In the 4th century, Bishop Nonnus was asked why, when a beautiful woman passed him by, he stood and stared while the other bishops looked away. Nonnus' answer provides us insight as we dive deeper and deeper in the mystery of bridal intimacy and covenant union with God (the mysterious one). Tune in to this episode of "Voices from the Desert" as we dive into the ramfications of Nonnus' observation and what it means as we explore the mystical literature of Christianity!
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
In the 4th century, Bishop Nonnus was asked why, when a beautiful woman passed him by, he stood and stared while the other bishops looked away. Nonnus' answer provides us insight as we dive deeper and deeper in the mystery of bridal intimacy and covenant union with God (the mysterious one). Tune in to this episode of "Voices from the Desert" as we dive into the ramfications of Nonnus' observation and what it means as we explore the mystical literature of Christianity!
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
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Joshua Hoffert
Over here. Right. Right. And so I'm pretty sure what he's extrapolating on is that time passes because creation resides in God's consciously aware.
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Murray Dueck
Oh, wow. Okay. That hurts the brain.
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Joshua Hoffert
Hello, everybody. And welcome to another episode of actually. You know what, Murray? Right off the bat, we just have to say we really don't know what we're talking about.
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Murray Dueck
Really? Start right there. You know.
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Joshua Hoffert
We just don't know what we're talking about. That's. That is. We're like. Like. It's funny, you know, before I can even get out the voices of the desert.
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Murray Dueck
We need a quote from Dumb and Dumber, right? Yeah.
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Joshua Hoffert
We need a quote from Dumb and Dumber or something, because it's like we're talking about these heady theological things and really, Murray and I just have to let you, the listener, know we we're really don't know what you're talking about.
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Murray Dueck
We might have, you know, enough to know the real funny, but we you know, it's kind of like I got to look through a keyhole a couple of times and. Yeah, yeah.
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Joshua Hoffert
That's a great that's a good one. Yes. That's right. You got to. We got to look through a keyhole. So before so this is the Asterix before we've even done the introduction. Yeah.
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Murray Dueck
Let's do it. That right. Like so then we so different people will go wow, that's different. It'll pass. Like I'm up.
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Joshua Hoffert
This is the recording right now. So the Murray thinks oh not actually. Oh he's like.
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Murray Dueck
Sneaky this.
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Joshua Hoffert
Very sneaky.
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Murray Dueck
That's I say something about Dumb and Dumber thinking. Yes.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yes that's that is not well you know it's a we'll be dumb and dumber or there was what there was a cool and then a.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah, there was a.
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Joshua Hoffert
There was a third of us.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah. So everybody hey, thanks for joining us.
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Joshua Hoffert
Welcome to voices from the desert desert Desert, the podcast of two guys who know nothing.
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Murray Dueck
Nothing.
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Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Actually, there's a.
00;02;32;29 - 00;02;36;07
Murray Dueck
Comparison to the vastness of the gun.
00;02;36;20 - 00;02;53;27
Joshua Hoffert
exactly. Yes. There's a, there's a great, story in the Desert Fathers where Anthony Anthony is asking his disciples about a particular passage in Scripture, and it goes down the line. What does this one mean? What does it mean? What does it mean? What does it mean? All the disciples are giving their, you know, profound, lofty interpretation.
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Murray Dueck
And he goes, yeah, you don't have it yet.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And he goes, you don't have it, you don't have it, you don't have it. No, no, no. And then he gets to it's either Pullman or Pombo. It's one of the guys who became a great leader after Anthony. And he says, what is this passage mean? And and the Pullman or Palmer, whichever one it is says, I don't know.
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Joshua Hoffert
And Anthony goes, you have begun to interpret the scriptures.
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Murray Dueck
Yes.
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Joshua Hoffert
Right. so that's.
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Murray Dueck
That's our.
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Joshua Hoffert
Disclaimer.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah. People are like, what? Like, but I've got a doctorate degree. What do you mean?
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Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Yeah. Well, that's a crazy. You have a master's degree, right? This is the crazy thing about today is it's like. It's like we want to pretend that we are experts and know everything. I was listening to a guy talk, just a it was a brief clip, and it was a really fascinating concept because he was saying, like, if you if I was to ask you, if if every single belief that you have is true, you would probably say, oh, I don't know.
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Joshua Hoffert
You know, you'd be really hard pressed to say everything I believe is true. You would probably go, you know, I there's probably things I believe that aren't true. Right? I mean, we all discover that. Right? But then if I was.
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Murray Dueck
You have discover that.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. But then if I was to ask you about each one of your beliefs, you would say, well, yeah, that's true. I believe that's true. Yeah, I believe that's true. Yeah, I believe that's true. So if I ask you about the general ness of all of your beliefs, you would admit probably some of them are true. But if I ask you about every one of your specific beliefs, you would say, well, no, that one's true.
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Joshua Hoffert
So where are you going to admit that one's not true? It was a really.
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Murray Dueck
That's tough.
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Joshua Hoffert
It was a really fascinating thought experiment. Right. Because today in contemporary Christianity, we've got a lot of people claiming to be experts on the Bible. And we have a lot of people claiming to be experts on theology. And then but when we look at the history of it, we have a lot of people claiming, I didn't. I don't actually know enough to even be an expert on this topic.
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Joshua Hoffert
And they became the experts that everybody went to.
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Murray Dueck
So who was it? One of the Desert fathers. He's getting ready to go. He's going to pass on God's told on the date. And his disciples, you know, they're all getting ready. And he goes, you know, bring me the communion elements. You know, I want to repent. And they go, father, you have no more need to repent. You're almost home.
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Murray Dueck
He goes, I have not yet begun to repent.
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Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah. That's right. yeah. I think it might have been Rumbo.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah, maybe that's why.
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Joshua Hoffert
It was one of those. Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I know which one you're talking about. Yeah. And or there's another one that it might have been destroyed. There's anyway. It's it is. I have not even but the some of them would say things like I have not even begun to start to pray.
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Murray Dueck
Yes.
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Joshua Hoffert
At the end of their life. That's a, that's a common refrain in the contemplative literature, especially in the Desert Fathers in the desert Mothers. And we live in an age today where we're trying to convince everybody we know everything. But the earliest Christians were trying to convince everybody, well, actually, we don't know. And we're trying to figure and work this out.
00;05;57;04 - 00;06;12;05
Murray Dueck
We're on the way. And why everybody why Christianity was originally called the way. Because it was. That's right. A, a journey of becoming, a journey of change, of journey of of we were unveiled faces. Behold his glory. And, you know, the church had terms for this.
00;06;12;08 - 00;06;15;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Not to say. Oh, okay. We all should.
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Murray Dueck
Clear.
00;06;16;03 - 00;06;30;17
Joshua Hoffert
It's, Yeah, it does. Let's clarify a little bit, because when we get down to some of the great arguments of the theological controversies of the early church, right. Cyril of Alexandria is not admitting to Nestorius that he doesn't know. Yes, the hyper.
00;06;30;23 - 00;06;32;02
Murray Dueck
That's why there are council.
00;06;32;08 - 00;06;48;27
Joshua Hoffert
That's why there's councils. He's not he's not admitting it. And neither is Nestorius. They're just arguing back and forth. So when you see the argument in the, that led to the Council of Chalcedon. not that they were. They were dead by the time the Council of Chalcedon came, but they were the catalyst for that argument right there.
00;06;48;27 - 00;07;31;02
Joshua Hoffert
They they are, these guys are two guys who we want to pretend Cyril of Alexandria because he's a saint. We want to pretend that he's humble and he's great and everything, but man, the guy comes across as pretty. Frightfully arrogant. Yes, and so does Nestorius right there. They just took issue with each other's language. So we're not saying that every one of those figures in church history, we're like, I'm humble and I don't know, but there's some incredible refrains there that we find in church history where that's the that's the demarcation of spiritual maturity is not a claim to have all knowledge versus today, where, you know, people claim PhD and Masters and
00;07;31;02 - 00;07;34;09
Joshua Hoffert
all this makes us we know all the stuff about Scripture.
00;07;34;11 - 00;07;36;08
Murray Dueck
So I've written the book on it.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Yeah.
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Murray Dueck
So you know everyone it's it's quite interesting like like, like with scholasticism that came out of the Catholic Church in like ten hundreds, 1100s. You know, you have this really big argument developing between the, you know, the Catholic and the Orthodox. You can look this up online between, Barnum and and Pella, mass. And, and, you know, I'd like to hear Catholics view of this, actually.
00;08;00;06 - 00;08;18;00
Murray Dueck
But but, you know, Barnum was saying God is unknowable. You can't know him. What you're calling the grace or presence of God. It's not God. It's an emanation from God. Because you can't know God because and and, you know, and so the Orthodox guys would say or that, you know, would say, well, no, I mean, you put a sword into fire.
00;08;18;00 - 00;08;45;08
Murray Dueck
The sword doesn't become fire, but it takes on the characteristics of fire. It glows, it gets warm, there's heat and the presence of God. It is the presence of God. And it affects us. Right. And and you know, these guys we're talking about as charismatics, they fought the way for us. And, you know, I think we forget that that, you know, we're talking about very charismatic people, but they're saying this God is, you know, reality is inside of God.
00;08;45;11 - 00;09;00;17
Murray Dueck
You know, God is not outside of reality looking at it. I mean, you know, you'll see these icons of the Virgin Mary with with Jesus in her womb and then the universe inside Jesus. Yeah. And then you gotta figure out what that that means, right? It's like, oh, goodness.
00;09;00;23 - 00;09;01;04
Joshua Hoffert
There's.
00;09;01;04 - 00;09;03;17
Murray Dueck
Augustine's brain. No, that.
00;09;03;26 - 00;09;24;02
Joshua Hoffert
Augustine had this concept and I if I, I'll probably butchered a little bit, but I'm pretty sure it was in his confessions. And, but I couldn't point to exactly where it is. But he talked about the nature of time and and one of the things he said. And this is how I understood it. So anybody that's an Augustinian scholar, if our friend Matt Esquivel is.
00;09;24;08 - 00;09;24;26
Murray Dueck
Listening.
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Joshua Hoffert
Listening, please don't please don't take don't.
00;09;27;11 - 00;09;27;29
Murray Dueck
Call us.
00;09;28;05 - 00;09;45;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You can no, please correct me if I'm wrong, but let's do it later. Yeah. That's right, because I, I, I think this is what I understood. Augustine saying Augustine is difficult to understand too. You know, it's looking through the keyhole thing, like Mary was saying, we haven't done the coyote. How, by the way. so.
00;09;45;29 - 00;09;53;18
Murray Dueck
Oh, there you go. You got to get it in. We don't break our street. It's like, you know, suddenly it's like you've only been this one day streak.
00;09;53;21 - 00;09;57;14
Joshua Hoffert
You know, I was watching. I watched the movie hook with my kids last night.
00;09;57;14 - 00;09;58;09
Murray Dueck
Oh, brilliant.
00;09;58;11 - 00;10;30;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Brilliant movie. So now, they're. Robin Williams characterizes Peter Pan when he can finally, Crow with the rest of the lost kids. Right. The banger. Yeah. And and cuckoo is like our Howell. So that's what I've been doing with the kids now. Anyway, Augustine time. He talks about how the, what marks the, passage of time is not time itself, but is conscious awareness of time passing.
00;10;30;04 - 00;10;53;16
Joshua Hoffert
And so it says a tree isn't aware that time has passed to a tree. Every moment is just present. There's no memory, right? And even any of you can even make the case for, some of the higher forms of consciousness in the animal kingdom aren't really aware that time has passed. You're like, we have a a, chocolate lab.
00;10;53;18 - 00;11;14;13
Joshua Hoffert
Our chocolate lab lives in the moment. Our chocolate lab may have learned certain lessons, but that's only because they're. The body of the lab has been trained, and he's not thinking back over his vast resources of memory and thinking to the time that thing happened five years ago, or two years always or two years old, right. His he's not consciously aware of time passing.
00;11;14;13 - 00;11;21;13
Joshua Hoffert
He's always present in the moment. He just knows is what he needs. It's his appetite, right. Like this. The peacock in the background by.
00;11;21;16 - 00;11;23;01
Murray Dueck
No, it's the sheep.
00;11;23;03 - 00;11;23;18
Joshua Hoffert
Or the sheep.
00;11;23;18 - 00;11;46;12
Murray Dueck
And I have, I rescued lamb and he was rejected by his, his mum. And so before he joins the tribe, he has to be, fixed, and he's got to get his vaccines, and he has to be born with it. So. Right. He believes he kind of seems to know the passage of time because in, in, 25 minutes, he's like, you better give me that bottle.
00;11;46;12 - 00;11;49;02
Murray Dueck
That's easy. Right? What? He's mad about it. Yeah.
00;11;49;04 - 00;12;04;11
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. But again, he's he's not his. He is aware of his need for food. Right. Is presently aware that he needs something to eat and wants something to eat. So he's living in the present. So even even that, even as we go on the scale of consciousness. Right?
00;12;04;11 - 00;12;05;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Oh for sure.
00;12;05;17 - 00;12;28;20
Joshua Hoffert
Animals don't really live in the past. They live in the present. And, human beings are the only I mean, if you if you if you really, like, show me another animal that has a depth of conscious awareness that humanity does and an awareness of history and memory as humanity does, and outside of maybe an alien civilization that we don't know about.
00;12;28;20 - 00;12;29;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah. We don't. Yeah.
00;12;29;16 - 00;12;39;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right. and so Augustine's point was that time is only perceived as passing because we're aware of previous moments.
00;12;39;16 - 00;12;40;18
Murray Dueck
Oh very interesting.
00;12;40;20 - 00;12;54;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And so I'm pretty sure what he's extrapolating on is that time only quote unquote passes because creation resides within God, who is consciously aware.
00;12;54;14 - 00;12;56;19
Murray Dueck
Oh wow. Okay. That hurts the brain.
00;12;56;26 - 00;13;19;21
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. So I'm pretty sure that's what Augustine's trying to work out in his confessions. Later in his confessions. Now an Augustinian scholar might be able to correct me on that. Or maybe I'm making a couple conclusions about his observations on the nature of time. But time is not so. His point. I think his point is that time isn't an entity, imposing its will on creation.
00;13;19;24 - 00;13;30;19
Joshua Hoffert
It's the byproduct of God's conscious awareness of creation and the movements of creation. Because creation exists within him. Wow. Okay, so that's something that'll get people thinking.
00;13;31;08 - 00;13;34;26
Murray Dueck
well, I'll throw out one too, just because, you know, because on podcasts you can do this.
00;13;34;26 - 00;13;39;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, well, time seems to exert itself upon us. And his point is, well, not really.
00;13;39;03 - 00;13;54;19
Murray Dueck
It it's quite fascinating because like, I, you know, my brain, I'm trying to call bull back which book I read, this and that, which is horrible that I can't. But, Oh, maybe it was Steve Stewart's new book on the mystical. Yes, it was crazy back.
00;13;54;25 - 00;13;59;25
Joshua Hoffert
So for everybody, call back. Go. I think I knocked my microphone. So I hope everything's still working.
00;14;00;06 - 00;14;00;26
Murray Dueck
can you hear me?
00;14;00;28 - 00;14;03;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, I can hear you. Okay, so you can hear me. So, Yeah.
00;14;03;14 - 00;14;03;24
Murray Dueck
We're good.
00;14;04;01 - 00;14;09;12
Joshua Hoffert
Call back to the interviews we did with Steve Stewart a couple weeks ago. You can go back. Look at those.
00;14;09;14 - 00;14;29;11
Murray Dueck
There's a quote in his book. Brilliant book. It's just coming out. Everybody, you can look it up. Really worth your time. And very much in line with what we're talking about. But. But he quotes this one guy, one theologian who says he thinks and he's got some God, some, you know, we're talking about time in our time works because God is outside of time.
00;14;29;13 - 00;14;56;17
Murray Dueck
He believed this guy that when Jesus sees Elijah and Moses on the mountain, what's actually happening there? It's not that they're they're dead on the other side, that what's happening because God is out of sight outside of time, and they're in the presence of God when they're on Mount Horeb in their time periods that the three of them are actually meeting in the moment with Jesus.
00;14;56;17 - 00;14;57;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;14;57;04 - 00;15;10;15
Murray Dueck
When they're all on their mountain, because they're all suddenly outside of time in the presence of God, even though they're on different locations in different time periods. Suddenly they're together outside of time, right? And it's all happening then.
00;15;10;17 - 00;15;11;24
Joshua Hoffert
That makes sense to me.
00;15;11;27 - 00;15;12;07
Murray Dueck
Does it.
00;15;12;07 - 00;15;13;21
Joshua Hoffert
For some. Yeah. For some reason it makes.
00;15;13;21 - 00;15;15;03
Murray Dueck
You need counseling, man. Yeah.
00;15;15;03 - 00;15;16;05
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
00;15;16;08 - 00;15;17;06
Murray Dueck
But yeah, they're.
00;15;17;09 - 00;15;42;29
Joshua Hoffert
The places and times are superimposed upon each other right there with their, with the timeless one. And they see they see a picture of his divinity in, in, the uncreated light right on top of the mountain. And they're stunned. this is like. Like how? I don't know, for instance, how else they've got. No, look, there's no photographic evidence back then.
00;15;43;02 - 00;15;46;11
Joshua Hoffert
So how do they know this is Moses and Elijah?
00;15;46;13 - 00;15;47;11
Murray Dueck
Oh. Very interesting.
00;15;47;16 - 00;16;07;07
Joshua Hoffert
Well, like how? Like they they know it, but they have to know it supernaturally. They have to know it. So there's got to be something beyond just the physical happening in front of them. Yeah. And this overlapping of, of space time presence and all that kind of stuff for them to go, Moses and Elijah right there with us, you're like, well, how do you know?
00;16;07;07 - 00;16;21;14
Joshua Hoffert
Like you don't have a visible visual representation of him. And, and and Scripture doesn't even really explain what like it doesn't it doesn't give a description of what Elijah looked like, not explicitly or Moses, you know, that you would be able.
00;16;21;16 - 00;16;22;00
Murray Dueck
To.
00;16;22;02 - 00;16;28;11
Joshua Hoffert
Recreate him by a, you know, by a sketch artist or something, right? So how do they know?
00;16;28;13 - 00;16;37;22
Murray Dueck
And you know, it. Yeah, because you're right. I always thought, well, maybe Jesus told them that's possible, but doesn't tell the passage they're they're figuring it out in the moment.
00;16;37;22 - 00;16;59;08
Joshua Hoffert
It seems like it. Yeah, sure looks like it didn't. There's no record where it says Jesus said, hey, guys, this is meet Moses, Moses, meet Peter, James and John. Right? Hey, Elijah, you know, meet Peter, James and John, right? There's no formal introduction. Maybe that happened, but it it seems like they kind of just recognize what's happening in the moment.
00;16;59;08 - 00;17;02;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's that's way more what the, the.
00;17;02;03 - 00;17;10;10
Murray Dueck
And everybody you know it's it's again you know, you gotta interpret it to you know Elijah that you know they still set a table for the.
00;17;10;12 - 00;17;13;05
Joshua Hoffert
Oh we've got the the sheep is attacking Mary now.
00;17;13;28 - 00;17;21;13
Murray Dueck
sorry. He's like totally dreaded, but, do we move it out? But, you know, he's got a terrible twos right now.
00;17;21;13 - 00;17;26;20
Joshua Hoffert
He, voices from the desert is always a, an interesting journey for us.
00;17;26;22 - 00;17;30;20
Murray Dueck
I wish we had video because you guys would like. This is sheep. It's totally trying to headbutt me.
00;17;30;20 - 00;17;32;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. That's right, you guys.
00;17;35;10 - 00;17;50;22
Murray Dueck
you. So, Elijah, chief of the prophets. And then Moses, the law both finding culmination in Christ. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. There's this moment of what does it mean, right? It's, you know, one of the things I thought the Lord said to me once, speaking of time. And this will all get us back to where we need to go, and.
00;17;50;22 - 00;18;08;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah, but it's it's good for us to think about the bigness of God and being in awe. And this really does do that. I was, I was, we do a ministry time in Sammy's mantle called Ancient Wells, where we're where we ask the Lord to go back to the last place in your family line. The gifting functioned as it should, and bring it forward.
00;18;08;26 - 00;18;22;27
Murray Dueck
Because what you realize God's outside of time, you can do that. So when when the Lord was talking to me about that, he says it just it just revealed this to me. So it goes with John. Do you believe the book of revelation? This is kind of how the inner conversation went is about the end times. Well, yes, I do.
00;18;23;00 - 00;18;29;18
Murray Dueck
And so when John was in rapture and he's in heaven, he's in heaven in the last days.
00;18;29;20 - 00;18;30;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;18;30;07 - 00;18;51;14
Murray Dueck
I guess so. Okay. So then who are the 24 elders? I'm like, okay, 12 of them got to be the apostles, you know, 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Right? So, so, so John then is looking at Peter, James and John. So he's seeing himself as dead for 2000 years. I'm like, yeah, I guess so.
00;18;51;14 - 00;19;00;07
Murray Dueck
And and the Lord goes, what if the elder that walked up to John and says, do you understand these things was actually himself?
00;19;00;09 - 00;19;01;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. That's right.
00;19;01;14 - 00;19;04;01
Murray Dueck
So much did, you know, 12 years?
00;19;04;05 - 00;19;05;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. It's possible.
00;19;05;22 - 00;19;10;11
Murray Dueck
Like my brother. Okay time. I Alpha and the Omega, it's all like.
00;19;10;15 - 00;19;19;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right. We could, we could. There's there's, Yeah. You know, I'll just say this and we'll get to we'll get to our topic.
00;19;19;25 - 00;19;24;10
Murray Dueck
We'll segue it back. We'll get back. Yeah. We're not that far off the train track yet.
00;19;25;07 - 00;19;49;21
Joshua Hoffert
the the word for truth in the Hebrew, in, in the Hebrew, language is the word emet. I don't I'm not exactly sure that's how you say it, but, the the word is, but the word is three letters, and it's comprised of the alef and the Tov, which are the first and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet.
00;19;49;23 - 00;20;08;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And the and then the, the third letter, the. So that's the first and last letter of the word for truth. And the third letter is the letter in the middle, and it's the middle letter of the Hebrew alphabet. So the word for truth is the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet, the middle letter of the Hebrew alphabet, and the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet.
00;20;08;09 - 00;20;18;03
Joshua Hoffert
And truth was seen as all encompassing. And Jesus being so when he says, I'm the Alpha and the Omega, right? I'm the Alpha in the top Torv. I'm the way, the truth, and the life.
00;20;18;12 - 00;20;19;27
Murray Dueck
that's all I am.
00;20;19;27 - 00;20;37;14
Joshua Hoffert
All of reality, all of time and everything summed up into one being is essentially what the the some of the mystics would have said Jesus was implying there. Anyway, it's really interesting stuff. So yeah. so we're we're still on this idea of bride, the bridal paradigm.
00;20;37;14 - 00;20;59;14
Murray Dueck
In and, you know, maybe I'll just say this. I threw it out. Yeah. Yeah. What the reason kind of why we're, we're talking about this or or even with this way is just the sense of of the nature. That's right. God. That's right. It doesn't just stir the mind. It stirs the heart. It serves the the inner man to want to know him more.
00;20;59;16 - 00;21;23;18
Murray Dueck
And, you know, we're wired to be an all we're made to be in, and then see, the thing is, and I'll just throw this too and, you know, reading some stuff of the Desert Fathers and, this very interesting book called, Orthodox Psychotherapy. but but he says, you know, the brain really is a calculating machine, and it lives in the past and it lives in the future.
00;21;23;20 - 00;21;44;04
Murray Dueck
Mainly that's what it does thinks about. And if you let's say you go to an airport and there's like a thousand people there, go there and try not to categorize people. Try not to do it. Your brain will. But how you get into your heart and this is bridal intimacy, is you start to think about things that cause you to be in awe.
00;21;44;06 - 00;21;48;17
Murray Dueck
And you'll notice your brain actually stops for a second and goes, wow.
00;21;48;20 - 00;21;49;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right?
00;21;49;15 - 00;21;51;04
Murray Dueck
And that just happened. We just.
00;21;51;04 - 00;21;57;08
Joshua Hoffert
Did. Yeah. Like you see like you see like I'm thinking with that particular example, you see a giant airplane.
00;21;57;11 - 00;21;58;03
Murray Dueck
00;21;58;06 - 00;22;13;10
Joshua Hoffert
Right on the tarmac and you're looking out at the runway and you, and you forget that the people are around you. Right. And all you can see is this enormous machine and it's like wow that's incredible. Yeah.
00;22;13;13 - 00;22;34;20
Murray Dueck
Or the earrings. Right. Or the eclipse or which is a great example because. Yeah. Because again it could draw you into, which brings you into your heart. Or you could go, what does this mean about the end times and going over this city. Right? Nineveh. I mean, which part if you think about head and heart, which part is drawing you into into bridal intimacy?
00;22;34;20 - 00;22;45;04
Murray Dueck
Well, it's obviously the heart part, right? Yeah. And so what we're talking about today really is how to continually to cultivate that, or how the Desert Fathers cultivated that.
00;22;45;04 - 00;22;45;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.
00;22;45;19 - 00;22;48;04
Murray Dueck
And so and so we're still on track.
00;22;48;04 - 00;22;58;05
Joshua Hoffert
It's just to get us to get us even further on there. It's, you know, it's the it's the eclipse, it's the plane or it's Pileggi of the harlot. And, this is.
00;22;58;06 - 00;23;00;12
Murray Dueck
Yes, read that story. Oh. It's perfect.
00;23;00;15 - 00;23;25;17
Joshua Hoffert
So there's this story in the about the fourth and fourth, fifth century of a group of bishops that were having, I want to say they call it a conclave. There's a group of bishops holding a meeting. I can't remember what they called it. Exactly. and, they are, there's a woman that comes down the road with her cavalcade of servants and suitors.
00;23;25;20 - 00;23;37;00
Joshua Hoffert
And her name, her name is actually lost a history. She was known as Pileggi, because that was your adopted Christian name. but Pileggi, was the woman, and she was.
00;23;37;00 - 00;23;38;17
Murray Dueck
Carried on a litter full of.
00;23;38;20 - 00;23;39;17
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly.
00;23;39;20 - 00;23;40;18
Murray Dueck
Still. Yes.
00;23;40;22 - 00;24;13;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, she is. She's a an actress slash dancer slash famous woman for her beauty. You know, think of, Marilyn Monroe and how Marilyn Monroe defined sex appeal in her. In her time. Or, maybe someone like, Angelina Jolie was the kind of the sex symbol, right? Or whatever. You know, any any number of of, iconic women that were, were known for their beauty.
00;24;13;10 - 00;24;34;12
Joshua Hoffert
not that these women weren't also known for their talent and their skill and everything. I'm not saying that. I'm just that that was one of the things Pele was revered for was her beauty. She was also an incredibly skilled actress and dancer, and all of the bishops are ashamed to see a woman in such a and turn their gaze away from her, except for notice.
00;24;34;12 - 00;25;04;22
Joshua Hoffert
Who's the most well respected bishop there? He's captivated by her beauty, and it's like, that's not okay. Notice you're not supposed to gaze at this woman. You know, you're supposed to piously look down and not look at look her in the eyes and it says. It says literally. And as the story's rendered, it says, Notice gazed after her very intently for a long space of time and says, after she had gone by, he turned around and still gazed after her.
00;25;04;24 - 00;25;27;04
Joshua Hoffert
And, Then he humbly turned towards a bishop sitting around him and said, were you night delighted by such great beauty? Right? All the bishops turned their gaze down, and were ashamed to look right. Were you not so delighted by such great beauty? And, then he poses this question to the group of bishops there, and he says, what do you think, beloved brothers?
00;25;27;04 - 00;25;48;27
Joshua Hoffert
How many hours does this woman spend in her chamber, giving all her mind and attention to adorning herself for the play in order to lack nothing and beauty and adornment of the body? She wants to please all those who see her, lest those who are her lovers today find her ugly and do not come back tomorrow. And and so you can maybe you can kind of guess where he's going with this, right?
00;25;48;27 - 00;25;49;16
Murray Dueck
Yes.
00;25;49;19 - 00;26;11;02
Joshua Hoffert
And then he says this, here we are, who have an almighty father in heaven offering us heavenly gifts and rewards. Our immortal bridegroom who promises good things to his watchmen, things that cannot be valued, which is not seen nor ear has heard, nor is it entered into the heart of man to know what God has prepared for those who love him.
00;26;11;04 - 00;26;32;18
Joshua Hoffert
What else can I say when we have such promises, when we're going to see the great and glorious face of our bridegroom, which has a beauty beyond compare, upon which the cherubim do not even dare to glare, to gaze. Why do we not adorn ourselves and wash the dirt from our unhappy souls? Why do we let ourselves lie so neglected?
00;26;32;21 - 00;26;59;21
Joshua Hoffert
Wow, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful and and I love, I love the story of known. Right? And and so, as the story goes, Pelagius believe Jesus actually has a, an encounter with the Holy Spirit and, you know, encounter being our charismatic language. He has an encounter with the Holy Spirit. Bishop has a dream. Bishop notice has a dream about her coming into the church so that he doesn't reject her when she comes.
00;26;59;21 - 00;27;01;00
Murray Dueck
And she does. Do you come to church?
00;27;01;01 - 00;27;24;00
Joshua Hoffert
She does. She comes just like the dream actually has a dream. A dove comes in, covered in soot, kind of dirty and everything. And, but he knows he just needs a dove and just needs to be washed off. And so he he commits you to the care of some of the virgins and the widows and, and then plague actually flees the city and ends up being adopting the, she becomes known as plagues.
00;27;24;02 - 00;27;48;07
Joshua Hoffert
And when she, lives as a desert hermit in a cell where she doesn't entertain visitors outside of being allowed to stand outside of the door. And, And so she's a well respected desert monk, and nobody knows that she's a woman until she dies. And you are known as is the only one who knows her secret. And it's huge, huge for funeral service for her.
00;27;48;07 - 00;28;10;28
Joshua Hoffert
But but when he sees her and thinks she spent so much time adorning herself, for those who would be her lovers, that we have the ultimate lover and we can't even spend the same amount of time or effort on ourselves. We get so caught up in busyness, but we look at her and she's so much more dedicated to her lovers than we are to ours, and we have even more to compare it to.
00;28;11;00 - 00;28;33;07
Joshua Hoffert
Right? This is, this is. He's not caught by her beauty. He's actually not. He's caught by the beauty of God. And this is again, we're talking bridal paradigm, right? He's caught up in contemplating the beauty of God. And that's because that's what he says, right? He says we have a father in heaven offering us almighty gifts or heavenly gifts and rewards.
00;28;33;09 - 00;28;52;19
Joshua Hoffert
Who promises good things and that? And when we see the bridegroom, that when we see the the glorious face of our bridegroom, which has beauty beyond compare, he's caught up in her in the beauty of God. And he's been so impacted by the the tangible revelation of who God is that he's going, we know everything's got to change for us.
00;28;52;26 - 00;29;00;07
Joshua Hoffert
And and it's our, our. And we're going to talk about this a bit later in the episode. But but his whole point is prepare yourself for him.
00;29;00;09 - 00;29;35;24
Murray Dueck
And that that's a big word that that everybody that we have to understand the difference between, maybe how we are living Christianity today and how well the Eastern Church, I would I know they still do this, but, you know, we're talking about working out your salvation in fear and trembling as as you know, Paul the Apostle would say, yes, not that I've already attained it, but I press forward to the goal that that that there's a preparation for this, bridal banquet that that is happening and, you know, and that that's what he's alluding to here as she prepared her, her physical body.
00;29;35;24 - 00;29;40;22
Murray Dueck
So must we as group Christians, prepare our souls and why?
00;29;40;24 - 00;29;41;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;29;41;04 - 00;29;51;10
Murray Dueck
And and, and that's a question that we want to we want to answer. That's how they're thinking, you know, and and maybe I'll just read this quote from Saint Simeon then, because it did fit right here.
00;29;51;12 - 00;29;52;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, go for it.
00;29;52;03 - 00;29;54;28
Murray Dueck
And, so here's Saint Tim in The New Theologian. You read about.
00;29;55;00 - 00;29;57;19
Joshua Hoffert
1111 12th century, right? 1112 century.
00;29;57;22 - 00;30;00;14
Murray Dueck
And in there, you know, 1088 ten something.
00;30;00;16 - 00;30;02;11
Joshua Hoffert
There we go. Yeah. Somewhere in there. Yeah.
00;30;02;13 - 00;30;22;27
Murray Dueck
Okay. So, and just to hear this in regards what just a shared, about about the, the bride and the bridegroom, and I'll, I'll read a little bit just, just again so we can get it into our heads because we're going to go back to, eros maniacs at some point here at, you know, you know, this goes somewhere and you're like, what?
00;30;22;27 - 00;30;48;06
Murray Dueck
See, last episode, the grace of the All Holy Spirit is given as a pledge to the souls betrothed to Christ. when a young girl has no pledge. So think, engagement ring. She has no guarantee that her marriage to her fiancé will really take place. And it's just the same for the soul. If it does not receive the pledge of his grace or does not possess him intuitively within her.
00;30;48;08 - 00;31;12;28
Murray Dueck
So, in other words, we're talking about a faith experience here, right? Yeah. Okay. So and we charismatics would go, yeah, I get that. And that's why I think that, you know, we can resonate with this material, you know, well, it will then have no firm guarantee that it will be eternally united with its master and God or or that it will be mystically ineffably joined to him, or that it will joy and his inaccessible beauty.
00;31;13;04 - 00;31;21;03
Murray Dueck
So, you know, for that. This is why I like the Passion Translation. And I'm just going to read First Corinthians or sorry, Ephesians 117 in here.
00;31;21;03 - 00;31;36;00
Joshua Hoffert
And and for those while you're doing that, for those biblical purists out there, we're not saying the Passion translation is a perfect translation. Yeah, we're not saying the new King James Version is a perfect translation. We compare and contrast what's said by different translators and authors and take what seems to make sense.
00;31;36;00 - 00;32;01;02
Murray Dueck
So and it makes sense in the context of this passage as we went over it pretty hard last week, he has given to us this is verse 16. He has given to us like an engagement ring is given to a bride as a first installment of what's coming. He is our hope, promise of a future inheritance, right? Which seals us until we have all of our redemption, promises and experiences complete freedom.
00;32;01;04 - 00;32;04;13
Murray Dueck
So, again, the hope of our calling a little bit further on.
00;32;04;13 - 00;32;05;00
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;32;06;04 - 00;32;24;08
Murray Dueck
bridal the, you know, the wedding, his glorious inheritance of saints. The wedding. I mean, the context fits that well, but I just thought I would read that for you out there. Like, let's put it in the modern English. So that's what he's talking about? Yeah. If the parchment of a contract does not bear the signature of a reliable witness is a pledge, it's not a sure one.
00;32;24;10 - 00;32;40;19
Murray Dueck
It's the same way the illumination of grace is by no means assured until the commitments have been fulfilled and the virtues required. So, in other words, we got to do our part here. We got to work on our holiness, work on our meekness, work on our purity. We've got to, you know, love the poor. There's something we got to do.
00;32;40;22 - 00;33;02;10
Murray Dueck
And not just, well, I'm saved by grace. And that's it right there. There's, you know, there's this purification of the soul going on. Right as witnesses are the contract. So is a practice of the practice of the commandments and the virtues for this spiritual pledge. So you're not doing works here to escape the wrath of God. Yeah. Which is what we think.
00;33;02;18 - 00;33;08;28
Murray Dueck
oh. That's a bad way of thinking. He's a father, so let's not work at anything anymore. He goes, no, you're getting ready for a marriage pain.
00;33;08;29 - 00;33;09;14
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
00;33;09;18 - 00;33;31;06
Murray Dueck
You're purifying yourself for this beautiful moment. Think about, you know, that the parable of the guy that gets into the wedding banquet we talked about last week, and he doesn't have the wedding clothes on you, gets thrown out. You know, we're you know, these are the wedding clothes. it is in this way that all who are going to be saved and that way is I work out my salvation.
00;33;31;12 - 00;33;49;15
Murray Dueck
I'm healing my soul. Receive the full possession of the pledge. So I'll read one more little passage. It is just as if the contract is first of all, written down through the practices of the commandments, then signed and sealed by the virtues. So you get started and then you grow in Christ. You become like him. It's start to be sealed.
00;33;49;15 - 00;34;08;01
Murray Dueck
You're starting to see peace, joy, patience, you. The fruit is starting to show up. Hey, you know, there's this bridal intimacy thing. We're on a journey. We're getting it. It's then that Christ the bridegroom gives the ring or the pledge of the spirit to the soul. His bride, born. We're going to have to go back to that before the wedding.
00;34;08;01 - 00;34;29;19
Murray Dueck
So here's the big deal. Before the wedding, all that the bride receives from her fiancee, it's a pledge. She waits until after the marriage to receive the agreed dowry and the gifts promised in it. So the inheritance. In the same way the bride who was the church of the faithful in the soul of each one of us, at first receives only the pledge of the spirit from Christ the bridegroom.
00;34;29;21 - 00;34;57;26
Murray Dueck
She has to wait until she leaves this earth to receive the everlasting, lasting gifts. Sorry, and of the kingdom of heaven. Yet the pledge gives you the complete assurance that these agreements will not be deceptive. And, So, in other words, there's this, this journey of becoming. And it goes on and on a little bit here. Yeah, but this, this journey of how they're looking at Christianity, it is there's, you know, why are they praying?
00;34;57;26 - 00;35;11;03
Murray Dueck
Why are they fasting? Why are they, doing this? The seasons of the church. You know, why I lent you know, I, I want to work on my inner man. That it becomes pure and holy for the bridegroom.
00;35;11;05 - 00;35;11;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;35;11;19 - 00;35;16;17
Murray Dueck
And that's right. And, that's what contemplative prayer. That's the purpose of it.
00;35;16;20 - 00;35;22;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Oh, I'm I, I'm going to say something. I think back to you. I'm going to say something that I think is probably very controversial. Right.
00;35;22;25 - 00;35;29;08
Murray Dueck
All right. You mean like you have done that already today? well, actually, you made me.
00;35;29;11 - 00;35;32;27
Joshua Hoffert
You made me think about it. So it's your fault, I agree.
00;35;33;00 - 00;35;34;25
Murray Dueck
Is I just like to do it. So, you know.
00;35;34;25 - 00;35;43;10
Joshua Hoffert
I, I, I had, I just had, I had, in the words of Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes, I had an epiphany.
00;35;43;13 - 00;35;45;08
Murray Dueck
00;35;45;22 - 00;36;00;09
Joshua Hoffert
Anyway, yes. So the reason we develop a theology that highlights, in our redemptive model, escaping the wrath of God, right. Because that's that's largely the system you and I grew up in.
00;36;00;12 - 00;36;16;23
Murray Dueck
Absolutely. And then we, you know, we rejected that, you know, by going into, let's say, you know, the third wave movement, which would be the vineyard movement, which would be. Yes. Right. Like which is good, except that maybe it, you know, there's. Yeah. So not so good.
00;36;17;02 - 00;36;21;04
Joshua Hoffert
here, here, this is this is I'm hypothesizing something.
00;36;21;09 - 00;36;21;23
Murray Dueck
00;36;21;24 - 00;36;36;18
Joshua Hoffert
The reason we developed that theology in terms of the, let's say the, the Western church in general, the reason that theology has been developed, the redemptive model is escaping the wrath of God. Penal substitutionary atonement, right, is what we would kind of call it.
00;36;36;18 - 00;36;39;03
Murray Dueck
Oh, boy. Here we go.
00;36;39;05 - 00;36;52;03
Joshua Hoffert
Is because we have a system of thought. Oh, man, I can tell this is going to, we have a system of thought developed by people who never encountered the love of God.
00;36;52;11 - 00;36;53;09
Murray Dueck
Well, there you go.
00;36;53;09 - 00;37;13;05
Joshua Hoffert
Orphans. Right? With our orphans. Right. And so our system was escaping the wrath rather than encountering the love. And by encountering the love, we escape the wrath. We're not denying the fact that God has a bone to pick with humanity based on what humanity has done. You know, maybe that's bad language for it, but you understand what I'm saying.
00;37;13;05 - 00;37;43;08
Joshua Hoffert
We're not highlighting that. There's we're not denying that there's a an element of God that is holy and reverential and, that there's anger that any of those kind of, you know, personalized forms could take. Right? I mean, the scriptures talk about God being angry at certain things. yeah. And so we're not saying that's not there, but if you're if you don't if you haven't encountered the love of God in a direct and experiential way and that hasn't permeated your being, right?
00;37;43;08 - 00;38;12;07
Joshua Hoffert
How else can John say perfect love is cast it all, fear. There's no more fear in love, because love includes the idea of punishment, how he sets the stage for the culmination of the spiritual life being perfect love and in fact, you could say I had this thought, today, as I was reading the scriptures, that, that Christ in his in his willingness like when Peter says, I will die for you, right?
00;38;12;10 - 00;38;13;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;38;13;09 - 00;38;38;11
Joshua Hoffert
And and Christ as well. Actually, you're going to deny me three, three times what Peter was willing to die for wasn't actually for Christ. It was for himself. Peter was willing to die for himself because he and I. This is why I think that. Because when he stands in front of the the, you know, the rabble rousers that come to the Garden of Gethsemane to take Jesus and he pulls his sword out and cut someone's ear off, is because he's willing to die in a blaze of glory in that moment.
00;38;38;13 - 00;38;57;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right? But that's about him. That's not about Jesus. Yeah, Jesus proved that the content of his being was pure love right until the end. Right. And, and and Peter wasn't willing to die for love. He was willing to die for himself, but he wasn't willing to die for love and set himself down. And so he didn't actually know the content of his heart until Christ convicted him.
00;38;57;26 - 00;39;09;17
Joshua Hoffert
In that moment. And and so pure love is seen right there. Why do we keep going back to models of wrath? I don't get it. Why do we keep going to back to models? Well, you're an anger. I don't get it.
00;39;09;18 - 00;39;28;14
Murray Dueck
Let's talk about this because I think it fits this thing about the bridal paradigm. But it does. But part of it is, I think, and me and father Mike had a lot of talks about this early on and, and, and is that, that, that we, we tend to read Jesus, you know, in some ways through the lens of the Old Testament.
00;39;28;16 - 00;39;48;05
Murray Dueck
And that's what the Pharisees were doing, right? That that we were looking through, through at Jesus, through a, through a judicial paradigm rather than a, a, hospital, a medical paradigm. Right. And so, you know, when the Pharisees said, Jesus goes, you know, look at him. He's eating with sinners and tax collectors, you know, why are they so mad at him?
00;39;48;05 - 00;40;03;02
Murray Dueck
Because because it's he's breaking the law, which you don't everybody do that. You're like to heal on the Sabbath. If you look at me, he doesn't even get to fight. But Jesus goes, it's not that. It's not that the sick, that it's not the healthy that need a doctor. It's a sick Jesus. Because you're paradigm here is wrong.
00;40;03;09 - 00;40;24;09
Murray Dueck
This this is a sickness, you know this. Mankind is and and and we are right. So so. But see, the thing is, how does that sickness manifest itself in regards the holiness of God? You know. And so we like to think, well, it means that God's a judge and he's going to kill us instead of like, well, okay, think of it like, think of it like this.
00;40;24;09 - 00;40;41;13
Murray Dueck
And maybe we we share this a little bit with Father Mike, just briefly, but I'll do it again. So think about love. And perfect love casts out fear. So so let's say there's a there's a couple and they really, really think about how communion for some communion is life. For some communion is Murray.
00;40;41;13 - 00;40;49;05
Joshua Hoffert
Cup by the Murray. We covered this. So anybody that wants more on this topic we covered it in episodes with Father Michael. Yeah.
00;40;49;06 - 00;41;13;04
Murray Dueck
Really worth listening to that right here after what we're talking about. Yeah. And and so yeah. So you know, it's it's yeah it's interesting. So say, you know, let's just think about love here. What is love do. How does Paul go from I'm equal to the most eminent apostles. You know, till I'm the chief of sinners. I mean, at the end of his life, you know what's going on there.
00;41;13;06 - 00;41;40;02
Murray Dueck
And and still talking about the. I want to pursue Christ and know him and, and and, and so do you think about these two people that, you know, they love each other, they're cuddly. They're, you know, they're touchy feely, always want to be together. They always want to hold hands. And then one day, one sheets on the other, and they get back together and now doesn't want to hold her hand, doesn't want to look her in any eye, doesn't want to spend all that time together.
00;41;40;05 - 00;42;05;03
Murray Dueck
Why? Because the same love that used to draw him now because of the sin, burns its conscience and he just can't do it. Has she changed? Not at all. Has her love for him change? Not at all. He, however, has has spoiled his own soul, right? And now he comes back into the presence of the very same love, and it burns him right.
00;42;05;06 - 00;42;21;10
Murray Dueck
And and you know, he needs to repent and get some healing and work on his issues. Absolutely. But is that her issue? No, it's his issue. Right. And and when we make it about, well, God's wrath, he's going to wipe me out. Well, you know, if you put it at you, if you're in a house and, boy, you should see my house, right?
00;42;21;15 - 00;42;34;19
Murray Dueck
I want to talk about dirt. I got sheep living here. Let me tell you, I've learned something about sheep's anatomy where I was into eschatology. Now I'm just into cattle.
00;42;34;20 - 00;42;35;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;42;35;14 - 00;42;36;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So all.
00;42;36;05 - 00;42;37;07
Joshua Hoffert
Agree. Yeah, let.
00;42;37;07 - 00;42;57;02
Murray Dueck
Me tell you so. But even if I clean this thing up, let's say I swept it out and it's going to need that. But but then I put it in like a 10,000 watt light bulb. Oh my goodness. It's going to look horrible right? Right. But the issue is isn't it's not that it's clean when I sweep it.
00;42;57;02 - 00;43;28;06
Murray Dueck
It's just that I don't have the illumination to see how dirty it actually is. That's right. Right. And as your soul gets purified and you get closer to the one you love who is pure love, you get to see inside of you as the pure love. Like lightning flashes in what's really there. And, and it's scary and, and you know, let me just quote Saint Simeon and this is in regard bridal intimacy that we just we just talked about.
00;43;28;06 - 00;43;38;05
Murray Dueck
So it's it's interesting. It's all in the same, passage here. if I, if I can find the same page, page 46, I think it was.
00;43;38;15 - 00;43;43;24
Murray Dueck
let's hear.
00;43;43;26 - 00;43;51;10
Murray Dueck
Because he talks about the flashing of the divine light, and,
00;43;51;12 - 00;43;57;25
Murray Dueck
I can't find it in 30s. Everybody will just move on. let's see here.
00;43;57;27 - 00;43;59;28
Joshua Hoffert
You can or you can just, They can just imagine it.
00;44;00;02 - 00;44;22;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So he he talks about once you, you get betrothed and you start to walk closer and closer to God. Suddenly he starts to reveal some things about about his nature supernaturally. And what does that do to you when you you actually see God for who he is? Is it because it scares you? Is it because he hates you?
00;44;22;26 - 00;44;43;22
Murray Dueck
Like, oh my goodness. Well, maybe it's because we're not in a in a place yet that if God revealed Himself in His fullness, we can actually handle it. Yeah. You know, and you got to understand what Paul is talking about, getting a thorn in the flesh. It's good to maybe keep this in mind. Everyone did. Because here's this guy turning the known world upside down.
00;44;43;23 - 00;44;48;18
Murray Dueck
You. Today you have a podcast in the film, crews would be following him around and he'd be building Joe.
00;44;48;18 - 00;44;49;15
Joshua Hoffert
Rogan at their.
00;44;49;16 - 00;45;18;11
Murray Dueck
Church. Yeah, he'd be sending teams out and multiplying himself and and and instead he goes, well, God gave me the sword in the flesh because of my pride. So, you know, after helping everyone else, I might not lose my myself because he's like, I still have stuff in me that needs healing. Yeah, I'm doing all this outward miracles and stuff, but I could lose my own soul here because, there's things inside of me from the fall and for.
00;45;18;12 - 00;45;43;18
Murray Dueck
And he's like, for me, it manifests as pride. And I need to know my own weakness that this what's going on isn't coming from me. How everybody loves me and thinks I'm so great. It's not coming for me. It's coming from Christ. I need this and to to us in the Western Church because it's about the doing in the building rather than being and becoming and being and becoming.
00;45;43;18 - 00;45;47;09
Murray Dueck
It's based on intimate, radical bridle love.
00;45;47;11 - 00;45;47;24
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
00;45;47;26 - 00;46;06;26
Murray Dueck
That we're going to, we're going to a wedding banquet. So we want to prepare our hearts. We want to we want to we want to be ready, right. Instead of now, I, I got all this work to do because God is my boss or he's my judge and he's going to kill me. Well, either those paradigms are wrong.
00;46;06;26 - 00;46;16;11
Murray Dueck
And the early church, the reason they're in the desert praying it's in one. You know, they're working on their own souls. Two, they want an encounter with the bridegroom.
00;46;16;13 - 00;46;16;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right?
00;46;16;28 - 00;46;40;15
Murray Dueck
That's what they're doing. They're not thinking judicially here at all. Are they seeing their issues? Yeah. In regards to the divine light and this massive amount of love pouring upon them. Right. so, so just the category of how we're seeing the world is very, very different, you know? Yeah. So you have to read Simeon and the thoughts I just kind of laid out there in regards to that.
00;46;40;17 - 00;46;41;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;46;41;01 - 00;47;00;05
Murray Dueck
Because that that's how they're, that's how they're thinking this bridal intimacy is, it's the driving force, this, of the heart and, you know, charismatic. I'll just say this, you know, like, you know, how did I just get here? How did I just become, like, geeks of, patristic literature?
00;47;00;13 - 00;47;02;20
Joshua Hoffert
go back to listen. Episodes one and two. Yeah.
00;47;02;20 - 00;47;02;29
Murray Dueck
Like.
00;47;03;03 - 00;47;03;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;47;03;22 - 00;47;27;04
Murray Dueck
Like the same as you like. And I'll put money. I'll put money. You guys, listen, I can make a hundred bucks. You. Because I'm going to be right. I bet you you had an encounter with God and it ruined you, you guys. And it when it ruined you, you went back to church and and you worked and you served and you followed the vision, and you did all this stuff, and it made you tired.
00;47;27;06 - 00;47;45;22
Murray Dueck
And you're like, what happened to my first love? Where did it go? I got to have more because. Because it ruined you. What did it ruin you for? Divine intimacy. Yeah. And then what? What were you given? Rules and law and and here. Go do this service. Right. And you did it thinking it'll bring me closer to Christ.
00;47;45;22 - 00;48;04;05
Murray Dueck
But it it did it. And we need to work. And I'm not saying that, but the paradigm doesn't work. And you figured it out and you're like, there's got to be more. There is. And that's why the church talks about this. And that's how you ended up here, and that's how we ended up here, because there is more.
00;48;04;07 - 00;48;25;25
Murray Dueck
And and it's this becoming bridle paradigm that the church always had. But when it gets hijacked, this bridle paradigm to be a servant, a servant where you just work for the master, right? The master does say, enter into the joy of your master, because it should bring you into deeper intimacy. So we're not saying, you know, if you love, you want to give it away to be a byproduct.
00;48;26;01 - 00;48;45;18
Murray Dueck
But but you don't serve to earn love, right? Because you love, you serve. So we're not saying stop doing all that, but the idea of the working of the inner man, the encounter of God, the ravaged of God, ruins you for the ordinary. Yeah, yeah. And it's ruined you. That's how these guys ended in the desert.
00;48;45;21 - 00;48;46;05
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
00;48;46;11 - 00;49;17;21
Murray Dueck
And and you know why? Because the church of its time had become corrupt and it was suddenly cool to be a Christian. And. And these people were like, this can't be all there is. And off they went into the desert and the church right now, I think, in the charismatic movement is feeling that with all that, you know, yeah, all the, all the corruption going on, all the stuff happening, you know, people, you know, what's the word, whatever.
00;49;17;21 - 00;49;18;10
Murray Dueck
They're, you know, you.
00;49;18;10 - 00;49;19;01
Joshua Hoffert
Construction.
00;49;19;01 - 00;49;28;13
Murray Dueck
You construction ism, they're like, I've just so passionate. What do I do? That's why they did it right there. And but this is what what we're talking about is what they discovered. Yeah.
00;49;28;13 - 00;49;36;00
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right. Yeah. Yeah I mean, there's just so many there's so much we could unpack in there.
00;49;36;02 - 00;49;59;13
Murray Dueck
I do like I like five, ten more episodes just on that. I know time is important as we talk about it that that you're realizing as you're listening that if you're interpreting through your Western Christian lens and going, oh, I get it, that's not the right lens. Yeah, right. Yes, this is the lens, but you're on the path if these things are happening to you.
00;49;59;15 - 00;49;59;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;49;59;21 - 00;50;08;05
Murray Dueck
This is kind of where you're going to end up and, and and we'll talk about well how do you do it. Well then we're back to contemplative prayer and, and let's we'll get.
00;50;08;05 - 00;50;29;11
Joshua Hoffert
So let's, let's do this. Let's do because I've got I think there's two things we could cover in the time that we have left. one because that, that what you're saying drawing us back to that place of the, the paradigm of love. First action flowing from there.
00;50;29;12 - 00;50;29;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;50;29;27 - 00;50;51;18
Joshua Hoffert
Love first. The contemplative, mystical life flowing from there. and, anyway, is, is, you know, the bridle paradigm to use the language we've been using is what distinguish is we'll use this term Christian mysticism. I don't like the term mysticism. Right.
00;50;51;24 - 00;50;55;05
Murray Dueck
And now we need to go into that. So yeah, it's going right. That horse.
00;50;55;08 - 00;51;31;02
Joshua Hoffert
The term for one the term mysticism in in its genesis was coined by Dionysius. The area right. Who. So there was a book that said Dionysus is the figure in the Book of Acts who Paul speaks to at various angles and says, come, teach us more. That's dynamics. Legend has it church history. Legend has it the donor ox became a great teacher in the early church and the there's a Dionysian school which ended up being centralized in Alexandria.
00;51;31;05 - 00;51;34;27
Joshua Hoffert
And so there was two main hubs.
00;51;34;29 - 00;51;36;04
Murray Dueck
Of
00;51;36;06 - 00;51;39;29
Joshua Hoffert
Antioch and Alexandria. Those were the two main theological hubs in the early church.
00;51;39;29 - 00;51;41;11
Murray Dueck
I didn't know Dionysius.
00;51;41;13 - 00;51;42;10
Joshua Hoffert
Dionysius was.
00;51;42;10 - 00;51;43;10
Murray Dueck
Alexandria.
00;51;43;13 - 00;52;07;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. He was one of the the. Yeah. Because he's in he's in Greece. Right. That's where Paul is. He's in Greece when he sees the altar to the unknown gods and so anyway, so Dionysius is connected with Alexandria, if I remember, and getting all my stuff. Right. So which it's possible that I'm not anyway. But don't I see this was one of the early guys that was accredited with starting one of those early schools of theology.
00;52;07;16 - 00;52;23;07
Joshua Hoffert
So Dionysus, ostensibly writes a book called The Mystical Theology. that that book was written most likely in the fifth century, by a person writing under the pseudonym Dionysius of Pseudo Guy.
00;52;23;08 - 00;52;23;24
Murray Dueck
You know, it's a.
00;52;23;28 - 00;52;44;09
Joshua Hoffert
Pseudo Dionysius of Alexandria, although people make it, people have made the case that it actually is Dionysius, and they're they can they you know, when you look at it, you can you can make the case that it was Dionysus. You can make the case. It wasn't whatever. So don't ISIS wrote about, divine mysticism or, mystical theology is the book.
00;52;44;12 - 00;53;23;22
Joshua Hoffert
It's like six chapters. It's super short. You can read it if you want, but the word mysticism or mystical simply meant being concerned about the mystery of a thing. so it was called Mr. Gogi. Write theology. Mr.. Gogi, the knowledge of the mystery of God and the the idea in, mystical theology and dynamics is work. And you can see this in, to works that follow that work, the divine names and, the celestial hierarchy is that the path to knowledge, to God is to acknowledge all the things that he is not.
00;53;23;24 - 00;53;31;17
Joshua Hoffert
And once you start stripping all of the things that God is not, you start to clarify who he is. That's kind of the idea.
00;53;31;20 - 00;53;33;11
Murray Dueck
Apathetic and capital.
00;53;33;14 - 00;53;36;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, they're called technical terms, apathetic. And I always.
00;53;36;06 - 00;53;39;00
Murray Dueck
Get it mixed up. I think we're talking apathy. Apathetic.
00;53;39;00 - 00;53;44;07
Joshua Hoffert
Apathetic is the removal of something a pathetic removing of pathos.
00;53;44;07 - 00;53;47;27
Murray Dueck
Got it. There you go. So everybody just throw those words out. If you type them in, like.
00;53;47;29 - 00;54;10;22
Joshua Hoffert
You can type them in later on. Yeah that's right. So so that's where the idea of mysticism comes from is the mystery of God. Now mysticism today is taken on the connotation of weird experiences, esoteric moments, divine visions, dreams, all these kind of things. But that's not really the what the word mysticism means and what we mean when we say Christian.
00;54;10;22 - 00;54;34;15
Murray Dueck
Mist and what the church would like. Everyone just in regards, there's a really great, little series called on Mysticism Cult by Bishop Irena Steenberg. Where, where, where he'll go over this. It's brilliant. It's super good. I listen to it like once every six months. And, and Bishop Bishop Irena Steenberg on mysticism. and it'd be worth your time because.
00;54;34;19 - 00;54;37;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah, you want to get into their heads. This is the way is there's.
00;54;37;21 - 00;54;57;08
Joshua Hoffert
There's a series of books you can pick up also by Bernard McGinn, who, has worked through the history of Christian mysticism, too, given given some good, context for that as well. so there's lots of resources there. so when we say mysticism, we're talking about the study of the mystery of God and the experience of the mystery of God.
00;54;57;09 - 00;55;39;07
Joshua Hoffert
That's what we mean. The, the in the, the Spanish mystics used a word that would more aptly be translated as the contemplatives. those that contemplate the nature of God. And so that's, that's a that's probably a better term to use. Right. So, so all of this to say that when we're talking about the bridle paradigm as the thrust of what Christian mysticism is all about, which is an encounter with something that impresses itself so divinely upon you that you can't help but be changed, which is the story of known as I've caught a vision of the heavenly beauty, that heavenly beauty and Christian mysticism is localized in a person, which is Jesus.
00;55;39;07 - 00;56;05;09
Joshua Hoffert
We see the divine figure completely represented as who God is. This and the the greatest expression of love is his willingness to die for all of humanity. so we have, when we talk about the person of God, the experience of God, we're not talking about a vague, ethereal, unformed or, image less thing. Right. And that sense, we have the perfect picture of what God's like in Jesus.
00;56;05;09 - 00;56;36;06
Joshua Hoffert
And so Christian mysticism always points us back to what God looks like in Jesus. Because Jesus comes and explains God. The incarnation is what God is like. And there's obviously the the mystery of God as being greater and bigger than anything we can possibly comprehend. But God is explained in the person of Jesus. And so the contemplative life is about being so impressed by the nature of God that anything we experience of him always points us back to what Jesus is like.
00;56;36;06 - 00;56;57;23
Joshua Hoffert
So this is Christian mysticism, right? This is how we would define that. And then and then, sure, strange experiences can happen, but they're not the thrust and the genesis of Christian mysticism, the thrust and the genesis is this bridle paradigm where we've been caught up in contemplating how beautiful he is, and we know how beautiful he is, because we've seen what he's like in the person of Jesus.
00;56;57;23 - 00;57;23;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right? So this is, this is and so there's, there's in the, in the, early 1900s, there was a, a lot of talk about synchronizing, well, where's what are the similarities in Christianity and Hinduism and, Sikhism and Buddhism and, and all these paths just lead to the same place. And so let's find all the ways that they're the same.
00;57;23;05 - 00;57;48;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And this was synchronistic, the word of syncretism, it was the study of how all major religions lead to the same place. And, and it's, it's it's realistically, it's completely stupid. Yes. Because once you start, once you start investigating the differences, the differences are so stark that you can use the same word. For instance, the the Buddhist.
00;57;48;29 - 00;58;10;02
Joshua Hoffert
I was just looking up some of the Buddhist, prayers and reading them to, to Murray. The Buddhist would use the word peace, and the Christian would use the word peace in their in their fill me with peace, right. Would be a prayer that I could say, and a Buddhist mantra that a Buddhist could chant, and we would mean wildly different things.
00;58;10;02 - 00;58;32;04
Joshua Hoffert
We would mean wildly different things. In the origin of the phrase, we would mean wildly different things in the practice of the phrase, and we would mean wildly different things in the outworking of the phrase. And so, so what we want to say is this whole concept of the bridle paradigm is really what distinguishes Christian spirituality, Christian mysticism from eastern spirituality and eastern mysticism.
00;58;32;04 - 00;58;51;25
Joshua Hoffert
This is really the thing that differentiates it. Yeah. Is, is and I'm going to read a quote for you and this is, pointing back to the, the, the practice in Hindu, in the Hindu religion, which I think they're up to about 3 million gods in the Hindu religion. Oh my. You know, it might even be more than that.
00;58;52;20 - 00;59;14;25
Joshua Hoffert
and this is from a Orthodox archbishop named, contemporary guy who's still writing Archbishop Chrysostom. And he said this in his book, Themes in Patristic Psychology. He does not become meaning he being the human, the human, the human, the individual human, man or woman. He does not become in the the primitive image of the ancient Upanishads.
00;59;14;27 - 00;59;42;02
Joshua Hoffert
The Upanishads is one of the religious works of the Hindus. He does not become in the primitive image of the ancient Upanishads, like a river flowing towards the universal sea of divinity, there to be swallowed up in the totality of being and personhood itself. Instead, he remains a distinct drop within that sea, never become what the sea is in its whole, but remaining an identifiable, unique entity, sharing in the energies of the infinite, ineffable essence of the Godhead.
00;59;42;05 - 01;00;07;16
Joshua Hoffert
Okay, so the difference between and this is where we need to I feel like we need to clarify this. The difference between eastern mysticism and Christian mysticism, you know, to use those terms. Yeah. Is that in eastern mysticism, the goal is the emptying of the self and the becoming of divine nothing and encountering the divine nothing and losing yourself because your self is all the things that you don't want to be anymore.
01;00;07;19 - 01;00;39;18
Joshua Hoffert
And in Christian mysticism, the goal in emptying yourself is to encounter something that is very real, tangible and definable. And it's indefinable but definable. It's indefinable, but that thing to find itself in the person of Jesus. And so this is a big difference. So when you look at some of the, some of the say, the Hindu prayers versus the Christian prayers, we have a very definitive beginning point and an ending point in the Christian.
01;00;39;20 - 01;01;01;04
Joshua Hoffert
In the Christian we're looking towards the person of God. We're looking at being filled with the person of God. And so my, my path is not emptiness for emptiness sake, which is what you find in, Buddhist practices. If I am emptied, then I will find peace in it, because I will no longer have the chaos because I've been emptied.
01;01;01;07 - 01;01;18;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And I can I could pull up a, a prayer for you. in the Buddhist litany for peace. as we were together, praying for peace, let us be truly with each other. Let us pay attention to our breathing. Let us be relaxed in our bodies and our minds. Let us be at peace with our bodies and minds.
01;01;18;01 - 01;01;33;08
Joshua Hoffert
Let us return to ourselves and become wholly ourselves. Let us maintain a half smile on our faces. Let us be aware of our of the source, of our being common to us all, and to all living things. So the whole point, I think I knocked the microphone again. Oh, Donnie.
01;01;33;10 - 01;01;34;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah, I'm getting.
01;01;34;23 - 01;01;56;05
Joshua Hoffert
The whole point to be to be back in a place, to be in a place of peace is to be present with yourself, empty of all of your chaos. In Christianity, to be in a place of peace is to be present with yourself, empty with your chaos. Empty of your chaos. Yes, we could say that. But you can't find.
01;01;56;05 - 01;02;12;12
Joshua Hoffert
You can't. That doesn't. The emptiness of chaos doesn't generate peace in the Christian mind. The emptiness of chaos generates space for God to come in. In his peace and grant peace to the individual. And so pieces of peace is a.
01;02;12;14 - 01;02;13;03
Murray Dueck
Tangible.
01;02;13;03 - 01;02;24;15
Joshua Hoffert
Thing you experience. It's actually an energy of God that you come into and participate with, and you become peaceful because you're participating in an energy that already exists outside of you.
01;02;24;17 - 01;02;38;04
Murray Dueck
So the word grace, everybody in Greek is a word energy where we get the word energy from. Right? So yeah, the divine energy of God. Grace. Yeah. And so yeah, be still. And what? Just be still, you know, be still and know that.
01;02;38;04 - 01;03;00;12
Joshua Hoffert
I am you still. No. Yes. So there's, there's a there's a vast chasm between the two. Oh yeah. And so for instance, another, another one, another distinction would be in, in the high faith, which is the Baha'i Faith. I just having problems with my Mike your Baha'i Faith. Another. Yeah. Another, eastern mystical, another place where eastern mysticism would draw.
01;03;00;12 - 01;03;23;21
Joshua Hoffert
And what we're really talking about is, new Age contemplative practices and things like that, because people get really wound up about talking about Christian mysticism and contemplative prayer. so look at the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i Faith is going to say, look, we have a divine word. And Christians, you have a divine word. And and but the divine word in the Baha'i Faith is a ethereal substance.
01;03;23;21 - 01;03;27;14
Joshua Hoffert
The divine word in the Christian faith is a it's a logos. It's a.
01;03;27;16 - 01;03;28;06
Murray Dueck
Person.
01;03;28;08 - 01;03;52;19
Joshua Hoffert
It's a personal thought that has rational comprehension, that has expression that's absolutely definitive and known. And this is what the in fact, this is what the early Christians were arguing about with, the Greek philosophers. When you get into origin and Tertullian is about the nature of the divine word, the divine word is not a, a ethereal expression.
01;03;52;19 - 01;04;21;12
Joshua Hoffert
The divine word is a is a personal expression with personhood that's definitive, not kind of an an absolute infinity of personhood, but an absolutely defined person in the person of Jesus. And so all of this, all of this just goes to show you that when we start investigating the differences and, you know, I don't I'm not trying to criticize anybody that wants to practice Hinduism or anything like that.
01;04;21;14 - 01;04;39;09
Joshua Hoffert
It's I'm just saying don't call them the same thing and don't get confused when we talk about them and say, well, they're talking about contemplative prayer. They must be talking. That's just New Age mysticism. No, actually it's not. It's very different. Maybe how other people talk about it, it's the same, but how we're talking about it, we're making a very big distinction between the two.
01;04;39;16 - 01;04;44;17
Joshua Hoffert
because the way we see it, there is a massive distinction a gulf between the two, a chasm that can't be crossed.
01;04;44;17 - 01;04;59;07
Murray Dueck
And it's because of a personal love relationship. So let me read a little bit out of this distance. You like this. So everybody, this is a good if you're interested in this, there's a great book called The Mountain of Silence by Curious Echoes. See Mark at ease and so he was,
01;04;59;12 - 01;05;04;07
Joshua Hoffert
It's barely by him, though. It's really just Maximus talking. Father Maximus talking.
01;05;04;07 - 01;05;23;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah, but if you want to kind of jump into a modern. I mean, you're not going to necessarily agree with everything in here, but it'll give you the framework. So I'm just going to read you a couple of pages, but a little bit of this and that in regards this, just to sum this up, how does this fit fit with divine Eros, this divine love?
01;05;24;10 - 01;05;46;08
Murray Dueck
so I'll read you a little bit just to modernize all this, the spiritual methodology developed by the saints, Father Maximus explains, aims at offering us the possibility of the direct vision of God. So what are the Desert Fathers? Said a theologian at, To, to be a theologian is a theologian is one who prays and one who prays is a theologian.
01;05;46;14 - 01;05;53;28
Murray Dueck
But they mean what they don't mean. Somebody who reads books and has a degree, they mean a theologian is one who sees God right?
01;05;54;05 - 01;05;59;26
Joshua Hoffert
That's praise truly says, actually, it says a theologian is one who prays truly, and one who prays truly is a theologian.
01;05;59;27 - 01;06;26;19
Murray Dueck
Because they have the spiritual methodology developed by the saints aims at offering the possibility of the direct vision of God. When that happens, as I've said many times, it is no longer a matter of belief in the existence of God, but a direct recognition of the eternal and unbroken relationship that exists between God and humanity. And of course, the essence of that relationship says it's love which first emanates from God to humans and then from humans to God.
01;06;26;25 - 01;06;53;00
Murray Dueck
It may sound scandalous to some people, but the full flowering of that relationship is the attainment of a deeply erotic relationship with God that lies far beyond the most intense and the most passionate erotic rapture between human beings. That state of ecstasy is what Saint Maximus the Confessor called the Eros maniacs. Do you know what I'll do? Father Maximus asked and turned towards me with a quizzical look on my face.
01;06;53;06 - 01;07;17;24
Murray Dueck
I'm afraid I don't, I said softly, having been blessed only with the experience of human Eros, I could not possibly fathom what Arabs maniacs might feel like. I could only imagine such a state intellectually. I could accept, for example, that all erotic relationships at all levels of intensity, form the the sublime and, that blah blah blah, the absolute love of God.
01;07;17;26 - 01;07;39;29
Murray Dueck
It is like the sun emanating its rays. Human eros is experience of the rays. Eros manages must be the entrance into the sun itself. Good example. and so, I mean, this is kind of what they're talking about here, that that we're going for a relationship with a person that's very deep, intimate. And so I'm going to read you one more little piece here.
01;07;40;01 - 01;07;41;28
Joshua Hoffert
And we'll wrap we'll wrap up with that little piece.
01;07;41;28 - 01;08;03;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Once the gifts of the grace are bestowed upon a person through faith, then Theos is the next and final destination of the soul journey. So this is again, it's like we're peering through a keyhole, talking about things we've maybe glimpsed that keep us hungry, keep us going. But boy, I'm up. You know, it's oh God have mercy for me even to even talk about it.
01;08;03;14 - 01;08;26;05
Murray Dueck
This stage is beyond all stages and defies all human understanding. According to the tradition of the Holy Elders and the Christianity in general, the individual soul does not lose its uniqueness upon its return to God. So again, the very big difference between Buddhism and Hinduism and Christianity, it does not merge. it does not merge with God in such a way that it's autonomy is compromised or destroyed.
01;08;26;05 - 01;08;47;27
Murray Dueck
The prodigal son does not lose his identity upon his return to the palace. On the contrary, he carries along with them into his new deified state. The accumulated experience of his worldly sojourn. This particular point, maybe one of the key differences between spirituality of the Christian elders and some Buddhist beliefs concerning the final destination of the human soul.
01;08;48;00 - 01;09;11;16
Murray Dueck
From the perspective of Christian elders, what is annihilated through catharsis? You know, fasting and prayer is not the inner self-awareness, the isness. But there are some total of egotistical passions lust, pride, anger, gluttony ad your list that obstruct your vision of God, these things and obstruct our vision. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
01;09;11;22 - 01;09;32;16
Murray Dueck
Saint Seraphim of Seraph may be in a state of oneness with God, but he still remains autonomous within that oneness as a self-aware soul, as Saint Seraphim serving God's plan. So here's a guy that would see the divine light. Seraphim. In saying that, one needs to be reminded that the best of all wisdom traditions, that we're becoming one with Christ.
01;09;32;16 - 01;10;02;24
Murray Dueck
So, in spite of these inherent limitations and understanding causes in spiritual great saints, contemporary theologians try to convey to us the most feeble glimpse of this ultimate mystery of human destiny. The divine ization of the individual is a supreme gift of grace in the Holy Spirit, wrote a contemporary Greek theologian. these deal sized human beings undergo changes not only in mind and soul, but also in body.
01;10;03;24 - 01;10;27;28
Murray Dueck
and that we're talking about these guys that pray that individuals forget ordinary bodily needs, food and sleep, since they don't have the physical urges, you know, they're in this connection we're talking with way beyond our understanding here. Such persons no longer, are even confined to the physical laws of ordinary humans. Their souls have tasted the depths of divine eros and the sweetness of mental gifts, and therefore it cannot rest on what it has so far achieve.
01;10;28;03 - 01;10;58;25
Murray Dueck
Proceed the further heavenly realms. Wow! And one last thought. Finally, the teaching of the Holy elders about Theodosius as its social dimension. Theodosius must not be seen within the context. The personal egocentric joy. It is often stressed by holy elders at the Theo sized individual even though he's attained perfection with with God. they're serving and now they're doing stuff and they're giving it away, and it flows out of them and they pray for the world.
01;10;58;25 - 01;11;01;19
Murray Dueck
And because they can't keep the love in him. I just quoted that.
01;11;01;21 - 01;11;02;15
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
01;11;02;17 - 01;11;37;15
Murray Dueck
But the point is, is that when you're what you're experiencing is this hunger for more of God. I remember when Gregory Palamas, who was fighting with Baal, that God could be known in Berlin, was like, no, you can't know God on this earth. and he's saying, know that this grace is presence of God. Is God. on his deathbed, John Chrysostom appeared to him in a dream, you know, so he's three hundreds and, and, and, palmas is 1450s, 30s, 30s, probably.
01;11;37;17 - 01;11;45;05
Murray Dueck
And he says to him to the heights. To the heights, meaning, son, you haven't experienced yet.
01;11;45;07 - 01;11;45;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
01;11;45;27 - 01;12;03;15
Murray Dueck
Pretty sure. Of course, Lewis gets his thought out of The Chronicles of Narnia as one who loved the Desert Fathers further in and higher up as their children, through running through Narnia further and higher up. Yeah. And you know, we're talking about the divine goal, but the divine goal is what? It's a person.
01;12;03;17 - 01;12;04;01
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
01;12;04;01 - 01;12;23;21
Murray Dueck
Jesus Christ. It's a relation to Jesus Christ. I want to be a pure, spotless bride. Why? Because of Jesus Christ. Not right? I've already attained it, but I press on to the higher goal, as Paul says, to know him. Him Jesus Christ, not it.
01;12;23;23 - 01;12;25;19
Joshua Hoffert
Not yes, that's him.
01;12;25;21 - 01;12;47;08
Murray Dueck
This whole thought talk about, you know, of of this divine marriage and the ring, you know, said to me and said earlier, it's preparing us for something greater and right, and, and to and to realize that Christianity goes, yeah, there is something greater. How do you do it? Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
01;12;47;15 - 01;12;56;04
Murray Dueck
But it's not like, okay, now I better live under the law. That's not what they're talking about, right? They're talking about being being zealous for a person.
01;12;56;07 - 01;12;57;21
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. It's not a.
01;12;57;22 - 01;13;21;18
Murray Dueck
Question. The diet plan to lose weight. Okay. Now it's part of my new diet plan because that's right. It doesn't work that way. It's this journey of becoming. But but it has to be based on, on on a loving personal relationship. And that's the point of contemplative prayer. Everybody right there, that's the point of fasting is to is for the body, not to rule your soul.
01;13;21;20 - 01;13;42;05
Murray Dueck
It's for your spirit in hunger, for God to rule your soul, which is going to do it. Your desire. And I way home to stop at McDonald's or your hunger for God to pursue him. Where are we living out of and contemplative prayer in its essence, is to pursue Christ.
01;13;42;07 - 01;13;43;05
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
01;13;43;08 - 01;13;44;08
Murray Dueck
Anyway, well, there you go.
01;13;44;13 - 01;14;07;20
Joshua Hoffert
And that and and you know, as far as how you do it, you know, Murray Murray just kind of alluded to it's about the journey. Well, one of the things that we're going to pick up on next week is, the, the we'll say the schema of what it looks like to style your life in a way that pursues that.
01;14;07;22 - 01;14;12;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they're doing, you know, they're doing stuff. You know, there are practices.
01;14;13;00 - 01;14;14;24
Joshua Hoffert
There are practices right there.
01;14;14;24 - 01;14;32;06
Murray Dueck
Mike would like I always likes to say because you got to partner with Grace. So. Yeah. And this is another place a modern church kind of falls down. Well, once I'm saved, that's it. You know? right. But it's kind of. Father Mike would say you have to partner with Grace. It's like if the sun is shining outside, you want to get a suntan, you got to go outside.
01;14;32;09 - 01;14;33;24
Murray Dueck
You know? So.
01;14;33;26 - 01;14;36;02
Joshua Hoffert
So the question of how we do that, how.
01;14;36;02 - 01;14;36;17
Murray Dueck
Do you do?
01;14;36;19 - 01;14;40;00
Joshua Hoffert
This is our next episode.
01;14;40;03 - 01;14;41;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah, hopefully. Probably not.
01;14;41;09 - 01;14;54;23
Joshua Hoffert
What? Hopefully. Well, yeah. Hopefully multiple multiples. So with that said let's let's draw this one to a close. It's been wonderful spending time with you. And I hope that we left all of you listeners with a lot of food for thought. Yeah. And
01;14;54;26 - 01;14;57;27
Murray Dueck
And everybody you don't get all that. Don't don't worry about it.
01;14;58;01 - 01;15;09;29
Joshua Hoffert
Listen to it again and again and again. And you still won't get it because we don't get it. That was our that was our, our opening asterisks, our opening statement, our asterisks at the beginning is we don't really know what we're talking about. Right. Because you can't know what you're talking about.
01;15;10;01 - 01;15;17;10
Murray Dueck
So again, like when you don't get it, here's let's just say one last thought on that. That's brilliant. But are you hungry for it?
01;15;17;12 - 01;15;18;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. There you go.
01;15;18;05 - 01;15;41;27
Murray Dueck
Because if you're hungry for it, you're living out of your inner man. but if you need to know it in your head right away, I think just closed with Ephesians three. You know, people, Paul's in prison, people are freaking out. And he says, I pray God would strengthen you in the inner man, the part that of you that hungry right now, so that you would know how high and wide until Christ may live in your heart by faith.
01;15;42;23 - 01;16;01;18
Murray Dueck
we'll also talk about that, to know how high and wide and long and deep is the love of Christ that surpasses gnosis. Head knowledge that you may be filled to all the fullness of God. Human understanding does not necessarily get you full to the fullness of God. Walking in love and hungry gets you to the fullness of the fullness of God.
01;16;01;25 - 01;16;08;24
Murray Dueck
And so if that's what you're experiencing right now, enjoy it. Don't go. I don't understand it. That's okay.
01;16;08;26 - 01;16;09;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.
01;16;09;20 - 01;16;19;10
Murray Dueck
It'll come in time. That's right. That's the Lord's job. Yeah. And but realize, boy, there's a part of me that wants to pursue stoke that fire.
01;16;19;13 - 01;16;20;25
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
01;16;20;28 - 01;16;23;05
Murray Dueck
There you go. And then we'll talk about how to do that next week.
01;16;23;06 - 01;16;35;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. We'll talk about that next week. Yeah. Well everybody thanks for the thanks for coming along and tuning in. And Murray, thanks for spending time. It's been awesome. And until next week we will see you later.
01;16;35;11 - 01;16;38;01
Murray Dueck
Bless you everybody. Thanks for letting.
01;16;38;09 - 01;16;38;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.
01;16;39;14 - 01;16;59;04
Murray Dueck
bye.
01;16;59;07 - 01;16;59;14
Murray Dueck
You.