Bridal Paradigm: Sanctified Imagination and the Eyes of the Heart Artwork

Voices from the Desert

In the early days of Christianity, men and women fled to the desert and became the wisest sages of their era. Voices from the Desert explores how the wisdom of Ancient Christianity applies to our modern world. Where do the streams of historic Christianity intersect with contemporary Christianity? And how do we come to know God deep in our heart? Join Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck for a deep dive into the mystics, union with God, patristic theology and what it all means in our modern world.

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Voices from the Desert

Bridal Paradigm: Sanctified Imagination and the Eyes of the Heart

July 24, 2024 • Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck

What roles does the imagination play in prayerful exercises? Are visionary experiences a thing for today? Join Josh and Murray as they dive into the writings of the Christian mystics to see what they have to say!

For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/

For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

To check out the book Murray recommended: https://www.amazon.com/Jesuit-Guide-Almost-Everything-Spirituality/dp/0061432695/

00;00;15;09 - 00;00;19;05
Joshua Hoffert
You.

00;00;19;07 - 00;00;43;15
Joshua Hoffert
Just like you can't enlighten your own eyes right here. You don't have the ability to swipe for a full price of the spirit of wisdom and revelation like yours. You can't just like yourself. But you sure can. Darkness, right? Which is just what you're saying there is. Kill ourselves. All kinds of stuff.

00;00;43;18 - 00;00;47;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah. I don't even think we're completely aware.

00;00;47;17 - 00;00;59;12
Murray Dueck
No, I don't think so.

00;00;59;15 - 00;01;01;01
Murray Dueck
You.

00;01;01;04 - 00;01;05;26
Murray Dueck
Welcome, everyone, to another episode of voices from the doors.

00;01;05;26 - 00;01;08;20
Joshua Hoffert
All those. Are those hurt?

00;01;08;22 - 00;01;25;27
Murray Dueck
Oh, boo boo boo. Woo woo! Now, everybody, just so you know, eventually what should happen is that I have two sheepdog puppies. That's right. And when they hear that, they should attempt to kill me at some point.

00;01;25;29 - 00;01;27;01
Joshua Hoffert
Because that's their job.

00;01;27;02 - 00;01;30;29
Murray Dueck
That's. I want them when they hear a coyote, hell to go. Someone's going to die.

00;01;31;06 - 00;01;40;13
Joshua Hoffert
So one day we'll do an experiment. I'll do the coyote howl, and we'll see if you get mobbed. That's right. Yeah. That's right. Oh, thank. Oh my goodness. Yes.

00;01;40;15 - 00;01;47;08
Murray Dueck
just like, if you ever watch Bugs Bunny where the coyotes, Ralph and who's Ralph Wiley.

00;01;47;08 - 00;01;50;07
Joshua Hoffert
Wiley coyote in bugs Bunny.

00;01;50;12 - 00;01;56;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And he's with the dog, and they're always checking in there punching a clock, and. Yeah, that's going to be life on the farm for me.

00;01;57;02 - 00;01;57;21
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Get out.

00;01;57;21 - 00;02;00;05
Murray Dueck
There. You to guard that? Guard the homestead.

00;02;00;09 - 00;02;11;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right, that's right. And so for anybody wondering about, you know, they're kind of their lingering trauma of not experiencing Murray last week on the podcast.

00;02;11;13 - 00;02;14;00
Murray Dueck
Yes, I was off getting, hey.

00;02;14;02 - 00;02;21;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. And you had just yeah. Hey was being delivered and you had just come back from where you were. That was the day after.

00;02;21;26 - 00;02;24;02
Murray Dueck
You up in Edmonton. Okay. Great.

00;02;24;05 - 00;02;35;21
Joshua Hoffert
Puppies. There you go. And the the redemption story of Aiden's lineage for those that have followed as well, knowing about Aiden's tragic passing. And these.

00;02;35;21 - 00;02;37;26
Murray Dueck
Are his brother and sister.

00;02;37;27 - 00;02;40;06
Joshua Hoffert
Which was awesome. Yes. Yeah. So this is like.

00;02;40;06 - 00;02;55;21
Murray Dueck
The last litter I think they were going to have. And we're like. And so getting one that looks just like Aiden just seemed a bit heartbreaking. This, you know, every time you look at him you see you see Aiden. Right. So, to get the two, it's quite beautiful. They play together all the time.

00;02;55;21 - 00;02;56;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;02;56;06 - 00;03;08;15
Murray Dueck
And, we have this big kind of Great Pyrenees guy, and he's kind of decided, to parent them, which is cool. And Sammy's still here, so. Yeah, it's quite a menagerie going on here. Everyone at Eden Farm sanctuary.

00;03;08;21 - 00;03;18;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So, yeah, if you want to look. Yeah, you can find that on, your social media accounts. Google at Eden's Farm Way sanctuary is a recovery farm for animals that.

00;03;18;05 - 00;03;38;03
Murray Dueck
Lead into a farm sanctuary, that's what. Yeah. And it's great. I mean, for me, I it's quite an answer to prayer in the fact that I wanted more of a prayerful lifestyle. And, and, you know, this year gives me lots of time to pray and it's not so easy. I remember it wasn't that great group of nans in the year, I think.

00;03;38;06 - 00;03;53;25
Murray Dueck
I think it was Greg and Anthony and he's writing. The Basil and Basil had moved on to the family property and you go, so what's going on out there? How's it going? And Basil writes back and he gives him a good description of the property. And, and Gregory goes, I that's not what I wanted to know what's happening with your soul.

00;03;54;02 - 00;03;55;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And I think.

00;03;55;01 - 00;04;07;03
Murray Dueck
Basil writes back, you know, basically, you know what it would be, it would be great if it just it would be great if I wasn't here. Like, right. Like wherever you go, there you are.

00;04;07;04 - 00;04;07;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;04;07;25 - 00;04;13;24
Murray Dueck
Like, you think that change of scenery will, like, everything will be better if I just change. But no, you take yourself with you, right?

00;04;13;24 - 00;04;15;21
Joshua Hoffert
So. Yeah, that's really something I've.

00;04;15;23 - 00;04;42;03
Murray Dueck
I've, really lived with prayer. And it's, you know, wherever you go, you know, your, your, your faults and addictions, like, as in, like, I love reading the news, I really do, but it's very especially lately. There's lots to read. But boy, it affects your prayer life. It affects your, what you think about what your mind goes, and you're trying to stay with Jesus, and you're, like, thinking American politics, which, you know, I'm sure me and most of the world are currently doing.

00;04;42;03 - 00;05;01;15
Murray Dueck
But. Right. But it's you learn a lot about your heart. And so these things like we're working on right now, different ways to stay in communion with the Lord in bridal intimacy. Very powerful. They help with the development of this. And we're going to, you know, we're doing one more. We started the first part of this, a few weeks back.

00;05;01;17 - 00;05;01;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;05;02;00 - 00;05;25;05
Murray Dueck
And, and, we got to the point of actually doing the activation. And so picturing sanctified imagination is right. We did the examine. We did, lexia Divina. And now we're going to do sanctified imagination as an activation. And and really, again, my favorite contemplative prayer form is the Jesus prayer, which we're moving there.

00;05;25;09 - 00;05;26;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yep.

00;05;26;13 - 00;05;29;17
Murray Dueck
Our WhatsApp. Yeah. This is where we are today. And why.

00;05;29;20 - 00;05;36;09
Joshua Hoffert
Mary I was thinking this morning, actually, I was reflecting on our episode with father Mike and.

00;05;36;11 - 00;05;37;09
Murray Dueck
That was a brilliant.

00;05;37;13 - 00;05;59;02
Joshua Hoffert
It really was, and how he was talking about the the eyes of the heart and the news. Right. Were. And so I've just I've been thinking about the dimensions of self in, you know, different the different schematics that that, that have been offered for understanding the maker like Watchmen.

00;05;59;02 - 00;06;00;15
Murray Dueck
These would be the classic, right.

00;06;00;19 - 00;06;05;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's well, it's the classic Evangelion one, but it's not the classic one because it's not nearly as old.

00;06;05;27 - 00;06;07;15
Murray Dueck
It's not as. Oh, that's right.

00;06;07;17 - 00;06;36;14
Joshua Hoffert
So how he was talking through the father's teaching on the news and the eyes of the heart. I was thinking about this, how, and this is pertinent to what we're talking about today. how the you know, we were talking a little bit about Ephesians one with father Mike. Right. The Paul's prayer that the eyes of your heart would be enlightened to see the hope of his calling for his glorious inheritance and his immeasurable power, right.

00;06;36;17 - 00;07;07;22
Joshua Hoffert
and that, you know, my great epiphany was the eyes look inward, not outward. Right. It's the eyes that help you see the heart and that deep inner sanctum of your being, what resides there. Right? Yeah. Shocked. And and actually, the word I saw, I was looking it up today, just just getting somewhere with this, that when Paul says that the eyes of your heart would be enlightened to know the hope of the hope of his calling, his glorious inheritance, right, that the word for no, there is not the Conosco or Epica.

00;07;07;22 - 00;07;09;05
Joshua Hoffert
No SCO. It's the Idaho.

00;07;09;08 - 00;07;10;04
Murray Dueck
It's the Idaho that.

00;07;10;04 - 00;07;15;05
Joshua Hoffert
We just see right there that you would see. Yeah, your eyes would be enlightened, that you would see.

00;07;15;08 - 00;07;21;02
Murray Dueck
That you would shine. In the book of revelation, I looked up, I, I yeah, I saw, I wrote, I did.

00;07;21;05 - 00;07;46;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. So, so I was thinking about this that he's saying that the eyes of your heart that your news would be so full of light that that the wall get there in a second. But that for one, when you what you see is his calling, his inheritance and his power. Right? So you see him basically, you see the kingdom of heaven within him, in you living his life through you.

00;07;46;00 - 00;07;55;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right? That's that's what you see now. Right? And then I was thinking, well, if your eyes can be enlightened, they can probably be in darkened, which is what Jesus ha! Right in Matthew six.

00;07;55;24 - 00;07;59;03
Murray Dueck
Do you not laugh there? That was a bad emotional response. We should have been weeping.

00;07;59;03 - 00;08;02;28
Joshua Hoffert
And all of, all of our lives have all of our eyes have been and darkened.

00;08;02;28 - 00;08;03;08
Murray Dueck
I will.

00;08;03;08 - 00;08;03;25
Joshua Hoffert
Some level.

00;08;03;25 - 00;08;04;24
Murray Dueck
They are relating.

00;08;05;00 - 00;08;10;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. some level they always are. Right. That's kind of the great struggle. And the.

00;08;10;14 - 00;08;12;16
Murray Dueck
Joseph's baby. Yeah. Back there again.

00;08;12;23 - 00;08;38;17
Joshua Hoffert
And I was thinking that, that you're like you can't enlighten your own eyes. Right. You're, you don't have the ability to enlighten. That's why Paul prays that the spirit of wisdom and revelation would enlighten your the eyes are you can't enlighten them yourself, but you sure can darken them. Right. Which is just what you're saying there is.

00;08;38;24 - 00;08;42;26
Joshua Hoffert
We fill ourselves with all kinds of stuff.

00;08;42;29 - 00;08;46;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah. I don't even think we're completely aware of the effects of it.

00;08;46;25 - 00;08;55;15
Joshua Hoffert
No, I don't think so. And what? And I wonder if, you know, he says again, we'll have to have father Mike back on that. Yeah.

00;08;55;15 - 00;09;03;04
Murray Dueck
So we go. Father Mike fixes all our plugs. We talk, we joke about that. Well, that's right, father Mike. Mike, back on the fix our theology again.

00;09;03;07 - 00;09;24;22
Joshua Hoffert
We get well, we get caught up with news cycles and speculation and theories and, you know, so you get the the Trump assassination attempt and then you get Biden stepping down. And so that creates this whole new cycle we all got sucked into. And then you get, you know, in on the charismatic side of things, you get the prophetic people who come out of the woodwork and claim they all prophesied this and saw this beforehand.

00;09;24;22 - 00;09;48;03
Joshua Hoffert
And, you know, it's like I heard someone say or read somewhere something to the effect that was like, if you need to tell people how right you were in your prophecy, then you probably are doing it wrong in the first place anyway, you know? Yeah, yeah. And it's not very often that the prophets in the Old or New Testament point back and say, see, I told you so, right?

00;09;48;03 - 00;10;09;24
Joshua Hoffert
They let their words stand for themselves. And the fact that you like I like it just drives me crazy that you got these guys going the the they actually like, okay, this is my cynical side. They, they actually use the assassination attempt as a means of building their social media following. Right. That's that is what they're doing right?

00;10;09;24 - 00;10;38;00
Joshua Hoffert
And as well-meaning as they may be, that is what their whole reason why you grab a clip, put it on social media, is so that it makes the rounds, it gets shared around and you gain attraction, you gain a following it. It's it's so disingenuous when it comes to, prophetic ministry. So because so our eyes are and darkened and I would, I would, hypothesize that those kind of practices are the result of in darkened eyes.

00;10;38;00 - 00;10;41;08
Joshua Hoffert
But, you know, that's a topic for another another day.

00;10;41;10 - 00;10;43;19
Murray Dueck
Which is that which is, a really good topic.

00;10;43;26 - 00;10;44;20
Joshua Hoffert
What it is talk.

00;10;44;20 - 00;10;49;20
Murray Dueck
About that which will come back up under Jesus for I'm absolutely sure, because we need to talk about, look, this morning.

00;10;49;22 - 00;11;07;07
Joshua Hoffert
When, when your eyes are in darkened, it's not like you don't see anything, okay? You just see the wrong things. And when you see the wrong things they do, you tend to pretend that they're the right things.

00;11;07;09 - 00;11;16;09
Murray Dueck
That's a good way to say it. You know, I, I yeah, there's a verse in Isaiah. John Sanford was always fond of quoting who is is blind in his death is my servant.

00;11;16;12 - 00;11;18;11
Joshua Hoffert
Bro. Right. And

00;11;18;14 - 00;11;28;03
Murray Dueck
And it says, you know, you gotta ask the Lord to put blinders on you like horses used to have on the side. Yeah. So you're not seeing all this stuff that distracts you. You're, you know, you're seeing the one thing. Need it.

00;11;28;06 - 00;11;29;26
Joshua Hoffert
Well, that's the thing is, when your eyes are.

00;11;29;26 - 00;11;30;18
Murray Dueck
On Jesus.

00;11;30;18 - 00;11;52;28
Joshua Hoffert
When your eyes aren't enlightened to see Jesus within. Right? When that's not your constant, the constant vigil of your heart is to witness His spirit birthing his nature in you, right? His glorious inheritance, his immeasurable power. I used to read that as the hope of my calling and my inheritance. right. I just, I have notes where I'd write it out and I would be like, oh, we need to know the hope of our calling.

00;11;52;28 - 00;11;54;13
Joshua Hoffert
And it's like, well, no, it's all about, well, me too.

00;11;54;13 - 00;11;56;00
Murray Dueck
I thought the same thing. Right? Like, yeah.

00;11;56;03 - 00;11;58;03
Joshua Hoffert
It's so easy to to misread that.

00;11;58;06 - 00;12;02;05
Murray Dueck
And as we go, it's actually in context. It's knowing him is the high calling.

00;12;02;10 - 00;12;04;02
Joshua Hoffert
We make ourselves the center of.

00;12;04;03 - 00;12;04;15
Murray Dueck
The thought.

00;12;04;15 - 00;12;18;23
Joshua Hoffert
That, well, we make ourselves the center of the story, not God. And so we put ourselves in the middle, and he's the one that's in the middle. And so we have to learn how to walk away from that. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you know, see all of our previous episodes for that journey. Right. Yeah.

00;12;18;24 - 00;12;21;02
Murray Dueck
God's prophetic manifesto.

00;12;21;05 - 00;12;50;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. so my what I was thinking this morning as I was contemplating Ephesians one and praying, you know, prayerfully considering it anyway, is, that you have there's certain rhythms or disciplines that, that clear the air. So to speak, to create an atmosphere in the heart that would lend itself to the Spirit's activity in enlightening it.

00;12;50;04 - 00;13;22;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right. We've talked about fasting. We talk about silence and solitude, all these things we're going to be talking about, especially as it pertains to the practice of the Jesus prayer. Right. but what it what I'm thinking about today is it leads us into this, as we've been talking about the use of the imagination, right? The use of the imagination in, contemplative exercises, the use of the imagination in reading Scripture, and, and how you can't help but imagine Scripture when you read it.

00;13;22;23 - 00;13;23;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Right. Yeah.

00;13;23;24 - 00;13;27;04
Murray Dueck
And we work that through everybody. Last, last one, if you remember.

00;13;27;04 - 00;13;27;18
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;13;27;18 - 00;13;28;29
Murray Dueck
We we did Psalm 23.

00;13;29;06 - 00;13;38;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And it's, it's, it's actually so, deeply ingrained in what it means to be human. The imagination.

00;13;38;22 - 00;13;39;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;13;39;07 - 00;13;41;08
Joshua Hoffert
You can't get away from it.

00;13;41;11 - 00;13;42;12
Murray Dueck
It's just automatic.

00;13;42;19 - 00;13;45;13
Joshua Hoffert
It is. It really is. It is automatic.

00;13;45;15 - 00;13;59;14
Murray Dueck
And it's it's again, it's interesting like like, again, if you read Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, you know, it's breaking down the Greek words love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Mind there is actively use imagination. Right?

00;13;59;17 - 00;13;59;25
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;13;59;25 - 00;14;25;12
Murray Dueck
And you know, but nobody teaches that. And well, not nobody. The Catholics and the Anglicans and the and probably the Lutherans do. And it's getting a little more popular with spiritual direction in the charismatic. But it's, it's, you know, we've the imagination has taken this really bad rap, which again, you know, you know, listen to a radio and, and the TV or go on the internet, they're always appealing you to your imagination about, the new electric.

00;14;25;12 - 00;14;27;02
Joshua Hoffert
Cars or your.

00;14;27;04 - 00;14;49;11
Murray Dueck
Holiday or vacation or the new kitchen Renault. But boy, don't use it around anything about God. I mean, it's right. It's like saying having a musical gift. Let's say you have a musical gift, but you're not allowed to ever guess that that's what they used to believe, right? I mean, don't bring instruments into the church, right? Right. You know, you can use it out there, but don't you don't bring it in here.

00;14;49;18 - 00;15;10;27
Murray Dueck
And you'd be like, well, God created this, didn't he? And but, you know, we still do that often with this part of us, even though we do it automatically reading Psalm 23 or, or the armor of God or whatever. And it's, it's it's still got kind of a bad rap from, from, you know, throwing everything out back in the Reformation days.

00;15;11;00 - 00;15;15;21
Murray Dueck
So and it's, you know, it's it's time to really realize God sanctifies every part of.

00;15;15;21 - 00;15;16;16
Joshua Hoffert
Us, right?

00;15;16;16 - 00;15;26;21
Murray Dueck
You know, just like you can listen to you want to listen to death metal? Do you want to listen to Jonathan? David helps you sing Hallelujah. I mean, what do you want to listen to? Right? Well, what do you want to picture?

00;15;26;23 - 00;15;54;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's. Yeah, exactly. Because what you, what you give yourself to. Yeah. Will will eventually show up in your thought life. Right. Yeah. Well and and so that's why when we talk about disciplines of negation and discipline, the disciplines that are disciplines of negation, disciplines that are disciplines of addition, right. Some things you remove from your life, silence and solitude removes noise and people from your life.

00;15;54;01 - 00;16;19;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Fasting removes food or whatever. You're fasting from your life, right? Disciplines of addition. So prayer that fills your life. Remembrance of God, that fills your life, right. So so none of the none of these things enlighten you, but they set the stage for the the proper and right use. Well, proper is probably the wrong word, but really the helpful, beneficial use of the imagination.

00;16;19;15 - 00;16;59;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And, and we've seen looking at the landscape of, for instance, prophetic ministry today we see how the imagination in certain people run amok. Like, I'm thinking back to a few years ago. well, well, here's just a rabbit trails, in the sense of the imagination is, just and social commentary on prophetic ministry today. so a few years ago, at the beginning of Covid, it was in 2020, right around the, you know, the kind of were full swing into the Covid lockdowns, BLM riots happen.

00;16;59;19 - 00;17;16;24
Joshua Hoffert
And there's this guy who comes out and shares three dreams that he had, I'm pretty sure he shared them before the riots happened. If I remember the time, the timeline of events, I and he was a pastor of a small church and, the southern states in America. And they were they were.

00;17;16;24 - 00;17;17;22
Murray Dueck
I remember this.

00;17;17;22 - 00;17;41;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So they were, seemingly predictive in nature. Right? They talked about riots happening in the streets. And that's what caught everybody's attention, is they talked about riots happening in the streets. And, and then they culminated the the last part is that he saw Chinese armies invading the shore, the top of the banks taken off and money siphoned out and all this stuff.

00;17;41;10 - 00;18;00;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right? So this great economic collapse and, and so this, this, it picked up a ton of traction, you know, it went from just kind of a he was just a local pastor who actually recorded them because he had them and was sharing them with his congregation. And they just when he wasn't trying to share them, they just went wild on social media.

00;18;00;21 - 00;18;16;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right? They had the right set of circumstances with what people were searching and algorithms for that. Right. And so and then he makes this comment when he was commenting in the videos that, you know, he's well informed because he reads at least 40 news publications a day.

00;18;16;24 - 00;18;18;03
Murray Dueck
That's right. That's right.

00;18;18;03 - 00;19;09;28
Joshua Hoffert
I remember that very specifically. And it's like, oh, okay. That and then now you've got entering into your news right? Entering into your news into your the lexicon of your heart are is all these concepts right. Yeah. And so now what you see when you close your eyes is all this stuff. Right. And, and that's and again that's that one of the things we're seeing today in the wake of the assassination attempt is a similar thing is people have been talking about like, like, political pundits have been talking about the plan is that Biden would step down and Kamala Harris would become the new person, and that people were going to try and assassinate

00;19;09;28 - 00;19;35;18
Joshua Hoffert
Trump because, I mean, Joe Rogan said it. or what's the Tucker Carlson said it on Joe Rogan like six months ago. So this isn't like prophetic. It's just what's in the cultural milieu today. Right? So it enters into the prophetic lexicon because prophetic people give themselves to the news and media because we can't help it. Right? And then we close our eyes and we see them happening and we go, it's a vision, right?

00;19;35;23 - 00;19;41;26
Joshua Hoffert
And then we go on to our social media feed, and we exploit the vision and we try and build a following.

00;19;41;28 - 00;19;50;20
Murray Dueck
So yeah, I think everybody, you know, it's good to realize again how how we're wired and a couple of things here. I just want to add, if you don't mind.

00;19;50;24 - 00;19;52;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;19;52;08 - 00;20;00;04
Murray Dueck
like. And everyone please forgive if you do hear some puppies in the background.

00;20;00;07 - 00;20;03;11
Joshua Hoffert
They're just wrestling around. That's fine. Yeah.

00;20;03;14 - 00;20;09;25
Murray Dueck
They, they just just remember, someday they will be protecting all the animals from.

00;20;09;27 - 00;20;10;19
Joshua Hoffert
These bears.

00;20;10;19 - 00;20;16;06
Murray Dueck
Wolves and cougars. So you're hearing as you are being trained in the prophetic, they are being trained.

00;20;16;08 - 00;20;16;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah.

00;20;16;29 - 00;20;19;29
Murray Dueck
You are. You are the puppy, everybody. You're that puppy.

00;20;20;02 - 00;20;21;26
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. There we go. We are the puppy.

00;20;21;29 - 00;20;46;13
Murray Dueck
We are the puppy. Oh, we should get a t shirt right there. You're the puppy. So when you when you think about how your, your insides work right. and the effects of what you see and what you connect to. So if you think of it, here's a really obvious one. If you're going to go look at porn or something like that, what are you probably going to be picturing for the next couple weeks?

00;20;46;13 - 00;21;02;06
Murray Dueck
Even if you repent and and what's going to happen to your emotions, right. And we all know this is going to be really bad, right? It's going to be really bad. But okay. So let's say it's not part what if it's politics where people are being sarcastic and accusing other people?

00;21;02;13 - 00;21;03;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right.

00;21;03;29 - 00;21;21;23
Murray Dueck
You know, and we're like, well, that's okay. Well think about the feeling of the bitterness or the judgment or I'm right, they're wrong. You know, you're still picking up stuff from the atmosphere exactly as you would pick up stuff from watching porn. you know, I hate to say that. So am I saying not to watch anything? No.

00;21;21;25 - 00;21;39;11
Murray Dueck
You got but you got to be careful. Yeah, right. You got to be so aware of your level of peace that once it gets to challenge, you have to go, oh, you know, after I watch that, something's off. Right? But you have to be aware of your own inner dynamic. Yeah. And and here's why that's important. And and I'll give you an example.

00;21;39;11 - 00;22;00;19
Murray Dueck
I had this gal and, she contacted me. I, I don't know her very well. and she was having all these dreams about the end time. She was sure were about the end times. And and I'm like, I'm reading them. And, you know, they're all the horrible fill in the blank Antichrist stuff, right? And and I'm like, how much time do you spend reading about the end time?

00;22;00;22 - 00;22;12;11
Murray Dueck
She goes all my time. And I'm like, well, I hate to tell you, but these dreams aren't about the end time you spent. So much time thinking about this. Your subconscious is now using this as symbolism about your own.

00;22;12;11 - 00;22;14;15
Joshua Hoffert
Life, right? This is about.

00;22;14;15 - 00;22;14;28
Murray Dueck
You.

00;22;15;00 - 00;22;15;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;22;16;00 - 00;22;26;17
Murray Dueck
And I mean, I remember Peter up on the roof and what's he doing x ten? He, he's hungry. And what's his vision about a sheep coming down with creepy animals killing eat.

00;22;26;19 - 00;22;27;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Well.

00;22;27;19 - 00;22;47;15
Murray Dueck
You know, you know, what do you want to draw to yourself. And that's an important point. So if I would have a class and I'm saying, okay, everybody, I want you to picture Psalm 23, okay? The Lord is my shepherd. He makes me lie down in green pastures, leads me by still waters. Okay, okay. So everyone, I want to just hold that I in class.

00;22;47;18 - 00;23;03;18
Murray Dueck
I see now everyone while you while you're holding that this is what I want you to do. I want you to think about something that really ticks you off of that. It makes you mad. Something that maybe makes you fearful. I want you to start to ponder those emotions. Okay? We're going to stay here for a minute and then we'll repent.

00;23;03;18 - 00;23;23;04
Murray Dueck
Okay? We're back. Okay. And I said, okay everybody. What happens to the picture of, of of Psalm 2923? Oh, the grass dies, right? that the water dries up. Okay. So is that prophetic note that it is in a way, it's describing your own inner world.

00;23;23;06 - 00;23;23;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;23;23;25 - 00;23;26;00
Murray Dueck
The symbolism is about you.

00;23;26;02 - 00;23;26;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right.

00;23;26;25 - 00;23;33;26
Murray Dueck
So if you're going to fill yourself with all kinds of trash, that's what it does to your ability to see.

00;23;33;28 - 00;23;34;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yes, yes.

00;23;34;18 - 00;23;35;18
Murray Dueck
Like that.

00;23;35;20 - 00;23;36;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;23;36;07 - 00;23;40;19
Murray Dueck
So what you put your eyes on, you will encounter.

00;23;40;21 - 00;23;41;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;23;41;23 - 00;23;55;15
Murray Dueck
And you will become right. We will then build faces. We beheld his glory and we're transformed, you know. Right. And so it's important to realize that. And then people can can be looking at trash and go, I've got a revelation. Right.

00;23;55;15 - 00;23;56;06
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly.

00;23;56;06 - 00;23;59;17
Murray Dueck
Well, here it says, so what are you looking at to get your revelation?

00;23;59;17 - 00;24;00;05
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly.

00;24;00;08 - 00;24;04;19
Murray Dueck
What is your revelation being formed by you? So it's your bridal intimacy with Christ.

00;24;04;19 - 00;24;14;16
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. so, Murray, like, I just want to, you know, sub, you know, subtext to that or just put in addition to.

00;24;14;22 - 00;24;15;25
Murray Dueck
Like it like the ball.

00;24;15;25 - 00;24;32;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You got me really excited. So I was thinking about this. First Corinthians two tells us that, we have the mind of Christ, right? Like the first Corinthians 216 and so it's who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him, but we have the mind of Christ. All right. That's right. So have the mind of Christ.

00;24;32;12 - 00;24;32;27
Joshua Hoffert
Okay, great.

00;24;33;03 - 00;24;34;16
Murray Dueck
Actually, there for mind is news.

00;24;34;16 - 00;24;53;28
Joshua Hoffert
It is news. It's right. It is news. Yeah. So I point it out. so we have the mind of Christ. Okay. So then you might argue, well, anything I imagine. Right. Sanctified imagination, anything I imagine becomes can be become revelation. Right. And that's oftentimes what prophetic people do is why.

00;24;54;00 - 00;24;56;03
Murray Dueck
And the answer is it depends.

00;24;56;06 - 00;25;04;28
Joshua Hoffert
It depends. Well then so then the follow up, the follow up is Romans 12 says that we need to be renewed in our mind.

00;25;05;01 - 00;25;06;21
Murray Dueck
That's right. And the word mind there is also.

00;25;06;23 - 00;25;33;28
Joshua Hoffert
Is also news. Exactly, exactly. So we need to be renewed in our mind. And we also have the mind of Christ. It's not one or the other right? Both. But it's a journey. Right. And so we actually need so we could say to be renewed in your mind or in your news in the eyes of your heart is to expunge from your heart all the things that would take it from the clear inner vision.

00;25;34;00 - 00;25;34;16
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;25;34;16 - 00;26;04;27
Joshua Hoffert
So when we look at we talked about this a little bit, a few episodes ago. yeah. When we were talking about the, the use of visions and we looked at Anthony the Great, you know, and a few others. Right. That one of the things I think we were looking at, John Ruiz broke here. One of the things he's saying is that when someone is having a contemplative moment, right, sometimes what happens is prophetic things are revealed.

00;26;04;29 - 00;26;27;19
Joshua Hoffert
Right? So we're acknowledging that these things can happen. And we see in Christian history and especially in the contemplative writers, them acknowledging that these things can happen. The difference is they say you're caught up in a vision of Christ, and then you see prophetic things. Today in prophetic ministry, we're caught up with the vision of prophetic things, and we don't see Christ.

00;26;27;22 - 00;26;28;17
Murray Dueck
Oh boy, oh boy.

00;26;28;20 - 00;26;52;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right. Because we've we've because of what we've filled our mind with. Right. So the contemplative authors talk about expunging the mind from all of those things. Right? The discipline of negation. This is why they have disciplines and rhythms. And then in beholding Christ, occasionally something is revealed and it's difficult to communicate that thing. Right. So John Russell Brooks says and others say that as well.

00;26;52;22 - 00;26;56;01
Joshua Hoffert
So I Anthony goes, well, we got to figure out what's a true and a false vision.

00;26;56;03 - 00;26;56;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;26;56;25 - 00;26;58;15
Joshua Hoffert
Right. We talked about that as well.

00;26;58;16 - 00;26;59;06
Murray Dueck
Last episode.

00;26;59;07 - 00;27;05;16
Joshua Hoffert
That's the last episode we talked about that the last well last episode. Yeah. Last episode we interviewed Chris I interviewed.

00;27;05;17 - 00;27;06;18
Murray Dueck
Oh that's right, that's right.

00;27;06;25 - 00;27;08;25
Joshua Hoffert
There he was with me in spirit. Yes.

00;27;08;25 - 00;27;12;01
Murray Dueck
He means the episode without the coyote. Hell yeah.

00;27;12;01 - 00;27;13;19
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. This right there is one.

00;27;13;20 - 00;27;14;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;27;14;06 - 00;27;30;29
Joshua Hoffert
There was one. So in the whole, in the whole run of voices from the desert, I guess it's one of the only ones without the coyote. Owl. and and so we just have to be conscientious of that. Yeah, we we have the mind of Christ, but we're also to be renewed in our mind, in the spirit of our mouth.

00;27;30;29 - 00;27;46;07
Murray Dueck
And it's so it's important, you know, what do you what do you want to draw? Okay. I'll give you an example. Is that okay? I'll get now. yeah. So, you know, if we're talking about Philippians, I think 3 or 4, I'm sorry, where it says, whatever is good, whatever is right, think about these things. God of peace will be with you.

00;27;46;07 - 00;27;47;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah, right. What?

00;27;47;16 - 00;27;49;20
Joshua Hoffert
I think that's four. I think that's four. But I could be right.

00;27;49;20 - 00;28;15;29
Murray Dueck
And heard in me, do these things right and and God will be with you. So so the he's giving you a principle if you think about rejoice always again I say rejoice. you know, I should probably just read it because I'm butchering it, anyway. But, you know, the peace of God is with you. So which what what he's saying is, if what you look at, you draw.

00;28;16;01 - 00;28;16;28
Murray Dueck
Okay? What are you looking at?

00;28;16;28 - 00;28;17;22
Joshua Hoffert
You draw. Right.

00;28;17;25 - 00;28;33;24
Murray Dueck
So I remember I had these these, I was doing work in the street kids back in the day. Right. And, you know, they've been Christians for, let's say, six months. This group of guys, there's like 5 or 6 of them, and they're probably grade 12, I think, at the time. And the latest, you know, they're doing good.

00;28;33;25 - 00;28;48;04
Murray Dueck
You know, they're, you know, they're following Jesus. They're doing their best. But the latest horror movie of chapter 20 is coming out and they're like, hey, can we go see that? I go, no, guys, not a good idea. And they're like, okay, pastor, it only call me pastor if I did something bad.

00;28;48;08 - 00;28;49;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right, right.

00;28;49;07 - 00;29;08;01
Murray Dueck
For them, that was a bad word. So so guys, don't do this. And okay, so I get this phone call for 1230. Same group of guys. They went to see that stupid movie and they're like, oh man, we're freaking out. The shadows are moving. It feels really, really creepy. And I'm like, did you guys go see that movie?

00;29;08;01 - 00;29;10;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yes, pastor. I'm like, oh, guys.

00;29;10;25 - 00;29;15;15
Murray Dueck
You put your eyes on something evil and now you're having an evil encounter, right?

00;29;15;16 - 00;29;21;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Like also. But also notice it was Pastor Murray when you could help them and they needed I know. Right?

00;29;21;21 - 00;29;22;21
Murray Dueck
They were like.

00;29;22;24 - 00;29;26;14
Joshua Hoffert
yeah, that's supposed to be, Yeah, they're.

00;29;26;15 - 00;29;32;13
Murray Dueck
Basically still decent, but I'm like, they didn't want me to be right. They're like, yeah. It took a lot of humility for the call.

00;29;32;15 - 00;29;33;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Right.

00;29;33;18 - 00;29;47;28
Murray Dueck
But but the point is, you know what you look at, you draw so, so to to look at things that make us angry or judgmental or self-righteous. Those guys are wrong. I'm right, you know, and you might even be right.

00;29;48;00 - 00;29;49;00
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;29;49;02 - 00;30;07;13
Murray Dueck
But look at the spirit behind it. And if you prophesied from that spirit, you could even have proper information. But if you don't have the proper heart, it's still, you know, you can have revelation, but you like again, it doesn't mean your interpretation, application, presentation and timing is right, right?

00;30;07;19 - 00;30;07;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;30;07;29 - 00;30;18;11
Murray Dueck
So so I mean, the Desert Fathers would say, how do you know someone is full of the Holy Spirit? How do we know what's the absolute way? You know, to love your enemies?

00;30;18;12 - 00;30;18;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;30;19;00 - 00;30;21;29
Murray Dueck
Because it's only through the love of the Holy Spirit could we possibly.

00;30;21;29 - 00;30;25;25
Joshua Hoffert
Do that, right? Yeah. That's right. Yeah. So that's right. But again.

00;30;25;25 - 00;30;28;24
Murray Dueck
It's the biblical principle is what you look at, you're going to encounter.

00;30;29;01 - 00;30;29;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;30;29;10 - 00;30;48;07
Murray Dueck
So, and, and it's, it's important to know that as somebody who wants the mirror of our soul, which is a good quote from Saint Teresa here to go back to, actually, we want the mirror of our soul to be reflecting Christ, and therefore we encounter Christ. Yeah, right. And and you know, these activations. What what are they for?

00;30;48;14 - 00;30;51;01
Murray Dueck
Right. He's there's they're for that.

00;30;51;04 - 00;30;51;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;30;51;14 - 00;30;57;10
Murray Dueck
They're not to figure out revelation or they're not to figure out anointing. They're not to build your ministry. They're not.

00;30;57;10 - 00;30;57;24
Joshua Hoffert
They're right.

00;30;57;27 - 00;31;07;01
Murray Dueck
There to encounter Christ so that the mirror of your soul reflects him. We were unveiled faces behold his glory, and we reflect that glory like a mirror.

00;31;07;08 - 00;31;08;11
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Right.

00;31;08;13 - 00;31;10;16
Murray Dueck
And that's what we're doing here.

00;31;10;21 - 00;31;14;12
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. And you, you find that Marie, you shared the,

00;31;14;14 - 00;31;15;14
Murray Dueck
Sorry. You know, worked up.

00;31;15;17 - 00;31;37;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. No. That's good. We like preacher Marie. yeah. The shared you shared, I think it was the our last episode you shared about the desert father who the the the guy in the gal come to visit him. They they do the deed in the middle of the night, and he to. And they repent to him in the morning, and he tells them I was a whole time.

00;31;37;14 - 00;31;44;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. How could you do that? But he was. I was standing at the cross of Christ. Right? Yeah. Things weeping.

00;31;44;09 - 00;31;46;20
Murray Dueck
I think he probably even said weeping over my own sins.

00;31;46;20 - 00;32;06;26
Joshua Hoffert
Probably. Probably. Yeah. So so we see right there the picture of the use of the imagination, right? He pictures himself before the cross of Christ and and I mean, you can go. I think it's Pombo who talks about, seeing the Holy Theotokos weeping before the cross of Christ. Right. This is Mary.

00;32;06;26 - 00;32;09;23
Murray Dueck
I think he's weeping. And people are saying, why are you weeping, father?

00;32;09;23 - 00;32;10;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And he says.

00;32;10;11 - 00;32;10;28
Murray Dueck
Standing before.

00;32;10;28 - 00;32;11;26
Joshua Hoffert
The cross.

00;32;11;29 - 00;32;16;17
Murray Dueck
And I'm looking at how Mary weeps, looking at Jesus. Exactly. If I could only weep.

00;32;16;20 - 00;32;17;00
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly.

00;32;17;02 - 00;32;17;11
Murray Dueck
I want to.

00;32;17;11 - 00;32;18;20
Joshua Hoffert
Learn. Yeah.

00;32;18;23 - 00;32;20;24
Murray Dueck
To weep over Christ death like she'd like.

00;32;20;24 - 00;32;35;22
Joshua Hoffert
She did something like that. Yeah, it is something like that. Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure it's Pomo or Pullman. Might be Pullman. Anyway, it's a really beautiful moment, but we see again that imagination at work in, in these moments. Right. Looks like he's got a beautiful thing.

00;32;35;22 - 00;32;40;08
Murray Dueck
Sorry. Puppy intervention there, puppy. And grab the rule. That paper towel. They were able to shred the whole rolls.

00;32;40;08 - 00;32;41;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.

00;32;41;05 - 00;33;01;06
Murray Dueck
You. I'm looking at you, pal. Yeah, I know you're you're cute, but that was bad. So, but, you know, one thing we should add there. Go for it. About, you know, the two doing the deed and the. And the father. The the desert father, you know, how did you how did you put up with that? So I stood before the cross and I wept.

00;33;01;09 - 00;33;07;28
Murray Dueck
Right. I just I mean, just looking. Look what he's doing there. He's using sanctified imagination.

00;33;08;01 - 00;33;08;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;33;08;10 - 00;33;27;08
Murray Dueck
To drive out the sounds and the visuals of those two having sex right in front of them. He's using scripture and he's using the text. That's something that that's holy and using the eyes of his imagination to drive out that picture.

00;33;27;10 - 00;33;28;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;33;28;03 - 00;33;31;10
Murray Dueck
He's using it as a tool. Yeah. Which we want to learn how to do.

00;33;31;12 - 00;33;37;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Which which is the actual use and the usefulness of the imagination.

00;33;37;23 - 00;33;39;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah, exactly. That's right. It's supposed to be.

00;33;39;19 - 00;33;53;07
Joshua Hoffert
For because it is you. You can't be human and not have an imagination. It's it's just it just is. Now you can have the imagination restricted or restrained. You can have it damaged, it hurt. You're in a.

00;33;53;11 - 00;33;58;26
Murray Dueck
And often that happens when we hear things as children. What an active imagination hold of yourself for.

00;33;58;29 - 00;34;19;17
Joshua Hoffert
But but the the the ability because people think in pictures. Yeah so the ability to to for that is always there. And if you know, if we do have the mind of Christ and we are being renewed, it would make sense that God would speak through our imagination. Right. and, and so what we see in the Desert Fathers early church time.

00;34;19;17 - 00;34;43;19
Joshua Hoffert
Right? We see the active use of the imagination and in certain, in certain particular instances. Right. and especially in prayerful practices. and then we also but but okay. But then we don't we see like, you know, we looked at Anthony. Right. And Anthony gives true and false test of a vision. So we see some emerging from that.

00;34;43;19 - 00;35;06;20
Joshua Hoffert
We see some kind of rudimentary teaching on on what constitutes a vision. How do we work through this. But the Desert Fathers are, are way more concerned with, teaching people inner awareness. Yeah. Right. And, the posture.

00;35;06;21 - 00;35;37;03
Murray Dueck
At least in the, in the early Eastern church in particular. But but they are working with the imagination and they are not. Yeah. The Orthodox today. Like if you be shocked and even when you should do this, if you can, go to go to an Orthodox church because you'll be surprised, because, you know, they, they really again, a lot, a lot of, you know, the eastern guys, eastern church, they get up and walk out on this topic like they probably would write their Jesus prayer, inner prayer.

00;35;37;03 - 00;35;51;24
Murray Dueck
You know, we'll get get to that. But if you go to their churches, it's full of icons, pictures of saints all over the walls, pictures of biblical scenes all over the walls. there are crosses and the priests robes and incense. And why are they doing that?

00;35;52;00 - 00;35;53;06
Joshua Hoffert
They're evoking something.

00;35;53;13 - 00;36;01;20
Murray Dueck
They're. Yeah, they're invoking your imagination to to. But to bring it over to Scripture and holy things.

00;36;01;21 - 00;36;02;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;36;02;03 - 00;36;22;06
Murray Dueck
And and and like if you look at it like an icon, for example, you'll see that the eyes are quite large and the ears and the mouth is very small. And it's supposed to tell you talk less, listen more. Right. You know, there's in the midst of all of these things, there's there's biblical story and testimony and, and and the use of that.

00;36;22;08 - 00;36;32;12
Murray Dueck
So and it's so different than our culture where it's, you know, it's kind of in my Mennonite church, you'd have a wooden cross, that's it. You know, you wouldn't have even stained glass windows.

00;36;32;14 - 00;36;32;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;36;32;24 - 00;36;33;24
Murray Dueck
You know.

00;36;33;27 - 00;36;59;09
Joshua Hoffert
Well, yeah. Because the, the evangelical church lives in the realm of the mind. And that's not it's not a bad thing. It's just a, it's a both and, you know, it's an intellectual thing which we want intellectual. We want intellectual. That's right. Right. Some of the we don't, but we also want to pair that with deep, deep well of spiritual sustenance that we encounter the Holy Spirit in a way that we bring.

00;36;59;10 - 00;37;00;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And we won't change.

00;37;00;24 - 00;37;25;20
Murray Dueck
Everything God's created about us to to to worship him and sing every part of us. So and and again. So I was just going to say maybe one last thoughts. Thank you for what you just said, because it brought me back to the thought I forgot, which is, you know, the early church did a lot of work on training the imagination and bringing it over to the things of the gospel and the things of the cross by using it in, in art.

00;37;25;21 - 00;37;26;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yeah.

00;37;26;11 - 00;37;36;00
Murray Dueck
And incense and and all that to train all the senses to, to glorify Jesus. Let all within me, right. Praise his name.

00;37;36;03 - 00;37;50;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Right. So you, you, you look that's over. So you do see the use of the imagination in the early church. You you see less on direct teaching on how to use the imagination, but you.

00;37;50;24 - 00;37;54;07
Murray Dueck
Start to really pop up in the Western church in particular.

00;37;54;07 - 00;37;54;25
Joshua Hoffert
It does.

00;37;54;25 - 00;37;56;22
Murray Dueck
And so where it will end up there eventually.

00;37;56;22 - 00;38;25;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And that's and that's where well, that's where we're going. We're, we're talking about the, the you know, we talked about the Ignatian exercises and those will be vivid use of the imagination, the Ignatian exercises. and and then we wanted to get to a little bit of, Teresa of Avila and John of the cross today as kind of the, the in a way, the culmination of, or codification of some of the use of the imagination.

00;38;25;13 - 00;38;44;19
Joshua Hoffert
And it's not we're not we weren't we're not saying with John or Teresa that we agree with everything they say. yeah. You know, I don't even agree with everything I say. I find I listen to I yeah, I, it's funny, I was editing a video from a couple of years.

00;38;44;19 - 00;38;45;29
Murray Dueck
Ago or me or myself.

00;38;46;00 - 00;38;59;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, well, I was getting a video from a couple of years ago, and I was listening to myself talk because Aaron and I were doing a thing together in the video, and I was like, I don't even agree with myself in the right. So I don't even I don't even agree with myself anymore. So. So when I say that.

00;39;00;04 - 00;39;02;16
Murray Dueck
I always like to use Benny Hinn as an example for.

00;39;02;16 - 00;39;03;16
Joshua Hoffert
This, because, yeah, when I.

00;39;03;17 - 00;39;16;25
Murray Dueck
When I was a young punk, I went to one of his meetings and man, like like he picked me out. I brought my Mennonite friends. I was in my Mennonite Bible school and, and and so we went this about 1989 problem.

00;39;16;26 - 00;39;17;10
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Right.

00;39;17;14 - 00;39;30;09
Murray Dueck
And I'm praying, oh, God, I should I go in the ministry? Should I, should I not? What should I do? I need a word, you know, and he's coming up the aisle. There's about 300 people there and everybody touches is going down under the power of God is like, bam, bam, bam. And I'm about six, seven people in.

00;39;30;09 - 00;39;45;24
Murray Dueck
Right. And my Mennonite friend might they they've never seen anyone raise their hands, let alone right. And he grabs one of them and he just about pooped his pants, let's just say. Right. And he and he keeps going by and I go, God, I need a word. And he comes back and he points at me, goes, you, you gonna come out here?

00;39;45;24 - 00;39;58;23
Murray Dueck
And he drags me into the aisle. He goes, and he puts a mike in front of me and he goes, what do you want from God? And I go, I want the anointing, because that's why he's talking about it, because you, you and your friends come up on stage. So he drags us all up by midnight. Fred's right, you know, they're good at.

00;39;58;23 - 00;40;02;28
Murray Dueck
Yes, sir. Yes, sir. They're going to say yes. Right. But they all go up like they're going to the guillotine. They got their heads up.

00;40;02;29 - 00;40;04;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right, right like.

00;40;04;05 - 00;40;20;20
Murray Dueck
This up on stage. And he goes to the crowd. You think God will do it for him? Yeah. And he just waves his hand and usually about six feet away. Seven feet away. And the power God just drops. Most expand out that about Bob. You know. And and ever since that time I pray for people down they go ever since that time.

00;40;20;23 - 00;40;25;22
Murray Dueck
But you know what? I don't have a stretch limousine. I don't wear white shirts with with no car.

00;40;25;22 - 00;40;26;18
Joshua Hoffert
Not yet.

00;40;26;21 - 00;40;30;24
Murray Dueck
Not yet. I don't have a little God theology, which Benny and repented of that, actually.

00;40;30;25 - 00;40;32;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;40;32;16 - 00;40;34;05
Murray Dueck
and you know, I don't I don't want.

00;40;34;05 - 00;40;38;01
Joshua Hoffert
To take some more nuance anyway, because Irenaeus basically said as much.

00;40;38;08 - 00;40;40;27
Murray Dueck
yeah, dogs beget dogs. God. Because that's what I mean.

00;40;40;27 - 00;40;42;22
Joshua Hoffert
Benny Hinn yeah, yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

00;40;42;22 - 00;40;56;15
Murray Dueck
I mean, that's where it is, right? Yeah. God became man. So man could become God, so. Oh yeah, it's BS. Yeah. So anyway, what I'm saying is would I go see Benny Hinn again? You betcha. What? I get him to pray for me if I don't. You for sure. Yeah. Am I going to buy all this theology?

00;40;56;20 - 00;40;58;01
Joshua Hoffert
No, no.

00;40;58;04 - 00;40;59;29
Murray Dueck
You got to take the meat and spit out the boat.

00;41;00;02 - 00;41;00;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;41;00;17 - 00;41;08;13
Murray Dueck
And and even with the stuff that we teach or the Desert Fathers, I mean, I love the Orthodox Church, but I don't want to grow a beard down on my toes. And I don't want to wear a man dress.

00;41;08;13 - 00;41;19;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right. That's just how it is, right? Right? Right, right. Yeah. That's fair. So that's the talk. Yeah. That's always the we always have to put that disclaimer out as well.

00;41;19;24 - 00;41;20;13
Murray Dueck
It's good that we.

00;41;20;17 - 00;41;38;00
Joshua Hoffert
We don't agree with everybody and we don't even agree. Well that's the point. We don't agree with everybody. We don't even agree with ourselves. So we're we are more interested. I Mary and I were talking about this earlier. We're more interested. We're less interested in teaching you how to think and more interested in teaching you what? Giving you things to think about.

00;41;38;03 - 00;41;41;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. So that you that you would come to your own conclusions.

00;41;41;21 - 00;41;44;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You can work through all the same stuff like yeah, we're trying to do.

00;41;44;26 - 00;42;14;06
Joshua Hoffert
So we present things that we've found helpful. So John of the cross, he, he talks about the, the use of the imagination. And he compares it to a when a man is trying to work out a concept, he basically reasons within himself. Right? So you can think of it as when you're trying to, work something out. You are it's almost like you have two voices within yourself talking.

00;42;14;06 - 00;42;28;19
Joshua Hoffert
Right? And so you're like, well, you know, is it this or is it this? What do I do? you know, even just think about going to have lunch, right? You kind of have an inner argument, really. Right? An inner dialog with yourself.

00;42;28;19 - 00;42;30;13
Murray Dueck
I go to the gym today, or I lay in the couch.

00;42;30;13 - 00;43;07;19
Joshua Hoffert
I don't know if I want to go to the gym, right? It's like two voices, right? So he he's, he's talking about how people reason within themselves. And he says and the it's it's totally within reason to believe the Holy Spirit would come in and would actively engage with that reasoning and could be the other that you reason with, and that because of our imperfections, sometimes the way that we, assume the Holy Spirit speaking happens through mental imagery and, and so he said, he says, it's, it's people have these kind of he calls them locutions people have these kind of images, illusions, locutions all the time as a result of the Holy

00;43;07;19 - 00;43;29;29
Joshua Hoffert
Spirit coming to them. And he says, but because of our immaturity and because, that we don't understand how weak we actually are, we assume what they mean and then we're led into error. Right? So so, you know, he's giving a in one sense, he's giving a robust defense for the imagination, but he's also giving a robust defense for, the.

00;43;29;29 - 00;43;31;13
Murray Dueck
Brokenness of mankind.

00;43;31;13 - 00;44;00;10
Joshua Hoffert
And so exactly, exactly. And and so you see this kind of thread in the, in some of the great Catholic mystics going, yeah, the imaginations there, but it's pretty dangerous. Yeah, the imagination is there, but it's pretty dangerous. So Theresa talks about Theresa being a, contemporary of John of the cross. She talks about and I mean, like her the interior castle's her book of the Sixers, The Seven Mansions.

00;44;00;10 - 00;44;23;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right. In her book. I think it's seven. Right. I think it's seven. I don't remember. Anyway, it's been a while. So in her, in interior castles, she talks all about the use of visions. In her autobiography, she talks about a number of visions that she has. Right? And she actually even talks about going to her confessor, talking through the visions.

00;44;23;12 - 00;44;42;04
Joshua Hoffert
And her confessor tells her that's the devil, right? And she's and she's going, how is that the devil? Right. And then her. And then she finds out that her confessor told other people about it, and then other people in the community start talking about her, and they're convinced that she's being led astray by these visions that she's been having.

00;44;42;08 - 00;45;02;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And and then she actually says she goes to them and she says, look, you know, I won't go through the whole thing because it's actually a long passage. But she basically says that, okay, if you think the devil is the one doing this, why is my why has he taken away my advice? Why am I why am I living a life of virtue?

00;45;02;06 - 00;45;20;22
Joshua Hoffert
Then why am I being perfected? If it's the devil, it defeats his purpose. It's a great it's a great argument. Right? So I'm actually finally growing past my sinful state. How could it be the devil? Because it would defeat what his ultimate end was. And so they go, yeah, okay. You're right. Right.

00;45;20;26 - 00;45;29;13
Murray Dueck
So then what she's talking about there everybody is, picturing and using our imaginations with Scripture and sacred things.

00;45;29;13 - 00;45;31;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. And so she you.

00;45;31;00 - 00;45;33;14
Murray Dueck
Might want to give that example of the mirror. That was pretty cool. Yeah.

00;45;33;14 - 00;45;33;26
Joshua Hoffert
So. Oh, yeah.

00;45;34;01 - 00;45;37;00
Murray Dueck
Yes. That's what you wait right there. Yeah. You're so prophetic. You can.

00;45;37;00 - 00;46;00;21
Joshua Hoffert
Go there. Yeah. So she recounts a, a series of visions that she has and, and so she's, she kind of recounts, there's she has visions she recounts of actually being in hell, being tortured. Oh, okay. And so these these are some of the visions she talks about, but she also recounts these visions that she has where, she sees Jesus in herself.

00;46;00;21 - 00;46;32;09
Joshua Hoffert
So I'll just read one passage because this is going to give us some context for how we're to approach these things, and we're going to come full circle in the sense of prophetic ministry. And then Marie's going to, offer some, exercise activation stuff. So Teresa says this in her in The Life of Teresa. So this autobiography, she wrote it about herself on one occasion was when I was reciting the hours with the community, my soul suddenly became recollected and seemed to me to become bright all over, like a mirror.

00;46;32;12 - 00;46;51;12
Joshua Hoffert
No part of it back, sides, top or bottom, but was completely bright. And in the center of it was a picture of Christ our Lord. As I generally see him, I seem to see him in every part of my soul, as clearly as in a mirror and this mirror. I cannot explain how was holy sculptured in the same Lord by a most loving communication, which I shall never be able to describe.

00;46;51;15 - 00;47;10;21
Joshua Hoffert
This, I know, was a vision which, whenever I recall it, and especially after communion, is always of great profit to me. It was explained to me that when a soul is in mortal sin, this mirror is covered with a thick mist and remains darkened so that the Lord cannot be pictured or seen in it, though he was always present with us, and gives us, and gives us our being with heretics.

00;47;10;21 - 00;47;27;06
Joshua Hoffert
It's as if the mirror were broken, which is much worse than being dimmed. Seeing this is very different from describing it, for cannot be properly explained, but it has helped me a great deal and has also caused me deep regrets at the many occasions when, through my faults, my soul has become darkened and so I have been unable to see the Lord.

00;47;27;13 - 00;47;51;09
Joshua Hoffert
Okay, so Teresa has a vision. The so powerful it really impacts her. And then it lingers with her. And every time she thinks about it, she's caught up back into it. Okay, so this is the Lord has come to her and revealed himself, but it's also the active use of the imagination when she pictures it. And she says, especially after communion, it becomes very so her she is stirred right back to the thing.

00;47;51;11 - 00;48;12;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right? This is one of the things that is talked about in, Yeah, we, we talk about, in, developing capacity in inner healing and in prayer. We talk about five bar moments and, five bar moment is thinking back to a time when you had full reception, right? Five bars of reception when the Lord was near.

00;48;12;29 - 00;48;45;14
Joshua Hoffert
Remember that. Think about it. Reflect fondly about it. Thank the Lord for it. You'll find yourself quickly going back to that place. That's what she's doing here. The right. So it's the use of active imagination in partnership with the Holy Spirit. and that kind of as John said, the reasoning of the Holy Spirit there. Right. So then she goes on to say this right afterwards, this vision seems to me a very beneficial one for recollected persons, a recollected person would be a person on the journey of contemplative recollection.

00;48;45;14 - 00;49;06;24
Joshua Hoffert
Is a, is a practice within contemplative prayer. You're recalling the senses back to yourself so that you can point yourself back to Jesus. So recollection is actually a particular phrase that's used within the, the mystical literature. Augustine I think Augustine might have been the first to codify it. Maybe not the first, but he definitely taught about it.

00;49;06;26 - 00;49;28;10
Joshua Hoffert
So this vision seems to me very beneficial for one, for for recollected persons, for it teaches them to think of the Lord as being in the very innermost part of their soul. This is a meditation which has a lasting effect, and, as I have said on other occasions, is much more fruitful than thinking of him as outside us as certain books do, which treat a prayer telling us where we are to seek God.

00;49;28;13 - 00;49;44;20
Joshua Hoffert
So Teresa is saying, hey, I had this vision. It's been a great benefit to me. I've returned to it many times, and I think it's really beneficial to people that are on the journey that are, that are in a place of maturity. It can be really useful for them to think of themselves in the same way and meditate on Jesus inside of them.

00;49;44;20 - 00;50;13;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right now, the flip side of that is that Teresa also writes in the, in, the in not in the maybe not in the, it's in the interior castles. Yeah. In the interior castle. She writes this, she says, I think it's in the interior castles. Anyway, she writes it. She says, why? Individuals, this is summing up why individuals should not wish for these kind of visions.

00;50;14;00 - 00;50;14;19
Murray Dueck

00;50;14;21 - 00;50;40;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So she says this first, it's it shows a lack of humility to to demand what you have not earned. So why should you not look for visions? It shows a lack of humility. Humility to demand what you've not earned. Second, a soul in desire is in great danger of being deceived. Okay? Third, where there is great desire, the imagination itself makes a person think that she sees or hear is what she's longing for.

00;50;40;15 - 00;50;58;10
Joshua Hoffert
Fourth, wouldn't it be presumptuous of me to try and choose my own path? What do I know? Fifth, do you think the trials suffered by the souls to whom God grants these visions are light ones? No. They are massive and manifold.

00;50;58;13 - 00;51;00;20
Murray Dueck
well spoken like I like somebody who's been there.

00;51;00;20 - 00;51;13;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Sixth, you may discover that the very thing you hoped would bring you bounty brings only privation. Like when Saul lost everything by becoming king. so she gets.

00;51;13;24 - 00;51;16;04
Murray Dueck
There's. These are points. We should almost do an episode.

00;51;16;04 - 00;51;37;01
Joshua Hoffert
And I know it's probably true. Right. So six points as to why you shouldn't seek visions. So which is it? Right. Because she goes recollected. Persons should meditate on this. This vision has been greatly beneficial to me. But here's why you shouldn't. Why and what's I think the thrust you find in John, the thrust you find in Theresa is, is, is essentially this.

00;51;37;01 - 00;52;14;02
Joshua Hoffert
And this is where the commentary comes to rest home for our contemporary, contemporary, picture of, you know, the church and ministry is, if the desire is to know the Lord more deeply and to recover yourself in him, great. If the desire is to be known is to have prophetic revelation, is to be able to predict events, is to build the ministry, is to have something to post on social media to run right.

00;52;14;02 - 00;52;42;27
Joshua Hoffert
And I and Theresa and John, both of them, have being spiritual directors in their own, in their own right and heavyweights at that point. They're both called doctors in the Catholic Church, and there's not that many doctors in the Catholic Church. These are upper echelon of, heavyweights and especially in their age, very influential as well. and John was a director for, for Teresa as well.

00;52;42;29 - 00;52;55;03
Joshua Hoffert
that they're talking about the amount of times they've seen people who sought after revelation because they had a want and because they had a desire, because.

00;52;55;03 - 00;52;56;16
Murray Dueck
It was all about self.

00;52;56;17 - 00;53;27;22
Joshua Hoffert
Because it was all about self, rather than seeking the Lord. And seeing him infuse the imagination with his presence, the eyes of the heart being enlightened because of the pursuit. And now when I look inward, I see him. There's a big difference between desiring revelation and desiring God. And I think this is the crux of the matter when it comes to these, when we talk about sanctified imagination, is the imagination just sanctified because it's sanctified?

00;53;27;22 - 00;53;56;29
Joshua Hoffert
Well, we have the mind of Christ, but we must be renewed in the spirit of our mind. So which is it? Well, it's both, and it's not either or. So there is. Absolutely there is a, a significa place for the use of imagination. But there's also things that we have to understand to buttress the practice of it. Because if we don't understand those things, it's very easy to use it to build ourselves rather than use it to know the father.

00;53;57;01 - 00;54;17;16
Joshua Hoffert
And there and therein lies the crux of it. And I think, Marie, it might be helpful. with that said, to share the story you told me before we went live, about the, the, the person you knew that would give prophetic words. And they were always, like, judgy. And then they encountered God. Oh, yeah, that one.

00;54;17;16 - 00;54;25;08
Joshua Hoffert
And then lead us, maybe lead us in what would constitute a, you know, a an exercise that uses the imagination.

00;54;25;10 - 00;54;41;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Okay. yeah. So good story. So everyone, you know, we teach this in class how to how to, sanctified imagination because it's, you know, maybe I'll throw in a couple one quote here from, maybe it's a good spot. It's it's, from Evelyn Underhill.

00;54;41;25 - 00;54;42;26
Joshua Hoffert
Wrote a classic.

00;54;42;26 - 00;55;06;09
Murray Dueck
Book, 1905 1910 on on mysticism, on the mystic. And so, and this story is very much this quote. so presently the subject of meditation becomes to take on a new significance, to glow with life and light. So, you know, you're picturing a Bible story. You you're sitting there with Jesus in the boat. You are, walking with the disciples on the road to Emmaus.

00;55;06;11 - 00;55;31;16
Murray Dueck
The contemplative suddenly feels that he knows it in the complete, vital, but indescribable way in which one knows a friend more through it. Hints are coming to of mightier, nameless things. It ceases to be a picture, and becomes a window through which the mystic appears out into the spiritual universe and apprehends to some extent, though, how he knows not the veritable presence of God.

00;55;31;18 - 00;55;46;21
Murray Dueck
So, in other words, you know you're doing your part, but the Holy Spirit's also there doing his part, right? You know, you're you have the paint brushes some people like to say, and you're you're painting the picture. And then the Holy Spirit pinks picks up that brush and paints his picture.

00;55;46;26 - 00;55;47;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;55;47;05 - 00;56;17;03
Murray Dueck
But there's a there's a partnership. There's koinonia going on here. Right. So, so as an example of that, I'm doing a class and one year I have this particular lady there and, you know, she was a, I believe, airline stewardess at one point and then became, police dispatcher for that RCMP and, big r, big police organization and so pretty, you know, and she was both all these people, you know, pretty good looking gal, pretty tough, tough person.

00;56;17;05 - 00;56;37;26
Murray Dueck
And she came from a very good faith persuasion. So she could prophesy and she could hear. But it was kind of always from the bent of. And the Jesus says, you pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get out there. And so and you know, you, you know, it's a year long class. And how many times you want someone giving you that word in this tone of voice all the time, right?

00;56;37;28 - 00;56;56;06
Murray Dueck
So by the end of first year, there wasn't anybody she hadn't defended. And, I hope she doesn't hear this, but it turns out really well. She does a really good. So it's a good story. And, so in the end, I was just sneakily only having her pray for class helpers because I didn't want her to know.

00;56;56;06 - 00;57;13;28
Murray Dueck
Nobody in class wanted her to pray for them anymore. Right. And I and I was just dreading her coming back in year two because, you know, you get into deeper material and people are practicing in small groups more. And how is that going to work? So year two, she comes back and we happened to be in the sanctuary this one day.

00;57;13;28 - 00;57;30;14
Murray Dueck
And I'm like, what are we going to do here? And it just so happened that, for some reason, that verse in, in revelation went through. Oh, and I should just say we're in the sanctuary. She's brought her daughter along, and you're not supposed to because you got to sign waivers. It's not safe. It affects your insurance.

00;57;30;21 - 00;57;48;17
Murray Dueck
So not a good thing. And I'm like, there's nothing I can do. So I'm like, okay, you know, take your daughter Sunday school rooms down the hallway and and just it's way down the hallway. So, you know, her daughter has no idea what's going on in the sanctuary. She's just kind of go color. Okay, so church is locked.

00;57;48;17 - 00;57;53;22
Murray Dueck
It's okay. Right? Church is locked. Even now. I don't know if I would permit that even now, but anyway.

00;57;53;25 - 00;57;57;27
Joshua Hoffert
So you were a kinder, gentler man back. Yes.

00;57;58;00 - 00;58;16;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Now it maybe my insurance is being voided. Here's what's happening. So. Right. But anyway. So her daughter's way down the hall, we can't hear what's going on. It doesn't know. and I said, you know, everyone, I just think today we should we should just ponder John in revelation, just looking at that pearly gate. So, you know, I'm setting it up right now.

00;58;16;12 - 00;58;24;28
Murray Dueck
I don't usually do that, but I, you know, in worship, I kind of look, you know, what's the Lord showing you? I like that better. But for some reason I did that.

00;58;24;29 - 00;58;33;17
Joshua Hoffert
I think, by the way, it's perfectly legitimate to encourage someone to picture scripture and let it permeate their worship time. So yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00;58;33;17 - 00;58;36;22
Murray Dueck
And so I mean, that's basically Evelyn Underhill quote.

00;58;36;24 - 00;58;37;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;58;37;02 - 00;58;54;26
Murray Dueck
Right. It becomes a window. It starts as a picture, but it becomes a window into something bigger. And and so we started with a window and so worships over to go everybody. What did you see the year two class. You know what did you see. Let's talk. And and she puts up her hand I'm like oh no why're you know why.

00;58;54;26 - 00;59;14;23
Murray Dueck
First class of the year. Just oh I saw, I saw the pearly gate and I saw the spires of the city. And there's an angel up by the spire and, and and but you know something weird. There's a man in this plain white clothes standing beside the gate. I don't understand who he was. I'm like, that's important. You know, when you go to the Lord adds a little piece that you don't understand.

00;59;14;23 - 00;59;33;28
Murray Dueck
That's important. That's true. I'm like, okay, okay. Would you is it okay now she's pretty bold. So that was a wonderful thing about her. She didn't mind being a class example. Right. Okay. Let's let's work this out. But let's pretend we're going to picture it up front because people can see in your head. Just picture it up front here where if you did, where is the gate?

00;59;33;28 - 00;59;47;16
Murray Dueck
Where is the spire? Where is the wall? Where is the man? Oh, it's right here. This is how it would be. You know, over here would be the spire. There's an angel up there. Here's a wall, here's Pearly Gate. Here's that man in a white robe. Okay, let's walk over there to. I can't. So I'm going to let's just walk over there.

00;59;47;16 - 01;00;09;03
Murray Dueck
Let's just walk. You picture it up okay. Can't do it. Can't do. Doesn't know why. Can't do. Well, let's ask Jesus to walk with us. Okay? I can do it. So we're walking over to that man and she goes, oh, it's the father. And she falls down and starts to go, Holy, holy, holy God, Almighty, Holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty.

01;00;09;06 - 01;00;32;03
Murray Dueck
But I'm thinking he's wearing a plain white robe. What's that all about? Now, if he's sitting on the throne, it glowing with light. And sure, that would make sense. But remember, she heard faith background. You know, she's never. She doesn't get this father thing right. Doesn't get it. So I'm thinking, like, why don't you ask him why, if it's a father, why is he showing up like that in this plain white robe?

01;00;32;03 - 01;00;58;13
Murray Dueck
And she gasp and goes, He wants to be my friend first time ever through it becomes revelation through the window, right? That ain't her. She's never had the ability to think of God in that way. Greater, mightier things are happening, right? So she and she's crying now. She's oh my goodness, that's who God wants to be, you know, how can you give a word to somebody about the loving heart of God if you can't see him there yourself?

01;00;58;13 - 01;00;58;15
Murray Dueck
Right?

01;00;58;16 - 01;00;59;15
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;00;59;17 - 01;01;20;00
Murray Dueck
So her daughter now again, remember she has been in the Sunday school room. She comes out and she goes, mom, look what I drew. Here is the wall of the city. Here's the pearly gate. Look, mom, there's a spire with an angel up there. And by the pearly gates is a man leaning on the wall. And her mom's like, I just saw this in the worship.

01;01;20;02 - 01;01;46;02
Murray Dueck
The exact same image. Yeah. Now, how much of that was your imagination? That. Right? Right. Because it's a partnership. And then this other lady in class. Maybe I should just say because it's a bit personal information. Sure. I should just say that she goes, I saw you, I saw this lady, I saw you, and I saw you handing something to the father and or to Jesus and saying, I surrender this to you.

01;01;46;06 - 01;01;55;23
Murray Dueck
And she just starts to weep, going, nobody knows that. Nobody knows that. So this other person in her picture of the city also had a revelation about this lady. That was.

01;01;55;27 - 01;01;56;06
Joshua Hoffert
It.

01;01;56;08 - 01;02;21;13
Murray Dueck
Was greater. So the thing is, is it just you? Yeah. Is it just the Lord? Yeah. It's both right. It's sanctified imagination. It's it's a partnership. It's. Yeah. So. And yeah, it's just do you see that all the time. Like that's not a one off story. It's favorite because her daughter of course had no idea. Right. But you know you see these things and then you want to test it with Scripture and fruit.

01;02;21;13 - 01;02;24;19
Murray Dueck
And in her witness and confirmation it it off others of course.

01;02;24;24 - 01;02;51;23
Joshua Hoffert
And this is where we'll get into, you know, we'll end the episode with Mary leading us through, Scripture, activation meditation or just, just to see in, in real time how this might play out. But yeah, I just want to say, before we get there, that because there's, there are, there's people where the people listening where the concept would be new to them.

01;02;51;29 - 01;03;48;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right. and, and then they hear the word vision and they immediately are conjured up all the, all the crazy, charismatic prophecy stuff. Right. and so I just want to say, by way of it, again, commenting on the current, the current state of prophetic ministry, just so people know where we stand in that sense, in a, in a general sense look, if if you are having a vision every day or even every week or even every month, I would say with some prophetic, this is happening in this nation, this is happening here, you know, this, this kind of stuff because these, these kind of, these kind of YouTube shows and channels and

01;03;48;17 - 01;04;03;01
Joshua Hoffert
all are wildly popular today. If you have a vision every day, week or month with this great prophetic meaning, you probably have no intimacy with the Holy Spirit.

01;04;03;03 - 01;04;04;17
Murray Dueck
Or,

01;04;04;20 - 01;04;29;18
Joshua Hoffert
Because you have no time. The whole point that we're trying to make is that the the use of the imagination in the examples that we've given draw people into a place of encounter and intimacy. It's not a place of prophetic revelation that can happen, but it's not why it's there.

01;04;29;21 - 01;04;30;12
Murray Dueck
Not the point.

01;04;30;13 - 01;05;00;04
Joshua Hoffert
It's not the point. The point is intimacy. That's until transformation, which is what Teresa says, right? Like, I can't, I can't not, I can't give these things no credit because they've changed me. Not now. Now I have great revelation. I can go tell everybody about it. So if you come across someone's YouTube channel and they've got a new video every single day, and that video is another prophetic revelation about some vision, they were caught up into the heavenlies.

01;05;00;06 - 01;05;21;20
Joshua Hoffert
Or if they're going live every week and they're saying, I had this vision, I had this vision, I had this vision. You can pretty quickly assume they don't actually know the Lord. Okay. Yeah, you really can make that assumption, because if they're having that many visions, they don't actually know him. There's no space in their mind for his presence.

01;05;21;22 - 01;05;40;28
Joshua Hoffert
So they may even, you know, get 25% of it, right? 50% of it right, 75% of it right. It doesn't matter. I don't want to listen to that person, and I don't and I want I would counsel other people to be very cautious with listening to that person, because then all of a sudden it starts to fill your mind, the eyes of your heart.

01;05;41;01 - 01;05;57;22
Joshua Hoffert
This is what enters your lexicon. This is the kind of imagery you start meditating on. These are the kind of things you start seeing, and pretty soon you're drawn away from that place of I see Christ and His power in my heart, his glory in my heart, his inheritance in my heart, and his, calling in my heart.

01;05;57;24 - 01;06;18;21
Joshua Hoffert
And now all of a sudden, I start to see the nation in my heart, the great call of the nation. Right? I start to make a God out of my national identity. And that's what resides within. And so, you know, we just want to assure I'm people, people that are following us, that are in the prophetic, you know, the prophetic community.

01;06;18;24 - 01;06;24;15
Joshua Hoffert
So we really can be really cautious about who you give your attention to in that sense. Yeah.

01;06;24;16 - 01;06;31;26
Murray Dueck
Let me add a piece there too, if you don't mind. You know, when you read revelations 1911, the the test.

01;06;31;28 - 01;06;32;20
Joshua Hoffert
The 10th.

01;06;32;20 - 01;06;49;15
Murray Dueck
Spirit of promises, the testimony. Oh, thank you. Is is the testimony of Jesus. Spirit of prophecy is a testimony of Jesus. Right. Because some of you are like, well, wait a minute. The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. Like so. Okay, now let's take let's just stop for a second. Let's break down what's a testimony? What's a testimony?

01;06;49;17 - 01;06;56;15
Murray Dueck
So a testimony if I was going to tell you my testimony aka voices from the desert session one.

01;06;56;19 - 01;06;57;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

01;06;58;01 - 01;07;11;05
Murray Dueck
It would be about how God has healed me and touch me and and and same for you. You know, if we hear somebody's testimony, what is it about? It's about the great things God has done and is revealed to us. His character, his nature, his kindness is patience. It's healing.

01;07;11;10 - 01;07;11;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

01;07;11;18 - 01;07;21;10
Murray Dueck
A testimony is about the character and nature of Christ. So if prophecy is Jesus's testimony, it has to be telling you about the nature and character of Christ.

01;07;21;15 - 01;07;22;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

01;07;22;01 - 01;07;30;07
Murray Dueck
And if it doesn't do that, if it's about the end times, if it's not, if it's missing the aspect of the nature of Christ, it's not.

01;07;30;07 - 01;07;31;13
Joshua Hoffert
Prophecy. Yeah.

01;07;31;15 - 01;07;39;26
Murray Dueck
Straight up. Yeah, it might be part of it, but but remember, Lord, Lord, we heal the sick and raise the dead. Depart for me. I never knew you, right? Right.

01;07;39;29 - 01;07;42;02
Joshua Hoffert
We prophesied in your name. They say.

01;07;42;05 - 01;07;42;22
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah.

01;07;42;28 - 01;07;43;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;07;43;09 - 01;08;02;01
Murray Dueck
Yeah, it does say that. So it's. I mean, it could be just immaturity. I mean, it doesn't necessarily. These people are we're not saying they're the Antichrist, but you know, there people go to grow up. I mean, I am quite embarrassed about some of the stuff I taught about about revival and the generation of the righteous kind of things back in like 96.

01;08;02;03 - 01;08;03;09
Murray Dueck
But I wish I could.

01;08;03;13 - 01;08;04;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Sure.

01;08;04;08 - 01;08;17;02
Murray Dueck
You know. Well, so but at the same time, we can't take everything is like, wow, this person had this revelation. So therefore now they must be the most intimate person with God on earth. So I should follow them, right? No, that's not what that means. Point.

01;08;17;04 - 01;08;39;05
Joshua Hoffert
Point, in fact, present presently that one of the things that kind of took over the even, like I think CNN ran with this was the the prophecy that was made about Trump's assassination. A bullet whizzed by his ear versus eardrum. Trump falls on his knees and gets up. You know, in that same space of time, he gets a, you know, on fire for Jesus.

01;08;39;05 - 01;09;07;19
Joshua Hoffert
Right? And and people. Yeah. Well, Lord willing, that is true. That'd be amazing, right? Yeah. And and that's what people have been praying for for years and years with Trump and and so okay, you know, let's just we just look at that for a second, right. Like hey that looks like a pretty accurate prophecy. And now one is if you go check that the guy who said that if you go check his, YouTube video feed, he's got a prophecy every day and 99% of them don't come to pass.

01;09;07;22 - 01;09;26;21
Joshua Hoffert
So there's not a significant track record. This doesn't mean I by the way, I think the guy I don't know the guy at all, but I'm I'm going to favorably say the guy is saved. The guy is passionate about Jesus, and the guy has a call and a gift. I would be very confident and comfortable saying those things.

01;09;26;23 - 01;09;47;16
Joshua Hoffert
Now, how we've trained ourselves, in the sense of what we give ourselves to that that impacts what we say and what we see and all that. So my point is just looking at the that particular prophecy, because what he says, things like the there'll be a great return of national pride, the economy is going to collapse, Patriots are going to rise up over the nation.

01;09;47;16 - 01;10;03;26
Joshua Hoffert
Trump's going to be elected. All these are these are all the the kind of the major points of his prophecy. There'll be an assassination attempt. Trump will get elected. the economy is going to collapse. Trump will help it recover. There's be a great movement of national pride. Patriots are going to raise up the Christian the nations and turn back to Jesus.

01;10;03;26 - 01;10;26;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right? So not not one part of the whole prophecy talks about the nature of Jesus. None of it, not one part of it. Right. And so it may be accurate in the facts of what's predicted, but that doesn't make it prophecy. It just makes it an accurate prediction. Right. There's people that accurately predict the stock market. That doesn't make it prophecy.

01;10;26;28 - 01;10;51;15
Joshua Hoffert
It doesn't. It's just you can read the political landscape because you filled yourself with political commentary, and you can make general assumptions about what's going to happen. That doesn't make a prophecy. Prophecy. As Marie said, I'll pin this one right on. Marie. Yeah, prophecy, as Marie said, is revealing the nature of Christ. It may reveal the future, but that's not its primary purpose.

01;10;51;17 - 01;11;01;24
Joshua Hoffert
Its primary purpose is revealing the nature of Jesus. And and that's. And that any kind of vision, any, anything should be pointing back to that. And that's what I think.

01;11;01;25 - 01;11;22;25
Murray Dueck
And then you can use your relationship and your exact element of that to test revelation. Okay. Wait a minute. Hey, let's read this through. Because yeah, in my church culture originally where I came up, you would, you know, back to episode one, everybody. Seriously, that's it's very important to to listen to that. But you would prophesy over somebody, you get a word of knowledge.

01;11;22;25 - 01;11;32;08
Murray Dueck
Easy to do. You know, all the time I do it all the time. But you would end the prophetic word usually with, and you're going to the nations or Lord is.

01;11;32;08 - 01;11;38;16
Joshua Hoffert
Called you do right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. Or a hamburger, a hamburger helper. We started calling it.

01;11;38;19 - 01;12;01;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You're you're going to get breakthrough. It's about breakthrough. And people get that all the time. Now when you don't understand anything about division of soul and spirit, you don't understand anything about rest. You don't understand anything about seasons of life. You don't understand anything about the desert. You don't understand. You know you're prophesying out of your knowledge base, and then you're taking your church culture and you're, well, that's what everyone else prophesies.

01;12;01;21 - 01;12;07;14
Murray Dueck
And everyone I know in my culture who I respect prophesies that. So therefore it just happens.

01;12;07;15 - 01;12;09;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Just comes out.

01;12;09;04 - 01;12;32;25
Murray Dueck
So the word of knowledge is completely accurate, and the rest of it is just unfortunately fluff that that isn't right at all. And, and we don't realize that we're getting a lot of stuff through our lens of our soul, our mind, will and emotions that if that affects what we hear. Right? So parts of it can be really accurate and then a lot of it can be really, really off and we go, well that part was right.

01;12;32;25 - 01;12;41;18
Murray Dueck
So therefore the rest of it must be right. You know, it doesn't work that way. Does you need to test with scripture and fruit and, and or witness and confirmation and bounce it off.

01;12;41;21 - 01;12;42;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;12;42;16 - 01;12;45;17
Murray Dueck
And I missed one, but yeah.

01;12;45;19 - 01;12;54;05
Joshua Hoffert
Well, you know, I think we're probably going to have to delay the exercise until the next episode again.

01;12;54;07 - 01;13;05;20
Murray Dueck
Well, that's okay, because we should probably two do two, one going into Scripture and then to kind of, you know, making it conversational.

01;13;05;23 - 01;13;07;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. But that's good. Yeah.

01;13;07;02 - 01;13;26;10
Murray Dueck
But with that, maybe I'll say a couple other things to then just because, we have the time and it's important everyone again to realize kind of where we end, we're ending here today, as you know, it says in Ephesians one, right. I pray God would give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation that you would know the end time events.

01;13;26;12 - 01;13;45;15
Murray Dueck
No, it does not say that. So you can have personal breakthrough. No, just say that it says so that you may know the glorious father, right? Right. Or as Jesus says in the Beatitudes, I pray that the eyes of your heart would open. So imagine and heart. Why, that you would see God.

01;13;45;19 - 01;13;46;21
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right.

01;13;46;22 - 01;14;03;00
Murray Dueck
That that, you know, that's the point. And then in the midst of it, like, like they used to say about the FBI, I don't know if it's true. I'm sure we've said this before. They don't teach them to handle funny money, the fake money, they just handle the real thing so much that when their hand touches the fake bill, they know.

01;14;03;00 - 01;14;03;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;14;03;26 - 01;14;23;26
Murray Dueck
And the idea is when you sanctify your imagination, you get the gloom off of your heart. You take the mirror of your soul and you focus it on Christ. You begin to transform. You become to look like him. You breathe like him, you act like him. And then when you touch something that's real, you know? But when something's mixed, you go something about that's not quite right.

01;14;23;29 - 01;15;01;07
Murray Dueck
Right. And, and the idea is you want to do that with your imagination to that part of your being. So when you're, believe it or not, you're watching the news, you're watching all this stuff and you're seeing it and something hits you as wrong. You want that part of you that pictures not just your favorite vacation or about what your bank account should be, that it's so trained to look at Jesus, right, that when it sees something that's partially right, it, you know, for solid food is for the mature who by constant use have learned to discern.

01;15;01;07 - 01;15;01;19
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;15;01;20 - 01;15;02;01
Murray Dueck
Good and.

01;15;02;01 - 01;15;02;25
Joshua Hoffert
Evil. That's right.

01;15;02;25 - 01;15;03;24
Murray Dueck
Constant use.

01;15;03;29 - 01;15;04;13
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;15;04;13 - 01;15;11;08
Murray Dueck
And and you want to just learn to do that. And that's why activations like this are, are so very important by constant use.

01;15;11;15 - 01;15;11;29
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;15;11;29 - 01;15;16;29
Murray Dueck
And, and but it's constant use in bridal intimacy.

01;15;17;00 - 01;15;17;12
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;15;17;12 - 01;15;23;07
Murray Dueck
That's that's it goes back to that it constant use about being transformed into the image of Christ.

01;15;23;12 - 01;15;23;24
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;15;23;25 - 01;15;42;10
Murray Dueck
And and you know, I remember hearing one spiritual director who's a Catholic, I don't know him, I just read this article, but it hit me. It's so true because I experienced this, because I do, you know, spiritual attraction with people. And and he was really frustrated because when he was meeting with evangelicals, they just wanted breakthrough. They always wanted breakthrough with breakthrough.

01;15;42;10 - 01;16;02;11
Murray Dueck
Right. And and so the person he's talking to you goes, well, you need to understand in the charismatic mindset, they're thinking they want to be like Paul Saul on the horse who gets knocked off by the power of God, right, and has this life changing moment. That's what they want, right? But it's more like the disciples are walking on the road to a mass.

01;16;02;14 - 01;16;24;02
Murray Dueck
They're walking with Christ. Their hearts are burning. They're not paying attention. The guy doesn't understand Ed, but Christ is there in the midst. And and to learn how to find Christ in the midst instead of trying to escape the midst all the time. Right. And and use God. Get me out of this instead of Lord, how do I become like you in the midst of it?

01;16;24;02 - 01;16;24;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

01;16;25;01 - 01;16;25;22
Murray Dueck
Right.

01;16;25;24 - 01;16;27;14
Joshua Hoffert
So there is the quote. Yeah, that's.

01;16;27;14 - 01;16;44;26
Murray Dueck
Right. And just that way of, of, of, I mean got Jesus wanted to get out of the cross everybody. And Paul wanted to take this sword from me. Right. So I praying that's not bad. But when everything is about escaping reality, instead of meeting Jesus in the midst of it, you're using the eyes of your heart, right?

01;16;44;27 - 01;16;46;10
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right.

01;16;46;11 - 01;16;48;14
Murray Dueck
And and that alone is a big problem.

01;16;48;16 - 01;16;48;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;16;48;27 - 01;16;52;22
Murray Dueck
When we're talking about your paradigm and belief system. That's right. Right.

01;16;52;24 - 01;17;09;23
Joshua Hoffert
And anyway and that's and that's. Yeah. No that's good. That and that, that'll set the stage for next week when we dive into some of the, exercises. So and we can get right into them. So with that said, well, let's just, we'll say thanks everybody, for, putting up with us.

01;17;09;25 - 01;17;12;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Got on the horse in the end there. Oh that's good.

01;17;12;18 - 01;17;16;18
Joshua Hoffert
We like we like your high horse mare. It's good. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

01;17;16;18 - 01;17;18;07
Murray Dueck
That's good. You can fall off of it. Really.

01;17;18;07 - 01;17;30;28
Joshua Hoffert
What's. Right. So. Well, we hope that, this episode was, beneficial to you and kind of help to explain how the imagination might play a play, might play a part in your spiritual journey.

01;17;30;28 - 01;17;45;06
Murray Dueck
And, you know what? I'm going to recommend a book. Not one of mine. Just if you want to dig around on this a bit more. Yeah. You know, somebody sent it to me and said, Samuel's mantle is a lot like this book. I'm like, really? And it's a Catholic book. The Jesuit guide to almost everything.

01;17;45;06 - 01;17;50;08
Joshua Hoffert
There you go. And we can we can put a link to that in the show notes.

01;17;50;11 - 01;18;10;04
Murray Dueck
And again, take the meat, spit out the bones. But it's good to step out of your church culture and go, okay, now how did these guys see? Right. They're charismatic too, right? How did how did they see it? And sometimes we don't understand that. Sometimes our culture is a little bit mixed. And it's good to step out and go, wait a minute.

01;18;10;04 - 01;18;11;25
Murray Dueck
Not everybody sees it this way.

01;18;11;29 - 01;18;12;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;18;12;12 - 01;18;29;24
Murray Dueck
It's it's really healthy. That's right. And so I'd really recommend that book everybody I think it's very good. I again got to take the meat, spit out the bones. But as far as these activations are in there, examine like said Divina and and sanctified imagination and I and I really, really enjoyed it. So there you.

01;18;29;24 - 01;18;35;24
Joshua Hoffert
Go. Very good. We'll put a link in the show descriptions as always. Maria, it's amazing to spend time with you. Very fun my.

01;18;35;24 - 01;18;38;06
Murray Dueck
Friends. Oh thank you. And you do.

01;18;38;08 - 01;18;41;20
Joshua Hoffert
Will be back next week okay. Thank you. Thank you.

01;18;41;20 - 01;18;42;29
Murray Dueck
Everybody.

01;18;43;01 - 01;18;44;19
Joshua Hoffert
Till next time.

01;18;44;22 - 01;18;47;03
Murray Dueck
Remember to highlight coyote cheese mushrooms.

01;18;47;09 - 01;18;56;06
Murray Dueck
There you go.

01;18;56;08 - 01;18;56;15
Murray Dueck
You.

People on this episode

Joshua Hoffert

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Murray Dueck

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