The Inner Way: When Leaders Fall...

What is the aim of Christianity and salvation? Is it to get as many people saved as possible? To create a moral perfect society? To fulfill the vision of a particular ministry? 

The mark we set determines a lot about what we do. In light of all the recent scandals in leadership, Murray and Josh talk about what measurable effect inner prayer and the way of Christ ought to have on leadership. Join the Josh and Murray as they dig in to the topic!

For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/

For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

Transcript

00;00;15;26 - 00;00;32;15
Joshua Hoffert
That is egregious. A egregious U.S. cat with a capital N a capital C on capital. Yes, it is a horrific thing to say to be godlike.

00;00;32;18 - 00;00;36;13
Joshua Hoffert
Or not to defend the abusers.

00;00;36;15 - 00;01;01;26
Joshua Hoffert
And it's so opposite. It's so opposite of us all making myself weak. So obviously, Jesus quest for warrants spirit so opposite Paul to Timothy seek to live a quiet life. So opposite of John the Baptist. I must be so opposite of all these incredible that brought all the churches. And we look at it today, the.

00;01;01;28 - 00;01;09;20
Joshua Hoffert
Things. You ready for you look at it like.

00;01;09;23 - 00;01;13;24
Joshua Hoffert
The.

00;01;13;26 - 00;01;16;21
Joshua Hoffert
Welcome, everybody to another episode.

00;01;16;21 - 00;01;22;19
Joshua Hoffert
Of voices from the desert. Jesus.

00;01;22;21 - 00;01;25;06
Murray Dueck
Lonely place. Oh!

00;01;25;08 - 00;01;29;28
Joshua Hoffert
Whoo!

00;01;30;01 - 00;01;34;22
Murray Dueck
You know, it's funny. I wish I could show you his face because, Liam the puppy, not Liam.

00;01;34;26 - 00;01;36;09
Joshua Hoffert
Just looks looks over.

00;01;36;16 - 00;01;38;16
Murray Dueck
And when he went down. There he is.

00;01;38;22 - 00;01;48;10
Joshua Hoffert
Oh. Well. Oh, whoa, whoa. Poo poo from the Simpsons.

00;01;48;13 - 00;02;03;23
Murray Dueck
You can. Actually, it's funny, his sister doesn't. She? She doesn't do nothing. But he. When, When the, we're cutting wood and we're using the, not the sawzall, but something like that, and it just changes pitch. He just.

00;02;03;27 - 00;02;06;08
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, is he okay? Wow.

00;02;06;09 - 00;02;07;22
Murray Dueck
Oh, the sister looks at him like what?

00;02;07;29 - 00;02;08;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right.

00;02;08;25 - 00;02;13;02
Murray Dueck
Get out of your mouth. So it's funny that he has some howl in him. I don't know why, but.

00;02;13;06 - 00;02;14;14
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. Right.

00;02;14;17 - 00;02;21;23
Murray Dueck
Interesting. So see everybody that how it must be somewhat legitimate for Callum the dog to recognize it as an.

00;02;21;25 - 00;02;25;03
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. And and you are in a kind of a desert there.

00;02;25;03 - 00;02;27;12
Joshua Hoffert
So I am, you know Voight.

00;02;27;14 - 00;02;31;04
Joshua Hoffert
From the desert howling in the desert. Maybe we should call it howling in the desert.

00;02;31;07 - 00;02;31;19
Joshua Hoffert
That's.

00;02;31;19 - 00;02;36;05
Murray Dueck
We'll be today. Yeah, I know the desert until we were going.

00;02;36;08 - 00;02;36;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right, but.

00;02;36;23 - 00;02;38;12
Murray Dueck
It's right right there.

00;02;38;14 - 00;02;38;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;02;38;24 - 00;02;51;12
Joshua Hoffert
What's the what's one of the, one of the verses in the Old Testament that the Desert Fathers used were how they were jackals and, in the desert. And so that was like the demons.

00;02;51;12 - 00;02;54;29
Joshua Hoffert
Howling like that's, you know. Oh, I'm sure was that way.

00;02;55;02 - 00;02;59;02
Joshua Hoffert
Anthony the Great was was surrounded by howling.

00;02;59;03 - 00;03;00;29
Joshua Hoffert
Beasts,

00;03;01;02 - 00;03;06;15
Joshua Hoffert
At certain times. Right. And people would hear people that went to visit him, would hear the beasts and hear the fighting.

00;03;06;15 - 00;03;06;27
Joshua Hoffert
And.

00;03;07;01 - 00;03;08;24
Murray Dueck
Wow, I can't even imagine, actually.

00;03;08;24 - 00;03;12;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that was that's the that's the.

00;03;12;17 - 00;03;23;08
Joshua Hoffert
The record of history. Anyway, so I, I love the story where Anthony's, lamenting about how difficult it's been in the desert going, where have you been, God.

00;03;23;08 - 00;03;24;26
Joshua Hoffert
And yes. And he looks.

00;03;24;26 - 00;03;29;23
Joshua Hoffert
Up through the roof and sees a light. And here's a voice that says, I was just testing you.

00;03;29;26 - 00;03;30;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;03;30;05 - 00;03;31;15
Murray Dueck
20 years.

00;03;31;18 - 00;03;33;24
Joshua Hoffert
No. Yes. That's a I mean, that's where.

00;03;33;25 - 00;03;36;14
Joshua Hoffert
You're kind of diminishing it a little bit, but that's like, where have you been?

00;03;36;19 - 00;03;37;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I was just seeing.

00;03;37;22 - 00;03;38;28
Joshua Hoffert
What you would do.

00;03;39;01 - 00;03;42;20
Murray Dueck
That's now I will make your name great. Yes. That's you today.

00;03;42;28 - 00;03;43;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's.

00;03;43;26 - 00;03;50;04
Murray Dueck
True, but. Yeah. And then, I gave him quite a bit of authority after that. Just where have you been?

00;03;50;06 - 00;03;52;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Well, that's the that's part.

00;03;52;15 - 00;03;54;15
Joshua Hoffert
Of the interesting thing about.

00;03;54;17 - 00;03;55;19
Joshua Hoffert


00;03;55;22 - 00;03;59;12
Joshua Hoffert
About the historical record of Christianity.

00;03;59;14 - 00;04;01;25
Joshua Hoffert
And, and when.

00;04;01;28 - 00;04;13;29
Joshua Hoffert
You know, we've talked about this at great length, so we don't need to belabor the point, but the, just to just to, in brief, the, the evangelical church, how we've, in a way divorced ourselves from the history of Christianity.

00;04;13;29 - 00;04;15;07
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, right. For sure.

00;04;15;10 - 00;04;17;29
Murray Dueck
Anything go before Luther is heretical. Basically.

00;04;18;01 - 00;04;23;20
Joshua Hoffert
I was and Bible school sola scriptura. Well.

00;04;23;22 - 00;04;26;28
Joshua Hoffert
There's in in certain ways you want to affirm that.

00;04;27;00 - 00;04;27;16
Joshua Hoffert


00;04;27;20 - 00;04;29;29
Joshua Hoffert
Which it's good. Sola scriptura is good.

00;04;30;01 - 00;04;30;28
Joshua Hoffert


00;04;31;01 - 00;04;46;03
Joshua Hoffert
But we also now, at this point, seem like we have to add some caveats because sola scriptura, as a clarion call for the original church now says sola scriptura and never tradition.

00;04;46;05 - 00;04;47;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Yeah.

00;04;47;10 - 00;04;52;07
Joshua Hoffert
Which whereas whereas in, in history it was both and.

00;04;52;07 - 00;04;52;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;04;52;22 - 00;05;13;29
Murray Dueck
So and that's an important thing. I mean and they'll cause some problems with some people. Right. Right now too. But, but if you're going to battle something like or discuss at a very hot topic level, let's say homosexuality, right. The church, I mean, you can make I know one, Greek and Hebrew scholar told me you can you can make Hebrew mean anything you want to.

00;05;14;02 - 00;05;35;07
Murray Dueck
Right. You know, it's it's the problem is if you if you divorce church history of how the Holy Spirit has worked in the church for 2000 years. Right. And say, well, that doesn't count. And now it's just a battle of a definition over terms. And that's all you have. Yeah, right. You've taken how God has worked in this church for 2000 years and you go, this doesn't count.

00;05;35;12 - 00;05;37;01
Murray Dueck
What should we do with this issue?

00;05;37;04 - 00;05;37;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;05;37;29 - 00;05;41;25
Murray Dueck
Well, if you looked at how the Holy Spirit's been working in the church for 2000 years, you might have.

00;05;41;25 - 00;05;42;26
Joshua Hoffert
We might have them.

00;05;42;29 - 00;05;58;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah, you might have. But now, if you throw that out. Right. And I mean, again, that old quote that, that, that, that, tradition is I think it's tradition or religion maybe is a word that use their but they mean the same thing. It's not the worship of the ashes, it's the preservation of fire.

00;05;58;27 - 00;05;59;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;05;59;23 - 00;06;16;25
Murray Dueck
And and, you know, just the damage it's done to the church and where we've got ourselves today because it, you know, we can't say, well, how's the church? How's the Holy Spirit? Walk this out with the church for last 2000 years? Well, look at that. That's that's just, heretical.

00;06;17;02 - 00;06;28;01
Joshua Hoffert
And for the charismatic, for the charismatic Pentecostal strain, you know, that we often speak into that. It's like you can't look past 1904, because the only thing that defines that is the Azusa Street.

00;06;28;03 - 00;06;28;22
Murray Dueck
Correct?

00;06;28;22 - 00;06;36;01
Joshua Hoffert
Reintroduction of the Holy Spirit. Right. So we can't even look at we we're actually not as a charismatic Pentecostal, really.

00;06;36;08 - 00;06;36;26
Joshua Hoffert
Allowed.

00;06;36;26 - 00;06;40;27
Joshua Hoffert
To look at how the Holy Spirit manifested even in Luther's life or Calvin's life.

00;06;41;00 - 00;06;41;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;06;41;09 - 00;06;47;02
Joshua Hoffert
We're supposed to look at. Well, it was tongues. It was extraordinary miracles. And this is what it has to be, right?

00;06;47;05 - 00;06;49;08
Murray Dueck
That's when the church got to be reborn.

00;06;49;08 - 00;07;13;28
Joshua Hoffert
And yeah, so so then there's problem. There's always, you know, every time we divide ourselves from our history, we end up having problematic theology when we say, and when I, when I mean by that is that we just twist our thoughts about who God is. And so one of the reasons I bring that up with Anthony is there's this great quote from Anthony's, one of Anthony's disciples, Bishop Ammons.

00;07;14;01 - 00;07;15;17
Joshua Hoffert
And we've called this before.

00;07;15;17 - 00;07;18;02
Murray Dueck
But it's I'm today it's going to be very apropos.

00;07;18;04 - 00;07;37;03
Joshua Hoffert
It will be apropos. Yeah. So Amona says this is why the Holy Fathers also withdrew into the desert alone, met many such Elijah the Tish byte, and John the Baptist. For do not suppose that because the righteous were in the midst of men, it was among men, that they had achieved their righteousness. Rather, having first practiced much quiet, they then received the power of God dwelling in them.

00;07;37;10 - 00;07;55;09
Joshua Hoffert
And then God sent them into the midst of men, having acquired every virtue, so that they might act as God's provision and cure men of their infirmities. For they were physicians of the soul, able to cure men's infirmities. This was the need for which they were dragged away from their quiet and sent to men. But they are only sent when all their own diseases are healed.

00;07;55;09 - 00;08;08;09
Joshua Hoffert
For a soul cannot be sent into the midst of men for their edification, if it has some defect of its own, and those who go before they are made perfect, go with their own will, and not at God's so among us. Though he quotes Elijah and.

00;08;08;15 - 00;08;09;28
Joshua Hoffert
John of Modus.

00;08;09;28 - 00;08;12;15
Joshua Hoffert
Firmly has Anthony in mind when he says.

00;08;12;15 - 00;08;13;16
Joshua Hoffert
This. Yeah, right.

00;08;13;17 - 00;08;24;12
Joshua Hoffert
And Anthony Anthony goes into the desert, doesn't go into the desert to make anything great, to make his name greater. Anything goes into the desert to to seek God and to fight the demons.

00;08;24;17 - 00;08;24;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;08;25;05 - 00;08;41;16
Joshua Hoffert
And he conquers the demons because he's been conquered. And he conquers them by grace, not by his own effort. Right. This is what we see. Why, God, why have you. You've abandoned me. I wanted to see what you would do. Now I'm here with you. Right? That whole story, which we already shared, was all about the grace of God coming to help him overcome.

00;08;41;18 - 00;08;42;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;08;42;17 - 00;08;47;25
Joshua Hoffert
And to aid him in overcoming. So Amona is firmly has rooted in his understanding.

00;08;48;02 - 00;08;48;10
Joshua Hoffert
Of.

00;08;48;10 - 00;09;02;05
Joshua Hoffert
Practical theology. Anthony the great right. He's he's in the tradition and in the history. And then he sees in Anthony the example of Elijah. He sees in Anthony the example of John. So he's connecting tradition, theology, practice.

00;09;02;07 - 00;09;03;09
Joshua Hoffert
And,

00;09;03;11 - 00;09;14;16
Joshua Hoffert
And history. So he's looking at the whole thing. Right. Today we've divided that out so, so much that we just end up being so confused and scattered and all over the place yet again.

00;09;14;16 - 00;09;33;21
Murray Dueck
You know, all we have to do is look at C.S. Lewis, right when he said, for every modern book you read, you should read two books. You know, historical ones or read Desert Fathers every hundred years back. And right to name drop. It's like, you know, we're not the only ones of or if you read, you know, it's it's interesting reading.

00;09;33;21 - 00;09;43;27
Murray Dueck
Let's say Tozer or, or even Peter Cicero, which is really modern, like right now. Right. Emotional healthy spirituality where they're going back to these sources. Right.

00;09;43;27 - 00;09;46;08
Joshua Hoffert
And yeah. And.

00;09;46;10 - 00;09;55;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And the reason, you know, we're still going to talk about, you know, prayer here, everybody, that's where we're going. But kind of the why I, I, I got a bit of a bug in my bonnet today.

00;09;55;00 - 00;09;56;27
Joshua Hoffert
So yeah that's that.

00;09;56;27 - 00;10;02;23
Joshua Hoffert
Well, let's say this. All right, here I'm going to say this first and then we'll reveal the true purpose of our.

00;10;02;26 - 00;10;03;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;10;03;08 - 00;10;05;24
Joshua Hoffert
Recording. Right.

00;10;05;27 - 00;10;07;02
Murray Dueck
I don't even have up on it.

00;10;07;04 - 00;10;08;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You don't. Well, you know.

00;10;08;16 - 00;10;13;03
Joshua Hoffert
We could get you on. If anybody wants to donate, donate towards the,

00;10;13;05 - 00;10;13;20
Murray Dueck
The Murray's.

00;10;13;20 - 00;10;15;22
Joshua Hoffert
Bonnet for America. Bonnets for Murray.

00;10;15;22 - 00;10;17;23
Murray Dueck
Which might be a cowboy hat.

00;10;17;25 - 00;10;20;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's right, that's right. But a so.

00;10;20;08 - 00;10;21;05
Murray Dueck
Again.

00;10;21;07 - 00;10;23;23
Joshua Hoffert
So what what just what Amona says.

00;10;23;23 - 00;10;30;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Because we're going to characterize this. Yeah. Just briefly. Right. We've actually read this quote a couple times in the past, especially in the.

00;10;30;05 - 00;10;32;15
Murray Dueck
Just such a good.

00;10;32;18 - 00;10;33;02
Joshua Hoffert
It is, you know.

00;10;33;02 - 00;10;33;18
Murray Dueck
Catch.

00;10;33;26 - 00;10;34;00
Joshua Hoffert
It.

00;10;34;02 - 00;10;40;06
Murray Dueck
You know, it's a good catchment for the wider Desert Fathers going into the desert. Why are they doing that.

00;10;40;10 - 00;10;40;21
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;10;40;27 - 00;10;48;19
Murray Dueck
And, and and it's it's not to just torture themselves. It's, it's to become the get the passions out of the.

00;10;48;21 - 00;10;49;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;10;49;01 - 00;11;04;18
Murray Dueck
That's right. And vainglory and laziness and argumentative and anger and covetousness to get that on dealt with. Right. And then God sends them back. Why is this important? Well that's right. Brings us back to our topic.

00;11;04;21 - 00;11;15;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So so what a bonus. What bonus lays out certain. I just want to point this out. Yeah, yeah. As we as we move into the conversation. So the first thing he says is.

00;11;15;24 - 00;11;17;25
Joshua Hoffert
Don't assume that.

00;11;18;01 - 00;11;26;27
Joshua Hoffert
Because the righteous meaning Elijah and John and then Anthony, because you saw them in the midst of men, that they received their righteousness in the midst of men.

00;11;26;29 - 00;11;27;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;11;27;12 - 00;11;49;08
Joshua Hoffert
He says, rather, they first received anything of note in silence and quiet before God. Right? They first having first practice much quiet, they receive the power of God dwelling in them. Okay. So that's the first thing. And they're we're talking decades of removal from for both of these men and for Anthony and others as well.

00;11;49;11 - 00;12;00;19
Murray Dueck
And I'll just throw in, and yeah. See Seraphim right here, you know, Russian late 1800s. Yeah. Now work on yourself and thousands will be.

00;12;00;22 - 00;12;01;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Yes.

00;12;02;02 - 00;12;17;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Which is that's the principle there. So they practice much quiet or Hezekiah. They practice the life of stillness. They receive the power of God dwelling in them. The Holy Spirit came to them, and then God sent them in the midst of men. And and then he says.

00;12;17;24 - 00;12;18;15
Joshua Hoffert


00;12;18;17 - 00;12;27;08
Joshua Hoffert
But they didn't want to go, right? They didn't go on their own. Well, they went on, gods, they actually had to be dragged. What does he say? He said,

00;12;27;11 - 00;12;29;16
Joshua Hoffert
There for there.

00;12;29;18 - 00;12;47;08
Joshua Hoffert
This was the need for which they were dragged away from their quiet and sent to men. Okay, so that's an important note that among us is saying is that they they didn't want to leave the place of quiet before God to go heal the infirmities of others. That's a distinct difference.

00;12;47;11 - 00;12;47;16
Joshua Hoffert
From.

00;12;47;16 - 00;12;48;22
Joshua Hoffert
What we see today.

00;12;48;25 - 00;12;49;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;12;49;04 - 00;12;59;04
Joshua Hoffert
Is a monas is going actually, they discovered something so beautiful in silence and solitude before God. They didn't want to leave that place, and that marked their life.

00;12;59;07 - 00;13;28;28
Murray Dueck
And I, you know, everyone, if you want to just grab that. I mean, I don't even know if this is true, but, pastors, we always use this in sermons about, the shepherd who has this one little lamb that runs away all the time. And finally they have to make a decision and they break the little lamb's leg, which I hope this is true, having lambs and they hanging around the shepherd's neck and that that little lamb spent the next six months or so listening to the shepherds voice around his neck every day, you know, hearing his heartbeat, the smell of his clothes.

00;13;29;00 - 00;13;47;21
Murray Dueck
And he's so used to just being with the shepherd that when he they put him down, he never leaves his shepherd sides again. He's just looking at the shepherd. And that's the point here of the desert. Right? So you go in and become popular in ministry. It doesn't really matter because you're so busy looking at the shepherd, right?

00;13;47;21 - 00;13;48;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;13;48;00 - 00;13;48;18
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;13;48;26 - 00;13;55;19
Murray Dueck
Not about what people think about you. Not about your gifts. Not about miracles, not about. It's about Shepherd and your connection to him.

00;13;55;21 - 00;13;56;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;13;56;01 - 00;14;00;04
Murray Dueck
That's right. And the need to have that is part of your training.

00;14;00;07 - 00;14;17;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. And and the by the way, the term quiet here is, what I'm, I'm assuming I don't have the actual Greek in front of me, and not that I read Greek, but I'd recognize it is would be the word Hezekiah, which is, you know, for for our listeners, you know, if you're in.

00;14;17;26 - 00;14;19;01
Murray Dueck
All five of them.

00;14;19;03 - 00;14;39;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, all five of them, if you're if you're in maybe the, the, the 3 or 400 A.D. and you were born around them, you would hear that term and apply it to something particular. Today we're like, oh, it just means like my kids aren't in the room. Know the term Hezekiah really means the inner way, right? That is really what it means, right?

00;14;39;05 - 00;14;55;20
Joshua Hoffert
So when we're talking about inner prayer, when what he's saying that they that they practice much quiet is that they dove into the inner way and discovered God in the midst of them. That's what he's saying, right? So this is, again, we're talking about inner way and inner prayer. Yeah. And this is the thread.

00;14;55;23 - 00;15;05;02
Murray Dueck
As as again, Teresa of Avila said, if I knew God deemed to make my little soul his home, I would not have left them there alone. So often.

00;15;05;04 - 00;15;07;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Exactly. And so that's what has to do.

00;15;07;23 - 00;15;09;14
Murray Dueck
They're always so busy. External.

00;15;09;16 - 00;15;22;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So we're talking in her way. We're talking inner prayer. This has been the thread for the last, month or two. We've been going through the teachings of Jesus, all that stuff, and which is where we still are. But there's something particular we want to address. And so.

00;15;22;20 - 00;15;23;19
Joshua Hoffert
I'm going to I'm.

00;15;23;19 - 00;15;25;00
Joshua Hoffert
I think I'm going to read one other.

00;15;25;00 - 00;15;28;03
Joshua Hoffert
Quote. Okay. And then

00;15;28;06 - 00;15;32;23
Joshua Hoffert
And then yeah, we'll keep going. So this is Isaac the Syrian.

00;15;32;25 - 00;15;34;17
Joshua Hoffert
Okay.

00;15;34;19 - 00;15;51;20
Joshua Hoffert
Isaac the Syrian. Isaac the Syrian, seventh century. So a monas is fourth century. Isaac the Syrian, seventh century. Okay. And got there this now, you know, just so you get it right there. The tradition is compounding on itself. So they're seeing the examples of men and women and they're learning and they're.

00;15;51;20 - 00;15;52;15
Joshua Hoffert
Applying.

00;15;52;20 - 00;16;00;18
Joshua Hoffert
Practical theological principles from one generation to the next. And so this is what Isaac. So think about it in light of a monas is looking at.

00;16;00;21 - 00;16;02;03
Joshua Hoffert
Anthony, seeing.

00;16;02;03 - 00;16;04;07
Joshua Hoffert
Shades of Elijah and John.

00;16;04;07 - 00;16;07;11
Joshua Hoffert
And Anthony. Oh they went into the quiet.

00;16;07;17 - 00;16;17;21
Joshua Hoffert
Practice the inner way spent 20 years obscure. And when they came out they didn't want to be known. But God used them for something because he knew I can trust these guys. They don't.

00;16;17;21 - 00;16;18;06
Joshua Hoffert
Want.

00;16;18;09 - 00;16;39;01
Joshua Hoffert
Any great name or any great credibility. Right? So a Monas recognizes that. And then Isaac the Syrian says this. From history we see that many have performed astonishing miracles, have raised the dead, and have labored to return those who are erring to the straight path in the true faith. They worked great miracles, and by their efforts led many to knowledge of God.

00;16;39;03 - 00;16;53;17
Joshua Hoffert
Later, however, those who gave life to others fell into base passions and put themselves to death, and they scandalized many when from their daily behavior, their actions became known. This happened because they took no care for the health of their own souls. Think about that.

00;16;53;17 - 00;16;54;15
Joshua Hoffert
In light of.

00;16;54;17 - 00;17;14;14
Joshua Hoffert
That Hezekiah practicing quiet. This happened because they took no care for the health of their own souls, which were sick, but instead cast themselves into the sea of the world in order to heal the souls of others while they themselves were still ailing and they were lost since they did not have in their souls strong hope in God, in the aforementioned way.

00;17;14;16 - 00;17;15;00
Joshua Hoffert
So think.

00;17;15;00 - 00;17;28;13
Joshua Hoffert
About that. In light of what Amona said, they went into the desert to the place of quiet practice. The inner way discovered God and were cured of their infirmities. And then God, seeing them cured of their infirmities, said, now I can send.

00;17;28;13 - 00;17;29;19
Joshua Hoffert
You home, right?

00;17;29;25 - 00;17;42;11
Joshua Hoffert
Isaac is saying, we've actually witnessed people who it was the opposite. They threw themselves into ministry. They never took care of the infirmities of their soul. In fact, they ignored them time after time after time again, and.

00;17;42;11 - 00;17;43;14
Joshua Hoffert
Though they looked like.

00;17;43;14 - 00;17;52;19
Joshua Hoffert
They had great success, the ultimate outcome of their ministry was damaging all the people that they had helped, and more even so, even beyond that, because.

00;17;52;22 - 00;17;52;29
Joshua Hoffert
They.

00;17;52;29 - 00;18;15;09
Joshua Hoffert
Never discovered the inner way, they never discovered the life of quiet before the Lord. And because of that, they were never healed. And because they were never healed, they ended up hurting many. And so, you see, these are juxtaposing like like the early church, right? Talks about the way of light and the way of dark, the way of life and the way of death.

00;18;15;11 - 00;18;24;05
Joshua Hoffert
We're seeing that through. You see that through set throughout thread throughout Scripture, right? You see that thread from the, descendants of.

00;18;24;08 - 00;18;24;26
Joshua Hoffert
Seth.

00;18;25;03 - 00;18;26;20
Joshua Hoffert
And Adam and the descendants.

00;18;26;26 - 00;18;27;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;18;27;13 - 00;18;41;13
Joshua Hoffert
Abel. Right. In Canada, descendants of Cain in Kent and the Cain and Abel story. Right. One of them leads to Lamech, who practices wicked, wicked evil results in the Tower of Babel.

00;18;41;15 - 00;18;45;23
Joshua Hoffert
And, and then one of them is,

00;18;45;26 - 00;18;51;02
Joshua Hoffert
Produces those who started calling on God, like it's just clear through Scripture. There's this thread, right?

00;18;51;08 - 00;18;51;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;18;51;13 - 00;18;59;01
Joshua Hoffert
And we see that thread here is, hey, we've seen it, guys. We've seen it again and again and again. And the reflection that the early church fathers.

00;18;59;01 - 00;19;00;15
Joshua Hoffert
Had on.

00;19;00;17 - 00;19;06;10
Joshua Hoffert
Why do these leaders and here we go, why do these leaders.

00;19;06;12 - 00;19;09;05
Joshua Hoffert
Continue to fall.

00;19;09;05 - 00;19;11;13
Joshua Hoffert
And hurt and scandalize many?

00;19;11;16 - 00;19;13;16
Joshua Hoffert
Why? Because they.

00;19;13;16 - 00;19;16;02
Joshua Hoffert
Never took care of their souls.

00;19;16;02 - 00;19;17;12
Joshua Hoffert
Before the Lord.

00;19;17;15 - 00;19;34;22
Joshua Hoffert
They never took the time to open themselves up to God. They never discovered the power of his presence in their inner man. They never discovered the life that brings healing to the inside. They threw themselves into the ministry and shipwrecked themselves because of it.

00;19;34;24 - 00;19;35;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So why are we.

00;19;35;26 - 00;19;42;02
Joshua Hoffert
Talking about this? Because there's been 1001 stories that have come out in the last six months.

00;19;42;05 - 00;19;42;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;19;42;14 - 00;19;43;29
Murray Dueck
We've got there's another one.

00;19;44;00 - 00;19;50;18
Joshua Hoffert
So now there's another one that just just in the last week came to light with Morningstar and Rick Turner and Chris Reed. So.

00;19;50;20 - 00;20;11;09
Murray Dueck
You know, and I'm just going to I don't know if I should throw this in after, but maybe I'll, I'll, I'll, you know, I'll throw it in here. So everyone listening and why is this important? Because because, you know, we we still believe that that spiritual authority comes other from your gifting or anointing or from your education.

00;20;11;11 - 00;20;13;17
Murray Dueck
Right. If I got a doctorate degree, not.

00;20;13;17 - 00;20;16;13
Joshua Hoffert
We don't we don't believe that. But cultural Christianity, I'm.

00;20;16;13 - 00;20;18;28
Murray Dueck
Sure I used to believe that back in the 1980s.

00;20;18;28 - 00;20;23;18
Joshua Hoffert
So I'm just clarifying. You're, you're not making a statement about, well, voices from the desert. People believe.

00;20;23;19 - 00;20;23;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;20;23;26 - 00;20;27;26
Murray Dueck
Go back. Listen to the first episode. You know, cultural Christianity believes.

00;20;27;26 - 00;20;28;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So.

00;20;29;00 - 00;20;34;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that authority comes from your education, your gift, whatever. Right. I agree with with what you're saying.

00;20;34;15 - 00;20;53;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So, I mean, the story of Amy Allen. So Allen is one of these big 50s revivalists, right. And the story goes, I mean, this guy's healing the sick cast of demons. He's got a tent of, like, 20,000 people, something like that. And so, the story goes, he's outside and there's this demonized guy trying to get him, and six guys are holding this guy to the ground.

00;20;53;24 - 00;21;11;22
Murray Dueck
Well, Allen, you know, he's about 20ft away. He's leaning on the car watching. Well, this demonized guy throws off all six of them and charges Allen and almost has his hands around his neck where Allen goes, come out in the name of Jesus. The guy is delivered, right? Well, the six guys on the ground pick themselves up and go, why didn't you do that sooner?

00;21;11;22 - 00;21;29;09
Murray Dueck
You know, because then they wouldn't have had to get all beat up. He goes, well, I had a vision of this very thing last night. And in the vision the car was, was yellow orange. But in real life it's black. And I was wondering about that when the sun began to set and the light glinted off the car and it turned yellow orange, and I knew I had the anointing.

00;21;29;12 - 00;21;45;26
Murray Dueck
Right. Well, what you don't know about Allen is that he would go to his meetings later on with a prostitute on each arm, drunk out of his mind, and they would try to prevent him from getting on stage, and he would slur the words when the anointing comes upon me, you know the presence of God would be here and he would.

00;21;45;26 - 00;21;57;06
Murray Dueck
He'd get on stage, grab the mic, people would be healed, sick, delivered leave of the prostitutes right? Because we believe once you have the anointing and presence, that means you have intimacy. No it doesn't.

00;21;57;08 - 00;21;59;21
Joshua Hoffert
It does not mean that and and credibility.

00;21;59;21 - 00;22;20;12
Murray Dueck
And God is with you and therefore all your theology is right. No, your theology is not all right. And no, the anointing does not prove your character. Your character proves your character. Yeah. And that's as the Desert Fathers would say as I'm drinking coffee. Sorry, I'm talking to my church. No, no. The true sign of being filled with the Holy Spirit is loving your enemy.

00;22;20;14 - 00;22;38;28
Murray Dueck
Because only through the Holy Spirit can you love your enemy. Anybody can pray for anybody with the anointing. And let me tell you, you go into a room. Everybody loves you. The power. God's there. You do stuff. It's pretty easy when that room full of faith it. I hate to tell you, it's very addictive, you know, but why should I work on my character?

00;22;39;01 - 00;22;59;21
Murray Dueck
Everybody loves me. Money coming in. God's doing stuff. Ooh, look at me. I'm holy, obviously, because God's here and. Nope, don't work that way. I wish you did. So, but there's a problem. In our charismatic church. We're still making our relationship with God based on externals and why interior prayer and change.

00;22;59;21 - 00;23;00;15
Joshua Hoffert
Is.

00;23;00;17 - 00;23;06;13
Murray Dueck
So important. Because those are false. They're full signs of our maturity.

00;23;06;13 - 00;23;07;22
Joshua Hoffert
Level, right? Right.

00;23;07;25 - 00;23;10;29
Murray Dueck
AKA Isaac the Syrian. And the moon is right here.

00;23;11;01 - 00;23;37;06
Joshua Hoffert
There's a there's a, conversation that, Cassian John Cassian has with mysteries, solving mysteries in Cassian's. The, the conferences of Cassian. So conferences of Cassian, Cassian traveling through northern Egypt and interviewing many of the notable figures in northern in northern Egypt, the Desert Fathers. Yeah. So this is the end of the fourth century, right? He wrote this probably between about 390 and 410.

00;23;37;09 - 00;23;42;15
Joshua Hoffert
And, the conversation he has with mysterious is on the nature of gifts.

00;23;42;18 - 00;23;42;25
Joshua Hoffert
And.

00;23;42;25 - 00;23;57;07
Joshua Hoffert
The sterile. And he and this talks about the three reasons gifts are manifested. And he says the first, the first. Well, first to the first one, I'll say for last. But he says one is because there's a need in the community.

00;23;57;09 - 00;23;57;13
Joshua Hoffert
It.

00;23;57;13 - 00;24;19;00
Joshua Hoffert
Doesn't or there's, there's someone needs healing. And so God shows up to heal that person. The vessel that shows up to perform the healing isn't anything special or important. It's just that people prayed and someone was healed. So God gives a gift because he cares about the community and the person in the community. So the gift is in response to the need right?

00;24;19;02 - 00;24;41;19
Joshua Hoffert
The other one, he said, is, he accounted to, demons trying to delude and confuse, confused people in the community. So demons will feign they use a person to feign spiritual giftedness in order to confuse people. Interest and so that, you know, first need in the community. God loves the community.

00;24;41;19 - 00;24;43;08
Joshua Hoffert
So he he.

00;24;43;14 - 00;24;45;01
Joshua Hoffert
Gives a gift so that people will be healed.

00;24;45;03 - 00;24;45;27
Joshua Hoffert
To.

00;24;46;00 - 00;24;46;21
Joshua Hoffert
Demons.

00;24;46;24 - 00;24;47;18
Joshua Hoffert


00;24;47;20 - 00;25;13;24
Joshua Hoffert
Copy and try and mimic what God does to confuse people and to hurt people. Three he says owing to the lifestyle of holy people, some of them are given great gifts and it's because of their lifestyle, right? So he gives three distinct and separate reasons. Now we don't we in terms of charismatic Christianity, we don't necessarily tease out that nuance because and I know I've been guilty of this as a teacher of people in prophetic ministry.

00;25;13;24 - 00;25;19;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right. We're just we've lowered the bar so much, we just go, everybody's got a gift and everybody can get in.

00;25;19;27 - 00;25;20;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;25;20;28 - 00;25;40;01
Joshua Hoffert
And and what ends up happening is we don't actually teach about the nuances that, are there's this thought to and we've talked about this as well, is that we go, well, you know, if it's not freely given, then it's not a gift. So the gift has to be freely given. Right? And I'm going well, but like, I can bring.

00;25;40;04 - 00;25;40;26
Joshua Hoffert
Gift.

00;25;40;26 - 00;25;41;18
Joshua Hoffert
To.

00;25;41;18 - 00;25;44;01
Joshua Hoffert
A,

00;25;44;03 - 00;25;52;09
Joshua Hoffert
You know, if you're a king, I can bring a gift to you because you're a king. It's it's given based on your status. It's not given based on your merit.

00;25;52;11 - 00;25;53;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;25;53;05 - 00;25;59;16
Joshua Hoffert
And and so it doesn't make it any less of a gift because I gave it based on your king leanness.

00;25;59;18 - 00;26;00;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;26;00;02 - 00;26;06;24
Joshua Hoffert
So a gift doesn't not become a gift if it's given because of the merit of the person it's still a gift.

00;26;06;27 - 00;26;08;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And, and.

00;26;08;01 - 00;26;21;19
Joshua Hoffert
So we don't understand those nuances and we go oh it's a, it's a gift. It's like you I mean I've taught this before. Where on Sunday morning or Christmas Sunday morning, Christmas morning you show up and you get all these gifts not because you deserved it, but because you've got a good father. That's true.

00;26;21;22 - 00;26;24;18
Joshua Hoffert
But also, you know.

00;26;24;21 - 00;26;27;29
Joshua Hoffert
I give different gifts to my kids who show more responsibility.

00;26;27;29 - 00;26;29;05
Joshua Hoffert
Than other ones.

00;26;29;08 - 00;26;30;17
Murray Dueck
Haha. Very true.

00;26;30;20 - 00;26;31;27
Joshua Hoffert
I like, I'm like, oh.

00;26;31;27 - 00;26;35;19
Joshua Hoffert
Here, I'm going to give you a gun when you haven't shown responsibility.

00;26;35;19 - 00;26;41;03
Joshua Hoffert
My son, who's nine, he wants it a pocket knife. I'm watching.

00;26;41;03 - 00;26;44;26
Joshua Hoffert
Him to see if he's responsible enough for me to give him the gift that I want to give.

00;26;44;26 - 00;26;46;22
Joshua Hoffert
Him. Right. So that gift is.

00;26;46;22 - 00;26;47;24
Joshua Hoffert
Based on merit.

00;26;47;24 - 00;26;48;23
Joshua Hoffert
And my love.

00;26;48;24 - 00;26;50;09
Joshua Hoffert
That's fine. It doesn't make it.

00;26;50;09 - 00;26;51;26
Joshua Hoffert
Not a gift. Right.

00;26;51;26 - 00;27;11;22
Joshua Hoffert
But the gift is still based on the character of the person. And that's what Nestorius and Cassian are talking about. And those are the nuances that we don't necessarily talk about because we lower the bar so much just to get people over the, over the, you know, it's like it's like if everybody can jump a one inch bar, it's no longer really, developing.

00;27;11;27 - 00;27;14;01
Joshua Hoffert
Excellent.

00;27;14;04 - 00;27;14;22
Joshua Hoffert
You know.

00;27;14;24 - 00;27;25;11
Joshua Hoffert
Excellence within the context of prophetic ministry, healing ministry or anything like that. It's just watering down everything. And and because we don't care about the nuance in that sense.

00;27;25;13 - 00;27;35;16
Murray Dueck
And the reason why is everybody, at least our generation, when you're coming out of, you know, evangelicalism that doesn't believe in these things and you're exactly like.

00;27;35;18 - 00;27;36;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, just.

00;27;36;06 - 00;27;40;29
Murray Dueck
To prove that it exists and that anybody's willing to give it a shot.

00;27;41;01 - 00;27;41;15
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;27;41;22 - 00;27;45;03
Murray Dueck
Is wonderful, right? That's right. And,

00;27;45;05 - 00;27;51;03
Joshua Hoffert
So that and that's fine that that's where we were. Now let's recognize where we are and go where we need a more nuanced.

00;27;51;03 - 00;27;52;24
Murray Dueck
You can't stay five year olds forever.

00;27;52;26 - 00;28;11;01
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly. We need a more nuanced conversation about this. And that's and that's perfectly fine. And at this point now we're we're looking at a, a generation in charismatic Christianity that's obsessed with giftedness, that's obsessed with calling.

00;28;11;01 - 00;28;12;29
Joshua Hoffert
And,

00;28;13;01 - 00;28;15;14
Murray Dueck
And destiny and, and.

00;28;15;15 - 00;28;16;12
Joshua Hoffert
Destiny and.

00;28;16;12 - 00;28;34;03
Joshua Hoffert
Vision and anointing. And what we get is just in the last six months to a year, we get, you know, Chris read, you know, for those of you don't know it, morning star Rick Joyner's ministry, you guys can look it up if you want, resigning from his position and refusing to tell the truth and then it comes out.

00;28;34;03 - 00;28;37;11
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, by the way, he had inappropriate relationship with a girl three years ago.

00;28;37;11 - 00;28;41;11
Joshua Hoffert
And it's so it's so we've become so twisted.

00;28;41;11 - 00;28;44;09
Joshua Hoffert
In our thought process, in cultural Christianity.

00;28;44;11 - 00;28;49;06
Joshua Hoffert
That a a an affair that was.

00;28;49;06 - 00;28;53;21
Joshua Hoffert
Physical. You know, we don't know the extent of how physical it was, nor do I really want to know.

00;28;53;23 - 00;28;55;17
Joshua Hoffert
But it was an affair admitted.

00;28;55;17 - 00;28;58;00
Joshua Hoffert
To by both of the parties three years ago is not.

00;28;58;00 - 00;28;59;16
Joshua Hoffert
Something that disqualifies.

00;28;59;16 - 00;29;00;18
Joshua Hoffert
The person from being.

00;29;00;18 - 00;29;01;05
Joshua Hoffert
The CEO.

00;29;01;05 - 00;29;02;22
Joshua Hoffert
Of the organization. Three years later.

00;29;02;22 - 00;29;05;00
Joshua Hoffert
That's crazy. That's.

00;29;05;01 - 00;29;07;02
Murray Dueck
That's what we're going to talk about here.

00;29;07;03 - 00;29;11;25
Joshua Hoffert
That's not what you do. That's right. And then you've got.

00;29;11;27 - 00;29;19;28
Joshua Hoffert
You've got obviously you've got the Ihop stuff that's happened. Right. We've talked a little bit about that. Mike Bickle. And people are like, well.

00;29;19;28 - 00;29;21;13
Joshua Hoffert
The Ihop, I.

00;29;21;13 - 00;29;31;06
Joshua Hoffert
Think I think from what I understand, Ihop is closed its doors as a church rebuilds the forerunner church. I don't I haven't followed a whole lot in the last few months. But you've got this.

00;29;31;06 - 00;29;33;13
Joshua Hoffert
This obsession with the.

00;29;33;13 - 00;29;35;23
Joshua Hoffert
Vision of the ministry needs to keep going.

00;29;36;00 - 00;29;36;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yes, right.

00;29;36;23 - 00;29;43;23
Joshua Hoffert
And like, it doesn't matter that the vision came from a guy who was manipulating women throughout the whole course of the ministry. It's like.

00;29;43;25 - 00;29;53;02
Joshua Hoffert
What are you guys doing? What are we doing? Like, what are we doing? I don't understand this. Like what happened to Paul, to Timothy and his his.

00;29;53;02 - 00;30;02;02
Joshua Hoffert
Standards of leadership. Like, it's like it's not even there anymore. It's like we don't actually we don't care about the standards as long as they have a gift and charisma. It's good. As long as they can sell a great vision.

00;30;02;04 - 00;30;05;02
Murray Dueck
It's good to fulfill the vision right there.

00;30;05;04 - 00;30;06;09
Joshua Hoffert
Robert Morris, right.

00;30;06;16 - 00;30;09;12
Joshua Hoffert
Robert Morris in Texas, another one who yeah.

00;30;09;15 - 00;30;10;07
Joshua Hoffert
The slew.

00;30;10;07 - 00;30;13;23
Joshua Hoffert
Of resignations happening when it comes out that he was.

00;30;13;25 - 00;30;16;20
Murray Dueck
That one. The church, youth, church, huge church.

00;30;16;22 - 00;30;22;08
Joshua Hoffert
I've been to that church, actually. I know I've been in there before. Gateway church. Right. So we're just going in the last six months.

00;30;22;08 - 00;30;24;01
Joshua Hoffert
And, and I know it's nothing new.

00;30;24;01 - 00;30;27;15
Joshua Hoffert
Because again, we just read from Isaac the Syrian.

00;30;27;18 - 00;30;30;00
Joshua Hoffert
That they were experiencing back then. Yeah.

00;30;30;07 - 00;30;35;27
Joshua Hoffert
So they're experiencing it back then. So it's not anything new. It's it's humanity.

00;30;35;29 - 00;30;36;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;30;36;18 - 00;30;41;10
Joshua Hoffert
Why does it keep happening. Well, again Marina, I look look, we like to turn.

00;30;41;10 - 00;30;42;06
Joshua Hoffert
Back.

00;30;42;08 - 00;30;43;02
Joshua Hoffert
To history and.

00;30;43;02 - 00;30;44;11
Joshua Hoffert
Tradition and.

00;30;44;11 - 00;31;02;25
Joshua Hoffert
Go, is there an answer here or is there insider wisdom? You know, maybe not an answer, but insider wisdom that helps us understand. And Isaac goes, hey, like, the problem is these guys threw themselves into ministry and they never discovered the father. They were super charismatic.

00;31;02;28 - 00;31;04;03
Murray Dueck
And the and.

00;31;04;06 - 00;31;06;04
Joshua Hoffert
They had a vision. Not enough. Right?

00;31;06;04 - 00;31;18;18
Joshua Hoffert
But it was exactly. They had a gift and they had a vision that was not enough and were obsessed with it so much that now we excuse integrity and character rather than uplift integrity and character.

00;31;18;21 - 00;31;22;01
Joshua Hoffert
And and I it's crazy. Yeah. It's got my it's.

00;31;22;01 - 00;31;31;26
Joshua Hoffert
Just got my head spinning like I don't understand how you know, you know, someone like Rick Joyner goes, there's nothing to see here. Let's make this.

00;31;31;26 - 00;31;34;04
Joshua Hoffert
Guy the CEO hot like.

00;31;34;07 - 00;31;36;19
Murray Dueck
I don't. That's more, that's.

00;31;36;21 - 00;31;43;27
Joshua Hoffert
That just gets me. I was just like. But how far we've come, how far we've come.

00;31;44;00 - 00;31;51;24
Joshua Hoffert
From the expectation of what a man or a woman of God looks like that. That is now just like.

00;31;51;26 - 00;31;53;12
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, well, because gift.

00;31;53;16 - 00;32;11;06
Joshua Hoffert
Vision, anointing, all of these have trumped the interior way of Christ in the heart. And I'm just like, wow, this is crazy. This is just it's just crazy. And it comes right. You know, it comes right in the line of us talking about the inner way of prayer. Right.

00;32;11;08 - 00;32;11;14
Joshua Hoffert
Jesus.

00;32;11;17 - 00;32;27;09
Murray Dueck
And again, everybody. Why this is important because when you're everything is external, look where it goes. And and you let's just talk about this a little bit too. Like like how, how how can this happen. And and so.

00;32;27;12 - 00;32;31;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;32;31;19 - 00;32;49;22
Murray Dueck
So I'm just going to lay this out. This isn't my original little triangle for it here. I'm just going to lay it out. And I want you guys all to think about this. Because if you're listening to this podcast, you've either been here or you're here now, I would put money because if you're big into your vision currently or your gift, I'm going to guess you're not listening to us.

00;32;49;24 - 00;32;49;29
Joshua Hoffert
Now.

00;32;50;04 - 00;32;53;18
Joshua Hoffert
All you have to do is go through the prophetic manifesto and go, I don't think I belong.

00;32;53;18 - 00;32;53;27
Joshua Hoffert
Here.

00;32;54;04 - 00;33;06;07
Murray Dueck
That's right. I would say that you're here because you are like agreeing what we're talking about. So. So let's break this down a little bit everybody. So picture picture triangle as a as a little diagram.

00;33;06;08 - 00;33;07;02
Joshua Hoffert
Oh yeah I like this.

00;33;07;03 - 00;33;15;02
Murray Dueck
It's got little stages. And this is not my original diagram. You can find it online. I would redo it a little bit and put beliefs.

00;33;15;02 - 00;33;19;19
Joshua Hoffert
And so there'd be a little eye at the top of the triangle. Looks like a pyramid.

00;33;19;22 - 00;33;25;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Well, that would be somebody else's triangle. I would be Mason. Maybe. Okay.

00;33;25;13 - 00;33;27;18
Joshua Hoffert
I'm just making sure that we're not getting into.

00;33;27;23 - 00;33;44;28
Murray Dueck
Well, you could use this triangle as a if you're a mason, it would work for you, too. That's the problem is that we're kind of working on how mankind's put together. So. Yeah. Yeah. So think about that. So bottom of that triangle it's it would be community. And above that would be behavior. And above that would be skills and training.

00;33;45;01 - 00;34;06;02
Murray Dueck
And above that would be beliefs and values where we're going to character. We just talked about that. We're going to zoom in right there and then identity and and and your vision, your goal, your ministry. So whatever you believe affects how you behave way down there. Right. So and God God works on that. And and out of.

00;34;06;02 - 00;34;07;19
Joshua Hoffert
Your heart flows all kinds of things.

00;34;07;19 - 00;34;08;09
Joshua Hoffert
No. That's right.

00;34;08;11 - 00;34;08;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;34;08;24 - 00;34;27;15
Murray Dueck
That's right. Why does God have reveal the heart? Because your core values so rich young ruler. Let's just look at him. So he's got a vision in life. He's got lots of money obviously. And you know, he's fulfilling the law. Look at his behavior. And Jesus goes right as his beliefs and values. He just pokes it. Sell everything you have and follow me.

00;34;27;18 - 00;34;47;05
Murray Dueck
What's his behavior? What's his reaction? He walks away because it exposes what's going on. The Children of Israel community in the desert. They've got a vision promised land. You go right to the top of that triangle. Vision. Gold Ministry promised land, right land and milk and honey. But you've got a core value problem right there. And and identity problem.

00;34;47;07 - 00;35;05;07
Murray Dueck
They want to keep going back to Egypt. They think they're slaves, and God keeps doing things to change their behavior. Got to show up. As a warrior, people, you've got to have faith in me. You got to change your identity. Right? And they can't. So they their behavior, they can't go into the promised land. See, we are all working on that.

00;35;05;07 - 00;35;25;01
Murray Dueck
So so the problem is it's you put you can have a great value. You can have a great vision. We all have the vision. We want revival. We want people to get saved. We want the kingdom to come. We want we want those things. So those are your goals. But so that's top of that triangle. But if you teach your values.

00;35;25;03 - 00;35;25;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;35;25;24 - 00;35;47;26
Murray Dueck
It's always going to end up in a disaster. So let's say like if your value is, I want to be number one, I want to move in power. I want to have the anointing. I want to change the world for God. And let's say that's your value, right? What's your behavior you're doing, you know, way. But down here in community, you're doing more meetings.

00;35;47;26 - 00;35;57;23
Murray Dueck
You're you're starting your internet crusade. You are, attending, meetings with other big leaders. You are right. That's your your values affecting your behavior. Right?

00;35;57;25 - 00;35;58;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;35;58;12 - 00;36;26;19
Murray Dueck
What if what if your value right there is becoming like Christ? Learning how to pray, learning to hear his voice, looking at your character, getting inner healing with your behavior that right, you can have the same exact vision mission on the top right, but your values have to be different, right? Otherwise, because if you let's let's say you let's say, let's how this kind of looks right now with all these people following.

00;36;26;22 - 00;36;53;10
Murray Dueck
So if you for your core value and your vision are mixed up, my, my vision is revival. My vision is building my ministry. My vision is whatever it is. Just insert blank here right? External. Let's say that's true. And and let's say it's going real good. Let's say you're in a season of fever. So I do the super quick, there's a video you guys can watch online.

00;36;53;10 - 00;36;56;23
Murray Dueck
I think we did something that breaks this down a bit better, but I'm content to.

00;36;56;24 - 00;36;58;09
Joshua Hoffert
Fight you all. Yeah, well.

00;36;58;16 - 00;36;58;25
Murray Dueck
I'll get.

00;36;58;25 - 00;37;01;05
Joshua Hoffert
It. I'll look for it and see if I can sneak it into the comments.

00;37;01;07 - 00;37;02;14
Joshua Hoffert
Or in the description.

00;37;02;14 - 00;37;17;14
Murray Dueck
So. So everything's going real good. So, you know their seasons, right? In life. You know, John 15, those who bear fruit, I will prune clean so they'll bear even more fruit. Which brings us back to abiding prayer. Everybody right there. Okay. So the.

00;37;17;14 - 00;37;18;08
Joshua Hoffert
Context for that.

00;37;18;08 - 00;37;18;24
Joshua Hoffert
Statement.

00;37;18;28 - 00;37;43;10
Murray Dueck
So let's let's let's say everything's going good. You're bearing fruit. People love your anointing showing up at your meetings. People are coming in attending. Look at me. You know, I'm the man with the anointing, the the power of the last final hour. Oh, yeah. Right. Okay. So let's say let's say the power. God steps back a bit. See episode one, voices from the desert.

00;37;43;12 - 00;37;43;27
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;37;43;29 - 00;37;45;00
Joshua Hoffert
Mary's story.

00;37;45;01 - 00;38;07;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Let's just. Yeah. I mean, we all live out of our encounters with God, right? So, and let's say, you know, you're having trouble. You're you're going after the vision, you're going after it. That's your call. And you haven't worked on your marriage. You haven't, built deep relationships where you're being personally accountable to people. Those aren't your core values.

00;38;07;28 - 00;38;36;01
Murray Dueck
What happens when you're not getting the love and appreciation you used? What if people don't see you? You see yourself as this man is and what it says, 18 or 20 year old girls like I see who you really are, right? And they love your vision. They love what happens. You start getting closer to them because they appear to have the same vision you do and carry the same veil, and you start to make this connection there.

00;38;36;01 - 00;39;04;07
Murray Dueck
And where does that lead? Right. So so the problem is, if you if you're going to build a culture based on your vision, you're going to draw people to you that will support that vision. But if that vision is not based on on getting healing, looking in your heart, dealing with your issues, and it's just the vision that it then when people fall in love with your vision, you will fall in love with them.

00;39;04;09 - 00;39;23;01
Murray Dueck
And that's where this goes. And it happens again and again and again. We keep putting people in positions of power because they're a good CEO. They've got a gift, and they don't realize if people fall in love with your vision, they fall in love with you. And guess what happens? You join heart to heart with them and you have all this adultery stuff going on.

00;39;23;04 - 00;39;23;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, because.

00;39;23;22 - 00;39;45;19
Murray Dueck
They're not coming into leadership based on intimacy with God as their core value and identity. It's their gift is their value, their vision of their value. And you know what? It's ripping the church up. It's it's. And I'm I'm just kind of mad about it today because you're I'm trying to teach people that if you go to waste and all these guys are birds.

00;39;45;22 - 00;39;48;23
Joshua Hoffert
We're restraining his tongue right now.

00;39;48;26 - 00;39;50;03
Joshua Hoffert
I'm like, oh.

00;39;50;06 - 00;40;05;09
Murray Dueck
It's like I'm just ready to chuck the word prophecy out and just call, because that's what the Bible calls it. So I've always fought for it. I thought that was worth fighting for, but now maybe I'll just call it listening prayer or I'll call it, learning to hear God's voice and just chuck that word up because it's so tainted.

00;40;05;09 - 00;40;18;28
Murray Dueck
Now with all this stuff. It'll take another ten years to just get us back to where we were. And I'm not really going to do that. Everybody, because that's the word the Bible uses. But it's yes, I am maybe a little bit because it's just it's just it's heartbreaking.

00;40;19;01 - 00;40;19;20
Joshua Hoffert
What we'll do.

00;40;19;21 - 00;40;32;19
Joshua Hoffert
We'll do is we will in our in everything we labor to do, will labor to teach and lead people into what we see. Prophecy actually being, which is the revealing of the heart of God.

00;40;32;21 - 00;40;33;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;40;33;16 - 00;40;35;24
Murray Dueck
Okay. I want to tell you other story.

00;40;35;27 - 00;40;36;12
Joshua Hoffert
Go for it.

00;40;36;18 - 00;40;39;07
Joshua Hoffert
Okay, Murray. Story hour.

00;40;39;08 - 00;40;50;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I'm still ticked off. Okay, so we had this guy, Jim McNish come in. He's a cool guy. He work for Graham Cook. He was an industrial psychologist. And some of this is going to ring true with you and I just.

00;40;50;06 - 00;40;51;12
Joshua Hoffert
When was this.

00;40;51;14 - 00;40;53;01
Murray Dueck
Oh 2006.

00;40;53;05 - 00;40;54;04
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. Got a while.

00;40;54;05 - 00;41;03;25
Murray Dueck
Ago. And he goes, I'm going to break you into different tables. I think it was like center fielder, administrator, visionary, leader, pastor. And you've.

00;41;03;25 - 00;41;04;19
Joshua Hoffert
Can.

00;41;04;22 - 00;41;23;29
Murray Dueck
Remember by your body shape and we're like, what do you mean fatter? Then he goes, no, no, you watch and and he just there's about 70 of us. He puts us around the table. He gets about 100% right. Pretty close. We're like, how did you do that? And he goes, well, pastoral people tend to have rounded shoulders and they're a little hunched over because you're carrying everybody's problems.

00;41;24;02 - 00;41;40;07
Murray Dueck
And he goes, visionary leaders are very straight and a bit broader shoulders because they got to win. They got to overcome. And he goes center feelers. They got really furtive eyes. They gotta have their back against the wall. It check out what everything's going on right. That's where I was I was at that table and he goes now watch this.

00;41;40;09 - 00;41;53;26
Murray Dueck
I'm going to go over to the center table and I'm going to lean forward and get my face about a foot away from them. Watch what they do. So he comes over to us and he does that exactly where I go. Who you know, like, yeah. And he goes, now watch. I'm going to do the same thing to the pastor.

00;41;53;28 - 00;42;16;28
Murray Dueck
So he goes to that table and they all lean forward and hug him. Yeah. And we're like your core value actually shapes your body shape, your core value. Because how you behave is different than someone else. It has that much power. Now here here's kind of the problem. When you're working with a visionary leader and we say an apostle is a visionary leader, when we we put that there.

00;42;17;01 - 00;42;35;18
Murray Dueck
So a visionary leader in their thinking has to overcome and they've got to win. Now again, that's their weak part of their personality. Right. So, center failures were scared to death of everything. And so we see demons everywhere at first. Right. So we got to get over that. And pastors, they get to fix everybody and sometimes let people go through stuff and not rescue.

00;42;35;18 - 00;42;59;29
Murray Dueck
Right. But when everyone's got a weak so. Right. But with visionary leaders, the thing is for them, how they think is their vision given by God is intimacy. So when you're working and you guys, I'm sure some of you, you've been through this and you don't know this, this is what I want to say it when somebody with with with that personality type, when they believe their vision is God given, which it could be.

00;43;00;04 - 00;43;16;18
Murray Dueck
I'm not saying it isn't. It just might be. But what they think in their heads because they're an overcomer is if you help me with my vision, we have intimacy, me and you. So they're very friendly when they're recruiting. But once they've recruited you and you think you're now friends, they go on and recruit other people and you're like, what happened?

00;43;16;18 - 00;43;40;20
Murray Dueck
I thought we had this relationship. And you and you don't. Because in their mind, the vision is the baby, right? And the baby is intimacy with God. You help me carry the baby. You and I have intimacy, and we're friends because we do the vision together, right now. The problem is, if you criticize that vision, you criticize that baby, which is their God given intimacy from God.

00;43;40;26 - 00;43;47;23
Murray Dueck
You're criticizing their relationship to Jesus. That's how they think. So if you've ever, you know, on the unhealed right.

00;43;47;25 - 00;43;48;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;43;48;02 - 00;43;49;15
Joshua Hoffert
And unhealed right. That's right.

00;43;49;15 - 00;43;51;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;43;51;04 - 00;44;12;14
Murray Dueck
So the problem is, of course, you have a massive burnout level of associate pastors in that because they've gotta help build this thing and they think you're see, the thing is, that's your vision, your goal. It's good. There it is. But if your core value of intimacy is doing something rather than being together, it's not based on honest relationship.

00;44;12;14 - 00;44;35;20
Murray Dueck
It's not based on having a healed soul. It's not based off of shared community. Your values. You can have the same goals but have completely different values which you have. If you're in a church right now, you feel confused and weary and you don't understand why. Often it's because your values and the values of leadership aren't matching right now, here and now.

00;44;35;20 - 00;45;01;20
Murray Dueck
Here's how weird this can get once you believe that a visionary leader is an apostle, that's the apostle. He's got to be the CEO. I was part of a church where the, the visionary leader, great visionary leader, started out really good. He would change his vision every three weeks. I remember once we had 20 people up front that were all going to be local missionaries, and we laid hands on them.

00;45;01;23 - 00;45;20;23
Murray Dueck
Three weeks later, we were working on building an outreach center for the lost. Never talked to these people. And and it would happen every three months. And we're like, what's going on? Well, it turns out this guy was bipolar, right? His vision was actually mental illness. And nobody caught it because that was the sign of an apostle. Right?

00;45;20;23 - 00;45;21;25
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right.

00;45;21;27 - 00;45;41;29
Murray Dueck
So when you get to the point in our culture that you can't tell the difference between an apostle and somebody with a mental illness because they're both vision gifts, there's a real problem here. And let me say, does it need to be mental illness? It can be somebody who is stalking children and young adults as a senior leader and hiding it.

00;45;41;29 - 00;45;49;17
Murray Dueck
So nobody knows it. That's a mental illness. Everybody. Yeah. And then putting them into a leadership position because they got a gift.

00;45;49;19 - 00;45;51;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;45;51;04 - 00;45;52;23
Joshua Hoffert
That's also a mental illness.

00;45;52;26 - 00;46;11;07
Murray Dueck
Exactly. So I mean that this is like it's this is why you guys, we need the church fathers and the tradition of the church. Yeah. Because without it, we're we're basing everything on the gift or the vision or who don't understand. The church knows about this, and we're not reading these people.

00;46;11;10 - 00;46;11;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;46;11;28 - 00;46;13;21
Murray Dueck
And sorry, I'm just little ranting.

00;46;13;25 - 00;46;14;15
Joshua Hoffert
No. That's good.

00;46;14;16 - 00;46;31;09
Murray Dueck
Don't want to see anyone else get hurt here. And some of you listening are in these kinds of relationships. And you're like, I feel crazy or I'm tired. Why does it happen? I believe in the vision. I want to see this come to pass. Well, it's if you don't have the same core values, think, well, that's a triangle.

00;46;31;11 - 00;46;49;00
Murray Dueck
How they behave, starting their vision and how you behave. Wanting to live out of your values. There's going to you're going to feel internal conflict. And that should be a warning light on your dashboard saying beep, beep, beep, slow down and pay attention what's going on here. And I would say at this point, because I'm going to end it right here.

00;46;49;03 - 00;46;55;28
Murray Dueck
Read Peter Cordero, Emotionally healthy spirituality. That's a good one. That'll help you right?

00;46;56;00 - 00;46;56;17
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. That is.

00;46;56;17 - 00;47;00;17
Joshua Hoffert
It. That is. Well, I and I think just as you're talking, Marie.

00;47;00;20 - 00;47;02;01
Joshua Hoffert
There's been.

00;47;02;03 - 00;47;02;20
Murray Dueck
Sorry.

00;47;02;24 - 00;47;03;06
Joshua Hoffert
Well no.

00;47;03;06 - 00;47;36;14
Joshua Hoffert
That's fair. There's been you know, would each one of us, you and I have been in positions where, we've been disaffected, we've been disillusioned. We've been frustrated. Right. We've been let down, disappointed, all those things. Right. And every person listening has gone through those kind of experiences. And, and so, you know, it's, it, it, to use the, words of Peter Griffin from The Family Guy, it really grinds my gears.

00;47;36;16 - 00;47;38;09
Murray Dueck
But he did it with a Boston accent.

00;47;38;11 - 00;47;47;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So, I, I was thinking about how what what happens when?

00;47;47;09 - 00;47;54;02
Joshua Hoffert
Well, the various different iterations of what the aim of Christianity and salvation is.

00;47;54;04 - 00;47;54;18
Joshua Hoffert
All right.

00;47;54;24 - 00;47;56;27
Murray Dueck
Well, we're back to Theo's history, which is great. We're back.

00;47;56;27 - 00;48;02;20
Joshua Hoffert
Well, in a way, we're back on topic. But what but what you've been saying is.

00;48;02;22 - 00;48;03;03
Joshua Hoffert
When.

00;48;03;03 - 00;48;05;00
Joshua Hoffert
The aim of Christianity.

00;48;05;00 - 00;48;07;27
Joshua Hoffert
Is the,

00;48;07;29 - 00;48;20;27
Joshua Hoffert
The building of a great ministry. Right. Well, we can do. Let's just go back 100 years. The aim of Christianity being, salvation, so that you would get to heaven.

00;48;21;00 - 00;48;21;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Right.

00;48;21;29 - 00;48;33;21
Joshua Hoffert
That was that was a big talking point, right? Get people to say this prayer and so they can get into heaven. And this is this is justification by faith, right? This is the.

00;48;33;24 - 00;48;35;18
Joshua Hoffert
Witness. Yes. That's right.

00;48;35;24 - 00;48;41;15
Joshua Hoffert
This was this was the purpose of Salvaje is to get to heaven.

00;48;41;17 - 00;48;42;00
Joshua Hoffert
The aim.

00;48;42;00 - 00;48;43;29
Joshua Hoffert
Of Christianity is to save as many people as.

00;48;43;29 - 00;48;45;14
Joshua Hoffert
Possible. Right.

00;48;45;16 - 00;48;58;11
Joshua Hoffert
That's that's one layer. You go in certain circles. I think this probably tends more into in the reformed circles, the aim of perfection is or the aim of Christianity is moral perfection.

00;48;58;14 - 00;48;59;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;48;59;04 - 00;49;10;24
Joshua Hoffert
We talked about how the would in the in our bridal paradigm, which we're kind of still in that vein, but the bridal paradigm, the church is a place of healing versus the moral arbiter, to the world.

00;49;10;24 - 00;49;12;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yes. But so and.

00;49;12;26 - 00;49;18;16
Murray Dueck
You can see everybody today why that was so important. Yeah. Because, look at what's going on.

00;49;18;19 - 00;49;20;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. So sorry.

00;49;20;23 - 00;49;22;16
Joshua Hoffert
Is our is our aim.

00;49;22;18 - 00;49;24;11
Joshua Hoffert
No. That's good.

00;49;24;13 - 00;49;33;17
Joshua Hoffert
Is our aim moral perfection? Is that what Christianity is all about? Is teaching the world a better moral system? Because that's when you listen to a lot of.

00;49;33;23 - 00;49;34;05
Joshua Hoffert


00;49;34;05 - 00;49;38;29
Joshua Hoffert
Popular. Like, what was it, Richard Dawkins, the the,

00;49;39;01 - 00;49;40;00
Joshua Hoffert


00;49;40;09 - 00;49;53;20
Joshua Hoffert
You know, the avowed atheist talked about recently. He made some comments within the last year or so. He made some comments about how he'd rather be in a Christian society because he appreciates the morality of the Christian worldview over against any other worldview.

00;49;53;23 - 00;49;54;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;49;54;02 - 00;50;10;14
Joshua Hoffert
And and so you've got and so people celebrate that, right? Because they're going, yes, right. Christianity is morally perfect. And it's like, well, no, it's not like, that's not the point of Christianity. All is for moral perfection, isn't the point. But that's one of the layers that we've made. The aim of Christianity is moral perfection.

00;50;10;16 - 00;50;12;15
Joshua Hoffert
And, yeah.

00;50;12;15 - 00;50;18;26
Joshua Hoffert
And so then we, you know, in certain circles, the aim of Christianity becomes the fulfillment of the vision of the house.

00;50;18;29 - 00;50;19;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right? I don't know.

00;50;19;16 - 00;50;24;00
Joshua Hoffert
How many times you've heard that phrase before. You know, that was the vision of the house.

00;50;24;02 - 00;50;24;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;50;24;25 - 00;50;28;00
Joshua Hoffert
Well, the vision of the house should just be Jesus. It's not the.

00;50;28;03 - 00;50;29;25
Joshua Hoffert
Right. It's not the leader's vision.

00;50;29;25 - 00;50;42;21
Joshua Hoffert
It's Jesus. And everybody looking to him. And, so what is what is what is the aim of Christianity and what is the purpose of salvation? And and those two questions.

00;50;42;21 - 00;50;45;23
Joshua Hoffert
Are, some of the.

00;50;45;23 - 00;50;49;13
Joshua Hoffert
Most important questions you will answer.

00;50;49;16 - 00;50;49;22
Joshua Hoffert


00;50;49;22 - 00;50;56;07
Joshua Hoffert
Or think about. I don't know that. Again, you know, we're wrestling with these questions. I don't know that we ever have a perfect answer for them.

00;50;56;09 - 00;50;57;03
Joshua Hoffert


00;50;57;05 - 00;51;08;06
Joshua Hoffert
Is it to save people from hell? Right? If that's the aim of our Christianity and that's the purpose of salvation, because then that's like you're saying, with goals that's going to influence everything that we do.

00;51;08;08 - 00;51;09;07
Joshua Hoffert
Absolutely.

00;51;09;09 - 00;51;10;28
Joshua Hoffert
And and so.

00;51;11;01 - 00;51;11;13
Joshua Hoffert
The.

00;51;11;13 - 00;51;12;26
Joshua Hoffert
The problem with all of.

00;51;12;26 - 00;51;16;14
Joshua Hoffert
That is a lot of those.

00;51;16;14 - 00;51;29;18
Joshua Hoffert
Layers are modern inventions. They're not what when we look back in Christian history. Well, we'll look at the Desert Fathers, but we can look at the contemplative authors, we can look at the early church authors.

00;51;29;20 - 00;51;29;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;51;30;04 - 00;51;42;09
Joshua Hoffert
They're not there's you don't find people that are that are remembered in history. And their main goal was to build a great ministry or following.

00;51;42;11 - 00;51;42;24
Joshua Hoffert
Like.

00;51;42;24 - 00;51;54;27
Joshua Hoffert
Like I'm thinking about Basil the Great, right? One of the great Cappadocia fathers comes out of, comes out of school, raised in a wealthy family. His whole family is Christian. Very, very, deeply Christian family. He comes out of.

00;51;55;00 - 00;51;55;10
Joshua Hoffert


00;51;55;13 - 00;52;17;12
Joshua Hoffert
The schools of the days, trained in all the Greek classics. He comes out and, you know, this is mid third, mid fourth century. And he's an arrogant, pompous jerk. And he's 18 or 19 years old and he is gifted as all get out. Right. So he's going to make his mark on history as a philosopher and a rhetorician, trained in all the best schools.

00;52;17;14 - 00;52;23;05
Joshua Hoffert
And his sister sits him down and says, you need to go to the desert because your pride is going to destroy you.

00;52;23;08 - 00;52;24;09
Joshua Hoffert
And he listens to her.

00;52;24;09 - 00;52;31;00
Joshua Hoffert
He goes to the desert, becomes anonymous, and eventually God elevates him.

00;52;31;02 - 00;52;31;29
Joshua Hoffert
All of.

00;52;32;01 - 00;52;37;20
Joshua Hoffert
To that. Everyone knows who he is, right? Yeah. Now one of the great, the great.

00;52;37;23 - 00;52;38;14
Murray Dueck
Cappadocia.

00;52;38;14 - 00;52;38;29
Joshua Hoffert
And father.

00;52;38;29 - 00;52;41;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, well, he's one of the great, theologians of church history.

00;52;41;22 - 00;52;45;04
Joshua Hoffert
But he had to go and lose.

00;52;45;04 - 00;52;49;23
Joshua Hoffert
His drive to build something great because Jesus started his whole teaching on.

00;52;49;23 - 00;52;50;29
Joshua Hoffert
The kingdom off,

00;52;51;01 - 00;52;52;25
Joshua Hoffert
With blessed to the poor. And that.

00;52;52;25 - 00;52;55;14
Murray Dueck
That's a good thought. Everybody lose your drive.

00;52;55;19 - 00;52;56;18
Joshua Hoffert
Lose your drive.

00;52;56;24 - 00;53;01;03
Murray Dueck
In. Drive shouldn't be driving the church should be like they didn't remember.

00;53;01;05 - 00;53;02;14
Joshua Hoffert
Mona's a mona's.

00;53;02;15 - 00;53;24;28
Joshua Hoffert
They didn't go on their own will. They rather were dragged out because that was the will of God. That they would go and heal other people. And so there's a significant difference between the person who has been forged and formed in quiet before the Lord and the person who has thrown themselves into ministry because they have a great gift and a call and an anointing.

00;53;25;00 - 00;53;25;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;53;25;12 - 00;53;28;06
Joshua Hoffert
Vastly different. And we've seen time and time and time.

00;53;28;06 - 00;53;29;06
Joshua Hoffert
Again.

00;53;29;09 - 00;53;52;06
Joshua Hoffert
That people get to they're they're shipwreck, shipwrecks, some bunch of other people. And but then we see people that they you know, and to use the analogy, they safely harbor themselves over time and they become this beacon that attracts people. And it's this slow burn. It's not this radical, shining, bright star that happens all of a sudden. Right?

00;53;52;08 - 00;54;11;11
Joshua Hoffert
And that is when we talk about the bridal paradigm and the inner way. That's what we're talking about. So in my opinion, and I think Marie shares this with me, that the aim of Christianity and the and the goal of salvation is union, and it's union until likeness, which we're all we're getting back to Theodosius again, right? Yes.

00;54;11;12 - 00;54;24;28
Joshua Hoffert
It's union until likeness. And the early church fathers like the they would look at Genesis one as laying this, laying the foundation. Right. Mankind is the project. We've talked about this mankind is the project.

00;54;25;00 - 00;54;26;05
Joshua Hoffert
Made in his image.

00;54;26;12 - 00;54;45;19
Joshua Hoffert
Transformed into his likeness by grace. And they get this because for second Peter one says that, we've escaped the corruption of the world and we've been made partakers of the divine nature. Right. This whole thread is all throughout Scripture. This is something I was thinking about today. I shared with Marie earlier. Because I was reading Psalm 82 this morning.

00;54;45;22 - 00;54;46;01
Joshua Hoffert
And.

00;54;46;01 - 00;55;10;06
Joshua Hoffert
Where it says, Jesus quotes this in John ten, where he's arguing with the Pharisees, but, it says God stands among the counsel of the gods. And he looks at he looks at how they've done absolute travesty to the people on the earth. And, and he says, you know, Jesus, Jesus quotes it and says, you are gods, right?

00;55;10;06 - 00;55;25;20
Joshua Hoffert
He says, do you think it's crazy that I call myself the Son of God? While the Word of God showed up to men and God said, you are gods. And, and so he's quoting Psalm 82. Right. But it was interesting to me as I was looking at it, that when God, God stands among the counsel of the gods and criticizes them.

00;55;25;22 - 00;55;26;10
Joshua Hoffert
He he.

00;55;26;10 - 00;55;31;02
Joshua Hoffert
Actually lays out a number of characteristics of what God likeness is.

00;55;31;07 - 00;55;34;18
Joshua Hoffert
Like. And he says,

00;55;34;21 - 00;55;40;23
Joshua Hoffert
If if you are truly fulfilling your vocation, this is my language. But if you're truly fulfilling your vocation.

00;55;40;25 - 00;55;42;07
Joshua Hoffert
As a little.

00;55;42;07 - 00;55;47;01
Joshua Hoffert
G God, right? God stands among the counsel of the gods. And and by the way, there's a.

00;55;47;01 - 00;55;47;29
Joshua Hoffert
Whole.

00;55;48;02 - 00;56;01;00
Joshua Hoffert
Worldview here. But yeah, it's not he's not talking about humans. He's talking about divine beings that have been apportioned throughout the whole earth. And now there's a whole thread there that we can explore.

00;56;01;02 - 00;56;01;16
Joshua Hoffert
But.

00;56;01;16 - 00;56;03;06
Joshua Hoffert
It's part of the part of the.

00;56;03;11 - 00;56;04;20
Joshua Hoffert


00;56;04;23 - 00;56;17;25
Joshua Hoffert
You know, just look a little bit further. He says in verse six of Psalm 82, I said, you are gods, and you were all children of the Most High, but you shall die like men and fall like one of the princes. Well, how can they die like men, if like, that wouldn't be anything special to say if they're not men.

00;56;17;25 - 00;56;23;17
Joshua Hoffert
So he says, you're not men, but you're going to die like men. So he's talking to divine beings, and he says.

00;56;23;21 - 00;56;24;21
Joshua Hoffert


00;56;24;23 - 00;56;44;17
Joshua Hoffert
He says he stands among the, the, Council of the gods and judges the gods. And he says, you have shown partiality to the wicked, and you've judged unjustly. And he says, rather defend the poor and the fatherless, do justice to the afflicted in the needy, deliver the poor in the needy, and free them from the hand of the wicked.

00;56;44;17 - 00;56;53;19
Joshua Hoffert
So he defines God likeness, right? And we've been made partakers of the divine nature. This is going as back as far back as Irenaeus.

00;56;53;21 - 00;56;54;17
Joshua Hoffert


00;56;54;20 - 00;57;15;26
Joshua Hoffert
You know, we're talking disciple of Polycarp. We're talking second century. God became man. That man would become God, right? This is God. Like you're not talking about same position and same essence in nature. They're saying you become godlike, right? We've been made in his image and likeness. What does it mean to be in the image of God, in the likeness of God?

00;57;15;28 - 00;57;38;05
Joshua Hoffert
Defend the poor and the fatherless. Do justice to the afflicted and the needy, deliver the poor and the needy, and free them from the hand of the wicked, so that God describes what God likeness is like in Psalm 82. And we describe what God likeness is like by saying, great power, great gift, great vision, great authority. Those are the things we look for today.

00;57;38;07 - 00;57;41;19
Joshua Hoffert
Right? And and this is what this is in Isaiah.

00;57;41;22 - 00;57;49;02
Joshua Hoffert
The first ten chapters in Isaiah, God through Isaiah the prophet is consistently calling the nation out.

00;57;49;09 - 00;57;50;19
Joshua Hoffert
Because they've elevated.

00;57;50;19 - 00;57;52;27
Joshua Hoffert
Their leaders and made them like gods.

00;57;52;29 - 00;57;53;08
Joshua Hoffert
Wow.

00;57;53;09 - 00;58;07;01
Joshua Hoffert
Consistently calling them out. Right. And they're and as gods, they're men who have practiced much power. He calls out the prophets. He calls out the leaders. He calls out the kings. He calls out the generals. You have worshiped them like gods.

00;58;07;03 - 00;58;08;00
Joshua Hoffert
Wow.

00;58;08;02 - 00;58;25;17
Joshua Hoffert
And they're nothing like God. And here he gives you the the characteristics, right? So what does it look like when someone has been formed and forged in the secret place? When they listen to the invitation of Jesus? When you pray, enter the secret place.

00;58;25;19 - 00;58;26;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;58;26;08 - 00;58;46;27
Joshua Hoffert
And Jesus gives all these instructions that amount to character transformation because you've seen him. Hey, it looks like someone who. But I mean, I think about Matthew six and seven in light of what character transformation would ultimately look like right? Take no care. Don't be anxious about your needs. God's going to take care of you. Don't be double minded, right?

00;58;46;27 - 00;58;52;17
Joshua Hoffert
Be single. You're focused on him. Don't store up treasures in heaven. Don't be focused on acquiring wealth.

00;58;52;19 - 00;58;55;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right? When all these things take place.

00;58;55;10 - 00;59;13;04
Joshua Hoffert
You find people that defend the poor and the fatherless, do justice to the afflicted in the needy, deliver the poor and the needy and free and have a significant. Their drive is to do those things, not build a great ministry, not make a great name, not have a great church, not have a great vision, but the person right in front of them.

00;59;13;09 - 00;59;16;01
Joshua Hoffert
How do I help them to know the father?

00;59;16;03 - 00;59;16;10
Joshua Hoffert
You know.

00;59;16;10 - 00;59;43;21
Joshua Hoffert
In, in any, in any, in any particular. There's lots of different ways people do these things, but these are the things that characterize what it means to be formed in his image is you would be concerned about doing this in his creation. And and oftentimes these things become secondary or tertiary. They're not even secondary. They're like an afterthought, between being beyond building, growing, establishing.

00;59;43;23 - 00;59;49;07
Joshua Hoffert
And it's like, what about the one in front of you? Jesus was very concerned about the one.

00;59;49;10 - 00;59;52;09
Joshua Hoffert
Like, like like talk about Paul.

00;59;52;09 - 00;59;59;00
Joshua Hoffert
Talks about this with, Timothy. He talks about seek to live a quiet life. No one talks about.

00;59;59;03 - 00;59;59;14
Joshua Hoffert
How do.

00;59;59;14 - 01;00;00;07
Joshua Hoffert
You make yourself.

01;00;00;07 - 01;00;03;07
Joshua Hoffert
Smaller?

01;00;03;09 - 01;00;06;27
Joshua Hoffert
John the Baptist talked about it. I must decrease so he can increase.

01;00;06;29 - 01;00;09;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, all or part I am.

01;00;09;20 - 01;00;10;16
Murray Dueck
Weak, he is strong.

01;00;10;17 - 01;00;18;19
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly. How do you make yourself like. Like I literally heard Rick Joyner say this in his in his he addressed the situation. Rick Joyner said, we had.

01;00;18;19 - 01;00;19;08
Joshua Hoffert
An evident.

01;00;19;08 - 01;00;40;06
Joshua Hoffert
Weakness in Chris as almost verbatim where it was ministering to the people's needs. But the Bible says a weakness can become a strength. So if he's weak in that area, he can become strong. And that's my prayer for him. So he literally called his manipulation and abuse of a young woman in the prophetic school his weakness that can be transformed into his strength.

01;00;40;08 - 01;00;41;13
Joshua Hoffert
That is.

01;00;41;16 - 01;00;44;06
Joshua Hoffert
Egregious.

01;00;44;08 - 01;00;46;29
Joshua Hoffert
Egregious. Yes.

01;00;47;01 - 01;00;51;01
Joshua Hoffert
Kat, with a capital E and a capital C on capital egregious.

01;00;51;03 - 01;00;51;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

01;00;51;21 - 01;00;53;29
Joshua Hoffert
It is a horrific thing to say.

01;00;54;02 - 01;00;56;08
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. Because, look.

01;00;56;08 - 01;00;56;18
Joshua Hoffert
You're right.

01;00;56;18 - 01;00;58;01
Joshua Hoffert
Here.

01;00;58;03 - 01;01;06;12
Joshua Hoffert
To be godlike. This is offend the poor and the needy, not to defend the abuser, but to defend the poor and the needy. And it's so opposite. It's so.

01;01;06;12 - 01;01;09;03
Joshua Hoffert
Opposite of of Paul.

01;01;09;03 - 01;01;20;09
Joshua Hoffert
Making myself weak, so opposite of Jesus. Blessed are the poor is born spirit. It's so opposite of Paul. To Timothy seek to live a quiet life so opposite of John the Baptist, I must decrease. It's so.

01;01;20;09 - 01;01;23;11
Joshua Hoffert
Opposite of all of these incredible.

01;01;23;11 - 01;01;32;15
Joshua Hoffert
Men and women throughout all of church history. And we look at it today and we call it normal. And you're like, these people have no idea what the inner way is about.

01;01;32;17 - 01;01;33;20
Joshua Hoffert
It's like they have no.

01;01;33;20 - 01;01;35;13
Joshua Hoffert
Idea how to diminish themselves.

01;01;35;16 - 01;01;36;01
Joshua Hoffert
No.

01;01;36;01 - 01;01;39;08
Murray Dueck
Idea, and I should I'm just going to add one thing to add to this.

01;01;39;10 - 01;01;40;16
Joshua Hoffert
I got a little bit preachy.

01;01;40;19 - 01;01;41;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;01;41;03 - 01;01;46;02
Murray Dueck
I know, it's totally cool. I, I'm waving the flag, you know, and white, the.

01;01;46;02 - 01;01;47;26
Joshua Hoffert
White flag of surrender.

01;01;47;28 - 01;02;16;00
Murray Dueck
That's a red flag of blood today. And I, you know, it's just everybody we need to. Because. Because remember, the children of Israel, God wanted to be their king. And they go, no, we want an earthly king like our neighbors. Right. So. And just because we're picking on the apostles here a little bit or visionary leaders, but we also need to, you know, we have three fingers pointing back at us and we're point one and and you go, I know somebody who had an international ministry.

01;02;16;02 - 01;02;35;09
Murray Dueck
If I said the name, you know who it is. And back in the arts and, and he went off to Toronto for six months of, of, of inner healing and, and you know, what the, the, his, his, you know, he had a staff of like 70 people or something like that. And I think he had like a million hits on their website.

01;02;35;09 - 01;02;57;07
Murray Dueck
And that's pretty crazy stuff. Right. And and he had to after six months, you know, he's not yet pre terrible childhood. He not you know, he needs more help. But because people quit donating because he quit ministry he couldn't support his staff. So we had to come back early and not finish getting healing because people would not support him in his healed getting healed.

01;02;57;12 - 01;02;59;08
Murray Dueck
They would only support him in his ministry.

01;02;59;16 - 01;02;59;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

01;03;00;06 - 01;03;29;24
Murray Dueck
Right. Because they wanted to follow the glorious, charismatic leader. They wouldn't give him the time he needed. Yeah, and it's horrible. And we need to just take a look when we're putting men and women on pedestals and saying, well, we need these leaders in our lives. Do you need them to be Christlike, or do you need them so that you feel like you're, you know, your place in the world or you know your direction, like you, you know, because you know, the church needs to give them time to get healed.

01;03;29;27 - 01;03;48;04
Murray Dueck
And, and, and they got to go and get healed and model that the body and, had this big value. So in other words, it's not just top down here, you know, like putting vision on. It's making wanting a leader like that among like the other nations have.

01;03;48;07 - 01;03;48;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. It's a.

01;03;48;26 - 01;03;50;22
Joshua Hoffert
It's a is an entire.

01;03;50;24 - 01;03;51;27
Murray Dueck
System cultural.

01;03;51;27 - 01;03;53;05
Joshua Hoffert
Subsystem.

01;03;53;07 - 01;03;54;12
Joshua Hoffert
That is twisted.

01;03;54;12 - 01;04;10;20
Joshua Hoffert
In its values. And it's, it's like I mean, I look at it and I just go, I just don't know what to do. You know, like I look at I just go, I, I don't want to be part of that. Right? I want to continue to seek and serve the Lord. I want to help people to walk into union with him.

01;04;10;22 - 01;04;26;08
Joshua Hoffert
Teach people about the love and tenderness of the father, the inner way of Jesus. How like we're going to one of the episodes we're going to do coming up is, is when Jesus says, when you pray, enter into the secret place. Well, how do you do that? How do you enter into the secret? Because that, to me, is what leaders need to know and what leaders.

01;04;26;11 - 01;04;26;20
Joshua Hoffert
And.

01;04;26;20 - 01;04;27;12
Murray Dueck
Remember.

01;04;27;14 - 01;04;36;13
Joshua Hoffert
What anybody needs to know. Not good leaders. But how do you do that? How do you enter into the secret place? I remember when I first tried to pray. I gave up after.

01;04;36;13 - 01;04;37;19
Joshua Hoffert
30s.

01;04;37;21 - 01;04;42;20
Joshua Hoffert
Because I didn't know how to do it. It was like my my head was a cacophony of noise.

01;04;42;23 - 01;04;43;17
Joshua Hoffert
You know? How do you do?

01;04;43;17 - 01;04;52;27
Murray Dueck
I think even truth to the skill. I said that about inner prayer, that it's it sounds like there's a thousand birds in the tree above all cackling at once or something like that. Or.

01;04;52;28 - 01;04;55;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, sounds. That sounds about right. Yeah.

01;04;55;09 - 01;05;00;03
Murray Dueck
Or is Steel Fan would say that the brain is a crowded rigged market?

01;05;00;05 - 01;05;02;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, exactly. That's that's exactly.

01;05;02;09 - 01;05;20;19
Murray Dueck
Why you got to get out of your brain. That's what you got to do everybody, which we're going to talk about and we. But but remember everybody Jesus is talking John 15 about doing things, bearing fruit and then pruning, which, you know, we talked a little bit about that and then bearing more fruit. But how does that all come into our life of abiding?

01;05;20;19 - 01;05;21;21
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right.

01;05;21;23 - 01;05;28;04
Murray Dueck
That's, that's, that's the secret to all of fixing all of this, you know, is, is that.

01;05;28;07 - 01;05;28;26
Joshua Hoffert
And getting.

01;05;28;26 - 01;05;47;04
Joshua Hoffert
Back to the simplicity of abiding with him. And that's we look at people and we esteem and value those who we look at and go, I see the fruit of abiding in their life, not the fruit of production in their life. Yeah. And when I look at that person, I go.

01;05;47;06 - 01;05;49;01
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, they.

01;05;49;03 - 01;05;52;15
Joshua Hoffert
They walk in a piece that I don't. I would like that.

01;05;52;18 - 01;05;52;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;05;52;29 - 01;05;58;06
Joshua Hoffert
Not they walk in a gift that I want. So I'm going to serve them because that because we get these things.

01;05;58;08 - 01;05;58;23
Joshua Hoffert
And that's.

01;05;58;23 - 01;05;59;23
Joshua Hoffert
Like, I've heard this stuff.

01;05;59;23 - 01;06;00;23
Joshua Hoffert
Said so many.

01;06;00;23 - 01;06;03;27
Joshua Hoffert
Times, it will serve another man's vision and his anointing will come.

01;06;03;27 - 01;06;05;05
Joshua Hoffert
Upon you, right? Yeah.

01;06;05;05 - 01;06;27;08
Joshua Hoffert
Serve another man's gift. Gift. And you and your gifting will increase. When you get around these guys, your gift will come alive like it's all about gift, vision, anointing, not about the inner way in the secret place of the heart. And you're like, you know, it's you're practicing gift. But when we look at Christian history, they're going, hey, the guys who practice gift, they shipwreck themselves.

01;06;27;08 - 01;06;32;14
Joshua Hoffert
The ones that practice quiet before the father. Those. But it's not nearly as sexy, right?

01;06;32;16 - 01;06;35;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it's not because it's 20 years.

01;06;35;00 - 01;06;41;14
Joshua Hoffert
It's not dynamism, right? It's not out there. And it's not like it doesn't look impressive. And we want to be impressed.

01;06;41;16 - 01;06;54;15
Murray Dueck
And, you know, it's like they see inner prayer is like water dripping on a rock. You know, it's that water. You know, it looks like nothing's happening at first. But if that water keeps doing that over years, it finally hollows that rock right out.

01;06;54;15 - 01;06;55;10
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right.

01;06;55;10 - 01;07;13;22
Murray Dueck
So I mean, it's. Yeah, I mean, when you're looking at a long term investment here of becoming right and and see, this is why bridal intimacy is so important. I remember one of the Jesuit fathers talking about, a young man getting engaged, and he's, you know, he's just so high up and just what's going to happen in his life.

01;07;13;22 - 01;07;37;27
Murray Dueck
He's walking through the most dangerous, stinkiest, garbage filled part of town. He doesn't even realize it. Right? But he's so absolutely enthralled with his beloved and that that when that becomes your center, which is the point of inner prayer, which is bridal intimacy, being tempted by money or power or vision, or if people like you or they don't like you, it's like the stinky garbage in town.

01;07;37;27 - 01;07;39;19
Murray Dueck
It just doesn't matter anymore.

01;07;39;20 - 01;07;40;05
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;07;40;05 - 01;07;59;06
Murray Dueck
And and to get that in the right order is the is the thing. And that's right. Don't have it in the right order. Well, back to your triangle again. This is what we see. And I honestly think a lot of these things are all happening at the same time within a year because God's yelling at his church.

01;07;59;06 - 01;08;00;20
Murray Dueck
Hey, listen.

01;08;00;23 - 01;08;01;21
Joshua Hoffert
Stop it.

01;08;01;23 - 01;08;10;22
Murray Dueck
Stop it. Right. How many times do I need to expose this for you guys to go? Hey, there's got to be another way. And there is so.

01;08;10;24 - 01;08;12;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.

01;08;12;08 - 01;08;18;12
Murray Dueck
And the church lays it out. Well, Jesus lays that out in Scripture and the church walks it out. Yeah. Historically.

01;08;18;14 - 01;08;20;12
Joshua Hoffert
So in the meantime, keep.

01;08;20;12 - 01;08;21;17
Murray Dueck
Working on that.

01;08;21;19 - 01;08;34;16
Joshua Hoffert
In the meantime, Mary and I will spend our time frustrated and, and commiserating with each other. Yeah. Hoping, hoping that, you know, in a thousand years, someone will come across these podcast episodes and go.

01;08;34;19 - 01;08;36;10
Joshua Hoffert
Hey, those guys had something to say.

01;08;36;15 - 01;08;38;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that would be cool.

01;08;38;02 - 01;08;39;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

01;08;40;02 - 01;09;03;26
Murray Dueck
And again, everybody, for now, I would once again, recommend either Peter Scared skews arrows book, emotionally healthy spirituality or a great book by a guy named Charles Bello who is a vineyard overseer and and really great book. Get you started. And the lord and he they were doing all this stuff. You know, the vineyard statement do the stuff and running a food bank, doing church meetings.

01;09;03;26 - 01;09;15;03
Murray Dueck
And finally God said that said to him, Charles, if you don't let me love you, you're not going to make it, because, yeah, look at all this stuff I'm doing. I'm doing all this stuff, you know, and, you know, right.

01;09;15;06 - 01;09;15;26
Joshua Hoffert
So the book.

01;09;15;29 - 01;09;17;06
Murray Dueck
Explains all of that.

01;09;17;06 - 01;09;22;10
Joshua Hoffert
So I think my, my lighting got all messed up during the recording. The sun cream.

01;09;22;10 - 01;09;26;17
Murray Dueck
Right. So, yeah. So winter, we didn't realize it. Yeah.

01;09;26;20 - 01;09;28;06
Joshua Hoffert
I, I let's I want to.

01;09;28;08 - 01;09;31;01
Joshua Hoffert
Share one short little story that I read today.

01;09;31;07 - 01;09;31;11
Joshua Hoffert
Oh.

01;09;31;11 - 01;09;31;28
Murray Dueck
Cool.

01;09;32;01 - 01;09;34;11
Joshua Hoffert
So for and we can end on that more.

01;09;34;14 - 01;09;35;04
Joshua Hoffert
The.

01;09;35;09 - 01;09;52;10
Joshua Hoffert
I was reading in my book on Francis of Assisi today. This is just topical with what we're talking about. Talking about making yourself small and practicing the inner way. So Francis goes and visits this young man or this young man comes, I think, actually enjoys the community. It's the other way around.

01;09;52;12 - 01;09;53;11
Joshua Hoffert
And Francis.

01;09;53;11 - 01;09;59;01
Joshua Hoffert
Wakes up in the middle of the night and leaves the room and does it very quietly so as not to disturb the young.

01;09;59;01 - 01;09;59;25
Joshua Hoffert
Man.

01;09;59;27 - 01;10;06;00
Joshua Hoffert
And he ends up walking into a hill, walking out to a hill, and has this traumatic encounter with.

01;10;06;02 - 01;10;06;21
Joshua Hoffert


01;10;06;24 - 01;10;10;13
Joshua Hoffert
With the Lord. And the young man wakes up shortly after Francis.

01;10;10;13 - 01;10;11;19
Joshua Hoffert
Has, left.

01;10;11;23 - 01;10;23;09
Joshua Hoffert
And realizes he's gone and goes looking for him. Right. He wants to know what Francis is doing, and so he he sees a light off on a hill, and he goes over there and he sees Francis, and Francis is talking with.

01;10;23;11 - 01;10;23;24
Joshua Hoffert


01;10;23;24 - 01;10;26;06
Joshua Hoffert
Jesus, Mary, John the Baptist.

01;10;26;06 - 01;10;28;16
Joshua Hoffert
And who am I? And I, Paul.

01;10;28;16 - 01;10;45;16
Joshua Hoffert
Or Peter or something like that. Maybe. Maybe it was Elijah, I can't remember, but he says, definitely John. Maybe it was John the Beloved. Anyway, he sees Jesus with three other figures there, and he knows who they are. Right? And he's and he's so stunned by what happens. He actually.

01;10;45;18 - 01;10;45;25
Joshua Hoffert
You know.

01;10;46;02 - 01;10;48;16
Joshua Hoffert
This is early, early charismatic theology.

01;10;48;16 - 01;10;52;14
Joshua Hoffert
He falls as if dead, right? Pulls out.

01;10;52;17 - 01;10;53;08
Murray Dueck
There it is.

01;10;53;14 - 01;11;17;27
Joshua Hoffert
There it is. And so, Francis, when the moment has receded, as he's walking back, he sees the young man there and he walks him back to the, the place where they're staying. And when the boy comes, two young man comes to Francis. He tells Francis, you know, Francis doesn't tell them what has happened, right? And Francis tells the boy, don't tell anybody about this until after I've passed away.

01;11;17;29 - 01;11;18;07
Joshua Hoffert
Wow.

01;11;18;12 - 01;11;36;01
Joshua Hoffert
And the boy doesn't, right. He keeps it locked in his heart, and it says he loves Francis for the rest of his life. Serves Francis, and he becomes one of the most one of the notable men in the community. Right. But never shares the story. But the story becomes more about what is formed within him.

01;11;36;03 - 01;11;36;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

01;11;36;27 - 01;11;41;09
Joshua Hoffert
And then when Francis dies, he tells the brothers what he saw that night.

01;11;41;16 - 01;11;43;04
Joshua Hoffert
Wow. Right. And this is.

01;11;43;04 - 01;11;47;13
Joshua Hoffert
This is again, it's so completely the opposite of cultural Christianity today.

01;11;47;16 - 01;11;49;26
Joshua Hoffert
Is I had a vision of Jesus.

01;11;49;26 - 01;11;51;29
Joshua Hoffert
Let me go share it from every single.

01;11;52;05 - 01;11;54;09
Joshua Hoffert
Platform I possibly can.

01;11;54;12 - 01;12;02;21
Joshua Hoffert
The opposite of. Don't tell anybody about this until after I've died. And and, you know, it's like, come on, guys, let's get back there. Let's get back.

01;12;02;21 - 01;12;02;29
Joshua Hoffert
There.

01;12;03;00 - 01;12;20;20
Murray Dueck
It was interesting at Saint Francis I like author. It's short. So someone says to Saint Francis, so I guess he's working in the garden. And he says to him, what would you do if Jesus came back right now? And Saint Francis says, I'd finish hoeing this row of peas.

01;12;20;22 - 01;12;22;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Because he's already there with him.

01;12;22;18 - 01;12;26;25
Murray Dueck
That's right. Exactly. And it doesn't make any difference because he's already there with them.

01;12;26;26 - 01;12;27;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, he's.

01;12;27;10 - 01;12;31;29
Joshua Hoffert
Already doing what he would do if Jesus was right there. Because Jesus is right there.

01;12;32;07 - 01;12;33;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. That's right.

01;12;33;27 - 01;12;55;14
Joshua Hoffert
That's so good. Well, I think why don't we draw this one to a close and we've got lots more to say. And, you know, it's it's we just look at the landscape right now and go, there's we don't we want to be, I think a friend of ours, said, don't be a voice of confusion, but be a voice of clarity.

01;12;55;16 - 01;12;58;04
Joshua Hoffert
And so that's what we're trying to do.

01;12;58;06 - 01;12;58;15
Joshua Hoffert
And we'll.

01;12;58;15 - 01;12;59;27
Joshua Hoffert
See. It was a Steve one.

01;12;59;27 - 01;13;01;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I know that was Steve.

01;13;01;20 - 01;13;08;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, he's a good guy. So, anyway, we hope this was helpful for you. And, you know, send us a message, let us know.

01;13;09;01 - 01;13;10;22
Murray Dueck
Yeah, if you have.

01;13;10;24 - 01;13;11;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.

01;13;11;22 - 01;13;16;01
Murray Dueck
And maybe you or see this or you're like, why does that all work? Well, we could maybe.

01;13;16;01 - 01;13;21;17
Joshua Hoffert
You're going through some junk, you know? And, Marie does some spiritual direction and.

01;13;21;20 - 01;13;22;14
Joshua Hoffert


01;13;22;16 - 01;13;41;27
Joshua Hoffert
Informative practices. You can reach out to him. We've got some, my wife does inner healing prayer for people to help them recover. And so we've got some we've got some resources to help you if you're wrestling with some of the stuff that's happened, some of the junk that comes up, when you get involved in these situations and, and we know it is it just gets really messy.

01;13;41;27 - 01;13;48;05
Joshua Hoffert
And really, it's just people end up disillusioned, afraid, fearful, hurt.

01;13;48;08 - 01;13;49;07
Murray Dueck
And, you know what?

01;13;49;09 - 01;13;50;07
Joshua Hoffert
You know, the.

01;13;50;08 - 01;14;10;14
Murray Dueck
One statement you hear so many times because, I mean. Is, you know, you know, the one church I mentioned there, I don't think anybody out of, you know, a thousand people like there they can find like, I like a very few Christians, right? It's great. Great. Weird. Well, and the statement is, well, it doesn't work.

01;14;10;16 - 01;14;11;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;14;11;02 - 01;14;27;13
Murray Dueck
The thing is, what we talked about today, it doesn't work. Not like that. It doesn't work. The gifting works, the anointing works. It presents work. But you can't put it in that cultural package without everything blowing up. And then people go, well, it doesn't work. Well, no, it's the packaging we're talking about today that doesn't work. The presence of God.

01;14;27;14 - 01;14;36;03
Murray Dueck
Well, but it has to be based on an internal, loving, dynamic relationship. And when everybody says it doesn't work, you're seeing it, right?

01;14;36;06 - 01;14;36;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;14;36;24 - 01;14;48;24
Murray Dueck
You are. You're seeing it right. So don't throw away Christianity. You know, just throw away your cultural style and realize that. That's right. Church has got the church historically has answers for this.

01;14;48;27 - 01;14;50;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah that's right.

01;14;50;02 - 01;14;52;16
Murray Dueck
That's right. And and you know we read today.

01;14;52;16 - 01;15;06;02
Joshua Hoffert
So remember one time when, when I think you were wrestling with some stuff and, I remember this conversation, but it was like ten years ago, I think it was Steve said to, you know, Steve said to you, I think you said it to you. Well, that's just bad vineyard theology.

01;15;06;08 - 01;15;07;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, he did right.

01;15;08;02 - 01;15;09;00
Murray Dueck
And favorite quote to me.

01;15;09;00 - 01;15;13;00
Joshua Hoffert
For a while. Oh yeah.

01;15;13;00 - 01;15;13;16
Murray Dueck
We can I.

01;15;13;16 - 01;15;15;17
Joshua Hoffert
Do yeah I like yeah. Well, it's.

01;15;15;17 - 01;15;24;20
Joshua Hoffert
Like there's just things we need to throw away. You know, it's not so much theology as it is culture and practice. Right? And it's like, there's just stuff we need to forget about.

01;15;24;21 - 01;15;41;18
Murray Dueck
Well, what's the big the big word right now out there? Because that's what we're talking about. Deconstruction ism. Oh. Which is like just saying, you know what, 40 million Christians or whatever it is and walked away and, and but yeah, I mean, I deconstruct you if I had a you know, what if I'm experiencing all of this, right, right.

01;15;41;19 - 01;15;46;02
Murray Dueck
But again, again, the church has has answers. Historically, historians have the.

01;15;46;05 - 01;15;46;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;15;46;20 - 01;15;56;27
Murray Dueck
Dig for the treasure hidden in the field. That's right. And it's there. God has left a left the path. The breadcrumbs of the trail through the church history are available to all of us.

01;15;57;00 - 01;15;57;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;15;57;07 - 01;16;02;03
Murray Dueck
Just need to go. Yeah. Something's not working. Where do I find it? Well, you know.

01;16;02;03 - 01;16;02;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;16;02;26 - 01;16;04;02
Murray Dueck
It's there. Gods.

01;16;04;09 - 01;16;10;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it's it is, it is the the, the woman who's searching for the coin in the room.

01;16;11;02 - 01;16;11;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;16;12;00 - 01;16;17;02
Joshua Hoffert
The the room is your heart, the coin is the treasure. And the woman's, the Holy Spirit.

01;16;17;04 - 01;16;17;17
Joshua Hoffert
The Holy.

01;16;17;17 - 01;16;19;28
Joshua Hoffert
Spirit's really invested in finding that treasure in.

01;16;19;28 - 01;16;20;15
Joshua Hoffert
You. Amen.

01;16;20;16 - 01;16;21;00
Murray Dueck
Let it be.

01;16;21;00 - 01;16;30;15
Joshua Hoffert
And let it let that be what happens. You know, that's the inner life of prayer. The Holy Spirit discovering in you the treasure that's been lost.

01;16;30;18 - 01;16;34;20
Joshua Hoffert
And you know, that's that's what we're hoping happens. So then.

01;16;34;23 - 01;16;40;16
Joshua Hoffert
Okay, well, everybody, until next time. It's been awesome. Spend time together. We love each and every one of you.

01;16;40;18 - 01;16;42;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Thank you for hanging out with us.

01;16;42;16 - 01;16;43;05
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;16;43;07 - 01;16;47;20
Murray Dueck
If you want to read. Sorry, I apologize, but I don't drink.

01;16;47;22 - 01;16;49;26
Joshua Hoffert
So we'll see you guys all next week.

01;16;49;29 - 01;16;57;25
Murray Dueck
Okay?

01;16;57;28 - 01;16;59;23
Murray Dueck
You need.