As we continue to dive into the concept of bridal intimacy in the church age, what implications does this have on how and why we "do church?" Some seem to think the church should be the moral arbiter of the age, the judicial witness to God's judgement, or the place of warfare against contemporary culture. But what if there is a different way? Join Josh and Murray as they talk about the church as it flows from the bridal paradigm.
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Josh Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
As we continue to dive into the concept of bridal intimacy in the church age, what implications does this have on how and why we "do church?" Some seem to think the church should be the moral arbiter of the age, the judicial witness to God's judgement, or the place of warfare against contemporary culture. But what if there is a different way? Join Josh and Murray as they talk about the church as it flows from the bridal paradigm.
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Josh Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
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Joshua Hoffert
The idea of what the church is as a witness in our age is is typically not the, the the the church as a place of healing. It's the church as a place of warfare. The church is a place of judicial witness. the church is the moral arbiter of the age.
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Murray Dueck
Welcome, everybody, to.
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Joshua Hoffert
Voices from the desert. Desert, desert.
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Murray Dueck
A, you.
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Murray Dueck
You know, if my dog. You said he's going to go crazy, I don't know, I'm thinking about it. That the coyote is, He just killed the chicken in my neighbor's yard the other day, and, boy, he's on that. He's on the death watch list now.
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Joshua Hoffert
So the coyote is.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah. Well, we just got.
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Joshua Hoffert
This,
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Murray Dueck
You know, we're going to get some old English Sheepdog puppies.
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Joshua Hoffert
just born.
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Murray Dueck
But as a stopgap, we got this two year old Pyrenees, Great Pyrenees slash border collie because we need someone who's going to be up at night and somebody's house like that. There's going to be trouble. So, Yeah. It's interesting. I just thought, oh, coyotes. I'm beginning to think of them as a bad guy right there. You know, it's like, oh, I'm having a oh, I need some healing in my heart.
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Murray Dueck
But that's all for today.
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Joshua Hoffert
Well, that is well. And that is well before the Segway though. Let's say this just to give people context again, because maybe people are tuning in for the first time where we haven't talked about it for a while. Yeah. For those of you that don't know, my friend Murray Derek, who's my co-host, he and his wife run a animal sanctuary, a farm for animals that are recovering from the situations.
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Joshua Hoffert
They're in Eden's Way Farm sanctuary. And people come and they volunteer, and you guys take care of the animals and Murray was just telling me that he likes singing songs to them.
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Murray Dueck
I do.
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Joshua Hoffert
With different lyrics.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah, I'm going to put that on YouTube at some point. I think it'll be a big hit.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yes, yes. Murray singing and making up his lyrics. The yes, limericks. I think they might call us. Right.
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Murray Dueck
Well, today I came up with one two, but I just can't. The band, the band. What was their. One of their big hits was Life Is a Carnival and I was like, life is a carnival. And now I'm thinking the church is a hospital.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, well, the church is also a carnival, so. Yeah. Unfortunately. Unfortunately, yeah. Yeah, it's not supposed to be, but it ends up being that way. Yeah. And and then I'm Josh Halford. I run wind ministries. Memory also runs Samuels mantle.
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Murray Dueck
We like to do besides my singing career.
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Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah.
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Murray Dueck
I like.
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Joshua Hoffert
That. We like. Oh we like helping people encounter. Yes. The presence of God. Right?
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Murray Dueck
Yeah. It's a passion. You know, I just going to throw this out there that, you know, it's funny like I'm doing a first year class right now and, and, you know, people from all over the state. So it's really pretty interesting. And, and it's funny to me, I mean, God bless. I mean, these people, you know, some of them have.
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Murray Dueck
Really high education and hearing and prophecy. but they cannot picture at all. And we're not just talking 1 or 2. We're talking like, I mean, the ones that I've talked to because I don't know them all. Well, four or 5 or 6, that your church is so trained people not to be able to, to, to be able to see I as I, I just such a passion that we want people to to hear the voice of the Lord.
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Murray Dueck
Both people, Josh and I a personal relationship. and so I mean win ministries for Josh. You can look that up or Samuel's mantle for me and and,
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Joshua Hoffert
The links for that are always in the, the links for those are always. Yeah. So description. Yeah.
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Murray Dueck
And you know what my favorite book right now charismatic book and hearing God's voice.
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Joshua Hoffert
The Bible.
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Murray Dueck
Well, maybe number two. Not favorite. The other favorite the Joe. Oh, the Jesuit guide to almost everything.
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Joshua Hoffert
Oh, really?
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Murray Dueck
Somebody said this is a lot like Samuel's mantle. And I went, no way, there's no way. And you know what?
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Joshua Hoffert
Right?
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Murray Dueck
There is a lot of similarity there. I'm really.
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Joshua Hoffert
Interesting. Right?
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Murray Dueck
I just want to say kudos to who, you know, the guy that wrote that book. And it's good to get, you know, as Josh and I as you know, we like going through church history and culture. I was I was really, shocked and amazed at what a what a great book on learning how to hear God's voice that was, you know, you got to get past some Jesuit introduction.
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Murray Dueck
And who are they and what are they all about? And but wow. You know, I'm just going to give a shout out to that book so.
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Joshua Hoffert
Well, that and that's the reason why we like going through church history and culture and forming. That is because we find we find these windows that we look into and we go, that looks familiar. Yes. Right. And then and then we see what they have to say and we go, oh my goodness, that's so helpful. It's not. And I think it's not that we go, you know, everybody's guilty of this to a certain degree.
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Joshua Hoffert
But it's not that we try and look back and go, well, let's find a thing in church history that validates our present experience, is that we look at in church history, we go, there's similarity there. Now, this back here in church history is actually giving me instruction. Yes, to help me understand what's happening me to today though. Well, and so I'm not trying to I'm not trying to have a confirmation bias that's saying, well, look, I the way I'm doing it, it's the way they used to do it.
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Joshua Hoffert
Well, no, because we live in 21st century. They didn't have cell phones. We do we we live in a distracted, disengaged world. It's totally different pressures, everything. But when I see some of the instruction, I go, oh, that's so helpful.
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Murray Dueck
The Holy Spirit, you know, and and.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
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Murray Dueck
You know, I think, you know what? I grew up in the Mennonite background and I was in Bible college, so it's quite interesting. They always say, we always say, like, almost every class, we need need to get back to the first century church. We need to go back to the first century church.
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Joshua Hoffert
Right.
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Murray Dueck
And then they would only quote Luther forward. There was the apostles in the Bible and then Luther for it and nothing. You would never talk about it because it was all considered kind of heretical and. Right. And and it's interesting, you know, as the years of research and study and reading these guys, you realize same Holy Spirit maturing his church, working with the bride of Christ.
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Murray Dueck
And you go, I know that guy. You read these stories. He goes, I know that guy, you know? And, that's right, that's right. And, it's really for me. If you go back to Josh and I's very first episodes of voices from the desert and realize how we got here, it was kind of like, you know, I.
00;07;17;06 - 00;07;30;18
Murray Dueck
Because I came when I became a charismatic very much. It's about growing only. It's only about growing the church. It's only about numbers. It's only about end times. It's only about vision. And but it's always about doing.
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Joshua Hoffert
And that's right.
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Murray Dueck
And when the Lord said, actually, you've got that wrong. What do you mean? You know, why did you want to know how I do things? As, C.S. Lewis would say, read the Church Fathers every hundred years back, right. What has God been doing throughout his church? And you know what? It's about the formation of the individual to become, what a broad.
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Murray Dueck
Whew. We're back on topic.
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Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right. The you know, before before we get there, I, I've got a I've got a new lyric that you can incorporate into your.
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Murray Dueck
One of my.
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Joshua Hoffert
Songs you're singing. Yeah. I, I got a text message from my wife today. you're putting this on air, are we? We married. Knows exactly. Cause I already started this. She was letting me know that, she had put the chicken. She'd put chicken in, buttermilk to marinate it for dinner tonight. Right? Yeah. And this is all.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. I can't even say with a straight face. So she texted me because I was going. I told her I'd make dinner. Just the chicken needs to be marinated. Yeah. And, the the notification popped up from the get go, and it said.
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Joshua Hoffert
This is what you have to incorporate into your lyrics, Mary. Yeah, I put the chicken in a but, Yeah, that's all I saw. It's got to be put the chicken in the butt. Yeah I put the chicken in, but I put the chicken in a but I think it could go viral for sure. I put the chicken in a, but.
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Murray Dueck
Nobody's going to just take that little sound clip and just.
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Joshua Hoffert
Lupus, send it to my wife. Yeah. So that's what you gotta incorporate. But and you know what. When there you go. See real big.
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Murray Dueck
because acting expanded inside of me. anyway, there it goes.
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Joshua Hoffert
Murray's got it is flowing with it. That's like we're going to have a rap battle here. One of these. Yeah.
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Murray Dueck
That's why we need to get ready to rumble.
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Joshua Hoffert
I put the chicken in a buttermilk marinade, but all I saw was I put a chicken in a. But I screenshotted it, by the way. So it did, because I had to remember that he's not lying.
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Murray Dueck
That.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So yes. That's right. So now if we can transition away from, the humor, this is why Georgia is a.
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Murray Dueck
Hospital, a healing things that are right. Oh, that's also in our episode today.
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Joshua Hoffert
Hey, Jesus said that we have to become like little children. Okay, so I, I think that's all out there to roll their eyes. Yeah, yeah. That's right, that's right. Well, my hypothesis is that I don't I can't speak on behalf of women because I'm not one. I can speak on behalf of men, and I, because I think I understand men to a fair degree is that, I, you know, I'm 43, Murray.
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Joshua Hoffert
You're what? You're. Are you 60 yet? You're 58, 58, 58. Right. I'm close.
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Murray Dueck
Okay. So I shouldn't be 58.
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Joshua Hoffert
I thought you were 58. I was going to guess so. So you're not 60 yet? You're 58. Yeah. I'll be fine. If you're 60, though. That's wrong. When you're 60, I'll be 45. Oh, not that big of a difference. I don't know. That sounds horrible. Well, you know, anyway, my hypothesis is that our sense of humor doesn't necessarily mature beyond the age of five.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's probably two. True. Yeah. Thanks. Two I just yeah, I laugh when you make the mistake of that. Maybe our experiences might might mean that we have more find more things funny. But, you know, like, I can't tell you like.
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Murray Dueck
Python. So, I mean, you're you're a cannibal, right?
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Joshua Hoffert
Like, Well, I'm. When I see my son, both of my sons, I'm going to show him the screenshot and say, look, mom, look what mom said to me. I put the chicken in the butt.
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Murray Dueck
Aaron will just roll her eyes, I can't wait.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, she will.
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Murray Dueck
Take a picture of her as you read.
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Joshua Hoffert
It. Yes, yes, that's a good idea. Okay, so Murray, this is where we've been talking for. I think this is our fifth or sixth episode talking through, the the bridal paradigm in, in Scripture and then in the contemplative literature. Right. We were looking at we were looking at the, the kind of the, the thread that starts all the way back, in Genesis one, two and three and carries on into revelation 21 and 22.
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Joshua Hoffert
Right. That that that's all started in bridal intimacy and ends in bridal intimacy.
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Murray Dueck
And mankind started in the garden. Jesus invites the thief into the garden, prayed in the garden, and then it ends.
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Joshua Hoffert
Right in the garden. That's right. With, the garden and the garden. Yeah, with the wedding ceremony. Exactly. And so it's it's we see that all of the we saw that in Scripture. Then we looked at how did the early church pick up that kind of language, and then how did that language mature? and we had looked at, Simeon and Bernard, Simeon the new theologian, Bernard of Clairvaux.
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Murray Dueck
Who I think Simeon is kind of like our God. I've decided that I'm going to adopt him as our patron saint or marry God if people like his. Yeah, if you'd like to be a mascot, but.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, well, I mean, I mean, this maybe this is like, this is probably super offensive, but isn't a patron saint basically just a mascot? So. Well, I like I see is hard evangelical.
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Murray Dueck
Yes.
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Joshua Hoffert
Let's just say that's right. Yeah, yeah. That's why I said it'd be super duper cheerleader. Anyone who heard that. Yeah, yeah.
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Murray Dueck
I did make a video once of an icon of Saint Simeon. dance like P Diddy, and I'm not sure if I'm going to get it was quite. It was very good.
00;13;16;27 - 00;13;48;19
Joshua Hoffert
Lightning. Lightning strike for Murray. Yeah. So. So we've been talking through that that the bridal paradigm as it matures in the mystical language and literature, looking at like some of the earlier church authors and how they talked about the, the the bridegroom and, the bridal language. And it's a bit it's a bit more not generic, but it's it's there.
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Joshua Hoffert
But then you get into like Simeon and you get into Bernard and they're describing the inner chamber.
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Murray Dueck
Jeremiah and Philip would be there too. Yeah.
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Joshua Hoffert
For sure. Yeah. And and so you'd see the church really pick up on this language over time, right? Yeah. For sure. So one of the what, what we wanted to do today and I'll, I'll kick it on over to you Marie. With this we want to do today everybody is look at how the bridal understanding this place of bridal intimacy, the language of the the bridal covenant, how that sets us up to understand the church as a place of healing.
00;14;27;06 - 00;14;39;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Rather than a judicial witness. of the sinfulness of the world, which, I, I think we we started.
00;14;39;14 - 00;14;40;28
Murray Dueck
Kind of last, you know.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we did with Peter.
00;14;42;25 - 00;14;47;11
Murray Dueck
And, when you turn back, strengthen the brethren. And we talked a little bit about.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's.
00;14;47;23 - 00;14;50;22
Murray Dueck
Right, that's right. We kind of got our toes in the water.
00;14;50;24 - 00;15;26;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah we did. And we're we you know, there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of language in how we talk about the church in the 21st century that is, that is, not legal. I don't mean legalistic in the sense that, you know, legal, like legalism. What I mean is, we are we are kind of metering out our meeting out what it means to live a holy life and then pointing out all the things that are wrong in the prevailing culture.
00;15;26;27 - 00;15;55;16
Joshua Hoffert
And so we we're we're essentially then sort of we think of ourselves as a judicial witness against what sinful action is, or the language is very much that we're in a cultural fight and we have to recapture, cultural Christianity, the righteousness of the of the bygone age because, there are evil forces trying to co-opt our culture in our countries and instituted a whole different way of thinking.
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Joshua Hoffert
Now, that may be true, that there are there's always evil forces trying to co-opt the message of the age. Jesus said this very clearly. and Paul picks it up when he talks about the spirit of the age. Yeah. Right. That you were you were influenced by the spirit age. You did with the Spirit age told you to do so.
00;16;10;25 - 00;16;36;01
Joshua Hoffert
We know that that's the case. But is the church to be a place of, metering out a judicial witness, or is the church to be the place of of, you know, telling everybody whether they're right or wrong or we're raising up warriors to fight against the culture. Those are the costs. A lot of the language that we we grew up hearing.
00;16;36;01 - 00;17;01;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right. And I even I even heard I saw a clip recently of a, apologist. He was and he said, you'll never find the apostles appealing to the love of God. And when they witness the gospel to people, they always are telling people how they always is. His point was that, the and this guy, this like, I don't remember the guy's name.
00;17;01;19 - 00;17;19;29
Joshua Hoffert
I just saw the clip. I've seen him before, but he was saying, you know, essentially we need to go tell the world how sinful they are. And that and he said, he said that the this is specifically what he said. When the apostles witness to the gospel in the book of acts, they command people to repent and tell them how sinful they are.
00;17;20;02 - 00;17;32;20
Joshua Hoffert
Now, thankfully, in the comments, there's a whole bunch of people who pointed out the example of Jesus talking all about how loving the father is. Yeah. Oh yeah. So and and then there's like, I mean, there's just it's just so wrong. Right? It's just so wrong.
00;17;32;22 - 00;17;33;11
Murray Dueck
I mean, but.
00;17;33;11 - 00;17;36;03
Joshua Hoffert
That's what he is. He is exactly.
00;17;36;11 - 00;17;43;29
Murray Dueck
The book of acts is mainly, them talking to the Jews, telling them, you know, the ones who crucified Jesus. Those very same.
00;17;43;29 - 00;17;44;24
Joshua Hoffert
Ones. That's right.
00;17;44;27 - 00;17;48;19
Murray Dueck
That. Hey, you guys got to repent for. You know what you did? You know.
00;17;48;19 - 00;17;50;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I so, I mean.
00;17;50;19 - 00;17;55;12
Murray Dueck
Context there to say that's all they did without that context is really. That's poor.
00;17;55;20 - 00;18;01;25
Joshua Hoffert
it's true, it's true. It's just it's poor exegesis. Anyway. Jesus, I'm not trying to comment anyway.
00;18;01;25 - 00;18;02;06
Murray Dueck
Sorry.
00;18;02;06 - 00;18;30;04
Joshua Hoffert
I'm like, what? This guy's there. He. I know, and both of us could probably go a long time talking about that. My point is, the idea of what the church is as a witness in our age is, is typically not the, the, the, the church as a place of healing. It's the church as a place of warfare.
00;18;30;07 - 00;18;51;21
Joshua Hoffert
The church is a place of judicial witness. the church is the moral arbiter of the age. And, and so what we wanted to talk about is how when we look at the bridal paradigm, bridal intimacy, what we see being set up, especially as it flows from the contemplative literature, is the church is a place of healing.
00;18;51;24 - 00;19;04;28
Joshua Hoffert
And, and more specifically, the church is a hospital, which we'll get into. So, Murray, that that one last thing I saw a clip from, Mark Driscoll, just popped up. You know.
00;19;05;01 - 00;19;06;25
Murray Dueck
Here's the name I haven't heard for a while.
00;19;06;28 - 00;19;30;11
Joshua Hoffert
It in. Well, he makes the rounds. I guess he went kind of viral for all the wrong reasons recently. oh. but but it just showed up. The clip just kind of. I think it popped up on Instagram or something. And he was talking about how, the, the church is too feminized because all the men went to war and World War two, and the church adapted and designed itself for women, and the church no longer appeals to men.
00;19;30;13 - 00;19;36;28
Joshua Hoffert
And that and and I'm just like the these kind of concepts are so baked into culture today.
00;19;37;00 - 00;19;38;21
Murray Dueck
He's going to.
00;19;38;23 - 00;19;40;12
Joshua Hoffert
Iowa, his own church.
00;19;40;12 - 00;19;42;09
Murray Dueck
So the church of Dusty Road.
00;19;42;09 - 00;19;51;11
Joshua Hoffert
So like so I'm just saying that there's a lot of thoughts people have about what the church. Yeah, is supposed to be. Right.
00;19;51;13 - 00;20;12;24
Murray Dueck
I remember back in the day, I mean, just just to kind of mess with that, but for the same, same reason. What is the church, you know, and I remember when, Braveheart came out that that really grabbed hold of the men in the church, and we had a night where everybody dressed as Scottish warriors. We got together and everyone night at each other and painted their faces blue, you know, and it's like, right?
00;20;12;25 - 00;20;21;12
Murray Dueck
And it's cool, you know, it was cool. It it was fun. And it was like, okay, what does it mean to be a man in the church? So it's a good it's a, it's a good argument, but it kind of misses the point.
00;20;21;14 - 00;20;22;03
Joshua Hoffert
It does.
00;20;24;04 - 00;20;27;13
Murray Dueck
and let me just can I, you know, go ahead and finish it in case I cut you off.
00;20;27;14 - 00;20;31;26
Joshua Hoffert
No, no, no. That's it. Yeah. No. That's it. I was just making some observations and then setting us up.
00;20;31;26 - 00;20;51;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And so I'm going to sometimes it's easier to ask for, forgiveness than it is permission. So I'm going to share a couple of things that that are not about me, about other people that that are true stories, but their names will be left unsaid. And, and, and because one of them really likes our show, and I hope you keep watching, but I'm sure he'd like to be on it.
00;20;51;29 - 00;21;26;00
Murray Dueck
So now so everyone just think of it like this. Because this is going to push your buttons and it should it should push your buttons. It should push my buttons. So. Because again when you think judicially it's judicial. I, I got to get it right. What's the right decision? Right. We we kind of think that way. So and so you know, I do a lot of one on one spiritual direction stuff and, and you know, we kind of all bump into this and and so but so you can think about it.
00;21;26;00 - 00;21;43;18
Murray Dueck
What's the right to to what God what's your will for my life. Right. What am I supposed to do. Right. But if you go to what am I supposed to do if what if you can't do it? What if you don't do it? Well, then you're under judgment. What if it's not about that? What? It's about what you become, how you become like him?
00;21;43;18 - 00;22;04;11
Murray Dueck
Get shaped, get formed. Right? What if. What if that's the Lord's thinking? Because again, he's thinking about getting a bright, spotless in pure. So he's thinking life circumstance make us change and become like him. We with unveiled faces who behold his glory. And we're transformed right? So? So here's a I'll give you two examples just to kind of what I would say to somebody.
00;22;04;23 - 00;22;33;07
Murray Dueck
so one person I think this is pretty, pretty typical been in with her husband. He's very conservative, been in this very conservative church for 30 years and has come to the conclusion that she's dying. And we would go, oh, that, you know, because she's a prophetic person, you know, she can hear and see and sense and feel and, and, really in the this traumatic moment of, should I change churches?
00;22;33;07 - 00;22;55;05
Murray Dueck
Should I go to this other group? Right. the group she's in that's very conservative is quite extreme conservative. Like, if you're not serving, if you're not doing stuff, you're not a part of us. Right? So identity really comes from, from the doing. So kind of judicial. So and she goes I just can't make a decision, you know, working very deeply.
00;22;55;08 - 00;23;20;01
Murray Dueck
I just can't make the decision. Should I stay should I go what's the right this decision? and my response to her was, what if it's not about the right decision? What if it's about this situation pushing up in your heart the fear of not being involved and the fear of making a wrong decision? And the reason the Lord's letting this go on and on, is that he needs you to face that fear in your heart.
00;23;20;03 - 00;23;41;01
Murray Dueck
This isn't about the decision. It's about what's coming up in the heart that under pressure needs to be looked at like, right, the decision either way, you know, as Saint Augustine said, love God and do what you want, right? Or you know, Samuel said to Saul, if you want a biblical version, do whatever your hands fine to do when God will be with you.
00;23;41;04 - 00;24;02;05
Murray Dueck
It's is it about the decision or about, okay, what's wrong in here that needs to be fixed? Right. So. Right, I'll, I'll give you one more, if you don't mind. So great guy. Becoming a good friend. He, And I think this happens to a lot of people, so I don't think he'll be a set, but I think a lot of people struggle with this.
00;24;02;05 - 00;24;19;22
Murray Dueck
And again, my response, he's like, you know, to get through the week, get through a month, one week of the month, I need to put stuff in the credit card. I pay it off. We're not going into debt, but to get through, I need to do that. I just that's what I have to do. And he goes, but that's not faith.
00;24;19;22 - 00;24;38;03
Murray Dueck
I shouldn't be doing it. I don't have faith. Right? Because if I had faith, I wouldn't do it. And not only that, I put on the credit card. I wanted to go to this conference, this Christian conference to serve and minister at. And I you know, I just put that on there too. And and now I'm like, I feel so guilty.
00;24;38;03 - 00;24;59;19
Murray Dueck
I should not have done that. And I'm like, so here's my response to him. I said, you know, and some of you are going to really disagree with me because it depends what you think of credit cards, right? Because he's being faithful. He's paying it off. He's not. You know what I mean? He's working it through and and and I said, so, do you have a mortgage?
00;24;59;21 - 00;25;19;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Do you pay it off? Are you faithful? That's a that's a debt too, isn't it? Right. So you feel guilty about the one and not the other. Just I want you to think about that. And so and he goes, why isn't God fixing this? Why doesn't he just provide my needs? I said, well, maybe it's not about him fixing it.
00;25;19;14 - 00;25;28;12
Murray Dueck
Maybe it's about looking at the guilt you're having and what's coming up under this situation. Because if this situation stops you, do you have any guilt anymore? No.
00;25;28;13 - 00;25;29;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;25;29;04 - 00;25;51;26
Murray Dueck
Well, maybe you need this situation a little bit longer so you can see what's happening in your heart so you can get some healing. And the Lord is going to intervene. But first, he wants to heal your soul of all this guilt that you got to do it right, and you got a plan, right? You got to get this going on that you can see the father in it, not just whether you're making the right or wrong decision based on your inner.
00;25;51;26 - 00;25;53;05
Murray Dueck
You're out.
00;25;53;07 - 00;25;54;02
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
00;25;54;04 - 00;26;09;09
Murray Dueck
And so, see, one is a very judicial mindset where we all go to first, including me. And the other one is how does this situation make me more like Christ as it exposes the things in my heart that need to come into the light, that I may become like him.
00;26;09;11 - 00;26;10;05
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
00;26;10;07 - 00;26;34;04
Murray Dueck
Very different ways of of working and thinking things through, right? Yeah. And again. Yeah, yeah. Prophetic person and again, God's a general. I gotta do what I'm told. Or God's a father who's walking with me as my life companion. It affects how you prophesy, how you see, how you hear. And, and, again, you know, the church was like, we got to get this interior life fixed first, right?
00;26;34;10 - 00;27;05;10
Murray Dueck
So this is the port of Saint Simeon, who again, is our mascot as of today. so I'm just quoting out of a book called Awesome Orthodox Psychotherapy, but he's quoting Simeon from Ethical Discourses, probably. So, you know, he's around 1080, maybe just a tad later. let's see here. I think, a minister, you know, he says to be an Orthodox therapist, but I'm just going to say minister and cure the spiritual ills of his spiritual children.
00;27;05;13 - 00;27;47;29
Murray Dueck
He himself must previously have been healed as far as possible. He must stand between praxis and theory. So practice the right doing and theory the right belief. Right. summation. How can one heal without having previously been healed or without having taste at the beginning of healing? Think about the two stories I've just shared. Therefore, see, Simeon accuses those who regard themselves as spiritual, but before having received the Holy Spirit, rashly hearing others confessions and daring to rule monasteries or occupy other positions of authority, see lead, be visionary leaders, leading big ministries, or, pushing themselves forward shamelessly by thousand intrigues to be metropolitans or bishops, to guide the Lord's people before they have seen
00;27;47;29 - 00;28;17;03
Murray Dueck
the bridegroom in the bridal chamber and become sons of light and sons of the day. Saint Gregory the Theologian writes, just to add one little thought, it is necessary first to be purified, then to purify, to be made wise and to make wise, to become light, and then to enlighten, to approach God, to to bring others to him, to be sanctified, then to sanctify, as Saint Seraphim would say of Seraph, work on yourself, and thousands will be saved.
00;28;17;05 - 00;28;18;03
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
00;28;18;05 - 00;28;40;28
Murray Dueck
So there's my my opening shot of the bridal paragraph paradigm is seen as necessary for healing of the heart. Because without that paradigm, we see God as master. We see him as general. We see him as. And then when you see somebody is general, you see as following the orders. And when you get into that mentality, how do you know you have intimacy?
00;28;40;28 - 00;28;43;04
Murray Dueck
Well, I did what I was told.
00;28;43;07 - 00;28;43;29
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
00;28;44;01 - 00;29;09;10
Murray Dueck
And once you get there, you start to use that yardstick. And other people, well, they're not doing it right. Look at them. They are, you know, and and basically all that stuff. We start judging other people. We're going back to a very judicial, very, you know, Army paradigm. And, you know, I'll just read one other quote here, too, about the heart back to ABBA.
00;29;09;10 - 00;29;15;04
Murray Dueck
Isaiah. Right. So this is how the early church would think about this. So this is what, 400 A.D. Josh ish.
00;29;15;04 - 00;29;19;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Somewhere in there. Isaiah's. Isaiah's fifth century. Yeah. From what I remember.
00;29;19;09 - 00;29;41;28
Murray Dueck
And so I'll just throw this in now if that, if that works, you know, how should we how should we be viewing ourselves, you know, as a Christian? And he would say this in this present so above Isaiah, in this present life, it as if we are all waiting in the doctor's office, one person suffering from a disease of the eyes, another pain in the hand, another an abscess, or whatever illness there may be.
00;29;42;00 - 00;30;02;14
Murray Dueck
Where, however, if a number of people in the waiting room each with a different ailment and one cries out from his own sufferings, is someone else going to ask him what? Why? Why, he cried out, is not each person concerned with his own malady? Thus, if I had the pain of my own before me, I would not be able to see anyone else sinning.
00;30;02;16 - 00;30;25;07
Murray Dueck
Each person in the waiting room is keeping watch on himself in accordance with the doctor's instructions. So, I mean, that's how there's thinking becoming like a bride. There is this inner transformation that that's life long, you know, and we see that with Paul II, the most eminent of apostles. And in the end, I'm chief of sinners, right? Because because of the grace of God.
00;30;25;07 - 00;30;28;27
Murray Dueck
So I'll just stop right there for now. And kick the.
00;30;28;27 - 00;31;04;07
Joshua Hoffert
Ball. Yeah. Well, that that I'm, I'm just I it just makes me, reflect on some of the, some of the ways when we're talking about the, like, okay, I just have so many thoughts. Let me try and distill them. Oh. That's good. So more episodes? Yeah. Anthony the Great, when he talked, when he gave instructions to his disciples, he was asked one time, what the question that was very typical.
00;31;04;07 - 00;31;26;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right. What must I do to to be saved or what must I do to please God? You know, these kind of questions were very typical in the in the desert tradition. So one of the preserved sayings of Anthony, he's asked at one point, what must I do to please God? and it's and he says, keep these three things in mind.
00;31;26;29 - 00;31;50;13
Joshua Hoffert
And whatever you do, always keep God before your eyes and whatever you do. do it. According to the, the testimony, the Holy Scriptures. Right. So whatever you do, always keep God before your eyes, whatever you do. or actually, he know he says, whoever you may be, always have God before you. Right? So it's whoever you may be, you always have God before your eyes.
00;31;50;13 - 00;32;00;04
Joshua Hoffert
Whatever you do, always have the testimony of Scripture before you. In the last one, he says, whatever place you find yourself in, do not easily leave it. okay. Yeah, I'll.
00;32;00;04 - 00;32;02;02
Murray Dueck
Explain that last one because it's pretty, pretty intense.
00;32;02;07 - 00;32;28;07
Joshua Hoffert
That's the one. The last one is the important one that's pertinent to our discussion today. The other ones are pertinent, but this is what's pertinent to our discussion today. And this is where the intersection between the bridal intimacy and the he the church is a healing place. It is seen right there in that statement by Anthony is and whatever place you leave do not easily do every place you find yourself do not easily leave it.
00;32;28;10 - 00;32;54;06
Joshua Hoffert
So let me let a later dessert. Father, explain what Anthony meant, okay? Just just not because he elaborated on Anthony's statement, but because you'll see the context for how they were thinking about the, the, the place that they lived in. So the people you were surrounded with, whatever, whatever place you're in, whatever community you're in, don't easily leave it.
00;32;54;08 - 00;33;19;27
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. So so this is Cassian. Cassian comes about 100 years after Anthony. Cassian represents the teaching in a in that kind of codified itself in the second way of the Desert Fathers movement. Okay, maybe this maybe kind of tail end of the second wave into the third wave. So we're talking, mal second wave. We're talking end of the fourth century.
00;33;19;29 - 00;33;51;24
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. so Cassian wrote the so Cassian wrote a series of conferences which were conversations with, monastic figures in the Egyptian desert at that time. So he was talking about solitude and retreat into the deeper desert, the the lifestyle of a hermit. And he says this, whatever uncured passions you take into the desert with you will only conceal themselves in solitude.
00;33;51;27 - 00;34;16;03
Joshua Hoffert
This is because solitude, for those who have not yet been delivered from the passions, not only keeps the faults unrevealed, but also knows how to conceal them, so that those who have those passions do not perceive that they have them, and as a result, do not recognize what passions they they are overcome by. Okay, so what Cassian is saying is it's dangerous to go it alone.
00;34;16;06 - 00;34;36;00
Joshua Hoffert
The reason it's dangerous to go it alone is because you'll never see your faults. if you don't spend time in the place you find yourself in, with the people you find yourself around, it's impossible to learn to love them. And it's impossible to learn what controls you. So learn.
00;34;36;00 - 00;34;37;10
Murray Dueck
Sharpens iron, and so does.
00;34;37;10 - 00;35;04;25
Joshua Hoffert
One. Exactly as it says, as the water reflects the face. So the heart of man to man. It's another. yes. Nice. Right. So same, same idea. Is that actually in the community I find myself in, healing is metered out in one sense because of love. Like, yes, I am loved, I'm cherished, I'm accepted. But in another sense, there's another layer to that.
00;35;04;27 - 00;35;29;19
Joshua Hoffert
I see my inability to love and how other people actually either drive me crazy, they hurt me. I get angry with them, I get annoyed with them. I get frustrated with them. Like, just think of your typical experience on a Sunday morning. I'm going to church. How you may have argued with your spouse on the way there. You got angry with your kids on the way.
00;35;29;19 - 00;35;47;17
Joshua Hoffert
They're trying to get out the door on time. You put on the fake smile when you get there and you're trying to convince everybody it's okay, but inside you're seething still and someone asks how you're doing. You lie to them. You know I do everything. I to think, yeah, everything's great. I needed them to think I'm okay, right?
00;35;47;17 - 00;36;09;25
Joshua Hoffert
If if we're lucky, there's a moment where you finally break down and turn your heart to God if you're lucky. But we spend so much time confronted with our own inability to love. When we gather with people, and then we think it's all their fault because, well, that person angered me. That person angered me. That person cut me off.
00;36;09;25 - 00;36;19;18
Joshua Hoffert
They didn't greet me enough at the door. Yeah. You know, I, you know, whatever, right? There's all kinds of things, right? The coffee wasn't warm enough. They didn't have donuts. After the service, the pastor didn't say something.
00;36;19;25 - 00;36;23;08
Murray Dueck
Nice guy cut me. Presence of God in worship. He just killed it.
00;36;23;08 - 00;36;44;02
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, it's any it's any number of things, right? It's any number of things that all of them provide an external reason for distancing yourself. But in the in the context of the bridal intimacy and the church is a place of healing, all of those actually expose the heart. Yeah. And this is what's what we have happening here. no, that's what we have happening.
00;36;44;02 - 00;36;44;20
Joshua Hoffert
Absolutely.
00;36;44;20 - 00;37;03;06
Murray Dueck
And I just wanted to add to that, everyone, this is because we have a bad we have a wrong view of it. This is why the church has always believed in confession, going to the priest and confessing why it's not to get punished, not to deal with your evil. It's like, father, look at this stuff in my heart.
00;37;03;08 - 00;37;03;25
Murray Dueck
It's coming.
00;37;03;26 - 00;37;04;09
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
00;37;04;10 - 00;37;31;26
Murray Dueck
What can I do about it? How can I change? And so do you actually have a therapist trying to help you work on your inner life as you're aware of it? Because if you don't have that relationship, you're just pushing through and overcoming and need the breaker anointing and need a destiny word. And and it's not that those things are bad, but if it's all you got and you're and it's I mean, that can all really turn into striving very easily, right?
00;37;31;29 - 00;37;53;18
Murray Dueck
That's right. My identity is based on. But if there's no working on the inner man, and because we've begun to believe that confession is about judgment, well, I'm going to go to the priest. He's going to judge me, you know, he's going to instead of like, no, we need to look inside. What's really going on and then bring it into light and, and get some help.
00;37;53;18 - 00;37;55;29
Murray Dueck
How to get better.
00;37;56;01 - 00;37;56;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right? That's right.
00;37;56;28 - 00;38;01;11
Murray Dueck
That is becoming like Christ. And that's early Christianity right there.
00;38;01;12 - 00;38;23;09
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right. And actually, Cassian, in in that sense also talks about the I'm pretty sure it's Cassian. I don't have the quote right in front of me, talks about the context for spiritual gifts is that you are created to be a gift. You're given a gift so that others can experience the grace that's given to your life.
00;38;23;12 - 00;38;45;17
Joshua Hoffert
And so so there's another layer of community that when I experience the grace of God through someone else, healing is also meted out to me. So I so I actually can't be reconstituted if I don't surround myself with people that either hurt me, anger me, annoy me, frustrate me. But also love me unconditionally, like I would love them unconditionally.
00;38;45;28 - 00;39;03;03
Joshua Hoffert
and and this is what we're learning to do as a community is to love unconditionally. Because as human beings, we're very bad at that. So in whatever place you leave it, do not. You're never place you are do not easily leave it. The reason you would leave it is because you and all those people are the problem.
00;39;03;06 - 00;39;26;25
Joshua Hoffert
And actually, no, you're the problem. Yeah, right. You're the problem. And so what? The Desert Fathers and then, the, the, the other and like the Desert Fathers, you know, that's a a in the, in the relative history of Christianity, a short time frame and other contemplative authors like I'm thinking of Walter Hilton in the 12th century.
00;39;26;25 - 00;39;52;18
Joshua Hoffert
He says to be truly humble, indeed, you must considered the venial sins in yourself as greater than the great sins and others. Right? So this is a way of navigating the inner life that when I'm with other people, part of my intimate belonging with God is having my heart issues exposed in order to be healed. And we see this throughout the contemplative literature.
00;39;52;20 - 00;40;18;05
Joshua Hoffert
So bridal intimacy is my heart's exposed now, and I'm learning to love. I'm learning a whole new way of being because I don't know how to love. And in fact, there's a there's a quote from I'm, I'm pretty sure this is, Mark the ascetic, another desert father, where he's asked, by a disciple, what's the responsibility that derives from love?
00;40;18;07 - 00;40;39;02
Joshua Hoffert
Okay, that's what he's asked. What's the the responsibility that derives from love? And he says this is what Mark says. the assumption of responsibility, what we assume in our responsibility that derives from love is that which our Lord Jesus Christ bequeathed to us first by healing the informatie infirmities of our souls, and then by curing every disease and every sickness that's in us.
00;40;39;02 - 00;41;03;15
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Taking away the sin of the world, purifying human nature, killing it, granting deliverance from death to those who firmly believing in him, instructing us in right belief, teaching us piety and suffering unto death for the sake of love. Okay, so, this is our assumption of responsibility when it come, when it comes to love. One that Jesus heals us, right?
00;41;03;18 - 00;41;43;18
Joshua Hoffert
Two, that we become willing, like him to suffer on behalf of the world. Right? This is the paradigm for the church from the get go. Right? Not a moral arbiter of truth, not a, a policeman on, what constitutes a moral and good life, not a judicial witness to the sinfulness of the world, right? Not a militant army conquering the world, but a place of love where you learn a whole new way of being, where you're healed because you see what controls and dominates you, and you're not allowed to go into solitude and where you learn to lay yourself down for others.
00;41;43;21 - 00;42;09;09
Joshua Hoffert
This is what the contemplative authors look at as the result of bridle intimacy, right? Jesus and His love heals us so that we would suffer on behalf of others. We lay our lives down for others. This is this is Christianity 101, right? This is church 101. And until we get that, we're going to make all kinds of assumptions about what a church is, right?
00;42;09;09 - 00;42;35;25
Joshua Hoffert
Well, a church is a composite of ministry programs to help the person mature in their family expression, or to teach kids godly principles or, to offer worshipful praise to God. No, no no no. The church, the place of healing, and the the process of bridal intimacy is to bring one into a place of healing where you're say, I think this.
00;42;35;25 - 00;42;50;14
Joshua Hoffert
Okay, Marie, just, just a I think the purpose of the spiritual life, the pursuit of spiritual maturity, is to eradicate the, the subconscious, that is, the thrust of.
00;42;50;19 - 00;42;54;26
Murray Dueck
The conscious and the subconscious become one and in agreement.
00;42;54;29 - 00;43;06;20
Joshua Hoffert
Become one. Christ. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So that I'm actually aware of what moves me. I'm actually aware of what motivates me. Yeah, I'm aware.
00;43;06;24 - 00;43;24;27
Murray Dueck
That's really good. I mean, I mean, I mean, everyone, if you think about Simeon, the old guy in the temple praying over baby Jesus and Mary Joseph, he says this child will cause the rising and falling of many. So the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed, right? That would be subconscious there, you know, under pressure.
00;43;24;27 - 00;43;25;25
Joshua Hoffert
What exactly.
00;43;25;25 - 00;43;29;06
Murray Dueck
That's that's that. So yes. Yeah. That makes total sense.
00;43;29;06 - 00;43;40;08
Joshua Hoffert
Well that's Moses right. That's Mel. We've coded this a number of times. Was Moses the Ethiopian when he's turned away for the color of his skin? Oh, we should call that like right. Yeah. Go ahead and quote that one because that's.
00;43;40;09 - 00;43;41;09
Murray Dueck
Such a good.
00;43;41;12 - 00;43;52;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Well it's exactly what we're talking about. Bubbling up from under the surface is anger at the rejection of the people. And he recognizes, oh, actually I'm the problem here. Right.
00;43;52;23 - 00;44;06;22
Murray Dueck
So, you know, there's a story. I gotta throw it in here because I keep thinking about it kind of a it's a joke. I don't know, it's a sermon illustration. There's this old guy, he and he and he's got some for some reason, he's got some blue cheese on the end of his nose. He wakes up, I don't know how he did it.
00;44;06;22 - 00;44;18;16
Murray Dueck
And he goes, oh, man, it stinks in here. And he goes and opens and his window and goes, man, it stinks out here. And he opens his for a door and goes, oh, it stinks out here, dude. Why does everything stink? But me?
00;44;19;12 - 00;44;30;16
Joshua Hoffert
yeah. Exactly. Yes, that that's pretty accurate. if the if the Desert Fathers had, they would like Jesus, they probably would have used that. Yeah. So,
00;44;30;18 - 00;44;47;24
Murray Dueck
Here, here is Father Moses right here. And again, you know, I Josh gave a bit of context. He's a black guy. I got kicked out of this, Synod or whatever he was doing because he was black and, and he had quite a quite a famous saint. Everyone. and here's what he says. Why, my wretched soul.
00;44;47;24 - 00;45;12;19
Murray Dueck
Are you acting crazy? Why have you become angry like one of those who foam at the mouth with precisely this anger? You show that you were ill, for if you were not ill, you would not have felt pain. Why hapless soul have you forsaken? Self-Reproach for the condemnation of your brother, since it was he who revealed your illness which was hidden within you, and to which you were ignorant until now.
00;45;12;22 - 00;45;23;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, the subconscious being pushed to the conscious level. I recognize actually my anger at rejection is the state of my soul that's sick and needs to be healed. Yeah.
00;45;23;04 - 00;45;39;25
Murray Dueck
So for his point of view, this guy did him a favor because, because, because he we think sin or stuff that happens to us again is external. That guy cuts me off in traffic, I get mad it's his fault. But again, you got to remember in Matthew 16, Jesus, it's not the things you eat that make you, you know, that are evil.
00;45;39;25 - 00;45;55;21
Murray Dueck
It's the things that come out of the heart. You know, lust, anger, gossip. So the point of view is, is that, you know, Hezekiah's of Jerusalem is really big on this. Just because the a cause of the anger goes away, does it mean that you're healed? Whence it causes.
00;45;55;26 - 00;45;56;27
Joshua Hoffert
The solitude as.
00;45;56;28 - 00;46;16;07
Murray Dueck
What comes, what comes out right. Because under pressure, what comes out is what's in there. As Joshua saying, the subconscious that needs to be healed and the Lord's, you know, the way I see it is, if something's pushing your buttons, you got a button to push, and God wants that button. You know, he. That's right. Like I need to make you into my bride.
00;46;16;07 - 00;46;36;24
Murray Dueck
Spotless. Impure. Right? Ephesians. Let's see what's in there and let's get this sucker healed up. Blessed are they pure at heart, for they shall see God, right? And so they're seeing things that push up stuff as, oh, thank you so much, Lord. I, I want to see this and get it healed. Right. That's right. That's why they like going to confession.
00;46;36;28 - 00;46;40;21
Murray Dueck
Oh my goodness. I've got something to you know, very different.
00;46;40;21 - 00;47;04;08
Joshua Hoffert
About something that I to bring to bring to healing the I think Moses goes on to say rather rather consider this brother, the physician that God has sent to heal your soul. I'm pretty sure that's what I'm saying, that. Yeah, that this the person who provided the anger or the outburst. Right. The reason for the outburst is actually the physician sent by God to heal your soul.
00;47;04;08 - 00;47;29;07
Joshua Hoffert
Wow, wow, what a thought. And like, oh, yes. Oh, you things. Oh, it's so is it's so is. Don't don't be quick to leave because God might just be teaching you to love by offending you and by by putting you in front of people that don't actually know how to love, so that you can learn what's in yourself so that you can be a source of love for them, and in turn, lay your life down so that they see what love really looks like, right?
00;47;29;08 - 00;47;37;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So this is the this is the and this is almost the entire context for community living in the early church is, is, it's.
00;47;37;24 - 00;47;39;18
Murray Dueck
A, it's a hospital paradigm of.
00;47;39;18 - 00;47;49;20
Joshua Hoffert
Healing, a place of exactly. And not a hospital paradigm. The here hospital paradigm isn't, again, it's not a hospital. Well, we just the church. Yeah.
00;47;49;23 - 00;47;51;07
Murray Dueck
What I meant to say is filling it out.
00;47;51;10 - 00;48;15;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. It's not to say that the church is a hospital, because everybody's so loving and accepting is precisely the opposite, actually. Right is the church is a hospital because you see all your faults there. You're under the microscope, right? You're being you're having surgery and you're learning a whole new way of being. And it's and it's painful and it's hurtful where especially when God is supposed to be healing.
00;48;15;14 - 00;48;18;12
Murray Dueck
Changing and bringing his his presence.
00;48;18;14 - 00;48;19;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.
00;48;19;27 - 00;48;28;15
Murray Dueck
You know what? It'd be interesting then, because I know I mean from my past experience too. So hopefully I'm a little bit more healed up. Maybe not. We'll find out.
00;48;28;17 - 00;48;28;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;48;28;23 - 00;48;31;04
Murray Dueck
Hopefully you come home from church. You know, it's so easy to go.
00;48;31;11 - 00;48;31;24
Joshua Hoffert
00;48;31;24 - 00;48;36;08
Murray Dueck
Worship sucked today or that sermon was off the mark. instead it was.
00;48;36;08 - 00;48;37;15
Joshua Hoffert
Like, oh, yeah, part.
00;48;37;15 - 00;48;52;19
Murray Dueck
Of me is judging that worship. What were my expectations? Oh, why did I have them? And why am I taking it out on them? What's going on with me? You know, I mean, that would be the proper perspective.
00;48;52;22 - 00;48;59;27
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right. What? Why don't we. We're not shifting gears, but taking a little further. You've got some thoughts on Luke ten that. Yeah.
00;48;59;27 - 00;49;01;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Everyone just just.
00;49;01;02 - 00;49;03;14
Joshua Hoffert
Think that might be a good place to dive into that for a.
00;49;03;14 - 00;49;13;08
Murray Dueck
Little bit. so, Luke ten, everyone is Jesus sending out the 70. And then the next is story, the Good Samaritan in and that ends with Mary and Martha.
00;49;13;11 - 00;49;21;00
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. So you got to always pay attention, right, to the flow of the context of the passages. Right? There's there's aren't just kind of randomly assembled.
00;49;21;00 - 00;49;41;18
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And the reason this is going to fit church is a hospital theme. And again, it's going to show up where we go judicial. I want just to compare these two things, especially the interpretation of the Good Samaritan. Because because a lot of us, I think when we read that, at least I have in my midnight upbringing, I should be like the Good Samaritan.
00;49;41;23 - 00;49;51;06
Murray Dueck
But I see a poor guy on the street. I go past him. Oh jeez, I'm boy, I'm the Pharisee. I'm the I, you know, I'm acting like this like the Levite, you know, what am I.
00;49;51;06 - 00;49;52;18
Joshua Hoffert
Do that feel very.
00;49;52;18 - 00;49;58;27
Murray Dueck
Bad? I could just motivate myself by guilt. Come on. And again, that's just guilt.
00;49;58;27 - 00;50;01;07
Joshua Hoffert
Motivation usually doesn't last for no.
00;50;01;09 - 00;50;19;09
Murray Dueck
As you all know, it doesn't work. And then we're wonder why. Yeah, so. But again, maybe there's a different way to read that parable. That would be more in line with the theology theology we're talking about. So again, maybe one thing to say about about a chapter in the Gospels when Jesus tells parables, they all say the same thing.
00;50;19;09 - 00;50;39;10
Murray Dueck
Everything in a chapter will be like, you know, Matthew 13, Matthew 15, the kingdom of heaven is like a sewer of the sea. The kingdom of heaven is like, net let down. You know. You know, you put them all together. It's saying the same thing. Well, you know, again, we're looking at Luke ten and it's good to everybody get some biblical, you know, backing here.
00;50;39;10 - 00;50;41;18
Murray Dueck
We want, you know, scriptures God breeds. Right. So.
00;50;41;18 - 00;50;42;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right.
00;50;43;00 - 00;51;04;08
Murray Dueck
So, you know, the the easy one to see. Jesus's point is Mary and Martha and we all know the story. You know, the disciples, everybody's come over to Martha and Mary's house. she's got to get ready. And there's Mary just sitting at Jesus feet, staring at him, big smile on her face. And Martha goes, Jesus, don't you care that my sister has left me to do all this on my own?
00;51;04;10 - 00;51;22;22
Murray Dueck
Command her to help me and and Jesus goes, Martha, Martha, you're worried and troubled about so many things. But Mary has chosen what is best. It will not be taken from her. So, you know, Martha doesn't get in trouble for doing. She gets in trouble for worrying and then tries to manipulate. Manipulate? Jesus, don't you care? My sister has left me.
00;51;22;22 - 00;51;48;09
Murray Dueck
She's sitting right there. I mean, total straight manipulation, right? But. But the point is, Martha, it's not about the doing. It's about being with me. So. But do we see that in the rest of the chapter? Right. If that's the point doing versus being, or in this case, worrying as a motivation for doing so? Well, the first part of this chapter, and I'm going to go over this quick because I think we've done this before.
00;51;48;12 - 00;52;07;10
Murray Dueck
So I'll I'll do it quick, everyone. But Jesus sends out the 70 and he says, heal the sick, preach the gospel, cast out demons. Right. And they come back the 70 and go, master, even the demons submit to us. And Jesus goes, don't rejoice at demons. Submit to rejoice. Your names are written in the book, right? And then he turns to the father right in front of them.
00;52;07;10 - 00;52;14;26
Murray Dueck
Father, thank you that you haven't revealed these to the wise and learned it, but you've revealed them to the little children. And then he looks at the disciples.
00;52;14;29 - 00;52;16;26
Joshua Hoffert
Nobody knows the father.
00;52;17;02 - 00;52;19;08
Murray Dueck
Except whom the son reveals, right?
00;52;19;11 - 00;52;28;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Thank you that you haven't revealed it to the smart ones. But the dumb ones. Yeah, that's. He says that, right? Right in their face. These dumb guys over here. So. Yeah.
00;52;28;09 - 00;52;30;02
Murray Dueck
But but the point is like.
00;52;30;04 - 00;52;37;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, wait a second, I'm offended. Yeah. They probably just revealed your heart. I think you're right, pal. So,
00;52;37;07 - 00;52;52;08
Murray Dueck
But but think about that, you know, why should we rejoice? Her name is written in some dusty book. You mean, is it? Are we going to line up at the gate and Saint Peter's going to go? Marie, do it! Marie! Duck! Marie! I can't find it. Right. Oh, no. It's doing, it's doing okay. There it is. You're in.
00;52;52;08 - 00;53;15;17
Murray Dueck
No, that's not that book. And matter of fact written name and know those words Jesus said only occur in one other place in Scripture. And that is Exodus 32 and 33. the children of Israel worship golden calf. Moses comes down, throws down the tablets. He says to God, strike me out of the book you've written up for the behalf of Israel.
00;53;15;17 - 00;53;35;26
Murray Dueck
And God says, get moving. And then he meets him in the tent of meeting. And God says, I'm not going with those people. And but I'll go with you, Moses. And Moses says, if you don't go with us, right, how is the world going to know? And God says, because I know you by name. So there are those words written name.
00;53;35;26 - 00;53;57;10
Murray Dueck
No. And it's the only other place in Scripture those words occur. Remember, Moses had is 70. Jesus has just sent out his 70. There's a real parallel here, and this book is the book in, Psalm 139, all your days are written before one of them came to be. This book is your life. You're known every moment, every thought.
00;53;57;13 - 00;54;17;20
Murray Dueck
You know, I remember I was journaling in my journal and I bought a dream. And the Lord said to me, I love it when you journal. You know, I have a book I journal about you. And someday we're going to compare my book and your book and they're going to match. Yeah, that's the book. Right. So basically the point is Jesus is saying, don't rejoice in what you do.
00;54;17;20 - 00;54;21;23
Murray Dueck
Rejoice that you are known that word. There's Adam to eat. Yeah, right.
00;54;22;00 - 00;54;38;16
Joshua Hoffert
And this is my dinner, by the way. The well, the Psalms, David says it a number of times that in your book all my days are written. Yeah, right. Like like the scriptures say clearly that God writes about us. So, yeah, whether that's a metaphor or not, we know that on some level he's keeping a record of our lives.
00;54;38;16 - 00;54;39;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah. But again.
00;54;39;17 - 00;54;45;23
Joshua Hoffert
I just wanted to say like is not, well, we're just, you know, making stuff up because we've talked to God. No, no, no.
00;54;45;25 - 00;54;48;17
Murray Dueck
No, that's in the Bible everybody. Yeah.
00;54;48;20 - 00;54;50;14
Joshua Hoffert
At least in all things you do make up.
00;54;50;16 - 00;54;51;25
Murray Dueck
Stuff, but not that one.
00;54;51;28 - 00;55;02;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And all things you are keep God before your face. Yeah. In everything you do, make sure it is in accord with the holy testimonies. You hold the scriptures, the testimony of Holy Scripture. So? So we got the first two down. So. Yeah.
00;55;03;06 - 00;55;30;04
Murray Dueck
so so again, you know, don't rejoice in what you do. Rejoice that you are no right. Adam knew Eve that that's the word there and and but now here's a weird thing. So that story is about not doing, about being Mary and Martha, not about doing, about being. And in the middle, you have the story of the Good Samaritan, which we use to beat ourselves up often, not always about doing.
00;55;30;07 - 00;55;38;23
Murray Dueck
I need to do more. But wait a minute. If everything in a chapter means the same thing, that interpretation just does not hold water.
00;55;38;26 - 00;55;39;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;55;39;04 - 00;56;01;09
Murray Dueck
So how did the early church interpret that, parable? Well, there's a, you know, origin, a two hundreds ish would say, I just want to throw this out there. There is a literal or historical interpretation. We see that Jews and Samaritans did not get along. You know, Samaritans, Jesus was called the Samaritan and and full of demons.
00;56;01;09 - 00;56;22;08
Murray Dueck
A few times by the Pharisees, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. we have the moral interpretation, which would be, hey, be like the Good Samaritan. But there's also the Desert Fathers most of the time, you know, and you can look at this up, go to an Orthodox website today and look up the story of the Good Samaritan Orthodox, see what comes up.
00;56;22;11 - 00;56;46;10
Murray Dueck
And in their version. And this is the early church version and origin was the first one to do hundreds to write this down. the Good Samaritan is Jesus, and the traveler is going from Jerusalem, which is the place of connection with God to Jericho, place of sin. He is going down. You know, we have some words about that and you get beat up on the road to life.
00;56;46;17 - 00;57;10;10
Murray Dueck
Mankind is the traveler, mankind broken, needing a hospital and the Good Samaritan as the Jesus step. They have called him you. Samaritan picks him up, puts him on his own beast of burden, brings him to the inn. And the inn is the church. And he takes care of his wounds with with wine and oil. Why not water? Wine?
00;57;10;10 - 00;57;37;02
Murray Dueck
Communion oil? Anointing chrism of the Holy Spirit. And and he says to the innkeeper, look after him until I return, which is what Jesus said, right till I return. And and so again, it's not that we're not supposed to do things, but Jesus is bringing people to the church, right? For us to take care of them instead of I better go out and I better do all these things because if I don't, right.
00;57;37;04 - 00;57;48;01
Murray Dueck
And so Jesus is comparing the Old Testament law Pharisee, Levite, priest to the work of himself.
00;57;48;03 - 00;57;49;05
Joshua Hoffert
Calls right.
00;57;49;07 - 00;57;54;07
Murray Dueck
Demonized, and a Samaritan.
00;57;54;09 - 00;58;03;21
Murray Dueck
Healing paradigm church. It's a hospital. It's about intimacy and bridal intimacy as we become and God heals our souls. Right there.
00;58;03;24 - 00;58;33;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right, that's right. The he he places them in the care of someone who would help him recover his health. Yeah. And and and that's the journey. That's the when, when you're talking about and this is a this is something we'll cover probably in the next episode because we've got so have lots to say. that when you look at what at some point we're going to dive into, Maximus a Confessor two.
00;58;33;06 - 00;59;16;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. When you look at how the contemplative authors describe the maturation process of a spiritual person, you see them, you know, like we've said with Simeon and Bernard, you see this this maturation of the language of bridal intimacy. But when they talk about what happens in the spiritual life, like, like going back to someone like Anthony the Great Anthony, you get the great probably his highest core value for, spiritual growth and maturity would have been humility.
00;59;17;10 - 00;59;48;27
Joshua Hoffert
yeah. But humility is not a natural, naturally occurring, character trait, right? This is why when Jesus lays out the the tenants of a spiritual person in, you know, someone who is a living, thriving member of the Kingdom of God, the Church of God, and and for for the record, by the way, the there's a it's very popular today to separate.
00;59;49;00 - 00;59;55;04
Joshua Hoffert
Well, the kingdom of God and the Church of God are two different things. In the early church, they were synonymous.
00;59;55;17 - 00;59;56;04
Murray Dueck
well said.
00;59;56;07 - 01;00;20;29
Joshua Hoffert
It's not it's not two different things that the and and in fact in if you look at the historic church as a practice today would say the same thing. So because in Western culture, we separate the physical location from the idea of a thing back then, the physical location was the incarnation of the same. And so the kingdom of God is practiced within the Church of God.
01;00;21;00 - 01;00;41;13
Joshua Hoffert
You can't separate the two. it's just it's just not a thing that you can do. so humility, when Jesus lays out what it means to be a person living within the kingdom of God in Matthew five, he talks about turning the other cheek. He talks about giving the cloak off your back. He talks about reconciling with your brother.
01;00;41;16 - 01;01;05;21
Joshua Hoffert
These are all things that are very difficult for your standard human to accomplish. Very tough. Right? These are not very tough, very, very tough. But he says that's how it's supposed to be amongst you, right? You're supposed to be like your father. You look like your father. So look at your father and become like him. And then you see him building right within them the principles when he goes, hey, let's look at this Good Samaritan parable and pull this apart.
01;01;05;23 - 01;01;29;20
Joshua Hoffert
Like, actually, what, what what I would be about doing is bringing healing to that person. And that's what you're to be about doing is bringing healing to that person. And so, so I and and we're not it's not to say that Marines aren't saying there's not a time or place within the context of Christianity to say, hey, these these practices in the culture are morally wrong, right?
01;01;29;21 - 01;01;46;15
Joshua Hoffert
We're not saying that you would never say that. we're not we're just saying that that's not the primary mission and message of the church and not the primary mission, a message of Christianity. And it's been and I think it seems to me that's been co-opted. no, that's a that's a.
01;01;46;17 - 01;01;52;09
Murray Dueck
You you'll be really good to read. who's name a mona's right here because.
01;01;52;09 - 01;01;56;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, there we go. Let's, let's. Does he talk? We can wrap up. We can wrap up with Ali.
01;01;56;17 - 01;02;03;20
Murray Dueck
Because he talks so much. He puts us all together about the healing and then going out and doing something with it, and he puts it in the right order for it.
01;02;03;20 - 01;02;20;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And he's talking. He's writing to he's writing about people like Elijah. He's writing about people like John the Baptist, and he's writing to, these people that really did something of great significance in the kingdom of God. And he's writing to his disciples, who are monks living within a monastic.
01;02;20;27 - 01;02;22;27
Murray Dueck
And what year are we talking, do you think it was a.
01;02;23;00 - 01;02;46;13
Joshua Hoffert
Century ago, fourth century? Oh, yeah. Three hundreds. A Monas was a disciple of Anthony. Oh, yes. Yeah. So? So he says this rather having first practice much quiet. They then received the power of God dwelling in them. And then God sent them into the midst of men, having acquired every, every virtue so that they might act as God's provisions and cure men of their infirmities.
01;02;46;13 - 01;03;06;20
Joshua Hoffert
Again, the vision of bridal intimacy. We practice much quiet, right? We receive the power of God dwelling in us. It's the Holy Spirit, the indwelling presence, the Holy Spirit. And we were sent out to cure men of their infirmities. That's not talking about physical healing, by the way. They were physicians of the soul, able to cure men's infirmities.
01;03;06;23 - 01;03;28;13
Joshua Hoffert
This was the need for which they were dragged, dragged away from their quiet, and sent to men. But they are only sent when all of their own diseases are healed. So again, bridal intimacy bringing you into a place of healing. Now being sent to bring healing to others. This is the context. A soul cannot be sent into the midst of men for their edification.
01;03;28;13 - 01;03;42;29
Joshua Hoffert
If it has some defect of its own, and those who go before they are made perfect to go with their own will and not at God's. And, I, you know, and I, you know, I'm, if I'm honest, was in front of me. I might push back on that a little bit. That will never be perfect, you know.
01;03;43;05 - 01;04;16;16
Joshua Hoffert
But we have to understand culture, context and everything he's trying to say. The the general message is God is going to heal you by bringing you close to him and infusing you with his presence, and then he's going to send you to heal others. But that's because you've first been healed. This is the context of community. This is why, Anthony said, in whatever place you find yourself, don't easily leave it because the healing paradigm happens in the bridal paradigm, in the church covenant relationship, one with one with another.
01;04;16;19 - 01;04;38;20
Joshua Hoffert
The church is the bride. The church is the kingdom. It's all of these things. It's the it's the place where God's kingdom is made manifest. And, yes, we understand some of the dilemmas that we're presented with on a in a modern world where we have church as organization, nonprofits registered with the government to issue tax receipts, all these kind of things.
01;04;38;22 - 01;05;03;19
Joshua Hoffert
We're not saying that the church is a registered corporation, but we're saying that gathering of people there. So absolutely, the kingdom of God is in their midst. And, that's easy to while the church is not, it's just in there just meeting in a building. Well, you know, like Jesus did say that the temple was going to be the place of God's occupation.
01;05;03;19 - 01;05;13;15
Murray Dueck
So like, well, I mean, I think with the physicality of it, I mean, I, you know, you know, the Spirit of God would fill handkerchiefs and Paul would put them on people and they would be healed.
01;05;13;15 - 01;05;14;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right. That's right.
01;05;14;08 - 01;05;27;02
Murray Dueck
So the fact that the presence of God can fill a physical thing like anointing oil or communion or, a building where people meet, you know, I, I that's right. It's just not just that, but it is.
01;05;27;04 - 01;05;55;26
Joshua Hoffert
Also we read it. Yeah, we read it through our 21st century lens and and we don't even realize just how formed by the enlightenment we've been. You know, your five senses, what you, how you perceive knowledge, how you acquire information. All these things we've been they've been they're filtered through, you know, like it's your it the, the we'll say that the problem with the worldview is that you have a world.
01;05;56;03 - 01;06;35;12
Joshua Hoffert
Ha ha. Yes. Like like and you just you just don't realize that you're filtering information much in a much different way than people 2000 years ago. Filtered information. And, and so we have to take a step back, assess how we see things, reexamine what we're being with, the information that's being presented. And okay, well, when we when we try and peel back the layers and look at Scripture, or do we see a judicial witness to the world, or do we see a place of healing predominantly, and we see a place of healing in the language of Jesus?
01;06;35;12 - 01;06;57;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And so I think, Mary, with that, I think we have to call this close enough. Yeah. That's right, that's right. And so everybody, thank you so much for tuning in. We're just so appreciate all all your feedback, all the comments. and drop a message to us either email through our websites or find website or links there.
01;06;57;08 - 01;07;13;20
Joshua Hoffert
Look us up on Facebook, or Instagram or any of those things and, send us a message and let us know what kind of questions you have, because we'd love to address those as well. yeah. And, without further ado, until next time, everybody. God bless you all. Bye.