Voices from the Desert
Voices from the Desert
Practices That Point the Mind to the Present and the Empty Abyss of the Heart
All of our practices are pointed towards the end of turning the inner gaze towards the heart to discover the Father within. What happens when a culture adopts practices that turn the gaze inward but all they find is an empty abyss? Join Josh and Murray as they talk about training the thoughts to discover the beauty of God and lead a prayerful exercise walking through Scripture.
For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
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Murray Dueck
Exactly where are you pointing? Your ability to feel. And at.
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Joshua Hoffert
What? You're looking in the abyss and you found no answer. There's no. We've talked about this with the news, right? It will be pointed to something. Yes. And the eyes of the heart will be in dark, in the red light. And if there and darkens, what they see is frightening. So I was looking at it. What makes a lot of sense, actually, people are seeing things that we never have.
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Murray Dueck
And so it starts to slow down, which is a bad guy to speak.
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Joshua Hoffert
You. Welcome, everybody, to another episode of voices.
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Murray Dueck
From.
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Joshua Hoffert
The desert. Desert, desert. Oh oh.
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Murray Dueck
Maybe so. Yeah, I am. Every time I hear Tusken Raiders in mind.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah that's right, that's right.
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Murray Dueck
Why didn't I set this up? I didn't remember what you were called until like, last week. Yeah, yeah it's generators.
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Joshua Hoffert
All right. So actually I was thinking about the Tusken Raiders because I was.
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Murray Dueck
There a desert.
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Joshua Hoffert
There was a, the, the latest trailer from the new Rings of Power, which is.
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Murray Dueck
Oh.
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Joshua Hoffert
you know, that's Amazon's Lord of the rings, right? It's anathema to any floor to the rings fan. That's it's just that it's fan fiction. It's not really Lord of the rings. So but but the one of the scenes has, a series of characters that basically look like Tusken Raiders. They've got their own thing. And so I, I saw that scene and someone commented and said, what are these?
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Joshua Hoffert
Why do these masks remind me of? And I went, oh, it's Tusken Raiders, obviously. And I was thinking of you with that. Right.
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Murray Dueck
Oh very.
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Joshua Hoffert
Thank you. Yeah. That's that's say and speaking of what we think about right.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah. Oh, speaking of, what we think about.
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Joshua Hoffert
How he's thinking of your thought life, right? It's, you know, it is actually quite amazing how how, like, if you've ever thought about this, when you spend, if you spend 30s by yourself with your thoughts, one of the first things I think you have to come to grips with is that you don't have very good control over your thoughts.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yes, right. It's the mind, right? You don't tell the mind to wander, right? The mind wanders right. You. You don't tell it what to think about. Like how many times have you told it, what to think about, and then it thinks about something else.
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Murray Dueck
Oh my goodness.
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Joshua Hoffert
Right.
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Murray Dueck
You know what I read somewhere, I mean, and this is why everybody the Jesus prayer, which we're going to get to. Yeah. At the Oros Saint Augustine would call an arrow prayer, a prayer of.
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Joshua Hoffert
Oh yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah.
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Murray Dueck
Jesus or or but because of the mind wander, you know, they say with elephants is that with their trunks? If they're always poking around like they'll put their trunk in your pocket looking for peanuts or do it all this stuff. But if you give them a stick to hold, they'll just stand there very calmly. Just hold the stick, you know?
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Murray Dueck
And the mind needs that. It needs something, at least something to hold on to. Otherwise it's just wandering everywhere.
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Joshua Hoffert
It really does. Yeah. Well, and as evidenced by I'm, I'm looking at this that's my point is looking at this trailer, thinking about Tusken Raiders, connecting it with my friend and thinking about our episode. I'm now yeah, I've now I'm now not even present.
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Murray Dueck
Five layers deep.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah that's right I'm basically in the past.
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Murray Dueck
Future us.
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Joshua Hoffert
Right. I'm well I'm in the past in the future and not even in the present with the video that.
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Murray Dueck
I'm used to it. Brother. It's okay. I accept you as you are.
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Joshua Hoffert
Well that's good. Yeah. The actually, this is one of my contentions with prophetic people is prophetic people. As you know, we've had a lot of experience training prophetic people. and, you know, for our for our reformed listeners, that might be a bit of a stretch to think of training prophetic people.
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Murray Dueck
But yes.
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Joshua Hoffert
You know, it's it's it's teaching people how they should actually live their life. It's less teaching people how to prophesy and more.
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Murray Dueck
So it all year we just been taught not to.
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Joshua Hoffert
And. Yeah. What what do you. Yeah. So it's a lot of it is discipleship. So anyway, but but that's for people in general. Yeah. That's a squirrel that we're following people in general listening to say, prophetic people. People in general tend to live in the past or the future. Yes. Right there. Get they get stuck in the painful memories of the past and they can't get past them, or they get stuck only thinking about the future and they fail to live in the present.
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Joshua Hoffert
And, and this is where a lot of the, the, exercises we're talking about actually do have to anchor you in the reality of the moment. Yeah. Which can be very difficult to live in the present. I, you know, I actually read an article recently and this was fascinating for, and it had to do with, yoga and meditative practices.
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Murray Dueck
Oh, interesting.
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Joshua Hoffert
Okay.
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Murray Dueck
I think.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. No, it was interesting listening. Yeah. That's right. like, for the record, I'm. I am not a advocate, for yoga. There's a lot of reasons for that. it's a eastern spiritual practice. If we're going to do eastern spiritual practices, we might as well incorporate the Orthodox Church and not the, Hindu practices. So. Right.
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Joshua Hoffert
We get the actual Christian East, right? Not that. Right. Okay. Makes a lot more sense to me, which would be Jesus prayer. Anyway, the studies were showing that, that yoga and I, I don't have the article on hand, so I don't know the numbers or anything, but, yoga is not actually producing as much mental health as it's, purported to.
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Joshua Hoffert
And people are are going through these meditative practices in yoga and they are find heightened anxiety, more depression mean.
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Murray Dueck
I heard about this.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
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Murray Dueck
Not yeah. There's like you're heightening their ability to feel. But what are you feeling exactly. Where are you pointing your ability to feel and at what?
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Joshua Hoffert
Or you're looking in the abyss and you've found no answer, right? You're looking in the abyss and you've found no answer. There's no. We've talked about this with the news, right? It will be pointed to something.
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Murray Dueck
Yes.
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Joshua Hoffert
And, the eyes of the heart will be in darkened or enlightened. And if they're in darkened, what they see is going to be pretty frightening. And so I was looking at it goes, well, it makes a lot of sense, actually. People are seeing things that they never had to look at before. And going.
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Murray Dueck
To your stuff.
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Joshua Hoffert
That's terrifying. Slow down.
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Murray Dueck
Which isn't bad if you've got somebody by the name of Jesus to go to you.
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Joshua Hoffert
Not exactly. Yeah, exactly. But if you don't, can, what do you do? That's it. With the father or not? Yeah, right. Do I have.
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Murray Dueck
You're describing the effects of the fall. Fall in man is broken. Yeah, yeah, right. Which we should be transformed, right, by the renewing of your mind. But now you need someone to help you with that. And that ain't you.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. No, you're a you're a bad you're you're not good company for yourself.
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Murray Dueck
Yes. Oh isn't that a good thing.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You need now you need outside accompaniment, which would be the Holy Spirit, right. Yeah. And so I was thinking about that. Yeah. It's like. Yeah, of course. So what we're talking about is practices that point the mind to the present, but not being present with your own broken fallenness. Yeah, but being present with the father, being present with Jesus, being actively engaged with him and the imagination is a great tool for that.
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Joshua Hoffert
and I've just have two quotes that, well, that I want to read from the if for those of you that are watching on video, the average attendance this is a fantastic set. By the way, you ever get on video?
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Murray Dueck
I did not even know that four.
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Joshua Hoffert
Of them I yeah, we put them on YouTube a few weeks later. Now, the, the, mercy I've been doing that for, by the way, I do all the editing, so. Yeah. Yeah.
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Murray Dueck
Well, thanks for letting me know. I'm sure they got here.
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Joshua Hoffert
Okay, so let me know that I thought I did. So, Murray, if there's some information for you.
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Murray Dueck
Well, I always say goodbye to vegetation. It's going to particular places right now, so.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, well, I made sure to edit out all the parts where you're picking your nose and you.
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Murray Dueck
Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. Yes.
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Joshua Hoffert
Sorry. The average Totino's is getting back to our topic of conversation.
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Murray Dueck
it's a pretty burden bearing out there right now. They don't. Yeah, well, you're the thought that way.
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Joshua Hoffert
The thought process went something like this. It was like we've been putting it. We put the well, the. You remember how we talked about Google changing up all the podcast stuff?
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Murray Dueck
Yes.
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Joshua Hoffert
And so I was like, oh, I might as well. We got the videos. I might as well just put them on YouTube now too. So.
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Murray Dueck
Well it makes sense right. Yeah.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah. So so welcome to our post videos.
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Murray Dueck
Anyway.
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Joshua Hoffert
So welcome to our business. Welcome to our business meeting. Right. This is Mary and I discussing the topic of the of the podcast.
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Murray Dueck
Hey Jake, guess what I just found out. Yeah, he posted these things as videos on YouTube, but I didn't know.
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Joshua Hoffert
Only for a few months, not for years.
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Murray Dueck
Hold on. What's that? No, though Josh is.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.
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Murray Dueck
Anyway, it's so funny.
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Joshua Hoffert
That's awesome.
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Murray Dueck
You so posted our videos like these,
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Joshua Hoffert
Ever Totino's. Okay. You can. Okay. Average video videos for volume set writings of the Desert Fathers. And, you can find them.
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Murray Dueck
Josh gave me. I said for free, everybody. That's good. Yeah, that's the kind of guy is right there.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
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Murray Dueck
Just, just a redeem.
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Joshua Hoffert
I actually have a I have to say, it's.
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Murray Dueck
Not that big of a deal.
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Joshua Hoffert
I have two sets, and I let. I think someone's borrowed one of the sets.
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Murray Dueck
Oh, that's no good.
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Joshua Hoffert
No. Never mind. I have both the sets here. Yeah I do, you can actually see the set right behind me right there.
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Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah.
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Joshua Hoffert
One of the center for Traditional Orthodox Studies. You can find them CTOs. You can find them. Great, great. If you want to dive deeper into the Desert Fathers, it's a fantastic book set. Yeah. anyway, there's two quotes that were that are, germane to our topic today. not germane to the, idea of videos happening on YouTube, but, yeah, to the idea we're.
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Murray Dueck
Talking about sanctified imagination.
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Joshua Hoffert
Videos in the mind, right? Videos in the mind. So, you know, they're we've kept it on track. Yeah. all the Fiona's said it is because our mind withdraws from the inward vision of God that we are taken captive by carnal passions.
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Murray Dueck
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Joshua Hoffert
So and then and then I'll say this one as well. it's I know this is an anonymous, saying from the Desert Fathers. so we're talking, fourth, fourth, fifth century in their an elder said, whether you lie down to sleep or wake up or whatever else you may do. I like how they do that, whatever else you may do.
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Murray Dueck
So really, if.
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Joshua Hoffert
You keep God before your eyes continually, the enemy will never be able to make you afraid. for as long as this thought remains in your soul, so also does God's strength remain with you.
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Murray Dueck
Oh. Very nice.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yes. So what we're talking about when we talk about the active imagination and some of these exercises that Mary's going to, paint out for you in just a second is the the ongoing training of keeping the mind keeping on on one level, the eyes of the heart. Right. But also on another level, the, the the sensory perception, because we're training our thoughts a rational thought life to be pointed towards the beauty of God, which in turn permeates deeper and deeper into who we are.
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Joshua Hoffert
So we're talking about, practical exercises to practice those principles. So the the inner person is constantly looking at Jesus, not living in the future, not living in the past, but being present with Jesus and, living from a place of connection in union with him. And so we all, we all falter amazingly at that. but it's also our aim and our goal that when we look inward, we see him not an empty abyss.
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Joshua Hoffert
and if we see the empty abyss, what's the the words of softening, I think, was a softening or so on. When we see the empty abyss, we take a few steps back and have a cup of tea.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah, right. I'll over to the edge. Look down. Yeah. Three steps back and have tea.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. There's I think it's it's Ceylon who says keep your mind in hell and despair.
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Murray Dueck
Not that's. Yeah. Tough saying that. I worked out not a long time to figure that out, but in essence, everybody. The idea is, is that, you know, Paul the Apostle, he's he starts out equal to the most eminent of apostles. He says, and the ends with, I am the chief of sinners. And you know, when you when you walk at like my house right now, I think it looks pretty clean, considering I have two puppies who who are not figuring it out quite yet.
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Murray Dueck
But you know what? If I turned up these lights and I put in 1000 watt light bulbs? This place would be disgusting. There's no.
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Joshua Hoffert
Right. Right, right. You know, every imperfection.
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Murray Dueck
You'd see, you'd see it all. And. Yeah. And, you know, the thing is, as we get closer to the Lord and and it's not that we're becoming greater sinners, it's that when the light gets brighter, you see a whole lot more of what's going on inside of you.
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Joshua Hoffert
Which is, which is makes it even more important that the inward thought is turned towards him. Because of the inward thought is turned towards those things. We're cognizant of them. Right. I think father Mike said in one of our, in one of the episodes we did with him, or maybe he said beforehand, that a child doesn't recognize its growth.
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Joshua Hoffert
a child only recognizes it's outgrown its clothes.
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Murray Dueck
Yes.
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Joshua Hoffert
Right. I thought that was brilliant. And so we don't recognize look how holy I am. But we recognize I no longer fit this pattern. And so I can see the pattern, and I stand it, and I go, this isn't this. I can. So I see the sinfulness in that sense. Right? But my eyes, the inward eye of my heart, is focused on him.
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Joshua Hoffert
That's the goal, right? So that I'm progressing and becoming more like him. So the thousand watt light bulb shows me more imperfections. But I see the light.
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Murray Dueck
That's right.
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Joshua Hoffert
And I'm looking at the light. I'm not looking at the imperfections though. I am aware of them.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah. Exactly. Right. So yeah, you do see you as you as you know, you walk and you do these disciplines. You know, you do experience things about yourself that you're like, oh boy, you know, and I mean, I don't need to do these disciplines, experience stuff about myself. Just give me the car keys and the traffic jam. Look what comes up.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Murray, you've shared that story before.
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Murray Dueck
Yeah. So, you know, but it's interesting that in the midst of life, we discover this wonderful, loving, talking, breathing, personal, emotional person named Jesus Christ who wants to introduce us to his father. Well, this is in the midst of life, right? Which is shocking, right? That's Christianity right there.
00;16;02;11 - 00;16;27;10
Joshua Hoffert
This is one of the the hesitancy that I have with the the spiritual formation crowd and all the advice to go on retreat and spend time in silence and solitude and all this not bad advice. I'm not saying it is, but it has to be buttressed with that idea that when you go on a retreat, you're going to see something you don't like, right?
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Joshua Hoffert
The the Desert Fathers and every contemplative actually withdrew from society to fight their inner demons. Yeah. Didn't withdraw from society to escape society and somehow now find peace because there was no more turmoil around them. They discovered the inner turmoil.
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Murray Dueck
There's a great story that, and you guys, I've mentioned it before, but you should listen to them. They're great. The, Father Ernestine bird.
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Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's right.
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Murray Dueck
Is it Steenberg? I think it is on mysticism. And you can find it at YouTube, Faith radio, but you type it in on Google and he tells a story when he was in seminary, he you got to write finally on the Desert Fathers. And he was so excited because and he's and he says he wrote something and they go into the desert and they're fine, quiet and watch the sunset over the silent.
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Murray Dueck
That's the silent land that is is set. Professor goes. Balderdash. What a pile of hooey. Yeah, they went out there to battle, to withdraw. The desert is in a read, you know, and it's about discovering this inner inner stuff. And we don't realize that. That in our culture, we're so well medicated by by music and television and stopping at Starbucks, or in our case, Tim Hortons or, and we're always, you know, medicating all the time and, and, you know, people to call videos to watch, you know, we can do control.
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Murray Dueck
But when you what what happens if we remove all of those things? What happens if we remove them all?
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Joshua Hoffert
People tend to get turned upside. Yeah. People tend to get terrified as as we as people are finding with some of these, contemplative practices.
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Murray Dueck
And what comes up is, is your thought life gets pretty loud. Yeah. Because you can't distract it. And and the problem is, well, what's that rooted in. Well that's right to be healed. That's right. That's what the Desert Fathers are doing. Like the soul is broken because of the fall, and it needs to be healed. And you don't ignore it.
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Murray Dueck
You bring it into the presence of Christ.
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Joshua Hoffert
That's right. What are you.
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Murray Dueck
Doing? Activations like this? Yeah. You allow the presence of God to start to fill your imagination. You allow the presence of God to fill your thought life. You allow the presence of God. That's right. Your emotions and and and it starts to turn. And I you know, there's a quote I just heard recently that and, that, the Desert Fathers, I guess, would say a lot that quantity begets quality.
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Murray Dueck
And, and the idea is to, you know, you may suck at praying. Just keep doing it. That's water dripping on a rock that that I, I'm familiar with that one, that a rock is way harder than water. But if that water keeps dripping, it's got a hollow that rock out eventually.
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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.
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Murray Dueck
And just practicing starts to over time, you know, like like Josh said about outgrowing your clothes, you're not really aware of it. It just kind of happens. Like, when did that happen? And but when you practice these things over and over again, these, these ruts that maybe we grew up in childhood or wounding that happened to us or just, you know, different personality types have different strengths and weaknesses.
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Murray Dueck
You begin to see this formation of Christ, that our our thinking is going more and more back to our time with the Lord or what's in Scripture or.
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Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
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Murray Dueck
You know, and it just that there's this transformation, right? We with unveiled faces behold his glory. That's right. And and these, you know, these practices, you know, let's you domina the examined which I really like, the Jesus prayer, which is kind of my go to which we'll get to eventually. and, you know, today's sanctified imagination, remembering everybody.
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Murray Dueck
We did two episodes talking about it. We just haven't done it yet. But but it's but what we're talking about really now we're back to the oasis, right? Purgation. Illumination, deification. That there's the. We need to understand that inside of us there's some brokenness and and and not ignore it and go. Yeah, you know what? I need to meet Christ.
00;20;21;24 - 00;20;43;03
Murray Dueck
I need to change. And, you know, even even our Christian culture can very easily, you know, how many people go to a conference on suffering? Nobody. Right. It's in the Bible a lot. But let's not talk about it. Right. Let's talk about breakthrough and fighting and and, not a lot.
00;20;43;03 - 00;20;45;26
Joshua Hoffert
Of people are going to those conferences either nowadays, so.
00;20;46;03 - 00;20;48;23
Murray Dueck
Oh, no, they yell out.
00;20;48;25 - 00;20;54;16
Joshua Hoffert
No, no, no, it's it's the conference. Attendance as a whole is a lot lower than it ever was before.
00;20;54;16 - 00;20;55;07
Murray Dueck
So is.
00;20;55;07 - 00;20;56;22
Joshua Hoffert
It. It's it is.
00;20;56;26 - 00;21;13;12
Murray Dueck
We just need to talk about political takeover then battle for everything. You know what? If we get our guy in suddenly right. Anyway. Sorry, everybody. But again, you see, we're thinking outward change is is what's needed. No it's not, it's actually inward change.
00;21;13;19 - 00;21;42;02
Joshua Hoffert
And that's and that's where the, the active exercises help push us deeper and deeper inward. And so the as the quote from science was the inward vision of God. If you don't if you lose the vision of God, carnal passions run rampant. Right. Well that's it. You can't if if you if your outward if your outward vision is chaos and distracted, your inward vision is going to be even worse.
00;21;42;05 - 00;21;42;24
Murray Dueck
Yes.
00;21;42;25 - 00;21;58;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And so that's interesting as we're taking, you know, these might be active exercises. Right. So we're taking active exercises. And they set the stage for what's happening in the inner man. And that's the daily routine. That's like Mary saying the examine and all that.
00;21;58;07 - 00;22;17;07
Murray Dueck
So you know, one thing we should throw out here too is that everyone and this is this should be an episode on its own. But I think it's worth quoting here is that the Desert Fathers never would assume that you are your thoughts, which we try to do in the West. I am my thoughts. That's me. No, our weapons aren't carnal, but spiritual.
00;22;17;07 - 00;22;28;08
Murray Dueck
Spiritual. I always see it that way. I don't know, I spiritual for that. Pulling down the strongholds. We take every thought captive. You know, the part of us that's taking the captive. That's us. Right?
00;22;28;10 - 00;22;29;09
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
00;22;29;11 - 00;22;48;27
Murray Dueck
And thoughts. You know, the desert fathers, if you look at a case of Jerusalem, you know. But but but they would call this little gizmo. Yeah. Right. So these, these thoughts that come and that one of the reasons we're supposed to guard our heart in our mind. But the peace of God guard your heart. Right. it means the umpire.
00;22;48;29 - 00;23;09;05
Murray Dueck
Right? Or or one of the words of Philippians is guard your heart or your mind. One of those is umpire, you know, is it a ball? Is it a strike one? Is it like the pretorian guard? Don't let thoughts in. Right. Hold them out. And and we just when you assume you are your thoughts that that that's a bit difficult.
00;23;09;07 - 00;23;35;07
Murray Dueck
because we don't really we're big on social media, news, people gossiping, all kinds of stuff. There's thoughts flying around all the time. And, and I, I'm just going to say one little story here. You don't mind. Not especially. I'm on video now and I got something to say. there's a thought right there. So, went through quite a difficult split in my organization.
00;23;35;07 - 00;23;54;18
Murray Dueck
This would be about 2007. And the people that left, God bless them. I still consider them my really, really good friends. I haven't talked to them in a long time, but, you know, went through some beautiful things together. But when they left, you know, he had a she had a cancer scare and he had to real bad work trouble.
00;23;54;25 - 00;24;24;01
Murray Dueck
So I could have defended my position in. A lot better than I did because I just thought, well, I can't look at you, look where they're at. But when they left in my brain for a year, I would just. You're going to see this and I see this and you're going to say this, and I say this, and I would get caught into these inner arguments, and I get quite worked up about it because it was very painful, and I just never felt, you know, I said I should have said what I needed to say, maybe in a, in a nice way.
00;24;24;03 - 00;24;43;12
Murray Dueck
But that went on for like a year. And I do the Jesus Prayer. That's how I would do it. And I remember after a year it getting less and less and less. And then one day I remember I woke up feeling pretty good. I was having a shower just thinking about my day, and then suddenly these thoughts were going on.
00;24;43;12 - 00;25;08;16
Murray Dueck
I'm like, oh, well, that's weird. Why am I thinking about this? And I realized in that moment, you know what? That was at me. That was something intrusive coming from the outside that my mind for once didn't grab a hold of and start to go, yeah, that's right. Let's accuse those people. Right? Right. Instead, I caught it and I was like, wait a minute here.
00;25;08;16 - 00;25;29;21
Murray Dueck
I thought that was just me being bitter. And we have to realize we have an enemy. And the enemy. What does he do? He likes to give us thoughts and, you know, some thoughts or an arrow, don't get me wrong. But, you know, you learn by doing exercises where you you teach your brain to do good things, right?
00;25;29;23 - 00;25;33;13
Murray Dueck
So that when these things show up, you go, now, wait a minute. That's not right.
00;25;33;18 - 00;25;34;00
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
00;25;34;01 - 00;25;53;11
Murray Dueck
That's not full of love. That's right. Where is that coming from? And you catch it at stage one. That's right. Right. So stage one thought comes so. So again, this is just, you know, teaching of the father's, stage one thought. So let's say there's a bag of money laying there or let's say the pastor doesn't talk to you for three weeks walking away.
00;25;53;14 - 00;26;00;24
Murray Dueck
Right? Or we can make it worse. And you could go, oh, I could use that money. But no, I'm not going to take that bag or of.
00;26;00;27 - 00;26;03;24
Joshua Hoffert
Sour cream and sour cream and bacon chips.
00;26;03;27 - 00;26;04;21
Murray Dueck
Oh yeah.
00;26;04;24 - 00;26;05;16
Joshua Hoffert
They're right there.
00;26;05;16 - 00;26;06;20
Murray Dueck
I like some of those.
00;26;06;22 - 00;26;10;12
Joshua Hoffert
All right. That's what that's what's in front of you. And yeah I have a thought.
00;26;10;15 - 00;26;22;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So yeah you'll notice with that if you like those. So stage two of an attack there's something called coupling. And that's when you take the, thought of the enemy and you start to merge it with your own imagination.
00;26;23;02 - 00;26;27;13
Joshua Hoffert
I would like sour cream and bacon. I would they sound really good.
00;26;27;13 - 00;26;29;12
Murray Dueck
Don't know. What that money.
00;26;29;15 - 00;26;32;27
Joshua Hoffert
They're not mine. But I bet you that person won't miss them.
00;26;33;00 - 00;26;50;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah. That pastor, he's talking to everybody else for three weeks. Talk to me, and then your emotions get kicked. It? Yeah. Your libido, your anger, and then at that stage, you could still say no. Still tougher. It goes to the next thing you actually act out on that set. You take that bag of chips and you eat them, right.
00;26;50;15 - 00;27;14;04
Murray Dueck
Sharing them with your wife or your puppies or, or you steal that money or and then the next stage, it's a ritual. Right? So the idea is that that these patterns that we all have them all day, just go driving traffic. See how you do. learning to stay at peace, keep the soul connected. The Holy Spirit use apart parts of you God has given.
00;27;14;04 - 00;27;48;27
Murray Dueck
Use your voice to sing. You know, use your, your body to raise your hands and then use your imagination to picture. Right, train it, bring it to the throne, and, learn to shut that door. Let the peace of God. Right? That's right. So and then with that, one of the reasons the gospels were written was not only that we could read about it, but we could understand how Jesus wept, how Jesus was with people, how Jesus was slept.
00;27;48;27 - 00;28;10;06
Murray Dueck
I mean, when we picture Jesus sleeping in the boat, we we think about that parable. And Jesus was in the boat sleeping. I mean, do we not all picture Jesus sleeping in that boat, right? I'm sure that we do. Right. It's it's it's written out in this way so we could understand the humanity of Christ. Right? Right. Not just his theology and and and also his power.
00;28;10;06 - 00;28;27;05
Murray Dueck
I mean, when you see him walking on the water. Oh my goodness, that that episode in the Chosen. I'm sorry if any of you have seen that episode yet, but just just watch the last episode of season three. That's it. Just watch that, see if you can get that out of your head. You know, that was pretty cool.
00;28;27;08 - 00;28;29;22
Murray Dueck
Well, sorry, I got a bit of it right there. No.
00;28;29;22 - 00;28;47;20
Joshua Hoffert
That's good. It's because we are ultimately talking about dealing with the thought life and yeah, that is that is the question people have. And it was actually one of the questions that people would come to the Desert Fathers and they would say, how do I deal with the Lord Jesus? And because they had a context for this. Yeah.
00;28;47;23 - 00;28;50;10
Joshua Hoffert
You don't have a context for this, right? How do I deal with these?
00;28;50;10 - 00;29;00;16
Murray Dueck
And so when we're meditating all the time, we just how do I do this? Intrusive thoughts I go watch the Olympics in France. How about France and, you know, or whatever. I mean, which is a good thing to do.
00;29;00;18 - 00;29;11;15
Joshua Hoffert
And you're and in the, in the West, we do have this idea that you're the some composite of your thoughts because I think, therefore I am that therefore I that's the linchpin in is, René Descartes. Descartes.
00;29;11;18 - 00;29;12;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah. I said his name.
00;29;13;01 - 00;29;13;25
Joshua Hoffert
Rene.
00;29;13;28 - 00;29;16;16
Murray Dueck
Minute ago.
00;29;16;19 - 00;29;17;25
Joshua Hoffert
Descartes. Right? Yeah.
00;29;17;26 - 00;29;18;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;29;18;14 - 00;29;19;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.
00;29;19;06 - 00;29;28;03
Murray Dueck
I could spell it. I just can't say it. I that's like George Bush. President George Bush once said, those French, they can't even spell the word entrepreneur.
00;29;28;06 - 00;29;31;17
Joshua Hoffert
All right,
00;29;31;19 - 00;29;33;20
Murray Dueck
That's it. Yeah. I mean, that's what it is.
00;29;33;20 - 00;29;40;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. I, I the, I think before or I think therefore I am is a linchpin of Western civilization. Right. And so.
00;29;40;12 - 00;29;40;25
Murray Dueck
There.
00;29;40;28 - 00;29;55;10
Joshua Hoffert
Are my identity is in my thoughts. And, and then the, the devil has a field day with that. So then we have intrusive thoughts, and we think every temptation that I think about defines me.
00;29;55;12 - 00;29;58;03
Murray Dueck
Or even accusation. What a loser or accusation.
00;29;58;03 - 00;29;58;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Yeah.
00;29;58;23 - 00;30;03;03
Murray Dueck
And that and we think, why am I beating myself up so bad if you're not well.
00;30;03;03 - 00;30;03;14
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe you're.
00;30;03;14 - 00;30;04;23
Murray Dueck
Not somebody.
00;30;04;23 - 00;30;12;02
Joshua Hoffert
Else. So how do I deal with intrusive thoughts? And and this is what I think this is what you're trying to say or what you are saying.
00;30;12;03 - 00;30;13;12
Murray Dueck
I'm glad some of these journey.
00;30;13;14 - 00;30;28;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Because that is you don't find victory in your thought life in the moment of the intrusive thought. You find it in the daily rhythm of exercises of prayer.
00;30;28;21 - 00;30;30;14
Murray Dueck
That is what I'm trying to say. Yeah.
00;30;30;17 - 00;30;47;02
Joshua Hoffert
And so the the exercise, you have a couple exercises that you found very helpful, meditating on Scripture and seeing yourself in there. There's another form of lectio divina. Yeah. And and so why don't we move into that. Let's do is we've been promising people for a while that we're, we.
00;30;47;02 - 00;30;54;09
Murray Dueck
Keep talking about it and we got into and we really everybody we need to do an episode couple. There's always more than one episode on. Yeah.
00;30;54;11 - 00;30;57;11
Joshua Hoffert
There's always something to say. There is always something to say.
00;30;57;12 - 00;30;59;09
Murray Dueck
You know, we're done for today. We're not talking.
00;30;59;12 - 00;31;05;05
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. There's there's always something to say on this whole topic, because people, fathers, they're.
00;31;05;05 - 00;31;05;14
Murray Dueck
God.
00;31;05;18 - 00;31;10;17
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right, that's septic. Yeah. Neptune. Yes.
00;31;10;18 - 00;31;11;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah.
00;31;11;02 - 00;31;16;14
Joshua Hoffert
All all having to do with you know, they're all revolving around the word news.
00;31;16;16 - 00;31;19;18
Murray Dueck
So that's great. Yeah. That's right. It is. Back to that word again.
00;31;19;24 - 00;31;21;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. The mind.
00;31;21;09 - 00;31;22;08
Murray Dueck
And everybody that's.
00;31;22;09 - 00;31;24;13
Joshua Hoffert
It is like how do I deal with my mind.
00;31;24;15 - 00;31;25;01
Murray Dueck
By the way.
00;31;25;01 - 00;31;29;19
Joshua Hoffert
Like you realize right. Just just as another side note as you're getting we're going to get into this is.
00;31;29;21 - 00;31;30;09
Murray Dueck
I'm ready for.
00;31;30;12 - 00;31;50;21
Joshua Hoffert
The, the counseling slash psychology industry, multi-billion dollar industry is based on people dealing with the mind. They can't come to grips with their thought life. Yeah. And they pay people tens of thousands of dollars to try and come to grips with their thought life. This is what we're talking about. And what we're saying.
00;31;50;26 - 00;31;52;08
Murray Dueck
Is that massive industry.
00;31;52;10 - 00;31;54;09
Joshua Hoffert
There's a massive industry. And we're saying, actually.
00;31;54;09 - 00;31;55;20
Murray Dueck
I want a part of that action.
00;31;55;26 - 00;31;57;23
Joshua Hoffert
The fathers provide.
00;31;57;25 - 00;32;00;10
Murray Dueck
Did I see the same theory?
00;32;00;13 - 00;32;29;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that was a little gizmo. The fathers provide a method of understanding and a way of practicing, that actually can be really helpful in recapturing your thought life and helping bring a calmness to your thought life. And yeah, and the contemplative authors, even moving past the Desert Fathers right into the contemplative authors and then finding exercises to try and train the way that your brain actually thinks is what is what, we're going to offer a couple of those exercises now.
00;32;29;23 - 00;32;58;01
Murray Dueck
So and, you know, maybe just one quick little thought is that everybody, you know, you'll have your favorite. Like, as a spiritually sensitive person, I, you know, the Jesus for works for me. I that's my gift mix for those of you you know that you're you're intellectually based, right? Lectio Divina Divina will be good or spiritual reading, just, you know, reading your favorite authors, like, you know, I think having people who are giants in the faith and, and reading them, like C.S. Lewis, for example, or I think you.
00;32;58;02 - 00;33;18;12
Murray Dueck
Right. Or, for those who picture there is people who, you know, or those of us who who don't as clearly people, there are people who automatically picture as clearly as, you know, me sitting in this room looking at my puppies down there and that that's another part of a second. Be trained and we can grow in anything.
00;33;18;12 - 00;33;36;26
Murray Dueck
You can grow any aspect of your being by by practice, right. By use and but but you realize everybody. So you have a favorite right. You probably have a favorite and but but let's try this one. So you have another tool in your belt. You you know, whatever tool works use it. But sometimes you go to change tools, right?
00;33;36;26 - 00;33;41;12
Murray Dueck
A little bit right now.
00;33;41;15 - 00;33;58;01
Murray Dueck
I will just read these two quotes here super quick because I have them on my page. One of them I read just a little bit of background of how, again, the, you know, the Contemplatives one, the Saint Bernard one would be Saint Bernard, do you think? What year. What are we talking, 12. 12th century.
00;33;58;04 - 00;34;01;15
Joshua Hoffert
I think 12th century, 13th century. So more so.
00;34;01;17 - 00;34;23;25
Murray Dueck
I would say so this is, you know, pretty old, like why your lips pronounce the words of the rosary. So everybody don't freak out about that. Just remember that 95% of people back then were illiterate. They did not have the Bible to read. What they did was memorize the gospel story. Right? So every one of those beads represents a gospel story and you put yourself in it.
00;34;23;25 - 00;34;51;15
Murray Dueck
So while your lips pronounce, the words let your mind picture the mystery. Each of the 15 gospel stories, not an event which took place centuries ago, but as events taking place now in your presence in each mental picture. Thus form see yourself there in the scene, studying the scene so you know, that's you know, that's very old, you know, hey guys, this is how you do it.
00;34;51;18 - 00;35;21;07
Murray Dueck
Or and as you do that, this kind of happens. And I, I quoted Evelyn Underhill, this is from a very classic book called mysticism came about 1910. she was a real great writer on the Desert Fathers and, and such. And here's what Evelyn Underhill wrote, and just, you know, keeping in mind what Bernard there said, presently the subjective meditation begins to take on a new significance to glow with life and light.
00;35;21;09 - 00;35;46;12
Murray Dueck
The contemplative suddenly feels he knows it in the complete, vital but indescribable way in which one knows a friend more through it. Hints are coming of mightier, nameless things. It ceases to be a picture and becomes a window through which the mystic appears out into the spiritual universe, and apprehends to some extent to how he knows not the veritable presence of God.
00;35;46;14 - 00;36;04;29
Murray Dueck
So, you know, that's kind of what they would say about an activity, any activation, but in particular this right here. And so. So in other words, you know, God's going to speak in the midst of this to, you know, it's you stepping in if I want to play guitar, if I want to worship, I get a guitar out, I strum it.
00;36;05;02 - 00;36;31;26
Murray Dueck
If I want to pray for who's healing, I reach my hand out. If I want to teach, I open my Bible. If I want to step into revelation, I open the eyes of my heart right? And and then. But the Lord steps in doesn't. It's a partnership. It's koinonia. It's fellowship back and forth. So everybody, let's play. So I'm going to do a couple passages and then kind of one the Samuel's mantle way how we would do it.
00;36;31;28 - 00;36;54;28
Murray Dueck
And just so you know, we were doing this in Samuel Matthew Way before I had any idea about the church teaching on, on any of these things because I'm not a Catholic, so I had no idea. But I found it interesting. But that that's a story for another day. So guys, we're going to do, Matthew 21. So if you have your Bibles, if you want to, you can just listen and close your eyes.
00;36;55;01 - 00;37;20;04
Murray Dueck
That's great. If you're more of a word person, you could probably pause this and go get your Bible and drag it out, but we're going to do Matthew 21 about the triumphal entry. And I think we're we're going to do, revelations five as well. That's a tiny passage, but I, I think it's good again, to put yourself there in the scene studying the scene.
00;37;20;04 - 00;37;44;25
Murray Dueck
Right. That's something happens. Okay. And so, I'm going to read this, but then I'm going to ask you some questions. the think again, what we're trying to do here is, is, move just beyond the cerebral reading of the passage. Right. Again, we we're going to we start with our intellect, and then we kind of fire up the imagination.
00;37;44;25 - 00;38;05;02
Murray Dueck
Right? That's part of us. But we want to move it down into our inner man, our heart, our news. Right. Which which, as the spirit speaks to us and he reveals things, you know, that that begins to happen. This conversation happens. Peace comes, you know, a sense of of of the love of Christ comes. That's that's our inner man being aware of that.
00;38;05;04 - 00;38;28;27
Murray Dueck
But, you know, we we walk towards it, that we just walk into the water deeper and deeper. And so, so when you read scripture like this, it you picture, what would you smell, what would you taste, what would you think? What would you feel? What are other people in the image thinking? What are they feeling? What are they experiencing?
00;38;29;00 - 00;38;50;13
Murray Dueck
How is that influencing their actions? So when you step into the scene, there's you're not just reading with your brain, you're experiencing all of that right with Christ. And then and you begin to ask questions like, why that thing? Or why would that happen? Right? We're, you know, where is that in my life? Where have I experienced? So that's what we're going to do.
00;38;50;13 - 00;39;23;17
Murray Dueck
So I'm just preparing you taste, see, smell, touch, hear, feel. It's all in there. Right. Okay. So let us pray and we'll get to 21 Triumphal Entry. Lord, we thank you for your word. Your word is God breathed. and so we know that in the midst of this written word, the logos is the ruach of God, the word of the Lord, spoken word that you dwell within your word, Jesus.
00;39;23;17 - 00;40;11;04
Murray Dueck
This is your word. By your spirit you speak. And we ask you in the midst of your word, this God that's breath we breathe upon step in. So we bring our attention, our inner being, right over into, into this, this moment. Thank you Jesus. Triumphal entry Matthew 21. As they approached the disciples, Jesus with his disciples as he approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the mount of Olives, Jesus said to two disciples, saying to them, go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there with her colt by her.
00;40;11;07 - 00;40;36;28
Murray Dueck
Untie them. Bring them to me. If anyone says anything to you, tell them that the Lord needs them and he will send them right away. And, the writer goes on to say, this took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet. Say to the daughter of Zion, see your come, King comes to you gentle and riding on a donkey in a pool to the 20.
00;40;37;00 - 00;40;58;23
Murray Dueck
Okay, so these two disciples were standing there. The 12 are moving towards Jerusalem. The crowds are gathering. The triumphal entry is about to happen, and you're selected by the Lord to leave. And not only leave, still somebodies donkey.
00;40;58;25 - 00;41;25;24
Murray Dueck
And you watch Jesus continue walking off and you have to go. And it looks like you're missing the party. And so either as if we're one of those two disciples, we're just observing them. What do they see in this moment?
00;41;25;27 - 00;41;34;25
Murray Dueck
What are they experiencing? Being told to do something that seems very unbiblical.
00;41;34;27 - 00;41;44;00
Murray Dueck
What's happening in their hearts?
00;41;44;02 - 00;42;10;28
Murray Dueck
The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. They brought the donkey and the colt placed their cloaks on them. And Jesus sat. Okay. So we just put ourselves in this mode. The disciples went, did the deed. Do you think they went full of faith?
00;42;11;01 - 00;42;15;06
Murray Dueck
Were they trembling a little bit?
00;42;15;09 - 00;42;24;18
Murray Dueck
How about if this was you, as the Lord of our asked you to do something that just did not make sense?
00;42;24;20 - 00;42;41;11
Murray Dueck
Leave the crowd. Leave the party. Want you to go do this. You're like what? This is what the church is doing. This is a direction the church is going. And you want me to leave and do what?
00;42;41;13 - 00;42;50;24
Murray Dueck
How did that work for you?
00;42;50;27 - 00;43;18;01
Murray Dueck
So the disciples, they get to this little to. bethphage. I think they said there's the donkey in the colt. The Lord was right. Of course he was. What were they feeling in that moment? You think being sent away from their master?
00;43;18;03 - 00;43;28;19
Murray Dueck
But it's like he knew. Jesus knew he saw it. What he described was exactly what they found.
00;43;28;22 - 00;43;37;22
Murray Dueck
What are they experiencing in them?
00;43;37;24 - 00;43;52;02
Murray Dueck
It's a done to their hearts, their faith. What are they talking about? As they walk back with this donkey, they get.
00;43;52;05 - 00;43;58;09
Murray Dueck
And if you look at all the other disciples with Jesus.
00;43;58;12 - 00;44;09;28
Murray Dueck
Do you think these two disciples maybe have experienced something now that the other disciples might have wished they'd been there for?
00;44;10;01 - 00;44;24;22
Murray Dueck
That walking away and doing something dumb. Actually, they've kept an encounter with God that's unique and special. Just them. For eternity.
00;44;24;24 - 00;44;32;22
Murray Dueck
How about you?
00;44;32;25 - 00;44;45;04
Murray Dueck
And with that, we could just praise father when we're called away from the crowd, told to do something that doesn't make any.
00;44;45;06 - 00;45;01;16
Murray Dueck
We ask you to startle us with the reality of you going before us. Just like these two. Disciple. Being able to take back what we find in the community.
00;45;01;18 - 00;45;22;22
Murray Dueck
Thank you. Okay, so let's let's keep going in this passage of. So where in your life, you know, you start to ask these questions. Oh, how would I respond? How would that feel? Now, you see, as you're using the eyes of your heart, not just blowing through it by just reading it. There's a lot going on in this passage.
00;45;22;22 - 00;45;50;15
Murray Dueck
Feelings, thoughts, experience, encountering the spirit. Okay, we'll go a little further. Just another six verses. the disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed. They brought the donkey and the colt, place your cloaks on them. And Jesus sat on very large crowds, spread their cloaks on the road, while others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road.
00;45;50;17 - 00;46;03;05
Murray Dueck
The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted, Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!
00;46;03;08 - 00;46;27;07
Murray Dueck
When Jesus entered the city, the whole city was stirred and asked, who is this? Crowds answered, This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee. Okay, to let's just because we know where the story goes. Don't be.
00;46;27;10 - 00;46;48;22
Murray Dueck
So there's Jesus. and again, intellectually, there's some cool stuff here. When Jay, who I think it was, was crowned king or was going to be the next king, his soldiers took off their robes and spread it before him, right? So he could walk on them. It's a sign of it. That's what people are doing here. That's a sign of they're going to serve you.
00;46;48;23 - 00;47;09;19
Murray Dueck
You see that Hosanna would be the thing. You would yell to an earthly king, Hosanna, Hosanna, intercede for me, help you with my sin, you know. So you know, we're seeing a proclamation of Jesus's earthly reign. At least that's what people think. So let's just stand there.
00;47;09;21 - 00;47;13;19
Murray Dueck
They're the disciples.
00;47;13;22 - 00;47;33;18
Murray Dueck
What do you think they're feeling and experiencing right now? There's a rush of the crowd. to crush the crush of the people. Making a way for Jesus on the donkey.
00;47;33;21 - 00;47;39;08
Murray Dueck
There's the exuberance of the. Of the people.
00;47;39;11 - 00;47;50;12
Murray Dueck
What do they want from Jesus? What are they doing? Why are they doing this? What are they thinking? If you listen, look around this crowd.
00;47;50;14 - 00;48;05;06
Murray Dueck
Be the feeling in their hearts. What are they? What are they saying to one in what do they want?
00;48;05;09 - 00;48;13;00
Murray Dueck
Look at the disciples. What do they want?
00;48;13;02 - 00;48;17;26
Murray Dueck
Now look at Jesus.
00;48;17;29 - 00;48;22;09
Murray Dueck
What does he want?
00;48;22;11 - 00;48;33;09
Murray Dueck
What do you think? The look on his face is on the stone. What's he feeling in his heart?
00;48;33;12 - 00;48;55;12
Murray Dueck
And what's the difference, you think, between what Jesus is feeling and seeing? What the disciples are seeing and feeling what the crowd is seeing.
00;48;55;15 - 00;49;01;02
Murray Dueck
And let's just ask the Lord. Very simple question.
00;49;01;05 - 00;49;06;26
Murray Dueck
Let's just look right at Jesus.
00;49;06;28 - 00;49;17;02
Murray Dueck
And the thought and picture it feeling all good. The Lord I see the crowd.
00;49;17;05 - 00;49;28;26
Murray Dueck
I see the disciples. I see you, Lord. Why do you feel the way you do here?
00;49;28;28 - 00;49;50;00
Murray Dueck
What's on your heart here that's different than the people? Jesus.
00;49;50;03 - 00;50;13;05
Murray Dueck
So just go on a little bit quick. It's good. Just so. So. Because I wanted to do too. And I didn't realize they actually connected very well. Now, take your Bibles. Let's flip right over to revelation five. Here. Okay. But you'll notice that that using the eyes of your heart, it's really and feeling really enhancing that passage, isn't it?
00;50;13;05 - 00;50;36;11
Murray Dueck
Instead of just reading it through. But here, this would be the answer to Jesus on the donkey. I think right here this would be the answer. And I didn't realize this was going to connect so well. But so here's John having his vision of of, the throne. Jesus had said, come up here. And this is what he sees.
00;50;36;13 - 00;50;57;28
Murray Dueck
Verse one, we're going to step into this passage to and it'll it'll quicken. Well, everybody, with what we just did, give it some closure. Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne. This is John. sorry. Revelations five one John writing. Then I saw on the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides, and sealed the seven seals.
00;50;58;00 - 00;51;21;05
Murray Dueck
And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, whose voice who is worthy to break the seals and open the scrolls? But no one in heaven, on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside. I wept and wept because no one was found who is worthy to open the scroll. So let's wept.
00;51;21;05 - 00;51;56;00
Murray Dueck
And wept means continually. It's. It's, future present. I think it it's continuous. So let's just let's just step into that. There's a throne and they're looking. They're sending out messengers under the earth. All of the earth above the earth. They're looking for somebody. There's no. But they're looking. And John is watching, and he sees the utter futility.
00;51;56;02 - 00;52;10;14
Murray Dueck
Can we just stay with it for a second and experience what John is seeing, what he's feeling. How it's affecting.
00;52;10;16 - 00;52;15;17
Murray Dueck
There's no one.
00;52;15;19 - 00;52;31;15
Murray Dueck
Then one of the elders said to me, do not weep. See, the lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll, and it's seven seals.
00;52;31;18 - 00;52;43;06
Murray Dueck
Wait a minute. I don't have to weep. There's a lion, everybody, what do you think John's feeling in this moment?
00;52;43;08 - 00;52;51;04
Murray Dueck
Well, what do you think he's going to see? He turns around.
00;52;51;07 - 00;52;57;12
Murray Dueck
After all this weeping and disappointment.
00;52;57;14 - 00;53;02;18
Murray Dueck
There's something better. A lion.
00;53;02;20 - 00;53;31;14
Murray Dueck
Than I. Then he turns around. Then I saw a lamb looking as if it had been slain. Standing in the center of its throne, circled by the four living creatures and the elders. And he turns. It's not a lion, after all. It's a lamb looking as if it was standing in the center of a row. So look at your heart, everyone.
00;53;31;14 - 00;53;40;12
Murray Dueck
You expect to see a lion. You turn around. You see this little lamb.
00;53;40;15 - 00;53;46;28
Murray Dueck
Changes in how you feel.
00;53;47;00 - 00;53;57;28
Murray Dueck
How you approach a lamb differently than a lion.
00;53;58;01 - 00;54;07;11
Murray Dueck
And how about when you look at that little lamb on a throne standing right in the center?
00;54;07;13 - 00;54;19;08
Murray Dueck
And around it, the living creatures in the.
00;54;19;10 - 00;54;32;21
Murray Dueck
Risen! Look on the elders faces. What are they feeling? Looking at the lamb. Half of the living creature.
00;54;32;23 - 00;54;46;13
Murray Dueck
What's going on inside of you? What do you want to do with this lamb?
00;54;46;16 - 00;54;50;04
Murray Dueck
Jesus!
00;54;50;06 - 00;55;01;15
Murray Dueck
Maybe it's an obvious question. When you died on Passover in the book of John, as the lamb was slain.
00;55;01;17 - 00;55;08;03
Murray Dueck
Jesus expected to see the lion.
00;55;08;05 - 00;55;27;07
Murray Dueck
But you're showing us yourself as the lamb. Why? Why did you flip that out? We expected a lion. But you're showing us a lamb. Why? Why did you change that?
00;55;27;10 - 00;55;48;24
Murray Dueck
Why? Why the throne?
00;55;48;26 - 00;56;15;11
Murray Dueck
And you know, for homework, we could maybe throw this question out. Lord, in anywhere in my own life, have I witnessed anybody? I thought they'd show up as a lion. They chose to be a lamb. Christian leaders throughout history. Lord, is there anywhere in my life right now that I want to be the lion? But you're asking me to be.
00;56;15;14 - 00;56;23;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Jesus. That's. That's pretty good. I think so, go ahead.
00;56;23;21 - 00;56;51;16
Joshua Hoffert
Well, just if you notice, everybody the way Mary kind of led you through questions of the passage to personalize the passage, put yourself in there and see what was actually happening in the passage that you transcend functional study. And you actually let the words be living as they are.
00;56;51;18 - 00;56;52;13
Murray Dueck
00;56;52;15 - 00;56;58;16
Joshua Hoffert
Or when it when where? Hebrews 412. Right. The Word of God is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword.
00;56;58;16 - 00;56;59;19
Murray Dueck
That's right.
00;56;59;21 - 00;57;32;20
Joshua Hoffert
dividing between, joints and marrow and bone, bones and marrow and soul and spirit. And so what we're talking about is the active, the active use of Scripture. In that sense, the word. Yeah. Taking on form and impacting us. Right. all all Scripture being profitable and, and, God breathed and profitable for instruction. Right. This is what we're looking at is it's not functional utility.
00;57;32;23 - 00;57;55;21
Joshua Hoffert
And you can just I mean, you can just look at someone like, you Mr. Bart Herman, who, is a New Testament scholar and a foremost expert and a avowed agnostic, who doesn't believe the Bible is the word of God.
00;57;55;23 - 00;57;58;09
Murray Dueck
Shocking the be able to put all that together.
00;57;58;12 - 00;58;23;10
Joshua Hoffert
And, well, my point is, he's got a functional knowledge beyond probably every one of us. You know, there's very few experts who would be more functionally versed in the New Testament scriptures. And someone like Bart Herman, but they haven't the so the the knowledge of the Scripture is not the same thing as the Word of God being looked at like living and active.
00;58;23;13 - 00;58;24;00
Murray Dueck
That's right.
00;58;24;00 - 00;58;44;24
Joshua Hoffert
And so how do we make it living and active? Well, we put ourselves in the midst of it. That's one of the ways. There's lots of ways, but that's one of the ways we're now exercising. and in a way, we're again, going back to Hebrews, were exercising our senses, and, and so this is, this is Choat choose your passage.
00;58;44;24 - 00;59;21;06
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe it's Psalm 23, right? maybe it's, the John baptizing Jesus. You choose the passage, you read through the passage, and then you start putting yourself in and picturing it going, what was that like? How might that impact me? And asking the same kind of questions and all of a sudden the scripture becomes way different and it becomes a, a, a, tool to pray and to know the living presence of the father versus, something I'm studying and wrestling with and, and it impacts my thoughts.
00;59;21;08 - 00;59;26;03
Joshua Hoffert
So, you know, it's still good to study. It's still good to study and wrestle with. We're not I'm not saying.
00;59;26;05 - 00;59;27;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah, absolutely. Right.
00;59;27;13 - 00;59;32;15
Joshua Hoffert
But this is another layer of application.
00;59;32;17 - 00;59;55;10
Murray Dueck
And you'll you know, you'll notice everyone that thought that it ceases to be a picture and becomes a window like this, you know, because I if you take a minute and go, okay, you know, you run the test, right? So and you got to test it, right. Do not grieve the spirit. Do not despise prophecy. So revelation being given right is one way to do it.
00;59;55;12 - 01;00;13;02
Murray Dueck
test it, you know, and hold on to the good. So test it with Scripture. It was the Bible say about, Jesus being a lamb. If you accept or the things the Lord says you, what about fruit of the spirit? Is this producing peace, joy, goodness, patience, you know, gentleness in you as you practice, confirmation.
01;00;13;02 - 01;00;23;07
Murray Dueck
If it's the Lord, you know, you'll keep speaking through sermons, right? Friends and music. You know all the ways he speaks, bouncing off other people. Hey, guys, this is what I got in my devotion. Hey, what do you think about this?
01;00;23;10 - 01;00;24;07
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.
01;00;24;10 - 01;00;46;01
Murray Dueck
inner witness. Does it, you know. So. And then hang on to the good. You know, we have to test. But. But to not. We don't want to grieve the spirit. We don't despise prophecy. Know we have to step into it. Right? You have to step into your gifting. And this is a good way to do that. And I would suggest everyone like it was interesting when you mentioned Psalm 23.
01;00;46;03 - 01;01;02;23
Murray Dueck
I think we all do this with Psalm 23 all the time. Yeah. You know, everybody does this automatically with Psalm 23, but let's, let's well, now we just did it with the rest of the Bible, right? And let's, let's just keep doing what we do with Psalm 23 and step into it.
01;01;02;23 - 01;01;03;09
Joshua Hoffert
Let's write.
01;01;03;11 - 01;01;04;27
Murray Dueck
Everything else. Right?
01;01;04;29 - 01;01;36;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. It's it's an ancient practice. And, you know, it's it's, you can make the case that, like, even thinking of Daniel has a dream, and then, yeah, then some time has passed and he's thinking about the dream that he's had as revelation, and he's putting himself back in. You know, in the dream. I'm in the Citadel, and I see all these things happen.
01;01;36;01 - 01;01;59;12
Joshua Hoffert
And then I happen to be standing by the River Khabar, and then I'm back in the Citadel. So anyway, he's has the dream, and then later he's by the river and he pictures a dream. And so he's reflecting back on this and putting himself in it. And all of a sudden he's he's gaining the revelation, the revelatory insight of what the dream meant in the first place in a way that's similar to what we're doing.
01;01;59;15 - 01;02;01;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Very cool.
01;02;01;15 - 01;02;05;09
Joshua Hoffert
so, you know, it's, you know, seven and eight.
01;02;05;12 - 01;02;24;06
Murray Dueck
I did not know that that's what he was doing there. That's really cool. and I would say if you would just pay attention, because we'll talk about news coming up a little bit more, right. Inner man heart. But just notice as, as you do these activations how you, you know, you get a little more peaceful, a little more restful, right.
01;02;24;06 - 01;02;48;19
Murray Dueck
Things in the day fall away. And you're moving from a very active, you know, brain to more of inner man. So that's right I think. Thank you. Fusion three here. I pray God would strengthen you. Inner man. I think that happened a little bit. Yeah. so, Christ may dwell in your heart by faith. So think if you're fearful and your brain's going everywhere or centered back in my heart.
01;02;48;21 - 01;03;05;02
Murray Dueck
Right. So you would know how high and wide and long and deep is the love of Christ. I hope you're feeling some of that now, to, that that's your passive kenosis head knowledge. That's the word there so that you may be filled to all the fullness of God. So, hey, you want to get filled to the fullness, right?
01;03;05;06 - 01;03;26;25
Murray Dueck
Bring your thoughts captive. Let Jesus get back in your heart, being the ruling power, and start experiencing his love as you interact. Spirit will fill you and you just walk it deeper. You know how many stages are there anything right? Right. Whole bunch. That's right. And but you learn to make that as a habit. But it's a discipline that we write.
01;03;26;28 - 01;03;31;26
Murray Dueck
We have to learn how to do these. That's right. Right. That's right. There you go.
01;03;31;29 - 01;03;37;00
Joshua Hoffert
Well, Marie, thank you for, leading us through that. That was awesome. And, and.
01;03;37;02 - 01;03;39;16
Murray Dueck
For my pleasure, everyone, I enjoyed that.
01;03;39;19 - 01;03;57;08
Joshua Hoffert
for everybody. We've been enjoying the journey. And we love your comments and your and your. If you leave a comment on if you're watching this on YouTube or if you're, listening through your podcasting app, leave us a review. And, that's always helpful to let people know about it and tell your friends about the voices from the desert pot.
01;03;57;09 - 01;03;58;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah, and.
01;03;58;10 - 01;04;10;17
Joshua Hoffert
Our our goal is to help you navigate the interior life and among a bunch of other things. But that kind of sums it up. You know, the, the interior wasteland making sense of it.
01;04;10;20 - 01;04;15;23
Murray Dueck
That's right. So shout out to Sarah in Saskatchewan. That's right. Right. Nice things.
01;04;15;23 - 01;04;29;00
Joshua Hoffert
And she does. Sarah is awesome. Yes. And, well, I guess with that, Mary, we'll call this one to a close. And, we will see everybody next week. Same bat time, same bat channel.
01;04;29;03 - 01;04;30;06
Murray Dueck
Sounds good.
01;04;30;09 - 01;04;31;03
Joshua Hoffert
Bye, everybody.
