How do our models of redemption reflect scripture? And how do the contemplative authors talk about redemption? Is penal substitutionary atonement a thing? Join Josh and Murray as they dive into Saint Symeon, the early church fathers, encountering God, and the gulf between models of redemption based upon wrath and models based upon love.
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
How do our models of redemption reflect scripture? And how do the contemplative authors talk about redemption? Is penal substitutionary atonement a thing? Join Josh and Murray as they dive into Saint Symeon, the early church fathers, encountering God, and the gulf between models of redemption based upon wrath and models based upon love.
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
00;00;15;00 - 00;00;19;29
Murray Dueck
Do you.
00;00;20;01 - 00;00;31;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You know what's going on right now. I've got a flock of a few hundred birds in my field eating all the sowed weeds. I have no idea what to do about it. I'm like the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars.
00;00;31;29 - 00;00;35;09
Joshua Hoffert
It's like, give a scarecrow or make yourself insecure.
00;00;35;10 - 00;00;39;02
Murray Dueck
I was young until Jesse. Well, don't you want to live here? Get out here.
00;00;39;04 - 00;00;43;23
Joshua Hoffert
You want to hang yourself on a cross? Yeah.
00;00;43;25 - 00;00;59;09
Murray Dueck
Few years. Anyway, I had quite a good.
00;00;59;12 - 00;01;04;13
Murray Dueck
You. Welcome, everybody, to another episode of voices.
00;01;04;15 - 00;01;19;14
Joshua Hoffert
Voices from the desert. You know who moved this? As Murray was saying, it's like, it's like the old. Let's get ready to rumble.
00;01;19;17 - 00;01;24;17
Murray Dueck
That's right. I want to get in. I am going to do. I got to get away. His voice said, Guy.
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Joshua Hoffert
Oh my God, yeah. That's right. Are you ready to rumble with.
00;01;30;24 - 00;01;39;06
Murray Dueck
you know why not, right. notice there that I in my intro, I took voice from the desert and I made it go immediately into a how? That was new.
00;01;39;08 - 00;01;40;20
Joshua Hoffert
I was good. Yeah, that's.
00;01;40;21 - 00;01;41;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I was in new thing.
00;01;42;00 - 00;01;44;13
Joshua Hoffert
You know, Murray's got some tricks up his sleeve. Yeah.
00;01;44;16 - 00;01;45;09
Murray Dueck
A little bit creative.
00;01;45;09 - 00;01;49;12
Joshua Hoffert
He might be. He might be old, but he's not that old.
00;01;49;14 - 00;01;50;25
Murray Dueck
Old school anyway.
00;01;51;22 - 00;01;53;19
Joshua Hoffert
abstract, 80s.
00;01;53;19 - 00;01;53;28
Murray Dueck
You're good.
00;01;53;28 - 00;01;59;05
Joshua Hoffert
To me. the old old compared to me. That's what we're saying. Yes, yes.
00;01;59;05 - 00;02;00;19
Murray Dueck
At least in fashion.
00;02;00;21 - 00;02;17;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, well, there you go. That's right. Okay. Yeah. Your beard, your beard isn't isn't as righteous as mine is. So. Yeah. So I'm like I'm like, I'm like an Orthodox monk. Yeah. You're a Catholic monk. Pretty much difference between the two groups.
00;02;17;20 - 00;02;29;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah, I don't I you know, I don't know why it is. I don't grow a beard. I mean, I have, you know, the weather in the farming and the winter. Man having a beard is just. Boy, that helps your face. I got to tell you.
00;02;29;17 - 00;02;54;18
Joshua Hoffert
I will, but I will say that it is having having a beard like the one that I have when you walk outside in the dead of January and it's -20 out. it it's interesting what freezes into your beard. Oh, yeah. The reason about that, there's any if there's any moisture or anything you know, if you've just taking a shower, you've put some, you know, you put something in your beard or whatever.
00;02;54;21 - 00;02;58;28
Joshua Hoffert
It's it immediately will crystallize. So interest definitely happens.
00;02;58;28 - 00;03;02;23
Murray Dueck
Oh that's an experience I've not had happened yet. I'm gonna have to grow it just for that.
00;03;02;23 - 00;03;04;12
Joshua Hoffert
Just for that. That's right. That's.
00;03;04;13 - 00;03;10;19
Murray Dueck
How can I understand the Desert Fathers without knowing the, the accouterments of,
00;03;10;21 - 00;03;14;14
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah. That's right. Well, you know, I think I'm pretty sure it's the trouble.
00;03;14;14 - 00;03;20;09
Murray Dueck
In the desert. I highly doubt that they had frozen beards, but. But in Russia and in Romania, that's true.
00;03;20;09 - 00;03;42;15
Joshua Hoffert
That. Yes, that is very true. I think it was the Trappists, wasn't it, in, the, the but they would be a, version of the sister in order of the Trappists. The Trappists, I think are great good beer. Silence. Yeah. Well, they're characterized by not 100% silence, but they limit their conversations. If you visit a Trappist monastery, they they will.
00;03;42;15 - 00;04;03;10
Joshua Hoffert
They'll have a conversation with you. But it'll always be a short conversation. That's my experience, anyway. But they're all clean shaven. Really? Oh, yes. So that is, that is. And I think that's by I'm not an expert on any of these things, but, I think that's part of the order, like kind of the rule of life of the order.
00;04;03;13 - 00;04;19;27
Murray Dueck
Really, because the Orthodox guy, I think I told you that it's true. I've read it. They said that this one monk, why did you, you know, how did you come to a life of prayer? And he says, Satan, say, don't you pray? Yeah. Because God is bugging me all the time, right?
00;04;19;29 - 00;04;20;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.
00;04;21;01 - 00;04;28;12
Murray Dueck
And the other one was they asked this other mug, how did you come to a life of prayer? He goes unshaven, young man.
00;04;28;14 - 00;04;31;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Yes. and.
00;04;31;05 - 00;04;38;19
Murray Dueck
That's why, that's why monasteries of the East made sure everyone had beards. There's, there there's great.
00;04;38;19 - 00;05;03;28
Joshua Hoffert
There are great. you're just making me think of some of the, you know, the guys who show up to their to their fathers in the desert father movement going, the father. I no longer struggle with the passions. And they say, and the fathers say hope. Pray that God brings that yes back to you. Right? And God and if you if you no longer struggle, you know, no longer need to be saved, you know, oh.
00;05;04;03 - 00;05;14;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah, we're going to have to talk about that whole difference between what they're thinking and where they kick, because we were like, oh man, I believe I've got the word struggle. I must be holy. And they're like, what is it?
00;05;14;09 - 00;05;25;29
Joshua Hoffert
It's it. I think one of them he says, that's because your mouth has become like an open door. The passions go in and out without any resistance. Oh, oh, that.
00;05;25;29 - 00;05;28;18
Murray Dueck
Horrible little passions, everybody, they mean.
00;05;29;10 - 00;05;29;26
Joshua Hoffert
although you.
00;05;30;01 - 00;05;31;22
Murray Dueck
Learn apathy and.
00;05;31;22 - 00;05;52;18
Joshua Hoffert
A proportion, the bitterness. One contemporary author writing about the Desert Fathers. John. Christian savages or something. How you ever say his name calls that he says that the the the passions were are basically our inner wounds, and and that the, the purpose of the spiritual life is to bring healing to those which we're going to talk about.
00;05;52;18 - 00;06;17;27
Joshua Hoffert
But yeah, yeah, pride, lust, greed, anger, all of these. You know, it's the interesting thing. And this is what we love about studying this kind of stuff is that I think in my, in my growing up context, you know, church life and all of that, the, the kind of the ideas that I was given in, in this sense are, are that those, maybe we'd call them vices.
00;06;17;27 - 00;06;36;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right. they'd be another term that we would use sin. We would, they would. Things are static, right? It's like with anger exists. I don't I wasn't so much taught that there's a reason behind that anger. That's an inner wound. Yeah, yeah, I was taught that. Just don't be angry. Right. And.
00;06;36;26 - 00;06;49;25
Murray Dueck
Absolutely. And and it's more you and we're going to talk about this some more, but we can talk about a little bit right now too. And you know, it, it's interesting because you're, you kind of get it in your head that this is all very judicial. You know.
00;06;49;28 - 00;06;50;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;06;50;09 - 00;07;07;28
Murray Dueck
There's a reason, you know, the Catholics go to confession because, man, you're going to get judged if you don't. So you better, you know, you better confess. So and I think for us Mennonites, we picked it up. You know, just don't talk about it just. Yeah. You know, and I mean, I remember in the early days because I guess the vineyard was doing it.
00;07;07;28 - 00;07;20;18
Murray Dueck
My Mennonite church started to do and I was 18, 19 at the time, ministry time up front. And I, you know, they call all these people up and like, I wonder what's wrong with them, man. Oh, man. Good thing I don't have to go up there because.
00;07;20;19 - 00;07;21;19
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right.
00;07;21;21 - 00;07;37;17
Murray Dueck
I'm perfect. I'm doing real good with Jesus. I mean, going up there, I thought, wow, boy, that's a confession. You're screwed up like, that boy. Now, do I see it so absolutely different, right. But I would look at people and go, wow. I mean, what what are they doing in their life that they got to confess? Like, who?
00;07;37;19 - 00;07;38;14
Joshua Hoffert
So, I mean.
00;07;38;14 - 00;07;50;09
Murray Dueck
So because I follow the law and but, you know, even even, Julian of Norwich, who I, I love her writing everybody. She's great. And, you know, ancora anchorite from 1200.
00;07;50;12 - 00;07;52;24
Joshua Hoffert
I think, I think the 14th century.
00;07;52;24 - 00;07;54;05
Murray Dueck
So I really. Oh, that much older.
00;07;54;05 - 00;07;56;24
Joshua Hoffert
Hey, I could be, it's somewhere in there, though, but for sure.
00;07;56;24 - 00;08;00;18
Murray Dueck
I mean, I'm just going to give the quote, I got the quote right, but I don't have. Yeah, yeah. Right. Which sucks.
00;08;00;19 - 00;08;01;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. It's somewhere in.
00;08;01;16 - 00;08;06;13
Murray Dueck
There. But but she said that when God sees your sin, he sees your pain.
00;08;06;15 - 00;08;07;29
Joshua Hoffert
Oh interesting.
00;08;07;29 - 00;08;26;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I would agree. That's good enough to say what God sees your sin. He sees your pain. Yeah. And I just. Well, I mean, that's already such a a, you know, I mean, we could talk all day about. Okay, what do they mean by that? And that's such a beautiful statement of the compassionate heart of a father. Right.
00;08;26;04 - 00;08;56;27
Joshua Hoffert
They're warm and and the see the sometimes what we think the, the the purpose of the spiritual life is to produce a sinless person and and that in the and that I get at least that was how I was. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I gleaned in my in my cultural context growing up. Right. Is that if if I was just spiritual enough, I would no longer struggle with lust or pride or greed or envy or anything like that.
00;08;56;29 - 00;09;16;23
Joshua Hoffert
And then and again, those are those were static experiences within me that I just needed to resist long enough that eventually they. I'm I'm a one guy. When I was talking about it, one guy who was a a little more advanced than I was, he was still young, a young man, but a little more advanced that I was said, well, this is how I think of it is sin is like a a rabid dog.
00;09;16;23 - 00;09;19;11
Joshua Hoffert
And the less I feed it, the more it.
00;09;19;13 - 00;09;22;17
Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah, I've heard that exactly like that. I've heard that in the past. Yeah.
00;09;22;17 - 00;09;47;14
Joshua Hoffert
And and it's not that actually. There's a, there's an inner wound, whether it's trauma, whether it's rejection, whether it's neglect, whatever. There's an inner wound that actually needs to be healed. And the reason why I act out and lash out in these ways is because of the inner wound. It's this static sin residing within me that as long as I don't feed it, it will eventually starve its way out.
00;09;47;14 - 00;09;59;00
Joshua Hoffert
And the Desert Fathers, when the. Like I said earlier, when the disciples come and go, we're no longer struggling with the passions. The father says, actually, you're just not aware they exist. That's it. That's the problem.
00;09;59;00 - 00;10;05;15
Murray Dueck
And yeah, everybody like like if you. Okay, what do you mean by that? Like, okay everybody fast for three days and get yourself stuck.
00;10;05;15 - 00;10;06;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah that's right. Yeah. See what.
00;10;06;29 - 00;10;07;11
Murray Dueck
Comes out of.
00;10;07;11 - 00;10;12;09
Joshua Hoffert
Your heart. Yes I will see. Yeah. See if perfection is still there. Right. Because it's so.
00;10;12;12 - 00;10;30;03
Murray Dueck
Is that when everything's going well for us, we go, well, I must be doing great because I'm not struggling with anything. You know, I remember money get cut out in traffic. Let's not talk to you for three weeks. See if you're still in. Good. Because, yeah, under those contacts, what comes out of the heart as a desert, right.
00;10;30;05 - 00;10;42;11
Murray Dueck
You know, and Jesus would say himself, it's not the outward things that, you know, defile you. It's the things that come out of the heart right now. So they're looking at it so differently, and then that needs to be healed. So, anyway, yeah.
00;10;42;11 - 00;11;01;05
Joshua Hoffert
I had I had a roommate one time who we were in a ministry school together, and we were, assigned to reading. And the reading was a book called Breaking Free of Rejection. And, he read the first little bit of the book, and then I was in the room with him, and he threw it across the room, and he said the book.
00;11;01;05 - 00;11;24;18
Joshua Hoffert
Stupid. I don't struggle with rejection. And it was. And he rejected that book. Exactly. It was many years later where he realized just how deeply he did struggle with rejection and that's the open. That's the open mouth. That's like an open door that passions. Yeah. Out there, they're not even checked. And this is this is when people, you know, I hear people say, well, I don't like I've, I've conquered fear.
00;11;24;18 - 00;11;34;15
Joshua Hoffert
I don't I don't struggle with fear anymore. I don't even remember what fear feels like. I've heard people say that. And it's like, well, no, that's impossible. That just means that you've become desensitized to it.
00;11;34;17 - 00;11;42;20
Murray Dueck
And, well, why did you, go outside and just do some street evangelism? When you see someone walking by, see if they need any physical healing, and see if you can do it?
00;11;42;23 - 00;11;43;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;11;43;17 - 00;11;45;18
Murray Dueck
So that was often the situation anyway.
00;11;45;18 - 00;11;46;17
Joshua Hoffert
I'm sure were.
00;11;46;19 - 00;11;47;20
Murray Dueck
Like, I can do that easy.
00;11;47;20 - 00;12;10;10
Joshua Hoffert
But yeah. So if anybody if you have lost the sense of what that struggle is, that doesn't mean that you've matured it. Typically the early fathers would say you've desensitized yourself to what the struggle itself is because the the what the spiritual life produces. And this is something that took me a long time to understand the spiritual life didn't produce in me a state of perfection.
00;12;10;10 - 00;12;39;06
Joshua Hoffert
It's produced in me a state of humility. and so now where I go, like I was reading Psalm 41, I've been meditating on Psalm 41, where David, ostensibly the author of Psalm 41, goes, heal me. heal me, Lord, for I've sinned against you. He says that right. and and then he describes a litany of accusations that people have lobbied against him.
00;12;39;09 - 00;12;57;10
Joshua Hoffert
Right. My enemy says this. My enemy says this man. And he says, even my friend has turned on me. Right? He says, I'm actually I'm just going to turn I'm a Bible right in front of me. So, because I'm nice and spiritual, you know, yeah. He says, he says, be gracious to me, heal my soul, for I have sinned against you.
00;12;57;10 - 00;13;14;28
Joshua Hoffert
My enemies speak evil against me. They say when you die, his name will perish. He comes to see me. He, my friend, speak or my enemy speaks falsehood. So I've got these accusations against me. I've got people wishing ill against me. And he says, even my close friend who I trusted, who ate my bread, he's turned against me.
00;13;15;01 - 00;13;37;11
Joshua Hoffert
So David, David says, heal me. Here's all the ways I've been hurt, right? My enemies, accusations, my friends, my friends turning against me. All the things they've said. They're wishing ill on me. Heal me. But the the real so. So the issue within me of sin is an issue. An issue of healing and the sin. The lashing out isn't against them or myself.
00;13;37;13 - 00;14;10;13
Joshua Hoffert
It's against you. Right? And so David doesn't say, take care of my enemies or convict my friend. He accuses himself, he goes, heal me, for I've sinned against you. And so he doesn't. He has every reason to externalize the problem, but he brings it to himself. Right? And this is where the the the we were talking last week, about getting to the point where we can talk about the practicals of the spiritual life when it comes to bridal intimacy, and we're going to do that today.
00;14;10;13 - 00;14;40;12
Joshua Hoffert
But that's one of the that we're just I'm just giving you a preview, right. That's one of the, one of the the delights of growing in, in inner humility and awareness and sensitivity to the wooing of the Holy Spirit is that I'm actually I don't think other people are the problem. I think I'm the problem. Yeah. And and so I'm actually more willing to take responsibility for my actions and say, I actually, I, I need to deal with my own self, my own self.
00;14;40;14 - 00;15;04;02
Joshua Hoffert
And it's my inner wounds that are driving these things. I'm responding to rejection because not because they rejected me, but because rejection resides within me. Yeah. And that's what your point. This is a Moses, the Ethiopian, right, saying, when people kick him out of a service because he's black, he's a, another ethnicity and he goes, why are you sick?
00;15;04;02 - 00;15;04;28
Joshua Hoffert
My soul.
00;15;05;02 - 00;15;06;08
Murray Dueck
You. That's such a beautiful quote.
00;15;06;08 - 00;15;08;28
Joshua Hoffert
I'm right. Yeah. Why are you. Why are you sick, Mike?
00;15;08;29 - 00;15;10;04
Murray Dueck
Acting crazy?
00;15;10;04 - 00;15;18;08
Joshua Hoffert
You're acting crazy. That's right. Rather be thankful that God sent you a doctor in the form of these accusations.
00;15;18;11 - 00;15;19;12
Murray Dueck
To reveal what's in your.
00;15;19;12 - 00;15;20;13
Joshua Hoffert
Heart so.
00;15;20;13 - 00;15;22;08
Murray Dueck
That you may see it and be healed.
00;15;22;11 - 00;15;22;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.
00;15;22;27 - 00;15;42;14
Murray Dueck
You know, I'll give you guys an example of that person, one that that might fit because it's worth. I mean, how about this? First, because we were talking about this beforehand. Like where do we find that in scripture? Like when you when you see Peter at the Last Supper and he goes, Lord, I will never deny you, right, even if everybody else will.
00;15;42;16 - 00;15;56;16
Murray Dueck
And Jesus looks at him and says, you know, when the crow, you know, when the rooster crow three times, you will deny me. And then he said, makes this weird statement. Now when you've turned back, no, I prayed that your faith will not fail.
00;15;56;23 - 00;15;57;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;15;57;03 - 00;15;59;04
Murray Dueck
And when you turn back, strengthen your brothers.
00;15;59;08 - 00;16;00;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.
00;16;00;04 - 00;16;03;00
Murray Dueck
Well, we know we know what he does. He denies Christ.
00;16;03;02 - 00;16;03;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;16;03;21 - 00;16;13;10
Murray Dueck
So what does he mean? I pray that your faith will not fail. So Jesus does not see him screwing up as a failure of his faith? Not. That's a big deal, right? I mean.
00;16;13;13 - 00;16;14;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;16;14;12 - 00;16;33;23
Murray Dueck
But at the same time he says, well, when you when you fall, strengthen your brothers. Right. So, so in other words, he's going to fall, but his faith isn't going to feel like, what? What the heck is that all about? Because if you're performance orientated and it's about doing the right thing, it looks pretty obvious that his faith fails, right?
00;16;33;25 - 00;16;52;16
Murray Dueck
Well, when we flip over to, the reinstatement of Peter and I'll get maybe Josh, you might want to read that verse because you got it there. It's really a member. You know, he does deny Christ. He swears he doesn't even know the man. That rooster crows. Jesus looks right at him, and Peter leaves, weeping. So his heart is exposed.
00;16;52;19 - 00;17;18;23
Murray Dueck
I mean, what's what? What's at all about? What's getting exposed there? And and we're talking about pride and fear and, you know, under pressure. But it's interesting. And then when we see this exposure and we take that to Peter's recommissioning and, you know, he sees Jesus and he jumps out of the boat. Right. And, I remember John Paul Jackson said, I think maybe it was he was kind of like, oh, no, I got a face.
00;17;18;23 - 00;17;31;25
Murray Dueck
But it's you've now there's Jesus at first. Right? And, but it's interesting when Jesus says, Peter, do you love me? Jesus uses the word agape, yo. And Peter responds, you know I love you. Uses the word slow.
00;17;32;01 - 00;17;32;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right.
00;17;32;25 - 00;17;36;22
Murray Dueck
And then Jesus, you know, since, Josh, he's got his Bible.
00;17;36;22 - 00;17;57;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I got it. Right. I'll read it, I'll read it and then murder you can you've got some, some good thoughts on that. So it's John 21 is the is the passage. yeah. Just a few verses starting or 15. so when they'd finished breakfast, always a great time to have a conversation. Jesus said to Simon Peter, Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?
00;17;58;01 - 00;18;10;24
Joshua Hoffert
And that's the word agape. And Jesus said to him, or Peter said to him, yes, Lord, you know that I love you. He said. And Jesus said to him, tend my lambs. And so that's the one. Peter responds, that's the word for Leo.
00;18;10;24 - 00;18;11;10
Murray Dueck
For Leo.
00;18;11;17 - 00;18;29;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So then verse 16, he said, do it again a second time. Simon, son of John, do you love me? Agape? He said to him, Peter said to him, yes, Lord, you know that I love you. Follow that. Jesus said to him, Shepherd my sheep. Verse 17 he said to him, the third time, Simon, son of John, do you love me?
00;18;29;20 - 00;18;51;04
Joshua Hoffert
Follow. That's Jesus saying, follow. Yeah, flip it around. Yes. Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, do you love me? Follow. And he said to him, Lord, you know all the, you know all things. You know that I love you. follow. Jesus said to him, ten my sheep.
00;18;51;06 - 00;18;54;12
Murray Dueck
So maybe give us a good definition of those two words, if you don't mind.
00;18;54;15 - 00;18;58;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Look, I think, Leo, I think a a rough definition.
00;18;58;21 - 00;18;59;19
Murray Dueck
A rough definition. Yes.
00;18;59;21 - 00;19;32;27
Joshua Hoffert
Of agape and philia would be agape. A is, selfless love. Yeah. All right. It's like pure true, authentic love. Love for love sake. Fellatio is more like brotherly affection. And, so it's it's it is. Both are a form of love. And this is where in, in the difference between the the way that we use the word love.
00;19;32;29 - 00;19;54;22
Joshua Hoffert
Because because, Murray, you said before we went live, I can say I love my cat, I love my phone, I love my house, and I love my wife. Yeah. Right. Now, when I say the word for love, each each way that I use that in the context of every sentence means something different. I can say I love Murray, but that's a different love than when I say I love my wife.
00;19;54;27 - 00;19;57;00
Murray Dueck
I love you can hamburgers?
00;19;57;02 - 00;19;57;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.
00;19;57;18 - 00;19;58;27
Murray Dueck
It's not the same.
00;19;59;00 - 00;20;02;11
Joshua Hoffert
No, not at all. Yeah. What do you mean?
00;20;02;15 - 00;20;08;09
Murray Dueck
You can almost say to your friends, your wife? No. And you say you love me. Are you joking? Agape a or filet like.
00;20;08;09 - 00;20;25;02
Joshua Hoffert
Well that right within. Yeah. And then within the Greek language they had ways of separating the, those things out. And then, you know, a husband and wife would say that we're going to make love, you know, to imply. Yeah. Oh yeah. See, of course. Right. So there's a whole other way of using the term love in that sense.
00;20;25;02 - 00;20;49;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And so we just use the same word to mean everything. Yeah. Yeah. And, and in the Greek there has these layers of meaning. And there's what, there's I think there's four different Greek words for love I think. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. Maybe eros is another one. Agape fellatio. And I can't remember the, the other one, but and we talked about divine maniacal eros.
00;20;49;16 - 00;20;58;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Right. And the, the lust in passionate kind of love, but that's, we're probably going to jump into that in a little bit, but so.
00;20;58;24 - 00;21;12;14
Murray Dueck
So I just wanted to say with this, like, like everyone, like you, a couple of things here that are, that are really important and I appreciate, you know, your thoughts here too, but you, you look at because I know I'm cutting you off a little bit here after you read that, but I don't know.
00;21;12;16 - 00;21;13;06
Joshua Hoffert
You go ahead.
00;21;13;08 - 00;21;31;11
Murray Dueck
Well, if we just keep in mind what happened at the Last Supper that Jesus knows when you turn back, strengthen your brothers. Well, what's he doing right now? He's commissioning him to strengthen his brothers. And and he's helping him turn back. I mean, so this moment is fulfilling a little bit what he said at the Last Supper there, but okay.
00;21;31;11 - 00;21;53;06
Murray Dueck
So how does this work then, that he said, I pray that your faith will not fail you. But but when you turn back, strengthen your brothers. And and the point here is, this is how I see it. So you could argue with me. But how do those two things live together in a judicial mindset? Well, they can't they can't live together in a judicial mindset because when you fail, you deserve punishment.
00;21;53;08 - 00;22;13;29
Murray Dueck
You failed. You didn't have faith. You screwed up, therefore. But but see, Jesus isn't doing that. Jesus is like again, you know, I pray your faith won't fail. Okay, let's take that meaning. You know something inside Peter's not going to fail. But when you turn back, strengthen your brother. So it's kind of like this, Peter, you know what?
00;22;14;02 - 00;22;36;17
Murray Dueck
When he makes that statement, God, even if everyone else fails, you all never turn away. How about this, Peter? You got some pride issues. You're pretty cocky. AKA rooster crowing what he admits is right. You're going to need to look at that because that's kind of in your heart. And once you see it, I'm going to be able to heal that and you'll have some humility.
00;22;36;20 - 00;22;55;25
Murray Dueck
And then I'm going to reestablish you because. So Jesus could be looking at that whole thing as a medical issue, right? Instead of a judicial issue, which is what we do to ourselves. Oh, no, I screwed up. And now God, maybe the Lord saying to, you know what? We need to look at the root cause of this. We need to get at this.
00;22;55;28 - 00;23;19;18
Murray Dueck
And you know what? That's Peter. And I'm equal to the most eminent apostles. And in the end, I'm chief of sinners. Right. Medical issue. I needed this thorn in the flesh because I'm a pretty prideful guy. And, you know, it's my pride is hindering working out my own salvation, the healing of my own soul.
00;23;19;20 - 00;23;20;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;23;20;25 - 00;23;43;07
Murray Dueck
And, Peter, you see that with Peter, he can't see you gap you because he has so much guilt. He's making a do you do the judicial issue? Look what I did. Look what I did. Jesus. I have no right to say agape. What you want, right. what's Jesus say, Peter? Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. It's how I see you that matters, not how you see yourself.
00;23;43;09 - 00;23;43;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;23;43;23 - 00;24;05;06
Murray Dueck
And when we take our wounding to negate ourselves, how do we see the problem is here? Peter can't step into a deeper form of love with Christ. You can't even say the words out loud because he's letting his past, his wounding, define even his level of love with God. Right? Right. And Jesus is. And this is a heart healing issue.
00;24;05;09 - 00;24;24;04
Murray Dueck
And you know what? This isn't the last time Peter does this either. In acts ten, he gets the revelation right? Gentiles in the church by Galatians three, he's denying, Gentiles and old eating with with you Jew. And Paul's going to rebuke him. Do you see his face in front of everybody? So it's the same, you know, acts 15.
00;24;24;04 - 00;25;06;03
Murray Dueck
He's bragging. The Gentiles came into the church by my doing. And then, you know, there's a pride again. And then there is, you know, acts 15. Then there's Galatians three. And so this, this isn't even the end of it with him. This is a a long standing issue. But does it negate him for ministry? No, but I would say back to, Julian of Norwich, when God sees your sin, he sees your pain, you know, and that's what we're looking at with Peter and, and, and, you know, again, the church was supposed to be and it's some of the time, maybe a lot of time, a place of healing the soul rather than a
00;25;06;03 - 00;25;09;02
Murray Dueck
place of I must measure up or else.
00;25;09;05 - 00;25;10;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Right.
00;25;10;13 - 00;25;11;18
Murray Dueck
Anyway, there's my rant.
00;25;11;18 - 00;25;34;27
Joshua Hoffert
Well, well. So let's say let's say this what Jesus is doing with Peter, you know, coming, coming, this, this. Because again, we're on this kick with talking about bridal intimacy in the bridal paradigm. What Jesus is doing with Peter is bringing him back to the place. He's he's forging something within Peter of selfless love.
00;25;35;00 - 00;25;35;19
Murray Dueck
Yes.
00;25;35;21 - 00;25;58;15
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So he's bringing he's bringing Peter back to himself, and he's actually building something within Peter, by the way, that he he talks with Peter right now. Do you love me not do I love you? Right. That's obvious. Yeah. You love me, right? Do you love me? And then and then as a side note to that, the whole reason for service is because of love, not because.
00;25;58;15 - 00;26;20;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yes, that's. Do you love me? If you love me, go do the thing. Because I've encountered his love, now I do. There's a there's a, there's almost sometimes a misunderstanding. When you talk with people about encountering the love, the love of the father and and being centralized in that, it's almost like they think, well, this mean does this mean we just sit around and have encounters all day?
00;26;20;14 - 00;26;42;15
Joshua Hoffert
We don't do anything? Well, no, obviously not. If if we've encountered love, we can't help but be motivated to go share that love. And then the way that we do that is the way we are uniquely called gifted and, you know, commissioned by the father to do that. So, yeah, if you love me, go do this stuff. So anyway, so Jesus is forging something within Peter and what Jesus is forging within Peter.
00;26;42;17 - 00;27;07;16
Joshua Hoffert
He's he is establishing thing. He's establishing within Peter what's already the content of the being of Jesus. And I, we said this last, the last episode that the, the proof of the cross is the proof that the content of the divine Being is pure love. Yeah. This is what the this is the impure agape. A selfless love is so,
00;27;07;18 - 00;27;35;04
Joshua Hoffert
And so Jesus forging something within Peter, what he's forging within Peter is the divine love that's within the Godhead itself, that's proved by the cross, the content of his being right through the end of his short life is love. And and Peter at that point is, he has proved that the content of his being is not love the content of he you know, he's ready to die for national pride.
00;27;35;04 - 00;27;57;14
Joshua Hoffert
He's ready to go out in a blaze of glory. Yeah. Sort out right. Is these proved that the content of his being is not so Jesus is bringing him back to himself and, and we know, Jobe says it's a very interesting verse in Jobe seven where it says that, God has set his mark. The job says this.
00;27;57;14 - 00;28;16;19
Joshua Hoffert
You've set your mark, you've made me your target, right? You've made me your target, and you've set your heart upon mankind. What is man that you've chosen him. Why have you set your heart upon him? You've made me your target, right? And you come and you visit mankind every morning, and you test him every moment. So God has chosen mankind, right?
00;28;16;19 - 00;28;39;09
Joshua Hoffert
He's set his sights on mankind. And he's he's. He has envisioned mankind as the recipient of his heart. So as you place your heart upon me. So mankind is going to receive the heart of God being the nature of God, right? Which is the content of his being, which in the early Church Fathers would call the divine hypostasis, the divine hypostasis is the content of the being of God, which is pure love.
00;28;39;12 - 00;29;01;18
Joshua Hoffert
Mankind is intended to receive that divine hypostasis, to become that divine hypostasis, and the content of that is pure love, which, if you look through the early Church Fathers, especially the Desert Fathers, looking back to someone like Dorotheus of Gaza, you know, in the Desert Fathers tradition or Isaiah of Cetus, the the natural state of humanity is love.
00;29;01;20 - 00;29;31;23
Joshua Hoffert
This is I mean, God as much says this when mankind is alone in the garden, right? That the natural state of of mankind is to give and receive love. Seeing that he was alone, he created a perfect helper, Eve, for him. But meaning now he has the recipient of love and the giver of love, because mankind, the the intention for mankind is to be the natural state of humanity is to be love.
00;29;31;25 - 00;29;59;03
Joshua Hoffert
Now we've gone and mucked up the image. you know, we've marred it up almost beyond recognition at this point. But the natural state of humanity is love. And Isaiah says, things like this. He goes, desire is the normal state of the mind. For without desire for God, no love exists. So we think, oh, desire is a thing that I need to destroy within me so I can reach a pure spiritual state.
00;29;59;05 - 00;30;23;22
Joshua Hoffert
In fact, the actual state of humanity is that desire is pointed towards God. And this is where we talked about the, the state of, the kind of eros love, that the lustful passion of mankind is the twisting of the natural state of mankind, which is desire. Yeah. Which is the content of God's being. God. Jesus says this, right?
00;30;23;22 - 00;30;48;00
Joshua Hoffert
That. But for the joy set before him, right? The natural desire of his being was joy and love for the for the for the father and for the the creation of the father, or all of creation. So Jesus is bringing Peter back into this place of what does it look like to be truly human, what it looks like to be truly human is to be pure love.
00;30;48;03 - 00;31;14;08
Joshua Hoffert
When you're a being of pure love, what do you do? You take care of the people around you because you love them. But I mean, it's it's it's, you know, it's a roundabout way of saying this is really simple, guys. Right. The natural state of humanity is to love the natural state of humanity. Like like the the Desert Fathers would say this, and this is Isaiah Mesquita, specifically one to a very influential desert father.
00;31;14;10 - 00;31;50;11
Joshua Hoffert
He says anger as well is the normal state of the mind because lacking a anger, we're unable to achieve purity. and, unless we're angered by all which is planted in us, by the adversary. so, so anger against unrighteousness gives us the energy to pursue righteousness. So it's like we're we've just got this idea of the spiritual life that it's supposed to produce, a person that has no struggle verses what's actually laid out by Jesus and what's actually laid out in the scriptures.
00;31;50;14 - 00;32;18;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And and this is the the place of encountering the love of God being formed by the love of God and not inventing systems that negate the love of God. Like, like, Psalm. Psalm five says, I'll actually I'll just bring it up because it's so fascinating when it comes to, you know, our, our contemporary models for, evangelism.
00;32;19;03 - 00;32;44;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right. A contemporary model for evangelism, at least in the last, maybe, maybe less so today. But, you know, you still hear about it today is if you died tonight, where would you go? Where the gospel is characterized as a, a, a holy God that is full of wrath because mankind has contravened this holy God's directives and all have offended God, all of this kind of stuff.
00;32;44;20 - 00;33;10;11
Joshua Hoffert
Right? And I said in controversial tones last episode that one of the reasons why we got a theological system that extra that expands on the anger of God versus the love of God and capitalizes on the anger of God, is because we was developed by people that never encountered the love of God. and or at least still needed some more encounters with the love of God in that moment on the beach.
00;33;10;13 - 00;33;20;09
Murray Dueck
I have, I know one guy that always he likes to use that you know that you can tell somebody he's a spiritual orphan for how they go to law or driven.
00;33;20;09 - 00;33;49;02
Joshua Hoffert
This. Yes. All right. So. So, Psalm five, verses seven says, but as for me, by thine and by thy, by your abundant loving kindness, I will enter your house. So how do I get into the house now? Because I became so fearful of you, but because I saw how abundantly loving, how this is the, the, Hebrew word has said, which is the loving, tender mercy of God.
00;33;49;03 - 00;34;11;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So by his loving kindness, I enter his house because I've caught a vision of his loving kindness. I know the house is always open for me. Amen. And it says, now the very next verse is, And, at thy holy temple I will bow in reverence. Right? And so I come in because of loving kindness.
00;34;11;15 - 00;34;28;17
Joshua Hoffert
But I find a supreme being who is full of majesty. Right. So? So it doesn't say I come in because I'm so afraid of him. I come in because I've found that he's so loving and so. Yeah, right. Which is a fascinating flipping on its head of our present theological systems. Yeah.
00;34;28;19 - 00;34;50;07
Murray Dueck
And and maybe I'll just quickly go over this, everyone, if you're thinking about this, this, you know, it's important again, I mean, I guess you could sum up again, you know, it's that that, you know, Jesus would say it's it's the stuff that comes out of you that defiles the heart. You know? And, and most of the time, we're not aware of what's really in there unless we're under pressure.
00;34;50;09 - 00;35;09;04
Murray Dueck
And, it was interesting. I don't know if I've said this before, but I'll just throw this out and I really want to just mention Abraham here quickly. But yeah, I was sitting down with father Mike and this, monk, you can watch his videos. He's on in I own, you know, now he has this little hermitage up there, and I own a little monastery.
00;35;09;04 - 00;35;29;27
Murray Dueck
Father's Simeon. Anyway, you type in Orthodox monk Iona or Mull? Mull. It'll come up. So we sit down for coffee, and he's not looking me in the eye, you know, because he's never met a charismatic before. He doesn't know what to do with me because he's never met a non orthodox guy. So he's like, so finally, I guess he warms up, you know, and he goes, so tell me about yourself.
00;35;29;27 - 00;35;48;05
Murray Dueck
Tell me about I've never met, you know, I go, wow, you know, this is what we believe. And I must have said something about church splits. And he goes, wait, wait wait, stop. Truth split. What is that? I said, well, I think I just went through one or something. And he goes, well, you know, in our culture, you know, we we come to, a problem about vision or lack of money or something.
00;35;48;05 - 00;36;06;05
Murray Dueck
And, and one group thinks God is saying one thing, another thing, God saying something else. And we go our separate ways. Because what you could do that you could, you could, you could disagree with somebody and claim that's the will of God. Oh, look how beautiful it goes in my church. I'm always wrong.
00;36;07;25 - 00;36;08;02
Joshua Hoffert
it's.
00;36;08;02 - 00;36;24;09
Murray Dueck
Like in our church would stuff comes up. You're supposed to look at your heart and see what, what's motivating you would have pride or anger? Lust. Could you believe, have a good theology where you're allowed to blame somebody else and consider it Holy ghost? That's beautiful. So wonderful. Well, that would be so easy.
00;36;24;12 - 00;36;26;12
Joshua Hoffert
So of,
00;36;26;15 - 00;36;41;02
Murray Dueck
We just all had a good laugh about that. But that's what we do, right? Because we make it external rather than what's coming up in our heart. And, and and again, you know, that's what we're talking about, Peter and love and all this. But if you don't believe me, go look at Abraham. Go look at Abraham. did super quick.
00;36;41;02 - 00;37;02;14
Murray Dueck
Just read it through yourself. he gets his call. I think it's Genesis 12. Could be Genesis 17. Off he goes, right? He gets a word of the Lord. Here's your vision, you know, go to the land I'm setting you. So up he goes. Well, and then Pharaoh takes his wife and he says, hey, you know, you know, better for you, Sarah, because if they, you know, if they see we're together, they're going to kill me.
00;37;02;16 - 00;37;21;29
Murray Dueck
So fear motivation, right? So he, you know, then God rescues her. Does God rebuke Abraham? Not at all. He just gives him the vision. Again, you're descendants will be like the number of this God starts, doesn't say anything. And then, they decide to have Ishmael, right? Hey, you know, not having a kid, this is God's fault. You know, Sarah kind of blames the Lord.
00;37;23;11 - 00;37;40;20
Murray Dueck
you know how that goes. God doesn't rebuke him. He gives him another promise. And then a little bit later on, we do the same thing. Abimelech. Sarah is about 90. I don't know, she must have been pretty hot. Or Ben looks either bad and he says, hey, you know, just take her and go, you know, because because he doesn't want to get killed.
00;37;40;22 - 00;37;54;15
Murray Dueck
And then a and here's a big one. God says to a believer like, you know, you, you're going to die because you know, you've taken this guy's wife because my hands are unclean. I haven't touched you because I know you have not sinned against me. Now return his wife, because that man's a prophet and he will pray for you.
00;37;54;16 - 00;38;16;17
Murray Dueck
You will live. Now, wait a minute. Abimelech didn't sin. Abraham did. But Abraham gets the pray for Abimelech that he should live. Shouldn't that be the other way around there? Because, you know. And then it says, Abraham was a prophet. He you know, he prays and God opens a womb of all the women in the Bible tells because he clothes him, because right now, I mean, right there.
00;38;16;17 - 00;38;32;27
Murray Dueck
I mean, God's not punishing Abraham. And then he gives them a promising and he does not rebuke him. I'm not saying, God, you know, we got to work on our issues. But here's the thing. So finally, after all of this, we get to Isaac being sacrificed, and Abraham makes this different choice instead of trying to get out of it.
00;38;32;29 - 00;38;54;14
Murray Dueck
Which or I think Jacob learned this pattern by the way. I think it's a family thing. he goes, you know what? God will supply another way. I mean, this is a child of destiny. He's waited for. Now he's willing. He does not have a fear reaction. He had a fury action with Pharaoh. He had a fear reaction around Ishmael, yet a fear reaction around Abimelech.
00;38;54;17 - 00;39;12;14
Murray Dueck
It's gone. It took 25 or 30 years to get it out of him. But now he's not going to go sideways. And you know the Lord does that with us, that as we walk with him, things push our buttons, stuff comes up and Jesus, all things will work out together for good. Who? Those who believe. What's he doing?
00;39;12;19 - 00;39;28;00
Murray Dueck
He's healing our soul as we walk with him through life circumstance. You knows what's in there. Yeah. You love us the way we are. Just like he never rebuked Abraham said, I'm not going to be your father anymore. Screw you. I'm done with all your you know, he's like, you know, I'm going to work with this. I'm going to put you back together.
00;39;28;00 - 00;39;48;07
Murray Dueck
But but it takes, you know, the old saying is, if something's pushing your buttons, you got a button to push, and God wants that button. So, you know, you know, we look at the stuff coming up in Peter's heart, in his circumstance, he denies Christ. God uses it. You look at the stuff with Abraham, what comes up in his heart under pressure?
00;39;48;13 - 00;40;01;05
Murray Dueck
God uses it and and but again, we're looking at medical conditions as a result of the fall that needs healing. You know, the Lord did not apply the law to to Abraham once.
00;40;01;05 - 00;40;02;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.
00;40;02;10 - 00;40;24;25
Murray Dueck
And and did does it mean he got away with it? No. It does. It. But it's a different mindset. And the healing of the soul is, is you know, that's why these guys we're talking about, the Desert Fathers are all living in these places because they realize that the soul will be healed. So and but but guess what that brings you.
00;40;24;25 - 00;40;43;29
Murray Dueck
Then once your soul gets healed and you get past this judicial thinking, you're you're willing to do crazy things for God, like Abraham sacrificing his own son because you know the love of God or what Jesus is doing with Peter. Peter, I need to move you up a level of love from flower to a gospel, because I need to heal your soul.
00;40;43;29 - 00;41;09;07
Murray Dueck
It's not about you. It's about my love for you and through and the seeing of the stuff in our heart. Once we are allowed to to do it and not expect a rejection or God frowning at us, or and going up a level of love, of desire because that's how much we are loved. I mean, I think Hebrews 1111 says, And Abraham depends on your translation.
00;41;09;12 - 00;41;27;06
Murray Dueck
And Abraham considered him faithful. Who made the promise? In other words, it wasn't about his faith. It was about, well, that guy keeps coming through and he keeps making it work. So therefore I'm going to keep trusting him, you know? Right. Because it's not about performance, about love. And eventually you give yourself over to it because you know what?
00;41;27;08 - 00;41;41;25
Murray Dueck
I get this. You know, Paul, I'm the chief of sinners. It's okay to see the crap in my heart. I can embrace it now because compared to the great love coming at me while I'm still like this, it's astounding.
00;41;41;28 - 00;41;44;26
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right. Well, and that.
00;41;44;26 - 00;42;03;06
Murray Dueck
And to learn to live there and just be loved like that. So I mean, so we want God to bump us up all these layers of love, you know, think about dating somebody, think about it like that. You know, you're just hanging out as a friend, Leo. Okay. And now you're dating and this agape yo thing is starting to form.
00;42;03;08 - 00;42;24;18
Murray Dueck
But where does that go? Eventually you get married and you go into Eros, right? And and, you know, the Lord's trying to bring us along into these deeper levels of love. But he's got to shine a brighter light in our hearts and realize, hey, we just got to let him. We got to let him work on that because he loves us.
00;42;24;21 - 00;42;52;01
Joshua Hoffert
Well, and and that is, I don't Jesus bringing Peter back to that place of rest. This in his love. Yeah. And and that being the, you know, man being the target of God who intends to place his heart upon him, that the being of God would be made known through the heart of man and the being of God being the being pure love.
00;42;52;01 - 00;43;17;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And then that being the the natural state of mankind and and Jesus bringing Adam, or Peter back to that and that, that really sets the stage for looking at one of the things we wanted to talk about today is, and we've talked about talking about it is, the bridal intimacy language because that is the the bridal intimacy in a nutshell is Jesus.
00;43;18;02 - 00;43;38;06
Joshua Hoffert
what? He he's working out our issues again, not to perfect us in the sense that we think we make we make all the right decisions. We get everything right. Yeah, but to bring us back to that place where the content of our being is the same as the content of his being in, in whatever capacity that it can be.
00;43;38;08 - 00;44;05;00
Joshua Hoffert
All right. We're Peter. Second Peter one says that we become partakers of the divine nature. Well, the divine nature is perfect love. And so he's bringing Peter back to that place of perfect love. And that's what we find when we start looking in the mystical authors, the bridal, the bridal language of the mystical authors. This is, I want to read an excerpt from because we want to look at is Bernard of Clairvaux and Simeon the New Theologian.
00;44;05;02 - 00;44;10;22
Joshua Hoffert
And, and so I want to read this, particular passage from, Divine Guru.
00;44;10;24 - 00;44;12;12
Murray Dueck
And I'll maybe we'll just make one statement for.
00;44;12;12 - 00;44;13;20
Joshua Hoffert
You, go ahead and make that statement.
00;44;13;21 - 00;44;37;07
Murray Dueck
So just keep in mind, everybody a of Lord drawing mankind into this, these deeper places of love and, and and the church having figured this out, you know, and you know, these mystical writers like, oh, this is the heart of God. This is what he wants out of mankind. And so, you know, you know, Josh is going to read some of these guys like, oh, goodness gracious.
00;44;37;10 - 00;44;55;13
Murray Dueck
You know, this is what a pure and spotless bride is all about, right? And this healing of the heart to make us ready for the for the wedding banquet. And, you know, I'm quoting Peter and I'm sorry, Paul, and like Ephesians three, but but listen to how these guys have, have work this out. So anyway, there we go.
00;44;55;15 - 00;45;11;06
Joshua Hoffert
Well, and, yeah, I'm, I was trying to find another, another particular passage from Simeon in the, on The Mystical Life is his book on the mystical life and his ethical discourses.
00;45;11;10 - 00;45;13;08
Murray Dueck
I have it right there.
00;45;13;11 - 00;45;49;22
Joshua Hoffert
It's. But. Well, what what he's the the context for a lot of Simeon's writings when it comes to his, theological reflections. Right. And his teaching of his disciples. So in Divine Arrows, it's full of, hymns that are full of bridal intimacy language. Right. but but Simeon is in an age where he's arguing back and forth, and, and one of the things he says and again, I can't, I don't, I don't, I wish I had it right in front of me, but I don't maybe, Mary, you can pull up the passage.
00;45;49;24 - 00;46;02;18
Joshua Hoffert
But essentially Simeon says, look, there's people that are trying to tell you what the spiritual life is about, but you would never ask someone who's never been to the city to tell you how to navigate the city.
00;46;03;01 - 00;46;03;29
Murray Dueck
yes.
00;46;04;01 - 00;46;21;22
Joshua Hoffert
Because if they haven't ever been to the city, they can't give you the right directions. And so you're talking with people who have eliminated the place of encountering the love of God, and then you're asking them for instruction, and all they can tell you is about fear, anger, and wrath because they'd never seen the city.
00;46;21;27 - 00;46;24;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's a great way to say it.
00;46;24;03 - 00;46;46;28
Joshua Hoffert
So they've got they've got directions that are misconstrued and misguided because they've never been there. And so Simeon Simeon is counseled, he's talking to his disciples in the sense of in the monastic communities going, there's people who are writing against us, but they've never test again. They're saying, God's not accessible to us today, which is the same things we hear today.
00;46;46;28 - 00;47;06;05
Joshua Hoffert
God is not accessible to us today, not in the direct like, like I was listening to a video where, there was some secessionist talking with continuation ists. Right. And the secessionists are, are going it's essentially every claim that someone had of a, you know, one person. So I had a vision. Jesus stood at the foot of my bed.
00;47;06;07 - 00;47;24;21
Joshua Hoffert
Well, there's it's immediately regarded with suspicion by a situationist because God doesn't move that way anymore. Well, I can't go to you because you've never seen the city then. And then you're claiming authority on the whole system when you've never seen the city. So Simeon would go, don't listen to him. Why would you listen to him when they've never seen the city?
00;47;24;24 - 00;47;38;22
Joshua Hoffert
If they've seen the city, then they can give you instruction and they can say, well, that's true and that's not true. But they're just saying nothing's true. But so they don't have the they don't have the right map. Yeah. They have the right map. They would be able to help you, but they don't. So don't listen to him.
00;47;38;22 - 00;48;04;12
Joshua Hoffert
That's what he's saying. And so the the map of divine intimacy, the map of encountering the love of God, the map of we've come into his house because of the tenderness of his loving mercy. Like this is vitally important for every theologian to understand, and not in a caustic way that, you know, if you're if you're if your paradigm for salvation is because you have a holy God you should be afraid of.
00;48;04;14 - 00;48;18;12
Joshua Hoffert
Now, again, we have got to make the caveat. We're not saying that God is not holy. We're not saying there's not fear involved. But if that's your system, look, I'm probably don't have a whole lot of time for you. So Simeon says this. You unless you want you have a you want to know.
00;48;18;12 - 00;48;20;13
Murray Dueck
Go ahead. I'm digging around.
00;48;20;15 - 00;48;59;00
Joshua Hoffert
So Simeon says this, and I'm going to pick up in in the middle of one of his poems. he goes, but when I begin to mourn like one in despair, then he is seen by me, and he looks at me. Who? He who looks upon all things. Amazed. I am astonished at the shapely ness of his beauty, and how the creator stooped down when he opened the heavens and displayed his unspeakable and strange glory to me, who therefore shall also come closer to him?
00;48;59;02 - 00;49;20;22
Joshua Hoffert
Or how shall one be carried up to the immeasurable heights? When I consider this, he himself was found within me, flashing forth within my wretched heart. Yeah, this is vitally important. Okay. Simeon is not, He's not like, trying to convince everybody that he's super spiritual and perfect. He's very aware that his heart is wretched. But you don't.
00;49;20;22 - 00;49;50;26
Joshua Hoffert
Look, this is the thing. You don't need God to tell you that your heart is wretched. You just need you be like you don't like. I mean, you like people have all systems of thought around trying to convince. You're going to convince you that humanity is good. It's not. It doesn't take anything but a look, a cursory look at history, to realize that humankind are pretty awful human kinds of the propensity and the possibility of creating great, great evil.
00;49;50;26 - 00;50;08;11
Joshua Hoffert
And we've done it consistently throughout all of history. Okay, so you don't need God to show you that. You don't even need the scriptures to show you that all you need is a reflection on your own life and a reflection on human history, and it'll show you that that's all you need. Okay? The scriptures help us, and then God illuminates things.
00;50;08;13 - 00;50;32;00
Joshua Hoffert
But Simeon goes, my heart is wretched, but he shine forth within me anyway. This is bridal intimacy. Language flashing forth within my wretched heart, illuminating me from all directions with immortal radiance shining upon all my members, with his rays folding his entire self around me, he tenderly kisses all of me. He gives his whole self to me, the unworthy.
00;50;32;03 - 00;50;58;18
Joshua Hoffert
And I take my fill of his love and beauty. And I am filled, full of divine pleasure and sweetness. See what we're taught. We've talked about the language of divine, or the language of of the bridal paradigm in in history. Well, with Simeon, you start to see this real maturation of what it actually means to be in that place of sweet intimacy.
00;50;58;18 - 00;51;22;26
Joshua Hoffert
I love how he says. And so any anyone that can resonate with this and say, I can tell you that I've had an experience where he's given himself to me. I'm unworthy, but I've taken my fill of his love and beauty. He's encompassed me all about. He's kissed me tenderly, and I'm filled with divine pleasure and sweetness. Unless someone can say, this is when that happened to me, I just wouldn't listen to him.
00;51;22;29 - 00;51;27;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, because I don't think they have the map. I just don't think they have the map down.
00;51;27;11 - 00;51;47;09
Murray Dueck
You know, all. I'll read that one prayer. Two? Yeah. Just because if you look at that experience of having the map, how do you begin to read it? And and I'll just read this one thing. This is also out of divine eros. thou, O Christ, art the kingdom of heaven. Thou, oh Christ, art the. You are the land promised to the meek.
00;51;47;09 - 00;52;22;29
Murray Dueck
Thou the meadow land of Paradise. The thou art the celestial banquet. Thou art the ineffable bridal chamber. Sorry, guys, I'm getting off the internet here. I gotta find my book. Art thou the table set for all the bread of life? The unheard of drink. Both of the urine for the water and the life giving water. The. You are the inextinguishable lamp for each one of the saints, the garment and the crown of one who bestows the crowns, the joy and the rest, the delight and the glory, the gladness in the mirth and the great grace of the spirit of all sanctity, will shine like the sun in all the saints.
00;52;23;01 - 00;52;34;26
Murray Dueck
The unapproachable sun will shine in their midst, and will shine brightly according to the measure of their faith, their asceticism, their hope, and their love will be illumined by the spirit. I mean, wow, I mean, he's like.
00;52;34;27 - 00;52;36;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;52;36;18 - 00;52;59;03
Murray Dueck
But, you know, you have to be willing to, you know, have you ever, ever, you know, I remember this time I'll just share this one little thing. I, I was young, I was like 8 or 10 or something. And all my, my relatives were, talking in the other room, and I found a quarter on the floor in the kitchen, and I was like, oh, yeah, because a quarterback.
00;52;59;03 - 00;53;03;26
Murray Dueck
Then you got a pretty good load of candy for a quarter back in 1975.
00;53;04;13 - 00;53;04;18
Joshua Hoffert
so.
00;53;04;18 - 00;53;26;02
Murray Dueck
Like I put it, picked it up and I put it in my pocket and I, and I, I walked past everybody outside, I think presumably on my way to the candy store. And I remember my dad looking at me as I walked by going, oh, no, he knows. And I got out the door and he, you know, he came and said, so what's going on?
00;53;26;04 - 00;53;45;27
Murray Dueck
And I remember I blushed and I held out the quarter and he goes, okay. And he took it back. You can't be taking people's money. But then he gave me this really, really big hug, if I remember correctly. You know, that because I was looking at my shoes, I was looking down. I didn't want to look him in the eye because I felt so guilty.
00;53;45;29 - 00;54;12;07
Murray Dueck
And then yet in that moment, it actually produced this wonderful encounter of, you know, my dad loving me in the midst of my. Manipulation, if you want to use that word. Yeah. And and the thing is that taught me more about my. So I'm not saying, hey, go sin and God will love you more. But it showed me that in the midst of my heart and it's wickedness that the father would receive me.
00;54;12;09 - 00;54;22;10
Murray Dueck
And the problem is that when we don't know the father's love for us and the son's love for us, and God wants to bump us up these love levels of love.
00;54;22;12 - 00;54;22;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;54;22;28 - 00;54;51;20
Murray Dueck
And we start staring at our shoes because we don't measure up that that hinders our growth and our ability to see this celestial banquet, our ability to see the love of the father because we're the ones not looking up, judging ourselves based on our own performance, rather than on the Lord's love. And, and and you know, when you look at these guys talking, they've looked up and he allowed the Lord to love on them.
00;54;51;20 - 00;55;09;23
Murray Dueck
They looked up and they went, oh my goodness. You know, Saint Simeon says a lot. I'm the chief of sinners. I've been you know, I've and you know, why does he do that? Well, when you experience such a radical love of God, you also kind of see all the dirt inside the chamber, you know? But, you know one thing, I'll just share this one last thought here.
00;55;09;23 - 00;55;29;06
Murray Dueck
And but because, like, how do you how do you work on that? And I maybe I've said this before, but it's worth putting right here. 1910 somewhere really, maybe even a little earlier. I don't know how they would have got the picture, but there is this guy, you know, maybe in Dodge, you know, or some Boomtown Boot Hill.
00;55;29;06 - 00;55;53;03
Murray Dueck
I don't know, some western town. Right. And he used to be the town bum. And he got saved came the pastor, he and the preacher. And, I guess he's causing some trouble for all the saloon owners because people are getting saved and they're not going into their bars so much. So they take a picture of him they had of him laying in the gutter with the pigs, and they put it up on the front door of his church.
00;55;53;06 - 00;56;15;21
Murray Dueck
So he comes to church one morning and there's all his parishioners lined up, and they're looking at something. He goes up the steps and there's a picture of him drunk out of his mind with a pig's, takes the picture down. Everybody kind of humbles, humbly goes into the church silent, and he takes that same picture, and he takes a hammer, and he hammers that thing, and he puts it on the front of his pulpit.
00;56;15;24 - 00;56;45;11
Murray Dueck
And he says, I once was lost, but now I see I was, you know, I once was lost, now I'm sound, I was blind, but now I see. And he realizes what he's trying to tell this congregation is, look how much God loves me, that he could take such a broken person and change them. And, you know, if we could look at the Lord's love like that in comparison to our sin, we would be living as as, sons and daughters.
00;56;45;14 - 00;57;16;23
Murray Dueck
We'd be living in bridal intimacy. But if we look at all the muck of our past and everything and go, well, just like those saloon owners wanted to make him and his church look at him, we would be living as orphans and denying this love of God. And so. And I, you know, we're looking at people in the desert, fathers who who met this radical, loving God and realized who they were not in their fasting or their asceticism.
00;57;16;25 - 00;57;18;16
Murray Dueck
But because they were so loved.
00;57;18;18 - 00;57;19;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;57;19;15 - 00;57;39;10
Murray Dueck
And because of that, they want to pursue God. And as Saint Augustine said, God first, first sought us so that we may learn to seek him. And and if we seek out of a bridle paradigm of being loved and in part of the family, and we realize, yeah, stuff going to come up in my heart. Yeah, there's junk in there.
00;57;39;10 - 00;58;07;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I'm going to send it over. But it's like my dad interrupting me stealing that quarter or or this pastor, if we see it that way or as you know, Julian of Norwich said, When God sees our sin, he sees our pain. We can go into these higher levels of the love of God because we realize we're invited in on a journey of change, not a journey of of having to fulfill the law in any way to be good enough.
00;58;08;00 - 00;58;29;17
Murray Dueck
Because we'll never be good enough. No, but it's love by, you know. So then why do we do it if we can't earn it? Well, I mean, when you when you met your wife or your spouse or, and you're in love and you and you gave them a, an engagement ring that they would you have gone and slept around or looked at another woman in lust?
00;58;29;20 - 00;58;54;11
Murray Dueck
Probably not. Why? Because you were so in love. There's no way you would want to do that to the heart of your fiancée, because you were compelled by love to do the right thing, not by the law. And and so, again, what's compelling us. And once you have this map of love and you're walking by it, it inspires you to walk the journey.
00;58;54;13 - 00;59;06;21
Murray Dueck
Why? Because you can't live without more of the love of God. So we're right back to, you know, Song of Solomon, really? Right there because of Might having to go and pursue the lover because she can't help herself.
00;59;06;21 - 00;59;33;18
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Well, let's let me I just want to read. I'm going to read 1 or 2 more passages from Smith and then end on Bernard, because we've got to wrap it up. or we're reaching our time. and here's I found the, the reference I wanted for Simeon. He said this someone who explains something about, for example, a house or a city or a place and its arrangement and condition, or again, about some theater and what goes on inside.
00;59;33;18 - 00;59;49;06
Joshua Hoffert
It is obliged, first of all, to have seen the places, and I've learned well about them, and then afterwards to speak carefully and accurately about what he wants to cover. If he were not to have seen it beforehand, then what, in fact, could he really say about it? What notion regarding something he had not seen it all about?
00;59;49;06 - 01;00;11;16
Joshua Hoffert
Could he otherwise provide for his account? So Simeon's point is, if you're going to try and speak on things of encountering God, being with them, experiencing his love, being filled with his presence and all of these things, then if you've never experienced it, you have no place to speak on it. You're just speaking with empty words to who have experienced it and then to speak on it.
01;00;11;16 - 01;00;34;15
Joshua Hoffert
So he he actually talks about people that claim to have the Holy Spirit, but are I actually I've got a, I've got a quote right out here. He goes, people that claim to have the Holy Spirit but are deaf to him, how can they possibly talk about him? Like if you claim to have the Holy Spirit but are deaf to him, then you don't have the Holy Spirit.
01;00;34;17 - 01;00;38;08
Joshua Hoffert
So, yeah, that's a big statement. It is.
01;00;38;08 - 01;00;46;10
Murray Dueck
That's why we see me in everybody, because, yeah, he's very much into encounter and hearing, you know, he's got. Yeah. We claim him as
01;00;46;12 - 01;01;04;24
Joshua Hoffert
So if, if it's the case, if it's the case that you have received him, that you have been touched by him, that you've been changed by him, then how can you say that and be deaf to him? That's his whole point, right? He has to be speaking to you from within. And then so that that's that is Simeon in a nutshell.
01;01;04;24 - 01;01;24;06
Joshua Hoffert
And this is where we start to get to a real mature type of language when it comes to bridal intimacy in this bridal paradigm. And, and then you also see it in, in Bernard of Clairvaux, which we, you see shades of earlier authors. Here's a quote from him. He says fear motivates a slave's attitude to his master.
01;01;24;13 - 01;01;48;05
Joshua Hoffert
Gain that of a wage earner to his employer. The learner is attentive to his teacher. The son is respectful to his father, but the one who asks for a kiss, she is a lover among all, and he's. This is would be a comment, of course, on the Song of Solomon. Among all the natural endowments of a man, love holds first place, especially when it's directed to God, who was the source from where it comes.
01;01;48;05 - 01;02;07;15
Joshua Hoffert
No sweeter name can be found to embody that sweet inter flow of affections between the word and the soul, than the bridegroom and the bride. And so he's he's talking maybe not quite as poetically as Simeon, but he's illuminating on the exact same thing, that we can use all kinds of metaphors to talk about how we relate to God.
01;02;07;17 - 01;02;28;24
Joshua Hoffert
And fear is the motivation of a slave. So someone who has stuck in a slave like mentality is stuck in a fear based paradigm, right? Someone who's stuck in a wage based paradigm. This is what you benefit from. It is an an employer paradigm. God's my employer. He gives me something that makes me happy. Someone who has a teacher based paradigm is going.
01;02;28;24 - 01;02;53;06
Joshua Hoffert
I'm always learning from God. Someone who has a father paradigm is respectful to God. But someone who has a lover paradigm. Hey, well, now we're talking about the interplay of the word and the soul, the bridegroom and the bride. This is beautiful. This is being filled with his love and beauty, filled, full of divine pleasure and sweetness. And as far as Simeon's concerned, as far as Bernard is concerned, the only thing that transform is the transforms.
01;02;53;06 - 01;03;17;12
Joshua Hoffert
The heart is an encounter with the love and the sweetness and the tenderness of the father being pierced by his love. And that's a practical, tangible experience. That's not a that's not a philosophic experiment. That's not a thought based experiment. That's not an ideology that you believe. That is something that actually happens to you, overwhelms you, and changes who you are.
01;03;17;13 - 01;03;36;13
Joshua Hoffert
Love in and love out. And this is what we look at when we love someone. Like when Marie and I read something like John 21, what we see in John 21 is that love is coming into Peter. He's he's Jesus is establishing again the kind of love that is. And then it moves out from Peter and Peter is being constantly perfected in the image of God.
01;03;36;13 - 01;03;44;14
Joshua Hoffert
And that image is perfect love. Amen. And so this is this is the bridal paradigm in a nutshell. And I think with that, Mary, we have to call this.
01;03;44;20 - 01;03;46;24
Murray Dueck
I will just, 30s. You know, everybody.
01;03;46;24 - 01;03;48;08
Joshua Hoffert
Is already speaking of,
01;03;48;10 - 01;03;55;05
Murray Dueck
Encountering that love. I'd really recommend reading a couple of books on kind of, by Brennan Manning. So we started out life is a.
01;03;55;05 - 01;03;55;20
Joshua Hoffert
It's a good one.
01;03;55;23 - 01;04;24;05
Murray Dueck
Yep. And then, became an evangelical pastor and then became a alcoholic living on the streets of New Orleans, dragged into a recovery house and met God, his father. So when he writes about God, his father, or who Jesus is, it's brilliant. And I'd really recommend, if you're you're coming out of these mindsets of judicial or orphan or, read, read, abuse child by Brennan Manning or the release of the relentless tenderness of Jesus.
01;04;24;06 - 01;04;25;02
Joshua Hoffert
That's another really.
01;04;25;05 - 01;04;26;16
Murray Dueck
I just love that book.
01;04;26;16 - 01;04;48;11
Joshua Hoffert
So just and we're and you know, it's not when you're talking about Brennan Manning. Like, we're not trying to claim that these people are because, you know, I know there's some people out there that will go, well, you know, he's not a very good reformed theologian. Right? Well, we're not talking about I don't we're not going. Yeah. He's going to put together a full systematic theology for you, but he's someone that saw something.
01;04;48;16 - 01;04;54;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Came back with something to say. And so that's why I will listen. That's why I will listen to him.
01;04;54;02 - 01;04;58;27
Murray Dueck
And he's urging you and I, who read his books to come back and.
01;04;58;27 - 01;05;01;13
Joshua Hoffert
See, see that same thing that he saw. Yeah.
01;05;01;16 - 01;05;10;07
Murray Dueck
Which is why I'm recommending it, because it's available to you and sometimes and depending and, you know, bringing or thinking we need somebody to to go, hey, listen.
01;05;10;09 - 01;05;29;26
Joshua Hoffert
You know, you know, what people can say about Brennan Manning a well, he's he failed later. Right? He went back into alcoholism and and his life fell apart. And I would say this, I would say if he had never encountered the love of God and understood the father the way he did, he'd never even get to that point because he would have died on the streets when he, you know, 50 years previous.
01;05;29;28 - 01;05;47;28
Joshua Hoffert
So the fact that he lasted that long and held on to that long, now, he did fail at the end. We're not saying he didn't, but the fact that he held on to that long means, hey, there's something to say about what he encountered there. And what he says has that rings true to what we see in Simeon, what we see in our seeing other authors as well.
01;05;47;28 - 01;06;04;21
Joshua Hoffert
So with with that said, everyone, we're going to wrap this episode to a close. We've got more planned on the bridal paradigm as we've been talking through this. As with all things Mary and I, we tend to talk a lot. when we start a topic and then go, oh, there's a lot to say. Yeah. It's shocking. yeah.
01;06;04;21 - 01;06;11;13
Joshua Hoffert
So there we are. And, so I'll say until next week, everyone, it's been awesome. And, Murray, it's always a pleasure to hang out with you.
01;06;11;17 - 01;06;12;29
Murray Dueck
Thank you, my friend.
01;06;13;01 - 01;06;20;25
Joshua Hoffert
And everybody else. God bless. And, Murray, I guess God bless. I don't mean not Murray. Yes. Okay. Bye, everybody.
01;06;20;27 - 01;06;21;05
Murray Dueck
But.