The Inner Way: Does it Really Matter at All? Artwork

Voices from the Desert

In the early days of Christianity, men and women fled to the desert and became the wisest sages of their era. Voices from the Desert explores how the wisdom of Ancient Christianity applies to our modern world. Where do the streams of historic Christianity intersect with contemporary Christianity? And how do we come to know God deep in our heart? Join Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck for a deep dive into the mystics, union with God, patristic theology and what it all means in our modern world.

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Voices from the Desert

The Inner Way: Does it Really Matter at All?

September 19, 2024 • Joshua Hoffert and Murray Dueck

If salvation is about making it to heaven, why should we bother with formation here on earth? What do our theories of salvation and eschatology have to do with our present day practices? Murray and Josh take a dive into some patristic wisdom as they discover what it means to be "saved."

"Someone asked Abba Anthony, ‘What must one do in order to please God?‘ The old man replied, ‘Pay attention to what I tell you: whoever you may be, always have God before your eyes; whatever you do, do it according to the testimony of the holy Scriptures; in whatever place you live, do not easily leave it. Keep these three precepts and you will be saved.’"

For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/

For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

00;00;15;29 - 00;00;17;24
Joshua Hoffert
What do I get out of it is.

00;00;17;26 - 00;00;21;02
Joshua Hoffert
All my anxiety goes away. Or what do I get.

00;00;21;02 - 00;00;21;26
Joshua Hoffert
Out of this?

00;00;21;29 - 00;00;28;15
Joshua Hoffert
I say our sin starts to diminish in my life right now. I to hurt other.

00;00;28;15 - 00;00;30;14
Joshua Hoffert
People nearly as much.

00;00;30;17 - 00;00;36;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right now. This is. This is as Basil said, this is we're in a slave servant mentality.

00;00;36;26 - 00;00;40;29
Joshua Hoffert
That is right. Yeah. Absolutely right. And then the question.

00;00;40;29 - 00;00;41;26
Joshua Hoffert
Starts to change is this is.

00;00;41;26 - 00;00;43;04
Joshua Hoffert
What you were saying?

00;00;43;06 - 00;00;49;24
Joshua Hoffert
And the question isn't what do I get out of. Right. But then the question of what do I get out of this still slave servant?

00;00;49;27 - 00;00;52;08
Joshua Hoffert
The question starts to morph.

00;00;52;10 - 00;01;01;01
Joshua Hoffert
What is you getting out?

00;01;01;04 - 00;01;15;05
Joshua Hoffert
Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of voices from the desert. There's a. That was. And I think that's.

00;01;15;07 - 00;01;16;23
Joshua Hoffert
That's a sick coyote.

00;01;16;25 - 00;01;27;06
Murray Dueck
I know I was thinking of somebody falling off the cliff in the desert here in the echo, but it it didn't come out. Well, I'm always just thinking of new echoey types and just things.

00;01;27;12 - 00;01;28;08
Joshua Hoffert
I was thinking of.

00;01;28;11 - 00;01;31;13
Murray Dueck
I am working on my two back up, but it's not really desert either.

00;01;31;13 - 00;01;42;09
Joshua Hoffert
But I was thinking of the mall, the Monty Python one where there is. Oh, I there's the part I can't I they've got like this vague recollection of the Holy Grail movie.

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Joshua Hoffert
Oh yeah.

00;01;43;09 - 00;01;44;25
Joshua Hoffert
Where the guy goes.

00;01;44;27 - 00;01;51;05
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah. So that's,

00;01;51;07 - 00;01;55;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Welcome to voices from the desert.

00;01;55;09 - 00;01;56;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;01;56;03 - 00;01;57;27
Joshua Hoffert
We could do the whole thing in monotone. Right.

00;01;57;29 - 00;02;01;02
Murray Dueck
Well, spring gave some room and went straight into winter.

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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Yes.

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Murray Dueck
And had to eat robins, minstrels.

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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Right. Sorry for all those by those out there. Yes.

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Joshua Hoffert
Oh, it's the creature in the. Isn't it? The creature in the or the rabbit or something. Yeah. They're reading the guy's notes. Yes, they're reading the guy's notes.

00;02;21;05 - 00;02;21;28
Murray Dueck
Oh, yes.

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Joshua Hoffert
That's us. It just goes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I gave all. I would just say it.

00;02;30;04 - 00;02;31;04
Joshua Hoffert
What a great movie.

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Murray Dueck
Yes, or I would. God shows up because all the, I have, I have a task for you. Great idea. Oh, Lord. Was. It's a good idea.

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Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Like.

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Joshua Hoffert
That's one of my favorite clips, actually, I've shown that clip in the context of different trainings and seminars, because that's I think when you look at that, the clip where.

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Joshua Hoffert
I've got a task for you, you were to.

00;02;53;00 - 00;02;55;05
Joshua Hoffert
Go retrieve the Holy Grail.

00;02;55;08 - 00;03;05;25
Joshua Hoffert
Good idea. What are you doing? No. Yeah. We're putting our on our eyes. Yeah. Stop it. I think on a popular level, a lot of a lot of, a lot of people think.

00;03;06;02 - 00;03;07;09
Joshua Hoffert
That's how words to relate to.

00;03;07;09 - 00;03;09;26
Joshua Hoffert
God, which, yeah, you know, in a way.

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Murray Dueck
It kind of fits into our top tip. It does like. Yeah. Which is kind of funny.

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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. I'm averting my gaze. Oh, God.

00;03;17;11 - 00;03;20;05
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, you're always groveling and sniveling and.

00;03;20;07 - 00;03;24;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah, right. Stop it. Yeah, well, it's a.

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Murray Dueck
Task for you in these.

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Joshua Hoffert
Dark times. Yes. Good idea. It's a good idea.

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Joshua Hoffert
But but that is on on some level, that's how.

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Joshua Hoffert

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Joshua Hoffert
How we see, you know, like I said, on top of the level, how we see our, the way that we relate to God is.

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Joshua Hoffert
You know, we're.

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Joshua Hoffert
Dirty little sniveling worms, and he.

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Joshua Hoffert
Has.

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Joshua Hoffert
Condescended to actually open the heavens and look at us. And he's so frustrated with us all the time.

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Joshua Hoffert
That's, you know.

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Murray Dueck
And I think it does flow, you know, just, you know, we're still on topic here a little bit, so. But it's Monty.

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Joshua Hoffert
Python topic at.

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Murray Dueck
Least. Yeah. Well, so we're in a prophetic ministry too. Oh, sure. I mean, let's, let's say hearing God's voice and going to hear God's voice so that, you know, if you treat God as like, I mean, so many people do this that you treat God like a general. Give me a command. Give me a command.

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Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

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Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Right.

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Murray Dueck
And I you know, I remember praying for this one gal and she said, you know, I'm thinking of quitting my job. Can you ask Lori about that? I'm going, wow, okay. You ask, you ask too, but I'll see if I get confirmation. I'm like, I thought the Lord goes, yeah, good idea. You can do that. Okay, so I get back next week.

00;04;30;25 - 00;04;43;16
Murray Dueck
I'm not thinking to quit my job anymore. Take them to ask for a raise. What is it? Yes, Lord, about that. Okay. My lord, you know it seems. Good idea. Come back. So I'm not going to ask for a raise anymore. I'm going to get a border in my house. Okay? I go ask the Lord about that. Right?

00;04;43;16 - 00;05;02;29
Murray Dueck
And on and on. When? 5 or 6 times, say, yeah, I'm fine. What do you want to do? I'll do it with you. Right, right, right. And instead of and it's it's funny, I mean, like, you know, as, as Saint Augustine said, love God and do what you want. Ed, right. It's, you know, you know, or as Samuel said, the song, do whatever your hands find to do and God will be with you.

00;05;02;29 - 00;05;25;29
Murray Dueck
It's not that he doesn't give us specific things to do. So I'm not saying he does it, you know, as somebody who listens. But the idea that what are we listening for? Like, you know, we'll get to that quote by Maximus later. Like, which, you know, builds relationally. But if we go back to Basil, you know, we first see God is this, you know, you know, we're a slave and he's that.

00;05;26;05 - 00;05;41;07
Murray Dueck
And then we see God as a servant. He's a master. We see God as a father. And where a son or a daughter, you know, you start to hear differently or apply totally because relationship and, and and that brings us back into our topic of.

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Joshua Hoffert
It does.

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Joshua Hoffert
I want.

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Murray Dueck
To develop that.

00;05;44;17 - 00;05;45;19
Joshua Hoffert
I was on,

00;05;45;22 - 00;05;56;05
Joshua Hoffert
I was on a flight a few years ago, and I'm not a talker on planes at all. I'm like a I've got noise canceling headphones. Leave me alone. I want to take a.

00;05;56;05 - 00;05;57;11
Joshua Hoffert
Nap and.

00;05;57;11 - 00;06;13;07
Joshua Hoffert
Read a little bit and, I would rather not have a conversation, so I, I and this was in a, I was in India and I was sitting next to this guy who was obviously very nervous and very.

00;06;13;09 - 00;06;14;05
Joshua Hoffert
Nervous.

00;06;14;07 - 00;06;17;28
Joshua Hoffert
Lying, nervous. Well, he just he just looked like he had a lot of nervous energy. Right?

00;06;17;28 - 00;06;19;04
Murray Dueck
A nervous.

00;06;19;06 - 00;06;35;13
Joshua Hoffert
Nervous. His his he's shaking his legs. He's fidgeting everywhere, you know, that kind of stuff. Right. So, very professional looking, clean cut. And obviously Indian. Since we're in India, I was the odd man out being the white dude there.

00;06;35;13 - 00;06;36;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

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Joshua Hoffert
And I've got my headphones on. He keeps asking me questions, and I'm thinking.

00;06;42;14 - 00;06;42;22
Joshua Hoffert
I.

00;06;42;22 - 00;06;51;27
Joshua Hoffert
Don't want to have the conversation. Right. The first thing he says to me is I'm a nervous flier. I talked to ear off of anybody sitting next to me.

00;06;51;29 - 00;06;53;10
Joshua Hoffert
Oh.

00;06;53;12 - 00;06;54;08
Murray Dueck
Try these headphones.

00;06;54;13 - 00;06;54;27
Joshua Hoffert
I know.

00;06;54;27 - 00;06;59;20
Joshua Hoffert
So I put the headphones on, took them off because he kept asking questions. And then I had a.

00;06;59;23 - 00;07;00;19
Joshua Hoffert

00;07;00;22 - 00;07;21;25
Joshua Hoffert
The, the I think I have the letters the the 52 or the 50 letter spiritual homilies of Mercury disagree with me, right? I had that book with me. So I put it in my in the pocket. And he points this. Is that a Bible? And I said, no, it's but it is a book about some of the ancient Christian monks, writings about the spiritual life.

00;07;21;25 - 00;07;39;20
Joshua Hoffert
So then we start talking and I finally resigned to the fact that I was going to talk with this guy for the next few hours on the flight. And, he told me his life story. Oh, boy. And, he's a he was a Sikh. He's a Sikh. Was his religious background. Right. I'm pretty sure it was Sikh.

00;07;39;22 - 00;07;48;22
Joshua Hoffert
And I talked about his parents, and he'd just gotten married in an arranged marriage. And all this stuff is very foreign to to us Westerners, right?

00;07;48;22 - 00;07;50;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. For sure.

00;07;50;10 - 00;07;54;11
Joshua Hoffert
But anyway, at one point, I felt like the Lord had given me a prophetic word for him.

00;07;54;14 - 00;07;56;02
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, wow. Right.

00;07;56;04 - 00;08;05;18
Joshua Hoffert
And so I said, we've been talking about spiritual life and religion, and he had all kinds of questions and, all of that, you know, it was just it was it.

00;08;05;18 - 00;08;07;01
Murray Dueck
Was, what are you wearing a turban? Just had a.

00;08;07;01 - 00;08;08;03
Joshua Hoffert
Curtain. No, no no no no.

00;08;08;05 - 00;08;12;07
Murray Dueck
Oh, really? Because, I mean, that's like British Columbia Sikhs because if you're a Sikh.

00;08;12;14 - 00;08;15;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So maybe maybe he was Hindu. You might have been Hindu.

00;08;15;24 - 00;08;16;05
Joshua Hoffert

00;08;16;26 - 00;08;21;08
Joshua Hoffert
I can't I don't remember what he said. It's been it's been this was before Covid, you know, this was.

00;08;21;10 - 00;08;22;15
Murray Dueck
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

00;08;22;23 - 00;08;22;29
Joshua Hoffert
And or.

00;08;23;00 - 00;08;25;12
Joshua Hoffert
Something. It was 5 or 6 years ago. So I.

00;08;25;14 - 00;08;26;00
Joshua Hoffert

00;08;26;00 - 00;08;38;01
Joshua Hoffert
I don't remember. I thought he said Sikh, but, but I remember him saying at one point, you know, my mom and dad there faithfully say their prayers every day. They do all this. I say my prayers like once a year. I hope God doesn't judge me for that.

00;08;38;03 - 00;08;38;15
Joshua Hoffert
So, you know.

00;08;38;15 - 00;08;43;02
Joshua Hoffert
He must have been Sikh because he definitely talked about one God like a Sikh would be monetized.

00;08;43;04 - 00;08;44;21
Joshua Hoffert
God. So,

00;08;44;23 - 00;08;57;18
Joshua Hoffert
So he must have been Sikh. So anyway, at one point in the conversation, I finally broach the subject and I say, you know, as a Christian, God sometimes speaks to me, and I think he's spoken to me about you.

00;08;57;20 - 00;08;58;16
Joshua Hoffert
Ooh.

00;08;58;17 - 00;09;00;02
Joshua Hoffert
And and he goes.

00;09;00;04 - 00;09;07;19
Joshua Hoffert
What? He said, you hear God, what did he say about me? Does he like me? Well, wow. Right.

00;09;07;21 - 00;09;12;26
Joshua Hoffert
He's stunned that I've claimed. I mean, he's and he's rapt attention.

00;09;13;02 - 00;09;13;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Wow.

00;09;13;21 - 00;09;24;18
Joshua Hoffert
Rapt attention. So good. You know, I don't remember what I said to him. I just it's been so long, I can't remember. I remember how he was just flabbergasted that he was sitting next to someone that could hear the voice of God. Right.

00;09;24;25 - 00;09;25;08
Joshua Hoffert
Wow.

00;09;25;14 - 00;09;29;24
Joshua Hoffert
And it was the one I mean, I had. We actually I'm friends with him on Facebook. We we exchanged.

00;09;29;26 - 00;09;31;23
Joshua Hoffert
Oh wow, I, I.

00;09;31;25 - 00;09;55;14
Joshua Hoffert
If I looked through all my friends, I could probably find him. He worked for LinkedIn. Just a really, really nice guy. You know, I really, really liked having the conversation with him. Much to my chagrin, my point in sharing that story is, it's funny how the story with this guy who's a Sikh, right, has no real relationship with God, even in the context of his own, religious background.

00;09;55;14 - 00;09;58;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And his comp, the conversation I had with.

00;09;58;26 - 00;10;00;19
Joshua Hoffert
Him was.

00;10;00;19 - 00;10;16;05
Joshua Hoffert
Not that dissimilar from the conversation you may have with a traditional Christian who has. No, it doesn't really have much of a developed prayer life. Right? You hear from God like, would you pray for me that I would know how to do this and this and this and this? And you're going, why?

00;10;16;08 - 00;10;16;28
Joshua Hoffert
You know, if.

00;10;16;28 - 00;10;21;19
Joshua Hoffert
If you're a Christian, you should have the you should have the the the phone.

00;10;21;19 - 00;10;22;24
Joshua Hoffert
Is open, right.

00;10;22;26 - 00;10;28;11
Joshua Hoffert
The line is there. You got the number to dial into. Right. Why do you need to ask Murray.

00;10;28;14 - 00;10;29;16
Joshua Hoffert
For yes.

00;10;29;20 - 00;10;32;07
Joshua Hoffert
Or wisdom about the decision you make when you've got.

00;10;32;07 - 00;10;33;15
Joshua Hoffert
The phone.

00;10;33;17 - 00;10;37;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right. I can understand the Sikh guy going, you're a Christian who hears from God.

00;10;37;21 - 00;10;46;21
Murray Dueck
Well, I felt the same way. I actually, at the time, I'm like, okay, well, you know, as long as you're asking yourself and this is confirmation, I'm definitely not going to do all your work for you.

00;10;46;24 - 00;10;47;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;10;47;19 - 00;10;52;25
Murray Dueck
But, I just found, like, the Lord is like, yeah, I'm into all. That's totally good.

00;10;52;27 - 00;10;54;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Right. Exactly.

00;10;54;24 - 00;11;00;28
Murray Dueck
And I think some people are surprised the Lord would say that. Right. Okay. Wait. Give me an order. I can, I can do it. I could do the order.

00;11;00;28 - 00;11;01;19
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah.

00;11;01;20 - 00;11;10;07
Murray Dueck
And like. Right. Well it's more, but then. Yeah, it is like that sometimes. But yeah, he's a father. He's not your commander.

00;11;10;09 - 00;11;15;25
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Well and that does come really to our point today as we've said a.

00;11;15;25 - 00;11;17;26
Murray Dueck
Couple that I see some people out there rolling their.

00;11;17;26 - 00;11;18;16
Joshua Hoffert
Eyes out. Yeah.

00;11;18;18 - 00;11;20;26
Joshua Hoffert
I continue coming to our point today.

00;11;20;26 - 00;11;22;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;11;22;25 - 00;11;29;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. If you have a problem with how Marie and I do the intro, you can leave a review, a scathing review on the.

00;11;29;22 - 00;11;36;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah, go watch our, teaching material online, and you'll find that we get to the point immediately. But this is not. That is, we don't want to do that. Yeah, right.

00;11;36;28 - 00;11;37;14
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;11;37;19 - 00;11;39;09
Murray Dueck
Because we need healing.

00;11;39;09 - 00;11;41;00
Joshua Hoffert
Well, from.

00;11;41;00 - 00;11;42;09
Murray Dueck
Years of being.

00;11;42;09 - 00;11;46;16
Joshua Hoffert
Sort of being forced to to it. That's right, that's right, that's right.

00;11;46;19 - 00;11;47;11
Joshua Hoffert

00;11;47;13 - 00;11;51;07
Joshua Hoffert
So that brings us to the topic today.

00;11;51;09 - 00;11;51;28
Murray Dueck
Again.

00;11;52;01 - 00;11;52;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.

00;11;52;25 - 00;11;58;20
Joshua Hoffert
And the topic today and I maybe this will be the title of the episode is does it Really matter?

00;11;58;23 - 00;12;01;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Oh, does it really matter?

00;12;01;09 - 00;12;37;25
Joshua Hoffert
And this is, this is what we're what we're talking about in the last couple months has been, have been, stemming from conversations we had about the bridal paradigm in Scripture, looking at the application of that in the personal prayer life, looking at the Christian contemplative authors going through, you know, comparing and contrasting Bernard of Clairvaux and, Simeon the new theologian, looking at, just kind of briefly touching on Teresa of Avila and some of her, some of her stuff and Madame Guion and then looking at the Ignatian exercise is right.

00;12;37;25 - 00;12;43;16
Joshua Hoffert
We're going we've been going through this, cultivating a rhythm.

00;12;43;16 - 00;12;46;08
Joshua Hoffert
Of inner prayer.

00;12;46;11 - 00;13;05;12
Joshua Hoffert
Ways that works. Simple, methodologies to help develop that. And then last week we talked about, the, the context of inner prayer and, and how the bringing that to bear on leadership. Right.

00;13;05;15 - 00;13;05;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;13;06;00 - 00;13;12;02
Joshua Hoffert
And you know, we've talked about the teachings of Jesus on prayer, which we're still kind of diving into.

00;13;12;04 - 00;13;13;02
Joshua Hoffert

00;13;13;04 - 00;13;17;24
Joshua Hoffert
And because the teachings of Jesus on prayer are in incredible and they're just often.

00;13;17;24 - 00;13;18;19
Murray Dueck
Invaluable.

00;13;18;22 - 00;13;39;12
Joshua Hoffert
In value. Yeah. It's like it's like Jesus going when you pray, do it from a place of encounter, you know, essentially Matthew six, like, that's an incredible invitation. And, and so the question is at this point, right, we're and in a way, we're putting up to kind of satiric ology and eschatology when we ask that question. Right.

00;13;39;12 - 00;13;44;27
Joshua Hoffert
Why does it does it does it really matter? And because what's the point.

00;13;45;00 - 00;13;46;05
Joshua Hoffert
Of all.

00;13;46;05 - 00;13;59;18
Joshua Hoffert
Of it? If you think about this right. Why why quote unquote, why should we? I heard, I heard you won't we'll if we keep using the word should, we eventually should all over ourselves. Right.

00;13;59;22 - 00;14;02;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah. That's right. Never should on yourself. Yeah, I never should.

00;14;02;05 - 00;14;24;00
Joshua Hoffert
I remember I heard Bruce Friesen say that. So if you want to throw back, you can go listen to mean we interviewed Bruce about apostolic ministry. And so what's the what's the whole point of it all? Why do we even care? And does it even really matter? And, and why should we, why should we be concerned?

00;14;24;05 - 00;14;26;16
Joshua Hoffert
So, you know, in one sense, on a, on a popular.

00;14;26;16 - 00;14;27;12
Joshua Hoffert
Level.

00;14;27;14 - 00;15;02;16
Joshua Hoffert
In common, or in, contemporary culture, it's the question of does it really matter is usually answered by the reason it matters is because I have anxiety. Right. Or I have depression or something. I'm looking to alleviate the particular symptoms that life has handed to me. And so my answer for does it really matter is it a lot of times it doesn't go any deeper than my present struggle.

00;15;02;19 - 00;15;03;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;15;03;09 - 00;15;05;26
Murray Dueck
That's real sad. I think that's true for all of us.

00;15;05;29 - 00;15;06;25
Joshua Hoffert
And and that is.

00;15;06;25 - 00;15;07;23
Murray Dueck
Level one, right?

00;15;07;24 - 00;15;08;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Right.

00;15;08;04 - 00;15;26;21
Joshua Hoffert
We read things like Isaiah 26 right where it says, he, he, you keep him in peace, whose mind is stayed on you. Right? And we go, oh, that'd be wonderful to have peace. I, I don't have peace. And how do I get there. Right. And so so it's the question of does it really matter? Sometimes starts from our struggle.

00;15;26;23 - 00;15;47;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right. The struggle with anxiety, depression, the chaos of everyday life. Right. My inner life I don't I don't. And we've talked about this right. And we're talking more about it though, the impulsive and intrusive thoughts. I don't know how to deal with those. Right. The I think the those are the things the early fathers, called look easy boy.

00;15;47;06 - 00;15;47;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;15;47;25 - 00;16;08;03
Joshua Hoffert
People. People struggle. People go to counseling because of impulsive and intrusive thoughts and on how to don't know how to wrestle with that. So that's, that's kind of like the question of does it really matter is answered on a, on a, in a way on a paper thin level. Because it matters because I'm struggling. Well, so then if you stop struggling, do you stop doing.

00;16;08;06 - 00;16;09;08
Murray Dueck
That's a great.

00;16;09;09 - 00;16;11;06
Joshua Hoffert
Practices. Right.

00;16;11;09 - 00;16;29;29
Joshua Hoffert
So what's the whole what's the point when we're talking about the importance of inner prayer and we're talking about establishing rhythms, spiritual disciplines. Why is holiness important? What's what's the point of being formed in the journey? In the journey, what's the point of fasting? What's the point of humility? What's the point of it? All right.

00;16;30;02 - 00;16;30;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;16;30;06 - 00;16;45;23
Joshua Hoffert
And when the when the response, when the question or when the, the answer for what does it really matter is, is, you know, skin deep in the sense of the, the, anxiety and depression and such. Right.

00;16;45;25 - 00;16;46;21
Joshua Hoffert
Then.

00;16;46;23 - 00;17;06;16
Joshua Hoffert
The antidote is finding peace, right? So that I alleviate the particular symptoms, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. I think there's Christianity in the sense of some of the disciplines we talk about, has a fair bit to say on that. Here's the other part of it, though, is.

00;17;06;19 - 00;17;07;16
Joshua Hoffert
If.

00;17;07;18 - 00;17;15;26
Joshua Hoffert
The answer to the question doesn't really matter is, well, yes, because I'm struggling with anxiety, then humility doesn't really matter. Holiness doesn't really matter.

00;17;15;26 - 00;17;17;23
Joshua Hoffert
Good point. Right. Those things.

00;17;17;26 - 00;17;31;22
Joshua Hoffert
The fasting doesn't really matter. And and that's the characterization that, that it takes on. Right. Because it's like then the spiritual formation crowd and in the prophetic crowd as well, spend time in silence and solitude. And then we don't even really talk about the other ones.

00;17;31;25 - 00;17;32;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;17;32;29 - 00;17;36;11
Joshua Hoffert
And, you know, if you've if I remember reading.

00;17;36;15 - 00;17;37;23
Joshua Hoffert

00;17;38;00 - 00;17;41;09
Joshua Hoffert
Richard Foster's Celebration of Discipline.

00;17;41;12 - 00;17;42;14
Joshua Hoffert
I think it's called.

00;17;42;14 - 00;18;05;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, the celebration of discipline. Yeah. And and he goes through simplest city. He goes through worship, generosity, all his disciplines. Right. And and the concept when you first read about them seems very foreign. Right. Silence and solitude makes sense because that helps to directly alleviate some of the things we struggle with. But that's not the point. And so that's the why the question why does it matter?

00;18;05;07 - 00;18;27;11
Joshua Hoffert
And as we peel back the layers, does it even matter? We have to peel back the layers to that question because we bring with it a million assumptions, the assumptions of, our worldview. And the problem with a worldview, as we've said before, is that you have a worldview, you it's very difficult to actually step back and critically assess your worldview.

00;18;27;13 - 00;18;27;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;18;27;22 - 00;18;33;03
Joshua Hoffert
It's like, you know, like almost every one of us would admit that we are in that we are fallible.

00;18;33;06 - 00;18;34;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;18;34;15 - 00;18;38;09
Joshua Hoffert
Like, I'm not everything I believe and think is correct and true.

00;18;38;11 - 00;18;39;14
Joshua Hoffert
That I hope I.

00;18;39;14 - 00;18;41;27
Joshua Hoffert
Can admit that. I think even the Pope would say that. That's.

00;18;42;03 - 00;18;45;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah. I'm sure I'm sorry. Right. Sorry. Catholic people picking on you a little bit.

00;18;46;02 - 00;19;00;10
Joshua Hoffert
But the the problem is then if I say, you know, okay. Murray goes, yeah, I'm definitely fallible. I recognize that I'm not always right, that what I believe isn't always true. That. And so then I go, then I can go. Well, Murray. Okay. What do you believe that's true? That is not true.

00;19;00;10 - 00;19;02;01
Joshua Hoffert
Then,

00;19;02;03 - 00;19;03;20
Joshua Hoffert
All right. And you go.

00;19;03;22 - 00;19;07;11
Joshua Hoffert
Well, I don't I am a king, right?

00;19;07;13 - 00;19;09;22
Murray Dueck
My dogs right now land on the floor like me. Yeah.

00;19;09;24 - 00;19;12;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I don't. Yeah. There you go. The dogs will bring humility.

00;19;12;15 - 00;19;13;19
Murray Dueck
To you in the spirit realm.

00;19;13;20 - 00;19;14;24
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;19;14;26 - 00;19;32;08
Joshua Hoffert
And and so we can't it's it's my point in saying that is that it you can kind of you can critically assess yourself in an ontological way. Yes. I'm not a infallible being. But then when I press you on what's true or not you, it's very difficult for you to admit, well, this thing, I believe, isn't true because I.

00;19;32;08 - 00;19;34;24
Joshua Hoffert
It's true to me. So how do I admit that it's not?

00;19;35;00 - 00;19;37;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And then we can dug in or dig in our heels and.

00;19;37;16 - 00;19;39;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

00;19;39;02 - 00;19;41;29
Murray Dueck
Fight or flight mechanism kicks in like, you know.

00;19;42;02 - 00;19;43;20
Joshua Hoffert
And it takes, it takes.

00;19;43;22 - 00;19;45;00
Joshua Hoffert
Is oftentimes.

00;19;45;03 - 00;19;50;04
Joshua Hoffert
Well, it takes oftentimes calamitous circumstances to get me to actually reassess.

00;19;50;08 - 00;19;50;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Yes.

00;19;50;24 - 00;20;01;22
Joshua Hoffert
Talk about we've talked about the, the hierarchy or the pyramid of, vision goals, values. You know, we've talked Marie has talked through us through that a fair bit.

00;20;01;22 - 00;20;02;24
Joshua Hoffert
It's not a yeah.

00;20;02;27 - 00;20;22;07
Joshua Hoffert
It's not an easy thing to get someone to reassess those things. So so that's what we bring all of those to the question of does it really matter? So if we answer the question on a on a skin deeper paper thin level and we go, well, it alleviates the symptoms that I have. Then most of what we talk about really has no bearing.

00;20;22;09 - 00;20;34;21
Joshua Hoffert
And most of what the ancients talk about really has no bearing. Yeah. Meaning conservatives, the Desert Fathers, the mystical authors and Christian history and even really the Bible. And what Jesus has to say.

00;20;34;23 - 00;20;35;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;20;35;29 - 00;20;41;08
Joshua Hoffert
So where does soteriology and eschatology fit into the whole thing about inner prayer?

00;20;41;10 - 00;20;43;08
Joshua Hoffert
And,

00;20;43;11 - 00;20;46;04
Joshua Hoffert
And that's and that's the thing that we're, we're.

00;20;46;07 - 00;20;47;06
Joshua Hoffert

00;20;47;08 - 00;20;50;25
Joshua Hoffert
We're butting up against, especially given our last episode.

00;20;51;03 - 00;20;51;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. We could.

00;20;51;26 - 00;20;52;17
Murray Dueck
Say. Right.

00;20;52;17 - 00;20;56;04
Joshua Hoffert
Like a pastor is falling left and right.

00;20;56;04 - 00;20;59;14
Murray Dueck
And if you've got the gifting and you've got the favor.

00;20;59;16 - 00;20;59;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;20;59;26 - 00;21;07;00
Murray Dueck
But why do we see so much collapse in the charismatic church when it comes to character again.

00;21;07;03 - 00;21;26;29
Joshua Hoffert
When it's not just the charismatic church? Just to be fair. Right. Let's we can paint the Southern Baptists at some horrendous things come up in the in the last ten years, the Catholics had some horrendous things come up in the last 20 to 30 years. So, it's it's we're speaking on, on in the kind of in the charismatic vein because we find ourselves.

00;21;27;04 - 00;21;28;01
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Because we're kind of.

00;21;28;01 - 00;21;33;07
Joshua Hoffert
Coiled and yeah, we're embroiled in the charismatic one. But but to be fair, it's not just very church.

00;21;33;10 - 00;21;34;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;21;34;03 - 00;21;38;01
Joshua Hoffert
So but yeah, why do why do we constantly see.

00;21;38;03 - 00;21;38;24
Joshua Hoffert
One.

00;21;39;00 - 00;21;48;17
Joshua Hoffert
Scandal after another scandal. Actually, as a completely unrelated side note, Murray, you'll appreciate this one. I was listening to Bishop Murray Murray.

00;21;48;20 - 00;21;49;15
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah.

00;21;49;16 - 00;21;50;04
Joshua Hoffert
The other day.

00;21;50;05 - 00;21;51;19
Murray Dueck
Coptic guy from,

00;21;51;22 - 00;21;57;17
Joshua Hoffert
Australia. And they started there. Yeah. And I'll tune in every now and then. He has he was doing a series on.

00;21;57;21 - 00;21;59;21
Murray Dueck
I think he was a gangster originally, as if.

00;21;59;23 - 00;22;01;19
Joshua Hoffert
It's this. It sounds like so.

00;22;01;19 - 00;22;03;22
Joshua Hoffert
I think so he got stabbed like a you're a six.

00;22;03;22 - 00;22;05;05
Joshua Hoffert
Months. Yeah. Right.

00;22;05;07 - 00;22;12;07
Joshua Hoffert
Anyway, totally. Totally. Unrelated, I this is this is me, Josh and the the super.

00;22;12;07 - 00;22;14;13
Murray Dueck
Everybody out there to listen to him. I think he's a good guy.

00;22;14;14 - 00;22;16;14
Joshua Hoffert
He is. Yeah. This is my squirrel brain, though.

00;22;16;22 - 00;22;20;21
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. He they did, a.

00;22;20;23 - 00;22;32;13
Joshua Hoffert
It was like a Friday service, and they were going to start with a hymn and, the, the hymn, they and, you know, Mario, Mario goes, we're going to start with a hymn. And the hymn they did was a Hillsong song.

00;22;32;15 - 00;22;33;09
Murray Dueck
Was it really?

00;22;33;09 - 00;22;34;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;22;34;07 - 00;22;36;02
Joshua Hoffert
What a beautiful name. What a beautiful name.

00;22;36;02 - 00;22;37;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Oh, isn't that nice?

00;22;37;01 - 00;22;42;26
Joshua Hoffert
And it's just a kind of a solo recording with a piano track. What a beautiful name. And I was like.

00;22;42;28 - 00;22;45;00
Joshua Hoffert
I know that song of Hillsong so.

00;22;45;00 - 00;22;49;13
Murray Dueck
Well. The cops don't have as much trouble with modern worship and stuff as everybody else does.

00;22;49;21 - 00;22;52;24
Joshua Hoffert
It was awesome. I was like that. So that's cool. Yeah.

00;22;52;24 - 00;23;09;03
Murray Dueck
Very cool. You've managed to to mix and mingle some stuff. Like if you go to the it's interesting, go to the Coptic Youth Channel and you can watch this video of, father, Anthony Lazarus. Anthony worth watching.

00;23;09;05 - 00;23;10;06
Joshua Hoffert
Anthony of the desert.

00;23;10;09 - 00;23;15;12
Murray Dueck
But as the music's playing, it's doing a rock n roll guitar solo. Oh, really? Does

00;23;15;14 - 00;23;17;05
Joshua Hoffert
Looks funny. Like. Wow, I didn't know.

00;23;17;07 - 00;23;23;10
Joshua Hoffert
I've watched some of those videos. They're really good ones. Yeah. Anyway, that's totally not even sorry. Sure, maybe.

00;23;23;12 - 00;23;24;17
Murray Dueck
They can mix it.

00;23;24;20 - 00;23;24;26
Joshua Hoffert
Up.

00;23;25;02 - 00;23;28;19
Murray Dueck
I think. Oh, Lord. But these. Somebody is rocking it out there, so then we can.

00;23;28;19 - 00;23;43;22
Joshua Hoffert
So then going back to the topic at hand, right. We can peel it back a little bit from the the kind of the practice goal skin deep while pastors keep falling. And so why does it matter. Okay. Well then does it is is the answer for why does it matter.

00;23;43;25 - 00;23;44;06
Joshua Hoffert
Well, it'll.

00;23;44;06 - 00;23;44;28
Joshua Hoffert
Keep us from.

00;23;44;28 - 00;23;47;22
Joshua Hoffert
Falling. Right. And so I.

00;23;47;22 - 00;23;55;18
Murray Dueck
I'm looking at my dog chewing on my suitcase, you know, hour. I'm like, if everybody you're watching this on YouTube, I'm.

00;23;55;21 - 00;23;58;00
Joshua Hoffert
Now that you know, it's on your own.

00;23;58;03 - 00;23;58;27
Murray Dueck
Now that I know.

00;23;59;01 - 00;24;00;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;24;00;09 - 00;24;01;16
Murray Dueck
But there's nothing I can do.

00;24;01;19 - 00;24;05;19
Joshua Hoffert
I never should have told him currently. Never should have told you I was putting him up on YouTube.

00;24;05;19 - 00;24;08;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah, because I want to yell at him right now to stop.

00;24;08;17 - 00;24;18;19
Joshua Hoffert
But yes, I'd have many incriminating moments for you if I hadn't. So is that so? Is the answer then, Mario? The answer to does it really matter? Is it move.

00;24;18;19 - 00;24;21;00
Joshua Hoffert
A little quiet. It'll be,

00;24;21;03 - 00;24;37;22
Joshua Hoffert
It does. It really matters because it'll keep us from sinning. Is that why it really matters so? Because now we'd like to get on an anxiety level. So. Okay, pastors keep falling, because they're not doing these things right.

00;24;37;24 - 00;24;40;16
Murray Dueck
Okay. I'm going to answer with a story because that's what I always do.

00;24;40;22 - 00;24;41;16
Joshua Hoffert
There we go.

00;24;41;19 - 00;24;44;08
Murray Dueck
Or at least, at least,

00;24;44;10 - 00;24;47;06
Joshua Hoffert
We're just trying to think through it, right? Like we're just really important.

00;24;47;06 - 00;24;51;28
Murray Dueck
Like, why do we want to fast? Why do we want to pray? Why do we want to do contemplative prayer? Why do.

00;24;51;28 - 00;24;55;14
Joshua Hoffert
We? We've been telling everybody they should do it. So we should probably ask the question, right?

00;24;55;14 - 00;25;10;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And it's like, what do you get out of it? I mean, I you know, I remember a period of time I was just going through literal hell. My ministry is blowing up. And and it felt like God was just not leaving me alone. And I said, the father, Mike, you know, God can go pick up my friend Paul Taylor for a while.

00;25;10;28 - 00;25;26;22
Murray Dueck
I mean, when I'm dead, I'll see him face to face every day. Like I always have. Kidding. But but, like, you know, if I'm going to die and see God face to face any day, why does it matter that I work on anything now, right? Sure. Yeah. And and one answer.

00;25;26;22 - 00;25;27;29
Joshua Hoffert
You said the prayer, right?

00;25;27;29 - 00;25;28;09
Joshua Hoffert
Like.

00;25;28;09 - 00;25;28;23
Murray Dueck
That's right.

00;25;28;23 - 00;25;33;29
Joshua Hoffert
I unsaved always say I'm in. And justification is faith alone.

00;25;34;01 - 00;25;58;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So, so why do we need these practices? Why do we need to talk about the things we're talking about? And of course, if you realize now we're hooking in this to last to last week's session, you realize personal holiness is on the list. Because of, you know, people, it's character. But but I'll say this, too, and I might have shared this before, but it's worth saying it again.

00;25;58;06 - 00;26;05;19
Murray Dueck
I because of what you were talking about, you know, once the stress is relieved, we don't ask the Lord anymore. It's done. We're done. Okay. Thanks for the answer. Right?

00;26;05;20 - 00;26;07;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, I got my cheese, right.

00;26;07;16 - 00;26;09;11
Joshua Hoffert
I yeah, yeah. And I.

00;26;09;13 - 00;26;25;07
Murray Dueck
You know, if you if that's as far as it goes, you know I remember I needed an answer. So we'll go back to that. So I'm praying if you ever want to pray have a problem. You pray a lot. So so I, I need an answer. I think we're run out of money or something. So I'm. I'm in my little place in Glen Valley praying.

00;26;25;11 - 00;26;40;15
Murray Dueck
And I'm walking along and I'm like, we're trying to worship, trying to keep my eyes on Jesus. And finally I go, God, I, I what's the answer? And he goes, what do you think of those bushes over there? Hey, those are nice bushes. I'm like, what? That can't be. God, you where you start again, right? Okay. Start again.

00;26;40;17 - 00;26;58;12
Murray Dueck
Let's just worship. Get her eyes on Jesus. Let's make it about Jesus. But my mind wanders and pretty soon I'm back on the problem. Freaking out. I'm just freaking out. I go, God, what am I supposed to do? Because what do you think of those trees over there? Right? Those are nice trees. And and then I realized that I didn't have any trouble here in the Lord.

00;26;58;12 - 00;27;14;07
Murray Dueck
He just didn't want to talk about what I wanted to talk about. Right? I wanted to talk about my problem, what to do and do it the right way. He wanted to have a relationship with me. That's right. And? And I realized I was only approaching God because of my need, not because of my relationship.

00;27;14;10 - 00;27;14;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;27;14;29 - 00;27;30;06
Murray Dueck
And you can test yourself if you're doing this talk. If you can't hear the Lord, you're like, pound in heaven. Change a topic. Pray for your family, pray for your church, pray for it. And if you see the Lord, talk to you, you have no no trouble here in God. He just doesn't want to talk to you about what you want to talk about.

00;27;30;08 - 00;27;49;14
Murray Dueck
Why is that? Because then we seek him. We pursue him. We spend time with him, we write, and he loves that. But eventually, you know, we want to graduate beyond that, that our motivation, as Josh was just saying is not need based on. I'm fine. I'm going to die. People don't like me. That's mine. Right? We want to be more based.

00;27;49;14 - 00;27;56;09
Murray Dueck
And what, what's and how do you get there? You self has to not become the motivational factor.

00;27;56;13 - 00;27;57;06
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;27;57;08 - 00;28;19;21
Murray Dueck
And the factor has to be come back to, a relationship of intimacy. As, as one thing that you're pursuing him because it's about him, not because it's about you. Right? Right. And and, you know, like the reverse is that who is it that says, I'm sorry, I don't remember this verse up top med even there's no grapes on the vine.

00;28;19;24 - 00;28;46;29
Murray Dueck
You know, you know, I will still praise the Lord. I will seek him. Right. And it's. And so one thing we have to understand that that as you relate to Jesus and you do the disciplines fasting and contemplative prayer, which we've talked a lot about, you get to know him better as a person and as you get to know him better as a person, your level of relationship starts to move, let's say, from, as Basil the Great would say, from being a slave.

00;28;47;04 - 00;29;08;18
Murray Dueck
Oh, if you're a punishment, if I don't serve me, he's going to kill me to to servant. He's the master, right? It's not going to kill me. But I'm a servant to beloved, where you're you're a son and daughter and, we're the bride, right? Well, suddenly, I mean, and here's the thing. I mean, how much of the church is serving based on the first two?

00;29;08;20 - 00;29;22;24
Murray Dueck
And. And if you're not serving because because of a love relationship, that means somewhere back in here, there's probably some spiritual disciplines that are not happening. We are not meeting them on a personal basis. So it's not fueling this relational.

00;29;23;00 - 00;29;23;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right set.

00;29;23;23 - 00;29;43;08
Murray Dueck
Up in your heart. Right. So so it's important to get that right. So I mean, I remember one of the desert fathers said that, it's like a young man getting engaged to, to his fiance. He can be walking through the most stinkiest, ugliest part of town. He's not afraid for his life. He doesn't smell all the garbage.

00;29;43;15 - 00;30;01;06
Murray Dueck
All he's thinking about is he's bringing joy to his beloved. Right? Right. And and, you know, we we want to bring ourselves to that, to that place. I mean, and again, we're going to kind of start kind of a close, intimate view and start stepping back higher in here to the 30,000ft to you. How does this how does that affect eternity?

00;30;01;08 - 00;30;07;27
Murray Dueck
You know, our eternal relationship, this idea of wishing to be closer to him.

00;30;08;00 - 00;30;08;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;30;08;08 - 00;30;28;05
Murray Dueck
And why the why is the bit why do we want to do this? So on the one hand, it is, you know, as, as, back to a less, you know, how much do we scandalize the church when we move in the gifting and power of God with favor, and then we ourselves don't make it because of our own sin, right?

00;30;28;05 - 00;30;58;04
Murray Dueck
I mean, that is servant master relationship, right? I need to bring joy to my master. I need to serve him. But on a higher level, there is this whole I need to be functioning. I need a desire of, of, of of this becoming like Christ, as you know, again, you know, I think sporting Saint Isaac Syrian. I think that as our brain starts to calm down, we started it starts to take wisdom from its own soul, like God's actually in there speaking.

00;30;58;07 - 00;31;14;07
Murray Dueck
But we're so busy doing and and even serving, right, right that we can't hear it. Right. And and that this has to be established. I mean, there's one answer there, but, you know, there's more layers to this yet. So there's my first, kick at the can, so to speak.

00;31;14;10 - 00;31;17;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Well.

00;31;17;14 - 00;31;22;06
Joshua Hoffert
Okay, so I've got a thought.

00;31;22;09 - 00;31;22;17
Joshua Hoffert
That.

00;31;22;17 - 00;31;23;26
Joshua Hoffert
You said one of the things you.

00;31;23;26 - 00;31;26;00
Joshua Hoffert
Said and.

00;31;26;02 - 00;31;30;25
Joshua Hoffert
Which I agree with, just as we're pulling the layers back. Right.

00;31;30;28 - 00;31;38;00
Joshua Hoffert
The,

00;31;38;03 - 00;31;44;09
Murray Dueck
What if this is prophetic that Aiden is very sorry that, Callum is chewing the handle of my suitcase. Oh, not a new suitcase.

00;31;44;16 - 00;31;45;14
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe. What does.

00;31;45;14 - 00;31;46;00
Murray Dueck
This mean?

00;31;46;00 - 00;31;47;01
Joshua Hoffert
You need to leave.

00;31;47;07 - 00;31;50;16
Joshua Hoffert
Get out. As the flood coming.

00;31;50;18 - 00;31;53;22
Joshua Hoffert
So you said.

00;31;53;25 - 00;31;54;09
Joshua Hoffert
The.

00;31;54;11 - 00;31;58;26
Joshua Hoffert
Question you posed is, what do you get out of it? If you said something like that right.

00;31;58;28 - 00;31;59;05
Joshua Hoffert
Then I.

00;31;59;05 - 00;32;07;02
Joshua Hoffert
Had this thought just when you said that. Right. As we're talking through this. Right. Because now we're peeling the layers back, right? Like like what do I get out of it is.

00;32;07;04 - 00;32;07;11
Joshua Hoffert
For.

00;32;07;11 - 00;32;08;26
Joshua Hoffert
My anxiety goes away.

00;32;08;29 - 00;32;09;22
Joshua Hoffert
Or.

00;32;09;24 - 00;32;11;05
Joshua Hoffert
What do I get out of it?

00;32;11;07 - 00;32;13;22
Joshua Hoffert
I, I.

00;32;13;24 - 00;32;27;08
Joshua Hoffert
I sin starts to diminish in my life, right? I won't I won't hurt other people nearly as much right now. This is this is as Basil said, this is we're in slave servant mentality at that point, right?

00;32;27;09 - 00;32;28;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah, absolutely.

00;32;28;15 - 00;32;46;01
Joshua Hoffert
And and then the question starts to change. And this is what you were saying. And the question isn't what do I get out of it? Right. Because then the question I what do I get out of this still slave servant? The question starts to morph to what does he getting out of it. Exactly right. And so now I'm, I'm and I'm.

00;32;46;01 - 00;32;48;08
Murray Dueck
Motivational and belief systems and hard attitude.

00;32;48;13 - 00;32;49;07
Joshua Hoffert
Things are changing.

00;32;49;07 - 00;32;50;16
Murray Dueck
Really change to get.

00;32;50;16 - 00;32;51;04
Joshua Hoffert
There right.

00;32;51;04 - 00;33;09;09
Joshua Hoffert
And and so we're and that's peeling back right. And and going well I'm starting to see something that's, that's attracting me. But here's I think here's the thing that I'm, that I'm wrestling with right now and my thoughts is, it seems to me that because.

00;33;09;09 - 00;33;10;27
Joshua Hoffert
Of.

00;33;11;00 - 00;33;19;06
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe we're just taking a step back and looking at even the bigger picture. It seems to me that because of how we characterize.

00;33;19;08 - 00;33;20;22
Joshua Hoffert
The the.

00;33;20;22 - 00;33;45;16
Joshua Hoffert
Issue of salvation in the evangelical church, right? The the salvation by faith alone, justification by. Yeah, faith, and not works because of how we characterize it. Right. The the beginning point of the journey is salvation, right? I think you would agree with me there. And I think most people. Yeah. But that they're you need to be saved.

00;33;45;19 - 00;34;04;11
Joshua Hoffert
And so you say a prayer or introduced to the concept, it's the Roman roads. Someone prays for you. You have a sense of the presence of God when you're convicted at your core, whatever. And the language we give people is that's the moment of salvation right now. You are saved.

00;34;04;13 - 00;34;10;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And so I just I was looking at the order of these or I don't remember justification, sanctification, glorification. Right. Yeah.

00;34;10;12 - 00;34;15;04
Joshua Hoffert
The justifications for sanctification. It. Yeah. Depending on how you interpret those things.

00;34;15;08 - 00;34;16;07
Murray Dueck
Yes. Exactly.

00;34;16;07 - 00;34;41;14
Joshua Hoffert
So, so in in contemporary Christianity, salvation is something that happens at the beginning of Christianity. Right. In patristic theology, I think you could say this and I maybe we'll get maybe I'll get push back. I don't think so, though. I'm thinking voices from the desert. We're talking about the desert Fathers. I'm thinking of Anthony the Great. What must I do to be saved?

00;34;41;17 - 00;34;59;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right. The question that was was constantly asked of the Desert Fathers. Answer. What must I do to be saved? Whatever you do, practice these three things. In in anything you do, always keep God before your eyes. And whatever you do, do it according to Holy Scripture and whatever place you find yourself, do not easily leave it.

00;34;59;12 - 00;35;14;07
Joshua Hoffert
Do these three things and you will be saved. Right? That's Anthony the Great. So this concept is not done the way they talk is not that salvation is the beginning of the journey, but salvation is the end of the journey.

00;35;14;09 - 00;35;16;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And so I remember us moving.

00;35;16;10 - 00;35;18;08
Joshua Hoffert
Towards being saved.

00;35;18;10 - 00;35;18;19
Joshua Hoffert
Not.

00;35;18;19 - 00;35;19;12
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;35;19;14 - 00;35;20;16
Joshua Hoffert
Not that's been.

00;35;20;16 - 00;35;22;28
Joshua Hoffert
Saved. And now I've got to figure out a reason for doing.

00;35;22;28 - 00;35;31;07
Murray Dueck
Miracles, your salvation with fear and trembling. You're working it out everybody. Yeah. I mean and that means it's a process of of becoming.

00;35;31;09 - 00;35;31;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;35;31;27 - 00;35;54;14
Murray Dueck
And I remember I remember listening to Bishop Clifford this where, you know, the English Orthodox guy say he's sitting on a train awareness robe to be cross on. And this guy walks up to him and, and says, brother, are you saved? And Bishop Callistus where says, I'm in the process of being saved, right, right. And, and and to learn to think that way.

00;35;54;21 - 00;36;15;28
Murray Dueck
And so. Well, what's the difference? So so we're not talking I don't think here we're not talking about. Okay, I might not make it to heaven because. Well, I don't think we're talking about that, but we're definitely talking about how we're going to show up when we get there. You know, I, I, I mean, because, you know, there's that verse about the wood hay and stubble, right?

00;36;16;01 - 00;36;19;14
Murray Dueck
All that. There's a lot of stuff that's going to be burned up that doesn't come along.

00;36;19;14 - 00;36;19;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;36;20;00 - 00;36;49;07
Murray Dueck
But everybody passes through that fire. Everybody, you know, and and we have to realize that the things that that we invest in here in Christ's name, they're going to we get to take that with us. Right. There's an old saying, the only thing you get to take with you, the things you give away. Right? You're. Yeah, you know, love, time, finances and and I, I mean, so there is this preparation for heaven going on the the real world, preparation.

00;36;49;10 - 00;37;08;12
Murray Dueck
Right. And and so, so it's not just. I do it for the love of God. That is the main thing. But then before, because of the love of God, we're storing up. You know, I think we've all say this. Treasures in heaven aren't we? Right. That that, you know, we're going up a little higher now we're looking at, you know, another background motivation.

00;37;08;15 - 00;37;12;04
Murray Dueck

00;37;12;06 - 00;37;27;16
Murray Dueck
If you give a cup of water to somebody, you will not lose your reward. You know, there's there's, you know, blessed are they that overcome and that, you know, you get to sit down with me on my throne. There's they're there is this whole other level of, you know, there's three verses right there, that one about passing through the fire.

00;37;27;16 - 00;37;46;15
Murray Dueck
Only the good, the gold and silver will remain, but the wood here, and some will be burned up. Right. The, the view of of what you give away, you receive. Lord, Lord, when did we ever see you in prison or hunger or sick? When did we ever see you? When you visited the least of these.

00;37;46;17 - 00;37;46;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;37;46;26 - 00;38;12;24
Murray Dueck
You know, it's it's, you know, there is a kind of a a doing end to this, right? Right. So and that's kind of where we get stuck, like, you know, as John, you said James again, you show me your, your faith, I'll show you my faith by my works. Right. So but this outworking of doing but because you're loved, I mean, if you really love your spouse, if we go back to that analogy, do you not buy your flowers?

00;38;12;24 - 00;38;20;21
Murray Dueck
Do you not make food for sometimes? Do you not take care of her when she said, do you not? I mean, isn't your love demonstrated right by action?

00;38;20;23 - 00;38;21;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;38;21;05 - 00;38;40;16
Murray Dueck
And and so if you're taking care of the love part of it, the other stuff should naturally follow it, right? Not because you're serving. Because you're going to think he's going to kill you. You're not serving because you know you're trying to earn anything, but you are serving because you love. And that is affecting your actually, well, God loves the world.

00;38;40;16 - 00;39;08;24
Murray Dueck
I'm going to love the poor. God loves people in prison. I'll go see them. God loves you. Know that. There's this. You know I'm going to fast. I'm going to pray. I want to be like him. And and you know, we get we, you know, we start to get into this debate of right versus love. Right. And because, you know, Scripture's pretty clear where you, you know, store up your treasure in heaven, where wrath and rest and sorry must wrath rest and moth sorry, you know, do not break in.

00;39;08;24 - 00;39;09;15
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;39;09;17 - 00;39;09;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;39;10;03 - 00;39;13;05
Murray Dueck
I had that I had that a little backwards there speaking in tongues.

00;39;13;08 - 00;39;18;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Well and and you know, looking at.

00;39;18;12 - 00;39;31;13
Joshua Hoffert
I appreciate looking at the, the, the, patristic age, desert fathers and, and others. Partly because it introduces us into a totally different way of thinking.

00;39;31;15 - 00;39;32;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Right.

00;39;32;04 - 00;39;33;18
Joshua Hoffert
Then within our.

00;39;33;20 - 00;39;54;02
Murray Dueck
Salvation, we just, you know, and the reason I, I'm going to say that is that I, I again, you think about romantic relationships if we want to go back to that and, so much of our, our Western thinking is if I attend a conference and I learn head knowledge, well, that that makes it helps me know God, right?

00;39;54;02 - 00;40;17;05
Murray Dueck
Or even if I go when I have an encounter, with God, you know, I get slain in the spirit and I'm down on the ground. Well, therefore, I'm closer to God, right? But I'm not really working on my inner man by doing those things. Right? Right. The things that that come up in the heart, like if I get cut off in traffic and I'm like, or, or I'm going to have a fight with somebody or, you know, my humility, my, my character, my patience, which is hard to work on, right?

00;40;17;05 - 00;40;38;05
Murray Dueck
That we're not like, how do we how do we work on those things? Right, right. So this whole idea of working out my salvation has an aspect of blessed are the pure in heart as it's our right attitude. Not just either going to learn head knowledge or even going to have an experience which that experience, I believe should cause us to love Jesus more.

00;40;38;08 - 00;40;42;27
Murray Dueck
But that should. So back into our character again, right? It should be a natural outworking because I.

00;40;43;00 - 00;40;44;00
Joshua Hoffert
Love.

00;40;44;02 - 00;40;48;14
Murray Dueck
Which I don't necessarily think it is.

00;40;48;16 - 00;40;50;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, well.

00;40;50;11 - 00;40;54;02
Murray Dueck
And, well, I mean, it is, but I don't think that people that do that.

00;40;54;02 - 00;40;54;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;40;54;17 - 00;40;55;25
Murray Dueck
So let me just rephrase that.

00;40;56;00 - 00;40;58;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Well, and, you know.

00;40;58;23 - 00;41;02;24
Joshua Hoffert
Love is also a habit that's formed and cultivated.

00;41;02;26 - 00;41;03;10
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;41;03;10 - 00;41;12;09
Joshua Hoffert
It's yeah, it is. Anyway, going back to the question, does it really matter in the context of what we're saying.

00;41;12;11 - 00;41;13;18
Joshua Hoffert
Is if.

00;41;13;21 - 00;41;19;26
Joshua Hoffert
If our framework for salvation is.

00;41;19;29 - 00;41;21;02
Joshua Hoffert

00;41;21;05 - 00;41;34;20
Joshua Hoffert
You know, you said a prayer and you're saved, then it honestly doesn't really matter, right? The only reasons why it would matter is because I need to lessen my anxiety.

00;41;34;20 - 00;41;35;04
Joshua Hoffert
Or.

00;41;35;06 - 00;41;43;16
Joshua Hoffert
To preserve myself against sin from hurting others. And and and those are reasons, right? I'm not saying that those aren't reasons, but I but I find that.

00;41;43;17 - 00;41;44;20
Murray Dueck
It's a good place to start.

00;41;44;20 - 00;41;54;11
Joshua Hoffert
It's a good place to start. But if that's our framework and that's why we're asking the question, the question. And so the question then becomes.

00;41;54;13 - 00;41;57;04
Joshua Hoffert
You know,

00;41;57;06 - 00;42;24;06
Joshua Hoffert
How can you lose your salvation? What point is salvation happen, all these things. And I just think those are the wrong questions. You know, it's like it's like the question isn't, am I saved or can I lose my salvation? The question is, what am I doing to move towards the point of salvation, which is not the not the point isn't the the purpose of it, which is the moment that I'm with him, that is salvation, is the moment I'm with you.

00;42;24;06 - 00;42;25;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right.

00;42;25;14 - 00;42;27;19
Joshua Hoffert
And so I know in my life am I.

00;42;27;25 - 00;42;28;23
Joshua Hoffert
Moving.

00;42;28;26 - 00;42;48;14
Joshua Hoffert
Towards that? Not how am I, how in my life am I moving from slave servant father? Right, son? How am I? How am I moving towards that point where I'm with him? Right. And and that's a totally different way of thinking then.

00;42;48;14 - 00;42;50;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah. And it's well, it's a.

00;42;50;04 - 00;42;53;27
Joshua Hoffert
It's a way of thinking that to me is foreign to.

00;42;53;29 - 00;42;54;17
Joshua Hoffert
A.

00;42;54;19 - 00;42;59;10
Joshua Hoffert
A worldview that's so heavily influenced by justification, by faith alone.

00;42;59;12 - 00;43;02;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And I'm not saying that word an exact. Yeah. Ahead. Go right if.

00;43;02;20 - 00;43;26;24
Murray Dueck
You don't mind. Yeah. Because this might help because we were like, yeah I just trying to get it through like. Well I can serve the poor and I helping my church and okay. Like because you know, you can have that argument as people are listening to, it's like, well, I do those things. Sure. So I remember sitting down with father Mike and, and this is, again, you know, from a charismatic perspective.

00;43;26;27 - 00;43;41;20
Murray Dueck
And, and he brought this monk along was pretty funny. He was scared to death. Look me in the eye at first. So it took a little while to realize I wasn't a completely heretic. I guess because he had never met an evangelical before. So finally he goes, okay, okay. We laughed a little bit. We were sitting in an East Indian restaurant we had since Moses.

00;43;41;20 - 00;43;58;13
Murray Dueck
Right. Okay, we're starting to go, okay, I've never met. Tell me about tell me about you. Tell me about this. A little charismatic thing. So I'm talking. Well, we kind of do this. We kind of do that. And somewhere I mentioned church split and he goes, wait, wait, wait wait, stop. Church split. What do you mean by that?

00;43;58;15 - 00;44;19;17
Murray Dueck
They go, well, you know, sometimes it happens that, you know, you're in a church and and people start to disagree with one another about the direction of the church or what they think God saying. And the church breaks into two. He goes, what? You could do that as a Christian? Because what wonderful theology in my church. I'm always wrong, just like you.

00;44;19;18 - 00;44;41;04
Murray Dueck
Wouldn't it be amazing? I could I could believe I'm right about something against my brother and consider that righteousness. Wow. Right? Like. And so the idea is that those attitudes and beliefs slow them out of the heart are not good, right? Right. They need to be challenged. They need to be. So in their culture, that's why you're fasting.

00;44;41;04 - 00;44;52;27
Murray Dueck
That's why you're praying. That's why you go to confession, right? That's why you're instead, in our church culture, we don't go to confession because sometimes we just want to keep all that stuff hidden. You know.

00;44;52;27 - 00;44;53;11
Joshua Hoffert
I want it all.

00;44;53;11 - 00;44;54;02
Joshua Hoffert
But again.

00;44;54;10 - 00;45;13;18
Murray Dueck
We don't want anyone to know what's really going on in there, because if they find out rather than that. So I'll just do my stuff in church and I'll make it look good and I'll check my boxes, because if anybody ever find out what's really going on in there, you know, and I can have an opinion against that guy because, you know, I can hear God do.

00;45;13;18 - 00;45;53;01
Murray Dueck
So what if I'm right and they're wrong? I mean, there's no humility. There's no meekness, there's no bringing into the light. There's no because that's but see, that's transformation. That's working out your salvation into your trembling, that's becoming like Christ. That's the Beatitudes, that's Christianity, not external things where we're other checking off boxes or well, like now, I prayed the prayer right now, you know, I've, I remember, Ceylan I think said he said we should have a competition, to show who is the most humble because unlike some, we do not show off our gifts.

00;45;53;04 - 00;46;13;12
Murray Dueck
Yes, right. Like such a different way of thinking. Like they won't even talk. If somebody has massive spiritual gifts, they won't even talk about it until after the person is dead, because it might cause them to fall into pride. Right? Right. Well, we're going to put it on the newsletter like the next week. Woo. And guess right. And I think they go too far there.

00;46;13;12 - 00;46;39;09
Murray Dueck
So don't get me wrong. But but still the idea is do we how do we guard against pride. How do we guard against judging our brother? Like right, right. Is this and Satan fella that that's you know, that's the thing. Pride is putting yourself on the throne. That is the ultimate self becoming God. Right? Right. And yet it's not something that we even talk about in church anymore, right?

00;46;39;12 - 00;47;08;28
Murray Dueck
Right. It's itself is so lifted up with, you know, this is where I'm going to go in my holiday. This is what I want to spend money on. This is what I'm me, me, me. And it's to, to to take the lower seat at the table, you know, to wash your brother's feet to. And it's not don't get me wrong, it's hard things to do, but but one of the big shocking things that I've been shocked as a charismatics and most and you know, and I've been in the charismatic movement 30 years and I only figured this out like five years ago.

00;47;09;04 - 00;47;30;28
Murray Dueck
And this is really horribly embarrassing that, I mean, you know, I in my own ministry, we used to meet weekly to pray and prophesy over each other and worship together. And I and I assumed because we're prophesying over each other, we're worshiping together, we're eating together. We're all going to love each other, right? We're all going to get along.

00;47;30;28 - 00;47;52;14
Murray Dueck
And it's great. And and the Holy Spirit's here, and we're just loving Jesus. You know, my own ministries, you know, it wasn't about me, but 50% of my time suddenly from like 2017 to 20 15 to 17 was all conflict resolution between the same people right past me. Books like This person because of Jezebel spirit. And I'm like, all right, how can you do this?

00;47;52;21 - 00;48;11;14
Murray Dueck
Right? Like because the Holy Spirit, everybody will help you love Jesus, pursue Jesus. You want to be with Jesus, but he's not yet. And but he's not going to work on your issues for you, right? You have to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Right? And and that's why you need this. And he'll help you as you do it.

00;48;11;16 - 00;48;25;02
Murray Dueck
But to work on these harder things of the heart, to love our brothers, to love the poor, to they need to be worked on. They need to be done. They need to be every day.

00;48;25;06 - 00;48;25;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;48;26;00 - 00;48;51;10
Murray Dueck
And and we don't do that. And, and but there's reasons why. Because if you don't bring it into the light and why confession is important, if you don't work on it, eventually that stuff takes root. And and you can be loving Jesus and doing all kinds of stuff. But, you know, the Desert Fathers say, what is a sure sign of being full of the Holy Spirit to love your enemy, right?

00;48;51;14 - 00;49;11;24
Murray Dueck
That's that's tough stuff. And and I can't, you know, the little book is sitting here somewhere. It's with me and I've quoted it before. One of the Desert fathers says, and you might know it, we should all be like, we're sitting in a hospital room and we're waiting for the doctor. And one person has an ailment of the eyes, another of the foot, another of the arm, another of the of the stomach.

00;49;11;27 - 00;49;28;08
Murray Dueck
And we're so busy looking after our own pain and brokenness, we don't hear our or our brothers cry out, right? We don't have time to look at their issues because we're so busy looking at hours. But when we think, well, now I'm saved, I don't need to work on my issues anymore. Right, guys? Well, now I'm okay, right?

00;49;28;13 - 00;49;37;22
Murray Dueck
No, you're on the journey of salvation to get your ailments of the fall. Bitterness and anger and sloth and rejection to get them healed now.

00;49;37;27 - 00;49;38;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;49;38;28 - 00;49;42;03
Joshua Hoffert
And and because salvation is still your aim.

00;49;42;06 - 00;49;43;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yes. It's that's that.

00;49;43;12 - 00;49;44;12
Murray Dueck
Thing. Salvation.

00;49;44;16 - 00;49;52;28
Joshua Hoffert
It's not the thing that's happened. It's it's I'm going to read this quote that, I read to Mary beforehand just to and, and I think it'll drive point drive home the point that we're trying to.

00;49;52;28 - 00;49;53;15
Joshua Hoffert
Make.

00;49;53;17 - 00;49;59;01
Joshua Hoffert
Or just help kind of further the conversation. Yeah. And this is William Law. He's, He was oh.

00;49;59;02 - 00;49;59;16
Murray Dueck
Very, very.

00;49;59;16 - 00;50;00;12
Joshua Hoffert
Good.

00;50;00;14 - 00;50;13;06
Joshua Hoffert
A priest in the Church of England in the 18th century, I think, he he wrote this in the book The Power of the spirit. And he was he's kind of wrestling with the idea of justification by faith.

00;50;13;09 - 00;50;13;20
Joshua Hoffert
Over.

00;50;13;20 - 00;50;37;05
Joshua Hoffert
Against justification by works and the, the issue with that idea, by the way, the issue I take with that idea, by the way, is the same one William Law lays out. And the first issue I take with it is it's an argument that, that Luther was having with the Catholic Church. Nobody's really arguing today for a justification by works.

00;50;37;07 - 00;50;37;18
Murray Dueck
That even the.

00;50;37;18 - 00;50;40;23
Joshua Hoffert
Catholics, even the Catholics. Yeah. The Catholics aren't even arguing that anymore.

00;50;40;23 - 00;50;42;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. They're like, no, we lost.

00;50;42;09 - 00;50;51;10
Joshua Hoffert
And the the argument that he was having was the right argument to have with the Catholic Church because they were going, if you pay us this money, you can make it into the other side.

00;50;51;12 - 00;50;51;19
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;50;51;20 - 00;50;53;22
Murray Dueck
Give us an indulgent hey, man.

00;50;53;24 - 00;51;00;23
Joshua Hoffert
And so we had a purgatory. Exactly. So he's going no, the Bible says that you're justified by faith, but this has become something.

00;51;00;23 - 00;51;01;17
Joshua Hoffert
So.

00;51;01;23 - 00;51;28;17
Joshua Hoffert
Far from what Luther intended it to be, that today it's license for anything, right? It is. It is, as we're saying. Well, I'm saved. And so that's my framework. And now I've divorced the reality of everyday life as a Christian from the concept of salvation, because the concept of salvation is I said a prayer and I'm saved versus I'm moving towards my point of salvation always in everything that I do.

00;51;28;19 - 00;51;43;14
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Do these things and you will be saved. And Peter says that actually at the outcome of your salvation is the end of your salvation. You will find yours or at the the end of your life, you'll find the salvation of your souls. So this is what this is what William Law says, that I think clarifies the point.

00;51;43;14 - 00;52;10;23
Joshua Hoffert
He said, this would be more, more than clear to all Christians were it not for the blind believe ism, which imagines faith to consist of a mere idea rightly affirmed with the lips, but knows nothing of a real faith that possesses within the heart. So men imagine that to believe in Jesus Christ is something that can be done apart from obeying him, because they do not know him as the Lord who reigns and lives within as well.

00;52;10;23 - 00;52;28;10
Joshua Hoffert
They imagine that a command is only to be believed, but not obeyed or that a tree is not known by its fruit. I will show you my faith by my works, which is what is in James, said the apostle. And if this is the only way faith can be shown, then any faith which is not thus one which with its works has no faith at all.

00;52;28;10 - 00;52;56;06
Joshua Hoffert
I'm going to go on that. He says this a few pages earlier. How trifling, therefore, is that learning, which sets up imagined differences between faith and its works, between a justification by faith and justification by works? Is there any meaningful distinction between Christ as a Redeemer and his redeeming works? Can we have one without the other? Then faith in its works, which are nothing else but Christ in us, must be as strictly one must be strictly as one, as Christ is one.

00;52;56;09 - 00;53;12;19
Joshua Hoffert
They can no more be two things, and our Savior and our salvation are two different things in us. And is this not the uniqueness of Christianity that Christ does not offer to men a way of life, nor a creed to be attempted in one's own strength? But he said, I'm the way, I'm the truth. I'm the life. No man can come to the father, but by me.

00;53;12;25 - 00;53;35;27
Joshua Hoffert
Our faith is in a person who lives and works in us. And thus this faith cannot be separate from from its works, because the one who lives in us neither slumbers nor sleeps. So to make, to imagine a distinction between faith and works is to make Christianity absurd. It is to make Christianity absurd. It wasn't absurd, for we're not saying it was absurd for Luther to have the argument with the Catholic Church.

00;53;35;27 - 00;53;55;01
Joshua Hoffert
It's absurd to imagine the distinction today. Yes, Christianity is a work. It's a work that happens within you. The Holy Spirit is working within you always. And to think that you have a Christianity that happens on a while, I'm saved because I said a.

00;53;55;01 - 00;53;56;16
Joshua Hoffert
Prayer.

00;53;56;19 - 00;54;07;22
Joshua Hoffert
Versus I'm saved because the Holy Spirit is working within me and I'm being saved, and I will be saved. Like those are vastly different things. And one of them, Paul's, one of them is based on.

00;54;07;25 - 00;54;09;09
Joshua Hoffert
A.

00;54;09;12 - 00;54;30;20
Joshua Hoffert
There are two very different, soteriology, you know, theories of salvation. And when we look at the early church fathers and we look at the Desert Fathers, we see a, a version of salvation that's much more in line with I am being saved over and against one that says, I have been saved. And and.

00;54;30;23 - 00;54;31;16
Joshua Hoffert
Anthony.

00;54;31;18 - 00;54;42;29
Joshua Hoffert
Anthony didn't. Anthony didn't go into the desert to to alleviate his anxiety. He went into the desert to obtain salvation of his soul.

00;54;43;01 - 00;54;44;01
Murray Dueck
There is a good way to.

00;54;44;07 - 00;55;02;23
Joshua Hoffert
That's why he went right. And and we go while I'm doing the disciplines because I have anxiety and it helps me deal with anxiety verses. I'm actually discovering a rhythm of my life that is saving my soul and presenting it to God, who I've got a vision of, who I've seen, who I'm becoming, who I'm.

00;55;02;25 - 00;55;04;06
Joshua Hoffert
I'm,

00;55;04;08 - 00;55;09;11
Joshua Hoffert
I'm becoming one with. I'm already one with. But I'm realizing that oneness with him.

00;55;09;13 - 00;55;09;26
Joshua Hoffert
And.

00;55;09;26 - 00;55;33;15
Joshua Hoffert
And everything's changing because of that. And now I'm Anthony it I'm obtaining my soul because he's obtaining my soul within me. Right. And and it's not the alleviation of symptoms, but it is. But if that's if the framework is, you know, I'm while I'm saved. And so now I need to figure out how to live life until I die and do it in a way that is, as comfortable as possible.

00;55;33;18 - 00;55;34;10
Joshua Hoffert

00;55;34;13 - 00;55;36;22
Joshua Hoffert
You know, you may find some usefulness of.

00;55;36;22 - 00;55;38;09
Joshua Hoffert
The.

00;55;38;11 - 00;55;42;24
Joshua Hoffert
Quote unquote spiritual disciplines, but so will a non-Christian.

00;55;42;26 - 00;55;43;11
Joshua Hoffert
And.

00;55;43;11 - 00;55;50;12
Joshua Hoffert
It won't produce the thing that Christianity is all about, which is the image bearers of God here.

00;55;50;15 - 00;55;51;12
Joshua Hoffert

00;55;51;21 - 00;55;55;15
Joshua Hoffert
Redeeming creation, one person at a time.

00;55;55;18 - 00;55;57;23
Joshua Hoffert
Amen.

00;55;57;26 - 00;56;09;17
Murray Dueck
So, everyone, maybe it would help to think of it again. I don't want to screw up some of the things we said, hear us confess our sins to one another. And what you will be, what.

00;56;09;17 - 00;56;10;18
Joshua Hoffert
You say you will be healed.

00;56;10;18 - 00;56;34;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah. That healing. You could say that our soul church is a hospital. Back to that everybody. Our soul has been really broken and damaged by the fall, you know. And with that comes all this stuff. And and what salvation is, is the healing of the soul. So now but we're not just talking on like I'm a little stressed today.

00;56;34;07 - 00;57;03;00
Murray Dueck
Oh, I'm having some anxiety, you know. Okay, well let's go back to the real roots of that. Yeah. Dig right down to the bottom of of, you know, you could do it. Inner healing model your childhood. Your right, you know, patterns of of dysfunction where, you know, so when you go to confession, you know, you don't like, you know, I see this pattern in my life every time, I, my boss, talk to me this way.

00;57;03;00 - 00;57;25;25
Murray Dueck
I have this reaction every time. And you start to see patterns in you that are really broken. Fear, anxiety fight. Fear. Freeze. You know these things that the Lord wants to heal them. He wants to heal the personality and bring it back into you know, blessed are the pure in heart, for they show, right? See, God that there's this this deeper work of becoming.

00;57;25;28 - 00;57;48;19
Murray Dueck
You know, we with unveiled faces, we beheld his glory. And we were like that glory, you know, all these nice verses to say. But the thing is, we're not looking at, the deeper things, even on a daily basis, where we're, you know, forming habits. I mean, I would say that most of us, I mean, how many of you out there ever fasted?

00;57;48;21 - 00;58;05;26
Murray Dueck
And I'm going to say, you guys are thinking about that. Let's throw that out there. Why did you fast did you fast to get something breakthrough personal change for your church for? Or did you fast because you wanted to humble your soul and know God?

00;58;05;28 - 00;58;07;14
Joshua Hoffert
That's big difference.

00;58;07;17 - 00;58;08;11
Murray Dueck
Big difference.

00;58;08;11 - 00;58;09;23
Joshua Hoffert
Same discipline.

00;58;09;25 - 00;58;19;14
Murray Dueck
Same discipline. That's right. Big difference, isn't it? And most people in the evangelical charismatic word, we're fasting for a cause, either personal or whatever. We're not.

00;58;19;17 - 00;58;21;10
Joshua Hoffert
What do I get out of it? Right. What do I get?

00;58;21;10 - 00;58;33;27
Murray Dueck
Right? Yeah. And and right there you begin to see there's a real different form of Christianity waiting to be explored, which the disciplines of personal change are the focus.

00;58;33;29 - 00;58;34;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;58;34;05 - 00;58;53;21
Murray Dueck
Forget we were unveiled for it and but that changed then does cause you to love the poor. It's not like well, now you're now I'm just navel gazing. If that's my. No your, your your plan is to become so you don't end up like some of the ministries we've been talking about because you're serving based on a wrong right.

00;58;53;23 - 00;59;07;27
Murray Dueck
You of of of of the human soul that if these things are not in place as a witness was talking about, eventually, without a greater love inside of us and knowing this, and then also knowing our junk.

00;59;08;00 - 00;59;08;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;59;09;01 - 00;59;15;16
Murray Dueck
Leaders fall into sin because they're they're either working on their theology or they're working on their vision.

00;59;15;18 - 00;59;16;02
Joshua Hoffert
Sure.

00;59;16;02 - 00;59;27;01
Murray Dueck
Yeah. But without that interchange based in a loving relationship down the road, you get a little bit off track, right? That track, it goes the wrong way that that these things need to be in place.

00;59;27;03 - 00;59;28;15
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;59;28;17 - 00;59;32;03
Murray Dueck
I and therefore our leaders shall survive. Right.

00;59;32;03 - 00;59;40;17
Joshua Hoffert
And the more the more you. And this is something that I think early when I was younger, still young, but when I was younger.

00;59;40;20 - 00;59;41;08
Joshua Hoffert

00;59;41;10 - 00;59;42;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You're a punk.

00;59;42;10 - 00;59;45;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I'm a punk. I, I thought the.

00;59;45;25 - 00;59;51;02
Joshua Hoffert
More I grew, the more together I would be.

00;59;51;04 - 00;59;54;05
Murray Dueck
Oh, I still think that happier.

00;59;54;08 - 00;59;55;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Okay. I'll admit, I still do think.

00;59;55;25 - 00;59;56;26
Joshua Hoffert
That that's true. Yeah.

00;59;56;26 - 00;59;58;03
Murray Dueck
It's not automatic Western.

00;59;58;07 - 01;00;08;10
Joshua Hoffert
It is, it is. It's like, oh, I'm more mature. And so I'm more, you know, relaxed, more put together all that stuff. Right. And and there is a, there is a, you know, the the more I grow.

01;00;08;10 - 01;00;11;22
Joshua Hoffert
I am more I come, I'm more.

01;00;11;25 - 01;00;37;16
Joshua Hoffert
I come to grips with who I am. But the reason I've come to grips with who I am is because I'm more aware of my frailty, not because I'm more aware of my strength. I'm more aware of my frailty. And and then I need I know the constant need for I am being saved, right? God is obtaining my soul because I'm more aware of my frailty the more I'm aware as as Marie so eloquently said, I'm more aware of my junk.

01;00;37;19 - 01;00;38;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right. Yeah.

01;00;38;28 - 01;00;39;17
Joshua Hoffert
Not junk in the.

01;00;39;17 - 01;00;42;01
Joshua Hoffert
Trunk junk part.

01;00;42;04 - 01;01;03;28
Joshua Hoffert
And I'm my focus then is decluttering because my goal is crossing the finish line. Yeah. Finish line and being with the father, not the alleviation of certain symptoms where I'm trying to wrestle with, well, why does it all matter anyway? Because I've already said the prayer and I'm saved. Wrong question, wrong starting point.

01;01;04;00 - 01;01;04;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Exactly.

01;01;04;22 - 01;01;23;29
Joshua Hoffert
And and the debate that the debate isn't. Are you saved when you say the prayer? And is faith simply the confession with the lips? Because it does say confess to the lips and believe in the heart. Well, a belief in the heart seems like something that would radically transform the actions of the life, which I think is what James is saying.

01;01;24;02 - 01;01;30;15
Joshua Hoffert
So it's it it this is a more complicated issue than you think. And we're trying to introduce you to.

01;01;30;18 - 01;01;31;14
Joshua Hoffert
A, a.

01;01;31;17 - 01;01;35;01
Joshua Hoffert
Different way of approaching it as well and thinking through.

01;01;35;01 - 01;01;36;05
Joshua Hoffert
It.

01;01;36;08 - 01;01;52;06
Murray Dueck
And, you know, maybe in the end, just scripturally speaking. Okay, where do you find that? I mean, go read. I mean, I'm sorry, I don't have the verses in front of me. Joshua. No, but but you know, go read Paul. You know, because we're kind of quoting Paul here a little bit. Go read Paul where he says, I consider all things lost that I may gain Christ.

01;01;52;06 - 01;01;57;03
Murray Dueck
Right? Yeah. We talked about quick overview. Yeah. Not that I've already, you know, that I may know him.

01;01;57;10 - 01;01;57;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;01;57;29 - 01;02;02;18
Murray Dueck
And then you go to fellowship of his sufferings, you know, the.

01;02;02;20 - 01;02;03;15
Joshua Hoffert
Something of his power.

01;02;03;15 - 01;02;05;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Ephesians I think Ephesians, isn't it?

01;02;05;17 - 01;02;07;09
Murray Dueck
You know, I think it's Philippians 3 or 4, right?

01;02;07;13 - 01;02;09;08
Joshua Hoffert
Oh yeah. Yeah. You're right. It is. Philippians.

01;02;09;08 - 01;02;10;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.

01;02;10;08 - 01;02;27;08
Murray Dueck
And not that I've already attained it, but I press on to the higher calling. Right. And again, I thought the higher calling I was thought, that's your vision. That's what you should be doing. Right. But if he doesn't mention that, what he mentions knowing Christ in one way or another, 4 or 5 times there. Right. That's a higher calling.

01;02;27;15 - 01;02;47;07
Murray Dueck
Not that not that I've attained it. And so you have to keep that in consideration when Paul gets his thorn in the flesh. Right. You know, I consider all things loss. And, and he says, God, I ask you to take this away from me. And God says, no. And the Lord says to my strength is perfected in you, in weakness.

01;02;47;10 - 01;03;02;24
Murray Dueck
And Paul's closing comment, there is something like this, you know, and and because of my great pride, this thorn in the flesh was given to me, so that even though I help others finish the race, that I may not be disqualified.

01;03;02;28 - 01;03;03;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

01;03;03;29 - 01;03;15;05
Murray Dueck
So, I mean, if you look at this, guys turn in the world upside down. I mean, he is, you know, besides Jesus, he's he's the next guy in the road, and God has to slow him down.

01;03;15;07 - 01;03;15;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Why?

01;03;15;29 - 01;03;27;09
Murray Dueck
For the sake of his own salvation? Because what's in his heart needed to come to the surface for him to look at it. And he needed a discipline of weakness.

01;03;27;11 - 01;03;28;17
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;03;28;20 - 01;03;54;17
Murray Dueck
And because his heart right there was sick and it needed healing, God wasn't punishing him. He wasn't judging him. He was trying to help him work out of salvation because there was some brokenness inside of him, a sickness that needed healing, and that was pride. And therefore he needed a spiritual discipline of some form of weakness, right? For him to face down what he found inside himself.

01;03;54;19 - 01;03;56;11
Murray Dueck
That's right. That he may know Christ.

01;03;56;13 - 01;03;56;29
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;03;57;04 - 01;04;02;29
Murray Dueck
Right. So so again we go, oh, he's judging him. No, no, that's not what that's about. It's healing his soul.

01;04;03;01 - 01;04;03;20
Joshua Hoffert
Us. Right.

01;04;03;23 - 01;04;24;29
Murray Dueck
That's what it's about. Yeah. And and you know, that's what these disciplines yourself right there, there are ways that we can fall in the rock and be broken instead of having the rock falling off. Right, right. Just about it. Right. So, I mean, if you let's say you don't work on your anger, you know, you're a little bit angry, but it's like everybody cowers from you, so nobody confronts you, right?

01;04;25;00 - 01;04;31;27
Murray Dueck
And and it grows and grows and grows inside of you until it's your go to. Sooner or later you're going to come across a bigger dog.

01;04;32;00 - 01;04;32;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.

01;04;33;01 - 01;04;44;22
Murray Dueck
Right. And what if you worked on it early on when it was a tiny little seed? Yeah, right. Learning to just be humble and bite your tongue. You the right. That's that's.

01;04;44;22 - 01;04;52;23
Joshua Hoffert
Right. I'm just thinking of an analogy. We'll end with this myrrh. Or something. Well, then somewhere around this.

01;04;52;23 - 01;04;54;04
Murray Dueck
And so we're going to end here.

01;04;54;07 - 01;05;18;02
Joshua Hoffert
I, when I was, I think I was 16 and I got into playing volleyball for a season and, I still enjoy it, but I don't play very often. I was walking home from a friend's house. We'd been playing volleyball, and I was bouncing the volleyball on the pavement, and it hit a rock and went and rolled underneath the Jeep Cherokee that we had a Cherokee little boy, an 87 Cherokee.

01;05;18;02 - 01;05;26;15
Joshua Hoffert
The very nice was an awesome one. I reached underneath to grab it, and my arm caught the tailpipe.

01;05;26;17 - 01;05;27;07
Murray Dueck
Oh no.

01;05;27;07 - 01;05;37;17
Joshua Hoffert
Sliced it right open, about three inch long, about, probably about a almost an inch deep, right down to the fat. Oh, slice that right. Open.

01;05;37;20 - 01;05;40;23
Murray Dueck
And and all the visual people out there are saying thanks.

01;05;40;23 - 01;05;41;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;05;41;02 - 01;05;42;04
Joshua Hoffert
Thank you. That's right.

01;05;42;04 - 01;05;43;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;05;43;06 - 01;05;56;09
Joshua Hoffert
And my mom took me to the emergency room. Right. They waited for a while and sewed it up, you know, stitched it up, all that stuff. Right. So my point is, is this right.

01;05;56;11 - 01;06;00;22
Joshua Hoffert
Imagine if.

01;06;00;24 - 01;06;15;11
Joshua Hoffert
I covered that thing with a towel. So it stopped bleeding and just went like this and said, covered it with a towel. I'm healed.

01;06;15;13 - 01;06;16;05
Murray Dueck
Good enough.

01;06;16;07 - 01;06;19;13
Joshua Hoffert
Good enough. I'm done. I just I'm done. It's done. Nothing else needs to be.

01;06;19;13 - 01;06;21;22
Joshua Hoffert
Done, right?

01;06;21;24 - 01;06;29;08
Joshua Hoffert
I've got it covered up, so we're good to go. And then a few minutes later, if I pull the towel off.

01;06;29;10 - 01;06;30;07
Joshua Hoffert
Oh.

01;06;30;09 - 01;06;32;21
Joshua Hoffert
There goes blood everywhere.

01;06;32;24 - 01;06;34;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Yes.

01;06;34;04 - 01;06;45;10
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, wait, I'm not healed. Let me put the towel back on there. All right. This is this is the the analogy is this is the person who says the sinner's prayer 16 times over trying to assure themselves of salvation.

01;06;45;12 - 01;06;51;05
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, good. Good. Good. The wound is still there. Yeah. It didn't go away.

01;06;51;07 - 01;06;53;25
Joshua Hoffert
You put the towel on it. Good job.

01;06;53;27 - 01;06;57;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right. But the wound didn't go away. Okay.

01;06;57;05 - 01;07;03;17
Joshua Hoffert
Well, imagine that I didn't go to the. You know, I went to the hospital. The doctor looked at it, stitched it up two layers of stitches, about 30 stitches.

01;07;03;20 - 01;07;05;06
Joshua Hoffert
Wow. But.

01;07;05;06 - 01;07;18;21
Joshua Hoffert
Imagine I just go, okay, you know, the IV, the blood is clotted, and I've taken the thing off and look at I'm healed right next day I'm at school trying to write breaks. Right open starts bleeding everywhere, right?

01;07;18;24 - 01;07;19;05
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, my.

01;07;19;05 - 01;07;22;22
Joshua Hoffert
God, I was I thought I was healed. I got to say the prayer again. Let me get that towel again.

01;07;22;22 - 01;07;24;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;07;24;19 - 01;07;27;13
Joshua Hoffert
Or maybe a few years down the road, I never got the stitches.

01;07;27;13 - 01;07;30;05
Joshua Hoffert
And it's just this, you know, it.

01;07;30;06 - 01;07;54;15
Joshua Hoffert
Never quite healed perfectly. You can see a very faint scar where it happened. Right? But if I hadn't got the stitches, it would be, you know, it would be a open part of my arm right there that would have eventually crusted over right. And so it always be there. My point is, there was a proper way of dealing with the wound that required the kind of treatment that only someone else can give.

01;07;54;15 - 01;07;55;16
Joshua Hoffert
A doctor can give.

01;07;55;20 - 01;07;56;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;07;56;03 - 01;08;12;18
Joshua Hoffert
Requires time and healing and everything. And if I don't engage in that at any, at any stretch of the point, and I think the journey's over when it's just begun, I've totally missed the point of the whole process of healing life. Is that journey. Christianity is that journey.

01;08;12;18 - 01;08;13;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Just because.

01;08;13;26 - 01;08;15;02
Joshua Hoffert
You put the towel on the.

01;08;15;02 - 01;08;15;25
Joshua Hoffert
Wound.

01;08;15;28 - 01;08;32;15
Joshua Hoffert
Doesn't mean the wound is healed, right? Just because it's a prayer of becoming. Exactly. And that your whole life is that process of becoming healed, and your whole life is every single stitch. Your whole life is, to get a whole bunch.

01;08;32;15 - 01;08;33;03
Joshua Hoffert
Of.

01;08;33;06 - 01;08;52;05
Joshua Hoffert
Novocain shots all around, right? So they could do the. So there was a whole process, right? That one layer of stitches to pull it together, another layer of stitches eventually had to go back and get it cut out. The get the stitches, you know, removed. It's like one thing after another leads to another, leads to another, and eventually, okay, well, now I have.

01;08;52;07 - 01;08;52;29
Joshua Hoffert
A.

01;08;53;02 - 01;08;58;28
Joshua Hoffert
A scar that you can barely see, but it's still there, right? Because I let the process happen.

01;08;59;01 - 01;09;03;07
Murray Dueck
And that brings up the quote of Max. Was it Maximus?

01;09;03;08 - 01;09;05;00
Joshua Hoffert
Maximus confessor? Maximus, in.

01;09;05;01 - 01;09;07;12
Murray Dueck
Which we will start next week with that part.

01;09;07;13 - 01;09;08;12
Joshua Hoffert
When I start next week.

01;09;08;12 - 01;09;10;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right there. That's right, that's right.

01;09;10;11 - 01;09;12;05
Murray Dueck
That explains that quote very well. Yeah.

01;09;12;05 - 01;09;13;03
Joshua Hoffert
So,

01;09;13;05 - 01;09;17;06
Joshua Hoffert
As as always, Murray, it's always a pleasure, a pleasure, pressure.

01;09;17;09 - 01;09;18;14
Joshua Hoffert
Pleasure.

01;09;18;16 - 01;09;19;29
Murray Dueck
People say that a lot to me. I don't know.

01;09;19;29 - 01;09;21;07
Joshua Hoffert
What,

01;09;21;10 - 01;09;23;10
Joshua Hoffert
Always a pleasure to spend time with you.

01;09;23;10 - 01;09;24;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You too, my friend.

01;09;24;19 - 01;09;31;27
Joshua Hoffert
And, everybody else. That's right. Thanks, everybody, for all the other messages we receive, the feedback we get.

01;09;31;27 - 01;09;33;11
Joshua Hoffert
And, so.

01;09;33;13 - 01;09;40;06
Joshua Hoffert
Happy that you're along on the journey with us. And so, I guess we'll say, until next time, everyone.

01;09;40;08 - 01;09;41;00
Joshua Hoffert

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Joshua Hoffert

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Murray Dueck

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