Misconceptions of Prayer, the Teaching of Jesus on Prayer, and How the Fathers Read Scripture Artwork

Voices from the Desert

In the early days of Christianity, men and women fled to the desert and became the wisest sages of their era. Voices from the Desert explores how the wisdom of Ancient Christianity applies to our modern world. Where do the streams of historic Christianity intersect with contemporary Christianity? And how do we come to know God deep in our heart? Join Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck for a deep dive into the mystics, union with God, patristic theology and what it all means in our modern world.

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Voices from the Desert

Misconceptions of Prayer, the Teaching of Jesus on Prayer, and How the Fathers Read Scripture

August 29, 2024 • Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck

When it comes to how Christians are taught prayer, much of the church has been found wanting. The teaching of Jesus on prayer are often overlooked in favor of some occasional concomitant. What was Jesus thinking when he said, "And when you pray..." and why do we ignore these kinds of statements? The way of Jesus is clearly interior prayer and the early church fathers read scripture with that in mind. Join Josh and Murray as they dive in to explore the interior way of prayer!

For more about Josh, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

For more about Murray, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/

To donate to Josh and Murray, visit; https://www.paypal.com/donate?token=iSuZ4y8BDYnoa5OBH5e0T5F6UX0w0bxjfKzBcKhtmLrVZhQ24Y6gJu3uIJox8Q5dvTofJ6Sqa0uF0cXW

00;00;15;24 - 00;00;19;26
Joshua Hoffert
We say the Lord's Prayer corporately. You know, some places do. Yes.

00;00;19;28 - 00;00;29;11
Joshua Hoffert
We don't, we don't. And I said this earlier, right? We don't internalize that. What are the implications of Lord's Prayer? And Jesus doesn't start his.

00;00;29;11 - 00;00;47;09
Joshua Hoffert
Teaching on prayer at the Lord's Prayer, right. He starts it about 5 to 10 verses earlier. He says in verse five. And when you pray, this is the first line in the gospels, Jesus.

00;00;47;11 - 00;00;49;09
Joshua Hoffert
That Jesus starts to.

00;00;49;09 - 00;01;00;07
Joshua Hoffert
Talk about prayer.

00;01;00;10 - 00;01;02;13
Joshua Hoffert
Welcome, everybody.

00;01;02;15 - 00;01;07;05
Murray Dueck
Two voices to go to the desert.

00;01;07;05 - 00;01;11;24
Joshua Hoffert
Desert.

00;01;11;27 - 00;01;20;07
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, oh. We join with the cry of the sand people.

00;01;20;09 - 00;01;24;02
Murray Dueck
They love Jesus to earth.

00;01;24;04 - 00;01;25;24
Joshua Hoffert
So, yeah.

00;01;25;24 - 00;01;30;28
Murray Dueck
You see, we're we're expanding everyone. Our desert portfolio is getting bigger.

00;01;31;00 - 00;01;32;13
Joshua Hoffert
We have,

00;01;32;15 - 00;01;35;28
Joshua Hoffert
We finally rolled the sand people and. Well, I mean, they're.

00;01;36;00 - 00;01;42;28
Murray Dueck
Thinking about that since, like, episode one, you know, it's taken us a how long we've been doing this. For now.

00;01;43;00 - 00;01;45;27
Joshua Hoffert
You're over a year. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

00;01;47;07 - 00;01;51;22
Murray Dueck
Wow. They finally, finally made it. Finally got their big moment.

00;01;51;24 - 00;01;59;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Yeah. I actually my kids today asked me, dad, what's a bantha?

00;01;59;03 - 00;01;59;16
Joshua Hoffert
And I was.

00;01;59;16 - 00;02;10;16
Joshua Hoffert
Like, oh yeah. Well I said it's an animal from Star Wars and what, what kind of animal? And so I had to look it up for them and show them a picture of which is the sand people right there. Panthers.

00;02;10;22 - 00;02;13;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Right. Yeah.

00;02;13;12 - 00;02;37;21
Murray Dueck
I used to be a real when I was a kid. I mean, I'm sure everybody made it my age, probably with two, but a real Star Wars geek, you know, and, and, did you know when they make that laser, laser bolt sound, you know, the the laser guns, right? What they're doing is, you know, if you could try it, everybody, when you have a, I think a telephone pole, especially in street corners, you have a, a wire that comes down from the side of the pool to hold it up into the ground.

00;02;37;24 - 00;02;40;23
Murray Dueck
And if you right that with a piece of metal, it makes that sound.

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Joshua Hoffert
Oh really? That was there. That's one of the ways they got it thing right. Yeah.

00;02;45;21 - 00;02;47;05
Murray Dueck
There's some homework for you. Everyone.

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Joshua Hoffert
I, you know.

00;02;47;24 - 00;02;49;16
Murray Dueck
Mike and Detroit that.

00;02;49;19 - 00;02;51;26
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. And see if you and then record it.

00;02;51;28 - 00;02;52;22
Murray Dueck
And then record it.

00;02;52;27 - 00;02;55;26
Joshua Hoffert
And then you can use it without it being copyrighted because you recorded.

00;02;55;26 - 00;02;57;27
Joshua Hoffert
In. Right.

00;02;58;00 - 00;03;12;26
Joshua Hoffert
That's that there's one of my great I'm going to share one great failure as a parent and one great success as a parent. My great failure as a parent is letting my kids play Lego Star Wars. Before we really watched all the movies.

00;03;13;20 - 00;03;15;08
Murray Dueck
You're not playing this, right? What are.

00;03;15;08 - 00;03;15;25
Joshua Hoffert
You doing?

00;03;15;26 - 00;03;25;19
Joshua Hoffert
I know it so well. What happened was they all knew in episode five that Vader was going to say, I'm your father.

00;03;25;26 - 00;03;27;00
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah. Right.

00;03;27;00 - 00;03;39;15
Joshua Hoffert
Which is like one of the most shocking moments in the trilogy. If you don't know it's coming. But. And so I was waiting for their response and they were like, oh yeah, like Lego Star Wars down.

00;03;39;17 - 00;03;43;17
Joshua Hoffert
It's like, oh gosh, that's right. So all right, so that was.

00;03;43;17 - 00;03;47;07
Joshua Hoffert
That was one of my greatest failures as a parent.

00;03;47;10 - 00;03;48;21
Joshua Hoffert
But, one of.

00;03;48;21 - 00;03;58;03
Joshua Hoffert
My, one of my greatest successes as a parent, is that my kids can identify the Wilhelm Scream in every movie.

00;03;58;05 - 00;03;59;08
Joshua Hoffert
So I don't even.

00;03;59;08 - 00;03;59;22
Murray Dueck
Know what that is.

00;03;59;28 - 00;04;04;26
Joshua Hoffert
Their mercy just. I'm always shocking. Murray. You know, like, hey, Murray, by the way, this is on YouTube.

00;04;04;26 - 00;04;07;08
Joshua Hoffert
Also, Wilhelm scream is.

00;04;07;11 - 00;04;24;06
Joshua Hoffert
The Wilhelm scream. Anybody you can. If you don't know what it is, you can Google it. Wilhelm scream is a scream that was recorded as a sound bite. And it's been used in many, like, hundreds of movies ever since it was first used, like in the 60s or.

00;04;24;06 - 00;04;24;21
Joshua Hoffert
Something.

00;04;24;21 - 00;04;25;12
Murray Dueck
Really.

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Joshua Hoffert
And so once you hear it and you know what it is, you'll hear it in every movie you watch. And it's like an Easter egg. Now that, audio producers put into movies, when someone gets thrown off of off a cliff or off a car or they whatever, it's it's the same sound over and over and over again.

00;04;43;15 - 00;04;45;09
Joshua Hoffert
And so once you've heard it once so.

00;04;45;09 - 00;04;46;11
Joshua Hoffert
Clearly, the man.

00;04;46;11 - 00;04;52;02
Joshua Hoffert
Who picks it up, Savannah, picks it up pretty quickly when she she hears it and goes, oh, dad, there it is.

00;04;52;02 - 00;04;52;15
Joshua Hoffert
You know?

00;04;52;16 - 00;05;06;05
Joshua Hoffert
Wow, that's my great success as a parent is that my kids can recognize the Wilhelm scream, wow. And, yeah. So there you go, guys. That's my vulnerability quota of the day.

00;05;06;05 - 00;05;06;18
Joshua Hoffert
Wow.

00;05;06;18 - 00;05;09;25
Murray Dueck
Well, I'm not even going to do any more Star Wars after that. That cannot be.

00;05;09;25 - 00;05;11;03
Joshua Hoffert
Topped. Wilhelm.

00;05;11;03 - 00;05;13;23
Joshua Hoffert
Scream isn't Star Wars. I'm pretty sure it is, anyway.

00;05;13;25 - 00;05;15;22
Murray Dueck
Well, I just can't drop that piece of trivia.

00;05;15;28 - 00;05;18;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. No, George, I would imagine it.

00;05;18;23 - 00;05;26;16
Murray Dueck
Any, any Star Wars fan probably knows that Darth Vader in Dutch means dark father, so it's kind of.

00;05;26;18 - 00;05;27;19
Joshua Hoffert
Okay, that's trivia.

00;05;27;19 - 00;05;28;28
Joshua Hoffert
Beyond me. I didn't.

00;05;29;01 - 00;05;32;27
Murray Dueck
See that. Yeah. I mean, yeah. So there's a hint, hint in the very first movie.

00;05;33;00 - 00;05;34;16
Joshua Hoffert
That, that.

00;05;34;18 - 00;05;36;03
Murray Dueck
Vader was father. That name.

00;05;36;03 - 00;05;37;15
Joshua Hoffert
Was, you know, wrong.

00;05;37;18 - 00;05;38;05
Joshua Hoffert
In.

00;05;38;07 - 00;05;39;01
Joshua Hoffert
In.

00;05;39;03 - 00;05;41;05
Murray Dueck
Taking out too much caffeine today.

00;05;41;08 - 00;05;45;13
Joshua Hoffert
Do you know in Holland, the who accompanies Santa Claus at Christmas time?

00;05;45;13 - 00;05;48;17
Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't tell me Black Peter.

00;05;48;19 - 00;05;50;15
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah. It's, like the most racist thing I've ever.

00;05;50;15 - 00;05;51;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, in my life.

00;05;51;15 - 00;05;52;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;05;52;09 - 00;05;55;12
Murray Dueck
I wonder if they still do that or he's been kind of shuffled into the back of the band.

00;05;55;12 - 00;06;08;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I, my, my mother in law described it to me. And I like for you black Peter sneaks into your house and throws candy at the little kids. And it's okay for all you Dutch people to wear blackface.

00;06;08;27 - 00;06;12;17
Joshua Hoffert
It's like, oh yeah, oh my goodness.

00;06;12;21 - 00;06;14;28
Joshua Hoffert
I guess Trudeau got away with wearing blackface.

00;06;14;28 - 00;06;24;22
Murray Dueck
So yeah, one of the guys on the Canucks hockey team, he got traded to Arizona and he showed up at a party with blackface. And of course, everybody in the States freaked right out.

00;06;24;22 - 00;06;30;11
Joshua Hoffert
And it's like, what's the problem? I'm sorry. I don't know what's happening here. Right? Right. Yeah. It's like different.

00;06;30;11 - 00;06;34;27
Joshua Hoffert
Different countries, different cultures. Yeah. I when I first heard about Black Peter, I was like.

00;06;34;28 - 00;06;40;18
Joshua Hoffert
Whoa, it's it's yeah, this is terrible. Anyway, it's,

00;06;40;24 - 00;06;46;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah. The hockey player is like, I'm just I'm just trying to be my favorite rapper. I love this guy. Why are you persecuting me?

00;06;46;20 - 00;06;51;20
Joshua Hoffert
I don't know, right. It's get death red. Yeah. Oh, my.

00;06;51;23 - 00;06;57;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Well, we went from, Tuscan raiders to Chris blackface.

00;06;57;20 - 00;06;58;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.

00;06;58;23 - 00;06;59;20
Murray Dueck
Players playing in.

00;06;59;20 - 00;07;01;08
Joshua Hoffert
Arizona. Yeah. There we go.

00;07;01;13 - 00;07;07;11
Murray Dueck
So see again everyone. We're not allowed to do this when we preach. You're not allowed to just wander. So it's quite liberating.

00;07;07;11 - 00;07;10;28
Joshua Hoffert
Well, Murray isn't it depends on if you talk to the people who listen to me or not.

00;07;10;28 - 00;07;12;27
Murray Dueck
So, Yeah. We don't know.

00;07;12;27 - 00;07;17;03
Joshua Hoffert
That, do we? Okay. Yeah. That's right, you did.

00;07;17;03 - 00;07;22;04
Murray Dueck
In my head. You have a sermon sentence three points closer with the same sentence. This is how you do.

00;07;22;04 - 00;07;25;28
Joshua Hoffert
It, right? Right. Yeah. Of course. Yeah, that's true like that anymore.

00;07;25;28 - 00;07;28;01
Murray Dueck
But boy, I tell you, they were tough on that.

00;07;28;01 - 00;07;30;05
Joshua Hoffert
So that was, that's there.

00;07;30;06 - 00;07;34;14
Joshua Hoffert
There's a lot of there's a lot of,

00;07;34;17 - 00;07;38;19
Joshua Hoffert
You know, contemporary traditions that need to die a grisly death.

00;07;38;21 - 00;07;44;19
Murray Dueck
So and that's what we're doing here today. Everyone killing our traditions only to explore other traditions.

00;07;44;21 - 00;07;48;10
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right. One stone at a takeaway, everybody.

00;07;48;16 - 00;07;56;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. That's right. One stone at a time, right? Yeah, yeah. We're killing the traditions. So what's on the topic for today? Murder.

00;07;56;27 - 00;08;14;08
Murray Dueck
Well, you know, we started, last week talking about interior prayer and really looking at, the Lord's Prayer in and around that passage. And so today we're going to continue that, of Jesus's secret teaching.

00;08;14;17 - 00;08;15;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;08;15;05 - 00;08;16;17
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right.

00;08;16;18 - 00;08;21;09
Murray Dueck
We needed a soundtrack. Dun dun da in the background right there. It should have prepped it. That.

00;08;21;10 - 00;08;24;20
Joshua Hoffert
For those that were, There we go.

00;08;24;22 - 00;08;29;04
Joshua Hoffert
Kind not quiet. I guess they're a bit mysterious, the sound people.

00;08;29;04 - 00;08;29;11
Joshua Hoffert
So.

00;08;29;11 - 00;08;32;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah, we don't know what they look like. I mean, they're hidden, and.

00;08;32;22 - 00;08;33;23
Joshua Hoffert
They're probably all that sound.

00;08;33;28 - 00;08;35;17
Joshua Hoffert
That's my only sound bite I can play.

00;08;35;20 - 00;08;57;13
Murray Dueck
That's right. We weren't prepared for that, but I was. That's what we're doing. Everyone. We're going to look at, Jesus's teaching on and particularly inner prayer. And the reason that's important is that, well, for me in particular and Josh as well, but when you come out of that, let's see a minute, that background minute, brethren, which is like a Baptist without guns.

00;08;58;04 - 00;09;18;21
Murray Dueck
You, I mean, basically the same thing. So you think Mennonites, you're thinking the Amish know. You know, it's not the same thing, but, you know, inner prayer is very verboten. You know, it's very like, you know, no, that's not what you do. That's not Christianity. And, and and, you know, some of you are coming out of, you know, evangelical traditions, similar.

00;09;18;26 - 00;09;35;27
Murray Dueck
So it's good to kind of go through what's Jesus doing here? What is like last week, you know, we pointed out that in the fathers and I think I read Albert the Great, where he specifically says, interprets like, go into your inner closet and pray it. This is your heart. Go in there. I mean.

00;09;36;00 - 00;09;36;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right, you.

00;09;36;16 - 00;09;44;11
Murray Dueck
Know, you know, I would be that would be aghast. My, my, theology professors would be like, that's that's heresy.

00;09;44;14 - 00;09;45;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So, right.

00;09;45;22 - 00;09;56;26
Murray Dueck
So, you know, we're going to look at some of this stuff today from, from Jesus. So there we go. That's where we're going. And, and, we'll see how he does. We'll see how far we see how we ready. So I have no idea.

00;09;56;27 - 00;09;57;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. But I'll it's.

00;09;57;28 - 00;10;01;26
Joshua Hoffert
Never a waste of time being with with you, Murray. It might be.

00;10;01;26 - 00;10;03;04
Joshua Hoffert
For getting this game.

00;10;03;07 - 00;10;05;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it might be for everybody else, but it's not for me.

00;10;05;26 - 00;10;07;23
Joshua Hoffert
So the.

00;10;07;27 - 00;10;10;16
Joshua Hoffert
You know, it's interesting that when we look.

00;10;10;16 - 00;10;11;16
Joshua Hoffert
At.

00;10;12;05 - 00;10;24;18
Joshua Hoffert
You know, we were looking last week at Matthew six and, and just starting to look at the teachings of Jesus on prayer. And, you know, the, the starting at the Lord's Prayer. Of course. Yeah. Kind of the, the and the in the ways.

00;10;24;18 - 00;10;25;25
Joshua Hoffert
That.

00;10;25;27 - 00;10;38;17
Joshua Hoffert
Turns into an external form of prayer. You know, a thing that we're supposed to read and say as opposed to a concept that we internalize. We talked we talked a bit about that last week.

00;10;38;17 - 00;10;40;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. We'll talk more about how we ended up there. Right there.

00;10;40;24 - 00;10;56;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And but it's interesting when you think on the, the kind of ways that prayer. Well, one is in my charismatic evangelical background and.

00;10;58;03 - 00;11;03;03
Joshua Hoffert
I, I was, I, you know.

00;11;03;05 - 00;11;08;16
Joshua Hoffert
In terms of what and how to pray was kind of non-existent.

00;11;08;19 - 00;11;09;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah. I hear that.

00;11;09;24 - 00;11;10;05
Joshua Hoffert
We.

00;11;10;05 - 00;11;11;10
Joshua Hoffert
Are trying.

00;11;11;10 - 00;11;15;27
Murray Dueck
To find this quote and keep going, everybody, you're watching me. I'm not playing a video game here.

00;11;16;00 - 00;11;32;25
Joshua Hoffert
There's an expectation I think I think there's an expectation that and I'm just kind of speaking off the cuff in an observer, you know, trying to think through observations that there's an expectation in charismatic circles that you'll learn by osmosis through worship.

00;11;32;28 - 00;11;34;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I would say that's true.

00;11;34;14 - 00;11;53;03
Joshua Hoffert
The music part of the service, that this is what prayer is like, right? This is what being spiritual is like. And then in terms of then we still kind of have a, a very, a very pulpit centered Sunday morning experience, right where there's.

00;11;53;03 - 00;11;55;08
Joshua Hoffert
The well, you know.

00;11;55;08 - 00;11;56;22
Murray Dueck
I. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

00;11;56;22 - 00;11;59;06
Joshua Hoffert
Well, yeah. Well, well, so I'm, I'm.

00;11;59;06 - 00;12;16;15
Joshua Hoffert
Just I remember when I actually decided I was going to start incorporating prayer into my life as a young man. I didn't know what to do, right? I was just lost within 36 to about 24, 25. And I know you still think of me as a young man, so.

00;12;16;15 - 00;12;18;11
Joshua Hoffert
I, I know that was my reaction.

00;12;18;17 - 00;12;42;07
Joshua Hoffert
But by that I mean in my 20s. Okay. And I didn't know what to do, right? I was lost as soon as I sat down and I lasted for 30 seconds and just went and started reading the Bible like, I don't know what to do. Then the flip side of that is, you know, like like my, our Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox friends who their entire service is infused with prayer, right?

00;12;42;07 - 00;13;02;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. And, and and very formal in that sense. Formal prayer in that sense. Right words to say and ways that we pray and call and response and all of that kind of stuff. And, and so there's a, there's a format that's given that is can be helpful and beneficial. But the flip side of that is I have an Anglican friend, he's a priest.

00;13;02;18 - 00;13;23;09
Joshua Hoffert
And when he was in his training, he with the priest that he was, was, being mentored by they went and did a hospital visit and the, the person in the hospital asked my friend to pray for him, and he kind of went checked his pockets and went.

00;13;23;10 - 00;13;24;25
Murray Dueck
Well, where's my where's my.

00;13;24;25 - 00;13;26;10
Joshua Hoffert
I forgot my book. Right?

00;13;26;10 - 00;13;36;21
Joshua Hoffert
I forgot my book of Common Prayer in the car. Let me go get it. And the you know, the priest turned to him that he was, but he was walking with and he said, well, no, you can just pray, you know?

00;13;37;04 - 00;13;37;10
Joshua Hoffert
And.

00;13;37;10 - 00;13;37;28
Joshua Hoffert
So there's like.

00;13;37;28 - 00;13;39;25
Joshua Hoffert
There's other times there's the other end of.

00;13;39;25 - 00;13;43;03
Joshua Hoffert
It, right where it's like, well, so, in the charismatic.

00;13;43;03 - 00;13;43;12
Joshua Hoffert
You know.

00;13;43;12 - 00;13;51;28
Murray Dueck
Let me pick a fight here. I'm going to pick a fight. Is that okay with, one reason. I mean, so I'm just going to speak from my experience here.

00;13;51;28 - 00;13;54;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, go for it. Yeah.

00;13;54;11 - 00;14;06;16
Murray Dueck
And, and, and I think a lot of evangelicals and then evangelicals that went into the charismatic church, I think, well, maybe stand up. Applause. Me and a few people will shake their fisted me here. So sure. But I think that's good. You know, that's.

00;14;06;16 - 00;14;07;28
Joshua Hoffert
What our podcast is all about.

00;14;07;28 - 00;14;17;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Go into the desert cheek of it. That's right. And, and he went into the desert, unclean spirit and came back with seven more.

00;14;17;17 - 00;14;20;12
Joshua Hoffert
There we go. So yeah.

00;14;20;14 - 00;14;43;21
Murray Dueck
From Bob. Okay. So, you know, it's this whole thing of prayer. I mean, we live on this Animal farm sanctuary now, and one of the reasons this is important to me is for the animals. But the other is, believe it or not, trying to learn. And as Josh shared in his 20s, it's tough how to pray because Paul says, pray without ceasing, right?

00;14;43;23 - 00;14;44;06
Joshua Hoffert
All right.

00;14;44;12 - 00;14;47;17
Murray Dueck
Elijah was a man just like us. And he prayed, you know.

00;14;47;20 - 00;14;49;27
Joshua Hoffert
There's another one. Yeah, those are the ones that are.

00;14;49;27 - 00;14;51;29
Joshua Hoffert
Thrown at us when it comes to how do we how are you supposed.

00;14;51;29 - 00;14;52;27
Joshua Hoffert
To help?

00;14;52;29 - 00;14;54;27
Joshua Hoffert
Elijah was a man just like us. And he prayed.

00;14;54;27 - 00;15;15;17
Murray Dueck
And and so just a pick a fight here about the value of prayer and why this is important. So when I, when I grew up and I this isn't true for everybody, but it does seem to be of people who grew up in Mennonite brethren churches. When it says in Philippians 4 or 3, top of my head, I consider everything lost that I may gain Christ.

00;15;15;19 - 00;15;19;20
Murray Dueck
Right? Not that I've already attained it, but I press on to the higher goal.

00;15;19;20 - 00;15;20;05
Joshua Hoffert
So. Right.

00;15;20;07 - 00;15;39;02
Murray Dueck
Well, first he says, I want to I want to know Christ. I want to know the fellowship of suffering. You know, the harvest of that. I may know him, and you know, not that I've already attained it, but I press on to the higher calling in Christ. And so I was taught higher calling is your vision or the task you're going to do for God.

00;15;39;05 - 00;15;58;19
Murray Dueck
That's what it is. Right? Okay. So you got to work and then as, as a, you know, charismatic, not a Pentecostal charismatic, you know, that's the thing. What are you doing? What's your vision? And, and, you know, I went and got a degree in missions, my, my bachelor degree, religious studies major in missions. Right. I thought, can I do this stuff?

00;15;58;22 - 00;16;19;24
Murray Dueck
Let's get out there. You know, that's what we should do. And and if you read the New Testament, there is no Scripture that tells everybody should be out doing this stuff. It's not there. There's no scripture on it. Jesus sends out the 12, you guys go, there is, Paul and Barnabas being set apart by the Holy Spirit.

00;16;19;25 - 00;16;41;29
Murray Dueck
Not everyone else, just those two. Right. There's Paul to Timothy, right? That's it. And and sometimes in the charismatic church, we put it on everybody. You guys get out there and work. Right. It's not there. I mean, does everyone have a gift? Is everyone should be following the Lord? Sure. Absolutely. Right. But this pressure to get out there and convert the world.

00;16;42;04 - 00;16;58;24
Murray Dueck
But you know, where there are verses of everybody do. Elijah was a man like us. That word is everybody. And he pray, pray without ceasing. The verses of everybody do this stuff is around prayer and it's there. But we have no emphasis that in our churches.

00;16;58;25 - 00;16;59;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right.

00;17;00;02 - 00;17;12;10
Murray Dueck
We're told to get out and do it. You can't support that. Everyone should be you can't scripturally right. And it just creates so much guilt. And then all the verses on doing everybody is prayer and nobody teaches us to do it. There's no.

00;17;12;10 - 00;17;13;12
Joshua Hoffert
Value. Right.

00;17;13;12 - 00;17;35;18
Murray Dueck
And then, you know, we're kind of stumbling. And so I'm not saying, you know, we shouldn't be doing anything, but we think prayer isn't do it. And the right and the and the early church even now dating back to historical church, you have these guys praying 20, 30 years of their life because it's so value prayer. They're going to spend their life doing it right because it's highly valuable.

00;17;35;20 - 00;17;46;25
Murray Dueck
And and we just like what? Like why would you waste your time praying like, if you pray, I will hear you and I will heal your land. I mean, there's all these verses about, you know, pray for me. Words may be it me.

00;17;46;25 - 00;17;47;26
Joshua Hoffert
There's right, you know. Right.

00;17;47;27 - 00;17;57;16
Murray Dueck
Jesus is. But I mean, it's so un valuable to us. Not only do we not know how to do it, but we think people who do it for a lifestyle are somehow deceived.

00;17;57;18 - 00;17;58;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;17;58;11 - 00;18;14;23
Murray Dueck
Which is, you know, you can't back that up in Scripture, which why we're going to look at prayer today. Because as we teach you how to do it, you're got to value it and see it and realize there's lots of church culture, which is where I started from your Anglican. Yeah, that really value prayer. So there you go, everybody.

00;18;14;23 - 00;18;19;10
Murray Dueck
You can be mad at me about taking shot at vision, but prove me wrong. Go ahead.

00;18;19;13 - 00;18;34;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, well it's it. You know, I remember hearing Dallas Willard say one time, who's, you know, great, great emphasis on prayer and the formation of the inner man in throughout all of Dallas religious life, reign. Spirit of the disciplines. Great book that he wrote.

00;18;35;01 - 00;18;35;13
Joshua Hoffert

00;18;36;07 - 00;18;43;08
Joshua Hoffert
And he said, you know, when he was asked about vision statements, he said, as far as he was concerned.

00;18;43;10 - 00;18;44;05
Joshua Hoffert

00;18;44;07 - 00;19;08;28
Joshua Hoffert
Jesus offered the best vision statement for the church, and it's been sustaining it ever since, which was go into all the world and make disciples, heal the sick and cleanse the lepers. And if you want to restate that in your own words, go for it. But that's you know, the vision statement never changes, right? And we spent I you know, I know church churches that have spent six months to a year crafting a vision statement, all to say that they're about Jesus.

00;19;08;28 - 00;19;31;11
Joshua Hoffert
And you're like, what? I mean, that's a lot of effort in in our time. And so and then where's the teaching on prayer and see prayer? One of the, one of the misconceptions about prayers, prayer becomes, you know, in in in one sense, it's you either have intercessory groups. Well, that's prayer, right? Yeah. And so now they're going to meet together.

00;19;31;11 - 00;19;55;16
Joshua Hoffert
They're going to pray about their city, their region, their church and, and that kind of stuff or, or personal prayer is petition area where you're asking God to take care of this and take care of this and take care of that. And, and I find interesting about the, the teachings of Jesus when he gets into the Lord's Prayer, that the first half of the Lord's Prayer is all about God, and it's not about us, right?

00;19;55;16 - 00;20;11;22
Joshua Hoffert
It's not. And and actually, really, only one phrase is about, you know, give us this day. Our daily bread is the only one where it talks about taking care of our needs, and the rest of it is about how we relate to each other and how we relate to God and what he's like. Right. So this is like interesting.

00;20;11;25 - 00;20;37;03
Joshua Hoffert
It's not it's not about there's there's no in a way, there's no when he goes, pray like this, there's no intercessory example, right? There's no lead us not into temptation. This isn't, you know, impact our cities and change this. There's. Forgive us because we're forgiving others, right? This is personal. I mean, it's so intensely personal, right?

00;20;37;03 - 00;20;37;17
Joshua Hoffert
It's not.

00;20;37;17 - 00;20;38;17
Joshua Hoffert
Absolutely it's.

00;20;38;17 - 00;20;42;14
Joshua Hoffert
Not. It's isn't interesting. Now, that's to say is that there's not a place for intercessory prayer.

00;20;42;20 - 00;20;43;13
Joshua Hoffert
But the thing.

00;20;43;18 - 00;20;45;15
Murray Dueck
I mean, there's other forms, there's.

00;20;45;20 - 00;20;46;12
Joshua Hoffert
Other.

00;20;46;14 - 00;20;48;14
Murray Dueck
Knocks it down to this little myopic.

00;20;48;14 - 00;20;51;17
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly, exactly. So we've gotten that's a very good way to.

00;20;51;18 - 00;20;52;22
Murray Dueck
The visual everybody.

00;20;52;25 - 00;20;53;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;20;53;02 - 00;20;56;07
Murray Dueck
If you're not watching this on YouTube, you totally missed what I did with my hands.

00;20;56;09 - 00;20;57;04
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;20;57;06 - 00;21;01;09
Joshua Hoffert
And it's very true because it does. That's a good way of saying that it becomes.

00;21;01;09 - 00;21;02;18
Joshua Hoffert
Myopic.

00;21;02;21 - 00;21;03;11
Joshua Hoffert
When.

00;21;03;12 - 00;21;04;05
Joshua Hoffert
We're so.

00;21;04;05 - 00;21;22;29
Joshua Hoffert
Narrowly focused on, on, you know, the different forms that we assume it is. And then so then we've got, like, you know, the Paul in the unceasing prayer, right? In first Thessalonians five, and people don't know what that means, right? Well, how do you pray unceasingly? And that's the subject of one of the books that we really like.

00;21;22;29 - 00;21;24;16
Joshua Hoffert
And we might talk about today, the way.

00;21;24;18 - 00;21;25;17
Murray Dueck
We'll see if we get there.

00;21;25;18 - 00;21;25;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;21;25;27 - 00;21;27;03
Joshua Hoffert
And then or then we go.

00;21;27;03 - 00;21;27;25
Joshua Hoffert
Well.

00;21;28;24 - 00;21;46;16
Joshua Hoffert
Let's look at the Psalms. Right. And so the Psalms, because they become the manual for prayer, which is a is a, a good manual book for prayer. Absolutely right. Or in the charismatic circles we talk about praying in the spirit. Right or tongues. Right or, or I remember going forward.

00;21;46;17 - 00;21;49;17
Joshua Hoffert
About a hand. Yeah. That's right. Ty. Yeah.

00;21;49;19 - 00;21;54;07
Murray Dueck
Sorry, everybody. That's I'm just being facetious, but I get it in legitimate, real ways as well.

00;21;54;07 - 00;22;08;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah, we're we're advocates for praying movements. And, and then we've got, like, I remember a church that I attended in my, younger years where we would have, smoking prayer nights.

00;22;08;15 - 00;22;08;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;22;08;22 - 00;22;14;11
Murray Dueck
Yes. That's right. That's. So we picked that up from Toronto, I think. Yeah. I still think that's a really good it's a good start.

00;22;14;15 - 00;22;17;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You put some nice soft music on and.

00;22;17;11 - 00;22;18;07
Murray Dueck
Hang with Jesus.

00;22;18;07 - 00;22;29;18
Joshua Hoffert
Hang with Jesus. And so, you know, that's maybe getting a little bit more to the point. But, but all of that to say what I find, what I've been reflecting on, I find so interesting is that, when you look at.

00;22;29;25 - 00;22;33;07
Joshua Hoffert
The, the.

00;22;33;10 - 00;22;36;01
Joshua Hoffert
Starting points for teachings.

00;22;36;02 - 00;22;37;20
Murray Dueck
On, you can see this.

00;22;38;14 - 00;22;41;11
Joshua Hoffert
I have I'm sorry. Like. Oh, crap. Yeah, yeah. No, that's all right.

00;22;42;08 - 00;22;50;12
Murray Dueck
Getting a low battery warning here, so I'm just going to have to plug my laptop. Okay. Go for it. Never occurred to me.

00;22;50;14 - 00;23;11;24
Joshua Hoffert
I find it interesting that the the the places we start, you know, whether it's a Psalms or unceasing prayer or, praying the spirit, whatever the places we start to look for instruction on prayer, not large, are not the teachings of Jesus. Right? That's that's other.

00;23;11;24 - 00;23;14;10
Murray Dueck
Than the Lord's Prayer. We've got it. Thanks, Jesus.

00;23;14;13 - 00;23;15;24
Joshua Hoffert
I got to ask you later.

00;23;15;24 - 00;23;25;16
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly. And I think that's the, the the way that we approach the Lord's Prayer is we we say the Lord's Prayer corporately. You know, some places do.

00;23;25;18 - 00;23;26;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, absolutely. We don't.

00;23;26;23 - 00;23;44;10
Joshua Hoffert
We don't. And I said this earlier, right. We don't internalize the Lord's Prayer and what the and the implications of the Lord's Prayer. And Jesus doesn't start his teaching on prayer at the Lord's Prayer. Right? He starts it about 5 to 10 verses earlier. And so this is this is the interesting thing.

00;23;44;10 - 00;23;49;06
Murray Dueck
We talked about last week, didn't we? That exact point or. No, we pray. By the way. We should unpack that. That's a good thought.

00;23;49;11 - 00;23;51;02
Joshua Hoffert
Well, he says.

00;23;51;03 - 00;23;53;12
Murray Dueck
Don't memorize my own shows. Everybody says.

00;23;53;13 - 00;23;53;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;23;53;20 - 00;23;55;09
Joshua Hoffert
Record that. I don't have this. Yeah.

00;23;55;10 - 00;23;57;11
Joshua Hoffert
This would be verbatim from last week, right?

00;23;57;14 - 00;23;58;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;23;58;11 - 00;24;05;17
Joshua Hoffert
He says in verse five, and when you pray, this is the first time. Yes, in.

00;24;05;17 - 00;24;06;08
Murray Dueck
Matthew five, the.

00;24;06;08 - 00;24;08;22
Joshua Hoffert
Gospels that Jesus.

00;24;08;26 - 00;24;09;03
Joshua Hoffert
About it.

00;24;09;08 - 00;24;21;11
Joshua Hoffert
That Jesus starts to talk about prayer. Right? Which is which is, you know, you've you some people have heard maybe you heard of the the rule of first mention in Scripture.

00;24;21;17 - 00;24;22;08
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yes.

00;24;22;10 - 00;24;24;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So maybe we could you could.

00;24;24;15 - 00;24;25;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah. We should talk about that just a bit.

00;24;25;28 - 00;24;37;21
Joshua Hoffert
You could apply that maybe to this particular verse. Yeah. I, I don't know that you need to, apply it to this particular verse, but I'm just been thinking about this, that it's interesting that the place.

00;24;37;25 - 00;24;39;03
Murray Dueck
Of interesting.

00;24;40;01 - 00;24;49;08
Joshua Hoffert
The, the place of introduction to prayer for most Christians is not when Jesus says for the first time and when you pray.

00;24;49;10 - 00;24;50;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;24;50;05 - 00;25;00;11
Joshua Hoffert
Like you would think that this would be okay, well, let's teach you prayer. When Jesus started teaching on prayer, he said this, right? That that, that never happened with me. I would hazard a guess.

00;25;00;11 - 00;25;01;21
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah. I mean.

00;25;01;24 - 00;25;03;04
Murray Dueck
Almost with me either.

00;25;03;07 - 00;25;30;13
Joshua Hoffert
Almost anybody. Right. It's not. Oh, well, Jesus in Matthew six said, and when you pray, pray like this, this is what you should do. And that's not what we start with, right? And he doesn't actually start with a, a strict format in that sense. Right? He starts with a concept. And the concept is go into the innermost chamber, go into the secret place, and your father who is there and season secret will open openly reward you.

00;25;30;13 - 00;25;40;02
Joshua Hoffert
So prayer is not the beginning of prayers, not a petition. It's not an intercession.

00;25;40;15 - 00;25;43;27
Murray Dueck
It is a heart, attitude, preparation of intimacy.

00;25;44;02 - 00;25;45;25
Joshua Hoffert
It's an encounter, right?

00;25;45;26 - 00;26;08;22
Joshua Hoffert
It is for to use. That's kind of our charismatic language there. But it's it is a, it is a, a union. It is a connection. It is an attachment. It is an intimate moment. It is, it is all those things. Right. So it's not it's not he doesn't start and say, well, say this and say this.

00;26;08;22 - 00;26;13;02
Joshua Hoffert
He says, when you pray, go into the innermost chamber.

00;26;13;05 - 00;26;14;21
Joshua Hoffert
You know, first place.

00;26;14;23 - 00;26;17;12
Murray Dueck
First thing to read a quote, right?

00;26;17;14 - 00;26;29;09
Joshua Hoffert
Who work when you pray, go into your church and say these things. Know when you pray, go into your innermost chamber, which we did. We talked about the innermost chamber being the the place of the heart. So he's.

00;26;29;11 - 00;26;29;19
Murray Dueck
It's.

00;26;29;19 - 00;26;31;27
Joshua Hoffert
Interesting the first thing he talks about.

00;26;31;29 - 00;26;53;08
Murray Dueck
So and everybody that would be the classic way the Desert Fathers would think about that. So we think prayer as a repetitive thing like the Lord's Prayer. We think prayer as giving petition, asking for help. That again, that's not how the early church would see this again. It's part of it. But I mean, so we're beginning to trip upon Abide in me.

00;26;53;15 - 00;27;23;07
Murray Dueck
I you. And then you can ask that the abiding aspect, you know, John 15. John 16 in that area there. So I'm going to read you, this is from a website. I just, but it's going to quote a vagaries of, of pointers here. And so what? You know what his prayer, father Boris Brahe, Prince Coy, who, I don't know, continues his discussion on theology, in The compassion of the fathers by considering the implications of vagaries of practice.

00;27;23;07 - 00;27;43;28
Murray Dueck
His famous saying, the one who prays is a theologian, and the one who a theologian prays. This means that the one who prays is a theologian in the deepest and most fundamental sense of the word. Prayer. Even the desire for a prayer is always a movement. Drawing us to God. It is the mysterious action of the Holy Spirit in the human heart.

00;27;44;00 - 00;28;03;09
Murray Dueck
If the one who prays is a theologian, it is because we can say this very humbly each one of us knows prayer in the spirit, in the moment of true prayer, the grace of the Holy Spirit in the heart of our being causes a longing desire, a cry for help. The emotion becomes the beauty of the cosmos or compassion for the suffering that surrounds us.

00;28;03;12 - 00;28;23;22
Murray Dueck
The Holy Spirit introduces us to communion with the Son, Jesus Christ. In the mystery of incarnation. And I'll just skip a little bit the saying, the one who praises a theologian introduces a genuine theology beyond words and concepts. Beyond dogma, theological theories beyond the left side of the brain we're talking about.

00;28;23;24 - 00;28;24;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;28;25;20 - 00;28;44;10
Murray Dueck
Because it's introducing you to a person in a relationship, not to a systematic way of saying things. And so the one who prays is a theologian, and a theologian is the one who prays. Right. And and it's about this intimacy and how the Lord draws us deeper. So anyway, I just wanted to throw that out as being voices from the desert.

00;28;44;10 - 00;28;46;10
Murray Dueck
I thought I'd grab one a vigorous advantage.

00;28;46;17 - 00;29;03;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, and a vigorous. I love a vigorous. He's he his teachings on, the the the, practical. Practical. Pretty close to practical. So I think on prayer, he's there's a whole book he has on prayer with like 150 sayings on prayer. It's really, really good stuff.

00;29;03;21 - 00;29;07;05
Murray Dueck
And he's not vague like he's not a vague. He's like.

00;29;07;07 - 00;29;09;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right. It's like,

00;29;09;29 - 00;29;13;00
Murray Dueck
There should have been he's like on point.

00;29;13;02 - 00;29;15;08
Joshua Hoffert
He is. Yeah. And the case of.

00;29;15;10 - 00;29;35;11
Joshua Hoffert
Agree is, is also the he's one that says that, prayer is the ascent of the intellect or ascent of the news to God. And so we've, we kind of, compared his, his approach or his that statement to, when we're, we're we're talking about Madame Gooey on prayers isn't to the heart to God.

00;29;35;11 - 00;29;35;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;29;35;28 - 00;29;39;06
Joshua Hoffert
And, very similar in tension between the East and the West.

00;29;39;06 - 00;29;39;15
Joshua Hoffert
We need to.

00;29;39;15 - 00;29;40;15
Murray Dueck
Get back to Madame de un.

00;29;40;15 - 00;29;42;04
Joshua Hoffert
Actually. Yeah. So we'll we'll.

00;29;42;04 - 00;29;44;00
Joshua Hoffert
Come. We'll come full circle.

00;29;44;02 - 00;29;45;03
Joshua Hoffert

00;29;45;05 - 00;29;58;29
Joshua Hoffert
And so, so this is, this is kind of the, the, the driving point is that prayer is not saying this or saying that prayer is a,

00;29;59;02 - 00;29;59;06
Joshua Hoffert

00;29;59;10 - 00;30;06;24
Joshua Hoffert
I it might was it is it I might Pragyan I can't go on. I can't remember who it is. But prayer is intimate converse between two lovers.

00;30;06;24 - 00;30;15;00
Murray Dueck
There we go. That's something. Have really nicely. I think you're right. I think that's in, the depth of the heart. Sorry. Experiencing the depths.

00;30;15;03 - 00;30;17;10
Joshua Hoffert
Of the depths of Jesus Christ. Right?

00;30;17;13 - 00;30;19;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Everybody. That's worth your time, by the way.

00;30;19;11 - 00;30;38;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. You know, and one of the things that we, you know, we were talking about, before we were recording this, when we were thinking about this is, it's like, one of the verses that's used to kind of make prayer more difficult.

00;30;38;03 - 00;30;38;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;30;38;12 - 00;30;47;03
Joshua Hoffert
As supposed to. It's supposed to not. Right. But it's this it's this one that we find right here in Matthew six. When you pray, do not use vain repetitions.

00;30;47;06 - 00;30;49;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right. What does that mean? I think, Murray, have.

00;30;49;12 - 00;30;49;23
Murray Dueck
We've been.

00;30;49;23 - 00;30;51;20
Joshua Hoffert
Told. Yeah, I think Murray has a bone to pick.

00;30;51;21 - 00;30;52;25
Joshua Hoffert
I do, I have a.

00;30;52;25 - 00;30;54;04
Murray Dueck
Math. How only pick with that and.

00;30;54;11 - 00;30;56;18
Joshua Hoffert
How that verse has been.

00;30;56;21 - 00;30;57;20
Joshua Hoffert

00;30;57;22 - 00;31;00;22
Joshua Hoffert
Has has it been twisted and misapplied.

00;31;00;24 - 00;31;03;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Which, which and and.

00;31;03;04 - 00;31;08;12
Joshua Hoffert
For just for the record, in a Murray I'll turn it over to you to. Yeah. Radically tear it down is.

00;31;08;12 - 00;31;10;29
Joshua Hoffert
Sorry everybody. Just so we do it right. You just so.

00;31;10;29 - 00;31;15;02
Joshua Hoffert
Because people go, oh yeah. Like you're not supposed to repeat the same thing over and over and over again.

00;31;15;08 - 00;31;15;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;31;15;27 - 00;31;20;18
Joshua Hoffert
If that's the case, why did Jesus say, when you pray, pray in this manner.

00;31;20;25 - 00;31;21;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;31;21;05 - 00;31;22;19
Joshua Hoffert
And then he gives you a format.

00;31;22;23 - 00;31;25;26
Murray Dueck
And then he gives you a fine. Many of you repeated. The Lord repeated, exactly right.

00;31;25;27 - 00;31;26;29
Joshua Hoffert
So in.

00;31;27;00 - 00;31;34;14
Joshua Hoffert
Repetitions. But then we repeat this over and over and over again. So I don't think he meant what you think he meant.

00;31;34;15 - 00;31;35;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Right.

00;31;35;15 - 00;31;35;28
Joshua Hoffert
So go ahead.

00;31;35;28 - 00;31;36;06
Joshua Hoffert
Mare.

00;31;36;11 - 00;31;58;03
Murray Dueck
I well, so we'll give you the early church view of this everybody and I believe in the. Yeah. In the I have it up there. I won't bother bringing it down, but if you want to proof text me, I'm sure you could download it for free. The art of prayer and Orthodox and theology and it talks about this very thing in the introduction.

00;31;58;03 - 00;32;09;09
Murray Dueck
If you were like, well, okay, because I'm not going to quote Desert Fathers here, but I'm going to tell you what they say. And if you don't trust me, just get that you can because you can interrupt. You can download the introduction for free. Worth your time about the heart, by the way, and.

00;32;09;11 - 00;32;14;09
Joshua Hoffert
Go to the you can go to the Desert fathers.com. And and there are all the articles that I wrote on the desert.

00;32;14;11 - 00;32;15;07
Murray Dueck
Oh well there you go.

00;32;15;13 - 00;32;17;23
Joshua Hoffert
Many things are in there. Yeah.

00;32;17;25 - 00;32;33;25
Murray Dueck
Okay. So Jesus is, setting up the Lord's Prayer here, and we dealt with this first verse. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father in secret. So, you know, we covered that. Albert the Great we quoted last week. That's your heart. Then your father, who sees what you've done in secret, will reward you.

00;32;33;25 - 00;32;53;09
Murray Dueck
And here's the troubling little passage that gets, I think, culturally, culturally misinterpreted. When you pray, do not keep on babbling like the pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Right? Do not do not be like them, for your father knows what you need before you ask him. And that's. That's important.

00;32;53;09 - 00;33;22;08
Murray Dueck
That's connected together. Everyone. Because your father knows what you need right before you ask him. So in other words, he's talking about, you don't need to keep going on and on about your need. You heard you the first time. I mean, that's that's kind of the thing. So now we interpret that. Or when I was back in my evangelical days and I think probably as even as charismatic with that babbling, what that means is don't keep saying the same thing over and over, like a short little like Augustine would call an arrow prayer.

00;33;22;10 - 00;33;43;24
Murray Dueck
Just a short little sentence, you know? And the classic desert father won that. As time went on, it got formed into Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me. Or even the little longer version, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. And you just repeat that. And while that's babbling that you can't do repetitive prayer because that's babbling God heard, you don't need to keep repeating it, right.

00;33;43;28 - 00;34;02;18
Murray Dueck
And that's what it means. But it's hard to believe that's what it means. Because like, because if you interpret repeating something is babbling. Well, again, the Lord's Prayer is repetitive. We repeat it. That's what we do. And again, some people get around that by teaching. Well, the Lord's Prayer is just a format. You're not supposed to really repeat it.

00;34;02;25 - 00;34;08;13
Murray Dueck
You start with glorifying God, and then you move on to your needs, and then you move on to, you know, it's just stages. And I'm.

00;34;08;13 - 00;34;10;04
Joshua Hoffert
Like, right, well.

00;34;12;04 - 00;34;30;10
Murray Dueck
You know, the but but if that's true, then that screws up this verse. Do not be like the before. Your father knows what you need. So another day you don't need to keep asking anything in depth. And I remember one of the desert fathers, somebody asked him why do you, why do you how do we pray? And he goes, just say, Jesus, have mercy on me.

00;34;30;12 - 00;34;37;25
Murray Dueck
He knows what you need. It's all you got. That's all you need, right? Right. And so they would go see they would go the other way. Now what are they.

00;34;37;28 - 00;34;43;20
Joshua Hoffert
That's curious. It says, well, how should one pray? Just say, Lord help.

00;34;43;22 - 00;34;45;26
Joshua Hoffert
That's what. Yeah. That's it says. Right.

00;34;45;29 - 00;34;51;06
Murray Dueck
Because it's the heartfelt what's going in in the heart with the word, not the words themselves.

00;34;51;08 - 00;34;51;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;34;51;19 - 00;35;07;09
Murray Dueck
That's what's going on in the inner man flow. Right. Okay. So so here's what they're looking at here. So back in Roman times, let's say they were going to do a big feast. They're going to do the Olympics. They were going to do something. You would have a rotation, you know, somebody who's good at oratory. That's the big training back in the day.

00;35;07;09 - 00;35;29;21
Murray Dueck
Right. And and they would make a plea to the gods before this big event like Apollo or whoever for the Olympic Games. And he would pray 2 to 3 hours and. Yes. And the reason he's praying so much is that the gods would be impressed with this long prayer. And if it went on, it was really structured. It was well said.

00;35;29;23 - 00;35;34;22
Murray Dueck
It was long. The gods would go, hey, this guy knows how to pray. We will bless you because the length of your prayer.

00;35;34;29 - 00;35;35;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;35;35;09 - 00;35;54;10
Murray Dueck
And that's what Paul or sorry and it Matthew's talking about here. He was like, don't go on and on like the pagans babbling because trying to impress God with your words and the length and your need, and, you know, God hears you and and now some of you will go, well, what about the widow before the judge going on and on?

00;35;54;14 - 00;36;03;19
Murray Dueck
We'll get to that, right? Because you're like, yeah, what does that mean? So, so the idea Jesus is basically saying you don't need lots of words, just this here it is.

00;36;03;23 - 00;36;04;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;36;04;10 - 00;36;05;26
Murray Dueck
And you can repeat it right.

00;36;05;27 - 00;36;07;20
Joshua Hoffert
It's made it really simple.

00;36;07;23 - 00;36;30;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So the idea is that so we want to get to this because there are we're going to look at some forms of prayer that are repetitive. But it doesn't mean, you know, you can't use this passage. Basically the context. Well, you can't do short repetitive prayers because that's babbling. No, it's actually the other way around. Right? Can't do words, can't go on and on and on and on and on.

00;36;30;21 - 00;36;42;27
Murray Dueck
Have you ever been cornered by somebody who doesn't take a breath when they talk and you're like, how do I stop them? I'm trapped. God feels the same way. Everybody. So, but but that's what he's talking about there, right?

00;36;42;27 - 00;36;44;10
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. So,

00;36;44;12 - 00;36;46;16
Joshua Hoffert
That's that's absolutely true. Yeah.

00;36;46;18 - 00;36;50;09
Murray Dueck
So I mean, contextually speaking, historically. Right.

00;36;50;10 - 00;36;51;03
Joshua Hoffert
That's what we're well.

00;36;51;03 - 00;37;07;22
Joshua Hoffert
To and to add just another layer to that too, that one of the practices within, because then you can bring in the, you know, cultural practices of the day, the, the various oracles that were stationed all around.

00;37;07;25 - 00;37;08;18
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;37;08;21 - 00;37;10;06
Joshua Hoffert
The Greek, the Greek Empire.

00;37;10;06 - 00;37;10;22
Murray Dueck
Right? Yes.

00;37;10;23 - 00;37;13;23
Joshua Hoffert
Delphi and, all these things.

00;37;13;25 - 00;37;42;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So there was four major places, and I, I can't remember what all of them were, but Delphi was one of them. And essentially where they were centralized. This is the theory anyway. Where they were centrally sized was around places that had that had a, you know, like a fisher and the, a fisher. Fisher. Yeah. In the rocks it would emit methane gas or something like that.

00;37;42;12 - 00;37;49;23
Joshua Hoffert
That would make the Oracle high. And then the oracle would just start babbling incoherently.

00;37;49;23 - 00;37;51;20
Joshua Hoffert
And then they were heard.

00;37;51;22 - 00;38;09;23
Joshua Hoffert
What the oracle was saying. And then eventually something that might make sense. They look at it as the words of the gods would come out. Right. And actually, this is probably a the pagan version. This is, you know, now we're deep diving, but this is that's probably the pagan version of speaking in tongues.

00;38;10;03 - 00;38;10;12
Joshua Hoffert
Pretty.

00;38;10;12 - 00;38;10;27
Murray Dueck
Much.

00;38;11;00 - 00;38;11;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. I mean.

00;38;11;13 - 00;38;13;27
Murray Dueck
There's some very interesting historical documentation.

00;38;13;27 - 00;38;16;00
Joshua Hoffert
And I think that's right. It looks actually. Yeah.

00;38;16;02 - 00;38;26;27
Murray Dueck
Really like fighting the Persians. And there's this weird saying, and the Greeks go, I think we're supposed to build ships. I mean, it's so vague. And then they winning. It is. It's because of the babbling.

00;38;26;27 - 00;38;28;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. There we go.

00;38;28;08 - 00;38;52;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, exactly. And so there was that that that's probably in the backdrop to of don't because he says don't go as the heathen do. Right. As the pagans, as the Greeks and as the Romans do. Don't go doing this right. That's not the the the way of prayer is not looking at how they do it out there and going, well, that's incorporated in here.

00;38;52;24 - 00;38;56;13
Joshua Hoffert
The way of prayer is the way of the heart is essentially what Jesus is saying. Right?

00;38;56;20 - 00;39;17;07
Murray Dueck
So that's right. So everyone we're talking location. Being out of your heart will flow rivers of water. Not yes repetitive words convincing somebody and I just want to make make a point because I said something facetious there that that people might misunderstand. I was being trying to be a little funny. Yes. God wants you to.

00;39;17;07 - 00;39;18;10
Joshua Hoffert
Pursue.

00;39;18;23 - 00;39;44;21
Murray Dueck
Well, he. God doesn't want you to pursue him in prayer from your heart. Absolutely he does. Right. Pray without ceasing? Absolutely. Ask. Keep on asking. Knock and keep on knocking. But it's not your words that convince them. It's the state of your heart. Persuasion it. Pursuit that convinces him so I just want to maybe say that make a little bit of clarity there, because I it sounds like I was a little mocking, but I wanted to apologize.

00;39;44;24 - 00;39;45;25
Joshua Hoffert
Well, yeah, that's a.

00;39;45;25 - 00;39;51;13
Murray Dueck
Good part of being a minute. Right. Everybody right there. I want to point that out. There's some good stuff in Romans.

00;39;51;15 - 00;39;55;08
Joshua Hoffert
Well, they think about the publican in the Pharisee. Right. The publican has.

00;39;55;08 - 00;39;57;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Pharisee has the job.

00;39;57;14 - 00;40;04;15
Joshua Hoffert
Very good, articulate language. And the publican can just beat his breast and say forgive me.

00;40;04;17 - 00;40;05;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Right.

00;40;05;14 - 00;40;07;04
Joshua Hoffert
So, you know.

00;40;07;04 - 00;40;07;23
Joshua Hoffert
It's that's.

00;40;07;23 - 00;40;15;29
Murray Dueck
The actually the example the Desert Fathers give of just say Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy. That's what the publican did, a little thing.

00;40;15;29 - 00;40;16;25
Joshua Hoffert
And he was just.

00;40;16;28 - 00;40;19;10
Joshua Hoffert
For God. Pharisee. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

00;40;19;10 - 00;40;20;03
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;40;20;06 - 00;40;22;04
Joshua Hoffert
And, that brilliant example. Yeah.

00;40;22;06 - 00;40;39;02
Joshua Hoffert
So, you know, it's one of the things that we wanted to talk about too. And I'm just trying to it's like, maybe I can try and string this whole thing together, and see what you think, Murr, because, you know, we kind of talk.

00;40;39;03 - 00;40;40;25
Murray Dueck
I mean, I don't know about,

00;40;40;28 - 00;40;41;19
Joshua Hoffert

00;40;41;19 - 00;40;42;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I.

00;40;42;00 - 00;40;44;10
Murray Dueck
Know I should have played the Dan people.

00;40;44;10 - 00;40;49;20
Joshua Hoffert
Sound. Yeah. Yeah. Or, There. When?

00;40;49;22 - 00;40;55;22
Joshua Hoffert
First off, we can say this when the Church Fathers reads scripture.

00;40;55;25 - 00;40;56;06
Joshua Hoffert

00;40;56;12 - 00;40;59;04
Joshua Hoffert
Their primary.

00;40;59;06 - 00;41;03;20
Murray Dueck
Just makes me want to grab my teacup. Hold on a second here. I we're going to go deep.

00;41;03;22 - 00;41;04;01
Joshua Hoffert
There it.

00;41;04;01 - 00;41;06;21
Joshua Hoffert
Is primary. The primary.

00;41;06;24 - 00;41;08;26
Murray Dueck
Oh, I need something to hold on to.

00;41;08;29 - 00;41;38;21
Joshua Hoffert
Behind the reading of Scripture is not. What is the, what is the sense that this verse originally has. Right. That's not the primary approach to, to the reading of Scripture, not like the reformers. And then as it's just escalated in Post-Enlightenment time, is, you know, what's the tense of every Greek word? What does it all mean?

00;41;38;21 - 00;41;50;15
Joshua Hoffert
What did the original author mean? What's the intent? And how do we contextualize that in a contemporary society? And how do we do that? That would be, exit exegesis. Hermeneutics.

00;41;50;17 - 00;41;50;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;41;50;24 - 00;42;16;02
Joshua Hoffert
This is Jesus, right? Taking Scripture and understanding its intent and then applying it today. So we get the true, authorial intent. Right? That's kind of the, the approach that, that we have in a, in a seminary, system. Right. Or in a factual knowledge based system.

00;42;16;05 - 00;42;16;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;42;17;02 - 00;42;40;12
Joshua Hoffert
But in terms of the early church fathers, it couldn't be further from the truth to say that they primarily read Scripture that way. Not to say they didn't. They did, you know, commentaries and such like that. They they were trying to understand those things, but they're the thrust of the reading of Scripture is looking for the deeper, hidden meaning of Scripture.

00;42;40;15 - 00;42;42;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And it.

00;42;43;00 - 00;42;44;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And and so that.

00;42;44;28 - 00;42;50;11
Murray Dueck
Everyone out here don't watching this video because, I could never play poker, I, I might be.

00;42;50;13 - 00;42;53;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You wear your emotions, right? Yeah, yeah.

00;42;53;17 - 00;43;00;12
Murray Dueck
John. And we're filming this, you see what my eyes just did? I totally went flashback Bible school. I need inner healing of memory.

00;43;00;12 - 00;43;03;10
Joshua Hoffert
You you read what great say, Gregory of as it.

00;43;03;10 - 00;43;06;27
Joshua Hoffert
Gregory of Goodness writes life of Moses. Right? Exactly.

00;43;06;29 - 00;43;08;04
Joshua Hoffert
And it's like he doesn't even.

00;43;08;10 - 00;43;08;20
Murray Dueck
I just.

00;43;08;20 - 00;43;09;00
Joshua Hoffert
Looked up.

00;43;09;06 - 00;43;17;06
Joshua Hoffert
He doesn't even care what actually happened in the life of Moses. Right? It's all analogy allegory, and it's all pointing to.

00;43;17;08 - 00;43;17;28
Joshua Hoffert
The hyper.

00;43;18;01 - 00;43;18;26
Murray Dueck
And real.

00;43;18;28 - 00;43;19;08
Joshua Hoffert
Way of.

00;43;19;08 - 00;43;20;19
Joshua Hoffert
The spiritual life. Right?

00;43;20;21 - 00;43;24;11
Murray Dueck
There's a great you should really listen to it. I right? I just do it.

00;43;24;11 - 00;43;24;24
Joshua Hoffert
Everything.

00;43;24;26 - 00;43;28;16
Joshua Hoffert
Nice a one of the and by the way, this is one of the one of the Cappadocia.

00;43;28;16 - 00;43;32;11
Murray Dueck
Cappadocia and father's body and then Saint see Nicene Creed right.

00;43;32;11 - 00;43;35;08
Joshua Hoffert
And responsible for our our.

00;43;35;10 - 00;43;38;25
Joshua Hoffert
Understanding of Trinitarian theology. One of the guys responsible.

00;43;38;25 - 00;43;40;19
Joshua Hoffert
For what I articulate.

00;43;40;21 - 00;43;58;03
Murray Dueck
In a dream, by the way, which I can't track down. Yeah. Somebody find that out there. But so I was going to say, I listen to Bishop Aaron a Steenberg like get up Irena Steinberg on mysticism. You type it in, it'll come up. And he says, if you want to understand the early church and how they thought, read The Life of Moses.

00;43;58;03 - 00;43;59;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah. This is how they interpreted scripture.

00;43;59;27 - 00;44;00;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;44;00;10 - 00;44;06;00
Murray Dueck
It's it's and you know what? I bought it. I could barely read it. It's so allegorical.

00;44;06;03 - 00;44;06;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;44;06;12 - 00;44;12;23
Murray Dueck
Moses went up the mountain. This means approaching God. And when he went into the, you know, it's like, oh my God. It's like, oh, it.

00;44;12;25 - 00;44;15;07
Joshua Hoffert
You're way over the top here, Gregory the great.

00;44;15;10 - 00;44;38;29
Joshua Hoffert
Great, really great. One of the great, church leaders of all time. Who who wrote the book of pastoral care and kind of set the stage for what pastoral ministry was all about for a thousand years. Gregory the Great, in his book on the prophet, his homilies on the book of the Prophet Ezekiel, he goes through the, the the makeup of the tabernacle in Ezekiel.

00;44;40;06 - 00;44;52;17
Joshua Hoffert
42 to 50, I think, is what it is. Right. Something the 40 to 50, something like that, 40 to 48, whatever. He goes through and he's like, you know, the slits.

00;44;52;17 - 00;44;53;14
Joshua Hoffert
On the wall.

00;44;53;14 - 00;45;01;04
Joshua Hoffert
Of the temple were this, this amount. And that's because the rays of the soul have this much that they can let in. And so.

00;45;01;04 - 00;45;03;01
Joshua Hoffert
The light shines in, like.

00;45;03;01 - 00;45;04;16
Joshua Hoffert
Every single.

00;45;04;16 - 00;45;06;20
Joshua Hoffert
Little nuance.

00;45;06;23 - 00;45;14;10
Joshua Hoffert
Of the of the construction of the tabernacle. He's pulling apart to talk about the interior life of man. Right?

00;45;14;10 - 00;45;16;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. There we go. So much so like.

00;45;16;19 - 00;45;35;18
Joshua Hoffert
The, the, the for beasts that Ezekiel meets are the four gospels, and they're the four gospels, because this one has the face of a man, this one has this face that says this face, and this one represents the Gospel of John. This one's the gospel of Mark. So everything is not at face value. What is equal saw. Yeah.

00;45;35;19 - 00;45;48;05
Joshua Hoffert
Which is how we would go as equal saw. Weird, strange beast. He goes one. It's all analogy and metaphor and that's how they interpret it. Right. And which is so different from how we read Scripture. It is one of the things you start to be confronted with.

00;45;48;05 - 00;45;52;23
Murray Dueck
And you know, you know, where everybody got that from. Paul the Apostle, right?

00;45;52;23 - 00;45;57;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, Paul does it all, but we stole it out of context. All this time is about.

00;45;57;28 - 00;45;58;28
Murray Dueck
You know, it's the you go.

00;45;58;28 - 00;46;00;03
Joshua Hoffert
Back into the Old Testament.

00;46;00;03 - 00;46;01;19
Murray Dueck
With verses quoting about it's.

00;46;01;26 - 00;46;03;23
Joshua Hoffert
About well, I mean, one of the classic.

00;46;03;23 - 00;46;10;18
Joshua Hoffert
Example is the virgin birth. Matthew one Matthew says that, you know, a virgin will be with child.

00;46;10;25 - 00;46;11;16
Joshua Hoffert
And it's like, that's.

00;46;11;16 - 00;46;14;23
Joshua Hoffert
Not what Isaiah meant in Isaiah seven when he said that.

00;46;14;25 - 00;46;15;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;46;15;07 - 00;46;25;23
Joshua Hoffert
That's not what he Isaiah was talking to Ahaz about, a woman that was going to have a baby. And then Matthew goes, oh, by the way, this is, this is this is actually the deeper meaning.

00;46;25;25 - 00;46;27;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yeah. True meaning drives.

00;46;27;13 - 00;46;39;19
Joshua Hoffert
The it drives theologians today crazy because they try and go, you know, the argument for Isaiah. You know Isaiah seven and Matthew one is well, I think it's Matthew one, maybe Matthew two.

00;46;40;06 - 00;46;41;03
Joshua Hoffert
Well.

00;46;41;03 - 00;46;58;11
Joshua Hoffert
You know, like the word means the word for means woman, but can be virgin. And, and then in the Greek, in the Septuagint and, you know, Matthew, like, like to be a sign and had to be a virgin. And so all of them, they just pull this all apart and it's like you just go. Isaiah didn't mean that.

00;46;58;13 - 00;46;59;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;46;59;06 - 00;46;59;24
Joshua Hoffert
But Matthew.

00;46;59;24 - 00;47;01;02
Joshua Hoffert
Did because.

00;47;01;02 - 00;47;01;19
Joshua Hoffert
He interpreted.

00;47;01;19 - 00;47;06;29
Murray Dueck
You. You got to remember that is the cultural style of how the Lord spoke.

00;47;07;01 - 00;47;07;25
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly.

00;47;07;25 - 00;47;19;12
Murray Dueck
At that time. And I'm pretty sure Jesus a few times quotes. The, the Book of Maccabees and things that we consider almost a heretical Book of Enoch, I think.

00;47;19;19 - 00;47;20;09
Joshua Hoffert
Judy.

00;47;20;11 - 00;47;22;09
Joshua Hoffert
The Book of Jesus doesn't. Jude quotes the book.

00;47;22;09 - 00;47;27;15
Murray Dueck
Of yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. Exactly like what? That's like, oh, symbolic weird stuff.

00;47;27;19 - 00;47;28;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.

00;47;28;09 - 00;47;32;12
Murray Dueck
I can't remember which one the Lord quotes. He quotes something. Anyway, I'll find it if you want to.

00;47;32;12 - 00;47;33;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;47;33;21 - 00;47;51;02
Murray Dueck
One of the great ones I got to share. What thing? I love this, this is great. I got to throw it out here because it's it's kind of this the prophetic guy in me with symbolism. So remember when Matthew two, you know, they're living in Egypt now and, Joseph and Mary and Jesus, and then Joseph has a dream.

00;47;51;02 - 00;48;08;24
Murray Dueck
Go back to, you know, you know, Herod's dead. Go back. But when he finds his son is reigning in Jerusalem, he goes to Galilee. And then Matthew says this was to fulfill, the prophecy that Jesus will be a Nazarene, right? In the Old Testament. There's no prophecy that Jesus will be an out, you.

00;48;08;28 - 00;48;10;10
Joshua Hoffert
Know, out there. Yeah, yeah.

00;48;10;10 - 00;48;30;21
Murray Dueck
But it does fulfill prophecy because the word netzer, the word branch and the word Nazareth, Nazarene is based on the same thing, right? And out of the stump of Jesse will come a branch, a netzer. Yeah. Therefore, Jesus being born in Nazarene fulfills that prophecy. Yeah. The other thinking there. Oh, it's a wordplay. Therefore it's prophetic. Therefore it's God.

00;48;30;25 - 00;48;32;15
Murray Dueck
Write it in knowledge.

00;48;32;18 - 00;48;33;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right, that's right.

00;48;33;29 - 00;48;35;12
Joshua Hoffert
That's not true. So.

00;48;35;12 - 00;48;36;17
Joshua Hoffert
So I love that one.

00;48;36;23 - 00;48;57;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah I love all that stuff is, is and it, you know like and you had mentioned, you know, Paul reinterpreting the, the birth order of of Jacob and Isaac. Right. As the, as the two covenants. Right. You're like, what? Right. He sees the spiritual meaning of the text, right? Yeah. So so the the Bible itself does it.

00;48;57;17 - 00;49;00;03
Joshua Hoffert
And then the early church fathers do it and.

00;49;00;05 - 00;49;00;12
Joshua Hoffert

00;49;00;12 - 00;49;01;00
Murray Dueck
Drives. Yeah.

00;49;01;00 - 00;49;02;03
Joshua Hoffert
Theologians today. Yeah.

00;49;02;03 - 00;49;03;10
Joshua Hoffert
It doesn't it does because you.

00;49;03;10 - 00;49;04;17
Joshua Hoffert
Can't add us to.

00;49;04;20 - 00;49;18;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You can't explain it away. And when you get into, reformation and Post-Enlightenment, it's like, well know that the text needs to mean what the text means. And you're like, well, it's not really how Christian history has approached it, so that's fine. And.

00;49;18;28 - 00;49;26;10
Murray Dueck
The reason why this is important, everybody, is that there are things in Scripture about prayer, about inner prayer.

00;49;26;12 - 00;49;27;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that Jesus teaches.

00;49;27;24 - 00;49;30;03
Murray Dueck
But you have to look at the deeper meaning of the.

00;49;30;07 - 00;49;31;00
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;49;31;02 - 00;49;35;11
Murray Dueck
As well. We were talking about church history. Right. And that's why we're bringing this up. It's there.

00;49;35;13 - 00;49;45;10
Joshua Hoffert
So there's there's a great a great passage, in the, in the book, which it's a Russian Orthodox book called The Way of the Pilgrim.

00;49;45;13 - 00;49;45;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Yeah.

00;49;46;02 - 00;49;51;15
Joshua Hoffert
There's a, there's a, there's a the essentially the story is, you know, whether it's you.

00;49;51;15 - 00;49;52;09
Murray Dueck
Have it right here, actually.

00;49;52;14 - 00;50;00;16
Joshua Hoffert
Whether it's, apocryphal or a real person who had a real experience. Hard to say, because you don't know who the Pilgrim is, right?

00;50;00;18 - 00;50;00;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;50;00;27 - 00;50;22;26
Joshua Hoffert
They don't. And but it was written in the early 1900s. Late 1800s, I think, and written originally in Russian. But you can find, any number of copies today. And the. Yeah. So he has this conversation with a guy who he meets at a church, and they decide to go on a trip to a monastery.

00;50;22;26 - 00;50;30;01
Joshua Hoffert
I think they're going to Mount Athos, which is the Greek holy mountain, and he notices that the guy reads the Gospels all the time.

00;50;30;03 - 00;50;31;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yeah. And he's like, yeah, right.

00;50;31;28 - 00;51;09;23
Joshua Hoffert
Now, why do you read the Gospels all the time? And the guy says, well, there's that. I found great instruction on, the interior way of prayer in the Gospels. And he goes, oh, will you share that with me? So, so, so this is kind of where we're where the concept, I, you know, I originally we originally found the concept from, but, in terms of, in terms of this, but basically what he lays out is if you read through the Gospels, you take Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John not as a isolated books, but you take it as the, you know, because this is where we look at first Timothy talking about all

00;51;09;23 - 00;51;32;05
Joshua Hoffert
Scripture is God breathed. And so there's a deeper spiritual implication to it. This is where, Scripture is a mystery, is the Word of God. It's tangible. Now we have to start thinking of it beyond just a compilation of, you know, it's good and healthy to think through Scripture. As you know, the Psalms are, are poetic books.

00;51;32;11 - 00;51;38;13
Joshua Hoffert
The Proverbs are wisdom books. And we understand the differences between all those and, you know, are all that's all really helpful, right?

00;51;38;16 - 00;51;39;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;51;39;01 - 00;51;40;26
Joshua Hoffert
You know, the, the, the.

00;51;41;18 - 00;51;42;11
Joshua Hoffert
The gospels.

00;51;42;11 - 00;51;43;25
Murray Dueck
Are moral teaching of gospels.

00;51;43;25 - 00;51;48;11
Joshua Hoffert
More so all those can be helpful. Right? But we have to go. But the Bible.

00;51;48;11 - 00;51;49;13
Joshua Hoffert
Is.

00;51;49;15 - 00;52;03;00
Joshua Hoffert
The mysterious collection of writings that God breathed through people to inspire about who he is. Right. So we've got to think of it on that level, too. So then you start looking.

00;52;03;00 - 00;52;04;18
Murray Dueck
It's not you know, for everybody, right? It's not.

00;52;04;18 - 00;52;05;22
Joshua Hoffert
Either or. That's right.

00;52;05;24 - 00;52;06;03
Joshua Hoffert
Both.

00;52;06;03 - 00;52;24;20
Joshua Hoffert
And we have to be a book. We have to be a both. And so so we and I'm guilty of reading the Gospels and trying to understand what Jesus meant, which is a good thing to do. I'm not guilty of it. It's a good thing to do. And, and but sometimes we read the Gospels and we go, well, what's the broader thing that we're seeing here?

00;52;24;20 - 00;52;55;19
Joshua Hoffert
And so there's, there's this there's if you follow the teachings of Jesus from and when you pray, right. That statement in Matthew six is first teaching on prayer and see in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John what he teaches about the interior way of prayer. As you go through the Gospels, they each compound on each other. Yeah. And you start seeing in the teachings of Jesus a scheme for what the spiritual life looks like, what prayer looks like, what that encounter looks like.

00;52;55;19 - 00;53;16;21
Joshua Hoffert
And the introductory phase of it is enter into your heart and and then, you know, you you can look at the, the the Lord's Prayer. Right. The form of that, what kind of words we should use, how we express our needs. And then we start saying the condition of our heart and what that needs to be, right. Forgive us as we forgive our debtors.

00;53;16;27 - 00;53;27;03
Joshua Hoffert
Lead us not into temptation. And then you see the the way of union, right where he says, if your whole if your eye is, singular, it'll be full of light if it's.

00;53;27;06 - 00;53;29;13
Joshua Hoffert
Bad or,

00;53;29;15 - 00;53;49;07
Joshua Hoffert
You know, if it's not working correctly, you'll be full of darkness. Actually, that word for bad in, Matthew 623, it says, if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. The word for bad means, it's root word means to be full of pain, labor and hardship. Oh, really? And if, if if your eye is single, right?

00;53;49;07 - 00;54;11;04
Joshua Hoffert
It's clear and focused. Your. And you see God, you see life as it is. You're united with him. Then you're full of great light. So you're seeing like he's going, okay, it's the interior way. This is the this is the format for it. And so he's laying out a systematic approach to prayer. But then if you keep going right into Matthew seven, he's encouraging you.

00;54;11;04 - 00;54;14;18
Joshua Hoffert
Now these aren't isolated teachings. This is all you know. This is a.

00;54;14;24 - 00;54;16;17
Joshua Hoffert
Flow to flow, right,

00;54;16;19 - 00;54;30;14
Murray Dueck
Of growth and maturity because. Right. Jesus says to the disciples, up until this point, you have not prayed in my name. Now I tell you like it goes, oh, we did the Lord's Prayer over here, everybody. But now I'm going to teach you something else right?

00;54;30;20 - 00;54;31;14
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly. You know.

00;54;31;14 - 00;54;32;12
Murray Dueck
He's building upon it.

00;54;32;12 - 00;54;43;18
Joshua Hoffert
And building it builds throughout the Gospels. And then, you know, you've got the persistence in prayer. And Mark in Matthew seven, ask, seek and knock. Yeah. Right. So so this is all.

00;54;43;23 - 00;54;45;18
Joshua Hoffert
All kind of leading.

00;54;45;18 - 00;54;56;27
Joshua Hoffert
You somewhere. And then you can get into the next gospel as Mark and it's starting to compound on it. We see Jesus praying in the garden. And this is one is interesting where Jesus repeats himself in prayer, you know, thinking back to the very.

00;54;56;27 - 00;54;58;21
Murray Dueck
I should read that verse like, yeah.

00;54;58;24 - 00;54;59;23
Joshua Hoffert
And you're not.

00;54;59;23 - 00;55;01;29
Murray Dueck
Allowed to repeat, what would Jesus do in here?

00;55;01;29 - 00;55;22;03
Joshua Hoffert
We should think about it here, Mark in Mark 14 when he prays right another way, he offers us instruction in prayer. We see what he does right. So Mark 14 verse 39, so he goes, do it well. For one. He goes to get some money and it says that he goes. He prays that if it's possible, the r might pass from he says, father, ABBA, father.

00;55;22;03 - 00;55;46;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right now he's practicing father. Right. So we see the Lord's Prayer and practice here. All things are possible for you. Hallowed be your name. You're in heaven, right? So we see the same form format now it's compounding on it. We're starting to see the insight into how he prays. This is why the Garden of Gethsemane is absolutely brilliant, by the way, because it shows us the, the inner language of, the Godhead.

00;55;46;27 - 00;55;47;21
Joshua Hoffert

00;55;48;12 - 00;56;03;03
Joshua Hoffert
All things are possible for you. Take this cup for me. Nevertheless, not what I will, but you will, right? This is the Lord's Prayer in a different format. So now he's taking us even deeper. And then it says, in verse 39 again he went and prayed and spoke the same words. So now we've got repetition, right?

00;56;03;03 - 00;56;03;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;56;03;22 - 00;56;05;03
Joshua Hoffert
So he's he.

00;56;05;03 - 00;56;05;29
Joshua Hoffert
Is I.

00;56;05;29 - 00;56;07;12
Murray Dueck
Was surprised to see that there everybody.

00;56;07;13 - 00;56;07;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;56;07;21 - 00;56;25;06
Joshua Hoffert
He's he repeats himself. He says the same thing over and over again. And then he offers even more instruction when we get into Luke. Right. So now we're into the next verse. Next chapter, next book. Right. Luke, we've got the persistent friend who comes to the door and knocks and, and asks for bread for the people that are.

00;56;25;09 - 00;56;43;18
Joshua Hoffert
And it says, as long if he keeps knocking and he keeps asking right now there's persistence and repetition. Right again. Right. Same kind of same kind of idea, persistence and repetition. And then we've got the persistent widow, you know, we can touch on that where she continues to go to the judge and ask him the same thing over and over and over again.

00;56;43;18 - 00;57;02;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Yeah. So now we've got the we've got the teaching on prayer in Matthew six and seven, and now we've got the, the Garden of Gethsemane. We've got an example of it in repetition. And now we've got, the, the parables that. So now we've starting to go deeper and deeper and deeper through the gospel. Right. We're seeing a schematic, if you will.

00;57;03;00 - 00;57;03;12
Joshua Hoffert
Of what.

00;57;03;23 - 00;57;24;02
Joshua Hoffert
What spiritual interior prayer looks like. And then we get into John, where John talks about actually, when you worship in spirit, in truth, right? When you put your desire towards God and spirit and truth, the Holy Spirit comes within you and becomes a a flow of living water within you. Right? So now he's talking about the interior prayer.

00;57;24;05 - 00;57;28;29
Joshua Hoffert
Well, it's the well, it's not even another form of prayer. It's just as prayer gets deeper and.

00;57;28;29 - 00;57;29;08
Joshua Hoffert
Deeper.

00;57;29;10 - 00;57;34;09
Joshua Hoffert
Inside of you right now, it starts to pray. So then, you know, we can look at I.

00;57;34;09 - 00;57;39;00
Murray Dueck
Always like to say it's at that point it's kind of instead of you praying, prayer, praise you.

00;57;39;03 - 00;58;13;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, well, that's what that's Romans. Romans eight right. The Holy Spirit gives utterance within you through groans when you don't know what to pray. Right? You say that actually the God is praying within you at this point, right? So now you've got right now you've got okay, we've encountered the father, right? We've we've found the favorable disposition of the heart in the Lord's Prayer, and we've found the way of union in Matthew six, and that we're to continue in that and that we're to repeat those things, and that we're to continue to dive deeper into that.

00;58;13;05 - 00;58;18;11
Joshua Hoffert
And we've got some we've got some now we're starting to see, hey, there's actually a schematic here and now.

00;58;18;28 - 00;58;20;29
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, it's taking ruling out. Exactly.

00;58;21;00 - 00;58;43;04
Joshua Hoffert
But by taking root there's a flowing that happens in the interior life now because the Holy Spirit's rising up within you, and then you've got a now the invitation to abide in me, right? In John 15, the great teaching of the vine. Abide in me, and I abide in you. And then you've got the Jesus Prayer right, asking for anything in my name.

00;58;43;06 - 00;58;47;10
Murray Dueck
Now you haven't. Which means there's a deadline for until now.

00;58;47;10 - 00;58;47;28
Joshua Hoffert
Let's pray.

00;58;47;28 - 00;58;50;14
Murray Dueck
This way. So now we're going to add another step to this.

00;58;50;22 - 00;58;54;21
Joshua Hoffert
So from Matthew six. And when you pray, pray like.

00;58;54;21 - 00;58;55;22
Joshua Hoffert
This.

00;58;55;24 - 00;59;06;27
Joshua Hoffert
Up until then to John 16, you've got this compounding prayer teaching on prayer throughout the Gospels that are giving us a glimpse of a deeper and deeper way.

00;59;07;04 - 00;59;09;12
Joshua Hoffert
This is it.

00;59;09;13 - 00;59;13;18
Joshua Hoffert
It's like truth hidden in plain sight.

00;59;13;20 - 00;59;14;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right.

00;59;14;21 - 00;59;34;11
Joshua Hoffert
And it's just right there and obvious. But it takes someone pointing it out to you and going, oh my goodness, Jesus really elaborates on that. And then the apostles continue, because the Spirit's breathing through them in Scripture. Right. The the apostles continue that were to pray in all circumstances.

00;59;34;13 - 00;59;35;25
Joshua Hoffert
Right, without ceasing.

00;59;35;26 - 00;59;55;22
Joshua Hoffert
Pray without ceasing. So we've got multiple, examples of that, that the Holy Spirit is going to help us in our prayer in Romans eight, right? That it's not us that pray, but it's him that prays within us, that we're to pray in the spirit. Ephesians six. We're to pray in the spirit on every occasion. So now there, now it's going even deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper.

00;59;55;25 - 01;00;04;26
Joshua Hoffert
And so it's just it's fascinating when you see the narrative thrown together right there.

01;00;04;27 - 01;00;05;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

01;00;05;05 - 01;00;27;29
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, actually, the Gospels present a very rich understanding on what prayer truly is as a as a place of encounter, as a place of meeting with God. And it's like, it's like I'm I'm just been thinking about this going, well, why in the world have we not started here?

01;00;28;02 - 01;00;29;09
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah.

01;00;29;13 - 01;00;50;16
Joshua Hoffert
On helping people understand prayer. Right. It's it is we we start at well, we I think we can't because we get so stuck in, original context, exegetical, application, contemporary application and goal. What does it all mean? And it's like, well, we've we've just failed to really see the rich mystery there. Well, let me.

01;00;50;16 - 01;01;10;05
Murray Dueck
Throw one thing here, too, if you don't mind. Yeah. For example, building like building. And we get into the epistles, if you go to Philippians four where Paul says, rejoice in the Lord always, again I say, rejoice. So, you know, let it flow from the heart always. Let your seeking into everybody. Jesus is that abide in me.

01;01;10;05 - 01;01;11;10
Murray Dueck
I and you can ask whatever I.

01;01;11;10 - 01;01;12;00
Joshua Hoffert
Want, right?

01;01;12;01 - 01;01;34;09
Murray Dueck
So Paul is like, how do you do that? Okay, rejoice always. Again I say rejoice. Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near, right? If you're rejoice always, the Lord is near. Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, keep your heart warm. Stay abiding. Let those present your requests to God, and the peace of God will guard your heart.

01;01;34;11 - 01;01;56;19
Murray Dueck
If you do this, you get peace. If you rejoice, God is near. If you, with thanksgiving, the peace of God will guard your heart. And your mind in Christ Jesus. Finally, brothers, whatever. No motives. Pure flavors. Holy. What is Admiral? Think about these things. And the God of peace will be with you, right? So rejoicing God is near with thanksgiving.

01;01;56;22 - 01;02;16;11
Murray Dueck
Peace will guard you when you think about things that are good and holy. God will be with you, right? So. And and you don't you know what? He what is he doing there? So you kind of to think of it like this. He's teaching about inner prayer, the power of rejoicing flowing from the heart and and prayer with thanksgiving.

01;02;16;14 - 01;02;37;04
Murray Dueck
So think of it like this. I had these God rockets back in the day. I worked with street kids and these three, these three guys, four guys, you know, they were doing pretty good. And I might have shared this before, but I'll give it a little context. I can't remember. And and they wanted to, you know, think you might have a pretty rough background and the latest horror movie of chapter 20 is coming out and they're like, hey, can we go see this movie?

01;02;37;04 - 01;02;43;03
Murray Dueck
I'm like, guys, that's a bad idea. And they go, yes, pastor. And every time they call me Pastor Murray and meant they weren't going to listen to me.

01;02;43;03 - 01;02;44;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right, right.

01;02;44;04 - 01;02;50;23
Murray Dueck
It was a bad word. So they go see this movie and I get a call in the middle of the night, I don't 12:31 a.m., Pastor.

01;02;50;25 - 01;02;54;06
Joshua Hoffert
Barry were freaking out. There's these weird shadows that were feeling right and they go.

01;02;54;06 - 01;02;55;24
Murray Dueck
Did you guys go see that movie?

01;02;55;26 - 01;02;57;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it's Pastor Barry.

01;02;58;02 - 01;03;10;19
Murray Dueck
Well, okay everybody, what do they need to do? They need to repent. They need to ask Jesus to forgive them. Probably need to rebuke the enemy because they set their mind on icky, icky things. And they had an icky, icky small g god with them.

01;03;10;21 - 01;03;11;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

01;03;11;09 - 01;03;31;26
Murray Dueck
Because where you're focusing, you draw into relationship, right? It causes you to obey right in as a form of prayer. And what it's doing is, hey, you got to go deeper. God will be there. He's not talking, you know, symbolically here, you do this. God is with you. If you do this in prayer, peace will guard your heart.

01;03;31;29 - 01;03;51;02
Murray Dueck
If you think about these things, God is near. That's focus. You're being. It'll flow that way. This is a teaching on prayer and the effects of prayer to bring you abide in me. You know, Paul's laying this out here and and you know, it's right there. But we don't interpret that way. We just like it's just right there.

01;03;51;04 - 01;04;03;06
Joshua Hoffert
And you were saying we were talking about this, earlier, that when Jesus talks to his disciples in Matthew 13,

01;04;03;08 - 01;04;04;23
Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah. We should maybe go over that.

01;04;04;23 - 01;04;08;26
Joshua Hoffert
That's a yeah. Yeah, I think that's let's.

01;04;08;26 - 01;04;10;25
Joshua Hoffert
Cover that and then we'll we'll wrap up the rest of this.

01;04;10;26 - 01;04;34;04
Murray Dueck
Well, important thing because everybody, you know, again, when I was in Bible school and I learned a lot of good things there, but again, they were very much against any secret teaching in Scripture, like just the thought of things building that you don't see. I mean, and of course, you're like, why? Why would you be against that? And because, you know, the Bible is for the least educated, the least it should be for everybody.

01;04;34;04 - 01;04;49;28
Murray Dueck
And that's true. Right? Right. But but you do see this systematic teaching of Jesus that if you don't know what he's doing, that he's building thought upon thought, you know, precept upon step, and we're just like a chain of.

01;04;50;00 - 01;04;51;15
Joshua Hoffert
Lire and which we're talking.

01;04;51;15 - 01;04;54;15
Murray Dueck
About in prayer. But, he does it a lot.

01;04;54;18 - 01;05;10;03
Joshua Hoffert
And and just, just you can keep going. But just to point out that as the word of God, as he is the Word of God, right? It's not just that from one chapter to the next he's doing that. It's that from one author to the next he's doing.

01;05;10;03 - 01;05;11;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's right.

01;05;11;27 - 01;05;14;02
Joshua Hoffert
There's that. Okay, we got to take a bigger picture.

01;05;14;02 - 01;05;25;10
Murray Dueck
And and even a 30,000ft view from Old Testament of Jesus, the nature of Christ and the loving for the bride, right? To how it's revealed in revelation. I mean, this is one continual revelation of.

01;05;25;10 - 01;05;26;20
Joshua Hoffert
Jesus, right? Right. That's right.

01;05;26;20 - 01;05;36;20
Murray Dueck
So but he's doing that all the time. So we'll just go this through this quick, everyone. But it's it's important to see it, to realize this is in Scripture. And God as we mature there are hidden things.

01;05;36;20 - 01;05;37;27
Joshua Hoffert
So yeah,

01;05;38;00 - 01;05;54;18
Murray Dueck
If you look at Matthew 13 and this is an important teaching for the prophetic and learning symbolic language, and why so that that would be the context of where I usually teach this right? So you look at Matthew 13, Jesus is teaching on the parables. So I you know, I'm not going to read these things just because we're run out of time.

01;05;54;18 - 01;05;56;22
Murray Dueck
But, you know, you guys can see it yourself.

01;05;56;24 - 01;05;58;17
Joshua Hoffert
There's seven of them there in Matthew seven.

01;05;58;17 - 01;05;59;09
Joshua Hoffert
Matthew. Yeah.

01;05;59;12 - 01;06;23;16
Murray Dueck
So he's so, you know, the kingdom of heaven is like the sower of the seed. And he goes to the parable and the disciples come to him to say, why do you teach the people in parables? And Jesus makes a statement, their hearts have become calloused, for their eyes have closed. They do not hear. Right. But I say to you, write to the disciples, blessed are you for your of eyes that see and ears that hearing.

01;06;23;17 - 01;06;45;00
Murray Dueck
Listen to the meaning of the parable, and we usually take that to the mean. God's going to teach, teach in symbolic language. So these guys don't get it. But he's going to give the disciples all the answers because they're blessed. Like, and that's not what's happening here. And. Right. But and he starts to teach him this teaching about step by step chain of events, symbolic language.

01;06;45;00 - 01;07;05;03
Murray Dueck
And how do we know that. So chapter 13 chapter. Moving on. I'm going to do this a bit quick. Well, and at 13 he gives three parables. The net, I think maybe the treasure hidden in the field and the harvest. Any interprets one out of three said, I do it quick. You can find this yourself into chapter 13.

01;07;05;06 - 01;07;24;21
Murray Dueck
And he says, do you understand these things? Yes I do okay. So first he's interpreting everything and now he's interpreting one out of three and he's asking me if they get it. Okay. So I think it's Matthew 14 going a little quick. The the disciples are eating grain and the Pharisees go, how dare your disciples do that?

01;07;24;21 - 01;07;44;07
Murray Dueck
They're not washing their hands before they eat. And Jesus rebukes them, and he makes this famous statement, it's not the things on the outside that they follow you. It's the things that come from the heart. And G and the disciples say to Jesus, you know, could you explain this parable to us? And he says, now remember, it looks like they get the answer sheet, if that's how we interpret Matthew 13, blessed your eyes, they see you.

01;07;44;13 - 01;08;03;01
Murray Dueck
Do you not understand? He rebukes them that the things that it's not the outward things that defile a man, it's the things that come out of the heart of Jesus explains it, but it rebukes them. Okay, so first he's interpreting everything. Now he's interpreting one out of three, asking if they get it. Now, they're asking for an interpretation, but he rebukes them.

01;08;03;03 - 01;08;22;29
Murray Dueck
You guys should get this by now, right? And then in Matthew 15, Jesus and the Pharisees have had a fight. And again, and Jesus gets in the boat and says, beware of the yeast of the Pharisees. And the disciples go, oh, it's because we didn't bring any bread. And it says Jesus, aware of their understanding. How is it you still do not understand?

01;08;23;02 - 01;08;45;20
Murray Dueck
Remember that quote you be seeing and never understanding? Jesus is saying about the people, for their hearts have become calloused. Now he's saying it to the disciples, right? How is it that you do not understand but be aware of the yeast of the Pharisees? He just repeats it and then they go, oh, this is so first Jesus interprets all and then one out of three.

01;08;45;22 - 01;09;01;18
Murray Dueck
And then when they ask for an interpretation, he rebukes it, but he gives it. But now when they ask for an interpretation, he doesn't give it at all. He just repeats it. What's the what's he doing? So think of it like this. So my son Simeon, who is now 28, pretty close. Let's say he's in kindergarten.

01;09;01;18 - 01;09;20;02
Murray Dueck
He says, dad, there's that fuzzy creature. What does that. It's a cat. How do you spell that? Cat? Cat? Thanks, dad. And let's say he comes up to me in grade three. Dad having trouble with this thing here that's fuzzy over the tail. How do you say it's name? Simeon. Cat. You should have this by now, right? Grade three.

01;09;20;04 - 01;09;40;28
Murray Dueck
Right, Katie. Thanks, dad. But what if Simeon comes up to me in grade 12? Goes dad still having trouble with that fuzzy thing there? Do cat. How do you spell that? Come on, figure it out. You now, this boy now. Right. Because there's progressive learning going on and we see that right here Jesus is teaching them a language.

01;09;41;00 - 01;09;59;04
Murray Dueck
So they have eyes to see because they're learning a language, not because they always get the answer sheet. It's a new we see this progressive teaching of Jesus building line upon line, precept upon precept, which birthed the New Testament Church, the Gentile New Testament church in acts ten. Terrible language, no interpretation.

01;09;59;04 - 01;09;59;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

01;09;59;17 - 01;10;18;09
Murray Dueck
Walk it out right. And then the reason this is important is that some people go on. No, there's no hitting meaning there's no building. Yeah, well there it is right there. You know, look at it. And we're looking at the same thing Jesus is doing with prayer line upon line. We're going to start in the easy. And everybody memorize the Lord's Prayer.

01;10;18;12 - 01;10;37;29
Murray Dueck
But now we're going to go deeper. Now we're going to do internal power abiding. Let's talk about that. And now asking in my name. And now let's pay attention. The flow of the heart, what's flowing out. Let's go deeper. And so you know that that's again that these are important things. And Elijah was a man like us. And he prayed and it did not rain.

01;10;37;29 - 01;10;56;23
Murray Dueck
And then he prayed again like, that's a huge emphasis. Like as men like us and and and everyone I because I've been drinking caffeine, I'm going to kick one little cat or a cat. Kick the cat right here. I have like, lots of cats, but luckily one's not here because I might have to actually do it, but I'm speaking symbolically.

01;10;57;01 - 01;11;21;14
Murray Dueck
So larger was a man just like as he prayed and it did not rain. And then he prayed again in a raid. And I was teaching that passage. And the Lord said to me, what does that mean? And I'm like, it just hit me, you know, Holy Spirit. And I said, it doesn't say I can be like Elijah, like so, you know, our most famous hockey player in Canada, we could argue this is Wayne Gretzky, who, you know, just fabulous.

01;11;21;14 - 01;11;37;20
Murray Dueck
So I can be a hockey player. I mean, a lot. We're taking Elijah, the greatest prophet of the Old Testament. They still set a table for Elijah, right? So how can I little me be like the greatest prophet? Well, I can pray like him, I can. I could get out there and I can see. So that would be me.

01;11;37;20 - 01;12;00;13
Murray Dueck
Like saying I can play hockey like Wayne Gretzky. I can get out there, put my skates around, have it around the ice. If you don't, that's not what it's saying. It's saying Elijah is like you. It's reverting that Elijah segment like us. It's not like me, like him. He prayed. And and the idea here is that right? He's the greatest prophet of the Old Testament.

01;12;00;15 - 01;12;21;29
Murray Dueck
So I again remember John the Baptist is the Elijah to come. Jesus said about John the Baptist, Matthew 1111. Sorry, a little off topic, but I'll not really. I'll make it work. John is the greatest prophet of the Old Testament, something like that. But he's least in the kingdom of heaven. Well, how is that possible? Because Old Testament prophets were not full of the Holy Spirit.

01;12;21;29 - 01;12;45;15
Murray Dueck
Spirit come upon. So he's saying the New Covenant, New Testament Christians are full of the Holy Spirit. It's a different relationship. And that if we understand interior prayer, the flow from the heart of the river of God, you know, we have this flow. We have this ability, to to step up to that level. Now, there is the jar of clay and the power and everybody character.

01;12;45;16 - 01;13;13;27
Murray Dueck
Let's not, you know, but it's a massive comparison and it connects in prayer to Elijah. That's you know, that's really saying something about the value of prayer and all these ways. Jesus teaches a prayer and, and, that, that he's saying, wow, you have the Spirit of God in you. You know, think of the Old Testament prophet. But you guys, this is who you are here with the spirit.

01;13;13;27 - 01;13;26;07
Murray Dueck
If you learn, if you learn this, value, it. And so I you know, I hope today everyone we can, if we grab that one thing from today, we could value this. It's not in our church culture. Most of us. It's not something we think.

01;13;26;08 - 01;13;26;27
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, it's not.

01;13;27;00 - 01;13;35;28
Murray Dueck
It drives us crazy. We sit down and try to pray for 30s and go, what am I going to pray about? I need, I need more words. No, it's not about more words. That's babbling.

01;13;36;00 - 01;13;36;15
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;13;36;19 - 01;14;05;23
Murray Dueck
It's about internal connection by the power of the Holy Spirit. That's why he's picking Elijah, the most powerful God, but flowing from the heart. Right? River of water will flow out of your heart to eternal life. This flow, you know, I pray God strengthen the inner man so Christ may dwell in your heart by faith, so you would know how high and wide and long deep is the love of God which surpasses God knows it's head knowledge that you may be filled all the fullness of God, this inner reality flowing out.

01;14;05;26 - 01;14;13;11
Murray Dueck
That is the prayer closet. Go into your heart and pray. That's that place. And so everybody, that's my preach for today.

01;14;13;13 - 01;14;14;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;14;14;13 - 01;14;16;01
Murray Dueck
Sorry I got carried away there. But no, no, no.

01;14;16;01 - 01;14;33;22
Joshua Hoffert
That's good. The the Matthew 13 thing, you know, I, I love that. Well, there's the we see the progression there right in the, in and there's lots to say in that one of the things I want to highlight about that is.

01;14;33;25 - 01;14;34;20
Joshua Hoffert

01;14;34;22 - 01;14;37;07
Joshua Hoffert
When when Jesus says.

01;14;37;10 - 01;14;38;10
Joshua Hoffert

01;14;38;14 - 01;14;40;13
Joshua Hoffert
The hearts of the people have grown dull right here.

01;14;40;13 - 01;14;42;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. They don't. Back to the word heart again. Yeah.

01;14;42;18 - 01;14;51;12
Joshua Hoffert
He's he's he's quoting back. He's looking back at Isaiah. Right. Because he's quoting Isaiah. He's quoting Isaiah six. The message that I see.

01;14;51;12 - 01;14;55;18
Murray Dueck
Everybody that's actually news. That's what we're talking about. Just to throw that crazy.

01;14;55;26 - 01;14;57;17
Joshua Hoffert
Well that's where I'm, I'm just getting there. Oh.

01;14;57;17 - 01;14;57;27
Murray Dueck
You're there.

01;14;57;27 - 01;15;00;08
Joshua Hoffert
I'm sorry. Oh I still don't. Yeah.

01;15;00;08 - 01;15;02;07
Joshua Hoffert
Don't don't don't let the cat.

01;15;02;07 - 01;15;03;10
Joshua Hoffert
Out of the bag. Sorry.

01;15;04;05 - 01;15;04;29
Murray Dueck
That's her cat.

01;15;04;29 - 01;15;05;11
Joshua Hoffert
God.

01;15;05;13 - 01;15;06;22
Joshua Hoffert
I know he's just getting beat up.

01;15;06;22 - 01;15;08;15
Joshua Hoffert
Left, right or right? Goodness.

01;15;08;15 - 01;15;26;25
Joshua Hoffert
So he's quoting he quotes Isaiah six where Isaiah has this encounter with, the Lord, here I am. Send me, who will go to this? People tell them their hearts have grown dull. They can't hear. They can't see. If they heard and they saw they would turn and they heal. And then Elijah goes, Will how long? Oh, Lord.

01;15;26;25 - 01;15;30;26
Joshua Hoffert
And then you know, so so the the thing is.

01;15;30;29 - 01;15;31;12
Joshua Hoffert
What.

01;15;32;23 - 01;15;36;15
Joshua Hoffert
What Elijah has late or sorry not Elijah. Isaiah.

01;15;36;17 - 01;15;36;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;15;36;24 - 01;15;43;08
Joshua Hoffert
What Isaiah has laid out in Isaiah one through five is systematically what is.

01;15;43;11 - 01;15;44;05
Joshua Hoffert
Wrong.

01;15;44;05 - 01;15;51;11
Joshua Hoffert
With the nation of Israel and some of the things he talks about are, their cultural practices.

01;15;51;13 - 01;15;52;17
Joshua Hoffert

01;15;52;19 - 01;16;14;04
Joshua Hoffert
The he talks about their worship of powerful people, prophets and kings. He talks about their disregard for the poor. He talks about their disregard for the foreigner and the strangers. He talks about how, the women are just as bad as the men. And, and so the he talks about how because, you know, in that culture.

01;16;14;06 - 01;16;32;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right. The, the men were the typically the leaders and the use of the women are doing the exact same things. Right? They're not off the hook just because they're not part of the political elite. They're still problematic. Right? So that's so so he just goes through all of that. Right? Isaiah goes through all of that. Talking about all those problems.

01;16;33;00 - 01;16;53;09
Joshua Hoffert
You worship powerful people. You you, you don't take care of the poor. You have all these practices. You're mixing wine with this. You're getting drunk. The women are gossiping. They're they're taking advantage of people on the streets. No one's caring about the things of God. All this stuff. Right? And then he says their hearts have grown. They can't see or hear because their hearts are dull.

01;16;53;09 - 01;16;56;03
Joshua Hoffert
With the word dull literally means fat.

01;16;56;16 - 01;16;56;25
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;16;56;25 - 01;17;21;02
Joshua Hoffert
So their hearts are fat. They're full of all these things. Right. So because their hearts are fat and full, they can't see and hear okay. So their hearts are, are dull because they're fat and because they're fat they can't hear and see. Right. So the heart eyes of the heart I Paul, I pray that your eyes of your heart would be enlightened while their eyes are and darkened.

01;17;21;02 - 01;17;21;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

01;17;21;13 - 01;17;21;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

01;17;21;27 - 01;17;44;23
Joshua Hoffert
Which is back to if your eyes. Jesus in Matthew six. If your eyes are full of pain, hardship, and misery, if they're broken, if they're focused on multiple things and they're trying to pursue multiple things, then they're then how great the darkness will be, right? You won't be able to see and hear, right. So so here's the systematic teaching that's happening throughout the Gospels, right.

01;17;44;23 - 01;17;50;25
Joshua Hoffert
If your eyes are full of darkness, then you can't see and hear because your heart is fat.

01;17;50;28 - 01;17;51;23
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. Yeah.

01;17;51;23 - 01;18;07;10
Joshua Hoffert
So so he says to the disciples, but you can hear and see. Well, so what does that mean? It means their hearts aren't fat. It doesn't mean that they necessarily understand everything right away. It means that their hearts are no longer.

01;18;07;10 - 01;18;12;25
Joshua Hoffert
Full of all. They're teachable and teachable. Some level of humility. So? So what?

01;18;12;28 - 01;18;40;10
Joshua Hoffert
What's happened? Well, one, they've been called out of their vocation. Right? So they're no longer there's there's no thought or regard anymore to we're trying to make a name for ourselves in that sense. Right. They're called out of their their vocation. They're called away from their families. They're called into service to him. They spend time with him every day seeing what the kingdom is like.

01;18;40;12 - 01;18;51;21
Joshua Hoffert
And and then they start listening to the teachings like, blessed are the poor in spirit, right? So Jesus has started from the get go to empty their hearts.

01;18;51;23 - 01;18;52;27
Joshua Hoffert
Of all those.

01;18;52;27 - 01;19;05;13
Joshua Hoffert
Things. So their hearts are no longer fat and full. Their hearts are lean. And now they can hear and they can see. So their heart, the eyes of their heart are starting to wake up. Right?

01;19;05;13 - 01;19;09;04
Joshua Hoffert
So that's the that's the context here. That's the context here.

01;19;09;09 - 01;19;31;23
Joshua Hoffert
Their heart, they're starting to wake up and they're starting to see the world as it truly is, and him as he truly is, because now we get right just right after that. Right. And this is why you got to read the whole thing. 30,000ft, 40,000ft, 150,000ft, right. To be able to see it. Jesus walks on the water in the midst of all of this.

01;19;31;25 - 01;19;33;26
Joshua Hoffert
And, they.

01;19;33;26 - 01;19;54;03
Joshua Hoffert
They go, you know, he comes. He comes in and that's this is where they worship him and say, truly, you are the Son of God. Why? Their hearts are starting to get it. Yeah, right. They're starting to wake up there and tearing into the inner chamber of the heart. Right. They're starting to recognize that he's the actual is God.

01;19;54;05 - 01;19;55;17
Joshua Hoffert
They're starting to see it.

01;19;55;17 - 01;19;56;18
Joshua Hoffert
He's taught them.

01;19;56;18 - 01;20;13;01
Joshua Hoffert
He's got them to empty themselves. Now they're starting to understand. Right. So there's this whole thing. And now we start to get to okay, well, continue to practice this, right. The repetition of it. Now we start to get to the way of John for the Spirit's coming in.

01;20;13;29 - 01;20;14;02
Joshua Hoffert
The.

01;20;14;02 - 01;20;39;01
Joshua Hoffert
Flow. Right. So so you see the narrative of the disciples in Matthew 14 and you go, actually, it's really the narrative of every single one of us. The invitation to. Yeah, to learn the language of Jesus, as Mary said, to see the way of Jesus and go, oh, he's actually talking about he's he's in, in a way, in the in the teachings and all the stuff we've talked about.

01;20;39;01 - 01;20;47;08
Joshua Hoffert
He's systematically because because when he quotes Isaiah and. Right, Isaiah is sent to the people.

01;20;47;13 - 01;20;48;00
Joshua Hoffert
That won't.

01;20;48;00 - 01;20;50;17
Joshua Hoffert
Listen with a message from heaven.

01;20;50;19 - 01;20;50;27
Joshua Hoffert
As.

01;20;50;27 - 01;21;09;07
Joshua Hoffert
A sent one to correct their ways so that God can come. This is what this is. I mean, it's Jesus. It's like Isaiah is literally a prototype of Jesus. So when Jesus says, I'm here with a message from the kingdom, I'm a sent one and I'm showing you what the father's like, like it's all the same thing, right?

01;21;09;07 - 01;21;27;17
Joshua Hoffert
It's just another parallel of Isaiah one through five and so Jesus is going, look, your culture is the same. Your hearts are full and fat. Do you need to be lean and empty? You're got to be singular, focused, right? Your eyes have to be clear so you can see life as it is and me as I am. And when they finally do, oh, they start to.

01;21;27;17 - 01;21;28;24
Joshua Hoffert
Go,

01;21;28;27 - 01;21;33;13
Joshua Hoffert
I think I'm starting to get it right. Why 12? Why 12 baskets left over.

01;21;33;15 - 01;21;34;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Yes.

01;21;34;28 - 01;21;36;04
Joshua Hoffert
Why 12 baskets left.

01;21;36;04 - 01;21;37;12
Joshua Hoffert
Over.

01;21;37;15 - 01;21;50;08
Joshua Hoffert
For the 12 disciples. Exactly right. So you've got all of these things are pointing to something deeper. And when you start to take a step back and go, it's it's actually so now we're, you know, we're still talking about prayer.

01;21;50;10 - 01;21;50;26
Joshua Hoffert
But man.

01;21;50;27 - 01;21;56;24
Murray Dueck
You get to see the pattern of how Scripture builds. And if you don't see it, it's deeper and.

01;21;57;00 - 01;21;59;15
Joshua Hoffert
Deeper and deeper and same.

01;21;59;15 - 01;22;00;13
Murray Dueck
Thing.

01;22;00;15 - 01;22;16;03
Joshua Hoffert
And there and there in hidden in Plain sight, the mystery of the the interior way, the place of love, the place of encounter. And, you know, you've probably read all those verses a million times and never seen that before.

01;22;16;06 - 01;22;21;16
Murray Dueck
And I must say, I didn't see it all either. Everybody, you know, picking up Jesus showed it. I mean, sorry, Josh.

01;22;21;17 - 01;22;23;07
Joshua Hoffert
It's humbling. It's humbling. Like, it's like.

01;22;23;07 - 01;22;42;07
Murray Dueck
I'll hold the book up. Don't know. I know it's good for everyone to read this. I it's a classic. The way of the Pilgrim. Yeah. And about interior prayer and the pilgrim continues his way kind of part two. And the page quoted there about the systematic prayer growing upon him. One in plenty there is right there. And I you know, I forgot that was there.

01;22;42;07 - 01;22;49;02
Murray Dueck
I read that's a long room. Holy smokes. Look at that. So everyone you know, I didn't see it exactly either, so.

01;22;49;05 - 01;22;49;20
Joshua Hoffert
Well, we just.

01;22;49;20 - 01;22;52;09
Murray Dueck
I'm so happy. I'm so happy because it's amazing.

01;22;52;16 - 01;23;00;10
Joshua Hoffert
And we're, we're I think, you know, we're always we're always learning on the journey. We better always be learning on the journey or else. Yeah.

01;23;00;10 - 01;23;01;05
Joshua Hoffert
Absolutely.

01;23;01;12 - 01;23;36;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And and the, the I think one of the great revelations of following Jesus is realizing, the longer I follow him, the more, if father Mike put it this way, a a child doesn't and I've we've said this before. A child doesn't recognize that they've grown. They just recognize that their clothes don't fit. So as we grow, we recognize modes of being, ways of acting, ways of conceiving of ourselves that no longer fit us right.

01;23;36;28 - 01;23;59;20
Joshua Hoffert
We're more consciously aware of our patterns and behaviors than we were before. So we're not more put together. We're more aware of how broken we actually are. And he's in the business of putting us back together, making our eyes clear and single. That's what he does. So he's putting us back together, right? That's what he does. That's what he's doing with the disciples.

01;23;59;20 - 01;24;18;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Let's go through and let's clear out that junk in your heart. Let's go through and let's deal with some of your divisiveness, your division. Let's give you language to talk about, build culture within each one of you. And now you're going to start to get it. And it's like, you spent time with us and he showed us what the kingdoms like.

01;24;18;26 - 01;24;19;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;24;19;06 - 01;24;24;14
Joshua Hoffert
And and unfortunately in contemporary Christianity today.

01;24;24;17 - 01;24;25;14
Joshua Hoffert
You know, you take a.

01;24;25;14 - 01;24;27;02
Murray Dueck
Kingdom is within you.

01;24;27;04 - 01;24;28;16
Joshua Hoffert
Well, you take.

01;24;28;18 - 01;24;50;01
Joshua Hoffert
Today, you take it to your certificate, and now you're ready for pastoral ministry, right? And you've sat in, for a year. Maybe you got a bachelor's and you've sat in classes with 50 other students, maybe more. And, you've got no personal time with your professor, and they go stamp your paper, you're ready for pastoral ministry.

01;24;50;01 - 01;24;53;17
Joshua Hoffert
And you're like, yeah, well, it's like, what? Jesus.

01;24;53;17 - 01;24;57;20
Joshua Hoffert
12 like three.

01;24;57;22 - 01;24;58;17
Joshua Hoffert
What.

01;24;58;19 - 01;25;06;01
Joshua Hoffert
Three years of personal interaction and helping form and like, it's like we're just so far gone from.

01;25;06;14 - 01;25;07;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. From that what it looks.

01;25;07;18 - 01;25;23;11
Joshua Hoffert
Like from that paradigm, what it looked like when Jesus actually helped to shape, the disciples so that they could have that moment where they go, oh, he's the Son of God. He's right there. Right. And, you know, there's a lot of work we have to do to get back to that.

01;25;23;11 - 01;25;25;08
Joshua Hoffert
So. Well.

01;25;25;10 - 01;25;30;05
Murray Dueck
So everybody and that sets us up to talk about, the prayer of the heart.

01;25;30;08 - 01;25;30;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;25;30;16 - 01;25;35;14
Murray Dueck
And why the prayer of the heart? And what is the prayer due to the heart? And what is this shaped thing we started?

01;25;35;14 - 01;25;36;00
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;25;36;00 - 01;25;47;08
Joshua Hoffert
And it's not the prayer. The heart just as a as a, as a by way of, spoiler is the prayer the heart is not a prayer that you pray. It's a heart to praise.

01;25;47;10 - 01;25;50;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So. Well.

01;25;50;03 - 01;25;54;15
Murray Dueck
What a great way to end it right there. Maybe repeat that. Josh, if you don't mind. I think you're.

01;25;54;15 - 01;26;00;11
Joshua Hoffert
Of the heart. I got all these one liners that I never, I don't like plan for these things. They just come out and I'm like, oh, that was a good one.

01;26;00;14 - 01;26;02;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You got to keep that prayer.

01;26;02;17 - 01;26;07;02
Joshua Hoffert
The prayer of the heart is not a prayer that you pray. It's a heart that prays.

01;26;07;05 - 01;26;07;16
Joshua Hoffert
There we.

01;26;07;16 - 01;26;09;08
Joshua Hoffert
Go. And that's where we're getting.

01;26;09;08 - 01;26;11;02
Murray Dueck
That's what Jesus was trying to get.

01;26;11;02 - 01;26;11;24
Joshua Hoffert
To us.

01;26;11;24 - 01;26;12;18
Joshua Hoffert
John for.

01;26;12;19 - 01;26;14;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Yeah. So know. Yeah.

01;26;14;22 - 01;26;17;27
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. So so everybody.

01;26;17;29 - 01;26;23;09
Murray Dueck
You know what? It took us all this whole freaking half just to get to that one sentence. That explains it.

01;26;23;09 - 01;26;25;01
Joshua Hoffert
All. Yeah, I took a long.

01;26;25;01 - 01;26;26;07
Murray Dueck
Time, everyone. I'm writing.

01;26;26;09 - 01;26;37;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Eventually. And I think you could, for Murray and I, it's the the proverb has to be said as in the multitude of words, great wisdom will eventually emerge.

01;26;37;29 - 01;26;38;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

01;26;38;25 - 01;26;44;13
Murray Dueck
Or you're that old joke. You're like a German theologian. Why? You say in two words what you can say in 12.

01;26;44;14 - 01;26;45;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. There you go.

01;26;45;10 - 01;26;48;28
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah. That's right. You said it had like.

01;26;48;28 - 01;26;51;03
Murray Dueck
Basically two words there and we've said it'd like.

01;26;51;07 - 01;26;52;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's for.

01;26;52;10 - 01;26;56;03
Murray Dueck
Those guys who didn't do they talked about not bad. But like look what they did for an hour and a half.

01;26;56;15 - 01;26;56;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;26;57;00 - 01;27;00;05
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. We finally got there.

01;27;00;07 - 01;27;01;14
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. So.

01;27;01;16 - 01;27;06;09
Joshua Hoffert
Well everybody it's been a wonderful time. And, Murray, it's been a wonderful time.

01;27;06;21 - 01;27;07;02
Joshua Hoffert
Thank you.

01;27;07;20 - 01;27;19;03
Joshua Hoffert
More. Just so thankful for all of you guys that are following on the journey of voices from the desert. And, our we finally incorporated some, you know, some Tusken Raiders. So that's.

01;27;19;10 - 01;27;21;11
Joshua Hoffert
It took a long time, but it did.

01;27;21;21 - 01;27;22;04
Joshua Hoffert
And if you.

01;27;22;04 - 01;27;22;14
Joshua Hoffert
Could.

01;27;22;14 - 01;27;24;05
Murray Dueck
Prophesied that it would happen. And that's.

01;27;24;05 - 01;27;24;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;27;24;12 - 01;27;25;12
Murray Dueck
Fulfilled.

01;27;25;14 - 01;27;34;13
Joshua Hoffert
If you could tell your friends about the podcast, that'd be awesome. Share a link. Drop a review or, and on your podcasting platform.

01;27;34;15 - 01;27;35;16
Joshua Hoffert
That would be great. Love.

01;27;35;16 - 01;27;39;05
Joshua Hoffert
We love seeing the reviews and, and, and you know what?

01;27;39;05 - 01;27;43;29
Murray Dueck
I love them. They're quite they're quite interesting and I appreciate it. I, I, I have my favorite one, of course.

01;27;43;29 - 01;27;44;20
Joshua Hoffert
And I love that one.

01;27;44;22 - 01;27;46;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You like to inform the guy you like the.

01;27;46;21 - 01;27;50;21
Murray Dueck
I like that I, I mean, I was yeah I, I understand so.

01;27;50;21 - 01;27;51;14
Joshua Hoffert
I did.

01;27;51;17 - 01;28;01;29
Murray Dueck
Oh thank you I'm going to give you a big hug someday. You're a farm guy. You're right that I'm going to hug you. It be a French minute kiss you on the cheek. See what you think. Oh, no. It's many nights we don't actually,

01;28;02;01 - 01;28;04;15
Joshua Hoffert
But if you're. Well, if you're. I guess if you're watching on.

01;28;04;15 - 01;28;18;06
Murray Dueck
And send us some questions. Guys, I got a couple, that I'll bounce off. Josh, like. Oh, thank you for that question. Like, yeah, it's it's good because really helpful for us. For us, it's like we've done this so long that, you know, thinking this way and doing this.

01;28;18;07 - 01;28;18;22
Joshua Hoffert
Expert.

01;28;18;23 - 01;28;19;00
Joshua Hoffert
On the.

01;28;19;00 - 01;28;20;27
Joshua Hoffert
Topic. Yeah.

01;28;21;22 - 01;28;30;29
Murray Dueck
But we, you know, we miss things and questions are really, really helpful. Could you explain that? Yeah. You know, that would be nice. So if you if you have those we'd really like that.

01;28;30;29 - 01;28;44;06
Joshua Hoffert
So yeah you can comment comment on the video on YouTube if you're watching on YouTube or look us up on, you know, we were both on Facebook and there's a link to both of our websites. So you can send a contact request in with questions to.

01;28;44;06 - 01;28;44;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;28;44;14 - 01;28;56;17
Joshua Hoffert
And, or you can put a question in the review. We, we review those periodically. So to see what you guys are saying. So thanks so much everybody for your encouragement and how much fun this journey has been.

01;28;56;17 - 01;28;58;21
Joshua Hoffert
And yeah, we're going to continue.

01;28;58;21 - 01;29;02;12
Joshua Hoffert
Diving into the teachings of Jesus on prayer over the next few episodes.

01;29;02;12 - 01;29;06;16
Joshua Hoffert
So yes, that's right, that's right. Okay. There we go.

01;29;06;18 - 01;29;08;01
Joshua Hoffert
God bless.

01;29;08;03 - 01;29;09;05
Murray Dueck
You. Bye everyone.

People on this episode

Joshua Hoffert

Co-host

Murray Dueck

Co-host