Inner Prayer: the Lord's Prayer and the Sermon on the Mount

Sometimes it seems as if we read the scriptures as a series of commands or instructions, rather than an invitation to follow the way of Jesus and to know him intimately. In this episode, Josh and Murray begin diving into the Lord's prayer and the Sermon on the Mount. Is the Lord's prayer a formula to pray? Is the Sermon on the Mount a great moral teaching? Or is there perhaps more to both of these popular passages that can help us navigate the murky waters of the heart.

For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/

For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

Transcript

00;00;15;07 - 00;00;35;15
Joshua Hoffert
You're the eyes going back to what was written about. The eyes of the heart are looking at anger from lust breakers going through already. Lust of your heart. You're already inked because you were looking at anger. You were looking at lust. Right? And he's going to not enter into the secret place. And your father is there. Yeah. What have you started doing?

00;00;35;18 - 00;00;43;25
Joshua Hoffert
You've started turning your gaze away from things.

00;00;43;28 - 00;00;46;24
Joshua Hoffert
You.

00;00;46;27 - 00;01;18;23
Joshua Hoffert
Need. Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of VFR. VFR. This way. Yeah, that doesn't sound. That's how you might 54. I that could be a disease. Could be. That's what I'm thinking. It sounds like the acronym for the season. Oh, yeah. But well, every time I set up the the an episode of I'm editing or anything, I it's just I put VFR so.

00;01;18;26 - 00;01;30;04
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, do you not welcome two voices from the desert? Desert does. Oh, 00I will be.

00;01;30;07 - 00;01;35;24
Murray Dueck
You know, next time because we are on video. I'm going to have to film the puppies. Your reaction to that? Because that was quite brilliant.

00;01;35;26 - 00;01;36;22
Joshua Hoffert
Oh yeah.

00;01;36;26 - 00;01;39;21
Murray Dueck
They just both jumped right up and like, what the.

00;01;39;24 - 00;01;42;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah. That's we've got we've got our thank you.

00;01;43;03 - 00;01;44;04
Murray Dueck
Thank you puppies.

00;01;44;07 - 00;01;45;21
Joshua Hoffert
Aiden's brother and sister.

00;01;45;21 - 00;01;48;00
Murray Dueck
I guess I could show everybody that now that.

00;01;48;03 - 00;01;49;29
Joshua Hoffert
There we go. Look there's.

00;01;49;29 - 00;01;51;10
Murray Dueck
Katelyn.

00;01;51;13 - 00;01;56;29
Joshua Hoffert
He's like, 000 there. Look at that.

00;01;57;03 - 00;01;59;19
Murray Dueck
That's right. You kill any time you he'll kill you.

00;01;59;21 - 00;02;03;15
Joshua Hoffert
Oh no. Yes. No. yeah.

00;02;03;15 - 00;02;05;18
Murray Dueck
The first reaction was better, but it's still right.

00;02;05;19 - 00;02;20;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That was I'm very. Yeah. Well not see that that you see, I think you said last week that when they hear that you said or a couple weeks ago when they hear that there will eventually they'll attack you. I think you may have the opposite effect is they're going to hear it so often now they're going to be desensitized.

00;02;20;11 - 00;02;31;16
Joshua Hoffert
Oh no, that's not be true. you're coyote. Oh, yes, you're coyote howl is going to backfire on sensitizing them. Yeah, yeah. Because you went.

00;02;31;16 - 00;02;33;01
Murray Dueck
Back to sleep like, hey, thanks a.

00;02;33;01 - 00;02;33;25
Joshua Hoffert
Lot, right? Yeah.

00;02;33;26 - 00;02;37;23
Murray Dueck
I do not do that when you're when you're working later on when you're a little bigger. Oh my goodness.

00;02;37;28 - 00;02;59;08
Joshua Hoffert
That's what our lab does is goes back to sleep. That's what he's best known for. Oh, boy. it's it's it's fascinating if, if, if I take the kids from the house and errands at home. Right. That immediately. Because he'll be high strung with the kids at home. Not always, but sometimes. Right. As soon as the kids leave, he just conks right out.

00;02;59;10 - 00;03;12;14
Joshua Hoffert
Really? Yeah. Aaron said he'll he'll sleep 19 times a day. Just the whole day long. Wow. Yeah, but if he's. But if the kids are there, he thinks, oh, yeah, I'm. I'm a kid too. I got to play with them.

00;03;12;20 - 00;03;14;02
Murray Dueck
This is my job. I got to play.

00;03;14;02 - 00;03;22;03
Joshua Hoffert
That's my job. That's what I am. If he sees in outside running around, why I might not outside running around with these kids. I'm a kid, right?

00;03;22;05 - 00;03;27;27
Murray Dueck
I got like I said, I got a sheep like that. Like got I got sheep dogs. I've got a dog sheep.

00;03;28;00 - 00;03;28;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;03;28;11 - 00;03;33;16
Murray Dueck
So are we bought him a little lamb to hang out with because we're like, oh, you need a little friend.

00;03;33;18 - 00;03;40;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. If I hate sheep, I, I'm a cat. And I'm. I don't get this. I mean it in a way. It is a put.

00;03;40;06 - 00;03;41;03
Murray Dueck
That up on a video.

00;03;41;05 - 00;03;51;29
Joshua Hoffert
It's a great analogy for what's the what's the if you want to, fly like the Eagles don't hang out with the turkeys or something. You know, I don't know if you ever heard that one, right. Yeah.

00;03;51;29 - 00;03;53;13
Murray Dueck
There's a poster of that.

00;03;53;13 - 00;04;13;24
Joshua Hoffert
Isn't it? Something like that. Right. And it's like it actually is a really fitting, like, you know, the the people that you surround. You're one of our one of our good friends. He's he's on both of our boards and we've had him on the podcast. Right, Steve. Yeah. he says, who you do life with is more important than what you do.

00;04;13;27 - 00;04;19;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. very nice. And I think that's very much, very much the case.

00;04;19;02 - 00;04;21;14
Murray Dueck
We would call that a Steve ism, a Steve it.

00;04;21;14 - 00;04;28;00
Joshua Hoffert
I actually have a whole list of Steve quotes that I have is very quotable. He is quotable. So who you just.

00;04;28;00 - 00;04;30;16
Murray Dueck
Say that one more time because that actually.

00;04;30;18 - 00;04;41;10
Joshua Hoffert
We should have him on and talk about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You realize with who you do life with is more important than what you do. And, and so the interesting thing about this is.

00;04;41;13 - 00;04;43;07
Murray Dueck
Everyone could go home now. Satisfied.

00;04;43;09 - 00;04;54;05
Joshua Hoffert
There you go. Well, the sheep, your sheep has now done life with you, right. And so now has a different vision of what he's like because he's very true.

00;04;54;06 - 00;04;55;16
Murray Dueck
Actually.

00;04;55;18 - 00;05;15;14
Joshua Hoffert
Our dog has done life with the kids and not with other dogs. We've just have the the put enough room for a second dog. and so who he does life with helps determine the kind of the kind of being he is. You know, he's not a person, so.

00;05;15;16 - 00;05;37;27
Murray Dueck
But it's quite interesting because that that lamb because you grew up in the house, expect certain things. And if it doesn't get it, it's pretty sneaky. Sure. So, because I take the tractor into the back field and I, you know, I clean or I bring hay bales out or whatever, nobody's allowed in there. Well, he's still mad that he's not allowed to live in the house because he he did.

00;05;37;27 - 00;05;39;06
Murray Dueck
And he remembers this.

00;05;39;08 - 00;05;39;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;05;39;17 - 00;05;57;19
Murray Dueck
So he needs special treatment because he is part of the family. So he makes sure that any day I'm going to work in that back field. He hides beside the tractor when I'm not looking, which I shouldn't be doing right. And then he sneaks into that field. Yeah, because I'm allowed in there and the other sheep aren't, all right.

00;05;57;19 - 00;05;59;23
Murray Dueck
Because I'm a part of the team.

00;06;00;02 - 00;06;00;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;06;00;12 - 00;06;10;24
Murray Dueck
That's right. it's it's interesting. You can see him think it through, right? Right. I'm not like them. I'm with them. Right. And and it's quite interesting. Yeah. Who we hung out with really, really did.

00;06;10;24 - 00;06;12;11
Joshua Hoffert
That. You know, I was, I was thinking about.

00;06;12;12 - 00;06;13;05
Murray Dueck
It quite fascinating.

00;06;13;10 - 00;06;28;16
Joshua Hoffert
I was thinking about, this story, this, I guess, is this, where maybe we're getting to our topic for the day, but slowly. Slowly. Yeah. That's if you followed voices with the voices from the desert. You realize that we get to our time.

00;06;28;18 - 00;06;32;23
Murray Dueck
So enjoy it. I must admit, because when you do didactic preaching your whole life.

00;06;32;28 - 00;06;34;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we're just always.

00;06;34;05 - 00;06;36;21
Murray Dueck
On point, and you're not allowed to do this.

00;06;36;23 - 00;06;38;14
Joshua Hoffert
And, And my church.

00;06;38;16 - 00;06;39;23
Murray Dueck
Cathartic and healing.

00;06;39;24 - 00;06;46;00
Joshua Hoffert
My church knows everybody. My church knows me is king of the rabbit trails. Really? All right. And that's probably.

00;06;46;00 - 00;06;46;12
Murray Dueck
Why I like.

00;06;46;12 - 00;07;13;14
Joshua Hoffert
Hanging out with you. Yeah. and and then king of the pregnant pauses. that's another one. anyway, so, I was thinking about this, when when James and John go to Jesus, actually, they send their. Matthew says they send their mom to Jesus, right? The mother of the sons of Zebedee goes to Jesus and says, hey, can my son sit at your right and left hand right?

00;07;13;14 - 00;07;41;25
Joshua Hoffert
And there's lots of things to say about that. you know, the ostensibly they're looking for power and wealth and position and all this stuff in the military uprising that Jesus is going to orchestrate and, but anyway, and Jesus says, you don't know what you're asking. It's not mine to give, but maybe you're going to get it right and, and, and then it says in the next passage, the other ten who heard about this got really upset.

00;07;41;25 - 00;07;42;29
Murray Dueck
They were indignant.

00;07;43;00 - 00;07;50;17
Joshua Hoffert
They were indignant. Right. And they're like, how could they? You know, you can just imagine the kind of the the like. I was just thinking, like, you.

00;07;50;17 - 00;07;54;26
Murray Dueck
Cheated me out of my position. Well, I'm thinking of yours. Their mother, to do it. Oh, my.

00;07;54;27 - 00;08;12;20
Joshua Hoffert
Your typical church or workplace environment, right. Like two guys go to the boss and say, well, let us lead the team. Yeah, right. And then the rest of the team goes, who do they think they are thinking? They can lead us, you know, like you could just see that dynamic playing out in so many different places. Right.

00;08;12;24 - 00;08;16;16
Murray Dueck
Did it work out so good for Joseph? when he shared that with his brothers.

00;08;16;20 - 00;08;36;14
Joshua Hoffert
I didn't know it did not. That's right. But that's the same dynamic, right? Is they let me be the leader and they go, wow, like, who do you think you are? Right? And they and you could hear James and John right, going, well we didn't ask. Our mom asked man. Like that's right. Got it. Us right. And you can you can get the the conflict that's going on right here and the resentment that's building.

00;08;36;14 - 00;08;58;19
Joshua Hoffert
And and I love when Jesus he goes Jesus knowing about this calls them together and doesn't even mention it once. Right? Yes. He doesn't even bring it up. Right. He doesn't say anything about it. He doesn't say, John and James, you guys are wrong for doing this. You need to apologize to the other ten because you've usurped their position.

00;08;58;19 - 00;09;19;25
Joshua Hoffert
He doesn't say to them, you need to apologize to James and John because you've gotten angry. And we're not angry people, right? Jesus? Jesus doesn't deal with the situation directly in that sense and go, let's figure out who's right and wrong. But he talks cultural language and values, right? He goes, he goes the least of the least of you.

00;09;19;26 - 00;09;44;27
Joshua Hoffert
Be the greatest. The greatest is going to be the least. Son of Man didn't come to be, sir, to be served, but to serve like he anchors their understanding of themselves to address the situation. He reminds them of who they are, anchors it in who he is. Right. And now he's building cultural language and practices. So they see themselves in light of the gospel in their mission rather than, well, let's just deal with the conflict.

00;09;44;29 - 00;10;11;15
Joshua Hoffert
And and I love when you look at how Jesus approaches these things, how he builds, how he builds the kingdom dynamic and perspective into the disciples. Just previously to that, he talks to Peter and the the Pharisees come and they say, hey, you know who pays? Do your disciples pay tax? And why don't they pay tax? Right? They're challenging Jesus.

00;10;11;17 - 00;10;37;14
Joshua Hoffert
And he says to Peter, well, who pays taxes? The sons of the king or the citizens of the kingdom? And Peter says, the citizens of the kingdom, not the sons. And he says to Peter, well, we're sons, right? I'm paraphrasing it, but we're sons. He says, but just so we don't offend the citizens, go find the money, you know, go find the fish on the side of the on the and pull the coin out of his mouth.

00;10;37;14 - 00;10;58;12
Joshua Hoffert
And, we'll pay the tax. Right. I love, you know, not the whatever happened with the fish. Was there a fish there? Was it just a. Yeah, parable? There's lots of different things about that. But what but what Jesus does is he helps Peter see who he is, right? He doesn't he doesn't go well. Who's right and who's wrong?

00;10;58;15 - 00;11;09;05
Joshua Hoffert
I love that that's the way that Jesus approaches these things. And, and which is, in a way, what we're talking about today and maybe starting a few different episodes. We'll see.

00;11;09;08 - 00;11;14;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Well, you know, a couple things that are, you know, a little bit commentary.

00;11;14;11 - 00;11;16;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Relating. Yeah.

00;11;16;12 - 00;11;32;04
Murray Dueck
It's interesting because I, you know, you think about that, that, you know, fish from the coin, the coin from the fish's mouth. I mean, you know, all these things in Hebrew culture, you have to interpret them, you know, like, and why did Jesus as a baby get gold, frankincense and myrrh? They're not just gifts for gold for a king.

00;11;32;04 - 00;11;34;23
Murray Dueck
Frankincense for a priest, myrrh for embalming right there.

00;11;34;23 - 00;11;35;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;11;35;20 - 00;11;49;23
Murray Dueck
So, you know, I always thought coin from Fisher. This is just me, but it's the verse that, you know, fish you. I will make you fishers of men. There's a clear with the disciples that in the midst of their serving, provision comes.

00;11;49;25 - 00;11;50;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right where the.

00;11;50;24 - 00;11;53;08
Murray Dueck
Vicious mouth so. And the other I mean, that's just me.

00;11;53;14 - 00;11;55;06
Joshua Hoffert
Know that's a. Yeah, it's it's a good one. Yep.

00;11;55;09 - 00;12;09;26
Murray Dueck
Historically speaking, the church, the Orthodox Church or the Desert Fathers in the writings of the fathers, because in that scene, I believe, where Jesus is saying to the disciples, hey, you know, at least he takes a little child and puts him on his lap right?

00;12;09;28 - 00;12;12;04
Joshua Hoffert
That's I think in one, I don't I think one.

00;12;12;04 - 00;12;12;17
Murray Dueck
Of the.

00;12;12;18 - 00;12;14;08
Joshua Hoffert
One of the renditions. Yeah.

00;12;14;11 - 00;12;18;12
Murray Dueck
That that little child supposedly was Ignatius of Antioch.

00;12;18;15 - 00;12;20;20
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, really? I didn't know that. Yeah.

00;12;20;21 - 00;12;23;19
Murray Dueck
So, Ignatius, you know, we call him all the time. Everybody.

00;12;23;21 - 00;12;24;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;12;24;01 - 00;12;37;15
Murray Dueck
God became man so man could become God. That guy, the guy that quoted that. Yeah, that would be the child. A disciple of John Saint John. Yeah. And, anyway, if you're like, what? Like, yeah. Pretty famous historical figure there. So.

00;12;37;17 - 00;12;37;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;12;37;26 - 00;12;44;16
Murray Dueck
But that's. Yeah, the church believes that, you know, it's that's what that's what do we it has been passed down through the ages. So.

00;12;44;16 - 00;12;58;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Right. Is that Ignatius. Was that. Yeah. I don't think I had heard that before. And and it doesn't, you know, the, the Matthew account. And because he does say the same thing with the little kid and he says the same thing when he washes their feet, essentially. Right. So there's.

00;12;58;21 - 00;13;17;04
Murray Dueck
You know, there's up one more passage. I don't know if you guys watched The Chosen. So I hope some of you don't tune up. Like what, that Mormon base? No, it's not Mormon. I don't know who came up with that. Right. I mean, yeah, it's a good combination of of Catholic scholars and evangelical scholars and, and a messianic Jewish guy.

00;13;17;11 - 00;13;33;02
Murray Dueck
Right. Watch him debate. But they do this scene based on on this. It's a little bit further on, but it's brilliant. And and one of my favorite scenes and it's, you know, in this last season. So if you haven't watched it yet, everybody skip this bit. But it's not not that important of a scene. It's not going to ruin anything.

00;13;33;02 - 00;13;37;05
Murray Dueck
Besides, you've read it in the Bible already, so it's not like I'm going to ruin your the plot.

00;13;37;08 - 00;13;38;06
Joshua Hoffert
I'm going away.

00;13;38;08 - 00;13;53;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So, the Pharisees are debating what to do about Jesus. Like, are we going to kill this guy? What's going on? And there's a couple guys who are like, maybe they'll believe in him. The Pharisees, they're going to change camps. Like what? This guy just raised Lazarus from the dead. Oh my goodness. He's gotta have something going on.

00;13;53;03 - 00;13;53;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;13;53;21 - 00;14;14;11
Murray Dueck
So here's Jesus sitting with the disciples, and these two Pharisees have come to like, hey, let's talk. You know, we need to we need to talk. But they're still thinking in their head, earthly power. Like they're thinking, okay, we might be able to get you in with the Pharisees. You know, it's something like that's going on. And at that very moment, I mean, Judas is there.

00;14;14;14 - 00;14;33;13
Murray Dueck
Mary comes in, watched it, washes Jesus's hair with her feet. And of course, the Pharisees freak out, what are you letting this woman do? Right? Like, oh my goodness, I think it was even on the Sabbath. Again, I dig, I'm not quite sure, but Jesus goes into this talk of it's not the greatest in the kingdom, right? No, don't.

00;14;33;16 - 00;14;45;12
Murray Dueck
It's about the least. And being servants to one another and the look on their faces when they. Because, you know, here are these guys with positions of power. I mean, there's only 70, I think, right in the Sanhedrin or whatever it is.

00;14;45;12 - 00;14;46;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;14;46;16 - 00;14;56;28
Murray Dueck
And and the fact that Jesus is saying your position means nothing, your power means nothing. It's about service and love. Like it comes across so clear in that moment.

00;14;57;04 - 00;14;57;15
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;14;57;18 - 00;15;04;11
Murray Dueck
And then how Judas reacts. Like what? It's it's it's a fascinating ten minutes to watch. It really is worth your time.

00;15;04;14 - 00;15;34;28
Joshua Hoffert
Well, it it's and that in a way that brings us to the topic of the day, because we wanted to talk about the Lord's Prayer. Yeah. And the teachings of Jesus. In that sense, we've been talking through the last few months, the, the, the paradigm of Scripture that invites us to that place of intimacy and how that's God's expectation all along for a bride, and then how that plays out in the contemplative authors and, and then we've shown talking about practical and different forms of prayer and all of that.

00;15;34;28 - 00;15;38;20
Joshua Hoffert
So we wanted to talk about the Lord's Prayer today. and.

00;15;38;20 - 00;15;44;20
Murray Dueck
And, and and moving towards indwell. You'll see it in the passage once we get started. Everybody so.

00;15;44;24 - 00;15;44;29
Joshua Hoffert
Much.

00;15;44;29 - 00;15;48;17
Murray Dueck
Cheerier prayer. It's so,

00;15;48;20 - 00;15;50;03
Joshua Hoffert
It gets us. Well, let me just say.

00;15;50;03 - 00;15;51;01
Murray Dueck
This prayer form.

00;15;51;03 - 00;16;16;00
Joshua Hoffert
It gets us to there what we've been saying. It gets us to there. Because the entry point for the teachings of Jesus, that the beginnings of Jesus's teaching on prayer with you find in, Matthew it it he kind of launches into the diatribe in Matthew six, but he sets the stage for everything in Matthew five verse two, where he says, blessed are the poor in spirit.

00;16;16;03 - 00;16;45;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right. It's this place of humility and lack and, recognizing your great need. That is the entry point for kingdom life. That is, that is, he sat down and he taught them, ostensibly connected with Matthew for saying he went about everywhere, teaching the gospel of the kingdom and healing the sick. And then the next thing that happens is he sits down and teaches, and the first thing he says is, blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

00;16;45;25 - 00;17;11;25
Joshua Hoffert
So this is his teaching on the kingdom of heaven, right? And and the entry point for anything is blessed are the poor in spirit, which is that place of humility, that place of the least. So you can't even really get to, our father who art in heaven if you haven't first, you know, walked through the door of blessed are the poor in spirit.

00;17;11;27 - 00;17;26;09
Murray Dueck
And everybody should keep in mind to it as as you know, if you're holding your Bible, if you've opened it up now and gone to Matthew five and six, and you look at all these chapter number numbers and the little subtitle is Breaking everything, I have to remember this is a letter. None of that was there. That's right.

00;17;26;10 - 00;17;46;18
Murray Dueck
That was added by modern scholars to help it read better. But again, it's chopped it up into little texts, which we think it's all cut apart. But it's not. It's it's a letter that flows from thought. The thought, the thought. Yeah. Right. And and as Josh pointed out there, you know, that that is one of the key thoughts that's being built upon here.

00;17;46;20 - 00;18;12;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's it's the way it's the way anybody would write the kind of letters that Matthew, Mark and Luke and John write is. We are trying to tell you something about Jesus. And so we're going to organize this in a way that gets the point across that this is what we're right. It's not they're not writing, a biographical account of his life that's not Luke is more in that vein, trying to do that.

00;18;12;11 - 00;18;38;12
Joshua Hoffert
But they've got a point that they're trying to communicate about someone. It's just like, you know, if someone was writing to you about how great of a man Abraham Lincoln was, they might not start at his birth. They might start at the fact that he was known as an honest man. Yeah. Honest Abe right then. And so they're trying to present the information in a way that can communicates the character of the person to you, which is essentially what Matthew is doing here from a Jewish perspective.

00;18;38;15 - 00;18;56;28
Joshua Hoffert
And so when he's presenting the first teaching of Jesus and then characterizing it as the teachings on the kingdom of heaven, this is what he means. And he's even doing it in a way where he has Jesus going up on a mountain, sitting down and teaching his disciples. So Jesus is standing in the place of Moses, the great covenant bringer.

00;18;57;00 - 00;19;12;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right. So this is this is your I mean, he goes into the wilderness, he comes out of the wilderness. It's just like Matthew's present. And Jesus as a Moses figure going, Moses brought us a covenant, and Jesus is bringing us a better covenant.

00;19;12;15 - 00;19;22;09
Murray Dueck
And you see that a lot. You know, I'll just throw it. One thought there. I guess today's me side commentary seems to be saying here, but, everyone you know, it's not side commentary.

00;19;22;11 - 00;19;22;27
Joshua Hoffert
It's just a.

00;19;22;27 - 00;19;24;09
Murray Dueck
Little bit off topic, but it's.

00;19;24;10 - 00;19;28;16
Joshua Hoffert
It's just it's Murray comment. It's more entry.

00;19;28;18 - 00;19;32;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah. More entry. I like that, Merman. Terry.

00;19;32;02 - 00;19;34;13
Joshua Hoffert
Merman. Terry. yeah.

00;19;34;13 - 00;19;35;08
Murray Dueck
Merman eater.

00;19;35;15 - 00;19;36;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. I'm going to.

00;19;36;06 - 00;19;37;11
Murray Dueck
Terminate everybody here.

00;19;37;11 - 00;19;38;09
Joshua Hoffert
There you go. Yeah.

00;19;38;09 - 00;19;58;00
Murray Dueck
It's so it's it again. You know, this was a common thought about the Messiah that he would do the works of Moses. So. So, you know, it's very intentional, everyone. When Jesus, where he positions himself on the mountain with the people, Moses up on the mountain with the people, and you'll see that in the thinking of people in the, in the people, like in John.

00;19;58;05 - 00;20;18;10
Murray Dueck
And it's six where Jesus feeds the 5000. Right? And they go, surely this is a prophet who came into the world, right? Because Moses said, God will raise up another one like myself. And so the Messiah is supposed to do the stuff Moses did multiplication of food being one of those things which Jesus is in that John passage.

00;20;18;10 - 00;20;23;00
Murray Dueck
And then they try to make him king by force. They're like, oh, this is a guy that does stuff like.

00;20;23;00 - 00;20;24;08
Joshua Hoffert
Moses, right?

00;20;24;09 - 00;20;31;19
Murray Dueck
So and and Jesus is intentionally positioned Moses has is 72. Jesus has his 72.

00;20;31;19 - 00;20;31;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;20;31;29 - 00;20;54;23
Murray Dueck
You know, Jesus goes into the desert 40 days. Moses is up in the mountain. 40 so everyone there's very intentional. But as the Lord, as you know, Josh is saying here, when he goes up, he brings a new covenant, right? So Moses establishes covenant, Jesus is establishing covenant. And so this covenant also has inner prayer as a part of the covenant.

00;20;54;26 - 00;20;55;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Which is which we're.

00;20;55;27 - 00;20;56;28
Murray Dueck
Able to see in a moment.

00;20;56;29 - 00;20;58;00
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. And Moses.

00;20;58;00 - 00;20;59;12
Murray Dueck
Very important to get that like.

00;20;59;14 - 00;21;27;19
Joshua Hoffert
Well, and in in the sermon on the Mount. Right. You've got you've got the Jesus he's the he's calling he calls himself the temple. Right. And John, John one and all throughout in different places in the Gospels. Anyway, he calls himself the temple. Now you have him as the temple in the wilderness, like you've got everybody got you got the disciples gathered around him.

00;21;27;19 - 00;21;33;09
Joshua Hoffert
It's just like you just see the parallels there, right? Yeah, yeah. Go directly. Well, you know this here's.

00;21;33;11 - 00;21;34;06
Murray Dueck
The interesting one.

00;21;34;08 - 00;21;35;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, go for it.

00;21;35;11 - 00;21;36;19
Murray Dueck
You got like.

00;21;36;21 - 00;21;40;00
Joshua Hoffert
I mean I'm like, Murray's getting going. Yeah.

00;21;40;05 - 00;21;47;25
Murray Dueck
Well interesting in the Midrash, you know, there's these Jewish commentaries on the Old Testament called the it's not a rash on your middle. It's actually.

00;21;47;27 - 00;21;48;25
Joshua Hoffert
A book.

00;21;48;27 - 00;21;50;27
Murray Dueck
And, and in the Midrash it says.

00;21;50;27 - 00;21;54;03
Joshua Hoffert
Might give you a rash in the middle if you spend so much time reading it. So.

00;21;54;03 - 00;22;13;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah. Fell asleep with that open on your round, your middle, maybe. it says in the Midrash that when. So again, this is Jewish commentary on, you know, on the Pentateuch, I guess is what we're talking about here. when Moses is on the, the, how is it on the mountain? No, no, no, no, he's on the mount.

00;22;13;02 - 00;22;30;25
Murray Dueck
He's with it with his 70 elders. And the Lord takes of the spirit that was on Moses and puts it on the 70 elders is what it says. And when the Spirit of God comes upon the 70 elders, they spoke in all the known languages of man, the Ten Commandments. And their voice went through out the earth.

00;22;30;28 - 00;22;31;16
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. So.

00;22;31;16 - 00;22;41;02
Murray Dueck
Right. I mean, just think, acts one, what's going on there? That right, right. The spirit that was on Christ comes upon their despite disciples and they speak in all the known languages of mass.

00;22;41;02 - 00;22;41;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;22;41;21 - 00;22;48;29
Murray Dueck
So very intentional. Like, you know, what's the average Jew thinking here? Like, this is what happened with Moses in his right?

00;22;49;03 - 00;22;49;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;22;49;13 - 00;23;08;17
Murray Dueck
Like very intentionally done. Right. And, anyway, I just had to throw that little known, you know, I was really good with rock trivia at one point in my life. Like, okay, the ability for me to to grab little pieces of and glean information I never forget, it's quite something. So luckily it works with biblical stuff at some level.

00;23;08;17 - 00;23;15;16
Joshua Hoffert
There you go. That's right. Yes, we'll have to have a whole episode dedicated to asking Murray questions about rock trivia and.

00;23;15;19 - 00;23;22;09
Murray Dueck
70s rock trivia to. I've tried to forget most of it, but if you push the right button, I'm sure it'll come up.

00;23;22;14 - 00;23;50;20
Joshua Hoffert
To come back. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, yeah. That's right. Well, you know, it's it's interesting when in Matthew five as, as Jesus starts to describe his kingdom vision, what he what and he's offering in a way he's offering clarification on, Old Testament precepts that were misunderstood in the in their original context. Right. Yeah. Yeah. but at least in the present day, they're in the day that he was speaking, they were misunderstood.

00;23;50;20 - 00;24;09;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Like you've heard it was said, thou shalt not murder. I'm saying that even if you're angry in your heart, you're guilty of committing murder. so you've heard it said an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. I've. I've said that, you know, forgive your forgive your enemy. Go an extra mile, give your the cloak off your back.

00;24;09;02 - 00;24;24;29
Joshua Hoffert
All this stuff. Right. So Jesus is offering a picture of the kingdom that actually draws us deeper and deeper into the interior life. And so it's not about murder as an action. It's about hatred in the heart.

00;24;25;01 - 00;24;27;05
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Jesus. Always. Everybody just remember.

00;24;27;05 - 00;24;29;08
Joshua Hoffert
Drawing the whole thing and don't lose.

00;24;29;11 - 00;24;34;02
Murray Dueck
Heart is, you know, we've talked a lot about that. This this is where Jesus goes here.

00;24;34;04 - 00;24;34;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;24;34;24 - 00;24;45;06
Murray Dueck
Maybe we'll point that out. So watch this episode. But just keep that in the back of your minds is where we're going through. Jesus is like, you got to live from a different place. Everybody. Right? Interior.

00;24;45;09 - 00;25;06;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And that's where that's the that's setting the stage for the Lord's Prayer. Yeah. Right. Because it's going like you think this is about external issues, guys, but it's not. And you think it's about, well, I didn't commit adultery somehow. Okay. But he's going. But you looked at that woman with lust, and so lust has conquered you. You haven't conquered it.

00;25;06;20 - 00;25;26;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right? And that's essentially what Jesus is saying. Anger has conquered you. Acting out murder doesn't mean that you're a murderer. Murder. Anger has conquered you and already won. It's way within you. lust has already conquered you and had its way with you. This is what he's saying. So it's not the external action that the commandment is getting at.

00;25;26;02 - 00;25;30;07
Joshua Hoffert
It's the internal posture of the heart that the commanding. Yes, getting it right. That's what Jesus.

00;25;30;10 - 00;25;37;02
Murray Dueck
Said. I wonder if the word is new. There I was going to quickly look it up, but I'll look it up later because it's a little interchangeable anyway, right?

00;25;37;03 - 00;25;39;21
Joshua Hoffert
News and heart can be Cardia, right?

00;25;39;23 - 00;25;42;27
Murray Dueck
Know. Anyway, I'll do it later. Sorry I get little.

00;25;43;00 - 00;26;02;18
Joshua Hoffert
Well, the. And the thing is. Jesus in the in in. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. That's that is, I've got the, I've got the Bible in front of me. ready to throw it at someone, but, I don't know. I've no time to look it up right now. Sorry.

00;26;02;21 - 00;26;05;12
Murray Dueck
Sorry, I shouldn't. And sugar mad don't drink it before it.

00;26;05;12 - 00;26;32;16
Joshua Hoffert
Pisses, right? Yeah. that's why you have to get, diet is what you need. Yeah. Not a diet. well, you know. Yeah. Well, okay, let's get back on topic. Got it. Yeah. So. So this kind of sets the stage for, a conversation about kind of around the Lord's Prayer, and. I'm sorry. We were talking about it before we went live, as we are want to do.

00;26;32;18 - 00;26;45;18
Joshua Hoffert
And one of the things I think you made an observation about how the Lord's Prayer becomes external practice. Right? It's kind of an external form. When people read it.

00;26;45;20 - 00;26;56;03
Murray Dueck
So, you know, it's again, you know, I grew up Mennonite brethren, everybody. So not horse and buggy, basically Baptists without guns. Let's just say it like that.

00;26;56;09 - 00;26;59;09
Joshua Hoffert
That's basically Canadian Baptist. Yes.

00;26;59;09 - 00;27;22;20
Murray Dueck
So so yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, you know, don't think I mean, back in the, in the, in the 70s or early 80s when Trudeau, the first Trudeau, his dad was prime minister, he came to speak in our town, which is largely Mennonite. And, he showed up in a horse and buggy and you got significantly laughed at because, nobody does that stuff, you know?

00;27;22;22 - 00;27;23;14
Murray Dueck
Anyway.

00;27;23;17 - 00;27;27;06
Joshua Hoffert
So, amazing what politicians do to call favors. And that's.

00;27;27;06 - 00;28;05;13
Murray Dueck
Right. It was pretty funny. Everybody thought that was pretty funny. So, but, but our thinking evangelical, we, I think is pretty common between, let's say, you know, the evangelical world between, let's say, the Alliance Church. We're pretty close to Alliance Church, Baptists and all that. And the reason I bring that up is if that's your culture, and I would say even the charismatic culture in general is that when we read this passage, because the Lord's Prayer begins before that, with this thought, and when you pray, right, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love prayer, standing in the synagogues and on the street corners.

00;28;05;17 - 00;28;29;10
Murray Dueck
So this is, chapter six, verse five onwards. I tell you the truth, they receive their full reward. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your father who is unseen. Then your father who sees you. What you have done in secret reward you right and just just that passage that again, you know, in, you know, what does that mean?

00;28;29;10 - 00;28;41;25
Murray Dueck
How is the church interpreted that through its history? So again, see, Lewis would say for every modern book you read, read two ancient ones, right. Or read the church Fathers every hundred years back. Right.

00;28;42;00 - 00;28;44;19
Joshua Hoffert
You could read one dead guy and one living guy.

00;28;44;21 - 00;28;58;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah, but but we don't do that. No. And if you read one of these dead guys and this is a typical interpretation of this passage. So this is, a book, a great little book. I'll hold it up. Now, now that I know this is being filmed.

00;28;59;00 - 00;29;00;12
Joshua Hoffert


00;29;00;14 - 00;29;25;14
Murray Dueck
On Union with God by Albert the Great. So this guy, you know, good scholastic, Catholic scholastic guy, but really had a desire for a life of prayer. And we're talking about 1250. This was probably written and this is a classic church interpretation both east and west of this passage. let's see here. Hence, I'll just for now rip out the little piece.

00;29;25;16 - 00;29;53;18
Murray Dueck
Hence it is written. But when you pray, go into your room, i.e. enter the innermost abode of your heart, the abode of your heart, and shut the door, of your senses, and with a pure heart, free conscience and unfeigned faith, and pray to the father in secret. Okay, so the reason I say that we've always interpreted that in my culture and I think in evangelicalism, go to your closet and pray.

00;29;53;18 - 00;30;12;09
Murray Dueck
Well, that can be walking on the beach. It can be a little prayer room. It could be. But we interpret as a physical space. Yeah. When the church never interpreted this as physical space. So. Right. So I think everybody just symbolically when we when if I would tell you the parable of don't build your house on the on the sand and on the rock, what am I talking about?

00;30;12;12 - 00;30;24;15
Murray Dueck
Your house. So why am I interpreting a room in the house as an actual room when the biblical precedent is interpreted as you. Right, right. So we're we're not even following our own. The same.

00;30;24;16 - 00;30;25;24
Joshua Hoffert
Consistency. Yeah.

00;30;25;26 - 00;30;45;05
Murray Dueck
But but again, you have to have to realize, I think the point I want to make here is that here Jesus is making a new covenant, setting it up like Moses. And one of the things he's talking about is, guys, we're going to talk adultery. We're going to talk about prayer. We're going to talk about almsgiving. We're going to talk about divorce.

00;30;45;07 - 00;31;04;18
Murray Dueck
And how do we deal with all of these things in the heart? Because he's saying, don't look at a woman with lust in your heart, right? You go to your heart in here and you pray from there. That's how you that's right. And he's laying out. He's laying out. This is what we've talked about, guys. How do we do this?

00;31;04;20 - 00;31;11;12
Murray Dueck
We step into this place that can be full of junk, and we start to clean it out by inner prayer, by stepping into the room.

00;31;11;14 - 00;31;13;01
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;31;13;04 - 00;31;38;06
Murray Dueck
And I hope everybody just went, you know, I hope there was a mic drop there like I do. Because again, you've never heard this in your, you know, charismatic evangelical world, but that's pretty classical church teaching there, right? I mean, if you go back, you're going to find that everywhere. Yeah. And, before we even move forward, it's an important thought and what we're going to build on how to do that quite a bit moving forward.

00;31;38;09 - 00;31;42;16
Murray Dueck
But, this is laying up that practice.

00;31;42;18 - 00;32;07;17
Joshua Hoffert
Well, and and if you think about it this way, just kind of tracking with the flow of Jesus's teaching, right, where he talks about, committing adultery in the heart, committing, murder in the heart. Yeah. and, you know, he goes down the list of, I don't know that he references all ten commandments, but he reference I can't which ones he does, but it's a it's a it's a good, healthy chunk of them.

00;32;07;19 - 00;32;32;03
Joshua Hoffert
And he's essentially then saying, in the, in the preamble to the Lord's Prayer where he talks about the inner life of prayer, he's essentially saying, you're the eyes. And going back to what we've been talking about. The eyes of the heart aren't looking at anger or lust, right? Because he's going, you already lusted in your heart. You were already angry because you were looking at anger.

00;32;32;06 - 00;32;51;07
Joshua Hoffert
You were looking at lust. Right? And he's going, no, not enter into the secret place and your father is there and see. Yeah. What have you started doing? You've started turning your gaze away from those things. So you've started turning your gaze towards the father within. You know, going back to the great quote from Macarius the Great.

00;32;51;13 - 00;33;00;13
Murray Dueck
Oh, I was just going to read it right now. I was I was looking up at the book at this exact I got, oh, where is that quote? I've got it right there. And then you said that. Okay, there you go. I'm going to get it.

00;33;00;13 - 00;33;13;16
Joshua Hoffert
Marie's grabbing the book. So there's the we've we've we've referenced this a few different times, but it's a great summation. Hold on. I think when you're looking at Matthew five six and seven, it's a great summation of,

00;33;13;18 - 00;33;16;29
Murray Dueck
Of you guys have to watch the visual of what my eyes did there when.

00;33;17;01 - 00;33;18;16
Joshua Hoffert
I know that's right.

00;33;18;19 - 00;33;21;13
Murray Dueck
You guys listening to this and audio, go to YouTube and watch it because.

00;33;21;16 - 00;33;40;14
Joshua Hoffert
You can do that. Yeah. So so Mercury is a great kind of in a way sums up what Jesus's teaching is on the interior way. in Matthew five six and seven. and so Murray's going to bring this up in just as I read it. Right within the heart are unfathomable.

00;33;40;14 - 00;33;41;24
Murray Dueck
That's right, that's right.

00;33;42;00 - 00;33;44;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.

00;33;44;10 - 00;33;45;18
Murray Dueck
okay. there it is.

00;33;45;19 - 00;33;47;22
Joshua Hoffert
I mean, I could I could almost quote it.

00;33;47;24 - 00;33;49;27
Murray Dueck
I'm sure. Yeah, it's it's something.

00;33;49;27 - 00;33;52;03
Joshua Hoffert
That dragons and lions are, they're.

00;33;52;03 - 00;33;56;18
Murray Dueck
It's so foundational. for, you know,

00;33;56;20 - 00;34;02;28
Joshua Hoffert
Well, for understanding, for understanding this whole inner life dynamic. Yeah.

00;34;02;28 - 00;34;10;10
Murray Dueck
Well, there. Let's see here. Sorry. Just take me a second. I just got my glasses on for this.

00;34;10;12 - 00;34;32;13
Joshua Hoffert
So that's this is. But this is essential. There we go. I found it where Jesus is bringing us to the point where we starting. We're starting to look away from the external temptations and into the interior life where the father is present. Right? So go ahead. Imma.

00;34;32;15 - 00;34;54;17
Murray Dueck
okay. I'll even start a little bit before everybody. I just, because this is what we're talking about. And remember, this is what Jesus is talking about. This inner world, heart. What's going on in there alongside the. And so this is a quote from a great book, if you're into the Art of prayer, an Orthodox anthology.

00;34;54;19 - 00;35;18;28
Murray Dueck
by Timothy where as editor who is now Callistus, where he's passed away, unfortunately. but, it's a little quote on prayer of the heart by lots of people. So in the introduction, we're going to hit this quote by Macarius, which is worth reading. But, I will just read that little paragraph before the term heart is a particular significance to the orthodox doctrine of men.

00;35;19;04 - 00;35;42;00
Murray Dueck
When people in the West today speak of the heart, they usually mean the emotions and affections. But in the Bible, as in most ascetic texts, desert fathers, the church, the heart has a far wider connotation. It is a primary organ of man's being, whether physical or spiritual. It is the center of life, the determining principle of all our activities and aspirations, which is what Jesus is trying to get across in this passage.

00;35;42;00 - 00;36;03;28
Murray Dueck
All right, guys, if you look at a woman who loves, you've already committed adultery in your heart, right? That's right. That's the central Oregon of your spiritual life. As such, it's a determining principle of all our activities and aspirations. As such, the heart obviously includes the affections and emotions, but it includes much else besides, it embraces an effect.

00;36;03;28 - 00;36;28;07
Murray Dueck
Everything that goes on to comprise what we call a person. Okay, here we go. So now he's going to proof text it with a desert father quote the harmonies of Saint Makarios develop the idea of the heart. And here it is. Here's a quote. The heart governs and reigns over the whole bodily organism. And when grace possesses the ranges of the heart, it rules over all the members of the members of the body and the thoughts.

00;36;28;10 - 00;36;53;01
Murray Dueck
That's got to learn how to pray and do that. That's what Jesus is about to talk about. For there in the heart is the mind and all the thoughts of the soul and its expectation. And in this way grace penetrates to all the members of the body within the heart or unfathomable depths. There are reception rooms and bed chambers and doors and porches, and many offices and passages, and it is a workshop of righteousness and wickedness in it.

00;36;53;01 - 00;37;12;21
Murray Dueck
Death in it is life. The heart is Christ Palace. There Christ the King comes to take his rest with the angels and the spirits of the saints, and he dwells there walking within it and placing his kingdom there. The heart is but a small vessel, and yet dragons and lions are there, and they're poisonous creatures, and all the treasures of wickedness, rough and uneven paths.

00;37;12;21 - 00;37;26;27
Murray Dueck
Are there a gaping chasm there? Likewise is God. There is the angels there life and the kingdom there light and the apostles, the heavenly cities and treasures of grace. All things are there in the heart.

00;37;26;29 - 00;37;30;05
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Big well. So?

00;37;30;07 - 00;37;47;02
Murray Dueck
So what do you mean, mind in the heart. So everybody got offense the mind to reveal. this child will cause the rising of many. So the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. So if you're like, what does it mean, mind and heart. Just think about you're doing really, really good. And then, you have a fight with your wife on the way to church.

00;37;47;04 - 00;37;55;07
Murray Dueck
What comes out of your heart? Oh, yeah. You run out of money, you're doing really well. And then you're like, oh, you know what's really in your heart comes up under pressure.

00;37;55;12 - 00;38;21;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Have you ever have you ever laid awake at night, unable to go to sleep because you can't stop thinking about something. Yeah. That's that's that brings anxiety or fear. Maybe it's anger. Maybe you're frustrated with something that happened. You know, the thoughts of the heart. There's actually in Sunday's Psalm 64, I think it's Psalm 64 six talks about the the deep heart of man that devises schemes and iniquities.

00;38;21;13 - 00;38;40;04
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah. And, lays its plans. So you've got you've got the, that place of the heart that we're so unaware of, right. Which is what, you know, and in a sense, what McCaffrey's is talking about there. You're going to find dragons and lions, but also there you find the heavenly city.

00;38;40;07 - 00;38;59;17
Murray Dueck
And so so we can love people there. Sometimes there's charismatics, we have faith and we don't know why it. Why do I believe I can do this? Well, where is that coming from? Well, it's from in your heart, right? We feel joy. We feel the presence of God. But what else? We judge our brother. We have lust. We have anger, you know.

00;38;59;19 - 00;39;12;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah, it's all coming from there. And that's what Macarius do. You have lions and tigers in their chambers of wickedness and also righteousness. And and they should not be. It needs to be cleaned out.

00;39;12;12 - 00;39;32;25
Joshua Hoffert
And that's what Jesus is talking about. And that's what he's talking. Five, six and seven is cleaning out the heart. And see, the thing is, when most people, I've got a there's a few things I want to say when most people, think about when Jesus says, you know, don't be angry. Don't lust this kind of stuff.

00;39;32;25 - 00;39;52;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right? They hear it as all the don'ts. And so the way that they they read something like that and, you know, I, you know, you've heard it said don't murder. I'm saying you've got you're angry with your brother and you shouldn't be angry with your brother. Right. And so what they do is they struggle against anger. Right. And so they fight anger or they or it's, you know, you're committing adultery in the heart.

00;39;52;23 - 00;40;24;05
Joshua Hoffert
Oh my goodness. You know how many people have read that and just totally beat themselves up because they can't stop the lustful thoughts from coming up? Right. We were talking about this earlier, too. I sent you an article the other day about impulsive and intrusive thoughts. Yes. Yeah. There's a whole psychological very important. There's well, there's a whole there's a whole realm of psychology that's trying to help people deal with intrusive and impulsive thoughts, which would be what Jesus is talking about here at the anger you have towards your brother that you can't seem to overcome, and the lust you have towards other people that you can't seem to overcome.

00;40;24;08 - 00;40;41;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And and he talks about, you know, just talking about the hurt you have towards brothers that have hurt you. You know, someone hits you on the cheek, return for them. Don't hit them back. Right. He's talking about dealing with these things. And so my point is people read that and they go, okay, don't be angry. Don't be angry.

00;40;41;13 - 00;40;45;01
Joshua Hoffert
Don't be angry. Don't be angry. Right. That's how they try and deal with it. Or they read that.

00;40;45;01 - 00;40;46;15
Murray Dueck
Don't think about pink elephants. Don't think.

00;40;46;15 - 00;41;04;26
Joshua Hoffert
About it. Exactly right. And then what do you do? Yeah. Don't lust, don't lost don't lust don't lust. And so you make a central fixture of the thought life, the thing you're trying to avoid. And when you do that you make total room for it. It's like the, the old adage when you're learning to drive, right, you don't want to stare at the tree that you're passing.

00;41;04;26 - 00;41;25;05
Joshua Hoffert
You stare at the center road because you tend to navigate towards the thing you're looking at. you know, that's a good analogy. It's it. Well, it's also it's it is. It's how human life. Right? Stop looking at the tree. So then what happens is people go, oh, Jesus said to pray this way. And they offered the Lord's Prayer.

00;41;25;08 - 00;41;44;21
Joshua Hoffert
And so they turned the Lord's Prayer into an external function. Right. And so you're supposed to say these things, and then there's books written about it, this good books written about it. Yeah. But the The Lord's Prayer becomes a de facto thing to do, or the thing that we say right, or the, the concept we try and understand prayer from right.

00;41;44;21 - 00;41;50;15
Joshua Hoffert
Our father who art in heaven. And then we've got a whole chapter on what that means. And those chapters can be good, right?

00;41;50;15 - 00;41;51;03
Murray Dueck
Or no.

00;41;51;04 - 00;41;57;27
Joshua Hoffert
Abstract it. We can call them our father instead of the father, right? Or even or even father right.

00;41;57;28 - 00;41;59;13
Murray Dueck
Father period. In the Old.

00;41;59;13 - 00;42;11;16
Joshua Hoffert
Testament, exactly who that. Yeah, hallowed be your name. And so we got to understand what that means. So we turn it into a teaching. Right? We've gotten right back to Western didactic exegetical understanding of Scripture. Right. And so we.

00;42;11;16 - 00;42;26;22
Murray Dueck
And everybody I, you know, you know, we we throw it a point there because I'm caffeinated and I'm just going to keep talking for it. Sorry, Josh, I apologize, but I'm still doing it. That's all right. and it's important again, as Josh is talking here, too, I mean, the Lord's Prayer, we should repeat it often, for sure.

00;42;26;25 - 00;42;44;26
Murray Dueck
But when we make it a point form. This is how you pray. Okay, so that's right. We're going to glorify God, your king. We're going to make it about your kingdom. I'm going to pray about that for a while. God, where do I want your kingdom to come? That's the American politics. That would be nice. what's going on in Bangladesh?

00;42;44;26 - 00;42;51;23
Murray Dueck
Okay, that's your kingdom. Let's go down to the next point. Yeah. your will be done. Okay, Lord, ask your will to be done.

00;42;51;25 - 00;42;52;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;42;52;04 - 00;43;09;23
Murray Dueck
Now. And I'm going to ask for my provision. What do I need today? Oh, Lord, I need. Okay. What's the next point you get? Oh, now I got to forgive. Who am I mad at right now? Let's go through those. And then so you're, you know, we're turning. We start it, we can turn it into a checklist or we can also just make it rote.

00;43;09;25 - 00;43;10;10
Murray Dueck
I just pray.

00;43;10;10 - 00;43;11;08
Joshua Hoffert
That. Yeah, that's right.

00;43;11;14 - 00;43;26;25
Murray Dueck
Being a Christian, you just pray this. And both of those are kind of a ditch on each side of the road here. When Jesus is saying, you know, we're talking about an inner prayer life that's supposed to transform you inside out and work on this heart thing. Right? So blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

00;43;26;26 - 00;43;34;22
Murray Dueck
Blessed are the poor in spirit, right? So there's a kingdom of heaven, like there's you know, that's is Jesus's context here.

00;43;34;24 - 00;44;02;05
Joshua Hoffert
So that's right. Yeah. So that so then with that said, the question, the question of will, how do we pray the Lord's Prayer. Right. What you were just saying like, well, okay, we got to make God's name big. Alright, God, we glorify your name. You're our father in heaven. We hallowed be your name. We glorify your name. Okay, now who do I forgive and you know, all that stuff like the question becomes for many people is I'm struggling with anger.

00;44;02;05 - 00;44;26;25
Joshua Hoffert
I'm struggling with lust. I don't know, I put those at the central fixture. And then my prayer. The fundamental question about my prayer doesn't address the issue of the heart, because it's an external format, right? That goes, well, let me look at the externals and then pray them externally. Right. And so how do I pray the Lord's Prayer is, is it totally forgets the five verses before the Lord's Prayer?

00;44;26;26 - 00;44;43;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. The 510 verses before the Lord's Prayer, which are all about entering the secret place of the heart. And so the question isn't, how do I pray the Lord's Prayer? The question is, how do I enter the secret room? And then from the because because that's the context for the Lord's Prayer is Jesus second?

00;44;43;06 - 00;44;44;01
Murray Dueck
Sure.

00;44;44;04 - 00;44;44;24
Joshua Hoffert
So where you.

00;44;44;24 - 00;44;46;12
Murray Dueck
Go and then you pray.

00;44;46;13 - 00;45;04;06
Joshua Hoffert
This is where you go, and then you pray. Exactly. And he's saying it. So if you just if you turn the Lord's Prayer into this external practice where you have to go through a set of questions and follow a list of commands, then you're just doing the things that the Pharisees are doing that they say, don't be like the ones in the synagogues who pray so that they can be seen.

00;45;04;08 - 00;45;26;26
Joshua Hoffert
So you see guys go into the secret place, and that word means the innermost chamber of your house, right? So go into the innermost chamber, rehearse, go into your heart. Your father who sees it says this. He says, go into your room. When you shut the door, pray to your father who is in the secret place, and your father, who sees in secret, will reward you openly.

00;45;27;02 - 00;45;46;19
Joshua Hoffert
So your father, essentially what Jesus is saying is your father is in the secret place, right? This is the innermost chamber. And he sees you in the secret place in the innermost chamber, directing your heart to him. So Jesus is method of dealing with in the context of all of Matthew five and six, that you know you're angry.

00;45;46;21 - 00;46;07;27
Joshua Hoffert
Don't be angry. You're lustful. Don't be lustful. The the question isn't, how do I struggle against anger and lust? Or how do I say this prayer? The question is, how do I enter the heart and see the father there? Because when I do that now he is the tree I'm looking at, right? Yes. So now I can road driver.

00;46;07;27 - 00;46;35;29
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. I'm I'm no longer fixing anger in the midst of my in the midst of my gaze. I'm no longer fixing lust in the midst of my gaze. And then actually, even Jesus says he goes on after the Lord's Prayer to talk about, laying up treasures on earth. Right? So now he's talking about greed. And so, so he's dealing with all of these very instinctual human mo motives and going, actually bring yourself back.

00;46;35;29 - 00;46;57;29
Joshua Hoffert
And this is what the fathers would say. Bring your senses back to your inner man, to that place of the heart, and redirect your focus and your gaze to him. And from there player starts to flow. And this is what prayer looks like from the place of occupying the heart, the secret place, the innermost chamber there with the father.

00;46;57;29 - 00;47;22;24
Joshua Hoffert
And this is what we discover when we spend time in silence and solitude. The point is not to discipline the mind to be quiet, although that can be one of the side benefits. Any part of it, right? There can be part of it. The point is that when I spend time in silence, when I spend time in solitude, I slowly become aware of the presence of another.

00;47;22;26 - 00;47;25;28
Joshua Hoffert
I realize I'm not by myself there.

00;47;25;28 - 00;47;30;25
Murray Dueck
You just. Boy, did you ever hit the middle of the bullseye with that. Although the tree thing was pretty good to.

00;47;30;27 - 00;47;32;14
Joshua Hoffert
That, that that was.

00;47;32;17 - 00;47;34;01
Murray Dueck
Really good.

00;47;34;04 - 00;47;52;18
Joshua Hoffert
it's that. Well, you know, I'm I'm two for two. Then and the, the I, the first thing I become aware of, well, the first thing I become aware of in silence, in solitude is myself. Right. And that's where I start to see my own thoughts. I feel my own anger, maybe. Right, I, I, I become aware of myself.

00;47;52;23 - 00;48;05;02
Joshua Hoffert
But then as I sit in that place of quiet, I start to recognize I'm not by myself. There's a and everybody that. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead. No, you're going, you go ahead. I'm interruptible. Go ahead.

00;48;05;04 - 00;48;23;26
Murray Dueck
Okay. So, and again, you know, you know, Saint Augustine said God is closer to me than my own breath. I believe that, yeah. Or true Saint Teresa of Avila. Something she said something like, if I would have known that Christ it deemed to make my little soul, my little heart his home, I would not have left them alone there.

00;48;24;00 - 00;48;26;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So that's right. Yeah. Right.

00;48;26;07 - 00;48;51;01
Murray Dueck
And and and so we're I mean, but the reason I'm interrupting is because I just want to point out that. So for most of us in our Christianity, it's very external. You know, we're doing stuff, we're going to meetings. We're even reading our Bibles where which is good. They're not bad things, but most of the time, as Saint Teresa said, if I would have known that Christ deemed to make my heart is home, I would not have left them alone there so often, most of the time.

00;48;51;01 - 00;49;09;03
Murray Dueck
Where do we do? Because it's either about mental learning or it's about serving. And we don't realize, hey, we're supposed to go in here and there's somebody there. He's he's there. And and to to that. This is a skill. And it's not just a skill. It should be a very high value.

00;49;09;03 - 00;49;11;18
Joshua Hoffert
It's a way of life. It's not even a skill. It's a way of life.

00;49;11;18 - 00;49;36;00
Murray Dueck
It's a way of life. And the reason that is important is what you believe is how you behave. Right? So your your beliefs are affected by behavior. And if we really believed Christ was on the throne of our heart, it's like I people are freaking out. In Ephesians three, Paul's in prison. He says, I pray God would strengthen you where in the inner man so Christ may dwell in your heart by faith may because remember, they're freaking out.

00;49;36;00 - 00;49;39;11
Murray Dueck
Their hearts are full of fear. It's like, no, no, no, we got to get that out of there.

00;49;39;12 - 00;49;39;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;49;40;00 - 00;49;55;21
Murray Dueck
Christ may dwell in your heart. We got it. We got to focus on something else in here. Right. So you would know how high and wide and long and deep is the love of Christ that surpasses this thing. A notice head knowledge that you may be filled to all the fullness of God. Where do we get filled with the Spirit of God?

00;49;55;21 - 00;50;00;01
Murray Dueck
So Christ. For he sent the Spirit of His Son into our heart, who cries, ABBA, father!

00;50;00;02 - 00;50;00;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right? That's right.

00;50;00;23 - 00;50;26;21
Murray Dueck
This complete redirection of value. What does that look like? Valuing and spending time developing this inner chamber alone with Christ and discovering the love of the father. There. And it becomes such a value. You add this into your daily life, and Lectio Divina does this, and the examen does this. And, sanctified imagination. These are all tools of this.

00;50;26;23 - 00;50;47;16
Murray Dueck
But at the end of each of those, if you're practicing it, you'll notice there's peace, there's rest, there's encounter there. You have started. You function here, right? It gets you there, it brings you there. But it needs to become this this lifestyle of, as Jesus says, here's how you do it, guys. Right? Right. Anyway, another caffeinated right?

00;50;47;16 - 00;51;22;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. No, that was good. It it's not the, the the way of life is not. And so what typically characterizes at least in my upbringing, evangelical Christianity was and the language of it was the struggle against sin. And and I just, I just look at it now and I go, man, if you're struggling, if you spend your life struggling against sin, then what have you, what have you grown in knowledge of sin and the ways it works within your members, boy.

00;51;22;19 - 00;51;44;20
Joshua Hoffert
And so what do we struggle with? We struggle with presenting our heart to the father and being with him there. Like Jesus says, I stand at the door and knock. So and I think, here's the thing, right? And this may blow. This blows my mind. This may blow. Marriage may be the only one who understands this out of everybody we talked to, because he talks with father Mike.

00;51;44;22 - 00;52;11;16
Joshua Hoffert
When Jesus stands at the door and knocks, is he, and the and the door is the door of the heart. Right. So regard and it right is he's standing on the inside of the door or the outside of the door. Right. And because, because the thing is, when he stands at the door and knocks, what he wants you to do is come in with him and be with him.

00;52;11;18 - 00;52;36;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right. This is the thing was, when you when you realize that he is already inviting you there to that place because the Fi says right there the father is in secret and sees in secret. So he's knocking, hoping that you open the door to come in with him, right? To come together. Not while he's trying to find a way in.

00;52;36;04 - 00;52;44;24
Joshua Hoffert
He's already there and he's trying and he's going. Can you finally find the way in? Because I'm already here, right?

00;52;44;26 - 00;52;46;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah, because we've made it all external and.

00;52;46;27 - 00;52;47;26
Joshua Hoffert
Made it all external.

00;52;47;27 - 00;53;08;00
Murray Dueck
Right? And, you know, as charismatics, I think this would be a good put. I mean, why did we become charismatics? Come, Holy Spirit. Right. Suddenly there is this encounter with this person. The presence of God comes, which is beautiful and lovely and. All right, give me more, please. Like as much as you can. But but that experience awakens you to.

00;53;08;02 - 00;53;08;13
Joshua Hoffert
That.

00;53;08;16 - 00;53;18;18
Murray Dueck
Sensitivity. We pick up what the demonic is doing. We become aware of people's, how they are feeling, what meetings feel like when the Holy Spirit's moving. But that's still.

00;53;18;20 - 00;53;19;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;53;19;05 - 00;53;25;12
Murray Dueck
A step towards okay, I am aware of a real being.

00;53;25;14 - 00;53;25;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;53;25;24 - 00;53;41;19
Murray Dueck
Here. Oh, here. That's right. But he's a member. A member of Saint Simeon says it's quite, a, quite a lot in his right writing. When God first showed up, he saw the divine light. It was out here. But the next time he encountered it, was it in his heart in here.

00;53;41;20 - 00;53;42;07
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;53;42;09 - 00;54;08;29
Murray Dueck
Right. And and when God introduces us to his presence, where he's trying to bring us a two in maturity is in here, right? That so we're not negating all of these things like modern worship. And, you know, Toronto was like soaking in like, let's do the next stage. Let's put on soaking with the synagogues, which is awesome. But there's another level here.

00;54;08;29 - 00;54;19;22
Murray Dueck
There's another place. And Jesus is calling us to it, which is learning to meet with the father. As Josh is saying internally here, where he already is, he's already there and fighting is knocking on our heart.

00;54;19;22 - 00;54;20;07
Joshua Hoffert
And yeah.

00;54;20;11 - 00;54;36;10
Murray Dueck
Oh, he's already in here like and you know, our minds distract us, busyness distracts us, worries distract us. But you know, Jesus is like, come. That's right. Into the innermost closet. Meet with your father in secret. He's there.

00;54;36;13 - 00;54;38;07
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;54;38;09 - 00;54;39;18
Murray Dueck
So I got a little carried away there.

00;54;39;18 - 00;54;57;09
Joshua Hoffert
There's there's a, quote from Charles Day, for Carl, I think for Carl. I think that's how you say his name. All right. I'm. I'm still learning Foucault's focal vocal, T or D, anyway. Catholic mystic, French explorer.

00;54;57;12 - 00;54;59;19
Murray Dueck
I lost my my Frenchie friends. Yeah.

00;54;59;19 - 00;55;11;08
Joshua Hoffert
Tell me. Yeah. That's right. And maybe someone can give us a review about my pronunciation of, the French word fuc. So I think that's right. but.

00;55;11;08 - 00;55;12;08
Murray Dueck
C could be an S.

00;55;12;08 - 00;55;31;19
Joshua Hoffert
They're not good too, so maybe. Anyway. Clue. So, I like I like his, his has a there's a short book, meditations on the Words of Jesus called, meditations of a hermit from, Charles de Foucault. And he says this and, it's a really good if you can find a copy of it. It's a really good book.

00;55;31;21 - 00;55;57;17
Joshua Hoffert
He says, here, our Lord, he's talking about the, this particular passage here, our Lord gives us the precept of solitary prayer. We are to shut ourselves into our chamber and pray in solitude to our father, who sees our secret thoughts. So besides our cherished prayer before the Blessed Sacrament. And, you know, you can kind of think for a charismatic worship service right now that Catholics would get upset with me for comparing the two.

00;55;57;17 - 00;56;22;17
Joshua Hoffert
But, you know, just trying to help our charismatic brothers see, so besides our church prayer before the Blessed Sacrament, besides the prayers in common with others, think prophetic ministry for charismatic people. Nice. our. Besides the prayers in common with others, when our Lord is in the midst of us, gathered together in prayer, let us love to practice solitary and secret prayer.

00;56;22;20 - 00;56;37;00
Joshua Hoffert
Prayer in which no one sees us but our heavenly Father, in which we are absolutely alone with him. When no one knows we are praying. What sweet intimacy to open our hearts freely, unseen by others, at the knees of our father.

00;56;37;02 - 00;56;37;16
Murray Dueck
Amen.

00;56;37;22 - 00;56;51;26
Joshua Hoffert
And and so that's the inner way that we're talking about. So the the Lord's Prayer can't be practiced. Apart from that, it's not an external form. And and in fact, actually, if as, as we go over this, which I'm sure we'll spend a little more time with.

00;56;51;28 - 00;56;54;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah, we're kind of got half way again today, which is great.

00;56;54;19 - 00;57;14;26
Joshua Hoffert
And we might have only given a quarter of the way, because if you look at the Lord's Prayer, I think you can I think you can break the Lord's Prayer apart. And, it, it actually addresses the, oh, this is coming out of left field. I think it addresses every stage of brain development that we go through.

00;57;14;29 - 00;57;27;19
Joshua Hoffert
And the ways in which we experience trauma and our brains are, are, malformed because of the experiences we have. I think it addresses an interesting cause.

00;57;27;22 - 00;57;28;24
Murray Dueck
I've never thought of it that way.

00;57;28;27 - 00;57;38;26
Joshua Hoffert
And helps us to understand that Jesus is actually talking about making us whole again through the Lord's Prayer, which is the inner way, which is the secret place which.

00;57;38;26 - 00;57;41;08
Murray Dueck
I would make a lot of sense.

00;57;41;10 - 00;57;43;17
Joshua Hoffert
would, wouldn't it? And then it all called.

00;57;43;20 - 00;57;44;28
Murray Dueck
Are you going to break this down next week?

00;57;45;00 - 00;57;59;28
Joshua Hoffert
We can do that. Yeah, we can, we can do that. And then it kind of all culminates in the lamp is the eye of the body who and the and the lamp that is single, that is whole, that is brought back together again.

00;58;00;02 - 00;58;02;29
Murray Dueck
You're right, I forgot that. That is right.

00;58;03;00 - 00;58;27;20
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. So the whole thing is about coming back to yourself and reconstituting who you are. And again, this is this is again another one that's right there being complete or whole as your heavenly father is complete or whole, being perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. So how does that happen? Occupying the place of the heart, presenting yourself to him.

00;58;27;23 - 00;58;52;04
Joshua Hoffert
He sees you going through the stages of wholeness and maturing. As Jesus brings you back to your senses and you find this place of union in unity with him and in yourself that produces the man of great light. And and you know, this is now we're going stages and stages deeper into this, right as we're talking about the inner way and, and what prayer actually is.

00;58;52;07 - 00;59;22;16
Joshua Hoffert
But prayer simply to say prayer is in this context, the primary way we think about prayer can't be being prayed for on a Sunday morning or offering formal prayers on a Sunday morning, or whatever. The gathering is having a lovely experience in a charismatic way, through, through, worship, partaking of the sacrament of communion, although that's one very important element.

00;59;22;18 - 00;59;40;02
Joshua Hoffert
So looking at Charles de Foucault and what we're talking about, we're going know these are external forms that have to flow from that place of internal occupancy. And so, you know, some people are going to hear what we're saying and they're going to go, oh, well, that's the baptism of the spirit. But that's not really what we're talking about either.

00;59;40;02 - 00;59;44;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right. There's there is there. Yes and no in a way really.

00;59;44;14 - 00;59;45;07
Murray Dueck
A beginning of.

00;59;45;07 - 00;59;45;25
Joshua Hoffert
It. Yeah.

00;59;45;25 - 00;59;50;19
Murray Dueck
But, you know, Jesus said, out of your heart, out of your heart will flow rivers of living light.

00;59;50;19 - 00;59;51;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Yeah.

00;59;51;23 - 00;59;54;11
Murray Dueck
living water. Sorry. It's continual flow.

00;59;54;12 - 00;59;54;29
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;59;55;02 - 01;00;08;24
Murray Dueck
Right. It's not a one time experience and we're done with it. Yeah. So, you know, as charismatics, I'm. But I hear this a lot. You know, when I got saved, I hadn't or I first got filled with the spirit. I had six months of joy. What have it.

01;00;08;27 - 01;00;10;05
Joshua Hoffert
All right. So. Right. Right, right.

01;00;10;06 - 01;00;30;21
Murray Dueck
Well, if you're going to what happens everybody is that if you, you know, Lord, have mercy upon me. As I say this, if, let's say you have six months of joy, I have this joy in my heart. That's the place we're talking about. You got that joy. But if you you have to learn how to keep the river free of debris, or you got to learn how to keep that fire burning.

01;00;30;25 - 01;00;44;28
Murray Dueck
So if even in church, if you're going to make it all about serving and doing, or are you going to make your church all about head knowledge and learning stuff, and you're not learning how to keep the fire of your heart burning? Yeah, it eventually goes out. That's right. Right. And then we go, where do all my joy go?

01;00;45;00 - 01;00;58;16
Murray Dueck
Well, we're not pastoring our own heart. We're not working on this inner relationship. It was there. It's still there. Yeah, but the the junk of life. Fears and worries and anger and bitterness close to the heart, right?

01;00;58;16 - 01;00;59;06
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;00;59;08 - 01;01;14;04
Murray Dueck
But why are you supposed to rejoice always? Rejoicing opens. That's right. What about, prayer with thanksgiving? Thanksgiving opens the heart. That's right. Very simple things. But we forgot how to pastor our own heart. Yeah, that the heart is always opening or it's closing.

01;01;14;06 - 01;01;14;20
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;01;14;21 - 01;01;19;21
Murray Dueck
And inner prayer opens the heart for the river to continually to flow.

01;01;19;22 - 01;01;20;07
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;01;20;08 - 01;01;21;22
Murray Dueck
And that's what they're talking about.

01;01;21;26 - 01;01;22;08
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;01;22;08 - 01;01;31;08
Murray Dueck
And and everybody, if you're like, well, where can I read more of this? I'd highly, highly recommend in every evangelical I know would read this book, I.

01;01;31;11 - 01;01;33;26
Joshua Hoffert
Transformation book that I wrote. Right. That's what you're going.

01;01;33;26 - 01;01;38;02
Murray Dueck
To see that one. But I was also going to say on the same level as you, that book.

01;01;38;04 - 01;01;42;28
Joshua Hoffert
Keepers of the presents, the book that Murray wrote. Well, that's a good book to.

01;01;43;00 - 01;01;46;00
Murray Dueck
But, the book to read, everyone is the.

01;01;46;00 - 01;01;49;10
Joshua Hoffert
Silent Fire collection, the Desert Fathers Meditations.

01;01;49;11 - 01;01;49;28
Murray Dueck
That's actually.

01;01;49;28 - 01;01;53;12
Joshua Hoffert
Super good. Everyone. I've just, sorry, but yeah, keep it a read.

01;01;53;17 - 01;02;02;29
Murray Dueck
That is super good. And that would really help you with this. Really would I actually would mean that. But the book I was thinking of practicing, the presence of God by brother in law.

01;02;02;29 - 01;02;04;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's a great one. That's right.

01;02;04;12 - 01;02;21;20
Murray Dueck
And, and and I was given that in my Mennonite Bible College, I, I must say I didn't understand any of it. Sure, I kept looking. How does he do it? But he's talking about this heart transformation and and everyone. You should have that book and, you know, I, I keep it in my bathroom and I, I try to read a little bit every day.

01;02;21;23 - 01;02;23;17
Murray Dueck
So keeping the heart.

01;02;23;17 - 01;02;26;16
Joshua Hoffert
Alive that's the heart of lot is a good one. It's a good idea for.

01;02;26;16 - 01;02;33;13
Murray Dueck
Your own heart. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's it's really good. And and maybe I will just read one more time because I'm sure we need to go here soon.

01;02;33;17 - 01;02;36;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. Both close on this. What? You're going to the past.

01;02;36;22 - 01;03;00;26
Murray Dueck
Well, I want to go back and just read on our union with God. This is A12 very short, concise little chapters of a page. But I would brother Lawrence I think, is, in modern English, pretty accessible. And again, everyone ethereal Christian library. You'll find it there for free, along with a lot of these things, but probably even this book are on Union with God by Albert the Great.

01;03;00;28 - 01;03;12;15
Murray Dueck
And I will just start with what he said previously, just to put it in context, because wouldn't this be nice? But this was expected, right?

01;03;12;18 - 01;03;16;17
Murray Dueck
let's see, where should I start?

01;03;16;19 - 01;03;37;01
Murray Dueck
They have therefore, by the vow of their religious profession. So he's talking to monks and priests, renounced all things pertaining to the soul and body. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth. That is with why? With the knowledge and love, purified of everything of the earth, all our worries and troubles, and therefore he goes.

01;03;37;01 - 01;04;01;10
Murray Dueck
Hence it is written for when you pray, go into your room, i.e. the innermost abode of your heart, and shut the door of your senses, and with your pure heart, free conscience and unfettered faith. So you're, you know, you're you you know, you talk to people about stuff you need to confess. Your faith is strengthened. Pray to your father in secret there.

01;04;01;13 - 01;04;26;05
Murray Dueck
There only will a man attain to this ideal when he has stripped himself of all else. When a holy recollected within himself. You're not worrying about nothing. You're not planning nothing. He has hidden like within. Here in the heart with the river flows. He has hidden from and forgotten the whole world. That he may abide in silence in the presence of Christ, because he's there, right?

01;04;26;07 - 01;04;28;12
Murray Dueck
You're not just abiding in silence. You're abiding.

01;04;28;18 - 01;04;29;05
Joshua Hoffert
With him.

01;04;29;08 - 01;04;54;05
Murray Dueck
You know that I. God, he's there. That's the whole point. There. In solitude of soul, with loving confidence, he makes his desires known to God with all the intensity of his love. You pour forth his heart before him in sincerity and truth until he loses himself in God, then in his heart, enlarged, inflamed, and melted in him. Yet even in the innermost depths.

01;04;54;08 - 01;04;55;19
Joshua Hoffert
So there it is.

01;04;55;21 - 01;05;06;27
Murray Dueck
There it is. And and so everybody. So Albert the Great was kind of a scientist of his day. And N'Diaye basically saying, guys, after everything I've learned and done, this is the most important.

01;05;06;27 - 01;05;10;01
Joshua Hoffert
He's a scientist, a UN union, basically.

01;05;10;04 - 01;05;16;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah. He said all this stuff. He was a university professor, in that in the church back in the 80s. So everything I've taught, everything I've ever.

01;05;16;20 - 01;05;17;23
Joshua Hoffert
Done is the most important.

01;05;18;00 - 01;05;19;10
Murray Dueck
This is the most important.

01;05;19;10 - 01;05;20;13
Joshua Hoffert
And we would agree.

01;05;20;16 - 01;05;23;00
Murray Dueck
The heart of the chamber. And what's there. So there you.

01;05;23;00 - 01;05;33;02
Joshua Hoffert
Go with that murmur. This, as always. awesome. Spending time together. And so everybody, we hope that, this conversation was helpful for you in terms of.

01;05;33;02 - 01;05;34;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And it stirs you things.

01;05;34;15 - 01;05;35;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

01;05;36;00 - 01;05;42;09
Murray Dueck
And everyone like like I'll just point out one thing here. A lot of you, what you're doing right now is but how do you do it.

01;05;42;16 - 01;05;44;02
Joshua Hoffert
Like that's what you're doing.

01;05;44;04 - 01;05;47;12
Murray Dueck
Where do you experience. How do you do it up in your head.

01;05;47;14 - 01;05;48;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;05;48;07 - 01;05;48;26
Murray Dueck
And this part of.

01;05;49;00 - 01;05;51;14
Joshua Hoffert
You don't do it. He does. He's already.

01;05;51;14 - 01;05;55;00
Murray Dueck
There. Part of you. That's the part of you that's good. I really want that.

01;05;55;07 - 01;05;55;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;05;55;18 - 01;05;57;18
Murray Dueck
Where are you experience of that.

01;05;57;20 - 01;06;00;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Lean into that. That's right.

01;06;00;05 - 01;06;01;08
Murray Dueck
Lean into that.

01;06;01;12 - 01;06;02;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;06;02;06 - 01;06;03;04
Murray Dueck
That that's.

01;06;03;06 - 01;06;05;17
Joshua Hoffert
Sometimes. Well sometimes prayer and.

01;06;05;17 - 01;06;06;17
Murray Dueck
That prayer.

01;06;06;18 - 01;06;07;09
Joshua Hoffert
Is.

01;06;07;11 - 01;06;09;21
Murray Dueck
We'll get there. But that's more important.

01;06;09;28 - 01;06;15;24
Joshua Hoffert
Prayer is that desire. Yes. That is prayer.

01;06;15;26 - 01;06;16;06
Murray Dueck
Right?

01;06;16;06 - 01;06;22;28
Joshua Hoffert
Is prayer. Tap into that desire and then sit with it. So we should probably talk about we'll talk more about that. Yeah. We we'll keep.

01;06;22;28 - 01;06;31;09
Murray Dueck
Going and saying what is prayer. Yeah. And because again you guys if you've learned well prayer is a lot of words. I got to pray these things. That's really just the entry point of.

01;06;31;15 - 01;06;32;03
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;06;32;06 - 01;06;37;03
Murray Dueck
That's right. Prayer is what he just said. Yeah. Desiring God from the inner place. That's right. Keeping it.

01;06;37;03 - 01;06;40;04
Joshua Hoffert
Alive. That's that's right.

01;06;40;07 - 01;06;41;14
Murray Dueck
Right. Anyway. Okay.

01;06;41;20 - 01;06;59;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Well, everybody, I've got a, kids baseball game to get to, and, so I appreciate all of you. And, we'll see you next week. So until then, bless you, everybody. I'll be much my friend. And see you guys soon.

01;06;59;16 - 01;07;07;28

what's.

01;07;08;01 - 01;07;08;10

You.