
Steve Stewart
Just to give you an idea of the choir, Christina said, Well, you love music or you're going to sing in the choir. And I said, I don't think I'm old enough to get in.
00;08;40;11 - 00;08;43;12
Murray Dueck
But you're still in the youth group. Yes.
00;08;43;14 - 00;09;13;00
Steve Stewart
But you know, they're faithful in the presence of the Lord is so profound for me, so profound in that liturgy. So that's, I think, a big part of frankly, we know the church is getting smaller and smaller. And one of the things that is happening, it's a chicken and the egg thing, the the evangelical, and that includes charismatic evangelical.
00;09;13;02 - 00;09;40;21
Steve Stewart
The pie's getting smaller, so they're fighting harder for their slice of the pie. They're not bad people. They're good people who love Jesus. But it's a really bad system. And so with that will will be more seeker sensitive, will be more issues oriented, although they're not about real issues will be whatever we need to be that people will like to come in.
00;09;40;23 - 00;10;12;14
Steve Stewart
I deal with the persecuted church many, many, many times a month. It was yesterday. Middle Eastern and I will next week. The persecuted church is growing and growing because it costs something to follow Christ. It costs in terms of of making a stand or even even just differentiating ourselves. It cost nothing to be an evangelical in North America.
00;10;12;16 - 00;10;42;25
Steve Stewart
That's why I'm embarrassed. Last night I did my final teaching on the Beatitudes series that the Episcopal Church, and I said, I'm almost embarrassed to teach this one. Blessed to the persecuted, because it's not that they say mean things about you at the office. I work with people who have permanent scars from gun wounds and stab wounds and who work with people who die all the time.
00;10;42;27 - 00;10;55;26
Steve Stewart
So we have watered it down. To use Brian Zorn's term, the church has become the chaplain of the state.
00;10;55;28 - 00;11;01;08
Murray Dueck
Who has a lot of people back that way.
00;11;01;10 - 00;11;02;08
Joshua Hoffert
Fighting words right.
00;11;02;08 - 00;11;03;24
Steve Stewart
There. Very, very true.
00;11;03;24 - 00;11;07;04
Murray Dueck
I repeat it. You've got to repeat it.
00;11;07;04 - 00;11;13;00
Steve Stewart
It's the the the 21st century church has become the chaplain of the state.
00;11;13;03 - 00;11;14;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;11;14;08 - 00;11;52;09
Steve Stewart
And so we are anti biblical, especially evangelicals. This is statistically true. Did you know that evangelicals, by about a three fold amount are saying we should keep refugees and aliens out of our country if they ever read the Bible, that they are way less likely to give money to the poor face to face. And they I think I read 26 to 63% between non-Christians and evangelicals see the poor.
00;11;52;09 - 00;11;55;09
Steve Stewart
It's their own fault. They're lazy.
00;11;55;11 - 00;11;57;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;11;57;03 - 00;12;04;20
Steve Stewart
If you've ever worked with people who have I work with the poor all over the world, they would put our work ethic to shame.
00;12;04;22 - 00;12;06;04
Joshua Hoffert
That's very true.
00;12;06;06 - 00;12;29;25
Steve Stewart
They never have have three guys sitting here for no and a half on couches. It just because you've got to work to survive. So we have lost the gospel. One of the things I have said in this new book, which I wish I had the cover for you, but somebody designed a lovely cover, but it's pursuing the mystery of Christ.
00;12;29;27 - 00;12;53;03
Steve Stewart
And one of my simple thesis statements is our revelation of the gospel can only be as big as our revelation of Christ. And we have a small gospel. Our gospel basically on a Sunday morning where they still do present the gospel and it's going to be come to Jesus now, come to church. And one day you'll go to heaven.
00;12;53;06 - 00;12;55;16
Steve Stewart
The early church would have not even recognized.
00;12;55;19 - 00;12;59;19
Joshua Hoffert
Well, you to be fair, you might get stacked some chairs in there too.
00;12;59;22 - 00;13;07;13
Steve Stewart
So you serve well. You come to church, but it's not bad people. It's a theology that's got smaller and smaller.
00;13;07;16 - 00;13;15;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, well, I. I've written down a quote from Steve Stewart. They're good people with bad theology. That's the quote I want to use from now on.
00;13;15;13 - 00;13;16;23
Steve Stewart
I think it's very true.
00;13;16;26 - 00;13;18;09
Joshua Hoffert
It is. Yeah. That's for.
00;13;18;09 - 00;13;46;22
Steve Stewart
Bad guys. So there's this great move that encourages me. More and more and more people are pressing into going deeper in Christ. I tend to do some teaching on contemplative, although I'm very weak in it, but I'm committed to it for 40 years actually, before I ever even. Of course, that church where I had to read the books under the covers on.
00;13;46;25 - 00;14;15;21
Steve Stewart
But I believe if we can learn to connect, enter into the journey of connecting the lifelong journey. The other thing is I want to write a book on the on the Truth, the Trinity, doing the mystery of the Trinity. I'm just telling you, I don't know if I'll get there, but I'd like to. Yeah. This summer I'm doing one pursuing the mystery of the cross.
00;14;15;21 - 00;14;26;17
Steve Stewart
When I say I'm doing it in the summer, I'm doing is getting the first draft. Right, Right. There is more e-mails. We are not featuring Evangelicals are not Trinitarian.
00;14;27;06 - 00;14;28;28
Murray Dueck
there's fight words again. Let's talk about that.
00;14;28;28 - 00;14;49;17
Steve Stewart
We don't teach the Trinity. We don't talk about the Trinity. At best. We give lip service pastors like I was maybe every seven years say, I haven't talked about the Trinity, so I'm going to do a Sunday on the Father, a Sunday on the Sun and the Sun on the Holy Spirit, which is not even Trinitarian. All right.
00;14;49;19 - 00;15;31;01
Steve Stewart
Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful work characterizes paresis, which is about the the divine dance between fathers. And when I press into Christ, when I'm with Jesus, I said, If you've seen me, you've seen the Father. I am the Father and the Holy Spirit. We're all one right. Trinitarian for is indivisible. And the beauty of it is what the Incarnation is about is we're invited into the characteristic activity of the Trinity.
00;15;31;01 - 00;16;04;01
Steve Stewart
That's the beauty. He's saying this is welcome home. This is the activity that is the the nucleus of everything, of all creativity, of all the universe. This new book, I take a chapter on Christ in creation, and I take a chapter Christ beyond time, space and matter to begin to get us thinking. Remember Jesus said in John 435, Lift up your eyes and see.
00;16;04;03 - 00;16;37;24
Steve Stewart
Hebrews 1222 says to the church, There's kind of an implied or if they don't, don't you don't you know, don't you remember? You're called to Mount Zion, you're called to the heavenly Jerusalem. Your calls right now to myriads upon myriads of angels. You're called to the church of the firstborn right now. This is the the community. So you're called to this?
00;16;37;26 - 00;16;52;13
Steve Stewart
Paul says to the Galatians, I say, You started in the spirit you started. And that in the spirit doesn't mean you speak in tongues. And you say to say the Lord, it's that you live out of that inner reality.
00;16;52;15 - 00;16;53;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;16;53;07 - 00;17;22;22
Steve Stewart
And now you're you settled for something so small. The flesh, he calls it source. And this is a beautiful gospel. This is the gospel that is provoking me to write books these days. This is what tells me, surrounded by and with the Bradshaw Sex and the Church, Nordling and the Bryan signs and the Kenneth Tenors and on and on.
00;17;22;24 - 00;17;48;23
Steve Stewart
Because the Gospel is way too big and way too beautiful. And I actually got to where I just couldn't stay in the, the evangelical churches I was in, I was in one of the quote, successful ones, probably 5000 people on a Sunday. But what I heard was a transactional gospel. If you'll do this, he'll do that, right. That's not that's not the gospel.
00;17;48;23 - 00;18;35;02
Steve Stewart
It's never transactional, ever. Mark 115 Jesus first words, public utterance in his ministry, The kingdoms here you experience, your heart changes, met new and you believe we've turned it into. If you will repent and believe, then you'll see the kingdom. That's religion. It always was. It always will be. We this beautiful, beautiful, beautiful gospel. Is that it? The cross is not about punishing sin.
00;18;35;04 - 00;19;04;28
Steve Stewart
It's about healing sin. You don't punish a sick person. It's about Jesus saying come home. But coming home is even bigger than I used to realize. We're back to the peripatetic dance from home to the very center of the cosmos, of the universe of everything. Come home to the energies and the essence of God come home. This is the Gospel.
00;19;05;00 - 00;19;30;24
Steve Stewart
Because you get to my point in ministry and I don't really care very much what people think. You know, I often will say to someone, Well, you know, I could agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong. A So these are the passions of my life there. What keeps me going, you know, and, and now I'm in my seventies.
00;19;30;27 - 00;20;06;17
Steve Stewart
I'm pretty sure I feel more passion than I ever have, because that's really interesting. Bigger and bigger and more and more beautiful. More and more and more. And that I told our team, our Impact Nations. They said our mandate. Yes, we we do all the practical stuff. We lead people to Christ. We heal the sick. But I think at this time in God's story, impact nations responsibility and mandate is to proclaim and demonstrate a much more beautiful gospel.
00;20;06;19 - 00;20;37;00
Steve Stewart
Because I don't care if what kind of church you're from. There's a 98% chance you've heard of transactional gospel. Be good and God will take care of you. You know, there's that verse, somewhere it is written, my mind's just gone blank. So never mind, I'm not going to say it. If it wasn't blank, what?
00;20;37;03 - 00;20;54;24
Murray Dueck
We've got lots of questions, lots of good stuff. Boy, boy. It's like we we are drilling for oil. We hit the mother well there. What all this good about this is a thought. So just like to get your thinking on this back to Para Colossians, I'd say get to a crisis.
00;20;54;24 - 00;21;09;03
Steve Stewart
Crisis para crisis. That's where we get the good choreography. Choreography? The divine dance.
00;21;09;06 - 00;21;27;07
Murray Dueck
Now, do we find that in Scripture to the Greek fathers when they were working on the Trinity? Come up with that later today or later. But so go ahead. Here's a good pair, Chris. QUESTION So, you know, it's going to be an easy t ball one here for you because it's so me and Father Mike, you're sitting down.
00;21;27;09 - 00;21;31;09
Murray Dueck
So he was the guy that dumped it all in me and I dumped it all on you. So he's the only.
00;21;31;09 - 00;21;31;25
Steve Stewart
Guy, right?
00;21;32;02 - 00;21;40;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So and I was picking a fight. I was kind of and I've said this before, but I'd love to hear your statement on this because I think it'll bring up a good dialog.
00;21;40;28 - 00;21;47;07
Joshua Hoffert
This might be one of the the clarion calls of Voices from the Desert, because.
00;21;47;09 - 00;21;48;13
Murray Dueck
I keep going back to and it's.
00;21;48;13 - 00;21;49;29
Joshua Hoffert
Mary's heard this story a million.
00;21;49;29 - 00;22;04;09
Murray Dueck
Times. Yeah it's such a core value to me. It really is. Yeah. So, you know, I was trying to pick a fight and, you know, you know, in my Mennonite upbringing, boy, if you had a you had a cross in your church, you'd be lucky for symbolism, right? So but, you know, here are the Orthodox guys with Jesus on it.
00;22;04;09 - 00;22;19;23
Murray Dueck
So I'm like, come on, you know, Father Mike, why do you got Jesus on the cross? And he goes, Well, I don't know why the Catholics do it, But let me ask you let me ask you a question. Do you believe that Jesus is the exact representation of the father? And I said, well, I know as an evangelical, I know the answer.
00;22;19;23 - 00;22;41;09
Murray Dueck
Yes. So. So you believe like Philip said, Joe is the father, then we'll believe. And Jesus goes, When you've seen me, you've seen the father. You believe that, right? Yes. He goes, So when you're looking at Jesus on the cross, you're looking at perfect theology. I'm like, okay, well, what do you mean by that? He goes, Because that's what the father looks like, you know, Is he also on a throne in power?
00;22;41;09 - 00;22;50;19
Murray Dueck
Sure. But what if Jesus, look like on the cross? Humble, forgiving, merciful patient? You're kind, long suffering.
00;22;51;03 - 00;22;52;01
Steve Stewart
my God.
00;22;52;03 - 00;23;03;23
Murray Dueck
The father looks like the eye. Now you know where you want me to write an endorsement? Because I heard I am already there. So. But do you want to comment on that? Like. Yeah, like, let me.
00;23;03;29 - 00;23;06;11
Steve Stewart
Let me just riff on it. I don't know where it's going to go.
00;23;06;11 - 00;23;07;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00;23;07;11 - 00;23;38;04
Steve Stewart
We as non liturgical Protestants, we want to move from Good Friday to Sunday way too fast. I mean, for example, we skip over Christ descent into Hades on Saturday, but that's another topic. But we want to move to the empty cross. That's why we want a victorious Jesus. Yes, that's connected to the the church being the chaplain of the state, it's all about victory.
00;23;38;06 - 00;24;13;26
Steve Stewart
It's all about overcoming. And so we want a victorious Jesus. So of course he's not. When I see him on the cross, that's not victorious. Jesus as a Jesus who not only is still suffering, as he must certainly be in these days, but but I absolutely agree with Father Michael. I've never met. I think I it somewhere in the book and it's certainly well in the next book that the greatest revelation of the love of God.
00;24;13;28 - 00;24;23;26
Steve Stewart
In fact I would say now more the greatest revelation of who the Triune God is is Christ on the cross. It's the greatest tribulation now.
00;24;23;29 - 00;24;27;18
Murray Dueck
And see, that's an amazing statement because again, we're trying to get past the cross.
00;24;27;24 - 00;25;01;20
Steve Stewart
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's where we're supposed to stop, you know, there's a, there's a wonderful Saint Francis Basilica. The next city up is Santa Fe. And. And I go in there in the presence of the Lord. It's a big, huge stone basilica. But up to the left, there's a life size of Jesus on the cross. And if I go to Santa Fe 4 to 5 times, I've got to go and just sit on a bench and just stare.
00;25;01;27 - 00;25;19;06
Steve Stewart
Right. We we want a victorious Jesus. We do not understand, cannot love you know, that term prognosis is Philippians two, 5 to 11. He emptied himself.
00;25;19;09 - 00;25;20;05
Murray Dueck
Yes.
00;25;20;07 - 00;25;46;09
Steve Stewart
He kenosis. And so at the cross it's all about canonic love. I get such a kick out of this. It's in I think it's in Revelation five seven. I think John Self in heaven or a vision of heaven, however it is, he's there and he hears Behold the lion of the tribe of Judah. I don't know how many songs we sing about that.
00;25;46;11 - 00;25;47;09
Murray Dueck
Yes.
00;25;47;14 - 00;26;17;24
Steve Stewart
Yeah, baby. And he turns to see a lion. And what does he see? A slain lamb. We want a lion. He's a lamb. Wow. And he, by the way, he didn't God didn't just become Christ like in the Incarnation. He always was. He always was. He's always been the suffering one. What the Bible is about our journey of understanding who this God is.
00;26;17;27 - 00;26;18;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;26;18;15 - 00;26;25;28
Steve Stewart
More and more, it's it's our story about him that's really important that we understand that.
00;26;26;00 - 00;26;49;17
Murray Dueck
So I know Josh is going to want to get you know, I've stolen all the airspace here, but so when we think about that term, then from an evangelical perspective to, let's say, a contemplative perspective or a patristic perspective, when we read that verse, until Christ is formed in you, you how you hear that verse now is completely, let's say, different that you heard it 20 years ago.
00;26;49;22 - 00;27;05;14
Steve Stewart
Yeah, 30, 40 years ago, especially when I was in the Reformed Church, they would literally say, You need to glorify God by having your car always clean. Your lawn needs to be the best on the street and on and on and on. I'm not kidding. I'm not making this stuff up.
00;27;05;18 - 00;27;06;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah.
00;27;06;14 - 00;27;19;27
Steve Stewart
And, you know, we used to we used to talk about being conformed into the image of Christ and we think of the Lion of Judah.
00;27;20;00 - 00;27;20;27
Murray Dueck
Yes.
00;27;20;29 - 00;27;29;08
Steve Stewart
But we are being conformed in brokenness, you know, of Philippians 310 that I might know him.
00;27;29;10 - 00;27;29;29
Murray Dueck
Yes.
00;27;30;01 - 00;27;32;11
Steve Stewart
The fellowship of his suffering.
00;27;32;14 - 00;27;51;06
Murray Dueck
Do you know what, Steve? It's funny that you brought that up. I'm going to have to jump in here because I only figured this out about four years ago with you. Shock. Because when I read that passage that, you know, I gave it all up, that I mean, no Christ, right? Fellowship of the sufferings that right. And then it goes, not that I've already attained it, but I press on to the higher calling.
00;27;51;08 - 00;28;16;16
Murray Dueck
But I read higher calling as your calling for a vision in ministry and and I guess that's how I was taught, you know. You know, now that's done. Now let's get on with it. And yeah, when you read the passage, it doesn't say that once in there that it's about your vision, your calling. It's a no I think or refers to it five times and it's like, it's still there, it's still in my bones.
00;28;16;16 - 00;28;18;09
Murray Dueck
Like it's shocking.
00;28;18;11 - 00;28;37;20
Steve Stewart
Yeah, it's very true. You know, there's so many things we could spin off on, but it's, again, we have this, this linear view of Christ. Christ works in time, He does this and then he does this and then he does this. So then he gets me. So I don't drink too much and I don't, you know, smoke or whatever it is.
00;28;37;22 - 00;29;00;12
Steve Stewart
And then he gets me to where I'm not kicking the dog and yelling at my wife. And then he gets me to where I'm starting to really understand the scripture. You see what I'm doing in a linear way. Christ is always He's on the cross right now and he's resurrected right now. He's right. Now. Here's the little rule variations.
00;29;00;12 - 00;29;25;23
Steve Stewart
You guys know enough about inner healing and we're going to go back and Christ is we're going to picture Jesus there. What is happening to you? That's true. I'm not mocking it. That's helpful. But it's more than that. We're not asking him to go there. He never left there. Right. Because he's totally outside of time, Right? He's right there in the midst right now because he's limitless.
00;29;25;25 - 00;29;32;25
Steve Stewart
I think that's chapter one or two. You might want to look at that the more good.
00;29;32;27 - 00;29;35;06
Murray Dueck
Because I'm right there right now reading it.
00;29;35;09 - 00;29;57;09
Steve Stewart
The bigger he gets, the bigger he gets, the bigger he gets. What matter of man is this? They said when he spoke to the wind in the waves and said, don't knock it off. So, yes, we we must understand that being conformed into his image is not being better, stronger. You know, I present Colossians one, I think it's 27.
00;29;57;10 - 00;30;07;02
Steve Stewart
I present each each man maturing, Christ perfect in Christ. We we want to Rambo Jesus.
00;30;07;04 - 00;30;07;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;30;07;25 - 00;30;33;08
Steve Stewart
Action is found in Canada. Love in brokenness, in going lower and trusting him in the low place. See, that's what happens now when I go through a tough, you know, once every now and then I'll have a tough minute and a quarter. But then I got the victory again. You know, of course, I'm going to go through. I really know, though I may not feel this comfort.
00;30;33;08 - 00;30;41;23
Steve Stewart
I know he's comforting me. Yeah. So it may not it was newness. His new that's part of coming up through of the desert leaning upon.
00;30;41;26 - 00;30;43;08
Murray Dueck
The beloved.
00;30;43;11 - 00;30;59;01
Steve Stewart
Yeah. So yeah there's a depth. There's a depth and a longing in people's hearts that better worship teams more hyped up preaching not even.
00;30;59;03 - 00;31;02;27
Murray Dueck
A body of even smoke machines and worship.
00;31;03;00 - 00;31;03;21
Steve Stewart
What.
00;31;03;23 - 00;31;06;03
Murray Dueck
Not even smoke machines and worships going out and.
00;31;06;04 - 00;31;21;22
Steve Stewart
Smoke machines of old friends of mine who their kids took them to church and then the smoke machine and the lasers. But then the bubbles came down from the ceiling and you know, we shouldn't make fun because.
00;31;21;23 - 00;31;23;07
Murray Dueck
People got to start somewhere.
00;31;23;14 - 00;31;50;26
Steve Stewart
Evil. They're thinking this is going to help people get into the presence and it isn't. And so all of this the way paradox, my word, paradox, you know, that's one of the chapters in that last book, The Beatitudes. We don't like Paradox, We don't like mystery. That's why I wrote on the Mystery, you know, 28 times New Testament talks about mystery, 21 of them.
00;31;50;26 - 00;32;16;19
Steve Stewart
Paul, you've read some The Mystery of Christ in your evangelical or whatever church, of course, that it makes us uncomfortable. We want certainty. So we want definition. You can't you can't effectively be more and more open to Jesus and let him go deeper without smacking your nose right into paradox.
00;32;16;22 - 00;32;19;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah, all the time. The closest.
00;32;19;27 - 00;32;26;11
Steve Stewart
If you say, Well, this is who he is anyway, I'm going off on different things.
00;32;26;11 - 00;32;33;19
Murray Dueck
No, this is great. It's I'll kick the ball over to George here because we should take time. I don't want to steal. I got man.
00;32;33;21 - 00;33;05;19
Joshua Hoffert
Well, I mean you've got, you've been those are great questions. I mean, I'm just been pinging off different thoughts. But you guys are covering a lot of what I'm thinking about. You know, I, I, I think just just a couple of thoughts and maybe, Steve, you can respond is it seems to me I've thought about this actually, one of the things that we've said on the podcast here is that the salvation by faith alone single handedly destroyed Western civilization.
00;33;05;21 - 00;33;12;25
Joshua Hoffert
And, you know, it was a fun one that Mary and I talked through. I said it. Mary just concurred and laughed.
00;33;12;27 - 00;33;17;01
Murray Dueck
Right. Well, making the sign of the cross that no one else right.
00;33;17;04 - 00;33;18;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, but I'm just just.
00;33;18;11 - 00;33;19;27
Steve Stewart
The way that the.
00;33;19;29 - 00;33;47;13
Joshua Hoffert
Present day conceptions of Jesus. It seems to me that whether you go as you know, as far you know, as far as reformed through charismatic in terms of evangelical, you know, the spectrum there right. That on some level, every one of them robs Christ of at least mostly of the essential quality of his divinity, because they don't want to see God in Jesus.
00;33;47;15 - 00;34;10;20
Joshua Hoffert
People don't see God in Jesus. They see the the, you know, the perfect sacrifice on the cross, not the suffering father on the cross or the suffering God on the cross. Yeah, it's a loss of sinless sacrifice. Or they see in the in the infilling of the spirit that the needy man rather than the divine God who's received all that humanity needs.
00;34;10;28 - 00;34;32;10
Joshua Hoffert
Gregory Nazianzen Actually, you quoted him a couple of times in, in your book Reason as Gregory Nazianzen when I first discovered his orations on the Trinity that he talks through the nature of Jesus, it just stunned me and blew my mind. And it opens up your mind to see this is so much deeper than I actually ever thought it could have been.
00;34;32;12 - 00;34;53;26
Joshua Hoffert
And then you start reading about the hydrostatic union and you're going, Jesus assumed all of humanity into him. And now, by virtue of Him being fully God and fully man, humanity has been united once again with the Divine Godhead. And now you have a crisis, as you're saying. You know, it's just this beautiful, beautiful, beautiful thing. I came across this just recently.
00;34;53;26 - 00;35;11;29
Joshua Hoffert
I was thinking about it and looking at some notes. It's really interesting when John encounters the risen Lord in Revelation one, when Jesus comes in the midst of the golden lamb stamps, he sees, you know, the from the alpha and omega, the first and last of the death, accused the death hole in the grave, all that kind of stuff, Right.
00;35;12;01 - 00;35;36;02
Joshua Hoffert
It it John actually weaves in pictures from Isaiah 49 about the coming Messiah. He weaves in pictures from Daniel seven from Daniel ten. So what he's like, like sees the son of man. He says one like a son of man, and he describes them with a girded around the waist and all that. But he also describes him as the action of Days on the Throne, too, describes him as both, not just as one.
00;35;36;02 - 00;35;57;22
Joshua Hoffert
He uses both the analogies, and then he also describes him as the Messiah. From Isaiah 49 to the swords coming out of his mouth. And so you're like John, seeing the risen Jesus and he's seeing the Trinity. He's not seeing, well, here's the suffering one, right? He's seeing the full meal deal and and he's usually is pulling all these pictures from the Old Testament to say, look, he's all of it.
00;35;57;24 - 00;36;13;16
Joshua Hoffert
It's not he's not just one of it. He's not a third of it, you know, or two thirds of it or just kind of alluding to it or pointing to it. And it seems to me that contemporary theology is uncomfortable with that, uncomfortable with Jesus being the picture of the Father completely.
00;36;13;16 - 00;36;20;01
Steve Stewart
Attached to the while ago, I said evangelicalism is fundamentally not Trinitarian.
00;36;20;03 - 00;36;21;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yes, that's exactly true.
00;36;21;20 - 00;36;26;14
Steve Stewart
Exactly. But that's that's I just use different language to say the same thing.
00;36;26;16 - 00;36;31;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it's actually it's exactly true. I completely agree with you. It is fundamentally non Trinitarian.
00;36;31;13 - 00;37;02;13
Steve Stewart
And in terms of the humanity, the undivided, full humanity and full divinity of Christ, I worked harder on that chapter. It's chapter four. It's the first of two chapters on the Incarnation. But I worked really hard and went to some of my best theological friends. Because you're right, we do have trouble holding that together, but we're in good company, the early church.
00;37;02;16 - 00;37;39;29
Steve Stewart
But before the Council of Nicaea, where we got the Nicene Creed, it was a mess. And so it's not it's not obvious. So anyway, that's just another little thing. When that book comes out, if you go to chapter four, you'll see me trying to wrestle with these things and my approach to writing. And Mary and I talked about this briefly yesterday through all of the books has been I love theology and scholarship and academic, you know, all that stuff.
00;37;40;01 - 00;38;05;22
Steve Stewart
My approach is to take that and write it in language that the non theologian could say, Well, then I got it. So I don't always get it right, but that's what I'm trying to do. And when I'm writing on the Incarnation because it's deep, deep water, it's really the core issue on the Mystery of Christ, then that's what I'm trying to do.
00;38;05;25 - 00;38;17;01
Steve Stewart
So when the book comes out, people can go to chapter four to begin to look at some of what you're talking about. We've got a few more minutes, guys. What would you like.
00;38;17;04 - 00;38;21;04
Joshua Hoffert
Mary, You got last question.
00;38;21;07 - 00;38;24;02
Murray Dueck
Wow. In 4 minutes, I got a lot of questions.
00;38;24;04 - 00;38;25;22
Steve Stewart
More minutes. I didn't say 4 minutes.
00;38;25;23 - 00;38;44;28
Murray Dueck
Okay. Well, you know, I remember James Dobson, Focus on the Family. He quoted this sociological, logical experiment they did. And what they did is they for some reason, this psychologists and sociologists decided to go to an elementary school and pull the fence out from around the school.
00;38;45;01 - 00;38;46;11
Steve Stewart
I remember that study.
00;38;46;14 - 00;39;07;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And they thought, what's going to happen? The kids are going to wander around all over the neighborhood, right? And instead, the exact opposite happened that everybody huddled in the middle of the yard wouldn't even go close to where the fence used to be. And, you know, the reason I bring that up, I think evangelicalism in a way, is that's our fence and we don't want to move it because then what are we going to do?
00;39;07;13 - 00;39;17;02
Murray Dueck
And we put more trust in the fence than we actually have with the with with Jesus. Right. And do you want to say anything about that or am I just summing up what you've.
00;39;17;05 - 00;40;01;06
Steve Stewart
Seen a little bit of I'll say a little of this of I remember the study and it's and it's true. We deep in our bones, in our DNA, we do not like uncertainty in anything. We don't like uncertainty. And in evangelicalism because it doesn't have 2000 years of wrestling with all kinds of this stuff. And, you know, and all the the roots going deep, it has had to create a certainty, often through polemic, but but created this certainty that I think is more fragile.
00;40;01;06 - 00;40;13;23
Steve Stewart
And it's starting to come apart right? The I'm having a brain freeze the great movement right now.
00;40;13;26 - 00;40;15;29
Murray Dueck
Come on. But yeah.
00;40;16;02 - 00;40;17;17
Steve Stewart
Yeah.
00;40;17;19 - 00;40;20;15
Murray Dueck
Deconstructing deconstruction ism that's that's there you go.
00;40;20;21 - 00;40;40;28
Steve Stewart
To senior moment I would recommend to anybody who wants to read a superb book on this it came out last year. It's called Out of the Embers. Out of the Embers by my dear friend Dr. Bradley Dusek. And it is so helpful on this issue. Yeah.
00;40;41;00 - 00;40;53;28
Murray Dueck
You know, I don't know if any of you guys have read Dear Dostoevsky and The Brothers Karamazov, you know, but there's a short story in their book. But where is it? On your shelf, waiting to be recruited.
00;40;54;02 - 00;40;56;07
Steve Stewart
Somebody gave it to me. You'll love this.
00;40;56;19 - 00;40;59;02
Murray Dueck
a Father Mike, I think, reads that once a year. You know, it's.
00;40;59;02 - 00;41;04;01
Steve Stewart
Something you know, a lot of good Orthodox guys do, so they'll be friends.
00;41;04;03 - 00;41;22;25
Murray Dueck
I don't know if it's in there. It's in one of his stories where Jesus shows up during the Inquisition in Spain and they throw him in the prison and they're just mad as anything. And the jailer saying to him, Look what you left. You left us. And we've had a fix all of this and enforce all of this.
00;41;22;25 - 00;41;45;29
Murray Dueck
And if you hadn't left, we wouldn't be in this much trouble. And and and Jesus reaches over and kisses him, and he's so shocked. He doesn't say a word. He walks away, but he leaves the jail door open and and I think that's in some ways it sums up in the moment of the church we're in right now, we're trying to fix everything.
00;41;45;29 - 00;42;04;12
Murray Dueck
If we just came up with a better plan, or Jesus would just give us something to do, we're always having to try to fix it in his behalf. And when we slow down long enough and realize he just wants to kiss us, maybe we leave the door open just a bit to have a new experience with him, you know?
00;42;04;14 - 00;42;10;05
Murray Dueck
And I think you're one person, Jesus Christ, and you let him out. And this is where it went.
00;42;10;07 - 00;42;24;08
Steve Stewart
And who knows where it's going to keep going because this stuff, when I take my last breath, it doesn't. Then if I get hit by a bus, my life doesn't end. Then it just we get into.
00;42;24;10 - 00;42;25;18
Murray Dueck
What a beautiful thought.
00;42;25;21 - 00;42;27;24
Steve Stewart
And so I have one.
00;42;28;00 - 00;42;31;06
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe one last question. We can we can sit now.
00;42;31;06 - 00;42;31;26
Steve Stewart
You know, during the.
00;42;31;26 - 00;42;58;14
Joshua Hoffert
Postscript. I know. Exactly. So this is a good postscript question. Given all that we've said, talking about the the great impact of impact nations, the great impact of the gospel on Steve, seeing it, you know, blowing out that small version of the gospel measurably, how do you see a bigger version of the gospel impacting the actual on the ground work that you guys do?
00;42;58;17 - 00;43;01;19
Joshua Hoffert
How is it shifted or shifted?
00;43;01;22 - 00;43;03;01
Steve Stewart
And we wrestle with the.
00;43;03;01 - 00;43;03;21
Murray Dueck
Big question.
00;43;03;23 - 00;43;40;27
Steve Stewart
Or kind of our core team and then out to the next, we talk a lot about what is our gospel that that's the most frequent, biggest question for us. What is our goal now? And hammering it and hammering it because it's a journey. You like that word? I we absolutely do not preach a transactional gospel anymore. And I believe with all my heart that Colossians 115 to 20, the greatest Christological name in the Bible, is true, and that he's reconciled all things.
00;43;40;27 - 00;44;04;23
Steve Stewart
He's already done it. That's why, you know, when John 20 said it is finished, as you said, it is timeless. But anyway, that we're telling people we've got fantastic news for you, not if you will pray this prayer, then Jesus will come live in your heart. But guess what? He's already there. He's already always been there, always been there.
00;44;04;25 - 00;44;29;27
Steve Stewart
No matter who you are, he's he's. There's no place. He isn't a work. What metal knowing it doesn't mean crying at the altar. That can happen. It means realigning, reorienting yourself. We're giving you a good news. You're already with me. And as we begin to learn to recognize that. So that's. That's very clear way. That's change our gospel.
00;44;30;02 - 00;44;40;09
Steve Stewart
And you can probably guess, as I do a lot of work in the developing world with pastors, I'm I'm just about separating their head from their shoulders with that gospel.
00;44;40;13 - 00;44;41;18
Murray Dueck
No, I'm sure.
00;44;41;20 - 00;45;03;07
Steve Stewart
And got to do it next week. I'm going meet with several hundred and the one that's asked me to come. He's like a spiritual grandson, I guess. He says, I want you to come and give them that, take them deeper into Christ, because as deep as people are into Christ is. Did you know that he loved you so much that he died for you?
00;45;03;07 - 00;45;13;09
Steve Stewart
And then we get into the whole, you know, that the father put him on the cross? No, he didn't. People put him up in the cross.
00;45;13;12 - 00;45;27;05
Murray Dueck
That was another topic. I was going to bring that up. I'm like, because that's I mean, again, you know, if you don't divide, okay, you know, you can see where this goes. So we don't divide the Trinity. Then what's with that first, you know? my God, my God, why have you for? Well.
00;45;27;07 - 00;45;28;29
Steve Stewart
And you know the answer to that, don't you?
00;45;29;04 - 00;45;30;00
Murray Dueck
I do.
00;45;30;02 - 00;45;45;22
Steve Stewart
There's like an answer, one that's ID is feeling the sense of alienation and separation and not subversion. Alienation is a feeling. Separation is a reality. There's no separation. And number two is, of course, quoting. So I'm.
00;45;45;22 - 00;45;46;28
Murray Dueck
Telling you.
00;45;47;00 - 00;45;51;09
Steve Stewart
And then you get down to around verse 25 or so.
00;45;51;12 - 00;45;54;25
Murray Dueck
And it says, you have not left me, nor shall you ever.
00;45;54;28 - 00;46;19;14
Steve Stewart
Yes. Don't tell you ever. You know, it's like Habakkuk, is it? 113 you're too holy to look upon sin. The last evangelical church I was in, he started to preach up a storm, and I wanted to say, but there were 505,000 people there. I wanted to say, Excuse me, could you read the second half of the verse? You're too old to look upon it.
00;46;19;16 - 00;46;22;29
Steve Stewart
Therefore, why do you.
00;46;23;06 - 00;46;25;21
Murray Dueck
that's right. That's the second part of it or not.
00;46;27;08 - 00;46;34;12
Steve Stewart
so there you go. Really? I think. I think that's probably okay. Please, just stop. I'll be glad to meet with you guys sometime.
00;46;34;27 - 00;46;47;08
Murray Dueck
yeah, because it'll be wonderful. Yeah, we have really opened the can here that it would be great to empty it. Left your people out there. Their heads are like, my goodness, They're all talking to people. Saturday.
00;46;47;09 - 00;46;48;23
Steve Stewart
What did I do?
00;46;48;26 - 00;46;58;01
Murray Dueck
I think we got to get their voices back down. We got to do something. So that's brilliant. It's so good. Yes, absolutely. Let's do it again at some point.
00;46;58;03 - 00;47;39;27
Steve Stewart
Impact Nations dot com. Yeah there's there's eight seasons of podcasts if nothing else really good to help you get to sleep at night There's what's going on around the world there's the books and the e-books and and pretty soon we're going to have it ready with Amazon for a preorder, you know, pursuing the mystery of Christ. And of all the I've written and I love to write, I've never remotely been as excited as I am about this one.
00;47;40;00 - 00;47;42;26
Murray Dueck
Well, and it came out today, which is brilliant.
00;47;42;28 - 00;47;44;01
Steve Stewart
No, it didn't.
00;47;44;04 - 00;47;46;01
Murray Dueck
No, I mean not your excitement came out.
00;47;46;03 - 00;47;46;18
Steve Stewart
Almost.
00;47;46;20 - 00;47;47;15
Joshua Hoffert
Like title.
00;47;47;17 - 00;47;50;02
Murray Dueck
You got in the zone there on this topic. You can.
00;47;50;02 - 00;47;51;20
Steve Stewart
Go look if you go the.
00;47;51;20 - 00;47;52;15
Murray Dueck
Book of books.
00;47;52;17 - 00;47;54;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Still to come. But the excitement is there.
00;47;54;29 - 00;47;59;12
Steve Stewart
The hope, the open announcement soon. Very good.
00;47;59;15 - 00;48;24;12
Joshua Hoffert
And and we'll make sure there's links in the in the description of the episode to all those things so that people can easily get there and yeah and we'd encourage all of our listeners for sure check out the website, check out the resources, the videos and the books. And, and I got about a third of the way through your book as I was navigating that in homeschool, preparing for our time together and just going, I like this guy.
00;48;24;15 - 00;48;37;20
Joshua Hoffert
And so I'm looking forward to more conversations in the future. And that those of you that are listening that you'll go, Hey, I like this guy, and maybe you'll end up with Steve on the missions field sometime on the journey, and.
00;48;37;20 - 00;48;50;19
Murray Dueck
You will see people heal in that presence right wide open. Deaf ears and blind eyes will see all thinking this way. How do you put that all together? Wow, Almost 30 to even experience that. So please do it, everybody.
00;48;50;22 - 00;48;54;03
Joshua Hoffert
All right. Christianity is still alive.
00;48;54;05 - 00;48;54;24
Steve Stewart
You bet it.
00;48;54;24 - 00;48;57;23
Joshua Hoffert
Is. Yeah, that's right. Okay. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Steve.
00;48;57;26 - 00;48;58;16
Steve Stewart
It's good.
00;48;58;18 - 00;49;23;22
Joshua Hoffert
Time. I bless you. I.