When we look at Jesus we see a stark contrast with our modern world. He does not seem rushed, he is not hurried, and he encourages us to become like little children. Have you ever watched a child lost in play? Time is a foreign concept to them. What would we look like if we could recapture what it means to live from the place of rest Christ promised to be for us? The wisdom of the Christian mystics gives us a glimpse into the unhurried life of settling into God.
Murray and Josh hosted an online event called "Becoming a Non-Anxious Presence" in 2022. MFT panelist Ron Huxley joined Murray and Josh in talking about living from a place of non-anxiety. This bonus episode is from the first session of the online seminar.
For the rest of the seminar, visit: https://www.windtrainingacademy.com/non-anxious-presence
When we look at Jesus we see a stark contrast with our modern world. He does not seem rushed, he is not hurried, and he encourages us to become like little children. Have you ever watched a child lost in play? Time is a foreign concept to them. What would we look like if we could recapture what it means to live from the place of rest Christ promised to be for us? The wisdom of the Christian mystics gives us a glimpse into the unhurried life of settling into God.
Murray and Josh hosted an online event called "Becoming a Non-Anxious Presence" in 2022. MFT panelist Ron Huxley joined Murray and Josh in talking about living from a place of non-anxiety. This bonus episode is from the first session of the online seminar.
For the rest of the seminar, visit: https://www.windtrainingacademy.com/non-anxious-presence
00;00;21;28 - 00;00;40;25
Joshua Hoffert
You can know the Bible. There's lots of people. Little disciples, lots of scholars that are Christians know the Bible. There's one thing to know the Bible. There's a famous atheist who started off as a fundamentalist theologian who rips the scriptures apart and is now completely dead set against the scriptures. He knows the scriptures like the back of his hand.
00;00;40;28 - 00;01;00;10
Joshua Hoffert
So that doesn't mean that the scriptures have formed him, because he would claim that they've deformed him.
00;01;00;12 - 00;01;25;18
Joshua Hoffert
We are growing up in the culture that we've grown up in it. It's weird. Don't often consider just how formed by our culture we are. Or, you know, I think I think of I think we're beginning to ask the questions of ourselves. We've got some good resources today to ask how we're formed by our family of origin.
00;01;25;20 - 00;01;53;29
Joshua Hoffert
That seems to be a common, conversation that people are beginning to have. Understand that there's things that my parents did that are good and are not so good, and I'm starting to come to grips with that. and, you know, we think about, you know, how the, how the difficult moments we have, how the difficult moments we've been through have shaped us.
00;01;54;05 - 00;02;19;13
Joshua Hoffert
but taking a step back and investigating the culture we grow up in, not just. And and this is our church culture. This is if you grew up in church. This is your the culture of your city. this is the culture of your country and the culture of our Western civilization in a, in a broader, in a broader understanding, and, and, you know, I mean, you can investigate that to a.
00;02;19;15 - 00;02;40;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right. I mean, you can go to great lengths at investigating things like that. There's, men like Francis Schaefer has done his book. How then Should We Live? Is a great book. Looking through how history has shaped our world today. Our philosophy has shaped our world today. So, you know, people have investigated that in very, very minute ways that are very helpful to think through.
00;02;40;23 - 00;03;14;11
Joshua Hoffert
But I want to take just this broader, broader brush looking at, what are the predominant values of our culture and how has our worldview been shaped by that? And then how has our worldview departed from a biblical worldview? That's one thing to be able to quote Scripture, and it's another thing to I mean, any person that doesn't make a difference with their life is, is, lived in accordance with Jesus or living in the way of Jesus.
00;03;14;11 - 00;03;38;24
Joshua Hoffert
Living it with a value for Jesus is central to my life. You can know the Bible. There's lots of people that know the Bible. There's lots of scholars that aren't Christians and know the Bible. There's one thing to know the Bible. you know, what's the I can't think of the guy offhand, but there's a famous atheist who started off as a fundamentalist theologian who rips the scriptures apart and is now, completely dead set against the scriptures.
00;03;38;24 - 00;04;00;07
Joshua Hoffert
He knows the scriptures like the back of his hand. So that doesn't mean that the scriptures have formed him because he would claim that they've deformed him. And so it's not just the knowledge that that a knowledge of the Bible isn't enough for us. It's one thing to just know the the scriptures. It's another thing to to think through.
00;04;00;07 - 00;04;25;24
Joshua Hoffert
How did these how are the moral lessons of the Scripture forming me? You know, that's I think that's where some of us, we get stuck in our walk with Jesus when we when we approach the text of Scripture as a predominantly moral formation text for us to tell us how we should live. And there's for sure there's stuff like there's stuff about that in the scriptures, you know, Jesus in the sermon on the Mount, he gives us some practical advice for how we should live.
00;04;25;24 - 00;04;44;22
Joshua Hoffert
But there's something much deeper happening in the in the sermon on the Mount. And it's not just a it's not just serving a moral purpose to give you a moral framework for life, but he's telling you about something new that's coming. There's a one thing to, like I said, to know the scripture, another thing to know how to apply some of the moral lessons of the Scripture.
00;04;44;29 - 00;05;09;28
Joshua Hoffert
But it's another thing to understand how the Scripture, what the scriptures teach us about the nature of reality and how reality actually is to us, and what's real about the world and what's a real, real way of inhabit this world. And that's a totally different departure from how we normally have read scripture. Not just knowing the Bible, not just knowing how to apply the moral lesson, but how does the Bible think?
00;05;10;01 - 00;05;50;12
Joshua Hoffert
And how does the Bible present the nature of the world, the nature of reality distinctly different than what I've been formed by in my in my current culture? And it seems to me, that and I don't think it seems to just to me, I mean, Murray and I were Murray threw out a bunch of buzzwords when I sit when I talked about the topic just before we were going to start, you know, we've grown up in a predominantly platonic, platonically formed philosophical worldview and a another way of saying that is a no formed philosophical worldview, agnostic, fully formed philosophical worldview.
00;05;51;18 - 00;06;15;10
Joshua Hoffert
and, and, those things all mean shades of the same thing. They don't all mean the exact same thing, but they're shades of the same thing. So I won't explain that for just a second. the the basic premise of the of the overwhelming, culture that we've grown up in because the Western culture has been based off of ancient, philosophical, writings.
00;06;15;16 - 00;06;44;29
Joshua Hoffert
We are it's amazing when you look at the history of Roman Greece and how shaped by Roman Greece, North America is, Europe is. And the Western world at large is, the backdrop of how we think in terms of rights and structure and, and, even political structure and governmental structure is very much formed by Greece and Rome and the philosophical milieu of the day from 2000 years ago.
00;06;45;18 - 00;07;17;01
Joshua Hoffert
and so what you get in that is you essentially get a view of creation that is two fold. You have your everyday physical world, which is something that is kind of, inconsequential. It's not something that is really important. And then you have this separate and distinct spiritual or ideal world, or the world of the ideas or the world of the the, the, the special separate world where God would exist.
00;07;17;01 - 00;07;39;19
Joshua Hoffert
And most of these philosophical worldviews, incorporate a view of God. they they usually see a god as central to them. I mean, the the atheism of the current day is, is kind of a new, a modern invention. actually, the early Christians were called atheists because they didn't believe in the gods of the day. They believed in the Christian God.
00;07;39;21 - 00;07;58;23
Joshua Hoffert
They believed in the Jewish God. So they were called atheists because they were against the theists of the day. And in the early church, and so this, this whole idea that God doesn't exist as a, as a backdrop for philosophy or backdrop for thinking through the world. It's just it's just it's a modern invention. It's not part of human history.
00;07;58;25 - 00;08;20;07
Joshua Hoffert
So when you look at these, the Gnosticism of the ancient world, the platonic, the platonic philosophy, the ancient world, that no citizen of the ancient world that basically says the world of the flesh or the world of much of the material is inconsequential. And the more important thing is the world of the spiritual. And, the what happens within that framework?
00;08;20;18 - 00;09;04;11
Joshua Hoffert
and again, I'm, I'm simply trying to simplify it so I don't take we could spend the whole time talking through Plato's philosophy and the, the various ways that dosa tism formed early church theology or, you know, the early church reacted against dosa tism and maybe a brief side note to that would help to clarify what what what we're talking about to, one of the early heresies in church history, was what we've said, dosages and which said that, Jesus was a essentially a disembodied spirit because he could not be a actual human body, because the divine substance is something that's so much, so, so much higher above the physical world that
00;09;04;11 - 00;09;29;02
Joshua Hoffert
he would never condescend to taking actual mortal physicality. So Jesus could not have had a human body. He could only have been a disembodied spirit. This was an early church heresy called dosage ism. And it looks like it's probably what John in first John four is directly addressing when he says, beloved, you will know that a spirit comes from, comes from God when it witnesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.
00;09;29;04 - 00;09;52;11
Joshua Hoffert
Because the whole idea was that Jesus didn't come in the flesh, because this material world is something to be assumed or ignored or something to be left from. And one of the ways that plays out in our, in our current paradigm today, in the way it plays out in church, is our modern view of salvation. Our modern view of salvation is inherently an escapist philosophy.
00;09;52;14 - 00;10;14;29
Joshua Hoffert
We leave this world and go to a heavenly place. How many of you are familiar with the idea of, little naked angels shooting arrows in the sky playing harps? And this is kind of our, our, our modern culture's view of heaven is that we will go and sit on clouds and they'll be nice, beautiful, fluffy music. It's been I mean, it's been recreated so many times in modern art.
00;10;14;29 - 00;10;44;17
Joshua Hoffert
It's been recreated so many times in, in, in, modern media, in, in modern culture, you know, what a good, a good depiction of that actually is? The, the, what am I thinking of? The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, and you've got the imagery of God the Father reaching down and touching Adam, and their only point of contact is the fingertips.
00;10;44;19 - 00;11;19;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Just barely touching on the fingertips. This is a world view that is not biblical. It's like, okay, if we read the biblical account, God is God. God gets dirty making Adam okay when he's gets down in the sand and forms his body and breathes upon him. What we see in the Sistine Chapel is a version of Christianity that is heavily influenced by platonic philosophy, and we've been handed a a wet a culture that thinks this way.
00;11;19;09 - 00;12;02;08
Joshua Hoffert
So our emphasis and salvation is an escapism that says when we die, we leave our bodies and we live in some spiritual, ethereal, esoteric place that's disembodied, that's separate and and distinct. But this isn't the world of the Bible. This is the world of Western culture. This is the world of Western Christianity. Yeah, Scripture gives us a clear view of what the end goal is in revelation 21 and 22, when it says that God is going to recreate the heavens and the earth, there's a new creation that we will all inhabit, and it's distinctly and embodied reality.
00;12;02;10 - 00;12;20;03
Joshua Hoffert
This is it talks about people coming into the New Jerusalem and worshiping God in the midst of this new Jerusalem. And it talks about this new, new heavens and this new earth, and the glory of God will fill it, and the beauty of God will fill it. But it's a it's a embodied place that's described in revelation 21 and 22.
00;12;20;07 - 00;12;49;08
Joshua Hoffert
This is foreign to our common thinking today. We have a we have a worldview that's been dominated not by a biblical worldview, but by a predominantly platonic or Gnostic worldview. And it was all it was furthered along. I mean, you can go through the history of philosophy with that, but one of some of the you've got, of course, Socrates into Plato and, and Aristotle, those are kind of your three big, huge players when it comes to, the platonic worldview.
00;12;49;08 - 00;13;19;06
Joshua Hoffert
And then when you get into the Christian sphere, you're looking at guys like Thomas Aquinas who, who could be seen as seeing the world through that dualistic lens. Although I don't think that's necessarily fair to characterize. Thomas Aquinas so simply as that. But he can be seen that way because he's heavily influenced by Aristotelian philosophy. and we have guys like, René Descartes, you know, the, the guy who is famous for the statement, I think, therefore, I am.
00;13;19;08 - 00;13;43;06
Joshua Hoffert
And so because I have a world of ideas I have, I exist. So this kind of philosophy is, is tracked from Plato all the way down to guys like Descartes and then Kant and into Nietzsche, who ultimately is like the the material world is not important whatsoever. Everything does and nothing's important. The other thing that's important is that I find pleasure in my life.
00;13;43;08 - 00;14;07;06
Joshua Hoffert
And so you've got you've got a track there that has formed how we think as a Western society. And so what happens is you get the value for transformation of the value for formation. think about this. The way our, the way our system of one this way of our system of education is based on it. Yeah.
00;14;07;07 - 00;14;39;08
Joshua Hoffert
As long as you give kids enough knowledge, they will figure everything else out. And so we we teach them knowledge. We don't teach them wisdom. You know, I, I love that you have, you have new, my wife has been researching some of these, some of these, alternative methods of learning, like the something she's been looking at, something called the Acton Academy, which is very much a problem solving, room where you come together with other kids and learn to problem solve.
00;14;39;10 - 00;14;59;12
Joshua Hoffert
And in the course of it, you're learning English and math and all of these things, but it's under the context of you are actually empowered to make decisions and to solve world problems. It's a totally different way of hands on discipleship that is much more akin to a biblical worldview than it is a Western worldview, because a Western worldview is gain knowledge and things will change.
00;14;59;14 - 00;15;25;29
Joshua Hoffert
And even and maybe, Ron, you could speak to this later. Even our the, the older versions of, counseling practices where, you know, if you have the right information, you have the right knowledge, your life will be okay. You as long as you figure things out, everything will be good for you. Transformation was inherently, based on acquiring knowledge, because knowledge, the world of ideas, is viewed as the greater thing.
00;15;26;02 - 00;15;45;26
Joshua Hoffert
The the world of what's what's the embodiment of who you are is an important how you think is important. So we don't pay attention to the body. We pay attention to the ideas in the mind. And and we're starting to, we're starting to understand that that's not actually a holistic view of the human. And that breaks apart when we talk about how we live our existence.
00;15;45;28 - 00;16;08;05
Joshua Hoffert
The the scriptures offer. Oh, and this is a lot. This is all. I'll say this in a second. The scriptures offer a different worldview. The scriptures offer a worldview that says God is in love with his creation, and his creation is a good creation, and he longs to inhabit his creation. We see throughout the scriptures, we see pictures of a God longing to be in his creation.
00;16;08;07 - 00;16;27;16
Joshua Hoffert
I mean, he starts it off in the very beginning when he when he creates Adam and Eve, and he takes them in, places them in a embodied existence in creation, and then walks with them like, you know, we see this throughout. We see this in Abraham. It says that God shows up and has a meal with Abraham, and he delights to be with Abraham.
00;16;27;18 - 00;16;47;05
Joshua Hoffert
And we see that we see this, and this is the revelation of the tabernacle in the Old Testament and tabernacle into the New Testament, too. But this is the imagery of a God that longs to be with his people, not a God that is far and distant, that we have to somehow escape this world to approach. But a God that longs to be with his people.
00;16;47;08 - 00;17;11;12
Joshua Hoffert
And of course, the, the, the centralizing facet of that is the revelation of Jesus, who of course calls himself the temple. Who is God in our midst, not a disembodied figure, not a distant God, not a minor version of God, not a diminished version of God, not a clothed, cloaked version of God that you can recognize, but God incarnate, God himself, very God.
00;17;11;14 - 00;17;34;07
Joshua Hoffert
And and this is a fundamental shift from away from how we see the world in our Western culture. See, I think that I think Christianity, Christians in general were a bit schizophrenic because we'd try and think of God that way. But we've been formed so much of our culture saying, yes, he is, or you want to make a statement.
00;17;34;07 - 00;17;59;26
Joshua Hoffert
Murray. That's how you wave. Okay. You're good. we have a we have we're a bit schizophrenic, as I was saying, but schizophrenic because we've got a, we've got a, a Bible that tells us that God loves us and wants to be with us, but we've got a, a theology that says that God hates all of our ways and we are wicked, and he wants us to and he wants to be done with us.
00;17;59;28 - 00;18;27;17
Joshua Hoffert
And that's not really the there is an issue with. I'm not saying that God doesn't, the God doesn't enjoy holiness. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying we've emphasized the things that are not emphasized in Scripture. And we've de-emphasized the things that are emphasized in Scripture. We forget that, some of the most emphatic verses about the nature of God are that he's quick to mercy and slaughter, quick to mercy and slow to anger.
00;18;27;19 - 00;18;49;19
Joshua Hoffert
And and so we don't see God as a good God, longing to inhabit his creation, to be with his people. We look at our predominantly as our worldview is that God is, yeah. displeased with the corruption of the world and doesn't really want to be here. And so we need to go somewhere else to be with him.
00;18;49;21 - 00;19;16;24
Joshua Hoffert
And and because of that, I'm pretty displeased with myself. And I never quite at ease with the fact that God loves me. I'm not really sure that he loves me. I'm pretty sure he's annoyed with me, and I'm kind of afraid that he's angry with me. And I think that maybe because I said a prayer, I might be able to be with him some day, but I don't see him as predominantly valuing being with me by my side.
00;19;16;27 - 00;19;40;24
Joshua Hoffert
But see the Bible when it talks of the presence of God. The word in the Hebrew for presence literally means face. What the presence of God is God being in my face. It's not God being away from me where I have to kind of go somewhere to be with him. But we see picture after picture after picture after picture in Scripture of a God with us and then of course, centralized in Jesus.
00;19;40;26 - 00;20;04;14
Joshua Hoffert
And so what happens when we have these two distinct worldviews? We have a a plan of salvation that arises out of the worldview. And the plan of salvation in the platonic worldview is that we would escape the world and go somewhere. But the plan of salvation, when we have a biblical worldview, is that God comes to our world in order to redeem and save it.
00;20;04;16 - 00;20;18;28
Joshua Hoffert
And so what happens? And this is the crazy thing. Okay, think about this. This is the crazy thing. What happens with both of those plans of salvation? Because we read the same things into the text of Scripture and was, okay, now we need to go be with him in heaven, as opposed to him coming down and being with us.
00;20;18;28 - 00;20;45;28
Joshua Hoffert
And this is the plan of redemption, is we actually make man the center of salvation. We don't make God the center of salvation. And so what happens is we end up skewing our whole version of salvation around my life, becoming more enriched, as opposed to the revelation of God coming to man and impacting me. So all of transformation doesn't flow from the place that God is with me.
00;20;46;04 - 00;21;13;27
Joshua Hoffert
Transformation flows from the place I put effort into escaping the bad reality I currently have. And one of those one of those completely falls apart when you fall apart, one of them sustained by your effort, one of them is sustained by the revelation of a good God who longs to be with his people. And so we have to think through the fact that we have these broken paradigms for seeing the nature of God, the nature of reality, and the nature of the world.
00;21;13;27 - 00;21;34;23
Joshua Hoffert
I love, the, the Catholic mystic, mystical author today shard in. There's a really fun one to say. Take a charlatan who was a 19th century mystical author and he writes, he's he's he's reflecting on the Eucharist, the nature of communion. And he writes in his book, The him of the universe. I'm just going to quote a sentence or two.
00;21;34;25 - 00;22;02;21
Joshua Hoffert
He says, I have neither bread nor wine nor altar. I will raise myself beyond these symbols up to the pure majesty of the real itself. I, your priest, will make the whole earth my altar, and on it I will offer you all the labors and sufferings of the world over there on the horizon. The sun has just touched with light the outermost fringe of the eastern sky.
00;22;02;24 - 00;22;26;16
Joshua Hoffert
Once again. Beneath this moving sheet of fire, the living surface of the earth wakes and trembles, and once again begins its fearful travail. I will place on my paten, oh, God, the harvest to be won by this renewal of labor into my chalice I shall pour all the sap which is to be pressed out this day from the earth's fruits.
00;22;26;18 - 00;22;53;17
Joshua Hoffert
So tr de Chardin saw God as fundamentally revealed through every facet of creation. I love the imagery of the sun dipping into the earth being the same imagery of the bread dipping into the cup, that when he sees the mystery of creation, he sees the mystery of communion, and he sees the mystery of God's nature all reflected in God's good ordered creation that God loves to reveal himself through.
00;22;53;20 - 00;23;14;22
Joshua Hoffert
Romans one says that it is the divine, invisible attributes that are on display through all of creation. So we might say God is spiritual and separate, yes, but all of creation speaks of him, so we can't see him as separate and distinct from his creation. He isn't. He is not his creation, but he is reflected in all of his creation.
00;23;14;24 - 00;23;43;23
Joshua Hoffert
David says this, pretty emphatically throughout the Psalms, but most notably in Psalm 139, when he reflects on the way God has made him, that he was fearfully and wonderfully made by God, that everywhere that he went God would be with him. Everything he saw in creation is a revelation of God to him. God in his good ordered creation, revealing himself to David, being with David, revealing his presence to David, and being next to David.
00;23;43;26 - 00;24;03;07
Joshua Hoffert
We see this, and this actually has ramifications for how we see like like Ron shares about the vision that he had, where he sees and the Lord speaks to him. This is this isn't like an ethereal third world escapism that he needs to go have this vision. But God speaks to him about ordering creation and restoring the the, the lost.
00;24;04;04 - 00;24;24;04
Joshua Hoffert
functionality of these kids, if you will. So there's a there's an embodiment to the revelation that God brought to him in a moment like that. And we have to reframe the way that we think about the world. And and what I want to do is, we need to, salvation is not about mankind. Salvation is about the revelation of God himself to mankind.
00;24;24;07 - 00;24;45;01
Joshua Hoffert
So every time you put yourself at the center of it, it falls apart. But when you put God at the center of it, it's sustained. And you become like him so that others can become like him by seeing him in you. what I want to do is look at, for a few moments, and then I'll open it up to Ron and Murray.
00;24;46;03 - 00;25;13;12
Joshua Hoffert
is look at for a few moments what I consider the, the, the teaching of Jesus about the nature of reality. And, I mean, all of Jesus's is the teaching of the nature of reality. But I think you can see it centralized in John 1415 and 16 and in John 1415 and 16. We've oftentimes turned those into, you know, this is our spiritual life, not our physical life.
00;25;13;14 - 00;25;36;11
Joshua Hoffert
And, and so we've kind of read into them a dualistic viewpoint that isn't really there. I love that Jesus says I'm the way, the truth and the life. This is one of the first things he said, that the first thing he said, one of the first things he says is I am the way, the truth and the life and the and here's here's how you know that your thought process is a little bit broken, okay?
00;25;36;13 - 00;25;58;13
Joshua Hoffert
Because when Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life, we immediately think of those things as esoteric ideas. We think of truth as a system of thought. We think of way as a system of belief. We think of life as well. He demonstrates. There is an example of something I need to think about. We've automatically taken those three up with the very first thing we do, and we heard it.
00;25;58;13 - 00;26;22;11
Joshua Hoffert
A statement like that is we take those three concepts and we put them into the realm of the ideas, into the esoteric, into the thought process, into knowledge. Jesus says this, okay, because this he says, I'm the way, the truth and the life. In John 14 six, no one comes to the father except through me. And then Philip says to him, Jesus will show us the father, okay?
00;26;22;18 - 00;26;42;17
Joshua Hoffert
And Jesus says, you've seen the father. So Jesus says, you, you come to know that. How do they know the way, the truth and the life? They see something physical in front of them. He doesn't say you thought the right way. You have the correct knowledge. They don't have the right way of thinking. Believe me, the disciples are not properly formed at this point.
00;26;42;24 - 00;27;02;14
Joshua Hoffert
The disciples are not at this point. If Jesus had released them to change the world, they would have fell and stumbled astonishingly so at this point. They were not yet ready to be the ones that were going to carry the message of the gospel to the ends of the earth. So when he says, I'm the way, the truth, and the life, he doesn't separate that into a thought process or an idea.
00;27;02;14 - 00;27;39;10
Joshua Hoffert
I need to think Jesus is not the truth in the sense that he is the true way of thinking, that you have doctrinal statements about him that are true about him, that you need to adhere to. That's not what he means when he says that, because he says, when you see me, you see truth. That concept for truth in, in, in the that the Hebrew word for truth, Aramaic word for truth is the is the word emet, and it is the first letter in the Hebrew alphabet, the middle letter in the Hebrew alphabet, and the last letter in the Hebrew alphabet.
00;27;39;12 - 00;27;59;04
Joshua Hoffert
And the reason why it took on the meaning of truth is because it contained everything. It was the first, the middle, and the last. So when he says, I am the truth, he's not just saying I'm a bunch of truth things to believe. He's saying I am all of reality guys. I'm everything. I'm it. You're seeing it. You're seeing the broad scope of everything.
00;27;59;04 - 00;28;30;29
Joshua Hoffert
That is when you look at me, everything that you are is here. Everything that is real is here. Everything about my ordered creation is here in me. He's saying something far deeper than just think the right way. And because we have a worldview system, it ties through platonic philosophy, Gnosticism and all this stuff. We look at that statement and we go, okay, I've got to have my doctrinal statements all in a book, all in a row, and now everything is going to go well, and but it's not true.
00;28;31;02 - 00;28;53;06
Joshua Hoffert
So Jesus, in John 14, 15 and 16 is laying out the reality of what all of creation is about. And his grand picture for all of creation is walking in a way connected with the heart of God. That's his grand picture for all of creation. This is the nature of reality that you would unite yourself with God and embody his presence.
00;28;53;09 - 00;29;13;10
Joshua Hoffert
That's his view of reality. Okay? When we when we peel back the layers of what Jesus, how Jesus looked at the, the, the, the nature of reality, the nature of truth, the nature of living, the nature of life. Life is I live my life connected with the heart of the father and embody his presence. And in doing so, I begin to redeem his creation.
00;29;13;12 - 00;29;26;25
Joshua Hoffert
And that is the worldview he lays out in John 1415 and 16 and and the worldview he comes to set to rights in accomplishing all that he accomplished, which we'll talk about in a second. So.
00;29;31;00 - 00;29;37;08
Murray Dueck
the.
00;29;37;11 - 00;29;45;03
Joshua Hoffert
Just trying to figure out where to go.
00;29;45;05 - 00;29;52;23
Joshua Hoffert
I had a thought, like over here that I was trying to pull in, and it might be gone.
00;29;52;26 - 00;30;16;22
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah, that's the thought. I got it back. All right. Good. Okay. And as such, because he he's laying out a the a version of reality that I think is the true version of reality because Jesus is laying out, laying it out that says humankind, the way that you live all of life is about walking in a way that is united with the father and embodies his presence that you see throughout Scripture.
00;30;16;25 - 00;30;37;07
Joshua Hoffert
Humankind is designed to unite with something. Humankind unites with things all the time. And you see this? there's a I've got a verse. Where is it? Somewhere in here, I think. I, I brought it in here. I hold on, let me see if I can find the verse I was thinking of. It's a psalm.
00;30;37;09 - 00;30;44;01
Joshua Hoffert
I thought I copied and pasted into my notes, but maybe I didn't.
00;30;44;15 - 00;30;47;19
Joshua Hoffert
give me just a second, because it's a good. It's a really good point.
00;30;47;22 - 00;30;49;29
Murray Dueck
00;30;50;01 - 00;31;00;16
Joshua Hoffert
And just a second.
00;31;00;19 - 00;31;22;27
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, I know where it is. It's in my other notes. Psalm 135. There we go. I've got three pages in front of me that I'm trying to think through. Psalm 135. Psalm 135 says, Verses 15 to 18, the idols of the nation are of silver and gold made by human hands. This is so. This is the nation.
00;31;22;27 - 00;31;46;06
Joshua Hoffert
The this is you know, old world nations. All the nations have idols. They've always they've all made something, to embody their idea of God, which is their idea of reality. They have mouths but cannot speak, eyes but cannot see. They have ears but cannot hear these idols. Indeed, there is no breath in their mouths. Those who make them are just like them, as are all who trust in them.
00;31;46;09 - 00;32;20;14
Joshua Hoffert
So they made something that they embodied as their God connected and united themselves to it, and then became like it. We see that the the, the nature of humankind. Oh, I love this. And and oh, I wish we could get into talking about maybe Ron can bring it up tomorrow. The issue of mirror neurons and how, that we're discovering in neurology, neuroscience, that you don't even really you can't even really identify yourself outside of relationship with other people around you.
00;32;20;17 - 00;32;48;21
Joshua Hoffert
You really have no personal identity, like try and make value statements about yourself without using the type of language that sees yourself in relation to someone else. It's not. It's next to impossible. Because we see ourselves vastly interconnected with all the people that are around us. And so when I say that I'm a caring or loving person, I think about that in in light of who I'm caring and loving, who I'm caring for and loving.
00;32;48;28 - 00;33;09;17
Joshua Hoffert
When I say that I'm in a I struggle with anger. It's not so much that I struggle with anger inherently within me, although I that might be the case, but I'm defining that through my interaction and engagement. The people around me that make me angry, all the ways that I embody myself and communicate myself to this world is defined by the people around me, and the things around me.
00;33;09;20 - 00;33;30;02
Joshua Hoffert
So I am created to walk in a way that I unite with something, to become like that thing and define myself by my unity, my union with that thing. Jesus said, guys, the nature of reality is that you would walk in a way with your heart, united with the father. This is reality. This is truth. This is life, this is what it is.
00;33;30;02 - 00;33;49;27
Joshua Hoffert
What you see in me is what you see. The nature of reality. To be walking with the father. And then he goes on, of course, in John 15 where he talks about abiding in me and as the branch. This is such a intimate way of communicating what it looks like to walk with another unite with me, abide with me.
00;33;49;29 - 00;34;06;15
Joshua Hoffert
And and we tend to think of because again, we've got this dual, this dualistic paradigm for seeing the nature of creation. The nature of our world is when I sit, when I hear him say, I'm the vine and you're the branches I think of. I remember for a long time thinking of the branches as way, way over here.
00;34;06;23 - 00;34;28;14
Joshua Hoffert
And the vine is way, way over here. Right? Because he couldn't possibly be close to me because he's divine is Jesus, he's God, I'm over here. I'm the little lowly branch. But when you when you look at if you actually picture a vineyard, when you. I don't know if you ever seen a vine. I remember, my mom, she had a small vineyard in the front yard of her house, in California.
00;34;29;13 - 00;34;45;29
Joshua Hoffert
yeah. I mean, I was staying with her, for a couple of years after my parents separated. And I remember looking out at that vineyard, it I and I've thought about this a number of times now, looking out at that vineyard and realizing the vineyard is a mess of branches and vines. They're not separate from each other.
00;34;46;01 - 00;35;08;03
Joshua Hoffert
It is all you look, and the vine and the branches are one. One plant is one thing. So when Jesus is saying, I'm the vine and you're the branches, he's saying, this is the nature of reality, okay? You are created in a way that's designed to be connected with me and not even connected in a haphazard way, but connected in a way that we are the same.
00;35;08;03 - 00;35;32;06
Joshua Hoffert
We are one. Paul talks about this throughout the scriptures, you know, and in first Corinthians 617 he compares actually union with the Lord, with sexual intimacy with a prostitute. It says not only saying it's one and the same, but he's saying in the same way you become one. There we are one together with his spirit. We've been joined by joined with him, not, you know, intertwined, not wrapped around each other, but one in the same.
00;35;32;08 - 00;35;52;01
Joshua Hoffert
We are one. We are together, which is a, it's a, it's a really I mean, the way he describes it is really provocative remain. And Jesus says this, when you remain in me, you will produce the kind of things that I'm about. And so the nature of reality again is you become the thing you're created to be when you remain in me.
00;35;52;07 - 00;36;16;18
Joshua Hoffert
Because when you remain in me, not, you know, get everything right and then I'll come to you, but remain in me. And you begin to produce the things I'm about, the fruit that I'm about. And of course, the way that he describes the nature of life is that life would be one abundant with love, abundant with joy, abundant with peace, abundant with goodness, with patience, with, you know, the fruits of the spirit, of course, of the fruit of the spirit.
00;36;16;21 - 00;36;28;16
Joshua Hoffert
So he defines the nature of life and reality, much different than we would think of the nature of reality. We see. We see ourselves two separate and distinct from him. And the last thing I want to say.
00;36;28;19 - 00;36;28;21
Murray Dueck
Oh.
00;36;28;23 - 00;36;55;20
Joshua Hoffert
Is a mouthful is is looking at, I. Okay, let's look at, we're going to look at this for a second because we have to under, under the context of the conversation is Matthew 16. And, we have to look at, see, before we get there, we're going to look at Matthew 1613 to 19. Peter's great confession.
00;36;56;16 - 00;37;34;08
Joshua Hoffert
but what I want to say before that is the, the, the nature of what Jesus saw being reality is summed up in his very be in the very being of Jesus himself, okay. In Jesus. And this is, this is traditional little Orthodox Christianity, Trinitarian Jesus in and of himself was fully God and fully man. We have invented schemes of thinking through that, that either reduce the godness of Jesus or reduce the madness of Jesus.
00;37;34;10 - 00;37;51;08
Joshua Hoffert
But we have to come back to the fact that Jesus is both fully God and fully man. He's the embodiment of everything you would expected Israel, God, Israel's God to do and is the embodiment of everything a physical human had to do. We see that in John four. He says, hey guys, I'm hungry. Can you go get me some food?
00;37;51;14 - 00;38;11;18
Joshua Hoffert
So we see him having distinctly human character traits and elements. We see him asleep in the boat, you know, and, you know, it's hard for us to reconcile a human being sleeping with that also being God. But then he gets up and he speaks to the wind in the waves. Which is crazy, because no person in the history of all of creation had ever spoken to the wind.
00;38;11;18 - 00;38;39;14
Joshua Hoffert
The waves, like Jesus did. So when Jesus speaks to the wind and the waves in the boat and he says, peace be still, and the wind and the waves calm down, it says that the disciples looked at him and they marveled and said, what manner of man is this? The reason, they marveled, is because in their history they had a way of thinking about, godly men and women that would have their words would have impact upon the weather.
00;38;39;19 - 00;38;59;08
Joshua Hoffert
It's not like they hadn't seen that in, in their, in their cultural history, because you could just point right away to Elijah, who at the, at the words of his prophecy was the catalyst for, droughts that lasted for years and storms that alleviated the drought. So Elijah's right there is like, what manner of men in this?
00;38;59;08 - 00;39;14;26
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, he's an Old Testament prophet. We've got language that talks about that. We know that we can talk about that. We can look at, we can look at Elijah then and say, oh, well, when he slams the coat down, you know, the water's part. So we've got we've got imagery for this, we've got language for this. We can see it.
00;39;14;26 - 00;39;39;11
Joshua Hoffert
When Moses raises his arms, he says, God, parts of see, we've got language for this. We know what manner of men do those kind of things. Godly men and godly women that that operate in that, in that, you know, you know, for for Elijah operate in that sphere of prophet. the the thing is, none of them, Moses didn't go waves separate.
00;39;39;14 - 00;40;02;03
Joshua Hoffert
Elijah didn't say storm come. All of them prayed and watched God do it. So for Jesus to stand up and say to the wind and the waves, peace be still, he is assuming that this is what Jesus. This is what Israel's God would do if he came on the scene. He would speak first person wind waves obey me, not God.
00;40;02;03 - 00;40;26;26
Joshua Hoffert
Do that. He didn't pray that God would do that. He spoke as God do the wind in the waves. So we've got a distinctly human element of Jesus when he's asleep, and the God element of Jesus fully on display, fully embodied, is Israel's God. This is fully he's fully divine. It says in Colossians one and two, it lays out very clear the fullness of deity dwelt within him bodily, not like the half part of deity.
00;40;26;29 - 00;40;55;14
Joshua Hoffert
So we see in Jesus again Jesus laying out the nature of reality over and against a, a we're all these systematized worldviews that we've been, conditioned by and brainwashed by. We see in Jesus the divine, uniting with the human and saying, guys, I want to be with you, okay? So when we get to Peter's confession of faith in Matthew 16, and I'm just going to read this out and then elaborate on this for a moment, then we'll take our break.
00;40;55;17 - 00;41;16;12
Joshua Hoffert
When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked the disciples, saying, who do men say that I am? I the Son of Man am? So they said, some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets. So they had language to trying to describe, people that would do great things. They're one of the prophets.
00;41;16;12 - 00;41;36;06
Joshua Hoffert
You're you're the, the, you know, the spirit of Elijah is there or, you know, they have language to try and describe those things. So the fact that they marveled at what Jesus was doing should tell you something. and he said to them, but who do you, who do you say that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, you are the Christ, the son of the living God.
00;41;36;06 - 00;41;55;12
Joshua Hoffert
And Jesus answered and said to him, blessed are you, Simon bar Jonah, for flesh and blood is not revealed to this, do you? But my father, who is in heaven. And I and I say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church. And much has been said about Peter's confession of faith, and Jesus is admonition to Peter.
00;41;55;14 - 00;42;31;09
Joshua Hoffert
But what I want to say to you is this okay? Peter, one has grasped something about the nature of Jesus that nobody could have grasped. And the the it seems obvious to us when he says, You're the Christ, the son of the living God. One we've ripped all of those, terms out of historical context. For him to say he is the Christ means something to him as a as an Israelite in the first century, and for him to say, you're the son of the living God means something to him in the first century.
00;42;31;11 - 00;42;55;27
Joshua Hoffert
And so we just go and be like, well, of course he said that like he's Jesus. Like it's obvious, isn't it? He's healing all the people. He's doing all the stuff. So why does Jesus say that only his father in heaven did revealed this to him? The first part of the answer to that is, I think the answer to that is, that Jesus so far has bucked every trend that the Christ would, would, would show forth.
00;42;55;27 - 00;43;20;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right? The Christ was the this is the word for Messiah. So the Messiah in in Hebraic tradition was supposed to be a king that would raise up an army. And that army would then overthrow the predominant empire of the time and reinstitute the, the empire of David. And so Israel would be bright all the way back again to this incredible, prosperous kingdom all over again.
00;43;20;29 - 00;43;41;15
Joshua Hoffert
That was the purpose of the Messiah. And you have there's lots of evidence of that within 100 years before Jesus and 100 years after that was it was I. I can't read the exact number, but there's something like over 100 messianic figures that attempted to rise up and, create rebellions against the Roman Empire. That Barabbas may have been one, actually, that the that is exchange for Jesus.
00;43;41;15 - 00;44;03;25
Joshua Hoffert
I mean, he may have been one very, very likely. and so Jesus has now at this point, bucked every trend because he's had two armies come to him. There's an army of 4000 men that he fed and 5000 men that he fed, and both of them, it says they sought to make him king. So this is ostensibly them saying you are now the Messiah King.
00;44;03;27 - 00;44;27;21
Joshua Hoffert
We want you to be our general and and wage war against the Roman Empire. That's what they're saying. When they say that. And Jesus said no. So he's now gone against the grain of tradition and history by saying no. So he doesn't look like the Messiah is supposed to look. So when so, so practically speaking, he has, walked away from the reality of this is what the Messiah would look like.
00;44;27;23 - 00;44;59;22
Joshua Hoffert
And, and so then, for Peter to say you are the Christ. So he's saying you are that person that we know is supposed to come. You are the Son of God, the son of the living God. And this is why Jesus says, my father is the only one that could have revealed this to you, because Simon has has witness to something about Jesus when he says, you are the Christ, he's recognizing his humanity.
00;44;59;24 - 00;45;28;20
Joshua Hoffert
When he says, you are the son of the living God, he's recognizing his divinity. Simon is the first person that ever recognized the actual nature of Jesus, fully God and fully man. And he has rudimentary knowledge, rudimentary language to express it. And the church would spend 500 years trying to figure out how to express that. Peter's, you know, when when the church finally kind of, you know, the church was really good at arguing and it still is.
00;45;28;23 - 00;45;55;02
Joshua Hoffert
So they have never not been good at arguing when, when, the, the debate over the nature of Jesus finally started to come to a semblance of a close in the fifth century at the Council of Chalcedon. It didn't end there, but that's kind of the the big heralding point for, now we've got some language, the, the language.
00;45;55;02 - 00;46;13;21
Joshua Hoffert
And this is a bit of history and I'm not going to get too far into this. You can look up some of these names on your own. There was a man named Leo. He was the pope of the day. Leo wrote something called the Tome of Leo and the Tome of Leo laid out. It's quite short, actually. It sounds really long when you call it a tome, but it's not okay.
00;46;13;22 - 00;46;29;23
Joshua Hoffert
It's like it's like ten pages and, it's it's really misleading. I went to read it like I had a friend tell me about it. I was like, okay, I'm going to sit down and read this. I was like, wait a second, I'm done. What? Because all it was doing was codifying what the church taught about the nature of Jesus, fully God and fully man.
00;46;29;25 - 00;47;02;17
Joshua Hoffert
So he was summing up what many men had said before him. Athanasius had said before him, but Augustine had said what Cyril of Alexandria had said. what what many of these people had said, leading up to the Council of Chalcedon, he was summing it up. And so we have the Tome of Leo at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, AD the, the the bishops that are there witnessing the resolution of this argument say as as Leo has spoken.
00;47;02;17 - 00;47;28;05
Joshua Hoffert
So Peter has spoken. And so they see in Leo the fulfillment of the words of Peter and the words of Peter are, Jesus, you are fully God and fully man. You are the Christ and the son of the living God. And upon this rock, upon the reality of this, I will build everything. After that, upon the reality of the divine has united with the human, and the restoration process has begun.
00;47;28;07 - 00;47;54;17
Joshua Hoffert
The nature of reality is this God has come to embody his presence here in this world. And this is why in the early church and throughout. So the next 2000 years, up till now, the church is vitally important as an embodied people because God is still seen in creation through his church. I mean, you can't separate the gathering of a faith community.
00;47;54;17 - 00;48;12;05
Joshua Hoffert
It's not just about a community. It's the embodiment of God's presence here on earth. This is the nature of reality that we are called to embody is presence, to walk with him. And this is what he lays out. And we have a worldview. You know, we're like I said, we're schizophrenic in our worldview because we battle between these two things.
00;48;12;07 - 00;48;39;28
Joshua Hoffert
We've been formed by forces beyond our control, because our world has given us a way of thinking. But Jesus has given us a radically different worldview that says, your life is one united with him, and everything flows from that place of being united with him. And so I think when we come to grips with that, that everything he's done, everything is laid out, all the the view of reality that he carries with him when he gives it to us is your life is one of union with me.
00;48;40;01 - 00;49;03;19
Joshua Hoffert
If we just started to grasp that, I think we would probably have a better grasp on how to deal with anxiety. We'd have a better grasp on how to live as people of peace. We'd have a better grasp of what our lives ought to look like. But we see ourselves as separate and distinct because we live in a dualistic world that sees God as someone.
00;49;03;21 - 00;49;21;10
Joshua Hoffert
I mean, we think that God, when he speaks to us, is thundering through the heavens. And every now and then we kind of pick up on what he's saying. But we don't see that picture in Scripture. We see a God that whispers, and he's near. Do you think about that? Elijah on the mountain of Horeb, when he when he hears the he goes, the great storm comes.
00;49;21;10 - 00;49;38;20
Joshua Hoffert
God's on in the storm. Great earthquake comes, God's on in the earthquake wave. Fire comes, goes on in the fire. And it says, a still small voice. Do you know how close you have to be to someone to hear them speak in a still, small voice? You have to be right next to them. This is a revelation of Emmanuel, God with us.
00;49;38;20 - 00;49;58;14
Joshua Hoffert
God is not separate and distinct from his creation. He wants to embody his creation through his people. And if we started to reframe around that, the conversation around anxiety and peace would be much different. Okay, why don't with that? Why don't we go into our break? We'll take because we're now, you know, we've been gone for a little bit of an hour.
00;49;58;14 - 00;50;18;17
Joshua Hoffert
I hope I gave you some things to try and wrap your brain around, and, and just give you some things to think about. So what we're going to do is break for five minutes. and, use the restroom if you need to get a drink. If you need to. We'll come back, open it up to Murray and Ron.
00;50;18;29 - 00;50;24;06
Joshua Hoffert
open it up to your questions, and, we'll move from there. Sound good? Guys?
00;50;24;09 - 00;50;25;05
Ron Huxley
Great.
00;50;25;08 - 00;50;30;01
Joshua Hoffert
Okay.
00;50;30;03 - 00;50;37;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I thinking you do. You need a you need a fight, bill. Right here. Just type thinking. Do I sound,
00;50;38;01 - 00;50;38;13
Joshua Hoffert
It's like.
00;50;38;18 - 00;50;39;28
Murray Dueck
Come on.
00;50;40;01 - 00;50;41;02
Ron Huxley
Yeah, it's.
00;50;41;05 - 00;50;41;13
Murray Dueck
Anywhere.
00;50;41;14 - 00;50;43;29
Ron Huxley
Yes. Okay. Once I get.
00;50;44;01 - 00;50;47;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I'm get I'm ready.
00;50;47;12 - 00;50;49;08
Joshua Hoffert
I got very good.
00;50;49;10 - 00;50;52;21
Murray Dueck
Should I wait a little bit for everybody's here or should we wait a little bit.
00;50;52;24 - 00;50;55;06
Joshua Hoffert
You have some you have thoughts. You're chomping at the bit.
00;50;55;14 - 00;50;56;12
Murray Dueck
yeah. Okay.
00;50;56;13 - 00;51;19;02
Joshua Hoffert
You go. Yeah. Well, we're recording so we can go. I will say this before you jump off. jump off the deep end. Jump in. Yeah. Jump in. That's right. Okay. Anybody? If you have questions, comments, thoughts, something you want us to elaborate on? something I said that piqued your curiosity? You know, anything like that?
00;51;19;28 - 00;51;28;03
Joshua Hoffert
put them in the chat and we'll we'll attempt to get to all those things as well. So, feel free to, try and stump us, too.
00;51;28;05 - 00;51;29;10
Murray Dueck
So, hey.
00;51;29;21 - 00;51;35;28
Joshua Hoffert
Murray's got thoughts. He wants to dive right in. So, Ron, will you. We'll concede to Murray right off the bat.
00;51;36;01 - 00;51;37;28
Ron Huxley
Yeah. I'm not going to hold him back.
00;51;38;01 - 00;52;10;18
Murray Dueck
Okay? I just, I, you know, I just want to kind of apply some of the things that you're saying, you know, because, so everybody how does this how does this affect you application. So, you know, there would be something orthodoxy. Right? Theology. Ortho praxis. Right. Practice. Right. So, so how does it how does this affect you? so, you know, you would you, John Sanford, the guy that, you know, founded Elijah House, would use the term, those static agnostic, rationalism.
00;52;10;20 - 00;52;32;23
Murray Dueck
And, and so I'm just going to give I just want to give you a demonstration. So the realms are cut into two. There's a spiritual realm. There's a physical realm. Real simple, Aristotelian descent, Aristotelian rational. So Aristotle basically taught you got your five senses. That's all you got. Reason, touching, feeling, thinking. sight. That's it. God is unknowable.
00;52;32;23 - 00;52;54;11
Murray Dueck
He, as Isaac Newton said, you wound up the universe and left. That would be that thinking he's unknowable. Right. And, so we would think maybe that church is sacred and work is secular, right? Right. That that kind of thing. We're divide. Play is sacred. I can't be in play. I can't watch a movie and meet God because that's secular.
00;52;54;14 - 00;53;21;14
Murray Dueck
I got to go to church. Right? So we're, you know, we're dividing things up. Well, if you can't be God when you play, maybe you have anxiety. Well, who taught you to not meet God when you play your culture game, where does that come from? So so you have to think one reason it's good to look at early church people, right, is because their pre scientific reason, they're pre industrial revolution.
00;53;21;17 - 00;53;48;22
Murray Dueck
They're pre age of romantics. they're pre scholasticism. They're pre middle age and middle age thinking they're the way they're looking at the Bible is so different than us. So and that's really important. How how reformed. So think of it like this. Let's just do do something. Let's see if this works. let's see if Josh and Ron can define American culture.
00;53;48;25 - 00;53;54;28
Murray Dueck
What's it? Give me definition of what it is to be an American.
00;53;55;00 - 00;53;57;13
Murray Dueck
Oh, I might get you in trouble. This is being recorded, right?
00;53;57;16 - 00;53;58;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.
00;53;59;01 - 00;54;00;25
Ron Huxley
a positive or a negative?
00;54;00;29 - 00;54;08;29
Joshua Hoffert
A positive one or a negative one. Yeah. That's right. Oh, my. My definition of American culture is that no other culture exists.
00;54;09;01 - 00;54;11;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;54;11;02 - 00;54;12;21
Joshua Hoffert
That's American culture.
00;54;12;23 - 00;54;14;27
Ron Huxley
Entitled I think is kind of a big one.
00;54;15;00 - 00;54;17;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.
00;54;17;13 - 00;54;41;12
Murray Dueck
I, I've heard in California, I mean, when I would go down in the States, there would be American television. But if you go down to California, there's just the news. It's just California. That's it. You know, it was it was it was quite something. So how about the people watching you Canadian define for me Canadian culture. Now, I bet you Ron and Josh made really easy.
00;54;41;12 - 00;54;44;27
Murray Dueck
But who out there as a Canadian define for me Canadian culture.
00;54;47;01 - 00;54;49;16
Joshua Hoffert
it's a good thought experiment. Murray.
00;54;49;18 - 00;54;50;24
Murray Dueck
You can do it.
00;54;50;26 - 00;54;53;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right. You can write in the comments or unmute yourself and.
00;54;54;01 - 00;54;54;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;54;54;18 - 00;54;56;26
Joshua Hoffert
And, give a thought.
00;54;56;26 - 00;55;03;14
Murray Dueck
Most classes I've ever asked question for, they stare at me blankly because they don't know Sarah Coker.
00;55;03;14 - 00;55;04;02
Joshua Hoffert
00;55;04;05 - 00;55;04;14
Ron Huxley
Yeah.
00;55;04;15 - 00;55;06;08
Joshua Hoffert
So, Saskatchewan doesn't exist.
00;55;06;23 - 00;55;08;08
Murray Dueck
they're Canadian culture.
00;55;08;11 - 00;55;10;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's Canadian culture.
00;55;10;29 - 00;55;34;24
Murray Dueck
Some people say Wayne Gretzky. Right. Well, Tim Horton like, that's our culture that the person in. Yeah. Right. Define. But see the the reason it's hard to do is you're so in doc. You're so baptized in it. You're soaked in it. You can't see that it's actually affecting you. there is a story of this lady they found walking the LA highway once had amnesia.
00;55;34;26 - 00;56;02;08
Murray Dueck
She didn't know who she was. And, typically Canadian. No comment. Thank you. There you go. and because this lady was so polite, the American, the cop said she must be a Canadian. And it turns out she was from Edmonton, right? Because she's polite. Right. So, and we might define ourselves like that. I, I was doing something in, this group in San Luis Obispo here with this church, and we were praying through all the old Spanish missions.
00;56;02;10 - 00;56;06;05
Joshua Hoffert
That's in California. For those that don't know that he's talking about California.
00;56;06;07 - 00;56;09;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So yeah, kind of mid California kind of where it runs from that here.
00;56;09;21 - 00;56;10;27
Joshua Hoffert
That's where I grew up. Yeah.
00;56;10;29 - 00;56;29;17
Murray Dueck
Yeah yeah. And so you know they were going on one of these missions. So it's half functioning Catholic church half museum. So we're praying through the grounds and all that stuff. And when it came time to go into the sanctuary, it's a working Catholic church. And on the stage they have this spot for the communion elements, which to them were the very body and blood of Christ.
00;56;29;24 - 00;56;47;23
Murray Dueck
And there's a velvet rope, red velvet rope with the sign do not cross. So I went in front and I as a Canadian, I got up to the rope and I went, oh, I can't go up there, right? And I'll be married. My French. I'll walk past the rope, went up on to the platform of this church and started to declare.
00;56;47;27 - 00;57;11;29
Murray Dueck
We declare over the Catholic Church forgiveness for all the murdered babies and all the. And they're like, come on up and say something. And I'm like, there's a velvet rope. I mean, I can't, I can't do that. That's not polite. Right? So there's there's effects of culture. Okay. Now how does that affect your interaction with God. So think about this.
00;57;12;26 - 00;57;32;02
Murray Dueck
early on in the church, you'll see lots of stuff about dreams. We'll just talk about one little aspect, because if we're we're ascetic, we've got a physical realm and we've got a spiritual realm. And, you know, it's a little bit like Isaac Newton wound up the universe. He left. Where's God? He's he's not here. Right. So in the early church, dreams are very, very significant.
00;57;32;02 - 00;58;01;21
Murray Dueck
A third of your Bible, for example, relates to a dream or vision. Now a third. Right. So John Sanford would say, you could tell by Paul his vision by Solomon, he was going to be a great King Abraham. He would become a spiritual father by the revelations they had. Right. Well, when you get a little bit further down church history, they begin to say revelation is only for bishops and priests, for those who are trained.
00;58;01;21 - 00;58;21;26
Murray Dueck
Right. So now the average person is not allowed to have it anymore. Right? You get a little bit further into history where where it begins to say, in about 1928, I remember this quote. I don't have it in front of me. now, Matt and his rational mind has come to the point in a scientific development, but he needs no more symbolic language.
00;58;21;29 - 00;58;48;24
Murray Dueck
The waking thoughts of prophets and dreams and a half waking rational mind are now beneath man for logic has begun to dominate, and we have evolved past this. Well. So you have something like the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, which is International Christian, Christian International Standard Bible Encyclopedia that says dreams are abnormal and sometimes pathological. This is a Christian dictionary.
00;58;48;27 - 00;59;02;12
Murray Dueck
Sleep should have sleep should have relative little significance. The Bible holds relatively little significance about dreams. This is this is a Bible. This is a Bible dictionary. Where did they get that?
00;59;02;15 - 00;59;05;06
Joshua Hoffert
They hadn't read the Bible dictionary. Hasn't read the Bible.
00;59;05;13 - 00;59;30;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah, well, there's a belief in some Christian circles called dispensationalism that when the Bible is written, God quit speaking. Well, you know, one reason you don't remember your dreams. Somebody taught you that, right? Do you dream? Everybody dreams 45 minutes to an hour and a half every night. Everybody. Right. So if you go to a sleep lab at Stanford or Oxford, you'll wake you up when your eyes are playing ping pong.
00;59;30;24 - 00;59;52;12
Murray Dueck
You know, REM sleep, and they'll put a tape recorder in front of you, and you'll wake up in the morning and they go, I didn't dream it. Well, listen to this. And there's your voice telling your dream. How did you learn not to remember your dreams? So stick Aristotelian rationalism, right? Because we get up in the morning and we think, okay, what do I going to do?
00;59;52;14 - 01;00;08;22
Murray Dueck
What? Have I got a plan? Where do I need to go? We start thinking things get off going. You know what? Something valuable might have happened last night. The spirit realm. I've been here, and you roll over to the other side. So? So the effects you feel of that, what are some of the blocks that are blocking us?
01;00;08;24 - 01;00;26;05
Murray Dueck
And it comes from the culture, like Josh. Josh is talking about right? That we grow up in this stuff. Can we get out of it? Absolutely. Why are we here? We have our hunger in our heart to know that the King of peace, that hunger, that desire, is the voice of God, right? But it takes it takes time.
01;00;26;10 - 01;00;51;05
Murray Dueck
So. So just like it's hard for you to define Canadian culture, why? Because you're in it every day. and it's so normal to you and so natural. You don't think twice about it. Well, that's my reality. Well, that that kind of thinking we've adopted to how we hear God's voice, how we relate to one another and the Lord has to retrain us and basically bypass those things.
01;00;51;05 - 01;01;18;16
Murray Dueck
Right. So, let me throw at something to mess you up a little bit. One more and then I'll shut up. Okay, but but let's go. Let's go real early. Church thinking about Jesus. Okay. That's one reason that. Good to think about you looking at a church culture pre age of reason industrial revolution pre scientific you know method like let's get back there.
01;01;18;22 - 01;01;37;20
Murray Dueck
Right. So if I would sit down with my my Orthodox priest friend I said this to someone today and I would pick a fight with him. I would say okay buddy why do you guys have Jesus on the cross? Right? Our God is not dead. He's alive. Right? I mean, in my Mennonite church, we wouldn't have anything. Just a wooden cross.
01;01;37;26 - 01;01;57;09
Murray Dueck
That's it. Jesus. Definitely not on it. Right. And now the Orthodox and Catholic crosses are a little different. If you see an icon in an Orthodox church, you'll see Jesus, his hands raised up in victory. That's what that symbolism is for. Definitely. They don't have this kind of bloody mess, but but let's just kind of follow this thinking through.
01;01;57;10 - 01;02;20;15
Murray Dueck
I said, well, so, you know, I'm picking up picking a fight as an evangelical. And my friend father Mike, we go to you believe that Jesus is the exact representation of the father. And I have to say yes to that because that's in the Bible, right? And I go, yeah. And he goes, do you believe, though? So when Philip said to Jesus, show us the father, and then we'll believe.
01;02;20;18 - 01;02;39;01
Murray Dueck
And Jesus goes, when you've seen me, you've seen the photic. Do you believe that? Yes, I do. So this was his comment. So when you're looking at the cross, you're looking at perfect theology and you go, well, what do you mean by that? When you're looking at the cross, you're looking at the nature of God worshiping God the Father to you.
01;02;39;01 - 01;03;14;27
Murray Dueck
Right? He's the exact representation forgiving, merciful, kind, humble, patient, meek. That's the nature of God you're looking at on the cross. Well, how do we see the father often? Judge. Distant. irrelevant. Far away. Who taught us that Aristotelian tale set agnosticism right? Age of reason and that just that belief system right there. Just poking that up, pulled back a curtain of thought put upon us by culture.
01;03;15;00 - 01;03;46;09
Murray Dueck
How much closer to you feel? God, you can get to God if he's like that, right? Yeah. That's just a thinking. That's just a little thought experiment. Right. So those things are important. When culture affects us, we feel it. Normal doesn't mean it is. It can be retort. And we need to understand the thinking of the cross. But throughout 2000 years, see it's Lewis would say you need to read the Church Fathers every hundred years back if you want to get a broad scope.
01;03;46;11 - 01;04;06;13
Murray Dueck
And so just to kind of back up a little bit, you know, a little demonstration of what Josh is saying here that we need to understand there are things you can't get out of the matrix if you don't know you're in it. You want to put it that way, right? So I just wanted to point a few of those things out that, yeah, there are things and these things can change.
01;04;06;16 - 01;04;23;15
Murray Dueck
And simply maybe by learning how to remember your dreams that you all dream to get rid of that thing that blocks us, God is unknowable. I want to get rid of that. You start to remember your dreams. Believe it or not, that's one of the.
01;04;23;17 - 01;04;29;02
Murray Dueck
Let me. Can I throw one more because I have caffeine in me?
01;04;29;04 - 01;04;32;20
Joshua Hoffert
Well, what? Do you have any thoughts to respond to?
01;04;33;03 - 01;04;37;18
Ron Huxley
look, that's a Maria point. The next time I do. Yes. Know. Okay. Read.
01;04;37;21 - 01;05;05;03
Murray Dueck
Hi. Thank you. My last thought. Okay, so, you know, I spent about 7 or 8 years, eight, eight years sitting for lunch once a week with an orthodox pretty started out as a charismatic, you know, but just trying to understand another charismatic way. Very charismatic, you know, the Desert Fathers. and I said to him, you know, father Mike, you know, as a good evangelical, likes to do stuff, you know, let's do some missions.
01;05;05;03 - 01;05;22;10
Murray Dueck
Let's get some people saved lives. Right. And I said, why do you lock all your people up in monasteries? He goes, well, we don't lock them up. I was in the mood for a fight. So I was using pretty combative language because, well, we don't lock them up. But, you know, they pray for 20 and 30 years. So there's a different church culture.
01;05;22;10 - 01;05;41;19
Murray Dueck
They believe prayer is important and they invest in. And I go, you know what? You can go hang out there with one of those monks and they'll become your a friend. You really connect heart to heart, right? And they'll become your spiritual mom or dad for the rest of your life. How do you find spiritual moms and dads in your church culture?
01;05;41;21 - 01;06;14;13
Murray Dueck
I'm like, well, because you don't. Because it's not important. Teaching, right? That's rationalism, understanding. But what about heart to heart relationship? We're not investing in it in our culture. That's a cultural thing. And right, God wants moms and dads and spiritual fathers at first. John. Right. So but again, that's an aspect of culture which God how more peaceful would you be if you had a spiritual mom or dad who walked ahead of you and knew the road?
01;06;14;15 - 01;06;16;22
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, 100%.
01;06;16;24 - 01;06;33;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah. But you see, we made it all about if you had the right teaching, you're going to feel that way instead of the right spiritual mum to walk with. that's not the whole church by that. So anyway, final thought, Ron.
01;06;33;09 - 01;06;56;18
Ron Huxley
Yeah. Well, you know, I think we were really describing the roots of where a lot of our anxiety actually does come from and the false realities that we have put on ourselves. Understanding the nature of God, understanding ourselves and why wouldn't the fruit of that then be depression and anxiety?
01;06;56;19 - 01;06;58;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
01;06;58;08 - 01;07;29;00
Ron Huxley
You know, for example, I think, you know, the idea of of holding up thinking and intellectual ism as a God in itself or as a representation of what God really is, that's so well. And to one of the most common and most frustrating problems, are experiencing for people with anxiety is rumination, right? Negative thoughts, the intrusive negative thinking, and which is a problem of the of the mind, right.
01;07;29;00 - 01;07;54;20
Ron Huxley
It's an over thinking process. We overthink things. We worry about stuff. We we get anxious about things. We can't get that thought out of our mind. And that's because I think there's probably roots to this idea that you're describing that we are so overemphasizing our thoughts. Yeah, we get locked by ourselves as our own trap that we've set for ourselves.
01;07;54;23 - 01;08;22;05
Ron Huxley
And I think being able to take a more integrative, that's a word in clinical neuroscience would talk about integration, which is kind of the same idea of embodiment is kind of often used to. But integration, integrating this back into, the social context, back into the body, back into relationship with other people, is a way to, to fix that.
01;08;22;05 - 01;08;36;27
Ron Huxley
So much of the solutions from traditional mental health is trying to solve a intellectualized overthinking problem with more thoughts, right?
01;08;36;28 - 01;08;38;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
01;08;38;05 - 01;09;17;09
Ron Huxley
And so it's kind of like when you think of that way, you can't, solve the same problem with more of the same. It just doesn't really make sense. You have to work in I'll talk more about tomorrow. But really the, the key is I have to calm down this nervous system before I could even possibly try to develop new thinking or new behaviors, because the nervous system itself has become so hijacked and is now running the show.
01;09;17;12 - 01;09;20;09
Murray Dueck
Right now we throw the thought with that too. If that's okay.
01;09;20;11 - 01;09;23;00
Joshua Hoffert
Let me can I can I read a quick quote?
01;09;23;02 - 01;09;24;18
Murray Dueck
Absolutely.
01;09;24;20 - 01;09;37;03
Joshua Hoffert
Because I'm sure it'll go in with your thought because you just. Robbins made me think I, I've had this I have this quote up here, and I didn't know if I was like, I just had it up here, right? And I was going to talk about it. But one of the things you just said, Ron, really made me think about it.
01;09;37;03 - 01;09;57;22
Joshua Hoffert
And it's from, it's a bit of a longer quote, so bear with me. But it's from Ephrem the Syrian. So from the Syrian as a desert father. Yeah. And I love how again, you love talking about this. How when, when Ron's talking about calming the nervous system because it's taken on a life of its own and I can't even deal with the thoughts if I can't find that place of calmness.
01;09;57;25 - 01;10;28;02
Joshua Hoffert
And so Ephrem says this, because this is this is one of the classic examples of spiritual formation literature. when it comes to understanding the intersect between who I am and the spiritual reality around me. Yeah. So when you look at the Desert Fathers, the Desert Fathers, they would connect anxiety that, that, that, that system of thought, the nervous system has taken on a life of its own, that it has been influenced by a spiritual presence, and there's a spiritual reality behind that.
01;10;28;02 - 01;11;04;01
Joshua Hoffert
So this is what Ephrem says, he says, let's see when man resolves to abandon his vain way of life, filled with everyday worldly cares and and to work for God, submitting himself and being distressed for the sake of the Lord. Then the demons, envying the man's soul saving decision disturb his intellect in sundry ways, confusing him with muddled thoughts and preempt his resolution such that finding such a fragile vessel, they shatter it.
01;11;04;03 - 01;11;28;16
Joshua Hoffert
And this fragile vessel is the hesitant soul of little faith. When, however, and this is where it intersects really well with Ron, when, however, this person stands firm in his faith, then the thoughts gradually begin to quieten, and thus his heart grows calm. And once it's been rendered perfectly pure, it henceforth manifestly receives the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit.
01;11;28;18 - 01;11;29;08
Murray Dueck
Amen.
01;11;29;10 - 01;11;54;29
Joshua Hoffert
And so we've got that. We've got that, you know, I'm trying to get to God, and I want to go to God. And we've got now these spiritual forces around us that are going, no, we don't want that. And so then we've got this anxiety, worldly cares, the things we've filled ourselves with. And they all remember that. So basically the attack of and this is where I think, we need to reframe our thought process.
01;11;54;29 - 01;12;18;11
Joshua Hoffert
And this is why reframing our worldview around a, the embodied reality of who I am and not this distant spiritual reality that I need to escape to, is that spiritual warfare is not inherently a I'm yelling at the heavens. It's a wrestling with my own heart and a wrestling with the nervous system that's taken on a life of its own.
01;12;18;14 - 01;12;41;04
Joshua Hoffert
And so the thoughts that occurred to me, thoughts like, you're no good, you'll never amount to anything. You're not worth anything. Those are all seen as having demonic origins that then influence the this, this way of thinking to rob us of that place, that commitment we've had to Christ and say, you'll never you're not going to do it anyway.
01;12;41;04 - 01;12;57;00
Joshua Hoffert
So stop it. You're not going to do it anyway. So stop it. So those take on a life of its own, unless we can dial back and get into that place. Like, like Ephrem said, find that place of peace and begin to quiet the heart in there. I find my steadfastness.
01;12;57;03 - 01;13;21;20
Ron Huxley
Yeah. And that's where the spiritual practice is a like a stillness and solid right? Because when we look at that and think, well, okay, this is a spiritual practice, union with God and hearing God's voice, and they are all those things. But also think of that stillness and solitude as a way of retraining a nervous, nervous system.
01;13;21;22 - 01;13;22;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right?
01;13;22;21 - 01;13;38;26
Ron Huxley
You have to retrain it. Right? So the way to do that is you have to get it used to a calm, still place, because it's so used to be in the place of hurry and busy.
01;13;38;28 - 01;13;45;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right. One of the desert fathers says prayer is warfare until the last breath.
01;13;45;19 - 01;14;09;09
Joshua Hoffert
Which is what you've described, right, is retraining that nervous system through practices like silence and solitude, so that it becomes much more normative for me to find peace, as opposed to the chaos that I'm used to, because I'm so used to operating on that level. And so that in that way there's again, the intersection. Prayer is warfare until the last breath, which is essentially what you've just said.
01;14;09;11 - 01;14;33;00
Ron Huxley
Yeah, I think and I think it's the I like the demonic element to all that description that you gave to because, it, it's like it's what's, you know, the demons are the sin coming against us, right and right for our job. There's not as did not agree with what the enemy's telling us about ourselves. because the the prayer of is spirit.
01;14;33;02 - 01;14;56;18
Ron Huxley
Spiritual battle is prayer until the last breath. Or retrain through solitude and silence. That is that is our submission to God. That's. Yeah way of saying I'm agreeing with your reality of who I am and your perspective of who. Yeah, because I'm agreeing with these other realities, and these are creating this world of I need to do this solitude.
01;14;56;18 - 01;15;00;02
Ron Huxley
Perfect now. Right? So it's it's right.
01;15;00;05 - 01;15;01;20
Murray Dueck
Right. It's like you get it, right?
01;15;01;26 - 01;15;05;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah. And now I've failed miserably in my solitude.
01;15;05;06 - 01;15;08;01
Ron Huxley
So, And it just proves God is angry with you.
01;15;08;03 - 01;15;13;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Are you going to say.
01;15;14;21 - 01;15;35;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah, a couple things. now, how do you know you're stuck there? You know, just just application. I want to just throw it in application for for people who who listen. So how do you know? You know, you're you get we get stuck up here. Right? If I could just get the right answer. If I could just do it the right way, then finally, I would be happy, right?
01;15;35;26 - 01;15;36;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
01;15;36;19 - 01;15;58;03
Murray Dueck
So basically, in a Western culture, I have a degree, you know, if I want to be a senior pastor, a master's degree degrees. Good. But, but a doctorate is better, right? If I have some knowledge of language. if I could memorize a lot of scripture. So the thing is, we want knowledge to get so we can get the right answer to do it the right way.
01;15;58;06 - 01;16;10;09
Murray Dueck
Right? Right. How we want to line things up. Right. and you'll notice that the New Testament church wasn't birthed anything like that. Paul has a creepy dream before Peter, and he has no idea what it's about. Right? Right. And but weird.
01;16;10;09 - 01;16;12;22
Joshua Hoffert
Seed of strange animals.
01;16;12;25 - 01;16;16;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah. And God doesn't explain. Just rebukes. Eating.
01;16;16;25 - 01;16;17;27
Joshua Hoffert
Hey.
01;16;17;29 - 01;16;35;03
Murray Dueck
You ought to be what he's thinking. These voices. This. But, you know, when you're working with the Lord, he tries to lead you into this inner land in our land. Right? So he's going to give you he might give you, a dream to ponder, an impression to pray for somebody or this longing to be with him.
01;16;35;05 - 01;16;54;26
Murray Dueck
Right. And then as you're with him, then you begin to change, right? It's relational. So let me just give you a quick little example. How do you know which belief system you're walking in? How do you how do you know where you're stuck? Because again, it's culturally we're baptized in it. We don't know. So I was out for a walk one day trying to figure out something.
01;16;54;26 - 01;17;10;00
Murray Dueck
We might have been out of money or making a decision in the church. I think it was making a decision in the church I was pastoring and I'm worshiping. I'm hanging out with a Lord. I start to think about the problem and I'm like, Lord, what am I supposed to do? And he goes, what do you think of those bushes over there?
01;17;10;00 - 01;17;31;23
Murray Dueck
Hey, those are nice bushes. I'm like, what? I can't be God, right? You start all over, worship, hang out with the Lord, think about problem. Really, really big problem. Get overwhelmed about problem. Lord what? How do I fix this? And he goes, what do you think of those trees over there? Those are nice trees. And I'm like, and then I got it.
01;17;31;26 - 01;17;48;25
Murray Dueck
You know what? I could hear the Lord speak. He just didn't want to talk about what I wanted to talk about. Right. Because I wanted to pump God for my answers to do something because I'm all about knowledge and I'm all about I've got a God to perform. That's Western culture. But God wanted to hang out with me.
01;17;48;26 - 01;18;14;26
Murray Dueck
Now, how do you know you're stuck there? If you're asking God a question about something and you're not getting an answer and you're beating yourself up, I can't hear. God is defeated. He hates me. I can't figure it out. That's because you're trying to get the right answer, to do it the right way. And because it isn't fulfilling your checklist, you're trying to motivate yourself by self criticism to live up to Western thinking, right?
01;18;14;28 - 01;18;40;20
Murray Dueck
Instead. So this is how you test it. Change the topic. Ask God about your family, your kids, your church, anything. And if he talks to you about that, you have no problem hearing right? He just doesn't want to talk to you. But what you want to talk about because you want an answer, well, God wants a relationship, right now, but we get stuck there and and you have to learn to go, okay, I'm not hearing I'm starting to get self-critical.
01;18;40;21 - 01;19;06;03
Murray Dueck
My thinking is starting to pick up. I better change the topic and instead of pumping for answers, be still, I know right? Be still and know he got and break that cycle going on. I just wanted to throw that out. And Saint Basil would say, just quickly write the the outward things in the inward because the voice of the Lord is in here, the outward things.
01;19;06;06 - 01;19;31;15
Murray Dueck
If a man hears the tidings of war every day and keeps defiling his his heart with all this stuff, how well, how will the cup ever become clean? Right? So the outward things, tensions, frustrations that they didn't, the internal, the peace, the stillness and stillness and time spent with the Lord deaden the external to no God, to no rest.
01;19;31;15 - 01;19;56;12
Murray Dueck
Learning to calm that nervous system down. Like Ron's talking about stillness. You know, in that place of being with God, not just pumping him for what we need. Right? Stepping into. He's here with me right now. So anyway, I just wanted to show, how do you how do you break that cycle? Sometimes all you got to do to get out of it is change the topic.
01;19;56;14 - 01;20;17;21
Ron Huxley
Yeah. You know, and piggybacking on that, I think it's, trying to break it down to the smallest bite size piece. so, I mean, just being able to practice having conversations with God about little things throughout the day, have like, you know, what do you think of this color? Yellow. You know, what's your favorite ice cream?
01;20;17;21 - 01;20;24;26
Ron Huxley
You know, do you like country music? And so just things like, you know, you have God, he really doesn't like country music.
01;20;24;29 - 01;20;27;20
Murray Dueck
But I was curious.
01;20;28;16 - 01;20;29;05
Ron Huxley
yeah, he does.
01;20;29;05 - 01;20;31;06
Joshua Hoffert
But they sing about him all the time.
01;20;31;08 - 01;21;02;14
Ron Huxley
Yeah, he does, like classic rock and roll is to beat. And so, there's this element of like, even that. Some people would be like, oh my God. Well, you know, that's so, you know, so blasphemous to say things like that, but just having little conversations, I think, and getting used to that, is a great way to retrain the nervous system or to stop and stop the rumination by asking about little, little, little elements of the day and having conversations with them about the the simple day.
01;21;02;14 - 01;21;13;25
Ron Huxley
Like, I don't know, I think it was Josh, you're talking about the separation between the sacred and the secular, and we've made that such a divide where really, you're not meant to be separate.
01;21;13;27 - 01;21;16;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, no. They're not. Absolutely.
01;21;17;01 - 01;21;17;27
Murray Dueck
Really.
01;21;17;29 - 01;21;41;22
Joshua Hoffert
I remember teaching a at a, Rose and he was just at a prophetic training event, and, the person I don't think I was teaching, I think I was just watching it and I remember the the teacher said something to the effect that, you know, like, if you're in the car driving, just ask God. Like, what's the next radio?
01;21;41;24 - 01;22;04;13
Joshua Hoffert
What's the next song is in to come on the radio and develop this conversational lifestyle with, with the Lord. Right. And and ask him what your pastor is going to speak about on Sunday and just, you know, this is, you know, intentionally with with for prophetic people. We're trying to this teacher was trying to get them in that idea of having this conversation about God, about, you know, what's going to happen.
01;22;04;16 - 01;22;16;15
Joshua Hoffert
And I remember one of the people raising their hand and going, excuse me. why would God care about what song is next on the radio show?
01;22;16;17 - 01;22;17;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Right.
01;22;18;01 - 01;22;38;10
Joshua Hoffert
And and I and it's like, it's so perfectly accentuated our view of how much he doesn't care about us. Right? Because it's not about the radio. It doesn't care about the song. It's not about the song. He cares about you. So he wants to have the conversation with you, right? But it's always it's always framed around. Why would he care?
01;22;38;13 - 01;22;57;01
Joshua Hoffert
And and I just thought, oh, you know, in retrospect, right. I it's like, oh, it's so sad that we've been taught that about him, that he doesn't care when Jesus came, as I was saying earlier, Jesus came and goes, guys, all of life revolves around walking in a way with your heart, united with the father. That is life.
01;22;57;01 - 01;23;18;16
Joshua Hoffert
That is reality. And you're gonna you're going to unite with something. So it may as well be God. And and you're like, but but we've communicated. We have a God that doesn't care about that union. And and it's just like, oh, it's so sad when that's what we walk through life with the God that is uncaring. When we've got a, when we walk with a God that's so, merciful.
01;23;18;21 - 01;23;40;13
Joshua Hoffert
I love, Sarah, posted in the chat there, Saint Teresa of Avila. Actually, before I get to that one, I want to, respond to Elizabeth's. That was further up. She says, I believe you're touching on union with Jesus and then God living with us, which is true. But the one caveat I want to make when we talk about union is union is not something I do.
01;23;40;16 - 01;24;04;20
Joshua Hoffert
Union is something he has done that I've entered into. And so we have to when our conversation about union can't be about my effort to be united with him because I didn't do anything to earn it, deserve it or, or, or make it. He did. And so as long as we're talking about a union that God has done and invited me into and I'm the recipient of it, and my responsibility is just to be open to it.
01;24;04;23 - 01;24;30;15
Joshua Hoffert
I'm great with having a conversation about union, but as soon as union becomes the thing I perform to acquire, then I then as soon as I've lost any kind of performance or it fails, or I have a day where I'm angry with my children, I'm the failure and God's no longer with me. You know, that's the assumption. And so I have to reframe it around Union is God first he did it, he invited me into it, and I live from that.
01;24;30;15 - 01;24;53;08
Joshua Hoffert
And the invitation is always back into that place. So if I walk away from it, it's not a failure on it's not so much that it's all falling apart and I failed. It's it. I've departed from that. And so now I need to get back to that. My litmus test now for like if people say to me at my first thought, usually when and I don't normally answer the question this way, but if people say to me, oh, how are you today?
01;24;53;10 - 01;25;17;16
Joshua Hoffert
Like my first thought is, do I? It really usually revolves around how connected with the heart of God do I feel like that's really how am I today is really defined by m m I functioning in that place of union and and that and I'm aware of it and it's tangible to me. Or have I lost that? And I need to get back to that.
01;25;17;20 - 01;25;30;20
Joshua Hoffert
That's how I'm doing on a daily basis, right? I don't usually answer it in that kind of language, but that's how I'm doing when I, I think about, you know, like while the kids are fine and you go through all the, you know, the, the stuff that you normally do with it, how are you today? But how are you today?
01;25;30;20 - 01;25;48;28
Joshua Hoffert
Is is my heart connected with the father okay? Yeah it is. I'm good. So everything else can be chaotic. It doesn't matter. My heart is connected with them and as long as it's connected with them, I can find that place of peace. All those automatic nervous system issues that have forced anxiety on me I'm no longer struggling as much with.
01;25;49;01 - 01;26;16;04
Joshua Hoffert
Although, like we said, prayer is warfare. Until your last breath that, Anthony the Great said, remove temptation and no one can be saved. So because you have nothing to be saved from and you have nothing. And so I the one of the things I wanted to highlight in bringing forth this idea of the dualistic worldview we live in is that you can't when it comes to anxiety, you can't separate the spiritual presence from it, from the physical presence of it.
01;26;16;06 - 01;26;39;25
Joshua Hoffert
And we, we, we usually think of ourselves like like imagine Murray does this really well. and I know Murray does this really well because I've talked with Murray a lot about this and I've watched him do it. I can't speak to Ron doing it, but I'm going to guess that Ron does this really well to, if you were to think how many of you ever had a broken heart.
01;26;39;28 - 01;27;08;01
Joshua Hoffert
You know, basically everybody can raise your hand. Did that broken heart exist as an idea or a thought process disembodied from you? Know, you can point to the place you felt it. Like almost every single one of us can say, if you said, where did you feel that emotion? You probably felt it somewhere in your gut. Some kind of sinking, heavy feeling that never left you or, you know, maybe eventually left you but wouldn't leave you.
01;27;08;01 - 01;27;30;06
Joshua Hoffert
And it was just present with you that the the the separation of your emotions, your identity, your thoughts about yourself and the feelings in your body. You know, there's not a distinction between those things, but because we have this dualistic worldview, we make the distinction. And so then we when we think about a demonic force, we don't think about a demonic force that would say, oh, I see that broken heart.
01;27;30;11 - 01;27;52;22
Joshua Hoffert
I'm going to say, you're right, you're never good enough. And so I'm going to work on training the automatic nervous system to think through that chaotic thought and adopt that chaotic thought until we we separate all those things out and not realize. Actually, like Murray said, I am a spiritual being embodied in a physical body. And I can't separate all those things out because it's the wholeness of who I am.
01;27;52;24 - 01;28;10;26
Joshua Hoffert
And and so, you know, that's my thoughts. That's that's very much the Desert Fathers that they very much so think through that, the passions and the vices and the virtues, they all have a spiritual origin. You can't have a thought that doesn't have a spiritual origin or something spiritual attached to it.
01;28;10;29 - 01;28;37;06
Ron Huxley
Can I jump on that? Thought it because that's such a wonderful point and because we're talking about identity versus circumstances, you know, and so if I look at who I am in terms of who God says that I am, I can be made very I can be a peaceful person having a very anxious day. Yes. Right. And I could be a very joyful person going through a very depressing moment or season in my life.
01;28;37;06 - 01;29;00;15
Ron Huxley
Yeah, because one is my identity and the other is my circumstance. Yeah. My circumstances do not get to to define my identity. God gets to define my identity. And then I need to operate from identity, not for it. Because I think a lot of times we get caught up in our circumstances and then we begin to feel like, well, I'm a depressed person.
01;29;00;15 - 01;29;21;21
Ron Huxley
I'm anxious person. No you're not, because that's not who God created you to be. Yeah, you're having an anxious life or a situation that your identity is not on that. Yeah. And so we have to kind of go back and say to God, who do you say I am? Yeah. So that we can then declare that over our circumstance.
01;29;21;23 - 01;29;44;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So good, so good. I think that's probably, looking at and then getting to Sarah's point, from Ron branching into there where she says, Teresa of Avila hints or says that there's spiritual warfare in the soul as we venture to the interior castle. So she's referencing the book Interior Castles. You get to the center where God is, or the Crystal, but that's a little confusing part.
01;29;44;09 - 01;30;13;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. And, and the way the the path that Teresa describes, the first few, rooms of the mansion or the castle, the first few, places you move through are full of serpents and scorpions and things that would hinder your ability to move forward until you move past those things and you bit, you begin discovering God at the center of who you are, which is, as Ron, I think you could characterize that identity of who you are.
01;30;13;16 - 01;30;40;21
Joshua Hoffert
The closer you draw to that, the closer that the crystal is something incredibly clear, right? That it brings so much clarity and it brings and, you know, when light shines through a crystal, it refracts everywhere. And you see beauty and and so when when Teresa I'm I it's been a while since I've read interior castles, but when she describes the interior as the crystal is because the crystal reflects everything about God, and it's the place of perfect beauty.
01;30;40;23 - 01;31;02;00
Joshua Hoffert
So you've moved beyond all those things that hinder your ability to find God. Because, I mean, it goes back to one of the great prayers of the mystical tradition is, God, teach me to know myself, that I might know you. And that's actually even Calvin says that that's Augustine, the one who prays that. But Calvin actually says that there's no one who could know God without first knowing their self, knowing themselves.
01;31;02;03 - 01;31;33;11
Joshua Hoffert
And and so I love what, Ron, what you're talking about to just in the practical sense, is calming those nerves so that you can I can actually see what that identity might be because I, I can't see what it is. There's no way I can make steps there. But and if I'm living in that place of chaos and I never come to that place where I says, actually, no, I'm, I'm going to still that I'm going to intentionally practice stilling that so that I can see, you know, as in the language of Teresa, the crystal that God has created within me.
01;31;33;13 - 01;31;38;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
01;31;38;06 - 01;31;40;26
Joshua Hoffert
Any other thoughts, guys?
01;31;40;28 - 01;32;02;23
Murray Dueck
Well, I hope, I hope Ron's going to unpack that about being a peaceful person in an anxious situation a little bit, you know, just a little more for me. but, you know, just the thought of the Desert Fathers again, that that we are not our thoughts. Right? Yeah. And and we're taking every thought captive. And I know so many Christians, we stumble over that.
01;32;02;25 - 01;32;22;19
Murray Dueck
Oh my goodness. You know, I, I'm just so full of shame and guilt and we're listening to all this stuff. But I got to take a hold of myself, you know, and it doesn't bother us. If we go, well, why don't we just ignore it instead and just sit with Jesus? Right. Let's. And and how do you how do you how do you learn to be still enough.
01;32;22;19 - 01;32;42;21
Murray Dueck
Right. Yeah. So. And to to know because in your deepest part you're in God's spirit or one that's that's who you are, right? Yeah. You you're this temple and and how do you live out of that place, sitting on that throne, observing everything rather than being caught up in it?
01;32;42;23 - 01;32;43;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.
01;32;44;01 - 01;32;52;13
Murray Dueck
So I mean, maybe that's another way to day it I maybe I said it, Ron just said it so much better. So I'm looking forward to hearing that I am.
01;32;52;13 - 01;32;52;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.